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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Overall feedback on ships and weapons  (Read 46957 times)

woodsmoke

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2016, 10:31:01 AM »

The most dangerous threat in the simulator to an Onslaught or Paragon is a fleet of about twelve frigates with mostly Wolves and Tempests, with a few phase ships, an Omen, and maybe a ballistic bruiser mixed in.

Point of order: the simulator can be a useful tool for getting a general idea of the power of a particular ship, and I know you like soloing enemy fleets because it's the most efficient way of fighting right now, but I think it bears stating here the simulator is not the game. Starsector's combat is designed around fleet battles, not solo actions. Deploying my entire fleet may not be as efficient as chain-deploying Medusas, but, IMO, it's a lot more fun - at least up to the point of fighting 40+ ship superfleets at endgame, but to me that speaks to a problem with the 25-ship cap more than anything else.
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Megas

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2016, 01:11:34 PM »

Alex may have been intended Starsector to be fleet vs. fleet game, but the current game mechanics strongly support solo play more than fleet play.  If you can solo fleets with one overpowered ship, you consume less supplies and CR.  Your profits are bigger, you can chain-battle longer, and you do not risk your less competent AI controlled ships.  If your side is badly outnumbered (and it will be in the most difficult fights), then your AI ships will lose CR with you at best (and you cannot chain-battle as much) or die at worst because AI does not like being outnumbered.

Back in 0.65, when player could deploy forty frigates then regain half his CR back after crushing the enemy fleet quickly, it was worth doing fleet battles.

The simulator is useful because, since 0.7, there can be combined enemy fleets bigger and more powerful than the entire simulator.  If a ship cannot beat the simulator, it cannot beat the biggest, baddest fights a normal game can throw at you.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2016, 06:23:50 AM »

Alex may have been intended Starsector to be fleet vs. fleet game, but the current game mechanics strongly support solo play more than fleet play.  If you can solo fleets with one overpowered ship, you consume less supplies and CR.  Your profits are bigger, you can chain-battle longer, and you do not risk your less competent AI controlled ships.
So? It doesn't matter if it's "inefficient" if it's more fun. Levelling up by only trading used to be (and maybe still is) the safest way to level to where your skills make you overpowered. That doesn't mean everybody is only trading - low level combat is fun, even if it's inefficient. Fleet engagements are fun, even if they cost a little more supply. Rebalancing the game just because, if you only pick the same skills and same ships and same upgrades every time, solo-ing is the effective way to play (but only with these specific upgrades, specific skills and specific ships) is not exactly priority one or even smart.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 06:25:58 AM by DatonKallandor »
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Cik

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2016, 07:21:37 AM »

generally speaking you shouldn't tell people what's fun, considering it's subjective.

megas is a weirdo, but he's our weirdo and he has a deeper knowledge of this game than probably anyone else here.

he's totally correct on the mechanics of nearly everything, incl. the profit motive to solo.

it's not even a criticism to say the mechanics encourage X so you shouldn't get offended about it.
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Megas

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2016, 10:32:44 AM »

@ Cik: (Heh.)  I may be knowledgeable as a gamer, thanks to experience gained from playing, but I have not poked around the jsons or other files nearly as much that modders need to do.  I am sure guys like Cycerin, Dark_Revenant, Histidine, LazyWizard, Xenoargh, and other notable modders know much more about inner workings about the game than I do.  (I am too busy with other projects to attempt quality modding for Starsector for a long while.)

I simply have a ruthless game-as-war mindset to playing video games, which evolved over decades of various gameplay.  I have been all over the place into terms of motivations, from munchkin, silly, immersion/role-playing in the past.

I will stop rambling here and avoid more derail.
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Bastion.Systems

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2016, 11:03:29 AM »

Sunder + Autopulse + Extended Magazines (+needlers) = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKTpWi5itOM
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woodsmoke

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2016, 12:25:26 PM »

generally speaking you shouldn't tell people what's fun, considering it's subjective.

megas is a weirdo, but he's our weirdo and he has a deeper knowledge of this game than probably anyone else here.

he's totally correct on the mechanics of nearly everything, incl. the profit motive to solo.

it's not even a criticism to say the mechanics encourage X so you shouldn't get offended about it.

