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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] DynaSector 1.4.7  (Read 236459 times)

Cyan Leader

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2016, 09:12:01 PM »

What is the problem with a faction being "broken and overpowered"?
You can just, you know, not use their stuff. It's always fun to have challenging opponents.
I have issues with broken, OP and low quality mods being mixed in with the best of the best
And all but Templars do "challenging opponents" wrong, thus leading the player to obtaining the broken, OP ships and making the game a freaking joke

If you don't like them don't use them. If you think the ships/weapons are OP then don't use them.

When I play Dark Souls I know I have the option of getting the Drake Sword and trivializing the entire early game, but I don't.
When I play Sonic I know I have the option of getting the emeralds super quick and trivializing the entire game using Super Sonic, but I don't.
When I play Valkyria Chronicles I know I have the option to scout rush everything and A rank every mission super easily, but I don't.
When I play Ace Combat once I unlock the Falken I know I have the option to crush every enemy with its laser, but I don't.

Self regulation is the best mechanic. This is one of the reasons why RPG is such a popular genre, people with all skill levels can play and enjoy them because you can regulate the difficulty of those games by how much you grind. Neutrino and other OP factions like Approlight present more options and more interesting opponents to fight, this is something that the so called "best of the best" mods lack (apart from IBB stuff) because they are tied to vanilla balance. I'm OK with that, but don't go around saying people shouldn't support other factions because you can't control yourself when presented with their weapons/ships. We all know that running an OP fleet gets boring very quickly.

Even using their stuff can be fun if you are using their destroyers against fleets of cruisers and capitals or playing the game solo-ship.
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Mr. Nobody

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2016, 11:11:52 PM »

Neutrino is OP? I always found they die far too easily if anything manages to go around the shield, maybe I just suck but that would also means their AI sucks, only had problems in one on one fights since I couldn't really go around the shield (salamandersand Achilles be blessed for that though)

Edit:
Except for the Unsung but that is supposed to be a special ship hidden in the system Nowhere near the planet Bumf... somewhere in Nevada
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 11:18:07 PM by Mr. Nobody »
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2016, 12:14:58 AM »

If you don't like them don't use them. If you think the ships/weapons are OP then don't use them.

Exactly! You can't ask DR to spend dozens of hours of work to integrate make a mod he don't like the balance of, and forever maintain that compatibility through all changes and versions updates.  ;)
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2016, 01:56:42 AM »

It's a public repo.  If you want support, just fork and make a pull request.  Deathfly might be doing that soon.
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Mr. Nobody

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2016, 02:57:47 AM »

It's a public repo.  If you want support, just fork and make a pull request.  Deathfly might be doing that soon.

Question: what does the dynasector support entail?
If I understood correctly it allows for randomized variants, right? Meaning that any ship can mount pretty much whatever it wants (well, what dynasector rolls I guess), am I correct in that statement?

If so why there is a need to "support" a mod? Couldn't dynasector just say "ok, this is a weapon, it comes from mod X, I will mostly install it on ships from that mod though I can also put it on any other ship provided that certain stuff is happening (markets being near? Recent fights?)"

Unless the whole "know what role is fulfilled by that weapon" thing must be "hardcoded".
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2016, 03:11:32 AM »

Yeah... If computers where actually intelligent it would be that easy right?
Too bad you have to spoon feed them with all the exact roles, availability, availability to other factions, synergies, usual usage cases, quirks, etc of every single weapons and every single ships from every single integrated faction, plus make sure all hull files are compliant with the randomizer particular requirements. Not even mentioning it also usually entails checking that every weapon/system scripts of a mod are fully compatible with every other mods' scripts.
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Deathfly

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2016, 03:27:49 AM »

It's a public repo.  If you want support, just fork and make a pull request.  Deathfly might be doing that soon.

Soon™ due to I got a little more busier in these days.

It's a public repo.  If you want support, just fork and make a pull request.  Deathfly might be doing that soon.

Question: what does the dynasector support entail?
If I understood correctly it allows for randomized variants, right? Meaning that any ship can mount pretty much whatever it wants (well, what dynasector rolls I guess), am I correct in that statement?

If so why there is a need to "support" a mod? Couldn't dynasector just say "ok, this is a weapon, it comes from mod X, I will mostly install it on ships from that mod though I can also put it on any other ship provided that certain stuff is happening (markets being near? Recent fights?)"

Unless the whole "know what role is fulfilled by that weapon" thing must be "hardcoded".

