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Author Topic: Overall feedback on ships and weapons  (Read 46955 times)

Megas

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2016, 01:18:41 PM »

I tried both, but have been disappointed by Guardian PD.  It is okay if it has charges.  Guardian PD still only hits one target at a time.  Dual flak can hit and kill multiple objects per shot.  Guardian PD has better range (and DPS for emergency assault role).  I am not sure Guardian PD can deal with huge stacks of bombs or torpedoes like flak can.
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HELMUT

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2016, 01:47:25 PM »

Cluster bombs are PD beam's kryptonite, only stopped by IPDA TacLaser, so no wonder the Guardian is struggling against swarms of those (although the dual flak couldn't quite stop a single Piranha wing either). As for torpedoes however, the Guardian never let one pass in my simulation (tested with Tartiflette's Target Practice mod), the dual flak on the other hand, is very hit or miss when it comes to intercepting Reapers.

All tests done at level 0. Don't want to do it with skills since they'll be revamped anyway.

Still, whether Dual Flak is truly superior or not to the Guardian, it's clearly too strong in my opinion.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2016, 01:51:53 PM »

Guardian PD is like an impenetrable torpedo shield -  it makes mincemeat of any single missiles, even the reaper.  It smashes through fighters (even shielded fighters), and is better than any other energy PD even when it eventually runs out of charges.  It also has amazing range and can cover a whole group of ships.

Its flaw is that no ship can usefully mount it except the Odyssey and Paragon.  The Odyssey can add a lot of PD in its other slots, and stick the more useful Autopulse there instead.  The Paragon doesn't really N eed any PD, frankly -- certainly not a large PD.
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Megas

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2016, 02:31:01 PM »

The main reason for Odyssey to use Guardian PD is player does not have enough Autopulse/Plasma Cannon for all ships, and Odyssey gets stuck with the leftovers (i.e., Guardian PD).  I have used Guardian PD/Reapers/IR Pulse Lasers on Odyssey before, when all of my available autopulse/PCs went to my Sunders and Apogees (those who cannot use Guardian PD effectively at all due to hardpoints).  It is not the most effective configuration for Odyssey, but it works.

As for Paragon, it can destroy any enemy ship with Heavy Blasters alone in all medium mounts.  Large and small can be whatever the player wants.  Back when charges were always expended at anything, it was fun holding fire then turn it on for all burst/guardian PD to kill one target.  After the fireworks, hold fire again, then activate for more beam spam.  Now that burst PD only shoots when at max charges, this does not work anymore.
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Deshara

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #64 on: October 19, 2016, 12:27:42 PM »

I wonder if maybe making bombs block each other from AOE explosive damage from Flak (so if there's a stack of bombs but only one bomb can "see" the flak explosion, only it gets hit) and make beams have a very small but unblockable AOE against stacked enemies and objects would even beams out a little bit
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TJJ

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #65 on: October 19, 2016, 03:01:00 PM »

I wonder if maybe making bombs block each other from AOE explosive damage from Flak (so if there's a stack of bombs but only one bomb can "see" the flak explosion, only it gets hit)

I'd usually be the last person to state performance considerations as a counter argument to the addition of a new mechanic, but........for such a functionally trivial change that'd be quite a computationally expensive way of achieving it.

A functionally similar result could be achieved by simply giving flak AoE a % hit chance. (approximating that the fragmentation explosion won't hit everything within its radius)
That'd retain flak's potential for being highly effective, but make it somewhat unreliable; impenetrable flak would become likely impenetrable flak.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 03:44:52 PM by TJJ »
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Gothars

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #66 on: October 19, 2016, 03:37:33 PM »

If flak cannons need to be nerfed (and I'm not sure that's the case) then I'd like a reduction of their rate of fire. Damage and area could even be buffed.
But a slower rate of fire would enable skilled players to overcome flaks with well timed distraction missiles. And would further pronounce the niches of the different PD types: flaks against big swarms, laser against consecutive individual missiles.
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Megas

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2016, 09:03:20 AM »

