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Author Topic: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring  (Read 7928 times)

Wyvern

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Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« on: January 16, 2016, 10:54:15 AM »

With very few exceptions, the ideal use of a drone system is to set it on free roam when the battle starts and then forget about it.  This does not make for interesting gameplay.  Here are two suggestions for ways to improve on that.

Option one: the drones are passive, and the ship system works with them in some way.  For example, the Tempest might get a system that dumps all its flux into an active drone - overloading the drone (and thus almost certainly exposing it to enemy fire and killing it), but leaving the parent ship flux free.  Or a Shepherd might get a system that just temporarily boosts drone damage output.

Option two: the drones are much more potent, but have a strict time limit once released (edit: either auto-returning when the time's up, or just blowing up where they are, or maybe even converting into missiles).  For example, the Gemini might get larger drones outfitted with flak and light assault guns - but they only last for 20 seconds after launch, leaving the system as a sort of super-sized "flare" device that's capable of shooting down fighters and missiles.

Or, of course, you could combine the two; for example, the Astral might get its current PD drone system as a passive effect, with an active system that launches a handful of time-limited versions of the Tempest's terminator drone.

Comments - and other drone related ideas - are welcome.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 07:41:52 PM by Wyvern »
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Megas

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2016, 11:06:26 AM »

I only set Terminator and Borer drones on free roam.  I might put LMG drones on free roam with my Heron flagship if it is brawling and needs to overload the target quickly.  All other drones stay in orbit; they die too quickly and easily if allowed to roam.

Stronger drones will be nice, though it would be silly if they became stronger than fighters.  Fighters are weak and sad.
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Cik

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2016, 06:12:18 PM »

drones should really be their own thing. at present most of them are basically just fighters, except you don't lose crew.

sure, drone tenders probably aren't as plentiful, and most of them aren't great ships either, however just to avoid drones and fighters feeling too samey they should be differentiated.

so, what can drones do that fighters can't?

the answer, of course, is suicidal behavior, and melee attacks.

melee you say? in space? sure. specialize some drones (borers, for instance, have a nice name for it) as things that grab onto enemy ships and start welding through the hull, or clamp on and explode as a HEAT charge, or whatever.

the other thing you could probably make them is ablative shields. add a few "formations" for them (like line, wall, etc) and put them in front of their master ship as ablative armor.

fighters and drones are sort of alike but the lack of a human crew can differentiate their role a ton, if that's the direction we want to go in. it makes no sense to me that fighters and drones are basically the same; if drones are smart enough to fly fighters, why have a human crew at all?
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Megas

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2016, 06:25:49 PM »

The main difference between drones and fighters is fighters can be sent to capture points; drones cannot.  When I use fighters, I may deploy a fighter wing to capture a point.  Drones, at least renewable drones like the Terminator, are like detachable ship weapons.  The Tempest can have up to seven weapons; two of them happen to be built-in IR Pulse Laser and Burst PD that can detach from the Tempest.
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Aeson

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2016, 08:22:41 PM »

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so, what can drones do that fighters can't?

the answer, of course, is suicidal behavior, and melee attacks.
"Suicidal behavior," which I assume means "crashing into enemy ships to cause damage," just turns drones into a missile system. Not even a very good missile system if, as you suggest, the drones were to function by actually latching onto the target before doing whatever they did to damage the target, because if you require something to latch onto a target then it needs to impact the target slowly enough that the thing you're trying to attach isn't too badly damaged by the collision to function correctly, which implies an approach at low relative velocities. Which, in turn, means that your drone is, from the perspective of its target, an easy target for the target's point defense systems. Just use a real missile and be done with it already.

