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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Fleet size affecting Speed  (Read 20942 times)

Greg

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Fleet size affecting Speed
« on: February 22, 2012, 07:01:56 AM »

I am not sure what everyone else thinks about this but I don't understand why an increase in the number of ships, with the same speed, causes a slowdown of the entire fleet. For example a single wing of Thunder fighters moves faster then a pair, despite the same speed on the campain map, am I missing something? If not, thoughts?
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Gear

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2012, 07:04:00 AM »

It's gonna be changed so the Fleet speed is the same as the slowest ship.

*edit* So I wasn't exactly sure about what I said so I went to look for the post about it and I got it abit wrong

Even more TL;DR: Fleet size reduces speed by too much!

Changed in the next version - lower of two values, minimum ship speed OR average speed with a size-based penalty. Significantly higher speeds for heavier fleets - adding a Condor to your fleet no longer slows it to a crawl.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 10:03:23 AM by Gear »
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Sordid

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2012, 07:05:20 AM »

Yeah, that makes much more sense.
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Greg

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2012, 07:07:07 AM »

Thanks, its the only gripe I have with the game so far. Bring on a horde of Tempests FTW.
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icepick37

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2012, 08:46:08 AM »

I am not sure what everyone else thinks about this but I don't understand why an increase in the number of ships, with the same speed, causes a slowdown of the entire fleet. For example a single wing of Thunder fighters moves faster then a pair, despite the same speed on the campain map, am I missing something? If not, thoughts?
The point is that you always move slower as a group since you have to coordinate your movements.

Not sure exactly how this is changing, but it will be MUCH better soon.
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Sordid

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 08:57:38 AM »

Eh, I'm not sure I buy that. Why should coordinating slow you down? The slowest guy simply flies and the rest of the fleet can take their time coordinating, because they can just catch up once they get into formation. Not that they even fly in formation, they just mill around aimlessly inside the green circle.
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icepick37

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2012, 09:17:01 AM »

Eh, I'm not sure I buy that. Why should coordinating slow you down? The slowest guy simply flies and the rest of the fleet can take their time coordinating, because they can just catch up once they get into formation. Not that they even fly in formation, they just mill around aimlessly inside the green circle.
Yeah, but what if you all have the same max speed? The leader can't just fly full bore b/c the others will never be able to follow him perfectly.
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Gear

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 10:04:07 AM »

Made a mistake, this is what's happening.

Even more TL;DR: Fleet size reduces speed by too much!

Changed in the next version - lower of two values, minimum ship speed OR average speed with a size-based penalty. Significantly higher speeds for heavier fleets - adding a Condor to your fleet no longer slows it to a crawl.
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Sordid

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2012, 10:13:44 AM »

Eh, I'm not sure I buy that. Why should coordinating slow you down? The slowest guy simply flies and the rest of the fleet can take their time coordinating, because they can just catch up once they get into formation. Not that they even fly in formation, they just mill around aimlessly inside the green circle.

Yeah, but what if you all have the same max speed? The leader can't just fly full bore b/c the others will never be able to follow him perfectly.

I guess a very slight penalty would be appropriate in such a case.
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icepick37

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2012, 10:15:43 AM »

Yes. So hopefully slight is the keyword in the new system.  :D
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arwan

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2012, 12:03:05 PM »

Eh, I'm not sure I buy that. Why should coordinating slow you down? The slowest guy simply flies and the rest of the fleet can take their time coordinating, because they can just catch up once they get into formation. Not that they even fly in formation, they just mill around aimlessly inside the green circle.

this is how i see fleet movement. it revolves around the slowest ship. modern fleets dont slow to a crawl because there are 20 ships in them. they merely move as fast as the slowest ship.

so im reserving judgment on the new system until i see it.. that being said i doubt it will make a difference for the way i play.. so slow as it is now... slow for me after the new mechanism comes to the game as well.. but we will see. like i said.
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Alex
You won't be able to refit fighters and bombers at all. They're designed/balanced around having a particular set of weapons and would be very broken if you could change it. Which ones you pick for your fleet -out of quite a few that are available- is the choice here, not how they're outfitted.

Tarran

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2012, 12:30:17 PM »

Personally, I don't see how coordination effects the max speed at all. I can see it effecting the acceleration or turning without a doubt, but not the max speed. Think about it, maneuvering does not lower the actual max speed of ships, it lowers how fast they reach that speed because everyone needs to turn at the same time or speed up at the same rate to avoid being separated and they need to reform the formation. The only case where the max speed would be reduced is if everyone was constantly flying back and forth from left to right of the fleet and the leader wants a perfect formation.

If you have five cars with similar max speeds going down a road with four intersections, they don't slow down when they all reach the exact same speed, they slow down when they have to turn corners and wait for others or when waiting for others to get up to speed. If they're all in formation and all can go at least 100mph, what's stopping them from going 100mph?
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Zarcon

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2012, 12:37:27 PM »

Personally, I don't see how coordination effects the max speed at all. I can see it effecting the acceleration or turning without a doubt, but not the max speed. Think about it, maneuvering does not lower the actual max speed of ships, it lowers how fast they reach that speed because everyone needs to turn at the same time or speed up at the same rate to avoid being separated and they need to reform the formation. The only case where the max speed would be reduced is if everyone was constantly flying back and forth from left to right of the fleet and the leader wants a perfect formation.

If you have five cars with similar max speeds going down a road with four intersections, they don't slow down when they all reach the exact same speed, they slow down when they have to turn corners and wait for others or when waiting for others to get up to speed. If they're all in formation and all can go at least 100mph, what's stopping them from going 100mph?

Hmm, good points.  I guess one possibility is that there are ambient asteroids out there in the system map that we cannot see from our perspective but that the ships have to navigate through/around (my personal opinion), or maybe it is just a game mechanic that was put in place to give us incentive to have a streamlined fleet during this portion of the alpha.   ;)

That is all just speculation on my part of course, but the good news is that the movement penalty will at least be modified/reduced in the next patch/release.   ;D
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Thaago

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2012, 12:40:27 PM »

On a related note, is there any rationale behind why fighters should slow down fleet speed if they are stored in hangers? I would think that only fighters that didn't fit in hangers would matter. Well, I'm sure lots will change.
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icepick37

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Re: Fleet size affecting Speed
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2012, 12:46:15 PM »

Space craft are not cars.

Imagine you have a fleet of two ships. The first one takes off and starts going at max speed. The second one takes off at around the same time but in a slightly different direction. It course corrects, but flying the wrong direction has put it just slightly behind. Now imagine this happening fairly frequently since there's no way to match courses perfectly, I don't care who or what you are. Then imagine doing this over really huge distances. Eventually you are going to get separated just by virtue of the little course corrections constantly putting you behind.

On a related note, is there any rationale behind why fighters should slow down fleet speed if they are stored in hangers? I would think that only fighters that didn't fit in hangers would matter. Well, I'm sure lots will change.
This is a good point.
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