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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.1.18a  (Read 506471 times)

Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
« Reply #240 on: May 21, 2017, 02:20:26 PM »

Can you teach me how to draw weapons?

"To make apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe."

Anyone can be taught anything - the question is where I'd find the time. If you want to teach yourself, though, I recommend you start with pen-and-paper thumbnails. Break down the task into discrete steps, use visual references, iterate until you like the results.

The Multi-Node PD lasers on the Shalaika don't fire on drones, strangely... not sure if it's just drones but... it's worth looking into.

Oh, and they're on Autofire as well

That's the PD_ONLY tag. It's removed in the latest version.
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
« Reply #241 on: May 22, 2017, 04:43:02 PM »

I'm not sure if this is a vanilla bug or something you can fix (as I haven't looked into the details yet), but I ran into an odd situation the other day where a Kormoran and some destroyer were competing over a capture objective; when the Kormoran activated its system, it was faster, and the capture task got re-assigned to it; when the system shut off, the destroyer was faster and the capture task reverted to it; they oscillated back and forth a few times before I decided that was silly and manually assigned the capture objective to my destroyer.

(Also, as an aside, I do want to compliment the mod in general; DME is definitely one of my favorite factions, and my current game uses a number of their ships in my fleet - I got some lucky salvage results off a DME deserter bounty.  Didn't get their goose, though.)
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grinningsphinx

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Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
« Reply #242 on: May 25, 2017, 11:50:25 PM »

The fighters are way to strong...like..way to strong. Also, the ships that spit out drones need a limit on the drones or increasing replacement time like fighters.


But yeah, the fighters have to go sir.
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Hussar

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Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
« Reply #243 on: May 26, 2017, 04:27:28 AM »

But yeah, the fighters have to go sir.

But about which ones you talk specifically? Besides how anything can beat 0 OP talons? :P

Being honest, I would rise maybe OP's for Harridan's and Agriggete's rather than nerf them. They're rare, costly and only 2 per wing. Maybe raise replacement times as well, but uh. In case of rising OP's, DME carriers are little short on them already.

Speaking of carriers Soren - have you thought about adding Operation Center to Mindanao? It is, after all a "command carrier".


Edit: And oh btw, is there a reason why Lodestars are even rarer than Vespers and Starsylphs? :o
Edit2: I did of course instantly found 3 across few markets, okay. I guess it's my luck then XD
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 09:09:12 AM by Hussar »
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SainnQ

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Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
« Reply #244 on: May 26, 2017, 06:23:30 AM »

The fighters are way to strong...like..way to strong. Also, the ships that spit out drones need a limit on the drones or increasing replacement time like fighters.


But yeah, the fighters have to go sir.


how about you provide some specific construction criticism

Instead of

NERF NAO.  >:(
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Wyvern

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Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
« Reply #245 on: May 26, 2017, 09:06:10 AM »

Some balance feedback - not at all comprehensive, just things I ran into on my most recent play through the game.  (And I'd like to note that DME is overall pretty good about vanilla balance... which just makes the places where it doesn't quite fit stand out, of course.)
  • The Zelonograd's deployment cost is too high; I can't justify choosing to deploy it over a Legion or an Onslaught.
    • Suggestion: reduce deployment cost to 40.
  • The Zelonograd's ship system AI is wonky; I've seen it under AI control use its fighter recall... while no fighters were actually outside the bay.
    • Suggestion: AI is a pain, I've got no advice here.
  • The Chamois mining rig is overpowered in a couple of ways.  First, it brings all the benefits of a Salvage Rig, costing only one supply more per month in maintenance, but with vastly higher cargo, crew, and fuel capacities.  Second, it brings a full fighter bay onto the battlefield for a mere four supplies per deployment.
    • Suggestion: Replace the Salvage Gantry hull mod with a custom mod that provides less than the Salvage Rig's +25% salvage - I could see maybe +15%?  And either increase the deployment point cost to 5, or replace the fully-featured fighter bay with a built-in Converted Hangar hull mod.
  • DME's energy PD options are all slightly better than vanilla ones of similar OP costs. 
    • Suggestion: Do nothing.  Specifically, leave their flux costs alone when the 8.1 nerf to energy PD costs goes through, making them (comparatively) flux-hungry.
  • DME's small ballistic PD options all look - at least on paper - to be better than vanilla ones of similar OP costs.  I have not, however, done extensive testing here, and it's possible there's some balancing feature I'm overlooking. 
    • Suggestion: Something worth looking at, but I've no particular recommendation right now.
  • The Horn Attack Gun is just plain better than the Light Assault Gun - and that's even if I completely ignore the "unstable rounds" bit in the description.  Yes, yes, the LAG has 50% higher listed DPS, but the Horn is about twice as good at breaking armor, has a longer range, and a lower flux cost.  I don't take HE weapons for their DPS potential; I have other weapon mounts for that.  I take them for breaking armor. 
    • Suggestion: Increase the flux cost by a third & increase the ordnance point cost to 5 or maybe 6.
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Hussar