As far as "melee attacks" go, aren't things like Vulcan Cannons and Light Machine Guns short-ranged enough? Do we really need completely impractical weapon systems like the buzz droids of Revenge of the Sith or the octopus things of The Matrix, especially when the supposed "cool" factor of melee spaceships really isn't there since all we're likely to see is at most some blinking lights and small bumps on the surface of the target (consider how small drones and fighters become relative to even a small carrier like the Gemini when docking; even if the drones don't shrink when attaching to a target vessel, all you'd see is the drone sprite overlaid on top of the sprite of the target ship, maybe with some blinking around the borders of the drone sprite)? As far as the practicality of the system goes, cutting through armor-plated hull rapidly enough to be a useful attack in a battle is unlikely to be significantly less damaging than just blowing a hole in the hull with a standard weapon; cutting through armor-plated hull more slowly so as to avoid damaging high-value ship systems (to improve the salvage value or make it less expensive to put the vessel into service within your fleet) is unlikely to be fast enough to have an appreciable impact on the battle and as such would significantly increase both the risk to which your ships were exposed and the likelihood that the crews of the targeted vessels would be able to mount an effective response of some kind to the attack. Then there's the issue that a drone which not only needs to attach to the target but also function at a more complex level than "explode violently" suffers from being at least as easy a target for the point defenses of the ship being attacked as the suicide drone that for whatever reason has to latch onto its target before exploding.

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the other thing you could probably make them is ablative shields. add a few "formations" for them (like line, wall, etc) and put them in front of their master ship as ablative armor.
It would seem to me that shield drones should have a reasonably high chance of blocking shots emanating from the drone carrier; unguided weapons fired by the drone carrier at nearby hostile ships have to follow more or less the same trajectories as those fired by nearby hostile ships attempting to shoot the drone carrier, and there's very little evidence in Starsector to support the idea that ships can coordinate shields well enough for the shots to not be blocked.

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The Tempest can have up to seven weapons; two of them happen to be built-in IR Pulse Laser and Burst PD that can detach from the Tempest.
I think you mean five. Tempests only have three weapon mounts - two medium energy and one small missile. Regardless of how you outfit the Tempest, you're not going to have more than three weapons on the Tempest and another two on its drone. Those two medium mounts may be worth about as much as four small mounts, but they're still only one weapon each.

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With very few exceptions, the ideal use of a drone system is to set it on free roam when the battle starts and then forget about it
I disagree. Most drone systems make for reasonably effective point defenses for the drone carrier if kept in the holding pattern, die quickly if allowed to roam free, and usually have a limited number of available replacements. The better use of most drone systems is therefore to allow the drone carrier to put something other than point defense weapons into its weapon mounts.

I personally feel that drones are fine the way they are.
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Wyvern

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2016, 10:25:35 PM »

cutting through armor-plated hull more slowly so as to avoid damaging high-value ship systems (to improve the salvage value or make it less expensive to put the vessel into service within your fleet) is unlikely to be fast enough to have an appreciable impact on the battle and as such would significantly increase both the risk to which your ships were exposed and the likelihood that the crews of the targeted vessels would be able to mount an effective response of some kind to the attack.
Oh, that's a good idea!  Anything that gives you some more control over what ship(s?) are available for boarding would be a very nice improvement, and having it come at some significant risk is an obvious requirement.

It would seem to me that shield drones should have a reasonably high chance of blocking shots emanating from the drone carrier; unguided weapons fired by the drone carrier at nearby hostile ships have to follow more or less the same trajectories as those fired by nearby hostile ships attempting to shoot the drone carrier, and there's very little evidence in Starsector to support the idea that ships can coordinate shields well enough for the shots to not be blocked.
You're forgetting one key mechanic: friendly fighters (and drones) don't block your shots.  Shield drones work; there are several mods that have used them in one form or another.

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With very few exceptions, the ideal use of a drone system is to set it on free roam when the battle starts and then forget about it
I disagree. Most drone systems make for reasonably effective point defenses for the drone carrier if kept in the holding pattern, die quickly if allowed to roam free, and usually have a limited number of available replacements. The better use of most drone systems is therefore to allow the drone carrier to put something other than point defense weapons into its weapon mounts.
Oh, okay.  So you set it in holding pattern and then forget about it.  That's one fewer button press; clearly a far more engaging option... wait.  No, it's exactly the same thing - the system isn't interesting to use in battle.