Long story short, this thing is much more complex then you thought. It got a rating system and a ban list to make less *** randomized variants (like a Paragon with shield bypass) and let the factions more likely to stick on its own theme (like less templar ships/weapons in a pirate fleet).
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Mr. Nobody

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2016, 05:45:44 AM »

Couldn't all that be done under the ship files or in a separate .csv (to name one) file attached to the mod (at least for things like availability, bad hullmods and weapon roles)?

Second: could be possible to create some sort of neural network (either outside DynaSector for development or inside it for on-the fly learning at the expense of computing power) to have a system that can automatically assign roles to weapons?

The "first" second method sounds like a very cubersome way and not 100% reliable (but automated), the "second" second method requires a lot of computing power (and we all know what JVM does to the computer memory), the first one is more work for modders but fairly reliable.

Also, what are the hull files "particular requirements"? And wouldn't the whole "script compatible with one another" cause a crash anyway most of the times (and thus be the mod's fault rather than DynaSector's)?
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2016, 06:20:40 AM »

If you have the skills and the hundreds of hours of free time to code that , feel free to grab the repo and fork your own branches.
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Mr. Nobody

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2016, 06:57:27 AM »

If you have the skills and the hundreds of hours of free time to code that , feel free to grab the repo and fork your own branches.

You have no idea how much i'd love to do so but i cannot recognize a "hello word" anymore if someone slapped me in the face with it.
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Cyan Leader

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2016, 08:43:38 AM »

If you don't like them don't use them. If you think the ships/weapons are OP then don't use them.

Exactly! You can't ask DR to spend dozens of hours of work to integrate make a mod he don't like the balance of, and forever maintain that compatibility through all changes and versions updates.  ;)

I don't recall asking DR to do anything. I'm just arguing that some non vanilla-balanced mods are worth being supported, if that happens or not is not the point.

The only thing I'd like to ask is a fork with the SS+ skills, but people have made that request already.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2016, 09:00:08 AM »

Mr. Nobody, don't suggest programming principles that you don't understand.

A neural network type of system is best used, currently, for pattern-matching.  Due to the nature of weapons in this game, there would be too many statistical exceptions; it is simply not possible to create one to "figure out" a weapon role with any degree of accuracy, even if we had API hooks for more statistics.  What you're thinking of is AI.

You could theoretically pull the requirement for integration out of DynaSector and into individual mods.  However, a ton of scripts would need to be redone for csvs to seed them rather than an internal enum or whatever.  Plus, it would be a logistical nightmare due to the fact that the main spreadsheet is an O(n^2) size - a row for every ship/weapon, and a column for every faction.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2016, 09:33:32 AM »

I don't recall asking DR to do anything. I'm just arguing that some non vanilla-balanced mods are worth being supported, if that happens or not is not the point.
And again, I'm reminding you that until someone else create their own fork to integrate whatever faction they like, the only mods "worth being supported" are the ones DR deem worthy to, and apparently his criteria are different than yours.

While you didn't explicitly asked for anything, you implied that (every?) decently made faction mods could be integrated regardless of balance, and then let people pick their choice. But things don't work that way: not only doing so would represent an inordinate amount of work, but the maintenance workload of the mod would also increase exponentially with each supported faction. Like with SS+, there are only so many factions that can be supported at once before the mod becomes a second job to keep working (precisely what happened to SS+).

Even if you don't personally think every factions should be supported, your argument is strongly misleading in that direction.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 09:42:08 AM by Tartiflette »
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Mr. Nobody

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2016, 10:24:56 AM »

enum

Aaannd here i'm out of my area of expertise (Applied Nothing). Although looking at a guide online i can't for the life of me discern the difference between it and just setting a constant but that's not the point of the post.

For the NN thing, well, i only know that stuff goes in, magic happens, results come out (thought it could say something along the lines of "this weapon has big KE damage and low fire rate, most similar weapons seem to be used for this role, thus i can assume this weapon has this role.

Debating whether to delete my "contribution" (ignoramus talk about stuff he knows absolutely nothing of #toomanytocount) or leaving it for "entertainment" value.

Ktnxbye i guess

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Cyan Leader

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Re: [0.7.2a] DynaSector 1.0.2
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2016, 10:40:10 AM »

I don't recall asking DR to do anything. I'm just arguing that some non vanilla-balanced mods are worth being supported, if that happens or not is not the point.
the only mods "worth being supported" are the ones DR deem worthy to

Not really, anyone can make a fork now to add support to other mods.
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