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[Aeson]

Oh, glad you brought this up! Changed it so that it can't be installed on phase ships; was an oversight that it didn't already work that way.

Somewhat related to this, can ships that already have hangars be given the Converted Hangar hullmod? If they can be given it, how will it affect preexisting flight decks?

It's cool, freighters getting converted to support fighters makes sense to me! It *shouldn't* hurt them very much logistically

I would suggest that putting a launch bay and hangar on a space ship is not like slapping a flight deck on an ocean-going vessel.

Same reason why Daggers getting Hammers makes sense balance-wise, but doesn't lore-wise.

I'd honestly rather there be a Mining Pod or Piranha conversion to use Hammers, if Hammers keep their "mining charge slapped on a rocket" description. Kind of wonder if 3 Daggers carrying an Atropos each wouldn't step too much on the Trident wingpair's toes.

[Megas]

Somewhat related to this, can ships that already have hangars be given the Converted Hangar hullmod?

No.

[Dri]

Isn't it obvious? The Daggers-with-Hammers problem could easily be solved with a new class of torpedo! An ENERGY damage type torpedo, obviously! /silliness

[Ghoti]

meh.

There's a kinetic laser beam, why not an energy damage torpedo?

[OOZ662]

I know this game is supposed to be kinda scifi-ish (kinda like Firefly is supposed to be scifi-ish, but is also a Western), but I've never liked the idea of "enforced limited production" things. The other major example I know of is Mass Effect, where the "superguns" that Shepard gets ahold of have some kind of rights-management system in it that means you can't build yourself two more of them and jack up your squad's power immensely. I just cannot be convinced that there isn't some cartel or rogue agency out there (like the one in the second two games) that can pirate and crack that sucker open.

Same with this game. I've never been too friendly with the idea that the carriers in combat literally build fighters from the materials stage (Supplies) before cramming a pilot in and shoving them out the door. My headcanon was thus that the limited number of fighter hulls per engagement referred to how many fighters were "on deck," stored assembled but ready to "unfold and lock the wings," stick a pilot in, arm, and launch. Now we supposedly get these seriously-can't-hack-these-guys chips that we plug into something and again a fighter is plopped out in seconds and shoved out the door.

I know I'm just one person, but my immersion into the canon of the universe would fit so much better, especially for "retrofit" carriers that couldn't feasibly have a whole fighter manufacturing plant crammed into them, if the fighters were sold simply as crated ones instead of magic chips. They're sold in a shipping container all bundled up for "easy" sale and carriage in fleet supply ships, then when loaded on a carrier are assembled during the "downtime" of the fleet traveling around or in dock, then "unfolded" for launch. This also leaves open the plausibility for later developments that someone might open up those crates and do something (Upgrade? Sabotage? Booby trap? Tracking device?) to those fighters before their sale. It's much less super-techy whizbang scifi, but I think much more relatable to the "we're living on the scraps of what high-tech still exists after The Calamity" lore that this game has.

[PCCL]

I agree, but I think the idea of "can't-hack-this" chips are well founded enough in lore for this to be acceptable to me. The conventional fighter idea, while more palatable (imo) in a lore perspective, brings with it its own set of design challenges. Namely the issue of preventing a fighter wing to be wholly committed (If all the fighters are "on deck" to begin with, why aren't we sending them all in?). Allowing the whole wing, reserve and all, to be deployed at once will make fighters quite the balance headache.


A suggestion I have regarding the current implementation of default fighter wings - I think it might fit each individual carrier better to have their own version of default fighters that are otherwise inaccessible (instead of each one, even the astral, using a talon). For example, the wasp can be assigned to the astral, and the gemini and heron can get some type of midline interceptor (possibly adapted somehow from the current PD drones?)

[Alex]

@OOZ662: The way I see it, fighters/replacement parts are manufactured outside of combat. During combat, the carrier crew is at best putting a few parts together, plus fueling up and arming the fighter. Fighter replacements are unlimited because the assumption is the carrier has enough replacements for the battle - or, rather, enough replacements to last until its CR hits 0.

The DRM is more to do with not being able to copy the chip easily, etc. You could also extend it to answer the question of "why not deploy all fighters at once", though that could also be answered with other kinds of hand-waving and techno-babble.

[Ranakastrasz]

Assuming new fighters don't cause Pilot death if they die, I would assume there are a limited number of Remote control consoles or something, or its a practicality limit of some kind.

[Ghoti]

I think it's pretty obvious that if you launch too many fighters then the carrier would run out of inverse Napoleons.

[Ranakastrasz]

I don't understand the reference.

