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Author Topic: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 217359 times)

Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #300 on: December 06, 2015, 02:50:53 PM »

Fleet circle should not rely on color to indicate transponder status.

Why?  It would be a nice feature if after you accept a commission, your fleet color changes to match (or be a slightly different shade of) the color of your patron faction.

P.S.  The current player faction color almost matches Tri-Tachyon color.  It feels almost natural to join them.
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TJJ

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #301 on: December 06, 2015, 02:52:47 PM »

Fleet circle should not rely on color to indicate transponder status.

Why?  It would be a nice feature if after you accept a commission, your fleet color changes to match (or be a slightly different shade of) the color of your patron faction.

You can't hold multiple commissions, right?

Some kind of decoration, or heraldry might be a better way to go IMO.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #302 on: December 06, 2015, 02:56:04 PM »

I do not think so.  I do not remember seeing Independent commission offered (even though I am friendly with them) while I am commissioned by Tri-Tachyon.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #303 on: December 06, 2015, 02:57:02 PM »

Gameplay reason: make the primary early-game enemy - i.e. pirates - easier to see. Early-game fleet visibility range was an issue.

Hey that's not fair! It makes it even harder to be a pirate or smuggler :) We accept, nay approve, of our own faction trying to abort us as soon as we start the game because only the strong deserve to survive, but enough is enough:

As a pirate or smuggler you rely more than other factions on stealth, yet all our ships are now the least stealthy. Our shielded cargo holds are now canceled out by the D sensor profile. You need that for going dark when you bring contraband into a market for pirate missions. Lorewise it's also hard to imagine why pirates wouldn't put all their resources into stealth since their prosperity and indeed survival depends on it with the whole sector arrayed against them.

Perhaps* people who have problems either getting jumped by pirates or not being able to catch any just aren't good enough at SS yet. There is stealth, there are terrain effects, there are ally battles. When you're weak, it isn't hard to join chases with police fleets if you want to fight pirates to get XP, or stick close to safe areas and patrols if you want to avoid them. SS has a real, lovely challenge at the beginning with delicious complexity and reverses. Why can't people just think critically, scheme, and machinate better instead of whinging for easier fodder? I know a lot of people complain about difficulty, but at least one person really, really likes that difficulty and nigh perverse challenge.

(I've been play testing as a smuggler/pirate for ideological reasons since the game falsely portrays them as bloodthirsty raiders when in fact they're just a separate polity whose  pluralistic philosophy threatens regimes like the loathed authoritarian diktat or the totalitarian church)

But yea re: fleeing pirates, no faction should give you a rep hit for fleeing battle. I can't explain why; just that it's like fried eggs with the flavour of strawberries. Seems out of kilter.

*definitely
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #304 on: December 06, 2015, 03:01:01 PM »

Quote
(I've been play testing as a smuggler/pirate for ideological reasons since the game falsely portrays them as bloodthirsty raiders when in fact they're just a separate polity whose  pluralistic philosophy threatens regimes like the loathed authoritarian diktat or the totalitarian church)
This is why would-be pirates who want the best gear enlist at their <major faction of choice>'s military and act as pirates to their enemies.  If they join with so-called pirates, all they get is junk and enmity from everyone.  In Starsector, there is no meaningful difference between pirate and privateer aside from the military market you can shop at.
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JT

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #305 on: December 06, 2015, 03:45:06 PM »

Hey that's not fair! It makes it even harder to be a pirate or smuggler :) We accept, nay approve, of our own faction trying to abort us as soon as we start the game because only the strong deserve to survive, but enough is enough:

As a pirate or smuggler you rely more than other factions on stealth, yet all our ships are now the least stealthy. Our shielded cargo holds are now canceled out by the D sensor profile. You need that for going dark when you bring contraband into a market for pirate missions. Lorewise it's also hard to imagine why pirates wouldn't put all their resources into stealth since their prosperity and indeed survival depends on it with the whole sector arrayed against them.

