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Author Topic: [0.7.2a] Freespace v0.2 (updated 2/11/17)  (Read 51963 times)

Stalker

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2015, 06:31:56 AM »

Some thoughts on integrating Freespace into Starsector...

  • The overall thought here is... what if the Terrans, Vasudans, and Shivans suddenly found themselves trapped somewhere else where the rules are different? How would they react? I'm going to start with assuming that the GTA becomes somewhat isolationist, the Vasudans take advantage of the opportunity, and the Shivans default to "shoot mans". I'm kind of excited about making the Shivans like the Templars, in that they are this existential threat that you will just have to deal with or avoid.
  • I'm going to incorporate some ship systems where it makes sense. The Deimos, for example, looks kind of like a battering ram, so it's going to get the Onslaught's crazy engine boost. Fighters will get "afterburners", some destroyers will get "beam overload". Open to ideas for everything else, but those are my initial ideas.
  • Beam cannons for FS ships will be built-in and not be available outside of those ships. That being said, the Vasudans have created export versions of their smaller beam cannon and their anti-fighter beam, both of which have general compatibility. These weapons will be balanced against the other similar weapons out there, and can be mounted on anything that can mount them. They will have higher flux generation than built-in beam cannons, though.
  • Aside from beam cannons, all other slots on FS ships will be available for customization, with few exceptions. At least initially, these slots will hide the weapon sprites. Once I make sprites for all the mountable FS weapons, I'll probably play around with making the sprites visible and see if it looks alright.
  • Overall, FS ships will have average flux capacity and venting. They are heavy on energy-type weapons slots, but extremely sparing on ballistics and missiles.

    That being said, the Orion and Hecate will have 3-4 Large Hybrid slots each, and the Deimos will have 3 Medium Hybrids, so go to town on those.

If it's not fun, I'm going to drop it, obviously. The primary goal of this mod is to make a fun experience.

Thoughts on the above?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 06:37:04 AM by Stalker »
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Stalker

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2015, 08:27:55 PM »

Finished up tweaks and fixes to a ton of weapons, and finalized the Deimos and Moloch hulls and variants! I also got my first weapon sprites in... just need to resize the comically large turrets on the Deimos. Still on the road to v0.1!

Here's a screenshot for your viewing pleasure:
Spoiler
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Tartiflette

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2015, 12:39:02 AM »

 The thing you have to keep in mind is, what type of faction you want to do. If it's a NPC faction, you are pretty much free from any limitation as long as they aren't boring/too strong/too weak to fight against. If it's a player faction (which I suspect) you must favor player agency.

 One of the core and novel mechanic of Starsector's combat is the managing of your flux that govern your offense and defense. This offers a lot of tactical decision making in combat and in fitting your ship (although this has been considerably reduced by the recent missiles buffs since venting is now as much a death sentence as overloading). To tank a hit on the shield or hull require quick reflexes, a good knowledge of the universe to assess the threat, a good knowledge of your ship's characteristics, and commit to either action. That's what make the game so exiting, rewarding for the veterans players, and surprisingly deep in gameplay.

 The second very interesting mechanic of Starsector is the ship system. Those allow to enhance your ship's performance or give you an edge and must be used wisely (again, player agency). You have to refrain from spamming them and wait for the right moment to make the most of them. You'll also notice that , with very few exceptions beyond civilian hulls, ships that don't rely heavily on their shields have a ship system that require a lot more commitment, to compensate for the lack of finesse involved in managing their shield. You don't burn drive blindly in an enemy fleet!

 Finally there is the ship customization load-out mechanic. It may not look flashy, but that is a very important one to make the most out of the other mechanics. You can optimize your ships to your play-style, compensate for the hull weaknesses or on the contrary stack on their strengths... And with skill opening more options, it reinforce the sense of character progression. You may have noticed the sharp difficulty difference between vanilla and SS+, and the largest part of this spike comes from the random load-outs the AI have: Vanilla load-outs are voluntarily non optimized and facing an AI on a mostly even ground (the player still has the benefits of the fleet wide bonuses) is a nasty surprise the first few times, until you adjust your strategy. This show how important thinking about your choice of weapons is.


