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[Sy]

That would be more fitting for a Cerberus, I believe.

agreed. Hound just really looks too small for any kind of flight deck, imo. but Cerberus with most of its firepower removed could be fitting.

What's also missing from the ship roster is a purpose build destroyer-sized carrier. Maybe something high-tech. I expect many people will want to play as carrier captains now, and at the moment the Condor seems the only real way to get started.

i'm hoping for something like that as well. we don't have any high-tech carrier besides Astral, Gemini will finally become a proper freighter hybrid, and Condor is neither really suitable for carrier flagship play, nor thematically fitting for common use in TT fleets.

Whew, this is now officially the most discussed blog post in Starsector's history! Obviously a lot of people feel pretty damn passionate about those lil' fighters!

wow, you're right. and that's despite splitting off some related discussion regarding ship systems into another thread! O:

[Embolism]

A bit late to this particular party but re: converted hangar hullmod.

There was some concern about it not being thematically fitting on certain ships, e.g. Medusa or Sunder. What if the hullmod also removes cargo space and cannot be installed in ships with less than it uses? Say 90 (because the Condor sacrifices 90 cargo space per hangar compared to the Tarsus). This excludes the Medusa and Sunder from qualifying, as well as a few others. It would also solidify it being primarily meant for civilian ships, as it gives them a tangible tradeoff for their primary function (for freighters anyway).

With this restriction it can also be made available to Frigates, given that only large traders would be able to use them and only by sacrificing almost all their cargo space (essentially making them carrier-conversions, which I think is fine for something like the Cerberus or Wayfarer).

[Megas]

There probably should not be any worry about Medusa or Sunder being carriers.  They need all of their OP to do their primary jobs.  With max OP, they have just enough to get everything they need, although they may not be able to afford all of the luxuries.

[Embolism]

The original concern wasn't about balance, but theme. Same reason why Daggers getting Hammers makes sense balance-wise, but doesn't lore-wise. Medusa and Sunder, being warships designed to dish out firepower while taking none, shouldn't have any room for hangars. And well, internal space happens to be modeled reasonably well by cargo space, so that's a pretty good resource for a hangar hullmod to consume.

Also stops the Harbinger from getting hangars, which may actually be a balance issue (doesn't address the Doom though, but being a cruiser it can afford to be a bit special I guess). And carrier-conversion Cerberus and Wayfarer? Nice bonus.

[Megas]

I do not have a problem with a Medusa with a hangar.  It looks like a big flying saucer that could be jury-rigged to spawn a few child ships.  Mechanically, it would probably really hurt due to the OP sacrificed to make the idea work.  Sunder?  It looks like much of the front half is guns and the bottom half is engines.  I wonder where a hangar could fit?  Then again, the same could be said about Hammerhead, but... Hammerhead had hangar points pre-0.6, and that looks thin enough as to where to fit the hangar and ships.

I probably would not think about too much on where the converted hangar would fit, especially with lore providing sufficient magitech.

P.S.  Phase ships getting hangars.  I wonder how that would work?  More magic?

[Sy]

i like this idea, Embolism. seems fitting both thematically and balance-wise, with some frigates being able to use it, some destroyers not able, and transports having to sacrifice something more relevant than OP.

[Ghoti]

haha, using cargo space for the hanger hullmod is a great idea. Love it.

I brought up the weirdness a of that hanger hullmod before. I stand by the "sized hangers" idea. That way the hanger hullmod allows you attach drones to a ship, but not launch regular fighters. I don't see any thematic issues with attaching point defense drones to a medusa, for example.

I think being able to swap out drone systems would be awesome. For example. Swap point defense drones on the Gemini carrier for a Sensor Drone, and attach two maulers on it. ARTILLERY CARRIER!



*pew pew*

[icepick37]

Bah, came in late and there's too much to read.

I am excited about SO MUCH of this. 

Is it really hard to imagine a jury rigged flight deck? Cut giant hole here, insert crane-y thing there, et voila! Flight deck. You could just stick a big blister on the underside of some of the weirder ships.

[Alex]

Skill floors are much more important to establish, in a complex game, than skill ceilings are to remove.

Another related consideration is AI use. If something is designed so that it's hard to mess up too badly, then it's much easier to write competent AI for it. Bit of a broader point, really.

Not actually sure what you mean here! There's no real benefit to only having 2 out of 6 wings in terms of how quickly they're launched or re-launched. "Burst-launch"?

I mean, if I'm using certain types of Fighters, and they're essentially weapons, I'm going to use them in a big alpha-strike or not at all. 

Basically, the regeneration rate will matter sometimes but there are situations where the goal's going to be saturation.  The regen bar, as described, sounds like it's tied to the number of Fighters we're regenerating to get back up to "full"; if that's the case, then I'm going to want to hoard those fighters for bursts, rather than stream them in.  Because then my regen-bar will be near max and I can follow up as the Wing dies.  Think about torpedo bombers in that situation.

