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Author Topic: Fighter Redesign  (Read 148480 times)

Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #360 on: February 21, 2017, 01:27:43 AM »

Actually I mistyped. I meant to say that some or all fighters have a mod that makes all weapons cost ZERO flux to fire
I'm pretty sure that no such hullmod exists. However, many fighters do have more flux dissipation than they can actually use. The Wasp, for example, has 1 PD laser which costs 75 flux/second to fire, and 100 flux dissipation. That might be what you're seeing.

And if such a hullmod exists, I would expect that it wouldn't be put on fighters which are balanced by having poor flux stats.
Here is the link and quote from Alex:
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11293.msg191880#msg191880
Just a side note here: fighters with shields have a built-in mod that makes their weapons not generate flux. Too difficult to balance otherwise.

Thinking of removing the flux bar (and replacing it w/ "shld" for fighters with shields), actually. It's not particularly interesting information for fighters.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #361 on: February 21, 2017, 01:50:47 AM »

Here is the link and quote from Alex:
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11293.msg191880#msg191880
Just a side note here: fighters with shields have a built-in mod that makes their weapons not generate flux. Too difficult to balance otherwise.

Thinking of removing the flux bar (and replacing it w/ "shld" for fighters with shields), actually. It's not particularly interesting information for fighters.
Huh, I was wrong. Thank you for correcting me. That's very interesting and important information that is in no way communicated to the player. I've been assuming the Xyphos is hot garbage because it's flux stats can't possibly support its weaponry, but if its weapons don't cost flux to fire I might give it a try. I would have liked to know that quite a while ago.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 01:58:25 AM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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Tartiflette

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #362 on: February 21, 2017, 04:16:12 AM »

I don't think you guys need to worry about Diable's wanzers balance: There are many ways to reign them in besides OP cost. They could get a short leash range, or a long replacement time, cost CR to be rebuilt, have smaller wings sizes etc.
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Sy

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #363 on: February 21, 2017, 06:58:14 AM »

I would have liked to know that quite a while ago.
that's a v0.8 feature, currently all fighters do generate weapon flux like ships. v0.8 shielded fighers and drones won't.
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Cik

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #364 on: February 21, 2017, 08:01:26 AM »

I don't think you guys need to worry about Diable's wanzers balance: There are many ways to reign them in besides OP cost. They could get a short leash range, or a long replacement time, cost CR to be rebuilt, have smaller wings sizes etc.

i'm not worried about it. even assuming fighters are genuinely good in .8, diable fighters can still be balanced in other ways.

diable has good fighters, but measuring them against most other things still shows them to be ~average (compared to the other fighters in .72 which are pretty much junk) .8 fighters might be slightly better than the modern wanzers, but even a straight wanzer buff probably won't be too far out of line if i'm being honest. diable has other problems; noticeably small shields, flux problems etc.

they're a good faction, but invincible? nah. even after patch if the values are left alone i doubt they will be far out of whack. shouldn't be too bad.
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Sy

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #365 on: February 21, 2017, 08:18:20 AM »

even a straight wanzer buff probably won't be too far out of line if i'm being honest.
with the revamped fighter mechanics, their balance will work very differently. even just keeping Wanzer stats as they currently are would effectively be a huge buff to their usefulness. :P
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Cik

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #366 on: February 21, 2017, 08:26:47 AM »

maybe. if you can close and destroy the carriers it's actually a nerf though; infinite fighters doesn't mean much if they are linked to the carrier and the carrier quickly dies.

it's only useful if you can kite forever and have the decks to amass a sufficient force concentration to quickly destroy the enemy. if it's a trickle, or if the carriers quickly die in combat they're still not very good, assuming the raw +stats they are getting are not absurd.

edit: what i mean is that, comparatively unbound fighters can achieve an advantage in the face of carrier losses; if the enemy plunges for your astral and quickly destroys it, you at least still have it's attendant ~12 wings or whatever. whereas after-patch, you don't AFAIK.

has alex ever said anyway what happens to "homeless" fighters? do they go dead like drones?