 Now removing to a large extend those mechanics is a huge deal, it will only leave the tactical aspect of the game to positioning, and since we are talking about large ships that doesn't mean much: a shield-less, system-less, hulking faction will only be able to sit in range, all weapons on autofire and duking it out until the ship with the less HP will die first. Not the most exiting thing compared to the vanilla gameplay all about split second decisions and preparation in refit. It will certainly have a certain appeal at first, if only for the nostalgia kick. But that might be short lived, or people might only keep them as a NPC faction and for the occasional weapon they drop. You are about to invest a lot of work in this if you want to bring it to a good level of polish, and such outcome could be disappointing.

 The core gameplay mechanics of Freespace are based on the piloting of fighters, you can't port that into Starsector, and their large ships aren't sophisticated enough because the game was all about fighters.

 I would advise you to rethink how much you want to respect the original Freespace franchise. What are the core principles of Freespace you want to bring in Starsector? If it mostly concern ships sprites, tons of fighters, and huge slashing beams, your mod wouldn't be worse from using the same mechanics as vanilla: would it be so bad if all ships had shields instead of just the fighters? Systems are often difficult to design, but they offers a lot of way to add some flavor to a ship design and to the way it is played. Adding those wouldn't suddenly break their Freespace heritage...
 If you are set on using shield-less ships, you'll have to think about something to replace that: Templars have the Priwen Burst, Exi have their temporary Repulsor, some blackrock ships have their Scalar-something-bullet-eating-lightning-spewing mechanic... All these ships replaced the shields with something else as to maintain the amount player's agency available when flying them. If you don't have that, you better have at the very least an awesome ship-system.

 I'm not a fan of IP mods specifically in Starsector because usually they try to stick too close to their source material and remove everything that make the game worth playing in my opinion. If they were only keeping a loose relation, they could take the best of both worlds and be very much worth playing. But that's only my opinion, so feel free to ignore it if you disagree. In any case, good luck with your mod.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 12:43:07 AM by Tartiflette »
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Stalker

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2015, 10:53:39 AM »

:words:

Good points. Thanks for the post. I hope I can clarify some of your concerns and misconceptions as to this mod, below.

I think of the real-time space combat side of Starsector in terms of the Theory of Constraints. By identifying (and possibly eliminating) constraints, you create a free space to play within. From this perspective, the performance constraints in SS are:

  • Active Defenses (Shields)
  • Passive Defenses (Armor, Hull, EMP resist)
  • Damage Potential (vs. Shields, Armor, Hull, EMP)
  • Flux Level
  • Speed
  • CR

In addition to those constraints, I would add a line item for "Opportunity Creators". Each ship system has to, by its nature, be capable of creating an opportunity for the mounted ship that the ship in question would not otherwise have had.

In my case, I'm taking the 1st constraint and removing it from non-fighters. In return, I'm increasing the influence of the 2nd constraint to compensate, to ensure TTL is roughly maintained across the board. What this creates is a new dynamic for players. By eliminating shields, players must now rotate their armor facings to absorb damage effectively while preventing a hull breach (active management of a passive mechanism) This creates a situation where battles still last just as long, at the ranges we're accustomed to, but require an even better handling on positioning and combat management than with vanilla ships (due to the lack of shields and the extent of the speed constraint).

I'm leaving all the other constraints in place, aside from the 1st.

Some other points:
  • I don't have a screenshot available at the moment, but aside from a handful of slots for built-in beam weapons, all other weapon slots are customizable right now. A bunch of those slots are considered to be in "casemates", so they aren't visible on the ship when mounted, but you can still mount what you will in there.
  • Flux management is still very important. Sitting on auto-fire is going to mean you're going to be riding the full flux line before too long. In addition, you won't be able to fire your beam cannons, which require a considerable flux reserve to fire unhindered.
  • Each FS ship will (eventually) end up with some sort of ship system specifically placed to give that ship opportunities it wouldn't have otherwise had. One of the things I most appreciate about ships in SS is taking advantage of the opportunities ship systems can create.

