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Author Topic: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 200220 times)

ChaseBears

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #510 on: January 08, 2016, 07:10:58 PM »

Quote
I agree that Graviton Beams being kinetic-type is a broken kneecap on top of a spinal cord injury.

why? the whole point is that they are long range support weapons, and kinetic is an ideal damage type for support.

it's also unique for energy weapons; though i guess isn't as important as it used to be, since regular weapons don't use ammo anymore.

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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #511 on: January 08, 2016, 07:51:12 PM »

Quote
I agree that Graviton Beams being kinetic-type is a broken kneecap on top of a spinal cord injury.

why? the whole point is that they are long range support weapons, and kinetic is an ideal damage type for support.

it's also unique for energy weapons; though i guess isn't as important as it used to be, since regular weapons don't use ammo anymore.
Beams don't do hard flux damage to shields, making them very bad vs shields. Graviton Beams do kinetic damage which, combined with beams being considered to do half their DPS for the armor damage reduction calculation, makes them completely worthless vs armor. What are they even supposed to be fired at? They're only good for bullying (D) ships with terrible flux stats.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 08:09:59 PM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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JohnDoe

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #512 on: January 08, 2016, 07:56:23 PM »

All continuous beams are kind of lame ever since the flux damage bonus was removed. Burst beams are good when the enemy is about to overload or when you're already shooting at armor, but otherwise they won't help you win a flux war against anything bigger than an average destroyer.
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Mudanzas Valencia

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #513 on: January 08, 2016, 08:10:30 PM »

While beams are no good on an individual ship basis I've found in aggregate they are devastating on a fleet level. A wolf with three tac lasers and a grav beam can bleed most destroyers shields down, without exposing themselves to any real danger. Then the ground and pound lashers or antimatter boats come in. Yes you can achieve similar buy making the wolves autopulse boats but its messier do to range and higher flux costs. Brawling wolves may die where beam wolves live. Also beams are extremely effective against most fighters due to know target leading penalties. So one beam against one pulsr will lose, but ten beams against ten pulses?
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ChaseBears

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #514 on: January 08, 2016, 08:27:49 PM »

Quote
I agree that Graviton Beams being kinetic-type is a broken kneecap on top of a spinal cord injury.

why? the whole point is that they are long range support weapons, and kinetic is an ideal damage type for support.

it's also unique for energy weapons; though i guess isn't as important as it used to be, since regular weapons don't use ammo anymore.
Beams don't do hard flux damage to shields, making them very bad vs shields. Graviton Beams do kinetic damage, making them worthless vs armor. What are they even supposed to be fired at? They're only good for bullying (D) ships with terrible flux stats.

They're very good at shield pressure against an enemy actually using their weapons, which is why they're a support weapon - they don't get the job done by themselves. That's okay though since you have flux to spare when using them.

Sunder - 2x Graviton beams - 400 DPS vs shields, (600 using ability.)

Against a Balanced-variant Enforcer, that works out to 480 DPS versus 320 dissipation. Even without causing hard flux, it's enough to overwhelm the shields just by themselves.  Now, obviously, an Enforcer captain can just drop their shields; but that leaves them up to the Autopulse laser or Tachyon lance or missile mounts or w/e.







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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #515 on: January 08, 2016, 08:58:49 PM »

They're very good at shield pressure against an enemy actually using their weapons, which is why they're a support weapon - they don't get the job done by themselves. That's okay though since you have flux to spare when using them.

Sunder - 2x Graviton beams - 400 DPS vs shields, (600 using ability.)

Against a Balanced-variant Enforcer, that works out to 480 DPS versus 320 dissipation. Even without causing hard flux, it's enough to overwhelm the shields just by themselves.  Now, obviously, an Enforcer captain can just drop their shields; but that leaves them up to the Autopulse laser or Tachyon lance or missile mounts or w/e.

Balanced-Variant Enforcers actually have 400 Flux dissipation, so you're not off to a good start. They've got 1390 FPS in weapons+shields and 6800 flux capacity, so they'll naturally max out on flux in 6.9 seconds if they're within 450 range and firing everything, 35.8 seconds if they're within 700 range and firing only their Arbalests. 480 additional FPS changes those numbers to 4.6 seconds and 10.1 seconds respectively. If you're actually trying to use the range of the Graviton Beam and they're not firing, it'll take you 85 seconds to max out their flux.

Or you could just fire your HEF-boosted Autopulse Laser, overload it in 3 seconds even if it doesn't fire, then punch right through its armor with two HEF-boosted Pulse Lances. Or do 600 Hard Flux DPS with the two Light Needlers you can put on the front ballistic mounts, then move in with the Autopulse. I really don't know why you chose a Sunder, it's probably the worst thing to mount Graviton Beams on. Its energy weapons benefit from being bursty to take full advantage of the HEF, and it has access to Light Needlers which have 800 range, do hard flux, and go in a small ballistic slot.

