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Author Topic: Stop suicidal AI  (Read 13058 times)

Abyss

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Stop suicidal AI
« on: February 22, 2012, 07:57:14 PM »

Hi guys, I've been poopsocking this amazing game for the past week.  I'm totally in love with the underlying combat engine. HOWEVER, if there's one thing that's holding back this game, is that the AI is *** insane!
Commanding fleet battles like trying to fly a passenger plane while fighting over the controls with my co-pilot, who just happens to be a bipolar ex on suicide watch.  If I don't spend 90% of the game pausing, watching over my assets, if I do so much as look away for a moment, she's standing on the subway tracks, or ramming my favorite Tachyon-lance mounted Sunder, headlong into a Paragon.

I equip some expensive, fragile units with long range targeting, and long range weapons that range from a screen away to ACROSS THE MAP.  So why does the AI decide that it's awesome to hump the leg of the first thing it sees?  I've seriously lost count of the times my Hyperions with elite crews have kamikazed head-first into heavy ships, exploding from collision damage.  Does the AI only know how to hold 'W' and act like torpedo bombers/fighter wings?  It seems like all it wants to do is run straight into things, at which point it starts circle strafing, even if that means being stuck in a gangbang sandwich?

SUGGESTIONS:

Let players set skirmish/keep-away distance for individual units determined by their weapons.  For example if a ship is armed with a needler, and a vulcan, you could tell it to use needler range when you want it to wear down shields, or use vulcan range when you want it running down small ships.  Right now the units want to melee EVERYTHING, regardless of its own unit type, and whatever the target is.  A light destroyer will crash into smaller ships, and just as happily crash into a capital ship.

Let players determine a unit's movement, between the current "circling/attempting to get behind units, even if it means being surrounded" and "keep away from the bulk of enemy forces, don't get surrounded".

For the love of god stop swapping units from across the map, causing them to die like idiots when I want them to do one simple thing.  When I say I want to intercept an incoming bomber wing, that doesn't mean
I want my talon wing that's about to cap an objective to drop what he's doing, fly through the thick of the enemy fleet, and then have the broadsword wing that was right beside me to fly across the map to take its place capping.  The current priorities system takes way too much micromanagement and babysitting, it's like I'm constantly second guessing/reassigning units so they don't do stupid ***, when I have could just selected X units to attack Y.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 08:00:36 PM by Abyss »
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Thaago

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2012, 09:03:39 PM »

I disagree - in my experience the AI, especially on my side, is some of the best I've ever seen in this type of game.

The only thing in there that I have ever seen is the swapping on intercept - that is indeed a problem that could be fixed by changing the weight that distance has on the behavior. But I've noticed that I don't need to give intercept commands at all - the AI does it allready. I'm serious about this. Stop giving the intercept commands and don't over assign objectives - make sure to have some unassigned ships. Free fighters automatically intercept, or at least that is my experience. This is a case of less is better, where our RTS instinct to command every unit hurts us. Let go, Luke, use the AI, Luke...

For the tachyon lance, set a fire support marker (I believe having the lance will classify the ship as fire support).

I've never seen a ship melee another - to a fault in fact. Mine seem to stay away just a little too much, when a good ramming (which I do all the time in a frigate) would get the job done.



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Arghy

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2012, 09:50:29 PM »

Its all about the complexity of the battlefield--with 4 ships your frigates will dance in circles and be amazing but when you got 20 ships and fighters everywhere that same frigate is now ramming destroyers.

Once i get a cruiser in my fleet i pretty much relegate frigates to fodder because anything short of a destroyer is going to make mistakes and they wont recover from them. Its also about what assets their going up against--a frigate can make mistakes with other frigates but if hes facing a destroyer/cruiser who is spewing out death then a small mistake means hes going down.

As a general rule the bigger my fleet gets the more everyone focuses on defenses rather then offense--hardened shields/armor/bulkheads are pretty much mandatory. I've had lashers survive a long time with 2 LMG's on its back, 1 needler on its front turret and 2 mortar launchers with hardened shields but if you dont gain fighter superiority right off the bat all your frigates are going to die. If you have the junk pirates mod get the sickle frigate i've seen that thing survive when cruisers were dying left and right.
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Abyss

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2012, 10:24:44 PM »

Quote
Let go, Luke, use the AI, Luke...

Ok there Obi, did you just wave your hand and tell me these aren't the droids I'm looking for?

