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Author Topic: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.  (Read 9196 times)

Linnis

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For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« on: December 31, 2015, 12:27:59 AM »

Thoes enemies sitting at 2-3k range and dont wana come near your captial ship of mass destruction, but also dont want to run away and make you spend a long time chasing them down?


Bring some extra ships, ventures for cargo and also a few fighter wings or what not, whatever you want.

Deploy enough of your auxillary trash and the enemies will decide to retreat.

Then hit escape and finish the battle.

(tho they might decide to battle you in a second round +_+)



Also the slower way to is bring a fast frigate tailored to 1v1 chasing down targets, and deploy that and use it to kill the remaining enemies. (but its hard when they are lvl 20 timid officers +_+)
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Weltall

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2015, 12:55:26 AM »

The only time I have trouble with timid officers is when they have fast carriers. They just love to keep backing up, since the carrier AI mixed with the timid personality, makes them stay even more away. Wolf is one of my fav frigates, so in the beginning I always have at least two of them too. I wait for it to charge 3 teleports and approach them and do a triple teleport to them. When my fleet gets bigger and I get a carrier, I have at least 2 Thunder fighters and honestly on my vanilla play I had 4 at a point. Timid officers get all panicked when attacked from many things. In larger battles it does not matter. Timid officers escape as soon as they can, or else they get wiped :3
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Linnis

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2015, 01:26:54 AM »

Yes, I meant for players who exclusively use one ship for battle.
(its the only way to win nexerelin games as sometimes you need to defeat multiple largestest of the fleets in a row, and often nonstop)

In normal vanilla play its not a problem at all ofcourse :D
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Megas

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2015, 06:51:44 AM »

That does not work if you get the Timids (and/or carriers) early enough and the enemies left are numerous.  For example, enemy ship #10 out of 70.  If you deploy more ships while the enemies still has many ships left, they simply deploy more to overwhelm your ships.  For example, my overpowered Paragon normally fights from four to eight enemy ships at a time.  If I deploy extra ships to go after the Timids, the enemy deploys more so that my Paragon and/or my other ships now face more than a dozen ships instead.

I solo most fleets with one ship, and my fleet is set up like a toolbox.  Pick the one ship best suited for the job and do it.

I think most carriers hang back without Timid, although Timid makes them even more cowardly.

I rarely chase ships because others will steal my point, and I do not want the enemy powered-up even more from that.  I simply sit on my point and let them run out of CR and break their engines.  It is boring but optimal.  I have taken bathroom breaks while waiting.  I may chase down carriers near the end of a battle, when I think they are the only ones left.
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Inventor Raccoon

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2015, 07:16:07 AM »

Have specialized scout/hunter ships is pretty useful, such as the Tempest, or a Unstable Injector Wolf.
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Megas

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2015, 08:22:46 AM »

Have specialized scout/hunter ships is pretty useful, such as the Tempest, or a Unstable Injector Wolf.
That just raises total deployment cost at best or gets them killed in big fights and/or brings even more enemies to my flagship at worst.

In the biggest extended battles, player can fight more than a hundred ships.  With only one flagship on the field, the ships come in waves.  If I deploy all, they still have plenty of additional ships to deploy and more than match what I have.

Sometimes, I can get away with deploying an Eagle, Medusa, Hyperion, or other faster flagship.  If the situation is dire enough to warrant the Paragon, anyone else that gets deployed is likely to die.  I could deploy all, but that is why I bring a Paragon, because it is overpowered enough that it (under player control) can handle everything thrown at it.

I save frigates like Tempest for pursuits, where they are more useful.
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Inventor Raccoon

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2015, 11:35:17 AM »

Have specialized scout/hunter ships is pretty useful, such as the Tempest, or a Unstable Injector Wolf.
That just raises total deployment cost at best or gets them killed in big fights and/or brings even more enemies to my flagship at worst.

In the biggest extended battles, player can fight more than a hundred ships.  With only one flagship on the field, the ships come in waves.  If I deploy all, they still have plenty of additional ships to deploy and more than match what I have.

Sometimes, I can get away with deploying an Eagle, Medusa, Hyperion, or other faster flagship.  If the situation is dire enough to warrant the Paragon, anyone else that gets deployed is likely to die.  I could deploy all, but that is why I bring a Paragon, because it is overpowered enough that it (under player control) can handle everything thrown at it.