Edit: Keep getting the numbers wrong, math is hard and it's late where I am. Should be correct now.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 10:36:13 PM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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Vind

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #516 on: January 08, 2016, 10:44:49 PM »

People complaining about beams not mention their main advantage - accuracy compared to ballistic weapons. Officers without ordnance 5 skill will miss most of ballistic shots even on slow targets but will hit well with beams.
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ChaseBears

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #517 on: January 08, 2016, 10:47:47 PM »

Enforcers have 80 shield cost -  so they only have 320 dissipation while their shield is up.  Also, their max flux usage is highly misleading owing to so much of it being tied up in its Assault Chainguns.

Quote
Or you could just fire your HEF-boosted Autopulse Laser, overload it in 3 seconds even if it doesn't fire, then punch right through its armor with two HEF-boosted Pulse Lances. Or do 600 Hard Flux DPS with the two Light Needlers you can put on the front ballistic mounts, then move in with the Autopulse. I really don't know why you chose a Sunder, it's probably the worst thing to mount Graviton Beams on. Its energy weapons benefit from being bursty to take full advantage of the HEF, and it has access to Light Needlers which have 800 range, do hard flux, and go in a small ballistic slot.
Light Needlers are great, but there's a pretty significant range and accuracy difference between them and Graviton beams.  You also arn't prevented from using both of them at the same time so ?.

I went ahead and scrimmaged an Assault Sunder (autopulse/pulse/sabot/needler) vs a similar Sunder with autopulse/graviton/sabot/vulcan. The second Sunder (on Autopilot) won 4/5 fights; though for some reason it was using its Sabots more than the Assault Sunder. So I took off the Sabots (without adding more vents etc.), and the second Sunder still won 2/3 fights.  Although the real reason for its victory seemed to be higher flux reserves owing to less OP spent on Needlers and less flux spent on offense; this gave it just enough shield flux to withstand an autopulse barrage.  The Pulse Lasers were completely useless for the Assault Sunder.

Note: The only Technology effect in play was +10% hull armor, which I judged to make no difference to the outcome of any of the fights.

Point is, Graviton beams are support weapons. They are pure Gravy and highly defensive, letting you control fights with long range, high accuracy and great sustain.


People complaining about beams not mention their main advantage - accuracy compared to ballistic weapons. Officers without ordnance 5 skill will miss most of ballistic shots even on slow targets but will hit well with beams.
This is a good point. Graviton and Tachyon beams have suffered (relatively speaking) from the projectile speed and accuracy buffs given by Officers.
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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #518 on: January 08, 2016, 11:17:19 PM »

Enforcers have 80 shield cost -  so they only have 320 dissipation while their shield is up.  Also, their max flux usage is highly misleading owing to so much of it being tied up in its Assault Chainguns.

Quote
Or you could just fire your HEF-boosted Autopulse Laser, overload it in 3 seconds even if it doesn't fire, then punch right through its armor with two HEF-boosted Pulse Lances. Or do 600 Hard Flux DPS with the two Light Needlers you can put on the front ballistic mounts, then move in with the Autopulse. I really don't know why you chose a Sunder, it's probably the worst thing to mount Graviton Beams on. Its energy weapons benefit from being bursty to take full advantage of the HEF, and it has access to Light Needlers which have 800 range, do hard flux, and go in a small ballistic slot.
Light Needlers are great, but there's a pretty significant range and accuracy difference between them and Graviton beams.  You also arn't prevented from using both of them at the same time so ?.

I went ahead and scrimmaged an Assault Sunder (autopulse/pulse/sabot/needler) vs a similar Sunder with autopulse/graviton/sabot/vulcan. The second Sunder (on Autopilot) won 4/5 fights; though for some reason it was using its Sabots more than the Assault Sunder. So I took off the Sabots (without adding more vents etc.), and the second Sunder still won 2/3 fights.  Although the real reason for its victory seemed to be higher flux reserves owing to less OP spent on Needlers and less flux spent on offense; this gave it just enough shield flux to withstand an autopulse barrage.  The Pulse Lasers were completely useless for the Assault Sunder.

Note: The only Technology effect in play was +10% hull armor, which I judged to make no difference to the outcome of any of the fights.

Point is, Graviton beams are support weapons. They are pure Gravy and highly defensive, letting you control fights with long range, high accuracy and great sustain.
I took that into account in my revised edit, which I made before you posted. I also calculated for only firing the Arbalests, and not firing at all.

You're not prevented from using them at the same time, but Light Needlers cover your shield-stripping needs very well indeed. Graviton Beams are both redundant and still not very good, so you might as well use the slot for something else, preferably something that's good vs armor like Phase Lances.

