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Author Topic: Starter Loans  (Read 4549 times)

Tomn

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Starter Loans
« on: December 09, 2015, 12:29:08 AM »

One of the problems with Starsector right now is that the early-game difficulty hump can be a frustrating one for newbies to make their way over.  If you don't know what you're doing you'll probably get killed against larger pirate fleets, waste money attempting unprofitable trade runs, etc. etc, thus causing ragequits without ever seeing the more fun and involved parts of the game.

Starting loans would be one way of alleviating this.  By having the player start with enough cash in hand to buy and outfit a small fleet not only will they be better-equipped to handle early game threats or make decent money with trading, even in the event of failure to either survive or pay back the loan they'll get to see more of what the game has to offer and have a taste of the core crack cocaine of the gameplay.

If for whatever reason you want to make loans unattractive to experienced players, perhaps so that loans don't become the default gameplay, you can accomplish this by having interest deductions on any money you make - an added 10% interest tariff to goods sold, 25% of bounty money goes to interest, etc. etc.  That way, experienced players will prefer the "harder" non-loan start so that they don't need to spend a lot of time with reduced rewards, while new players get more breathing room to make mistakes in as they learn the ropes.  You could even provide multiple loan sizes and scale the interest upwards, so that at the highest levels it's basically impossible to make a living but you get to play with all the black market cruisers and destroyers you can find.
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mav

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Re: Starter Loans
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2015, 12:44:47 AM »

The monthly salary featue (from SS+ i think) implements this starter help quite nicely imo and even adds a money sink lategame which might make it unprofitable to run around with a fleet that's too big.

On the one hand, you, as the fleet captain, get a monthly salary. This allows you to get going again, even if you made mistakes during the month. On the other hand, you have to pay the guys working for you: officers, ship crew, marines. This leads to a net income in the beginning, when your fleet is still small and a net loss in mid to late game.
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JohnDoe

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Re: Starter Loans
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2015, 02:00:20 AM »

The monthly salary featue (from SS+ i think) implements this starter help quite nicely imo and even adds a money sink lategame which might make it unprofitable to run around with a fleet that's too big.

On the one hand, you, as the fleet captain, get a monthly salary. This allows you to get going again, even if you made mistakes during the month. On the other hand, you have to pay the guys working for you: officers, ship crew, marines. This leads to a net income in the beginning, when your fleet is still small and a net loss in mid to late game.

Monthly salary (paid to you) is from Nexerelin. Crew salary that's paid by day but displayed monthly is from SS+.
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Gothars

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Re: Starter Loans
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2015, 03:48:20 AM »

Debt? *shudder*
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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.

Clockwork Owl

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Re: Starter Loans
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2015, 04:48:53 AM »

Debt? *shudder*
In a post-apocalyptic high-tech world.
Risky in many ways, I'd say.
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Plantissue

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Re: Starter Loans
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2015, 05:54:04 AM »

Now we know the soruces of all of these organs.

The problem I find with being able to take on loans is that it would simply be counter to normal gameplay. Unlike in real life, taking a loan at the start of a game is essentially risk free as the essence these sort of games are made to reliably be able to provide a good return on an investment of any sort. Start the game and see an attractive mssion? Take a loan, complete the mission and pay back the loan and be happy with almost an instant 10k. A bounty? No need to earn money, when you can just buy several ships and get the bounty before returning it. Ruins the idea of having to work your way up to larger missions.. It would also wouldn't the alleviate the problem of a new player not knowing what they are doing.

New players have plenty of breathing room anyways. You die, you start again in a new ship with all the money and skills you had before.
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Dabor

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Re: Starter Loans
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2015, 06:34:02 AM »

I typed out and now deleted a long rant about how starting in a wolf is already brilliant. A wolf fits almost none of the criteria for what I consider to be a newbie friendly ship - wide-traverse turrets, a wide omni shield and a panic button or passive special. While a wolf has a somewhat defensive system, getting used to where you'll end up and what facing you'll have - and whether it'll help you or not in a specific case - takes a good deal of practice.

Thinking about it, a Tempest would be almost perfect as an "easy starting ship" for new players. I'd be willing to bet a newbie in something like a graviton + burst laser tempest would do better than a properly built Reaper Hyperion.

The point of this is: why would a person who couldn't do with the current starting conditions be expected to do well with a starter loan? If they need it, then they almost certainly wouldn't know how to spent it well, and you may as well just "loan" them a better ship or fleet.
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Cik

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Re: Starter Loans
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2015, 06:39:26 AM »

eh, tempest is pushing it. the wolf is good precisely because it forces you to learn. probably better to learn how to run close combat setups early on, rather than screw up later when the consequences are much higher. sure, beamkite is easy but it doesn't really teach you how to play the game. giving the new player a huge advantage in range and safety early on will probably just transfer the frustration down the line a little.

maybe.
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Dabor

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Re: Starter Loans
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2015, 06:53:50 AM »

eh, tempest is pushing it. the wolf is good precisely because it forces you to learn. probably better to learn how to run close combat setups early on, rather than screw up later when the consequences are much higher. sure, beamkite is easy but it doesn't really teach you how to play the game. giving the new player a huge advantage in range and safety early on will probably just transfer the frustration down the line a little.

maybe.