I save frigates like Tempest for pursuits, where they are more useful.
But you don't always need to deploy said ship at the beginning of a battle. Midway through the fight, when you've already blown through the enemy's main attackers, you can deploy the ship from the sides and assign it to intercept, or take control yourself.
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Megas

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2015, 12:18:32 PM »

I consider "main attackers" the entire enemy fleet aside from carriers.  By the time they are dead, the fight is about over and I can claim victory anytime.  Also, just because ships are Timid does not mean they are defenseless.  A few times, I had Eagles (or even Onslaughts, but those cannot run away effectively if chased down) as Timid, and it can outrange and kite smaller ships.  I do not want to risk deploying faster but fragile ships because I lack patience.

I do not see the need to deploy reinforcements when 1) Enemy deploys more ships than you can to counter yours and 2) I can outlast the Timids' peak performance/CR by waiting minutes until theirs run out.

Outlasting opponents I cannot otherwise reach is the most efficient solution, in terms of resources (supplies and CR) spent.  It is a waste of time, though.  Losing more time instead of supplies and CR is the lesser of two evils, despite the boredom.
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RawCode

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2016, 12:10:25 AM »

caption obvious thread...


large ships expected to have escort
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TaLaR

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2016, 12:38:52 AM »

As Megas has shown, current system gives strong incentives to deploy single ship.

Maybe AI should just consider player the ultimate threat and always do max deployment. Being able to force AI do minimal deployment for easier fight feels like an exploit.
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Megas

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2016, 06:09:47 AM »

Even at 500 battle size, AI only has 300 points at best.  However, the current system (with 25 max ships) encourages me to use single ship.  I have five or six ships (ranging from Medusa to Paragon) I use as flagships to solo various fleets, five or six frigates to mop up ships during pursuit, and the rest are Atlas (for looting after chain-battling in hostile space), tugs (so burn speed is not too slow), and empty spaces for new ships acquired from boarding.  Basically, half of my fleet is tied up in support and new acquisitions.  Of the remaining fighting half, half of that half is reserved to mop up pursuit, and the other half is optimized to solo fleets.

Boarding is very lucrative.  I only buy ships if I try to force a market to spawn Hyperion or other specific rare ship.  Otherwise, boarding ships is much cheaper than buying them thanks to combination of marines worth about 250 credits each (from black markets with zero stability), free leftover supplies looted from combat, and Special Ops perk.

If AI will deploy all and I cannot, I will lower battle size to 100 to level the playing field and stop their shenanigans.  I originally raised battle size to 500 so I can "deploy all" massive fleets (because it is fun throwing overwhelming fleets back at the AI), but seeing that is impractical or impossible now, I may reset battle size.


P.S.  If my flagship gets overwhelmed so badly, I will drive it into one of the bottom corners of the map and make my last stand there.  Most AI ships (non-fighters without Burn Drive) has great difficulty fighting there, and usually refuse to approach the corner.  Also, your flagship cannot be flanked when there are walls that prevent the enemy (except fighters) from doing so.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 06:14:38 AM by Megas »
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Weltall

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2016, 03:02:26 PM »

With the 5% change, boarding to me felt impossible. I never got a single capital ship with that %, with the only exception being an Astral, but that was when I had like 5 marines with me. You can imagine it did not work. I destroyed countless fleets in long hours of both vanilla and modded play, and no capital ship. Sadly with the cruisers it was alike. I did manage to capture a Heron if it counts, which of course remained in the back most of the time.

I am though one of the people that find ships in game, be it vanilla or modded, under-priced. Then again currently the economy is kind of broken, so I do not know how I will feel when prices will go at times to hell and at times to heaven. Still even if it was not like that, from the moment the player gets at least an Atlas, trading becomes easy. I bought my XIV Onslaught at around 350-400 thousand and the other two Onslaughts about 250-300 thousand $pacebuck, in vanilla game. Paying about a million for these three, felt so cheap, since trading for a while made me that much.

Even for people that save before a battle and then repeat it, it boils down to luck if you will manage to roll for the ship you want, or not. Spending an hour reloading the game in hopes to get the ship you want, or spending an hour flying around to make $pacebucks and buy a ship.. I would go with the trader path.