Perhaps* people who have problems either getting jumped by pirates or not being able to catch any just aren't good enough at SS yet. There is stealth, there are terrain effects, there are ally battles. When you're weak, it isn't hard to join chases with police fleets if you want to fight pirates to get XP, or stick close to safe areas and patrols if you want to avoid them. SS has a real, lovely challenge at the beginning with delicious complexity and reverses. Why can't people just think critically, scheme, and machinate better instead of whinging for easier fodder? I know a lot of people complain about difficulty, but at least one person really, really likes that difficulty and nigh perverse challenge.

(I've been play testing as a smuggler/pirate for ideological reasons since the game falsely portrays them as bloodthirsty raiders when in fact they're just a separate polity whose  pluralistic philosophy threatens regimes like the loathed authoritarian diktat or the totalitarian church)

But yea re: fleeing pirates, no faction should give you a rep hit for fleeing battle. I can't explain why; just that it's like fried eggs with the flavour of strawberries. Seems out of kilter.

*definitely

I'll note that playing as a pirate isn't currently part of the vanilla content -- it requires a mod to realise as a starting scenario.  That said, you shouldn't simultaneously complain about difficulty and ad hominem on others for not being good enough. A logician would pounce on that one with tooth and flame. ;-)

The vast majority of pirates are sloppy, unregulated, and inexperienced people who resorted to piracy out of either desperation -- too poor to afford good stuff -- or a simple lack of basic decency -- so they're lacking in the sort of rigid discipline and structure that would promote proper maintenance.  The D-hulls also suit a very plausible in-lore explanation: these are ships that would have been brought to the breakers but have instead, through creative bookkeeping, been "disposed of".

Really, the only thing I see that needs to be fixed here is to make regular non-degraded hulls available for purchase in pirate ports on (more frequent) occasion -- so a player pirate can pick those up as he goes, and perhaps even start out with one (rather than a D-hull) on the basis of being a cut above the rest.  The "elite" pirates are noble browncoats who care more about personal freedoms and independence against increasingly totalitarian regimes, and are both cunning and intelligent enough to maintain consensual chains of command and discipline... translating to properly refitted hulls, repaired through old-fashioned sweat and blood, that are the rival of mainline autofactories.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 03:49:08 PM by JT »
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #306 on: December 06, 2015, 03:56:09 PM »

Really, the only thing I see that needs to be fixed here is to make regular non-degraded hulls available for purchase in pirate ports on occasion -- so a player pirate can pick those up as he goes, and perhaps even start out with one (rather than a D-hull) on the basis of being a cut above the rest.  The "elite" pirates are noble browncoats who care more about personal freedoms and independence against increasingly totalitarian regimes,

Haha, hear hear. Yes I'd settle for that :) They should also show up in pirate fleets now and then to surprise complacent players. But really any faction that relies so much on aggression or subterfuge would be sure to have their gear well polished and maintained, or they'd never outlive their first day on the job. Ships fitted for piracy in history were well armed and equipped for speed and surprise.

It's the profit watching pinch-a-penny merchants who would have the fleets full of aftermarket refurb D freighters and rentacop D escort frigates-- if your fleet gets destroyed just declare bankruptcy or skip town.

I guess the takeaway is that maybe small pirate fleets of just a 1-3 ships should be all Ds (the aspiring pirates) but the bigger fleets should be more high quality ships.


This is why would-be pirates who want the best gear enlist at their <major faction of choice>'s military and act as pirates to their enemies.  If they join with so-called pirates, all they get is junk and enmity from everyone.  In Starsector, there is no meaningful difference between pirate and privateer aside from the military market you can shop at.

Didn't you see my post. It's a matter of principle man! You'd think I'd sell out to the stinking Diktat gulag state, or punch a timecard for Tri-Tach?
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Voyager I

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #307 on: December 06, 2015, 04:21:02 PM »

possible bug
50000 credit bounty posted is listed as 75000C on my intel screen...

Varda Lim by the tri-tachyon.

Bug?  am am neutral with tri-tachyon.

I can click the 75000 bounty and it reads 50000 credit at the top.

It's a bug - fixed, thank you. The actual bounty amount is the higher one.