    In some specific cases, this won't be an active ship system, but a significant passive bonus that the ship provides to the fleet

TL;DR: I'm trying to make something fun for me to play alongside all the other Vanilla mod factions, while teaching myself Java. I hope everyone else enjoys the end result too.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 10:56:50 AM by Stalker »
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Stalker

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2015, 05:47:55 PM »

Ungggghh... I just now figured this out. To get beam weapons to behave how I wanted, I needed to be able to define charge up duration, firing duration, charge down duration, and cooldown. Finally tinkered enough with this to get it done:

These are in numbers of seconds...

1. chargeup - The beam starts charging before firing (cue charging sound/animation)
2. burst size - The beam is firing at full power for this duration (cue firing sound/animation)
3. chargedown - The beam powers down (cue discharge sound/animation)
4. burst delay - The beam cools down

Now that I've gotten these ships done, I'm balancing them and their weapons against each other and vanilla ships. This is my favorite part.

Here are shots of the Deimos and Moloch in refit (note that most of the slots are available for weapons):

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Stalker

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2015, 09:33:54 PM »

Today's update: Got all the v0.1 ships in and started play-testing them a bit. Fixed a few obvious bugs. There are minor ones with display and sound which I'll fix later.

Overall, I'm happy. I took a fully-kit Deimos up against a stock Paragon, and the Deimos just barely lost. I need to tune its power down a bit, and then it'll be where it needs to be. I increased the range a bit on the beams, but seriously upped their flux generation. I'll definitely nerf their damage, especially at the top-level, since the bigger beams currently do about 1000 DPS. That just ain't right. Not from a vanilla balance standpoint, at any rate.

Got the first full-sized Destroyer in the game (800px). Looks and plays well. 800 is a great size.

GitHub is updated with the latest. Feel free to try it out in advance of the release.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 09:36:06 PM by Stalker »
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Blaze

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2015, 09:42:56 AM »

Will definitely be trying soon.

How will the capship vs destroyer classification work out though? The biggest ships are referred to as destroyers in FS, excluding things like the Sathanus and mods. Conversely, the only frigate sized ships are transports.

Also looking forward to seeing if you can make the Infyrno not suck.
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Stalker

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2015, 09:57:52 AM »

Will definitely be trying soon.

How will the capship vs destroyer classification work out though? The biggest ships are referred to as destroyers in FS, excluding things like the Sathanus and mods. Conversely, the only frigate sized ships are transports.

Also looking forward to seeing if you can make the Infyrno not suck.

Good question.

Freespace "Destroyer" = Starsector "Capital Ship"
Freespace "Corvette" = Starsector "Cruiser"
Freespace "Cruiser" = Starsector "Destroyer"

The only "Frigate"-class ships in the mod will be transports and smaller support ships. Non-combatants, really.

That gap is crossed by having really awesome fighters and bombers, which effectively act as multi-part frigates.

The Piranha/Infyrno hybrid I have now is basically an anti-fighter MIRV. The effectiveness is still debatable ;)
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ChaseBears

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2015, 10:05:37 AM »

Classifications are arbitrary.  Starsector's hull classes are purely about size.    Though that does bring up the question of whether you place the Lucifer+ ships as Capitals or some sort of super-capital.

Personally, I think the Freespace cruisers qualify as frigates. *shrug*

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If I were creating the world I wouldn’t mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o’clock, Day One!

Stalker

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2015, 10:16:12 AM »

It's all pretty easy to change whenever.

The Lucifer and other supercaps are not going in the mod anytime soon. I'm sure they will be cool, but they're going to be really difficult to balance...