Right, yeah, but leaving some bays empty doesn't tie into this much. It'll only really help *if* you're trickling out fighters rather than waiting for full sets.

Anyhow, I like the rest of what you've said here and I'm really looking forward to this next major update

Silly idea:  Hound Mk. II with built-in hullmods Converted Hangar and Ill-Advised Modifications.  Lose the small turret so that only the medium hardpoint remains.

Think I might've mentioned it earlier, but: given the relative scales of things, and what we've seen of the Hound in particular in illustrations, it carrying any fighters at all doesn't seem very likely.

I could *maybe* see a super-dedicated frigate-sized carrier with 1 bay that'd be on the large side for frigates. Maybe.

What's also missing from the ship roster is a purpose build destroyer-sized carrier. Maybe something high-tech. I expect many people will want to play as carrier captains now, and at the moment the Condor seems the only real way to get started.

Yeah, there are a couple of carrier niches open. There also isn't a dedicated cruiser-sized carrier, either - both the Heron and the Mora are combat-capable, though the Heron a bit less so.

Whew, this is now officially the most discussed blog post in Starsector's history! Obviously a lot of people feel pretty damn passionate about those lil' fighters!

Huh, that's pretty cool! Didn't expect it to cause this much of a stir

A bit late to this particular party but re: converted hangar hullmod.

There was some concern about it not being thematically fitting on certain ships, e.g. Medusa or Sunder. What if the hullmod also removes cargo space and cannot be installed in ships with less than it uses? Say 90 (because the Condor sacrifices 90 cargo space per hangar compared to the Tarsus). This excludes the Medusa and Sunder from qualifying, as well as a few others. It would also solidify it being primarily meant for civilian ships, as it gives them a tangible tradeoff for their primary function (for freighters anyway).

With this restriction it can also be made available to Frigates, given that only large traders would be able to use them and only by sacrificing almost all their cargo space (essentially making them carrier-conversions, which I think is fine for something like the Cerberus or Wayfarer).

The problem here is that a high-enough value to be really felt by freighters also makes this near-crippling on what destroyers can afford it. Finally, thematically, I don't really see the issue with either the Medusa or the Sunder launching some fighters. As I think I might've mentioned earlier, the idea is that all destroyer-and-above ships have hangars already - it's a logistical requirement, given that they don't/can't routinely land on planets. If there's no nod to it on the sprite (which there usually isn't), we can probably assume the hangar access is on the underside

Also stops the Harbinger from getting hangars, which may actually be a balance issue (doesn't address the Doom though, but being a cruiser it can afford to be a bit special I guess). And carrier-conversion Cerberus and Wayfarer? Nice bonus.

Oh, glad you brought this up! Changed it so that it can't be installed on phase ships; was an oversight that it didn't already work that way.

I am excited about SO MUCH of this. 

!!!

[Ghoti]

There was some concern about it not being thematically fitting on certain ships, e.g. Medusa or Sunder. What if the hullmod also removes cargo space and cannot be installed in ships with less than it uses? Say 90 (because the Condor sacrifices 90 cargo space per hangar compared to the Tarsus). ...

The problem here is that a high-enough value to be really felt by freighters also makes this near-crippling on what destroyers can afford it.  ...

It's cool, freighters getting converted to support fighters makes sense to me! It *shouldn't* hurt them very much logistically. crude photoshop (not mine):

Spoiler

[close]

Converting haulers is in starsectors blood!

[Gothars]

I don't know about this "cargo space for hangar" idea. Alex said the main application of the hangar bay hullmod would be with freighters and civilian ships ('cause it would not be worth giving up a combat ships weapons for it). Seems like for freighters it would be a mayor nerv to have less cargo capacity. Especially in the beginning, were Cerberus and Wayfarer are most relevant. I'd rather have an oddball flight-deck-frigate or two.


What I do like about the idea is that it would turn an arbitrary rule (no fighters for frigates) into a more natural requirement that most frigates just happen to be unable to fulfill. But I think the price is too high.

[Megas]

I don't see any thematic issues with attaching point defense drones to a medusa, for example.

Since Wasps will not use crew, they will effectively be PD drones.

[Ghoti]

I don't see any thematic issues with attaching point defense drones to a medusa, for example.

Since Wasps will not use crew, they will effectively be PD drones.

You know, there's not much difference between wasps and borer drones. It's just wasps are faster

[Sy]

You know, there's not much difference between wasps and borer drones. It's just wasps are faster

Wasps are also armed with proper PD Lasers, whereas Borers use Mining Lasers. the later has higher range but much lower dps.

but yeah, functionally they are the same.

[Megas]

Currently, fighters are like ships. Wasps accept commands like capture points, may lose crew when they die, and they eat one of your 25 slots.  Later, fighters will be more like weapons, and Wasps will not have crew.

I get that Wasps and Borers superficially have much in common.