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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] Ship/Weapon Pack 1.7.2  (Read 119248 times)
A Random Jolteon
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« Reply #255 on: May 16, 2018, 05:57:08 AM »

Maybe that is the reason.
I changed fleet compositions trying to make factions more different (Hegemony-low tech, PL - mid tech, TT - high tech etc). So maybe I cut it from most of the factions. Cut some ships that don't fit.
So its probably this.
Thanks for info.


Hmm...maybe make the civilian ships use them? It's a bad PD weapon IMO, but it's cheap as heck. Civilians that don't get into any danger often would probably want this.
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Sarissofoi
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« Reply #256 on: May 16, 2018, 09:14:35 AM »

Maybe that is the reason.
I changed fleet compositions trying to make factions more different (Hegemony-low tech, PL - mid tech, TT - high tech etc). So maybe I cut it from most of the factions. Cut some ships that don't fit.
So its probably this.
Thanks for info.


Hmm...maybe make the civilian ships use them? It's a bad PD weapon IMO, but it's cheap as heck. Civilians that don't get into any danger often would probably want this.
Good advice. Thanks.
Also I just like to install them for more visual dakka.
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A Random Jolteon
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« Reply #257 on: May 16, 2018, 12:15:36 PM »

Good advice. Thanks.
Also I just like to install them for more visual dakka.

I can get wanting Dakka perfectly. However, this particular Dakka related weapon really only has accuracy going for it...But it is darn accurate...
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WolfSkimmer
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« Reply #258 on: May 30, 2018, 04:53:39 PM »

After making sure to defeat the personal ship that the bounty is posted on, you are usually given the ship in the form of salvage, along with lots of credits. If it doesn't drop, you can find it at the Prism Freeport (Or Frism Preeport if you are Nemonaemo.) for a premium price.

I have unfortunately received no salvageable ships in my bounty missions, and am playing without nexerelin, is there any way without the use of command console to get these unique ships into my fleet?

I want the Prism Freeport and mining from Nexerelin. I do not like factions being squished and one faction dominating the sector. Maybe there is code I could fiddle around with to make it more to my taste.
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Dark.Revenant
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« Reply #259 on: May 31, 2018, 03:49:29 PM »

Note: You receive less salvage if you have a fleet closer to the max size.  Weird vanilla quirk.
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« Reply #260 on: June 04, 2018, 08:26:18 AM »

So, I've been playing around with the revamped Cathedral, and have some feedback:

1) The combat sensor range of the ship is sufficiently low that the Redeemer (the built-in turret) can hit targets it can't even target lock. I suspect this is because hullmods or pilot skills can boost firing ranges, but not sensor ranges. Maybe consider modifying the "Massive Hull" hullmod so that it also increases in-combat sensor range and not just strategic sensor range?

2) The Redeemer's shots are detonated by fighters. The gun already suffers from a wide number of drawbacks (awful flux efficiency, low refire, and a 0.5 sec delay in firing), and the few times you can accurately line up a target at range... a random fighter can simply wander past and ruin the shot. This issue is kind of unique to the Redeemer since other fixed guns can be paired with normal turrets (with comparable ranges) so at least some shots of a barrage get through. But since no other weapons can match the range of the Redeemer, one stray fighter will nullify all damage at long ranges. I'd recommend giving it some sort of accuracy boost (remove 0.5 sec delay, increase projectile speed, make the shot ignore fighters) to offset this. Otherwise the weapon becomes largely useless against ships with large fighter deployments.

3) The Cathedral's crew usage seems a bit off. At 1500 minimum crew, it's about three times the average for the largest capital ships. But... it doesn't actually seem to use them for anything. Ships with a compatible number of turrets, hangars, or cargo use a fraction of that crew. I think 1500 crew might make sense for its original role as a colony ship, but not as much if it's just a combat ship. I'd consider dropping that number to 1000, or even less... or at the very least, adding a "blast doors" hullmod or some sort of reduced crew casualties effect to the "Massive Hull" hullmod, so hull damage won't suck the entire fleet dry of crew. Or maybe even putting those crew by making it more logistics-oriented; having it grant a fleet repair speed bonus, or maintenance reduction, or giving it more flight decks.
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Mr. Nobody
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« Reply #261 on: June 04, 2018, 12:02:57 PM »

2) The Redeemer's shots are detonated by fighters. The gun already suffers from a wide number of drawbacks (awful flux efficiency, low refire, and a 0.5 sec delay in firing), and the few times you can accurately line up a target at range... a random fighter can simply wander past and ruin the shot. This issue is kind of unique to the Redeemer since other fixed guns can be paired with normal turrets (with comparable ranges) so at least some shots of a barrage get through. But since no other weapons can match the range of the Redeemer, one stray fighter will nullify all damage at long ranges. I'd recommend giving it some sort of accuracy boost (remove 0.5 sec delay, increase projectile speed, make the shot ignore fighters) to offset this. Otherwise the weapon becomes largely useless against ships with large fighter deployments.

