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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.7  (Read 281646 times)

Arcagnello

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #210 on: October 30, 2020, 02:59:53 PM »

The Dragon would be extremely OP if it has Accelerated Ammo Feeder!

Anyways Fast Racks is actually really great on it. It can knock down shields with its guns, and then turn a broadside and fire a prodigious volley of torpedoes, or just spam MRMs etc etc whatever.

I'll disagree on the first part:

The Dragon's AI is hardcoded into always facing the enemy it prioritizes with its nose due to the downsized single TPC at the front being fixed, meaning only one large ballistic mount (out of 3!) would be focusing on a target while the Accellerated Ammo Feeder is active. It even has no medium ballistic mounts facing directly in front of it, just three small ones you're inevitably going to use for PD.

Hell, even with non-vanilla weapons like the Balor Smartgun (from Legio Infernalis) making it able to shoot the front enemy with two large ballistics (it's got very bad flux-damage efficiency but the shell it fires has low tracking capabilities to compensate) the ship still struggles in the damage department.

Fast Missile racks on the Dragon gives me the same exact feeling I would experience if Alex&colleagues got drugged out of their minds while on a Raging Lockdown Zoom Bender and gave High Energy Focus to the Eagle instead of its Manouvering Jets (If you're reading this Alex, I'm sorry, it was the first comparison that came into my head for some reason). It's "ok" but it misses the point of the whole ship as far as I'm concerned. The Dragon is already really tight on ordinance points (stock 250, 275 with skills) if you actually want the two fighter bays to do anything remotely impactful, giving it an ability that would make its inefficient weapon arrangements somewhat effective for a short amount of time would be swell.

The Atlas Mk.II has Accellerated Ammo Feeder for Ludd's sake! And that thing can get double gauss/hurricane MIRV working!!

P.S: You know, even giving it a downgraded version of the Odyssey's plasma jets that recharges faster instead would really do wonders. Manouvering Jets would probably fit it even better since it does not broadside like its non-bootleg stepbrother and something that only boosts it forward would really screw with its already poor survivablity, being one third carrier and all that.

Edit: oh would you look at that, I forgot about the rest of your post entirely and only focused on that specific part that triggered my spaghetti feelings. Very Italian of me, I know.

The dragon setup I am using right now has two heavy fighters+expanded deck crew, the most long-ish range, most DPS itensive kinetic weapon I could find across my modded campaign since it's the one weapon it's going to be shooting most of the time (Arteria Heavy Railgun from The Great Houses, 26 OP, 1k range, fast fire rate, basically a premium version heavy autocannon on most aspects), a Balor Smartgun from LI right behind that and general PD everywhere else. I also managed to cram PDAI, ITU and Hardened shields while I was there. It has no flux capacitors so it can get overwhelmed really fast but it's mobile enough to fend for itself most of the time.

I've found any OP investments in missiles to even use the special skill to cripple it way too much anywhere else, so I did not bother even installing any:
-use Sabots and it's going to want to get close and get murdered
-use Salamanders and they're not going to be useful against the ships the Dragon struggles most (actual combat carriers/battlecruisers and not a combined bastardization of the two like itself)
-use Harpoons and the Dragon is going to spam them on the first frigade it overloads with the railgun and they would be reduntant considering I've got a large HE weapon already installed
-use fancy stuff like the Karion Seeker from the Great houses to waste 30FP in a virtually zero damage EMP gimmick just to have the enemy eat it, walk up to you anyway and blast you to kingdom come

Edit: I edited this reply way more than I should have.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 05:09:39 PM by Arcagnello »
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Retry

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #211 on: October 30, 2020, 05:39:08 PM »

From fielding the Dragon somewhat, I'm somewhat skeptical that AAF would transform the machine into a slayer of fleets.  At worst I'd roughly guesstimate it'd be slightly overtuned, but I'd expect overall average performance due to general limitations in flux, OP, and turret firing arcs.  Also I'm way too busy/lazy/uninterested to actually test that change like I did with the Gladius a month ago

(Slight irrelevant nitpick with Arca's argument though, Odyssey has Plasma Burn since 0.9, not Plasma Jets)

I don't find the Dragon's current implementation to be a problem, though.  Not everything's gotta be top grade after all, especially pirate equipment.  I'm personally quite happy to blow up 'em all sky-high and take their ever-lovely Stalker escorts as salvage for my next deep-space expedition.
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Arcagnello

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #212 on: November 01, 2020, 09:07:03 AM »

From fielding the Dragon somewhat, I'm somewhat skeptical that AAF would transform the machine into a slayer of fleets.  At worst I'd roughly guesstimate it'd be slightly overtuned, but I'd expect overall average performance due to general limitations in flux, OP, and turret firing arcs.  Also I'm way too busy/lazy/uninterested to actually test that change like I did with the Gladius a month ago

(Slight irrelevant nitpick with Arca's argument though, Odyssey has Plasma Burn since 0.9, not Plasma Jets)

I don't find the Dragon's current implementation to be a problem, though.  Not everything's gotta be top grade after all, especially pirate equipment.  I'm personally quite happy to blow up 'em all sky-high and take their ever-lovely Stalker escorts as salvage for my next deep-space expedition.

