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Author Topic: Phase Mechanics Discussion  (Read 11416 times)

Schwartz

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Re: Phase Mechanics Discussion
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2015, 03:33:44 PM »

Phase ships are great (because powerful) to fly as a player and very survivable as NPC allies. They are however not fun to fight against, not solo and just marginally more so in a fleet setting. With such quick cloak- and decloak and a ship system that does not impair operation or movement in any way, phasing is effectively a god-button.

Fighting vs. a phase ship very rarely plays out differently than waiting for the enemy to peekaboo and to ultimately overload after you've had it in your crosshairs for quite a long while. There's nothing dynamic about it - you either have them pinned and get to kill them, or you don't and they continue to harass your fleet until they eventually escape.

I mentioned this before, I don't fault the AI at all for wanting to survive. The priorities are on point and it handles the phase ship pretty close to how it should. A change to the phase mechanics itself would be nice though. Slow phase-in and phase-out? Certain weapons such as EMP that can reach into the phase? Or how about full invisibility & you can still be hit while phased? Would certainly pave the way for some interesting weapons like AoE fireworks to mess with phase ships.
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MShadowy

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Re: Phase Mechanics Discussion
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2015, 05:46:27 PM »

I mentioned this before, I don't fault the AI at all for wanting to survive.

Well, I suppose this is largely academic in any case, since Alex evidently already has decided that the phase ship AI needed revisiting, but I, however, can fault the AI for this.

Particularly since the behavior in question appears to be of somewhat... dubious value for survival when the ship is in particular danger, and is more likely to result in particularly dangerous situations arising because the ship isn't contributing much to a fight.  That phase ships are largely a nuisance that you can mostly ignore until the rest of their fleet is sufficiently obliterated and that, when put in a position of singular peril, likely resulting from the fact that they can be mostly ignored until the rest of their fleet is sufficiently obliterated, they quite reliably huddle in p-space waiting to die is, in my estimation, a significant AI problem.

Because, ultimately, the purpose of the AI is not to survive, but to provide engaging opponents for the player to fight against and reliable enough allies to support their space murder hoboing; the defensiveness of the generic AI helps pull this off for (most) ships with shields but I contend the same cannot be said about phase ships.  That same defensiveness effectively neuters them.  I'm not saying that they shouldn't try to avoid damage, but rather that the way in which they try and do so makes them contribute significantly less (which ultimately is likely to put them in more danger) and, worse, makes them uninteresting to fight against--though it does make them very good roadblocks against other AI ships.  I don't think that's super desirable either, though, especially since in both ways (as a roadblock and as a target) it's a fairly reliable way to exploit the weaknesses of the AI.

Doing stuff which makes phase ships vulnerable while in phase or making them less immediately intangible might be something which can be used in conjunction with AI changes to reduce the exploitablity of the AI, but on it's own is, I would say, likely just to sidestep the problem and (depending on the option taken) excessively nerf phase ships and/or possibly end up punishing the player for not having/finding the right weapon to deal with annoying intangible spaceships.  Also, if memory serves, the actually invisible spaceships things already been tried and discarded, essentially because it was too much work making the AI pretend it didn't know the phasing ship was there and wasn't very compelling in any case.

Yeesh, this topic has kinda sent me off on a tear, hasn't it?  But this has been a thing annoying me about phase ships for a while now, so I guess it had to spill out some time.  Uh, sorry.
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Achataeon

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Re: Phase Mechanics Discussion
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2015, 11:27:56 PM »

*gasp*

The Flux Overcharge makes a comeback!?

Seriously hope that the flux coil overheating effect is the flux overcharge effect. On the flipside it could be the reverse; Exiting p-space would render your weapons weaker for a few seconds to let you phase coils take a breather.
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StarSchulz

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Re: Phase Mechanics Discussion
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2015, 11:28:22 PM »

Looking at that clip i couldn't help but notice that ship was twice as fast and maneuverable while phased. it also looked like there was a short re-phasing delay. that means these things will be TERRIFYING to fight against. [ much better!!!! ]

The last time i remember piloting the doom i remember it wasn't much of fun. i wonder what it will be like now?