Setting fire support doesn't work.  That tells ALL missile equipped larger-than-frigate units, even my frontline cruisers and capital ships to sit like ducks on a single point.  It'll lump my Venture, Odyssey, and Astral, all units which I want in the front, along with my weak-ass Buffalo and Condors in the back.  If I want to separate that mess, it'll cost me the CP I have for the match.  Play the random battle mission more, where you have a kaleidoscope of units, and it's plainly apparent how broken the AI is.

You've never seen a ship melee another?  Really?  If I don't tell the AI to do anything, even Condors will crash into enemy Onslaughts every battle.  Case-in-point, I just reloaded a dozen times taking down a Tri-Tachyon armada with a Paragon in it, trying to do so without casualties.  I'd control all the points and clear away all enemy ships without a loss, then with the Paragon as the last unit, all my ships decide to warp speed 9 and kamikaze into it, single file.  It's like they don't know how to use reverse thrusters, at all.  It doesn't matter if I assign every ship to escort me to get them to slow down, as soon as I get within a couple screens they fly off like moths to a flame.  I've tried not giving orders, and every trick in the book including manipulating "defend" to get them to pull back, to setting up escort chains, none of it matters.  I have some elite Hyperions and Tempests, armed with heavy blasters, Hammerheads with heavy needlers, and Sunders with an assortment of long range pew pews ALL equipped with ranged targetting, ALL able to outrange and outrun the enemy Paragon by at least half a screen, yet each one of them seems to think it's a torpedo bomber, and after the initial crash they try to circle like a fighter wing, every single *** time.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 10:26:45 PM by Abyss »
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Arghy

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2012, 10:38:12 PM »

Less ships with better crews makes a huge difference--dont put your entire armada on the field and you'll see the difference... that is unless you've captured so many goddamn lashers you can afford to send wave after wave of them crewed by expendable greenies.
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Thaago

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 11:00:46 PM »

Quote
Let go, Luke, use the AI, Luke...

Ok there Obi, did you just wave your hand and tell me these aren't the droids I'm looking for?

Setting fire support doesn't work.  That tells ALL missile equipped larger-than-frigate units, even my frontline cruisers and capital ships to sit like ducks on a single point.  It'll lump my Venture, Odyssey, and Astral, all units which I want in the front, along with my weak-ass Buffalo and Condors in the back.  If I want to separate that mess, it'll cost me the CP I have for the match.  Play the random battle mission more, where you have a kaleidoscope of units, and it's plainly apparent how broken the AI is.

You've never seen a ship melee another?  Really?  If I don't tell the AI to do anything, even Condors will crash into enemy Onslaughts every battle.  Case-in-point, I just reloaded a dozen times taking down a Tri-Tachyon armada with a Paragon in it, trying to do so without casualties.  I'd control all the points and clear away all enemy ships without a loss, then with the Paragon as the last unit, all my ships decide to warp speed 9 and kamikaze into it, single file.  It's like they don't know how to use reverse thrusters, at all.  It doesn't matter if I assign every ship to escort me to get them to slow down, as soon as I get within a couple screens they fly off like moths to a flame.  I've tried not giving orders, and every trick in the book including manipulating "defend" to get them to pull back, to setting up escort chains, none of it matters.  I have some elite Hyperions and Tempests, armed with heavy blasters, Hammerheads with heavy needlers, and Sunders with an assortment of long range pew pews ALL equipped with ranged targetting, ALL able to outrange and outrun the enemy Paragon by at least half a screen, yet each one of them seems to think it's a torpedo bomber, and after the initial crash they try to circle like a fighter wing, every single *** time.

Honestly no, I've never seen a ship melee another on purpose other than my own. I've watched a whole lot of frigates battling cruisers and caps and never once seen a collision. Also, collision damage is pretty minor - if your Hyperion has its shields up it shouldn't really notice that much... Whenever I've seen a condor close with anything larger than another destroyer it is taken out much faster than the time it takes for them to actually reach each other (maybe I'm thinking of the wrong ship...)! The behavior you describe is to me is so bizarre that I wonder if you have a broken copy of the game. Maybe other people could tell me I'm nuts and they've seen it too?

As for the fire support, I'm pretty sure only ships with Pilums, Tachyon beams, and MIRV launchers are in that category. Do I wish that I could set custom groups for markers? Absolutely.

I don't play the random missions very much at all - the fleets they give you are usually terrible messes. The escort command does not work very well, thats true - Alex said so and is fixing it.