Are you going to build in any sanity checks for some of the bounty fleet admiral assignments?  Taking on a bit pile of Tri-Tach jerks only to find out their Admiral is in a Medusa or some phase frigate that's literally uncatchable in a pursuit scenario (with a level 20 officer they can often traverse the map without leaving phase for more than a few flickers) is bit of a sucker punch with the current binary mechanic wherein only the flagship matters for determining whether you get paid.

I've run into similar stuff in playtesting and the solution has been to make sure you take them out early on in the battle before they run. It's harder, but also mixes up the things you actually need to do in battle. So I'm not entirely sure this is something that needs to be sanity-checked or fixed - just something that requires an adjustment in tactics to deal with.

If that gets to a pursuit scenario, that's basically a loss condition... well, not quite, even then. You could harry them instead (to avoid a long and pointless pursuit) and if you catch them enough times and harry their CR down, they should stand and fight eventually. Or crash-mothball when they flee and become easily catchable. Or not crash-mothball and explode from critical malfunctions. This would get more expensive with all the emergency burns and such, but if it's a big bounty, it's probably still worth it.

So you've got an initial tactic, and then a fallback if that doesn't work out. Seems reasonable to me; thoughts?

The current system is still prone to some serious edge-case shenanigans and your ability to kill the Admiral often depends on the AI making unnecessary decisions that make it possible for you to kill him.  For instance, I had one case where the bounty Admiral was in a Medusa who deployed himself in the second wave of the main battle, just as the enemy fleet decided to retreat, so there was never a chance to headhunt him in the field, and killing a Medusa with a level 20 office in a pursuit is one hell of a long shot.

Repeatedly harrying them on the strategic level is a bad and unreliable option.  The fleets you take to hunt lategame bounties aren't going to be able to match burn speeds with whatever jackass ships manage to escape the first engagement and forcing the player to light supplies on fire mashing Emergency Burn on a full sized fleet in order to maybe jink the AI into touching bubbles with the stragglers isn't a fun or satisfying experience.  The AI doesn't seem to care about time or resources at all while you've just put a huge amount of work into making sure the player does, so forcing the player into what are essentially contests of spite is probably not a great outcome for bounty fights.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #308 on: December 06, 2015, 04:50:35 PM »

Really, the only thing I see that needs to be fixed here is to make regular non-degraded hulls available for purchase in pirate ports on occasion -- so a player pirate can pick those up as he goes, and perhaps even start out with one (rather than a D-hull) on the basis of being a cut above the rest.  The "elite" pirates are noble browncoats who care more about personal freedoms and independence against increasingly totalitarian regimes,

That's already how it works in 0.7.1a - a decent number of independent hulls and weapons are available on black markets in pirate ports and elsewhere.


@Voyager I: I see your point re: the chasing the stragglers down. Having just given it a try, I think it's more that there's no good way to actually chase down a fleet like that, if it happens to be orbiting a world without any terrain around it to take advantage of. If you could just EB a couple of times and reliably catch them, that'd one one thing - but it really is pretty difficult to pull off without nearby terrain. "Don't put fleet commanders into Medusas" doesn't sound like a good solution, though; it's solving an edge case with something that will itself have edge cases and that doesn't seem like actual progress.

I think a good solution here would be either skills that improve abilities, or more abilities for more pursuit options in the absence of terrain. And perhaps adding more terrain in overall. As you say, that particular type of chase is not a satisfying experience, but it probably could be.
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Voyager I

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #309 on: December 06, 2015, 06:04:45 PM »