Camael

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Re: Phase Mechanics Discussion
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2015, 11:55:46 PM »

Always considered phaseships to be intended as decloak-alphastrike-run away ships, so both a cool down on the cloak and a weapons nerfing would probably produce the opposite of the desired result. I'd go the exactly opposing way, making them hit harder when decloaking like a supercharge effect, or maybe have their gunfire pass shields/ignore parts of the armor in that situation to allow for surgical strikes against capships. To solve the boredom of wearing them down, the two ideas of having a higher flux build-up over a longer time and/or allowing for weapons to cause flux-damage at a reduced percentage probably would do it.

Special anti-phase weapons sound interesting but I'd say that's probably too much. Availability is not a good balancing mechanism right now, especially with the game's mod-friendly approach. Either You have the ubiquitous anti-phase missile (who has not thought of this one raise his hand... no one? I see...) and phaseships become worthless or You have something that makes them worthless or god-y depending on the rng...

Maybe add a ship-system that allows weapons to target phased ships to cause flux on them? Always available with the right skills, question would be the priorities of the player then? Would be interesting, as ships equipped thus could become a primary target, in turn, for phase-heavy fleets... not so much with a simple small missile as suggested, these could be spread out over 20 frigattes without losing much effectiveness...

One thing I noted in SS+ is that the rip-off phase-frigatte (Scythe?) does decloak to actually attack quite often, and in turn, it dies. It's not so much of a bother to fight, but the phase mechanic thus does not do it much good in a.i. hands. Maybe creating a real hunter-killer-craft should include a hard flux build-up over time and some flux-hitting mechanic for outside ships combined with weapons designed to vent at the same time. So excess flux is converted to extra-firepower, in turn losing some instead of gaining even more through attacking and could therefore improve defense and incentivise offense at the same time?

Ugh. Phaseship-mechanics. I so love these things and yet hunting them down is suuuper-annoying. Also, maybe find a way to force them to uncloak for a while before retreating? Losing cr on a chase just because these things can run away phased whenever they want is a I-want-to-obliterate-my-keyboard-moment every time...
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Achataeon

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Re: Phase Mechanics Discussion
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2016, 02:05:42 AM »

Fair points you've raised there, especially on the ambush-ey sort of things you can do with Phase ships. But giving them shield or armor piercing? Waaay too OP. Even balancing such a thing is a massive *** to get right.

The only thing I remember that has shield piercing weapons come from the Exigency mod. But that one is a pain to aim, ridiculously low muzzle velocity and is pretty freakin rare. So there's that.

Interesting to know what effect that glowing phase coil has, if it has any at all.
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Serenitis

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Re: Phase Mechanics Discussion
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2016, 03:12:41 AM »

I've always thought it might be nice if proximity charges had a chance to detonate on a phased ship and do minimal damage, but add some flux.
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ChaseBears

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Re: Phase Mechanics Discussion
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2016, 04:14:48 AM »

I find phase ships to be really unfun to fight.   I'd prefer it if they had to commit a little more, or at least the 'blink phase to avoid shots' behavior cost them more significantly in flux.  Something like a fixed flux amount to initiate phase.

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Achataeon

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Re: Phase Mechanics Discussion
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2016, 04:51:12 AM »

Entering p-space DOES raise flux. Although it is a rather insignificant amount. IIRC the Afflictor has the lowest phase cloak activation of the three phase ships in vanilla
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Unbroken

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Re: Phase Mechanics Discussion
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2016, 08:19:55 AM »

One aspect I don't think has been mentioned is that the phase cloak system is immune to malfunction (in my experience), whether from low CR, EMP or hull damage despite being a piece of high-tech wizardry built directly into a ship's hull. As they stand right now, phase ships that duck and hide for their full CR timer would be a little less irritating if their cloak began to malfunction, much as their weapons and engines would, although I admit this doesn't really address the root of the issue.

I've personally not used phase ships a lot, since the good ones devour supplies while the rest are usually difficult for me to obtain; by the time I can, I don't see a need to use them anymore. As for the AI, I prefer having it soak damage in ships that it is better suited for.

E: Might also be worth looking at how long phase ships can stay cloaked for. Afflictors can stay submerged (cloak and hold until overload, with base flux cap) for about 24s straight, while Shades can handle almost 20s and a Doom can for 19s.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 08:29:34 AM by Unbroken »
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Megas

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Re: Phase Mechanics Discussion
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2016, 09:49:15 AM »

I use Afflictor and Doom as upgraded Lasher and Falcon that pulse phase cloak as a Paragon does with Fortress Shield.

If I want an alpha-strike missile platform, I use either Aurora or Gryphon.
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