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Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
« Reply #246 on: May 26, 2017, 09:08:19 AM »

    The fighters are way to strong...like..way to strong. Also, the ships that spit out drones need a limit on the drones or increasing replacement time like fighters.


    But yeah, the fighters have to go sir.


    how about you provide some specific construction criticism

    Instead of

    NERF NAO.  >:(

    ^I agree.

    • The Chamois mining rig is overpowered in a couple of ways.  First, it brings all the benefits of a Salvage Rig, costing only one supply more per month in maintenance, but with vastly higher cargo, crew, and fuel capacities.  Second, it brings a full fighter bay onto the battlefield for a mere four supplies per deployment.
      • Suggestion: Replace the Salvage Gantry hull mod with a custom mod that provides less than the Salvage Rig's +25% salvage - I could see maybe +15%?  And either increase the deployment point cost to 5, or replace the fully-featured fighter bay with a built-in Converted Hangar hull mod.

    I hardly can agree. The salvage gantry is the only reason to keep that ship in your fleet, since despite impressive 'on-paper' stats it can hardly hold it's own in a fight really. Yeah, sure in comparison to salvage rig its VASTLY OP and more survivable but eh. 2 Kite's have a good chance to beat this thing honestly. It's not that good really fight-wise, so if removed +25 salvage or either fuel/cargo capacity it will make this ship more than useless to have in a fleet then. Tone down salvage bonus by mere 5% and it's more beneficial instantly to get 2 shepherds in it's place as they bring in also: better speed & survivability (plus are more useful in combat with salamander's and drones) as well as surveying equipment and salvage gantries of their own. You could argue that in bigger fleets there would be still space for Chamois instead of 2 shepherds - in bigger fleets you get a Baikal cruiser with even bigger salvage bonus instead :O

    In other words... I would say that Chamois in my opinion is in a really fine place as it is now. Not to mention it is extremely rare, I only saw 2 on markets across few playthroughs so far.



    • DME's small ballistic PD options all look - at least on paper - to be better than vanilla ones of similar OP costs.  I have not, however, done extensive testing here, and it's possible there's some balancing feature I'm overlooking. 
      • Suggestion: Something worth looking at, but I've no particular recommendation right now.
    While I did. And not really. The only GREAT balistic PD is the Rakker flachette gun, with 500 range and fragmentation rounds - but it's extremely rare. I mean - EXTREMELY rare.
    The other options, the linear mg's, single, double or quad... Huh. Not really good in my opinion. They would be great if they were firing fragmentation, but they do kinetic damage and they have trouble stoping a single pilum fast enough (only 350 range except for quad with 450 but that's medium mount not small) not to mention a salvo - or the usual SPAM of missiles.

    So for a change I'd would say that my suggestion would be to give those guns a little more range and ROF to compensate.
    « Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 09:31:32 AM by Hussar »
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    grinningsphinx

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #247 on: May 26, 2017, 09:28:41 AM »

    Thank you for the response Soren, glad to see the wings being dialed back.

    To the other mad fanbois, Okay... ::)

    Hows about: All the fighters from DM need to be dialed back into the realm of reasonableness. Reavers are what, 25? even they fare poorly vs DME wings.  Also, most ships that spit out drones have a fairly long cool down on them, or a limited supply. The drone ships in DME spit them out in seconds after the drone is destroyed.

    I downloaded DME under the assumption it was vanilla friendly after asking in discord...and its really not.  10 point ships have difficulty with the 5 point "armed transport".  Nearly everything DME has seems to be a little bit better then anything offered in vanilla. A few things here an there are fine, but does it really need to be better across the board for similar OP costs?