I wanted to avoid going too specifically into starting conditions, but I very recently (less than 2 weeks ago) introduced a friend to SS and watched him learn to play a very strike-focused wolf (heavy blaster, ion, pair of PDs and pair of harpoons.) It took him a while to get into the swing of things with me teaching him, and it did teach him one bad habit - to rely on the phase skimmer. While using a phase skimmer is skill intensive, controlling your momentum, selecting your facing, and knowing how much it'll take for you to redeploy your shield when dodging missiles, it still gives players habits that they can't afford anywhere else. Unless you jump from a wolf straight to the Medusa, at some point, you have to get used not to having a "dodge" button.

Frankly, the default ship having Active Flares or just an omni-shield would build better habits than something as specific as the phase skimmer - with it, you feel much more pressured to learn to use the skimmer itself than watching your facing, shield and PD coverage.

The old days of starting in a Lasher were fine, I think. Once you learned to 1v1 the AI in an equal lasher, you actually had enough of a grasp of flux, venting, missiles and risk-taking to play almost any conventional ship.

Maybe having a starting condition alongside the "extra weapon/improved crew/extra spending money" for an easier setting of "made a close friend" that also adds a friendly ship (maybe a pressure lasher with autocannons and salamanders) and starts with a "cautious" officer.

Still, the main point that I want to argue is that rather than just giving cash to make things easier, you should give them something good straight up. The people who need the help wouldn't actually know what would help them.

On the topic of the "made a close friend" option, another possibility would be actual mercenary officers - you can't give their ships direct orders beyond them joining in a "full retreat," and their death would only damage your ability to get other mercenaries in the future, and they would take part of your salvage, bounties and such, but give you "free support." It's a way of adding a crutch for new players that doesn't depend on them knowing what to do with the crutch, but shouldn't be strong enough to handle things alone. If you start in a wolf and have an ally in a pressure lasher, you NEED to cooperate if you want to say, fight an enemy hound + lasher + cerberus.
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Tomn

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Re: Starter Loans
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2015, 08:50:42 AM »

The point of this is: why would a person who couldn't do with the current starting conditions be expected to do well with a starter loan? If they need it, then they almost certainly wouldn't know how to spent it well, and you may as well just "loan" them a better ship or fleet.

They aren't necessarily expected to get any better with a loan.  What they DO get is a chance to experience more of the game than "Fight pirate fleet, die repeatedly because they don't have the skills to make real use of the Wolf and don't have the cash to buy an escort to make up for their inexperience, quit in frustration."

With a loan, they can try out different ships, experiment with more loadout options, see what it's like to roll with a small fleet, and generally possess more options than they would otherwise have.  The important thing here isn't that it helps them get better - the important thing is that they're provided MOTIVATION to get better instead of just slamming into a brick wall a few times and declaring "That's it, I'm out."
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FooF

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Re: Starter Loans
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2015, 06:37:01 PM »

Isn't this what the newly-revamped "Easy" does? More credits, a second ship (with officer), and an easier time with finding/defeating Pirate fleets.

I could understand an "Easy" option that perhaps starts you in a Destroyer (Hammerhead?) but Frigate-play is ultimately what makes you good at the game. If you're good in a Frigate, you're good in just about everything else. Flux management on the bigger vessels are much more forgiving and so is the additional armor/hull points.

I will agree with some of you that the Wolf is a great starter ship but the "get-out-of-jail-free-card" can become a crutch. A Lasher would be a nice alternative.
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harrumph

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Re: Starter Loans
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2015, 06:19:55 AM »

The point of this is: why would a person who couldn't do with the current starting conditions be expected to do well with a starter loan? If they need it, then they almost certainly wouldn't know how to spent it well, and you may as well just "loan" them a better ship or fleet.

They aren't necessarily expected to get any better with a loan.  What they DO get is a chance to experience more of the game than "Fight pirate fleet, die repeatedly because they don't have the skills to make real use of the Wolf and don't have the cash to buy an escort to make up for their inexperience, quit in frustration."

With a loan, they can try out different ships, experiment with more loadout options, see what it's like to roll with a small fleet, and generally possess more options than they would otherwise have.  The important thing here isn't that it helps them get better - the important thing is that they're provided MOTIVATION to get better instead of just slamming into a brick wall a few times and declaring "That's it, I'm out."

In general, more options is a very bad thing for new players. It's overwhelming, it's confusing, and it's very easy to make terrible choices. It would be better to optimize the starting experience to be as gentle and instructive as possible (personally, I think the Lasher is a better newbie ship than the Wolf).
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speeder

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Re: Starter Loans
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2015, 07:51:56 AM »

I am not a newbie and I hate the wolf.

But the merchant starter ship also suck (has no shield, gets easily killed by enemy ships that has the same hull but have override mod, and even with all those drawbacks has *** cargo space).

I remember the starter ships were differented in the past and I liked them more.

I don't remember what ship it was, maybe it was a mod thing, but I remember there was a merchant ship that was really good (high burn and reasonable cargo, while having low mininum crew), and I used to buy a whole fleet of them (plus some tanker ships to make profit trading fuel... I wish there was more goods that would fit only tankers).
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