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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.1.18a  (Read 506481 times)

SainnQ

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Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
« Reply #255 on: May 26, 2017, 05:22:05 PM »

Soren since I'm an asshat who doesn't rightly care for faction balance, especially with things like Knights Templar

I've nothing really wrong with the balance, Fighters being OP I believe is more a result of how strong the re-work by Alex was.

OP on the ships overall seems starved is since you can no longer add 30% more OP via skills and it's been nerfed down to only 10%. But I like a -alot- of hullmod flexibility instead of trying to min-max weaponry loadouts. I've always felt the variety of effective and worthwhile low OP weaponry was incredibly sparse.

I've another unrelated question granted.

Spoiler
I modified fighter wing sizes, and maybe tweaked ammunition amounts for missiles along with increasing damage for a couple weapons.

Would you know why I can no longer get anywhere near Nikolaev? The error is below. It's fine if you've no interest in trouble shooting it.
[close]


Spoiler
623849 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 10
java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 10
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.fleet.CampaignFleetMemberView.<init>(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.fleet.CampaignFleetView.createItemView(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.fleet.CampaignFleetView.createItemView(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.util.CollectionView.sync(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.fleet.CampaignFleetView.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.fleet.CampaignFleet.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.BaseLocation.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.StarSystem.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignState.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.BaseGameState.traverse(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
[close]
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
« Reply #256 on: May 26, 2017, 05:25:12 PM »

    I call it like I see it Soren...Ive had DME installed for a couple weeks now, so its not like I just started using it last night. Spelling things out seems overboard anyway. Hey bud, its your mod. Dont get angry over an opinion.

    If you can't be bothered to spell, punctuate, and give specific feedback that names specific issues with specific ships, weapons, and fighter wings, I can't be bothered to pretend you're giving constructive feedback. C'est la vie, we get out of this what we put into it. You got - mild contempt.

    Some balance feedback - not at all comprehensive, just things I ran into on my most recent play through the game.  (And I'd like to note that DME is overall pretty good about vanilla balance... which just makes the places where it doesn't quite fit stand out, of course.)
    • The Zelonograd's deployment cost is too high; I can't justify choosing to deploy it over a Legion or an Onslaught.
      • Suggestion: reduce deployment cost to 40.
    • The Zelonograd's ship system AI is wonky; I've seen it under AI control use its fighter recall... while no fighters were actually outside the bay.
      • Suggestion: AI is a pain, I've got no advice here.
    • The Chamois mining rig is overpowered in a couple of ways.  First, it brings all the benefits of a Salvage Rig, costing only one supply more per month in maintenance, but with vastly higher cargo, crew, and fuel capacities.  Second, it brings a full fighter bay onto the battlefield for a mere four supplies per deployment.
      • Suggestion: Replace the Salvage Gantry hull mod with a custom mod that provides less than the Salvage Rig's +25% salvage - I could see maybe +15%?  And either increase the deployment point cost to 5, or replace the fully-featured fighter bay with a built-in Converted Hangar hull mod.
    • DME's energy PD options are all slightly better than vanilla ones of similar OP costs.  
      • Suggestion: Do nothing.  Specifically, leave their flux costs alone when the 8.1 nerf to energy PD costs goes through, making them (comparatively) flux-hungry.
    • DME's small ballistic PD options all look - at least on paper - to be better than vanilla ones of similar OP costs.  I have not, however, done extensive testing here, and it's possible there's some balancing feature I'm overlooking.  
      • Suggestion: Something worth looking at, but I've no particular recommendation right now.
    • The Horn Attack Gun is just plain better than the Light Assault Gun - and that's even if I completely ignore the "unstable rounds" bit in the description.  Yes, yes, the LAG has 50% higher listed DPS, but the Horn is about twice as good at breaking armor, has a longer range, and a lower flux cost.  I don't take HE weapons for their DPS potential; I have other weapon mounts for that.  I take them for breaking armor.  
      • Suggestion: Increase the flux cost by a third & increase the ordnance point cost to 5 or maybe 6.

    See, this is some high-quality feedback that I can directly translate into better balance. A lot of this is just crap I overlooked and have now rectified (the suggested Chamois changes, in particular, were spot on - I'd made about half of them by the time I saw the post). Name issues and suggest solutions. If the issues are real and you make smart, specific suggestions, bam, it ends up in the changelog that day.