BONUS:

Here's the latest video. I'm actively balancing and tweaking this... based on the feedback I've already gotten through other channels, I'm going to be speeding up the blob turrets, making them HE damage (and just more damage), and significantly upping the flux cost of beam cannons. That being said, it's getting closer to being fun, alongside vanilla ships. Next video I'll drop some Freespace ships in against a Hegemony fleet and see what happens...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snhHxmiwIiQ
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 10:21:28 AM by Stalker »
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Vinch

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2015, 02:39:53 PM »

Will definitely be trying soon.

How will the capship vs destroyer classification work out though? The biggest ships are referred to as destroyers in FS, excluding things like the Sathanus and mods. Conversely, the only frigate sized ships are transports.

Also looking forward to seeing if you can make the Infyrno not suck.

Good question.

Freespace "Destroyer" = Starsector "Capital Ship"
Freespace "Corvette" = Starsector "Cruiser"
Freespace "Cruiser" = Starsector "Destroyer"

The only "Frigate"-class ships in the mod will be transports and smaller support ships. Non-combatants, really.

That gap is crossed by having really awesome fighters and bombers, which effectively act as multi-part frigates.

The Piranha/Infyrno hybrid I have now is basically an anti-fighter MIRV. The effectiveness is still debatable ;)

Also the only frigate present in freespace vanilla is the NTF Iceni, which is described as a "pocket destroyer" so somewhere between a heavy cruiser and cap ship.
Anyway, freespace cap ships do have shields IIRC, its just that it dont look and act as a protective bubble but rather as a magnetic field that hold the hull and armor when otherwise it would be compromised. I don't remember where i read it :/ could be in a mod.

Regarding the ships active systems, you may want to take a look at how they handled that in "the blade itself", "the battle captains" and the mission "one future" from BP. These are some awesome stuf man ;) when you take control of capitals ships in freespace 2 its like another game!
So, out of my mind in the mission where you control the deimos  you had 2 or 3 active abilites: an extended afterburner, a beam overcharge and a thing against inc torpedoes or something.
The mission in TBI: an active regenerative hull, a ECM burst to jam Tevs beams and an active armour wich reduce inc damage.

Just to give you some ideas ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwiEK4YD7Ck
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Serenitis

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2015, 02:25:38 AM »

Also looking forward to seeing if you can make the Infyrno not suck.

The Infyrno wasn't bad, it was just misclassified.
It terrible and counter productive as anti-fighter weapon.
But it rocked balls as a budget anti-cap torpedo - like a dirty Reaper. (Essentially a 3/4 strength unguided Cyclops with extra subsystem damage, and double damage for a direct hit. Which can be carried by lots of things which are not slow and clunky bombers.)

« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 02:27:28 AM by Serenitis »
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Stalker

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2015, 11:59:59 AM »

I'm finishing super-basic star systems (1-2 planets each) for each of the factions today, and I'll drop in a few basic missions as well (Terrans vs. Shivans, Vasudans vs. TriTachyon, hegemony vs, terrans). I can't promise any of the campaign or mission stuff will be balanced yet... It's just there to allow you to play with the FS factions a bit.

Once that is done, and basic debugging is out of the way, I'll set the campaign to run overnight in Nexerelin Corvus mode while I idle in a test fleet, to make sure nothing breaks in an extended test with other mods. Assuming all goes well, I'll release v0.1 tomorrow morning.
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Stalker

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2015, 10:51:00 PM »

Tons of Null Pointer Errors later, I finally got the campaign running! Woo! Most of the NPEs were due to faction name misspellings. Oops.

Campaign is running in test now. I'll have the release out tomorrow, barring any major major issues.
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Stalker

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Re: [WIP] Freespace
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2015, 11:17:43 AM »

Testing we tell enough, but I'm getting a persistent crash when the campaign runs long enough (hard crash when spawning a Shivan trade fleet). Shivan fleets aren't really spawning, that I can tell. I may have to rebuild the Shivan faction file.

Terrains, Vasudans, Hammer of Light, and New Terran Dawn factions are all working properly, though.
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