Or, my 2 cents, have the gun just paste fighters along the way with a little damage loss for each fighter that get splattered, if it hits enough fighters to get it's damage reduced to 0 it explodes, otherwise it keeps going until it hits a meatier target
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« Reply #262 on: June 04, 2018, 04:46:48 PM »

So, I've been playing around with the revamped Cathedral, and have some feedback:

1) The combat sensor range of the ship is sufficiently low that the Redeemer (the built-in turret) can hit targets it can't even target lock. I suspect this is because hullmods or pilot skills can boost firing ranges, but not sensor ranges. Maybe consider modifying the "Massive Hull" hullmod so that it also increases in-combat sensor range and not just strategic sensor range?

2) The Redeemer's shots are detonated by fighters. The gun already suffers from a wide number of drawbacks (awful flux efficiency, low refire, and a 0.5 sec delay in firing), and the few times you can accurately line up a target at range... a random fighter can simply wander past and ruin the shot. This issue is kind of unique to the Redeemer since other fixed guns can be paired with normal turrets (with comparable ranges) so at least some shots of a barrage get through. But since no other weapons can match the range of the Redeemer, one stray fighter will nullify all damage at long ranges. I'd recommend giving it some sort of accuracy boost (remove 0.5 sec delay, increase projectile speed, make the shot ignore fighters) to offset this. Otherwise the weapon becomes largely useless against ships with large fighter deployments.

3) The Cathedral's crew usage seems a bit off. At 1500 minimum crew, it's about three times the average for the largest capital ships. But... it doesn't actually seem to use them for anything. Ships with a compatible number of turrets, hangars, or cargo use a fraction of that crew. I think 1500 crew might make sense for its original role as a colony ship, but not as much if it's just a combat ship. I'd consider dropping that number to 1000, or even less... or at the very least, adding a "blast doors" hullmod or some sort of reduced crew casualties effect to the "Massive Hull" hullmod, so hull damage won't suck the entire fleet dry of crew. Or maybe even putting those crew by making it more logistics-oriented; having it grant a fleet repair speed bonus, or maintenance reduction, or giving it more flight decks.

1: Use other ships to spot for it, making it able to spot for its own main gun is not needed. The ship is powerful enough already.

2: It doesn't need an accuracy boost, removing the 0.5 second chargeup would be silly as it is needed as a tell before it fires for player agency, faster projectile speed would make it too difficult to defend against, making it pass through fighters is a complex subject and doing it right is difficult (if this was done, and I wouldn't get your hopes up it should "bulldoze through them"), and it being less useful vs ships that spam fighters is not really an issue. The ship is powerful enough already.

3: It does not need a reduced crew complement, that is part of its cost to run, making it cheaper is silly. The ship is powerful enough already.
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« Reply #263 on: June 04, 2018, 06:43:00 PM »

So, I've been playing around with the revamped Cathedral, and have some feedback:

1) The combat sensor range of the ship is sufficiently low that the Redeemer (the built-in turret) can hit targets it can't even target lock. I suspect this is because hullmods or pilot skills can boost firing ranges, but not sensor ranges. Maybe consider modifying the "Massive Hull" hullmod so that it also increases in-combat sensor range and not just strategic sensor range?

2) The Redeemer's shots are detonated by fighters. The gun already suffers from a wide number of drawbacks (awful flux efficiency, low refire, and a 0.5 sec delay in firing), and the few times you can accurately line up a target at range... a random fighter can simply wander past and ruin the shot. This issue is kind of unique to the Redeemer since other fixed guns can be paired with normal turrets (with comparable ranges) so at least some shots of a barrage get through. But since no other weapons can match the range of the Redeemer, one stray fighter will nullify all damage at long ranges. I'd recommend giving it some sort of accuracy boost (remove 0.5 sec delay, increase projectile speed, make the shot ignore fighters) to offset this. Otherwise the weapon becomes largely useless against ships with large fighter deployments.

3) The Cathedral's crew usage seems a bit off. At 1500 minimum crew, it's about three times the average for the largest capital ships. But... it doesn't actually seem to use them for anything. Ships with a compatible number of turrets, hangars, or cargo use a fraction of that crew. I think 1500 crew might make sense for its original role as a colony ship, but not as much if it's just a combat ship. I'd consider dropping that number to 1000, or even less... or at the very least, adding a "blast doors" hullmod or some sort of reduced crew casualties effect to the "Massive Hull" hullmod, so hull damage won't suck the entire fleet dry of crew. Or maybe even putting those crew by making it more logistics-oriented; having it grant a fleet repair speed bonus, or maintenance reduction, or giving it more flight decks.

1: Use other ships to spot for it, making it able to spot for its own main gun is not needed. The ship is powerful enough already.

2: It doesn't need an accuracy boost, removing the 0.5 second chargeup would be silly as it is needed as a tell before it fires for player agency, faster projectile speed would make it too difficult to defend against, making it pass through fighters is a complex subject and doing it right is difficult (if this was done, and I wouldn't get your hopes up it should "bulldoze through them"), and it being less useful vs ships that spam fighters is not really an issue. The ship is powerful enough already.

3: It does not need a reduced crew complement, that is part of its cost to run, making it cheaper is silly. The ship is powerful enough already.