Pardon for the late reply, I've had some busy days!

The Dragon actually has a pretty nice flux dissipation, I was positively surprised by it the first time I tried it, the problem is (as you just said) that it's really hard for it to use all of its large kinetic weapon mounts unless you resort to very flux inefficient tracking/AOE weapons from other mods like the Balor Smartgun (Legio Infernalis) or the Shockweb Canister (Kadur Remnant)

Ah, I knew there was something wrong in the way I called the Odissey's special ability, but I was at bed and too tired to get up and check what the exact name was :P

Well, more or less every other ship from this mod has better "pound-for-pound" performance than the Dragon not because they've got more mounts or better weapon arcs, but because they all have a special ability that directly benefits their playstyle (I'll list the ones most on my mind):


1)Stalker is an up-gunned kinetic version of the Apogee and while it sacrifices the front facing large slot it retains the large missile mount, gets a plethora of new ballistic mounts, obtains a built-in Revolver wing (wich I love by the way) and even recieves the coveted Accellerated Ammo Feeder

2) Barbarian is an oddly shaped frontsider basically begging you to be overridden but that can also play as a broadsider using railguns (you'll have to skip installing PDAI for it to work) effectively being able to keep pressuring faster ships with its Burn Drive

3)Boar is a great alternative to the Falcon P when it comes to vomiting missiles but is actually a bit more durable and sacrifices the latter's agility for better chasing capabilities thanks to its Burn Drive

4)Infernus is a barely mobile array of TPCs slapped on a destroyer-sized turret with the slowest in-combat speed of any vessel (stock speed is 20 I think) and a hull rotation speed comparable to a low tech battlestation but that gets the option of a burn drive to quickly close the distance with the enemy. A bit off topic but I think the burn drive on this behemoth does not result in the ship getting a flameout even if I ram really big allies/opponents with it. Is it intended?

5)Torch more or less is a miniature Conquest with a makeshift shield generator + extended shield and offensive weapons (heavy mortar + railguns) on one side. It brings quite the heavy aount of firepower for its size and its burn ability makes it keep up with stuff running away from it.

Accellerated Ammo feeder is what I would like Odyssey to have the most of course, I won't deny my bias. Another Option would just be to turn one (or even two to fully embrace the meme) large ballistic mount into composite, allowing it to use large missile weapons and finally, finally make use of the Special Ability well enough to consider installing missiles in the first place.

Just imagine a pirate fleet with some Dragons with Double Piranha, a Gauss Cannon at the front and Double Squall at the sides. Now THAT would make people respect it a whole lot more. Giving barely PD capable capitals too slow to catch it PTSD and all that.

Edit: Alternatively, how about giving that salvaged TPC at the front a generous weapon arc so that the Dragon can actually broadside on either side to at least utilize two of the three large ballsitic mounts on the same target? That would probably provide the ship with the most customization options, given it's already got a wide omni shield and the only reason it's not a good idea to do right now is because that TPC is fixed at the nose.

Edit: I actually managed to list the Barbarian twice in a 5 point list. Amazing.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 12:33:35 PM by Arcagnello »
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #213 on: November 02, 2020, 12:28:29 AM »

Coincidentally:
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Arcagnello

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #214 on: November 02, 2020, 03:12:32 AM »


All Hail the mighty Doot!

Edit: I have a feeling this discussion could've been avoided if I actually used Discord a bit more, I just like the forum format a lot better tough  :-X
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 03:14:30 AM by Arcagnello »
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Avanitia

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #215 on: November 02, 2020, 03:20:57 AM »

Clearly best mount for Hammer Barrage.
This does make broadside setup with guided missile on the large slot more fun.
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Ali

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #216 on: November 02, 2020, 11:22:40 AM »

Really hope the Dragon doesn't get changed at all - it's 1 of my favouriate ships!!!

The only change Underworld needs is higher turret density on the infernus to match / eclipse the dragon and babrbarian!!  ;D

Oh and more ships / cool pirate theme'd mods with no downsides please!
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Arcagnello

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #217 on: November 02, 2020, 01:25:14 PM »

Really hope the Dragon doesn't get changed at all - it's 1 of my favouriate ships!!!

The only change Underworld needs is higher turret density on the infernus to match / eclipse the dragon and babrbarian!!  ;D

Oh and more ships / cool pirate theme'd mods with no downsides please!

I think Dark.Revenant is doing the best possible change to it, wich is converting purely ballistic large mounts into composite mounts able to install either large ballistic weapons or large missile weapons. You're going to play it as if the change did not even happen if you like it ballistic, but you're also going to have the option of making it a missile heavy battlecruiser.