I'm not sure how much terrain can solve this.  Imagine something like an end-game bounty battle where cruisers or even capitals are legitimately being deployed by both sides.  Even when they have a Paragon on the field, the enemy Admiral might be a level 20 officer commanding from an Afflictor, which depending on how the AI feels like flying it is pretty likely to live through the main battle and survive a pursuit scenario, probably either by itself or with some other phase frigates and such.  The heavy duty fleet you brought for the primary battle can't and shouldn't be able to chase down a handful of burn 10 frigates, and any scenario where it can probably just means the AI is making unnecessary mistakes or doesn't understand some new game mechanic.  Of course, as it currently stands you can't park your cruisers and split off with your own fast movers for an exhilarating chase sequence, so instead what happens is that if the enemy Admiral happened to be one of those escaping frigates then you just don't get paid for wiping out a deserter's band the size of a system defense fleet (or sometimes you do, but only because the AI flew back into your fleet of its own accord for no discernible reason, which isn't really a satisfying way to achieve your goals).  "Destroy this large enemy fleet" is a very different job from "hunt down this fast moving enemy frigate" and you probably shouldn't be able to be good at both with the same fleet, but sometimes you come to do one and end up having to do the other and you don't have any way to switch fleets on the fly.

A simple, short-term fix might just be putting the Admiral into the largest non-civilian hull in their fleet.  Later on, when you add more detailed mechanics around pursuit etc, you can look at adding more depth to admiral assignments.
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Psilous

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #310 on: December 06, 2015, 06:10:00 PM »

Something must be off about these commissions.

I just got punished -5 for not being hostile with the independents from Hegemony. I thought the idea was you didn't have to pick only one. And I am being punished so frequently I don't have a chance to run around the galaxy picking fights with every single other faction to maintain my standing with one.
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Euqocelbbog

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #311 on: December 06, 2015, 06:26:00 PM »

I feel like something has to be wrong with smuggling investigations. A while ago I incurred an investigation after picking up a couple of AM blasters and disregarded it because it's just a pair of guns, who cares. Later the investigation hit me with an about 100 point penalty, breaking my almost cooperative relations and my commission, but I was able to load just far enough back to burndrive over and pay a big ass bribe. More recently, I incurred another investigation after offloading 40 units of drugs and tried to go pay the bribe, but a patrol decided to orbit the respective planet for at least an ingame month. I eventually loaded back and went off to do other stuff before returning, where I had the choice of eating a 124 point penalty or paying a bribe of 192,000 credits.

It seems that investigations that find you guilty always set you to about -30 relations and always entail absolutely enormous bribes. I could understand if it was a neutral faction and I was drowning their black markets in drugs, weapons, and organs, but in this case the most I'm doing is occasionally buying the odd rare weapon or offloading some drugs looted from pirates and with a faction that I'm cooperative with and hold a commission. Honestly, the smuggling investigation system right now feels just as random and arbitrary as the old boarding system and likewise only results in frustration.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #312 on: December 06, 2015, 06:41:37 PM »

I'm not sure how much terrain can solve this.  Imagine something like an end-game bounty battle where cruisers or even capitals are legitimately being deployed by both sides.  Even when they have a Paragon on the field, the enemy Admiral might be a level 20 officer commanding from an Afflictor, which depending on how the AI feels like flying it is pretty likely to live through the main battle and survive a pursuit scenario, probably either by itself or with some other phase frigates and such.  The heavy duty fleet you brought for the primary battle can't and shouldn't be able to chase down a handful of burn 10 frigates, and any scenario where it can probably just means the AI is making unnecessary mistakes or doesn't understand some new game mechanic.  Of course, as it currently stands you can't park your cruisers and split off with your own fast movers for an exhilarating chase sequence, so instead what happens is that if the enemy Admiral happened to be one of those escaping frigates then you just don't get paid for wiping out a deserter's band the size of a system defense fleet (or sometimes you do, but only because the AI flew back into your fleet of its own accord for no discernible reason, which isn't really a satisfying way to achieve your goals).  "Destroy this large enemy fleet" is a very different job from "hunt down this fast moving enemy frigate" and you probably shouldn't be able to be good at both with the same fleet, but sometimes you come to do one and end up having to do the other and you don't have any way to switch fleets on the fly.

A simple, short-term fix might just be putting the Admiral into the largest non-civilian hull in their fleet.  Later on, when you add more detailed mechanics around pursuit etc, you can look at adding more depth to admiral assignments.

Did that. A good thing for now, regardless of how stuff pans out; thanks for the suggestion.