    The fighters are where its most notable though. I spent 2 hours last night running  mora's against DME carriers, 70 CR baseline, no captains.....DME fighters shred everything there is to shred in vanilla.



    Those rakker flechette guns, while they may be the best of the best of DME PD,  cant shoot down the Traceur LRMS, not even with 360 degree turrets and advanced turret gyros. A single LR PD, as they are currently, cant blow one up either.

    Overpowered.



    « Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 09:40:42 AM by grinningsphinx »
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    Hussar

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #248 on: May 26, 2017, 09:47:03 AM »

    DME is not boss faction by any stretch. But if you prefer templars then well okay. Btw have u tried Diable? Those are some boss fighters, so in my opinion if anything needs tweaking is OP changes and bigger replacement times for DME ones. That is, of course - my own opinion. So you have yours, so does the Soren and we'll see what will transpire upon 8.1 changes to the fighters across the board. But I have commanded DME wings just recently against condors and herons and yeah, they can put up a fight - but they were dying just an easy. They're supposed to be stronger than average fighter, hence why there's 2 per wing for Harridans and Agriggete's... They just do lil better over enemy ships than others, but this hardly makes DME a boss faction (vel 5 pt armed transport... which is cruiser sized btw, still not really useful in a fight). In general DME is well tuned in vanilla, to add more many of their weapons fit in well with vanilla & vanilla-styled ships.
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    Wyvern

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #249 on: May 26, 2017, 10:05:51 AM »

    • DME's small ballistic PD options all look - at least on paper - to be better than vanilla ones of similar OP costs.  I have not, however, done extensive testing here, and it's possible there's some balancing feature I'm overlooking.  
      • Suggestion: Something worth looking at, but I've no particular recommendation right now.
    While I did. And not really. The only GREAT balistic PD is the Rakker flachette gun, with 500 range and fragmentation rounds - but it's extremely rare. I mean - EXTREMELY rare.
    The other options, the linear mg's, single, double or quad... Huh. Not really good in my opinion. They would be great if they were firing fragmentation, but they do kinetic damage and they have trouble stoping a single pilum fast enough (only 350 range except for quad with 450 but that's medium mount not small) not to mention a salvo - or the usual SPAM of missiles.

    So for a change I'd would say that my suggestion would be to give those guns a little more range and ROF to compensate.
    Umm... I did say "in comparison to vanilla options", right?  And vanilla machine guns also have trouble shooting down missiles, but are great as knife-fighting shield-breakers for SO ships - and the DME variants are just a little bit better at that, mostly due to longer range.

    A single LR PD, as they are currently, cant blow one up either.

    Overpowered.
    In my experience, a single LR PD can't (reliably) blow up anything on its own except maybe a swarmer.  You need at least two of them before they become even vaguely acceptable PD.  And even then a vanilla salamander can often swing past faster than they can track.  If you want energy PD that actually shoots things down on its own, try a Burst PD.

    As for the DME fighters, well, I haven't really been finding them to be OP... but then, I've been comparing them to vanilla Spark and Lux wings, both of which are being nerfed in 0.8.1.  So make of that what you will.
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    Wyvern

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #250 on: May 26, 2017, 10:32:11 AM »

    Thought: Increase flux costs of DME small ballistic PD?  Could work - vanilla option would then be shorter range but negligible flux, DME option with longer range but flux costs that aren't completely trivial, OP costs could remain about the same.  Mirrors my suggestion for energy PD, too.
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    Hussar

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #251 on: May 26, 2017, 11:18:49 AM »

    Umm... I did say "in comparison to vanilla options", right?  And vanilla machine guns also have trouble shooting down missiles, but are great as knife-fighting shield-breakers for SO ships - and the DME variants are just a little bit better at that, mostly due to longer range.
    Not vulcans (because they do fragmentation and have 1200 rof). I would also argue that dual mg's might be a bit more reliable as they fire faster. In comparison the linear chainguns are somewhat underwhelming. Same goes for single mg & chaingun comparison. The range difference is mostly neglegible when they start landing hits between 150-200 su and at this point vanilla have bigger rof making it tad bit more realible in my experience with them so far.
    « Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 11:21:59 AM by Hussar »
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    Wyvern

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #252 on: May 26, 2017, 11:32:41 AM »

    Comparison to vanilla options:
    Raker Flechette Gun: Comparable to vulcan cannon.  DME option is at least as effective at shooting down missiles in actual practice, and has longer range.
    Linear chainguns: Comparable to machine guns.  Neither provides suitable PD - at least not on a single weapon basis - but the DME option is better as a knife-fighting weapon for SO builds.

