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Author Topic: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 200486 times)

RawCode

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #495 on: January 08, 2016, 03:15:22 AM »

solar shielding is extremely weak for 10th level feat.

there is no realible way to lure enemy fleet into corona and beam resistance is joke compared to other feats.

basically it is 10% beam resistance only vs 200 range for 7th level optics or 50-20 movespeed for aug engines.

i wont ever try to mention 0.5% hp regen on high hp capital that can provide more regen that some ships have dps.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #496 on: January 08, 2016, 06:28:02 AM »

solar shielding is extremely weak for 10th level feat.
So is Omni Shield Emitter, given its exorbitant OP cost and shield arc cut.  I post this to mean this needs fixing too.

Most beams are already weak, thanks to low DPS and no hard flux to shields, without any help from Solar Shielding.  If Solar Shielding cut beam damage more, then beams will be too unreliable except against fighters and missiles.
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RawCode

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #497 on: January 08, 2016, 07:23:13 AM »

balance is not issue for alpha state game, issue is generic concept of useless "skills".

there is simply no reason to pick some skills, no matter how game will develop and what will be implemented, some skill will remain completely useless no matter what.

ever if solar shielding will provide complete immunity to beams, reasonable player wont pick it.
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Taverius

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #498 on: January 08, 2016, 09:29:06 AM »

Given that Alex is working on an overhaul of the skills - and anyway, we can't really judge the value of a skillpoint without the industry line and the skills/gameplay that go with them - I'm not sure there's a great deal of point in arguing about the skills themselves. They mostly work, they're mostly fine, and it'll all be changing anyway sometime in the future.

Hull mods is another thing, and sure, Solar Shielding is pretty weak, and I don't think flux storm protection will change its value greatly except for smuggler playstyles. But then we also get into what the point of vanilla beams is currently, and I don't think this is the right place for that.

Storms make me think of another thing I've been reflecting on lately, how AI fleets travel in hyperspace - I blessedly never had to do path-finding when I was coding for a living but campaign-level hazard avoidance looks to be a real gem of an issue Alex, I don't envy you. Well, except in an abstract "ooh what a neat and difficult issue I get to try lots of things for" way.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #499 on: January 08, 2016, 09:50:07 AM »

ever if solar shielding will provide complete immunity to beams, reasonable player wont pick it.
If it did that and the hullmod would be common on endgame threats like say, elite Sindrian detachments, that means I need to reconfigure my ships to not use beams.  For example, sniper beam Eagle would be ruined, and I would either need to use a configuration more useful against everyone or abandon Eagle and use Dominator instead.
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Mudanzas Valencia

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #500 on: January 08, 2016, 09:51:13 AM »

solar shields become solar nanites, increase CR recovery in the presencne of suns  ;D

haha, another terrible idea

edit: it is interesting how some hullmods are OP compared to others. Pretty sure all my ships, no matter what, get augmented engines and integrated range extender. Most get stabilized shields too because flux venting is pretty much the be all end all besides speed, and stabilized shields are de facto more flux vents, sometimes many more flux vents per unit OP, than just tacking on more vents directly. armor is usually neglected entirely

speed, vents, range and manuverability in that order of importance in terms of OP and hullmods
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 09:58:11 AM by Question »
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The Soldier

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #501 on: January 08, 2016, 10:49:49 AM »

For example, sniper beam Eagle would be ruined, and I would either need to use a configuration more useful against everyone or abandon Eagle and use Dominator instead.
Seems reasonable if you ask me.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #502 on: January 08, 2016, 12:24:37 PM »

@ The Soldier:  How so?  If only beams become victim of immunity, that is yet another strike against beams, and immunity would reduce variety in ships and configurations.
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The Soldier

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #503 on: January 08, 2016, 12:53:57 PM »

@ The Soldier:  How so?  If only beams become victim of immunity, that is yet another strike against beams, and immunity would reduce variety in ships and configurations.
Beams have a massive range advantage in the small slots, fairl advantage in medium (they outrange 90% of the weapons in the medium slot), and fall behind a bit in large.  Range itself is valuable, and depending on the situation, better than DPS.  So there's that.

The fact that beams don't make hard flux is effectively the same as Fragmentation damage doing 25% damage to shields and hulls - use it where it will be effective.  So for example, don't use beam weapons against ships outfitted with Solar Shielding (might be good to mention when targeting a ship or having a small visual effect on the hull to indicate that Solar Shielding has been fitted, though) until you've stripped away the armor.  Doesn't seem very terrible at all if you ask me.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 12:56:27 PM by The Soldier »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #504 on: January 08, 2016, 01:35:28 PM »

I have not tried Solar Shielding (due to being in a skill I never put points in)... The beam works only against armor?  Not shields, not hull?  (Nevermind shields, shields usually hard counter beams already.)