    (Not touching Zelenograd supply costs for a very simple reason; survey capital. You pay a little extra for a lot of capability.)

    I've another unrelated question granted.

    Spoiler
    I modified fighter wing sizes, and maybe tweaked ammunition amounts for missiles along with increasing damage for a couple weapons.

    Would you know why I can no longer get anywhere near Nikolaev? The error is below. It's fine if you've no interest in trouble shooting it.
    [close]

    Sorry, can't help you with an issue you likely caused yourself. Just as a general rule, I don't want to set a precedent of debugging homebrew alterations to my mod for people, but also, I can't do anything to it if I haven't got your version of the mod to look at.

    So, chalk it up as 'I guess I shouldn't do that' and move on?
    « Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 05:37:30 PM by Soren »
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    SainnQ

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #257 on: May 26, 2017, 05:33:17 PM »

    B-but I need aesthetic and proper fighter wings.
     ;D
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    Hussar

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #258 on: May 26, 2017, 05:53:48 PM »

    A question about the Lodestar and Itano AMM-6 launcher. The warship have 2 small missile mounts, one on the front and the +/- 270 arc one lil behind it before the main medium slot. I have noticed that AMM-6 launcher there doesn't turn if mounted on that slot. Is it a conscious aesthetic decision or a bug? I mean, I'm fine if you designed it to be so, cuz it looks good and doesn't really affect missiles too much. I have simply noticed that different launchers do turn in that slot (including guided, ie magicboxes as that's what I've been buying/stealing wherever I've found them to supplement PD's on some ships) and thought I'll ask about it.
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    Harmful Mechanic

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #259 on: May 26, 2017, 05:55:41 PM »

    It's intentional that they don't turn. The missiles are agile enough that they don't need to.
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    Hussar

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #260 on: May 26, 2017, 06:05:08 PM »

    Cool. I was actually thinking it has to be intentional since AMM-6 there looks cool locked in that position - hence the question. Thanks for quick answer.

    Spoiler
    Also yep, they're super agile :D
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    Wyvern

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #261 on: May 26, 2017, 06:17:30 PM »

    (Not touching Zelenograd supply costs for a very simple reason; survey capital. You pay a little extra for a lot of capability.)
    To be clear, I'm not suggesting you change its supplies/month general maintenance cost - in fact, that could probably stand to be increased to 50 or even 60.  But the deployment cost is, simply put, higher than it's actually worth in combat; if I have a Zelonograd and a Legion, for example, (as my current fleet does), the Zelonograd only gets deployed if the Legion's gotten itself worn down to dangerous CR levels - or if I'm taking on a fully operational [REDACTED] battlestation and need all hands on deck.  Neither of these events is common.

    I'd also suggest reducing the CR recovery rate for the Zelonograd; five days to get back to full CR is normal for a dedicated capital-scale warship, but that's a place where (like its 20% CR cost per deployment) it'd make sense for its multi-purpose nature to have some drawbacks.
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    Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

    Harmful Mechanic

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #262 on: May 26, 2017, 06:28:57 PM »

    Ah. Hmm, I rather like that, actually, you've convinced me.
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    Histidine

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #263 on: May 26, 2017, 06:36:32 PM »

    @SainnQ: The bug occurs in SS rendering code and it sounds from the description that the changes you made shouldn't cause it, so may as well post in the Bug Reports & Support (modded) subforum for Alex to look at.
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    Drone_Fragger

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #264 on: May 27, 2017, 01:27:35 PM »

    I would possibly consider doing a balance pass against some of the fighters now that they're a ship system rather than their own ship? The aigrette space superiority fighter and the mystere fighter bomber seems particularly strong to the point that carriers of them can demolish anything, and the spirale heavy figher possibly needs a bit of tweaking too.

    The aigrette particularly might need a it look at since it's main weapon (the autolaser cluster) appears to be the same as the ship version, so does 333 energy dps which is slightly absurd given that the closest stock fighter to that is the spark interceptor (which is getting horribly nerfed next patch because it was brokenly overpowered en masse) and the Xyphos heavy fighter, which costs 5 OP more and additionally is incapable of operating independently of a ship. Maybe replace the autolaser cluster with something not quite as heavy on the DPS and up it's OP cost a bit? I would suggest maybe a special (Fighter only) version of the blaze gun and removing one of the pulser laser clusters? That would fit as an anti-fighter space superiority fighter but not quite as capable of completely destroying destroyers on it's own.