Maybe its just my choice of ships. I designed my fleet around the power of frigates and bombers, namely speed, wolf-pack tactics, and overwhelming concentration of force - destroyers and up (other than 1 carrier) just slow me down. I agree that fighters can be the death of certain frigates... so I only employ frigates that either tear fighters to pieces at long range or can outrun all fighters. The other requirement for my frigates is that they can outrun all destroyers.

I'm running a 10 ship light formation at the moment - 2 tempest frigates (advanced optics, I pilot one), 2 wolf close support frigates (advanced optics and extra missiles), 2 thunder fighters, 3 piranha bombers, and a venture class cruiser refitted for fire support and carrier duties. I'm routinely fighting fleets of the same size or larger and my frigates are generally fighting outside their weight class once the interceptors are mopped up - but they are also fighting 2-4 on 1. The only fleets that give me trouble are those with the fastest destroyers because they can dodge the bombs and survive 2-4 on 1 for long enough for other destroyers to show up. Anything cruiser sized better have at least 2 escorts or it will be dead on the first bombing run (I've found the key to keeping piranhas alive is to distract the pd of the target with my tempest at close range on its flank).

With all that frigate on cruiser, capital fighting, no collisions I've seen...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 11:04:32 PM by Thaago »
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Avan

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2012, 11:08:41 PM »

I've only seen this happen once, and it looked more like it was going in for a standard attack run when the enemy ship decided to raise shields and the frigate got caught under them and blew up as a result.

There was another incident when I had a damaged tempest trying to avoid several different collisions at once, and it failed, crashing into an enemy onslaught.

... and then there have been multiple incidents of my ships playing a rather costly (and sometimes deadly) game of bumpercars while trying to get to objectives and trying to cross each others paths all at once and overloading the collision avoidance system it seems. (At least for the frigates, which are always on the loosing end of the collision game)

arwan

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 11:20:47 PM »

one of the more Hannis AI behaviors i run into is when I or another ship does cross in front of an AI ship that the ship thats path got crossed will instead of trying to go to the rear of the ship crossing its path will attempt to get in front of the ship crossing its path and usually end up floating ever closer and usually sideways for a great distance before it can break off.. kind of like there magnetically attracted.

i wish i could think of words to better describe this.... maybe ill try and make a 30 second clip of it to try and demonstrate.
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Alex
You won't be able to refit fighters and bombers at all. They're designed/balanced around having a particular set of weapons and would be very broken if you could change it. Which ones you pick for your fleet -out of quite a few that are available- is the choice here, not how they're outfitted.

Abyss

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 01:01:17 AM »

Less ships with better crews makes a huge difference--dont put your entire armada on the field and you'll see the difference... that is unless you've captured so many goddamn lashers you can afford to send wave after wave of them crewed by expendable greenies.

The crew rank affects turn speed, shields, accuracy, etc, not their underlying decision making.  A small fleet of the most expensive frigates/destroyers with elite/advanced crews, behave exactly as regulars do in random battle.  The save I was just playing had 1 elite Hyperion, 2 elite tempests, 1 veteran tempest, Sunder, and Hammerhead.  I can baby them through the fight against the Tritach armada by leashing the destroyers to me or an objective (otherwise they faceplant into a dozen cruisers and vaporize), up until the Paragon, where I need their antishield weaponry.  It's almost as if the AI uses only the center pixel of an opponent's hitbox to determine their distance, could probably explain the faceplanting against larger units.  Even so, it makes me wonder why ships armed with 1250 range weapons want to run into things so badly.

Quote from: Thaago
Also, collision damage is pretty minor - if your Hyperion has its shields up it shouldn't really notice that much...

Collisions are fatal for the Hyperion.

A Hyperion isn't going to have shields when it's flying straight into an Onslaught or Paragon.  It's going to blow its flux load coming in, all while taking streams of repeaters, concentrated lasers, and heavy blasts to its face. Most of my reloads come from its elite crew deciding that soloing capships by ramming into its engines while overloaded is somehow the greatest thing ever.    

Quote from: Thaago
I don't play the random missions very much at all - the fleets they give you are usually terrible messes.

Maybe its just my choice of ships.

I designed my fleet around the power of frigates and bombers

Well there you have it.  I like to experiment with everything.  Random battle gives me a taste of all types of units, with a mix of weaponry, at times forcing me to deal with vastly superior forces and coming up with new tactics on the fly.  In the campaign, I choose the ship and loadout I want, and try to make it work.  I'm forced to come up with a different strategy every game, and that keeps things fresh.  