    When you compare linear chainguns to vulcans and look solely at their ability to shoot down missiles, that's an apples to oranges sort of comparison; of course the vulcan is better at shooting down missiles.  A kinetic-damage weapon that matched the vulcan's anti-missile ability would need to be something like 14 OP, if not more, simply because of how fast it would saw through shields.  Consider: to get its anti-missile capability, the vulcan has to have 500 DPS, which is only sane for a small weapon because it's fragmentation type damage.  For kinetic damage, even the heavy machine gun - a medium ballistic weapon - is only 320 DPS; to find a weapon that does more kinetic damage than the vulcan does fragmentation, we have to go all the way to the storm needler, a large ballistic weapon that puts out 750 DPS and costs 28 OP.
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    Harmful Mechanic

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #253 on: May 26, 2017, 12:08:16 PM »

    I like that the request for clarification still didn't bring us that most precious gift; specific, meaningful feedback with actionable suggestions. Looking over GS' post history, I see a lot of reasons to ignore him in favor of people who can describe problems. I'd appreciate it if you guys also ignored him.

    (Some refit times have gone up; fine-grained fighter balance is going to be an ongoing process well into the life of 0.8.1, I can tell.)

    To everyone else: I'm probably going to redo the Chamois radically as it is, that ship was designed around Nexerelin's mining mechanic. It's currently way out of place; deployment cost is going up, cargo, etc is getting slashed. Should probably replace the modular bay with a built-in wing.

    Buzz Gun: I'm open to cutting DPS or accuracy or both slightly.
    LCGs: Yeah, flux costs going up slightly.
    Horn: yeah, I think it's funny how little DPS matters on HE guns. I may as well bump it up to 5OP, although I still think 4OP is about right.  
    « Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 12:51:27 PM by Soren »
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    grinningsphinx

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    Re: [0.8a] Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering v.0.9.5a
    « Reply #254 on: May 26, 2017, 01:54:47 PM »

    • DME's small ballistic PD options all look - at least on paper - to be better than vanilla ones of similar OP costs.  I have not, however, done extensive testing here, and it's possible there's some balancing feature I'm overlooking.  
      • Suggestion: Something worth looking at, but I've no particular recommendation right now.
    While I did. And not really. The only GREAT balistic PD is the Rakker flachette gun, with 500 range and fragmentation rounds - but it's extremely rare. I mean - EXTREMELY rare.
    The other options, the linear mg's, single, double or quad... Huh. Not really good in my opinion. They would be great if they were firing fragmentation, but they do kinetic damage and they have trouble stoping a single pilum fast enough (only 350 range except for quad with 450 but that's medium mount not small) not to mention a salvo - or the usual SPAM of missiles.

    So for a change I'd would say that my suggestion would be to give those guns a little more range and ROF to compensate.
    Umm... I did say "in comparison to vanilla options", right?  And vanilla machine guns also have trouble shooting down missiles, but are great as knife-fighting shield-breakers for SO ships - and the DME variants are just a little bit better at that, mostly due to longer range.

    A single LR PD, as they are currently, cant blow one up either.

    Overpowered.
    In my experience, a single LR PD can't (reliably) blow up anything on its own except maybe a swarmer.  You need at least two of them before they become even vaguely acceptable PD.  And even then a vanilla salamander can often swing past faster than they can track.  If you want energy PD that actually shoots things down on its own, try a Burst PD.

    As for the DME fighters, well, I haven't really been finding them to be OP... but then, I've been comparing them to vanilla Spark and Lux wings, both of which are being nerfed in 0.8.1.  So make of that what you will.

    Fighters are being slightly retooled in 8.1 yeah, but some are getting buffs as well(thunder).   LRPD will also have a damage increase so thats a good thing.


    I call it like I see it Soren...Ive had DME installed for a couple weeks now, so its not like I just started using it last night. Spelling things out seems overboard anyway. Hey bud, its your mod. Dont get angry over an opinion.
    « Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 02:02:20 PM by grinningsphinx »
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