    The main concern with the mystere seems to be more that it does pretty hefty amounts of mixed damage (which makes sense, fighter bomber after all) but it seems to be quite capable of killing basically anything because the voltiger missle tubes do a hell of a lot of kinetic damage (250x2, I believe) and so they force ships to drop their shields rapidly which results in them getting torn up by the shockbeams. Once the armour is gone the missles then do quite a lot of DPS so they tend to shred hull pretty quickly as well. Maybe reduce the ammo or number of tubes on the Mystere (so that it only has like 2 salvos before it has to re-arm, or can only fire off single missles at a time) so that it can't shoot rockets at the enemy ships forever until they're forced to take hull damage. Currently 2 or 3 wings of them can handily take on a cruiser without any real issues, even one like the Kormaran which is pretty set-up to deal with fighters due to its plethora of small hardpoints for anti-fighter weaponry.

    The Spirale maybe just needs one of the linear chainguns removing or increasing the OP cost? The linear chainguns do an ungodly amount of kinetic damage (320dps per fighter, I believe) to the point that a single fighter wing is quite capable of maxing the flux on a cruiser in a few seconds.

    Feel free to completely ignore me here, I tend to stress the heck out about mods not being relatively stock friendly, but at the same time I have no real modding experience and no real analysis of the game other than just playing simulations and comparing loadouts.

    Other that that though, this seems like an extremely well balanced and well made mod! Keep up the good work!
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    Harmful Mechanic

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #265 on: May 27, 2017, 01:34:23 PM »

    All the stuff you've mentioned got a pass well before this discussion started up.

    (You're wrong about the Mystère and Aigrette, BTW; they have custom fighter versions of their weapons with lower damage values. And the Aigrette has an identical OP value to the Xyphos.)

    I've had conflicting reports on the power of the Mystère. Right now I've got the ammo for the missile tubes at 3, which seems just fine.

    Spirale lost 110 DPS and the fighter AMM system has a longer reload time (also nerfing the Harridan, which has had its main weapon tweaked as well; it spawns fewer EMP arcs per hit.)

    I don't think this fixes everything, but things feel pretty good right now. Thanks for the feedback!
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    Takion Kasukedo

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #266 on: May 28, 2017, 03:05:48 AM »

    Could you have a look at the Multi-Beamer Node PD weapons?

    (They still do not shoot at drones or fighters/bombers)

    I am using 9.5a, unless there is a new patch out that I cannot find, as this seems to be the latest.
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    SainnQ

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #267 on: May 28, 2017, 04:49:29 AM »

    Could you have a look at the Multi-Beamer Node PD weapons?

    (They still do not shoot at drones or fighters/bombers)

    I am using 9.5a, unless there is a new patch out that I cannot find, as this seems to be the latest.

    I think he's holding off on another patch until either content is finished, or a new build of star is released.

    Whichever comes first.

    It's one of the reasons Blackrock Drive Yards isn't updated too, he's been rebalancing things, and adding a bunch of new content
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    Harmful Mechanic

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #268 on: May 28, 2017, 10:36:43 AM »

    Could you have a look at the Multi-Beamer Node PD weapons?

    (They still do not shoot at drones or fighters/bombers)

    I am using 9.5a, unless there is a new patch out that I cannot find, as this seems to be the latest.

    A) This is intended behavior for the mod to date, I explained why. You either didn't read or didn't understand my explanation.
    B) If it's so diarrheally urgent that you can't hold it until the next update, it's a very simple fix: go into weapon_data.csv and delete the hint 'PD_ONLY'. That's all you need to do.
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    Takion Kasukedo

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #269 on: May 28, 2017, 11:44:21 AM »

    Could you have a look at the Multi-Beamer Node PD weapons?

    (They still do not shoot at drones or fighters/bombers)

    I am using 9.5a, unless there is a new patch out that I cannot find, as this seems to be the latest.

    A) This is intended behavior for the mod to date, I explained why. You either didn't read or didn't understand my explanation.
    B) If it's so diarrheally urgent that you can't hold it until the next update, it's a very simple fix: go into weapon_data.csv and delete the hint 'PD_ONLY'. That's all you need to do.

    Oh I see, i'll have to look at the post again (apologies for my ineptitude)
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