Everyone knows the power of mass concentrations of bombers/fighter fleets right now.  I'm at the point where I skip a random battle if the game decides to throw me multiple wings, even going up against several cap ships.  The enemy AI is really unequipped to deal with it, since it has no strategic cohesion, and especially since PD can't make up its mind when targeting a swarm of gnats.  There's no way for it to intercept something without it going crazy and pulling a capping unit from across the map.  Mostly all the AI wants to do is run from one end of the map to other, and has no overall battle awareness whatsoever.  It also loves to retreat if you so much as sneeze at it.

What I'm trying to say is, all units wish they were bombers, too.  The AI for fighter class units behaves as it should in a massive swarm, that's why it's effective for you, and you don't see the problem.  Things are dead before they ever have the chance to collide.  Everything else behaving the same way makes me facepalm.  Play some of the drawn out random battles where it pits multiple capships, ones where it doesn't throw you a bunch of fighter-class/tempests for free wins.  Usually it's like watching a bunch of linemen, where their only goal is to ram into each other, as hard as possible.

 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 01:05:36 AM by Abyss »
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arwan

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 01:02:30 AM »

here is the video of what i was trying to explain.. as you can see im trying to go past this AI controled destroyer with my destroyer and it seemingly sticks to me even when i change course.

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Alex
You won't be able to refit fighters and bombers at all. They're designed/balanced around having a particular set of weapons and would be very broken if you could change it. Which ones you pick for your fleet -out of quite a few that are available- is the choice here, not how they're outfitted.

Deathven

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 06:48:50 AM »

here is the video of what i was trying to explain.. as you can see im trying to go past this AI controled destroyer with my destroyer and it seemingly sticks to me even when i change course.



Now that is wierd. I too, have personally seen some ships ram each other. Only frigates though. Unfortunately, they seem to ram into destroyers though. Yet, they dance around capital ships.
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Abyss

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 10:10:18 PM »

I've never seen a ship melee another on purpose other than my own. I've watched a whole lot of frigates battling cruisers and caps and never once seen a collision. Also, collision damage is pretty minor -

With all that frigate on cruiser, capital fighting, no collisions I've seen...

Long-range loadout tempests vs full health carrier capship.



Minor collision damage huh?

This is happening every game, all the time.  I've hours worth of AI insanity that I'm editing, stay tuned.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 10:16:18 PM by Abyss »
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Arghy

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2012, 10:37:45 PM »

Hahahahaha took me a while to realize what happened in that video. I had my prized gun runner medusa kill a ship point blank ramming it and nearly getting killed from the explosion, cost me some elite crewmen :argh:
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j01

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2012, 10:51:45 PM »

In my campaign game, I have a hyperion class frigate (the best frigate) filled with elite crew, and specifically outfitted for brawling melee combat.

I find that most of the time, when controlled by the AI, my hyperion will speed into combat, not raise shields until the LAST possible moment, sometimes even getting hit head on due to the delay, and then it turns away either to dodge missiles or just to compensate for momentum, and gets nailed from the side or behind due to thinking it has omni shields when it doesn't, while the shields are still powering up.

This makes for extremely short and unreliable combat, especially on the ship classes with low hull/armor and high flux/shield efficiency. Nevermind when they drop shields to cooldown or vent flux while being fired upon instead of getting the hell out of there with their superior speed.

It's a bit more of a nuisance since I can't micromanage in the tactical screen freely due to command point restrictions, otherwise I could just make up for these shortcomings by grouping my ships together and employing flanking maneuvers.

A small frustration, but there it is.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 11:54:38 PM by j01 »
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Pentakill

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Re: Stop suicidal AI
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2012, 09:18:41 AM »

Hi guys, I've been poopsocking...  ...when I have could just selected X units to attack Y.


I have to say i've also seen quite a few ships go headlong into a situation that will only end one way, very explosiony if you know what I mean haha. Now i've logged wayyy to many hours in campaign to say that the % of ships that do this is big but in maybe 5-8% of battles I have i'll see at least one ship charge full force into the center of the enemy fleet only to be destroyed seconds later. The funniest example that comes to mind has got to be a Paragon with 4 Lances goes across the map to literally ram a pair of onslaughts, thank god I had an army to back it up but come on, it had like 0 non-PD short range things, what's it doing tryin to bump two onslaughts to death with it's shields.
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