Fair point. Megas certainly understands the game's mechanics a lot better than I do, or at least has done a lot more to put the game through it's paces. I'm not saying anyone's wrong about the way the game works, simply making the point that, in my experience, those who focus primarily on efficiency tend to lose sight of the forest for the trees. Whatever the mechanical details, Alex obviously designed the combat around fleet actions. As far as I'm concerned, the game pretty clearly (albeit not explicitly) encourages that. Of course that doesn't preclude the possibility someone playing the game in an unconventional manner might figure out a way of playing a particular ship with a particular build that allows them to solo enemy fleets, but I don't think that has to be a significant problem.

Starsector is a fairly complex game with a lot of moving parts. Similar to an MMO in which a particular class might be all but unstoppable in 1v1 duels but works exactly as intended in larger PvP battles, the fact the balance might start breaking down to a greater or lesser extent when you choose to play on the edges of its design doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with that design, as that's presumably not what Alex is balancing for. Which isn't to say I think he should just ignore the issue, but it honestly doesn't make any difference to me as I'm not interested in that style of play.
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HELMUT

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2016, 01:49:28 PM »

Part 4 is out, with big ships, testing shenanigans and even bugs.
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woodsmoke

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2016, 04:20:07 PM »

I never would have dreamed of giving a Conquest to an officer. Mostly just because I adore that ship far too much to let the AI pilot it, but also because, as you noted, it really doesn't seem to know what to do with broadsides.

Personally, I'm fond of eschewing the conventional "PD to port, assault to starboard" loadout in favor of an All Punch, All the Time build. Hephaestus cannons in the large slots, HVDs in the middle and rear mediums, ion beams in the front. Missiles are MIRVs and harpoon pods, then blanket the whole thing in BPDs. Provided you're careful about not getting into the thick of things (which you should be doing anyway when piloting a Conquest), it'll straight up murder the *** out of anything the enemy fields, even a Paragon.

Which I suppose should pretty well be true of any capital ship when piloted by the player, but none of the others give the same feel as broadsides on a Conquest.
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Cik

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2016, 08:37:38 AM »

conquest is one of the best ships in the game IMO

all it needs is cruiser-level burn and it would actually be good, but the most important thing, that is, that it's fun, versatile, awesome looking etc, that's all there.
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Megas

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2016, 07:47:46 AM »

Not fond of asymmetrical configurations on the Conquest.  When I have a simulator to solo with a Conquest, my fun PD options are Dual Flak and IR Pulse Lasers.

From my old simulator smashers topic...

Conquest
Capacitors:  0
Vents:  80
Weapons:  2x Heavy Blaster, 4x Mjolnir Cannon, 4x Dual Flak Cannon, 4x Pilum LRM Launcher, 8x IR Pulse Laser
Hullmods:  Augmented Engines, Hardened Subsystems, Integrated Point Defense AI, Integrated Targeting Unit, Resistant Flux Conduits

Mjolnirs and Heavy Blasters are the primary damage dealers.  Dual Flak and IR Pulse Lasers are point defense and secondary damage dealers.  Pilums hit when they can for more damage.

By secondary damage dealers, Dual Flak and IR pulse lasers will chew up targets stripped of armor quickly, once the armor is gone.

The reason to use IR pulse lasers instead of beams is stopping power.  Beams will not be able to stop everything in a huge simulator battle quickly enough, unlike flak; and you want the extra damage when there no missiles or small fry to shoot at and can focus all guns for killing big game faster.