Single flak's greatest weakness is slow rate of fire.  When I use single flak instead of dual flak, I often see flak stop the first wave of missiles, then the follow-up missiles hit.  Dual flaks, on the other hand, fires quickly and continuously.  Two or three dual flaks will stop nearly any missile or torpedo barrage.  Also, single flak has low DPS, it is not that great at slaughtering unarmored or thinly armored ships.
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Megas

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2016, 06:17:08 PM »

If flak cannons need to be nerfed (and I'm not sure that's the case) then I'd like a reduction of their rate of fire. Damage and area could even be buffed.
But a slower rate of fire would enable skilled players to overcome flaks with well timed distraction missiles. And would further pronounce the niches of the different PD types: flaks against big swarms, laser against consecutive individual missiles.
The easiest way to weaken dual flak is to raise OP cost to 15 to match heavy needler.  Then, Enforcer and some other ships cannot afford it without giving up too much elsewhere.  (Standard Enforcer with max OP already has trouble affording dual flak without giving up something else.)

Not writing that I necessarily approve of the idea.  It is just an idea.
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Embolism

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2016, 09:05:31 PM »

I'd like to see the Apogee's large energy hardpoint turn into a turret (in the middle of the saucer) instead, if for no other reason than to add a ship that can realistically use Guardian PD. Fits the flavour too, it's meant to be an explorer so you'd expect a more defensive loadout.
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DownTheDrain

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2016, 11:28:56 PM »

I'd like to see the Apogee's large energy hardpoint turn into a turret (in the middle of the saucer) instead, if for no other reason than to add a ship that can realistically use Guardian PD. Fits the flavour too, it's meant to be an explorer so you'd expect a more defensive loadout.

I don't see how that would fix the issue with the Guardian PD and dual flak, if there indeed is an issue, but I agree.
Not necessarily because I want the Apogee buffed, but mostly because the placement of the large hardpoint makes the gun look really silly, especially the HIL.
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Schwartz

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2016, 01:06:49 AM »

I have yet another reason why the Apogee's got an awkward loadout. I has two separate missile types, two energy PD turrets, two energy mediums and two different hardpoint types. That's six control groups. If it's on AI, you can merge the missiles and set them to alternate, but it's still a pretty stuffy list. Add to that the fact that having these separate hardpoints makes it difficult to fit anything but weapons that have similar ranges. If you wanted to get a little creative with the loadout, you'd otherwise run into 1) group limit issues and 2) AI can't automate hardpoints. It can choose to either fire the Plasma Cannon or the IRPLs. The best solution I've found to this is to use beams and put them in a single group.

So yes - one of these two hardpoints could be improved by turning it into a narrow turret.

Edit: And the best solution of course would be to leave the layout as it is and add more weapon groups, as well as automatic hardpoint mode for AI.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 02:00:20 AM by Schwartz »
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Az the Squishy

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2016, 08:26:53 PM »


The Assault Chaingun is a niche weapon useful only in some specific situations. It's massively expensive to fire with very low range, so you have to be careful before committing the ship mounting this gun, as you can overload yourself easily. Its poor armour penetration prevent it from scaling during late game, but it really shines before that, even more since Safety Override offer both the venting and mobility to compensate for its weaknesses.

Also, for some reason the barrel animation seems broken. It spins weirdly. - Helmut


I noticed that too! HAH! IT WASN'T JUST ME!!!

Linnis

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2016, 10:09:48 PM »

Guardian PD ...
Its flaw is that no ship can usefully mount it except the Odyssey and Paragon.  The Odyssey can add a lot of PD in its other slots, and stick the more useful Autopulse there instead.  The Paragon doesn't really N eed any PD, frankly -- certainly not a large PD.

This is the truth.

Maybe outposts?
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Overall feedback on ships and weapons
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2016, 04:39:03 PM »

Its flaw is that no ship can usefully mount it except the Odyssey and Paragon.  The Odyssey can add a lot of PD in its other slots, and stick the more useful Autopulse there instead.  The Paragon doesn't really N eed any PD, frankly -- certainly not a large PD.
Not only does the Paragon not really need PD, it has 2 medium universal mounts; if you really want to put PD on your Paragon, it can mount Dual Flaks and keep all its large energy slots for offensive guns.
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