Question; Why deploy a single ship and have a dragged on battle vs deploying a handful of them and finishing the battle fast? I can see a reason if the player wants to have fun once in a while, destroying a fleet by himself. Or maybe when you see yourself surrounded in the map and you want to keep the rest of the fleet fresh for the next battles. But why otherwise?
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Linnis

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2016, 10:42:02 PM »

@megas

Thats what fighters are for, replace-able distractions.

Two carriers + 4-6 thunder wings. Carriers rallied to a conrner and some control over your fighters so they dont go off fighting alone can allow your paragon conquest to deal out max damage without too many enemies ganging you. Open the map to make sure no enemies slip by and rally thunders to intercept. Even against two caps with rank 20 and a few escorts, with help of thunders and correct positioning you can easily take em down.

Use hulks as shields and predict when you can flank enemies when they get distracted.


When deploying first deploy your main ship, when the batlle starts then trickle in your fighters, the when fighters engage bring in your carriers, this makes the enemies stream at you somewhat.

Also large battles aginst multiple fleets at once can be quickly resolved this way, even a max vent paragon or conquest will need active venting to keep everything firing. Keeping below 30% for maneuvers as defense.


It is still baisically you killing everything yourself but with all your ship as support.

Even if you get a volly off at a frigate and dont hit its armor, a few fighters like thunders or broad swords can easily pinn it down a finish it off. So you never get surrounded.

After a few rounds of nexelerin this is what seem to be best. And most of all, fastest.

Conquest or paragon with fighter support


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Megas

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2016, 04:12:28 PM »

Fighters are hopelessly outgunned, and most are slow.  They cannot be relied on to kill stuff, unless numerous wings are deployed.  But I do not use a carrier fleet.

My endgame fleet looks something like the following:  Paragon, Dominator, Eagle, Medusa x2, Hyperion, Shade, Tempest x4, Lasher, Atlas x3, Ox x3.  Eighteen ships minimum.  The rest get filled quickly by boarding opportunities after most battles (because boarding is cheaper than buying from shops, if you know what to do).  I have no room for fighters.  This fleet is designed to go into totally hostile systems (with no non-hostile bases available to stash loot and/or buy supplies) - with transponder off to attract as many enemy patrols and detachments as possible, chain-battle all hostiles, and loot and board as much as possible.  With the small bounty from a commission, this activity is very profitable thanks to number of enemy ships destroyed.

I do not need fighters to kill things.  Paragon can kill everything thrown at it single-handedly.  Hyperion can solo fleets numbering up to thirty ships.  Cruisers and Medusa get sent to kill smaller fleets that do not need Paragon or Hyperion.  The main problem is killing Timids or carriers that are faster than my Paragon or cruisers, and they will happily kite my ship if I am dumb enough to chase them.  They want my point?  They will need to fight for it!  But they will not, and thus, stalemate until one runs out of CR, which is always them, and not me.  Thus, I win... after waiting about five to ten minutes.

One among Paragon, cruisers, Medusa, and Hyperion is sent to solo fleets.  The frigates are sent to mop up pursuit.  The Atlas haul the big piles of loot generously dropped by gigantic detachments, and the tugs are needed to keep my burn speed up.
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Weltall

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Re: For thoes having problems with timid enemies.
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2016, 05:51:17 PM »

Fighters like Linnis said are more of distractions, rather than actual help in combat.Thunder Wings are lighting fast, so you cant call them slow. But they are like flies, moving all over the map. THe player ignores enemy fighters, going always for the larger target. AI though many times tries to get rid of them and frigates and destroyers go after them. They are replaceable, so you will never have to buy more, as long as you have a carrier sitting at a safe point and they are really cheap.

I am guessing you can't understand how fighters can be useful, because Paragon does not have a problem. It has the ability to have a 360 degrees shield, tons of flux and hell when I attack it, if it is not firing it's flux go down. But That's just for Paragon. I do not like how Paragon looks and that is all energy weapons. My favorite Capital is the buttery Conquest and second choice would be the crazy Onslaught. I never used a Paragon, even when I captured one in one of my games.


But I still do not understand one thing either way; Why? Why you send a single ship to fighter a fleet? Is it to not spend much supplies? Is it because you find it more fun to solo? I do not get why deploying a single ship and making battles longer, it actually that good. If it is about the fun to take the enemy on, all by yourself, that I understand, since it boils down to what the player enjoys. But I can't find a reason for me to do it as a logical strategy.
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