The default Assault Variant uses IR Pulse Lasers. Please tell me you actually swapped those out for medium-sized Pulse Lasers and didn't just use the default Assault Variant. Oh wait, you can't, the simulator doesn't let you. The AI also doesn't even bother moving in slightly closer to use Phase Lances if you give it some. The AI does not know how to fly or equip a Sunder. The Assault Sunder is particularly terrible; it has Sabots and Light Needlers, wasting its missile slots on more kinetic when what it really needs is some high explosive.

Additionally, Sunders are not designed to be fighting other Sunders 1v1. That's not what they're for. They're glass cannons, strike craft designed to hit hard targets that are busy shooting at other stuff, and are countered by anything that's able to get on their flank and shoot them. Trying to measure a Sunders effectiveness by whether it's able to blow up a different Sunder 1v1 is missing the point of the ship.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 02:03:14 AM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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TaLaR

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #519 on: January 08, 2016, 11:50:16 PM »

Please tell me you actually swapped those out for medium-sized Pulse Lasers and didn't just use the default Assault Variant. Oh wait, you can't, the simulator doesn't let you.

It is possible to modify ship list available in simulator, just add previously saved variant to sim_opponents.csv (cleaner approach would be doing it in a mod)
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #520 on: January 09, 2016, 01:03:56 AM »

Honestly, I've had good luck with a variety of Sunder builds - though almost all use some form of kinetic gun in the front small ballistic turrets.  HIL and 2x Pulse Laser works well - the HIL can take out fighters that'd otherwise be pesky, and helps force your opponents to keep shields up when you back off to vent.  Tachyon lance and 2x graviton beam works well; they may do soft flux to shields, but even cruisers can't shrug off that much damage, the lance rips through armor (and fighters), and the graviton beams keep the pressure up inbetween lance shots.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #521 on: January 09, 2016, 01:47:48 AM »

Honestly, I've had good luck with a variety of Sunder builds - though almost all use some form of kinetic gun in the front small ballistic turrets.  HIL and 2x Pulse Laser works well - the HIL can take out fighters that'd otherwise be pesky, and helps force your opponents to keep shields up when you back off to vent.  Tachyon lance and 2x graviton beam works well; they may do soft flux to shields, but even cruisers can't shrug off that much damage, the lance rips through armor (and fighters), and the graviton beams keep the pressure up inbetween lance shots.
I just ran a test in-sim using my max-skill testing character. Without an officer in the Sunder, using only the Tachyon Lance and Graviton Beams, and attempting to activate HEF whenever a Tac Lance shot was about to fire, it took 64 seconds for a Tachyon Lance 2x Graviton Beam Sunder to force a Support Dominator to drop its shields. When using only Light Needlers, the same Sunder took 30 seconds to force the same Dominator to drop shields. When using only Dual Autocannons, it took 36 seconds to force the same Dominator to drop shields.

It's mostly the ballistics.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #522 on: January 09, 2016, 06:27:02 AM »

There are three or four main uses of beams, if player kills fleet with one ship:
  • Missile defense
  • Anti-fighter/anti-shieldless
  • Forcing AI to keep shields up past 600 range (only need one beam for that)
  • Pile extra damage to armor/hull after 1000+ range ballistics do the work (for midline ships)

Phase Lance (and Tachyon Lance) can be used for assault against anything provided the attacker has kinetics pounding shields for hard flux (or over-stacking eight beams in case of Paragon).

Paragon can mount enough beams to overwhelm dissipation of an enemy ship, except an enemy Paragon with Fortress Shield.

Quote
All continuous beams are kind of lame ever since the flux damage bonus was removed.
I doubt it; they were side-graded.  Cheaper OP cost (and longer range for some beams) means I can spend more OP on other stuff to enable my ship kill things and/or defend itself more efficiently.  Most beams are still weak, and some are still bad.  LR PD Laser is underpowered and/or overpriced, Burst PD has too few charges and is overpriced.  Heavy Burst PD is barely stronger than the light version.
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Dri

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #523 on: January 09, 2016, 03:29:58 PM »

Tac Lasers are my go-to filler weapon for small energy slots when I don't have anything particular I want to put in them. I like'em; the enemy AI doesn't know how to handle their long range very well.
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #524 on: January 09, 2016, 03:46:55 PM »

Hmm, interesting. Odd how before people kept saying that beams were useless, which I disagreed with, and now, when I find them quite lackluster, and state as such, people now have a bunch of reasons why they don't suck.

They are good if you are larger than your target, or if they lack shields. IF they have shields, you need at least one size class on them, ideally more, otherwise shields can shrug off most beams. If they have no shields, beams, due to perfect accuracy, tear through armor eventually, and no amount of good flying can do anything.

~
This is why I am trying to make a mod that gives beams hard flux damage, and already made a global armor regeneration mod.
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