Balance-wise, drones are fine as is; I have no complaints there.  I bring this up mostly because of the recent "it's boring to fight phase ships" thing; well, it's similarly boring to use any of the current drone-based ship systems.  They're just there, and they just do their thing, and in most cases they might as well be a passive part of the ship.
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Megas

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2016, 06:13:34 AM »

@ Aeson:  Yes, I counted medium weapons as two for some reason.  So, up to three on Tempest, two on the drone.
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Inventor Raccoon

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2016, 06:21:26 AM »

I personally think that drones should always be something you can keep online to serve as personal fighter escorts. Drones that only last for a small amount of time either fall into "use whenever enemies are close" or "use whenever it's available". I'm all for systems that temporarily buff drones or add more, or even new ships having drones as passives and having a completely different system on top. Currently, drones really don't need to be toggleable, since they're generally only useful in either roaming or holding mode. So IMO, yes for 1, no for 2, yes for both combined.
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Wyvern

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2016, 10:14:38 AM »

Drones that only last for a small amount of time either fall into "use whenever enemies are close" or "use whenever it's available".
Maybe, maybe not.  Consider, for example, a system that launches temporary drones with light assault guns; you'd want to wait on launching them until your target was high on flux and their HE damage would be most useful.
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Inventor Raccoon

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2016, 12:40:03 PM »

Drones that only last for a small amount of time either fall into "use whenever enemies are close" or "use whenever it's available".
Maybe, maybe not.  Consider, for example, a system that launches temporary drones with light assault guns; you'd want to wait on launching them until your target was high on flux and their HE damage would be most useful.
Then why have the ship at all? If you're going to be using the drones in those specific circumstances, you might as well get a ship with some HE weapons. By the time you've activated the drones and they've gotten to the overloading ship, or if you're deploying them before they overload, it would have been much simpler to just pick a high payload ship and blast them.
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SpacePoliticianAndaZealot

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2016, 01:54:33 PM »

Some dedicated drone tenders would be nice. Take for example the one from Ironclads - works like a charm in a fleet setting.

Isn't setting the Heron's drones on freeroam a waste, since they won't be rebuilt and die too quickly anyways? (I keep them recalled unless it's an emergency)

The Terminator Drone is the most flexible drone, and the best performing overall. If I need PD, I order it to hold position - sweeps away pestering fighters, no problem. Need to quickly dispatch an exposed enemy? Set it on free roam so it can harass the said ship - having to focus on two targets simultaneously puts the enemy at a disadvantage.

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Megas

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2016, 02:16:25 PM »

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Isn't setting the Heron's drones on freeroam a waste, since they won't be rebuilt and die too quickly anyways? (I keep them recalled unless it's an emergency)
Generally, yes.  But, if player pilots a Heron, and needs a little extra firepower to win a tight flux war, or finish off an overloaded or crippled enemy, sending PD drones to attack an enemy at the right moment can help.  After the target is eliminated, recall the drones.
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Techhead

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2016, 02:22:36 PM »

The amateur game designer in me says: Give drones strong flux capacity and weak (or zero) regen, so that drones need to dock after a long sortie. Increase the speed some to compensate for having to run back and forth and/or their damage output to compensate for shorter engagement times. Maybe even dump the drones' flux to the mothership on docking to remove some of the deferred risk that offensive drones provide, but this might feel bad to the player*.

Overall, since drones can be immediately managed without going to the tactical map, present a drone system that rewards management.


* In comparison: Even though using the Gyrphon's missile forge multiple times in one battle was insanely powerful, players didn't enjoy tanking their CR by doing so.
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Toxcity

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2016, 03:47:36 PM »

I'm okay with how drones are at the moment. While most aren't as situational in battle as systems like High Energy Focus or Maneuvering Jets, they do add some strategy when outfitting ships. For example, the Tempest doesn't really need Point-Defense or Extended Shields due to the Terminator drone providing defense.
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Twogs

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Re: Drone Ship Systems Are Boring
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2016, 12:07:30 PM »

I think what we really miss is a real drone ship. No neither the shepard (which is a civilian-grade ship) nor the tempest (which is more or less a strong combat frigate with drone on top) are really drone ships.

I imagine something like a heavy destroyer/light cruiser (dubbed it the "Leto" in my mind) with two drones (dubbed "Artemis" and "Apollon"):

While the Artemis drone makes kinda heavy use of Emp and soft flux kinetic damage (kinda to the new EMP beam, i.e. everything has a "blue" theme), the Apollo beam would do high fragmentation damage (something like a scorcher beam, "red" theme)

The thing is neither of them would be good at overloading a shield or breaking armor. So alone they can't do anything. You would have to work together with them. Break the enemies shields, rip their armor open. Decide if you want a unified attack (which would mean Hold Pattern, every weapon would come from one side) to overwhelm ships with good shields, or spread out to bypass ships with a non 360° Shield, with the Armor problem still intact.
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