I just got punished -5 for not being hostile with the independents from Hegemony. I thought the idea was you didn't have to pick only one. And I am being punished so frequently I don't have a chance to run around the galaxy picking fights with every single other faction to maintain my standing with one.

You're limited to one, and it opens up lots of hostilities. The point is that you pick one, rather than it happening through investigations and such. But once you pick a faction, yeah, that's how it's going to go.

I feel like something has to be wrong with smuggling investigations. A while ago I incurred an investigation after picking up a couple of AM blasters and disregarded it because it's just a pair of guns, who cares. Later the investigation hit me with an about 100 point penalty, breaking my almost cooperative relations and my commission, but I was able to load just far enough back to burndrive over and pay a big ass bribe. More recently, I incurred another investigation after offloading 40 units of drugs and tried to go pay the bribe, but a patrol decided to orbit the respective planet for at least an ingame month. I eventually loaded back and went off to do other stuff before returning, where I had the choice of eating a 124 point penalty or paying a bribe of 192,000 credits.

It seems that investigations that find you guilty always set you to about -30 relations and always entail absolutely enormous bribes. I could understand if it was a neutral faction and I was drowning their black markets in drugs, weapons, and organs, but in this case the most I'm doing is occasionally buying the odd rare weapon or offloading some drugs looted from pirates and with a faction that I'm cooperative with and hold a commission. Honestly, the smuggling investigation system right now feels just as random and arbitrary as the old boarding system and likewise only results in frustration.

The bribe amount sounds way wrong. It's supposed to max out at 100k credits when the investigation has a maxed out chance of starting/finding you guilty. If it's just a minor BM purchase here and there, the bribe shouldn't rise much about 10k.

Checked into it a bit - looks like there's a bug where it wasn't being properly capped, but still, to get to 192k credits, the probability of an investigation (i.e. suspicion level) had to go to almost 200%. Which would require selling a *lot* of stuff on the black market, or for the market to be really small. So I suppose it's possible that this is a legitimate outcome - if you sold 40 drugs at a premium to a very small market, then this might have happened, but it still sounds unlikely. I just tried selling 40 drugs to a size 5 market, and the investigation chance from that was 20%. so to get to 190% or so? I suppose it is possible, with a market with a lower trade volume and high stability. Are you sure that black market ship purchases and such weren't involved?

Anyway, the major difference in effect from selling the same amount on a small vs large market is rather hidden from the player... hm. Something I'll need to look at, for sure. Right now smuggling investigations are there so that there's a real risk to smuggling (plus, sneaking into a market to pay a bribe can be fun, though the issue there is it just interrupts whatever you were doing, and that can be annoying, hence the long duration); but might be able to find another way of accomplishing the same thing.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 06:53:18 PM by Alex »
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Psilous

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #313 on: December 06, 2015, 06:58:37 PM »

I just got punished -5 for not being hostile with the independents from Hegemony. I thought the idea was you didn't have to pick only one. And I am being punished so frequently I don't have a chance to run around the galaxy picking fights with every single other faction to maintain my standing with one.

You're limited to one, and it opens up lots of hostilities. The point is that you pick one, rather than it happening through investigations and such. But once you pick a faction, yeah, that's how it's going to go.

Shouldn't this punishment be based on the actual diplomatic relations of the faction you get a commission with? Why should I be punished for not hitting the independents when the Hegemony are Neutral with them? This opens up a greater flexibility with the diplomatics of these factions and gives the player an incentive for paying attention to the changing politics.

There is no possible way a player can pick a commission and then go out and immediately create hostilities with every single other faction in the game, so by this logic the player should automatically be reduced to hostile with every other faction...but again this logic gets muddy because you have factions sending mercantile fleets between them and now I'm getting punished for not hitting food shortage fleets coming to my own faction?
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #314 on: December 06, 2015, 07:00:43 PM »

Shouldn't this punishment be based on the actual diplomatic relations of the faction you get a commission with?

It is - guessing that in your game, the Hegemony is currently hostile to independents. Check "Events" for current faction hostility updates, or the "factions" intel tab. Note that if you do attack them, you'll recover some standing with the independents once hostilities end.
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