What...what do you mean the Infernus does not have enough turret density? It's got the Infernus Turret with 0.8 efficiency, 1k range, brutal burst damage and 500+ DPS but it can also field 4 medium ballistic and 1 large ballistic aiming at the front and with very generous weapon arcs to the side. What is even better about the Infernus is that it's actually got amazing flux dissipation stats to back all of its weapons up too, meaning that if you invest into flux dissipation and relatively flux efficient weaponry you get to this result:
Spoiler
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It's got a level 20 officer mind you, but it still reliably beats two legions/an astral+a small carrier like it's nothing even without one. It even makes fleets like these a joke, the amount of point defence and long range, hard flux generating firepower the thing can just vomit at range is astonishing. It could even be a better "pound-for-pound" point defence bastion than the Onslaught!
Spoiler
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Oh, and have I mentioned the fact that the Infernus works really well when working in tandem with the Junk from HMI? They even look eerily similar to boot!
Spoiler
[close]

Moving on, the Barbarian is, to be fair, ok. I honestly feel like it only shines with Assault Chainguns/machineguns and is a big enough ship to also fit Hardened Subsystems and keep doing its dirty job longer than most frigades despite being overridden. That said, I really don't feel confident in saying the Barbarian is as worth its 18 FleetPoints as the Stalker is worth its 20.

Really, the Barbiarian really feels like a mix between a Dominator (high armor, burn drive, lots of small ballistic mounts) and a Falcon (mobile, same FP range, no large mounts) but it sort of inherits the weaknesses from both, added to the fact the barbarian has very, very poor PD arcs to the back, meaning Salamanders absolutely neuter it, even with PDAI.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 01:28:19 PM by Arcagnello »
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Ali

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #218 on: November 02, 2020, 02:02:49 PM »

ah if its just balistic to composite then great! :)  ( as long as no nerf's!! )

i look at some of the other cap ships with their cool "pd batteries" and compared on that front the infernus seems to lack a little :(

+ for me personally the infernus just isn't deadly / intimidating enough..

i come across 1 in my paragon and a few seconds later, it's toast :( ( i'll have some aurora's with me as well so addmitidly its not like its a fair fight even if it was buffed but still )

I haven't played starsector in ages ( waiting on the update so maybe with the changes since things may be different - will see )

Maybe this year Santa will hide a "mod-infernus" behind a console command! - i can but dream! ;p

« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 02:06:22 PM by Ali »
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Arcagnello

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #219 on: November 02, 2020, 02:10:01 PM »

ah if its just balistic to composite then great! :)  ( as long as no nerf's!! )

i look at some of the other cap ships with their cool "pd batteries" and compared on that front the infernus seems to lack a little :(

+ for me personally the infernus just isn't deadly / intimidating enough..

i come across 1 in my paragon and a few seconds later, it's toast :( ( i'll have some aurora's with me as well so addmitidly its not like its a fair fight even if it was buffed but still )

I haven't played starsector in ages ( waiting on the update so maybe with the changes since things may be different - will see )

Maybe this year Santa will hide a "mod-infernus" behind a console command! - i can but dream! ;p

The Paragon is litterally DESIGNED to kill ships like the Infernus, wich have bad shield ratios, lower weapon ranges and can't even run away when pressured, not to mention a Paragon is a logistical nightmare to carry around the sector while the Infernus has very, very attractive maintenance/fuel consumption stats for how much firepower it can field, not to mention the converted refinery ship is part of that rare, rare breed of self sufficient capital ships that can easily go around the sector by themselves with just their own cargo and fuel capacity.


Edit: Speaking of said converted refinery ship Dark.Revenant, have you considered the option of actually introducing the ship the Infernus is converted from as a utility ship? A huge (and I quote) harvester, salvage barge and refinery that carries cargo, fuel, a salvage gantry and maybe even helps with fuel efficiency across the entire fleet would make for a very attractive ship to have in a fleet!
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 02:15:52 PM by Arcagnello »
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Chairman Suryasari

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #220 on: November 02, 2020, 05:07:13 PM »

The big fuel capacity of the infernus is so useful for people like me who always have 11 capital in the end game, it's easily the best ship for saturation bombardment and raid.
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Chairman Suryasari

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #221 on: November 02, 2020, 05:08:38 PM »

Renegade-class have better change killing Paragon with a lot of small EMP missile.
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Arcagnello

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #222 on: November 14, 2020, 04:09:38 AM »

Edit: Speaking of said converted refinery ship Dark.Revenant, have you considered the option of actually introducing the ship the Infernus is converted from as a utility ship? A huge (and I quote) harvester, salvage barge and refinery that carries cargo, fuel, a salvage gantry and maybe even helps with fuel efficiency across the entire fleet would make for a very attractive ship to have in a fleet!

Incidentally, I've recently acquired a couple of Starlifters and I'm pretty sure that' where the Infernus came from considering the hull is the same, it's got most of the small weapon mounts in the same spots and also has 3 fighter bays :)
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Retry

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #223 on: November 14, 2020, 09:42:48 AM »

Uh, the Starlifter's hull is nothing like the Infernus's hull.  They're from 2 different mods, and different authors.
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Arcagnello

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Re: [0.9.1a] Underworld 1.4.5
« Reply #224 on: November 14, 2020, 10:14:01 AM »

The hull shape and size is almost identical, without the various pirate add-ons, it's got three fighter bays obviously meant for drones and the Infernus already comes with built in drones, the burn level is identical and the cargo/fuel storage is close too. All it's missing is the infernus cannon, for obvious reasons. It may be from a different mod but the similarities are too many to ignore.
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