maybe not then w/e
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 08:29:01 AM by Cik »
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Cik

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #367 on: February 21, 2017, 08:37:18 AM »

anyway i'm still not sure about infinite fighters. i thought infinite missiles were a mistake too.

fighters aren't infinite in any real sense, it seems like a crutch to lean on instead of just returning to a more strike-oriented battlefield. we really do need some more fighter wings that have more reasonable standoff behavior.
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Megas

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #368 on: February 21, 2017, 08:53:39 AM »

at least in vanilla the fighter gunboat thing is going to be a non-issue. there is not a single carrier that makes a decent gunship, most of them barely even qualify for the title "missile support" and since LRMs are mostly a joke and aren't going to get better that's hardly an issue.

i mean, what are you going to make a gunship? an astral? you plan to close with the enemy in a very vulnerable carrier that will never be able to disengage and primarily relies on spammable missiles (which it can spam from across the map anyway?) there's simply nothing to worry about. probably the "shootiest" is the heron, which has what, a single heavy blaster? tops?
It is possible to tune some dedicated carriers into effective gunships but, admittedly, they cannot beat a dedicated gunship.  If there were advantages to using fighters and/or the carrier had an special campaign advantage, then being the absolute best at brawling would not be a requirement.  Alas, with current game balance, there is no point to fighters by endgame, and competing among the best is a requirement.  Since carriers cannot keep up, they too are useless by endgame, except possibly Gemini due to it being a passable freighter.

Before the days of officers, peak performance for all ships, and 25 ship limit, both Astral and Heron could be made into viable gunboats.  Heron had two useful configurations:  Heavy Blaster and burst PD for assault, or Heavy Mauler and tactical lasers for sniping.  Heron was fast enough to kite and could slowly wear down fleets.  It was basically an extra large Wolf that trades phase skimmer for two flight decks.  As for Astral, just three heavy blasters on the left and no missiles (that cost OP).  Astral played much like a slower, fatter, and squishier Odyssey.  It could not solo things quite as well as Odyssey because Astral was too fat to dodge things Odyssey could, but Astral with max OP could brawl in a pinch.
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Thaago

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #369 on: February 21, 2017, 10:46:17 AM »

I had a playthrough with an Astral as my flagship, though it was strictly suboptimal because skills.

My usual tactic was to let my fighters soften enemies and then launch Reaper barrages with the large missile mounts from long range. As long as I wasn't blindsided it was extremely effective - the large reapers have quite a lot of ammo.
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arcibalde

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #370 on: February 24, 2017, 04:25:08 AM »

From here.
Quote
...Now, some basics. Fighter wings are first-class citizens – they’re members of your fleet, like all your other ships. Early in development, fighters were launched from carriers (being weapons, in a sense), but it became clear this limited fighters to being used only in battles that directly involved carriers, and that just wouldn’t do...
after 6 years we came to full circle  ;D
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Sy

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #371 on: February 24, 2017, 12:02:48 PM »

has alex ever said anyway what happens to "homeless" fighters? do they go dead like drones?
they don't immediately die like drones, but they won't stick around until they're killed either. they'll keep fighting for a bit and then retreat.


after 6 years we came to full circle  ;D
haha. i guess we just need more carriers. ^^
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ChaseBears

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #372 on: February 24, 2017, 08:11:13 PM »

i believe the difference is...the original design had You, as scrappy small ship, fighting off small pirate ships and fighters; and fighters limited to carriers wern't compatible with driving off talons in your millenium falcon.  But it just wasn't scaling well, even if it worked fine at the low end.  And now we have a lot more variety in enemy small ships, as well as vessels the occupy the gap between frigate and fighter that can be used in a similar role.

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Voyager I

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Re: Fighter Redesign
« Reply #373 on: February 24, 2017, 08:57:57 PM »

I will still miss the tension of trying to solo a Hound + Talon combo in your stock Lasher just outside Jangala, back when the Hound was the spawn of hell instead of just cannon fodder.
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