This configuration is built for brawling at short to medium range, and it pumps out lots of firepower rivaling an Onslaught if you can get both broadsides firing at the same time.  However, Conquest is nearly undone by terrible, TERRIBLE defenses.  Only hull regeneration from Damage Control 10 saves it.  Dual flak covers the sides, but only the shield can block stuff coming from the front or rear.
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HELMUT

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2016, 09:56:23 AM »

Updated with final part, the weapons. I wanted to do more, but, well... Given it's taking more time than anticipated, i guess it'll have to do.
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Megas

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2016, 11:58:32 AM »

Out of all small PD options, Vulcan is the best (for personal PD).  A single one can stop missiles.  Maybe not reliably, but better than almost certain failure from a lone beam against anything bigger than a Swarmer SRM.  Beams... most have low enough DPS that missiles ignore the beam until it hits the ship.  (Burst PD with charges is an exception, but costs about twice as much as Vulcan.)  I consider pirate Buffalo the best Buffalo because it can mount a Vulcan instead of a lousy beam.

Light Autocannons have the advantage of no windup, not too high OP cost, and maybe better availability.  Sometimes, the better light kinetics are not always useful, or that intended ship is likely to die and replacing the weapons is harder than the ship.  I would not use railgun or needler on Lasher because Lasher is likely to die, and replacing the weapons is too hard.  I would use autocannons on a Lasher instead because they are more expendable.

The main advantage of Arbalest over Railgun is availability.  Arbalest is common as dirt, and available even in open market.  Railgun is rare enough that I barely find enough for all of my ships.  Both are comparable, but railgun is the better weapon overall, admittedly.

Light needler's main advantage is range.  No other non-beam light weapon has as much range as light needler.  Light Needler is one of the rarest weapons in the game.  I never find enough for all of my ships, and what I do find gets saved for special playerships where there is no substitute for light needler.  Also, if the player has Target Analysis 10, then kinetics do enough damage to armor that an all kinetic configuration is viable (not necessarily optimal) for all-purpose assault.

Dual flak is not only "the best point defence in the game for its price.", it is the best PD in the game!  Nothing else competes.  It puts even Guardian PD to shame.

The main reason to use Heavy Needler is the player cannot stand Heavy AC's atrocious accuracy and turn rate, and has lots of OP to burn.  Needler used to be great when it had much more ammo than anything else, but since ballistics no longer use ammo, Heavy Needler is overpriced for what it does.  My go-to medium kinetics are either Heavy AC or HVD.

Never been fond of Mark IX.  It's accuracy is bad, and the DPS is weak.  However, it is effective enough if I have nothing better, and (I think) it is available at open market.

Thanks to Storm Needler's perfect accuracy and high DPS, it is effective against armor.  The main problem is flux cost.  When it used to be 500-something, it was all-powerful like Mjolnir is now.  Storm Needler cuts through shields, drilled through armor (if you can focus on a single point), and killed!  It still had its other weaknesses, but something like Dominator or Onslaught could mount Storm Needlers and kill things fast.  Now, with high flux cost, it is not possible to fire them for long.  The only ship that could use multiple needlers effectively, Conquest, is too fragile to trade shots other capitals.  Storm Needler works best when it can fire non-stop, but the high flux cost does not make that possible.  Also, 800 range is lousy for a heavy ballistic.  It was okay back in the day when it could be fired long enough to kill everyone, but not today with high flux cost.
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Wyvern

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2016, 12:03:13 PM »

It's kindof amusing, really.  Storm Needler was good (tricky to use due to low range, but good) and Mjolnir was almost unusable.  Then their flux costs were changed, and now it's the other way around; the Storm Needler is all but unusable, while the Mjolnir is top-tier.

...There should be a middle ground in there somewhere.  I don't think the Storm Needler should go all the way back to its old flux cost, but it needs to be lower than it is now.  And the Mjolnir needs a flux cost increase - just, again, not all the way back to what it used to have.
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HELMUT

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2016, 01:05:43 PM »

Dual flak is not only "the best point defence in the game for its price.", it is the best PD in the game!  Nothing else competes.  It puts even Guardian PD to shame.

Technically, the Guardian is better at intercepting both missiles and fighters (just tried it in the simulator). Not by a lot, but still better. The dual Flak still stays the most cost efficient PD available by a huge margin though.
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