[Deshara]

I always imagined that the DRM stuff isn't actually unbreakable to a sci-fi extent, but requires extremely specialized skill to do so like irl, and that the sector is simply too destabilized for most populations to have access to the kind of depth of information you'd need to be able to self-teach how to break military levels of encryption,
And more importantly I imagine the breaking of DRM to actually be a thing that people do, it's just that with point A in consideration those people's skills would in such extreme demand that they'd be able to generate artificial demand for themselves by generally banding together to refuse to do too much for any particular corporation or government without getting paid such stupid amounts of money that they could actually afford protection from the inevitable danger of kidnapping that that would bring.
In fact that could be a major driver of conflict in the sector, the kidnapping, enslavement and killing of software pirates

[Embolism]

The problem here is that a high-enough value to be really felt by freighters also makes this near-crippling on what destroyers can afford it.

Given that cargo doesn't come into play in combat I don't see making converted hangars cost 90 cargo as being crippling for combat ships. If you want more cargo you'd be adding more dedicated freighters to your fleet (that is after all their only function).

Anyways, my rationale is that the Condor has to sacrifice 180 cargo space for 2 hangar bays, so presumably a lot of internal volume has to be dedicated to fighter support; if not for the hangar bays themselves. I get that converted hangar bays are just converting existing shuttle or whatever bays, but surely there's some expansion and extra equipment involved that will take up more space.

Plus as Gothars said, it makes things more elegant by reducing the need for special rules, e.g. cannot be installed on frigates (except on ones that make sense), cannot be installed on phase ships (except Doom because I dream of Carrier Dooms now and then).

I don't know about this "cargo space for hangar" idea. Alex said the main application of the hangar bay hullmod would be with freighters and civilian ships ('cause it would not be worth giving up a combat ships weapons for it). Seems like for freighters it would be a mayor nerv to have less cargo capacity.

If there's no tradeoff for their primary function, wouldn't converted hangars become almost a no-brainer for all freighters? The way I see it turning your freighters into carriers allows you to deploy them in combat without risking them very much (given their long operating range), which can be a pretty hefty boost to your fleet's offensive power. If you want to hybridise your freighters their ability to fulfill their primary function should suffer.

With Cerberus/Wayfarer it's not so much about hybridising as it is about a total conversion like Tarsus > Condor. Fulfills the (non-existent) niche for a frigate-sized carrier. The alternative is Cerberus/Wayfarer being unable to use converted hangars at all, so...

[Gothars]

Assuming new fighters don't cause Pilot death if they die, I would assume there are a limited number of Remote control consoles or something, or its a practicality limit of some kind.

That would be a good explanation of their limited range. And pilot deaths could be caused by neural feedback surges (assuming fighters are controlled via neural interface). New headcanon accepted!

If there's no tradeoff for their primary function, wouldn't converted hangars become almost a no-brainer for all freighters?

Ah, but isn't there already a no-brainer for them? At the moment all my freighters get engine hullmods, so they can run away as fast as possible. At least with a second worthwile hullmod there would be a choice to make.

I think it is a bit hard to judge this without having a feel for the effectiveness of the hullmod. If your combined freighter force can be turned into the equivalent of an Astral for cheap, more restrictions are needed. But if it's more like a uncoordinated  last ditch defense, a cargo space penalty might make it too  unattractive.

[Andy H.K.]

I wholeheartedly agree with Embolism. If they don't at least cost a portion of the cargo space, I'd rather not have such hullmod at all.

Destroyers/Freighters can launch shuttles, sure. Launching *wings of* "shuttles", refueling/rearming them, not to mention rebuilding and assembly during combat situation? That's a completely different story.

Let's try to answer this question: Can the Tarsus-Condor conversion be performed in deep space? The conversion is so extensive that they shaped differently. If similar operation can be done on other ships by *just adding a hullmod* then the answer would be "Yes, if the fleet is willing to take a hit in CR" I suppose?

[Gothars]

Let's try to answer this question: Can the Tarsus-Condor conversion be performed in deep space? The conversion is so extensive that they shaped differently. If similar operation can be done on other ships by *just adding a hullmod* then the answer would be "Yes, if the fleet is willing to take a hit in CR" I suppose?

The hangar bay hullmod is not really comparable to the proper hangars of a Condor, though. Besides it enabling only one bay instead of the Condor's two, it has these big downsides:
- Cost of 10/15/20 OP
- doubled regeneration time for destroyed fighters
- no fast-refit for returning bombers etc.

If those downsides are enough to not make it the default of every freighter remains to be seen.

Maybe a rival freighter hullmod (besides speed ones) would also improve the situation. Something that improves logitical properties (sensor profile or running cost reduction).