The first point isn't an issue of it being "too powerful". It was more an issue of "it's kind of annoying needing to mouse over and spam the target key until a ship finally enters targeting range so I can see its health". You can zoom out and see visually far beyond sensor range (there's no visual fog-of-war in tactical combat), so you can hit stuff regardless. It's more a quality-of-life thing. Or at least in my case, when I was manually operating the gun.

To the second point: The Redeemer's raw DPS is about 286 (Burst damage 2000, with a delay of: 1.5 charge up, 5.5 cooldown = 7 seconds). Now that's a theoretical, 100% accuracy value, and on its own can barely break through the shield tanks of many frigates. But factoring the 1.5 second charge up, plus let's say another 1-2 seconds of latency due to projectile travel time at long range, it's effective accuracy plummets -- along with it's practical DPS. In actual practice we'd be talking at 50-150 DPS in practice depending on the target size. In other words, the Redeemer can't actually kill ships except the weakest of frigates ... anything small enough to be endangered its shots has several seconds to dodge. And keep in mind this comes at a cost of a 1:2 damage-to-flux ratio, meaning it wastes far more flux than most conventional weapons. And does less real DPS than many medium-sized weapons.

So it doesn't bulldoze through anything except civilian-class shuttles or fighters. I've been playing several hours with it, and 95% of my kills with it were hitting fleeting ships on the verge of death (armorless, heavily damaged hull). The remaining kills were due to a large dose of luck, as I managed to overwhelm a weak frigate (score 2-4 consecutive hits, enough to overload their shields and keep them immobile long enough to score a further 2-3 hits to chew through the armor and hull). Now, I know you might think its massive range is a great asset... but I would argue the opposite. At <20 speed, the Cathedral is virtually immobile, so cannot chase down even the largest targets moving targets. The extreme range is more akin to a crutch or wheelchair to offset its crippling disadvantage of immobility, so in the end isn't really much of an advantage over other ships.

Now I won't argue the entire ship as a whole isn't itself powerful... but, at least, the Redeemer cannon itself is horrible as a weapon system. I end up disabling it in actual combat since all it does is suck away flux from far more efficient weapons and shields. I just wanted to bring it to your attention that maybe you might want to look at re-balancing it a bit. Or not. For all I know it could be intentionally bad so as to nerf the performance of Cathedrals by sucking up flux capacity, since you consider the ship as a whole pretty powerful.
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Dark.Revenant
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« Reply #264 on: June 04, 2018, 07:09:39 PM »

The Cathedral is deliberately intended to be weaker than its size would imply.
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« Reply #265 on: June 04, 2018, 07:16:29 PM »

High burst weapons aren't for killing, they're for stabbing through enemy lines and creating vulnerabilities.  You can insta-overload a cruiser at 60% flux, or instantly get a cruiser to that point in the beginning of its attack.  You're a support unit not raw DPS.
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« Reply #266 on: June 04, 2018, 09:42:44 PM »

Also, follow up after some testing: Making the Cathedral's sensor range equal or greater to its sensor range would not make it "too powerful" as you suggest, but quite the opposite. I ran some more tests with the Redeemer cannon and large turreted weapons on the Cathedral.

I've been exchanging fire with an enemy station beyond sensor range. I was hitting it with both the Redeemer cannon and some large turrets, and it was even hitting my shields back with some turrets of its own. But strangely enough, "Peak Active Performance Time Remaining" remained frozen, so I could sit there sniping forever. This timer only began ticking the exact moment I moved close enough for the station to show up on tactical sensors. If the two are related (i.e., the fact that sensor range and peak active performance detection range being identical isn't just a fluke), that means lower sensor range than gun range creates an exploit that gives you unlimited peak active performance when sniping.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 09:44:19 PM by Regularity » Logged
A Random Jolteon
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« Reply #267 on: June 05, 2018, 07:07:08 AM »

Haven't played SS in a while, but I am all for the Redeemer shot not instantly detonating just because it hit one talon...Come on, this thing can punch a massive hole into the Onslaughts armor with just a few hits. How can a TALON of all things stop it? I would think the talon would vaporize on whatever holds the shot together!

Anyway, that's honestly my only gripe with the Cathedral. Suuuure I want it to be faster than 10, but that's just personal greed. Even with the Redeemers little annoying quality, it's over all very balanced. Although having the ability to give fleet repairs or something similar is a neat idea...maybe make a modified version that loses some turrets and/ir hangar bays to fit the equipment needed?
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Tartiflette
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« Reply #268 on: June 05, 2018, 07:53:34 AM »

Except there is no easy way to do that with the way game engine works.
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« Reply #269 on: June 05, 2018, 08:39:15 AM »

Haven't played SS in a while, but I am all for the Redeemer shot not instantly detonating just because it hit one talon...Come on, this thing can punch a massive hole into the Onslaughts armor with just a few hits. How can a TALON of all things stop it? I would think the talon would vaporize on whatever holds the shot together!

And missiles too, apparently. It's annoying spending the 7 second firing cycle going for a killing shot, when some frigate's stray SRM barrage intercepts the shot.
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