Quote
So for example, don't use beam weapons against ships outfitted with Solar Shielding (might be good to mention when targeting a ship or having a small visual effect on the hull to indicate that Solar Shielding has been fitted, though) until you've stripped away the armor.  Doesn't seem very terrible at all if you ask me.
That is a problem because that tells me do not use beams.  Use more low-tech or midline ships, or fit high-tech shields with nothing but pulse lasers and blasters, which I generally do anyway.  In other words, this reduces the variety of viable ships.

If hullmod gave immunity, player would need something to mark an enemy with immunity.

Fragmentation is not a good example.  Of what we have, Vulcan has extremely high DPS and outperforms all small beams at close-range PD for less.  Dual Flak is basically an area-of-effect Vulcan with more range.  Single flak is still good PD, though not top tier.  Thumper is the only bad weapon.  Most fragmentation weapons are extremely damaging once they hit hull, and all except Thumper excel at PD.  (Vulcan is a no brainer PD option for Hammerhead - low OP cost and excellent stopping power; Burst PD is too expensive, the rest lack stopping power if coming from only one turret.)
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #505 on: January 08, 2016, 02:56:53 PM »

Vulcan Cannons do 500 DPS. Even after the 1/4 modifier vs shields and armor, that's 125 DPS for 20 FPS, which has to be the most flux-efficient weapon in the game. Its only downfall is the 250 range, but missiles and fighters like to get real close anyway. Vulcans are far more effective at protecting the targeted ship than any beam-based PD.

Beams that aren't Tactical Lasers are underpowered, and Tactical Lasers aren't particularly amazing either. Not dealing hard flux is crippling, even with their high range. Graviton Beams are kind of a joke, being only slightly more effective vs shields than 2 Tactical Lasers and less effective vs armor and hull. Their only good point is that they're flux efficient, but they do so little that their flux efficiency is wasted. They're only good on Close Support Wolves, and only then because the Wolf has bad flux stats, and CS Wolves are only really good against other Frigates anyway. I would honestly rather leave the weapon slot empty than use a Graviton Beam on anything other than a Wolf, they're wasted OP. High Intensity Lasers are even more of a joke; it's just 3 Tactical Lasers that can't turn as fast while firing. Tachyon Lances are terrible now that the EMP-Arc bug has been fixed. It's just a Phase Lance with more range and 50% higher DPS that costs 3 times as much OP. A good starting change would be to double or triple the damage of Graviton Beams, High Intensity Lasers, and Tachyon Lances, see how that effects the game, and work from there.

Phase Lances are half-decent. They're sort of like Harpoons, in that they're best used on ships that are about to overload, but they need to be supported by other weapons that deal hard flux damage. The issue is, they take up a medium slot and high-tech ships don't have the medium slots to spend on dedicated finisher weaponry. I'd suggest either making them a small weapon and reducing the refire rate from 10 to 6.5 shots a minute, making them a high OP small weapon with a specialized purpose sort of like the Antimatter Blaster and Light Needler, or leaving them a medium weapon and increasing their refire rate to 15 shots per minute, making them more able to bust through shields on their own.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 03:00:30 PM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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Schwartz

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #506 on: January 08, 2016, 03:37:20 PM »

Disagree about Tac Lasers and Tachyon Lances. They're both very good. Endgame, I flew an Odyssey with an all-out Tac Laser & Tachyon Lance layout and it works amazingly well.

I've also never warmed up to Graviton Beams; giving a beam kinetic damage is like one step forward, two steps back. For a shield-threatening beam, it's not good enough against shields, and the damage type also makes it weak vs. armour.

Phase Lances are excellent because you can give them two range buffs. I use them frequently and wouldn't want to see them changed, except for maybe upping the range by 50-100 units. I seem to recall they used to have a little more range, anyway?
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #507 on: January 08, 2016, 03:59:20 PM »

All end-game loadouts work well because you're overpowered. The question is how well a given endgame loadout works compared to other endgame loadouts, and a ship built around PRAZMA or Autopulse shreds things a lot better than a ship built around Tac Lances or HILs.

I agree that Graviton Beams being kinetic-type is a broken kneecap on top of a spinal cord injury.

A particular weapon being dependent on a hull-mod isn't a good thing for the game; the hullmod just becomes an OP tax for using the weapon, and Advanced Optics is even more of an OP tax than you'd think because it needs to be paired with Advanced Turret Gyros.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 04:01:28 PM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #508 on: January 08, 2016, 04:08:36 PM »

Tactical Lasers are generally weak, but useful.  Graviton Beam is too weak for its cost (it should cost no more than 8 OP with its current stats); I will happily replace Graviton Beam with Tactical Laser if I do not have enough OP.  Current Tachyon Lance would be fine if it costs 20 OP instead of the exorbitant 32 OP; personally, I like Tachyon Lance to get its 2500 range back (and still do 250-300 DPS) and keep its 32 OP cost.  For 0.7.1, I will always take plasma cannon or even autopulse over tachyon lance.

@ Schwartz:  Phase Lance had 700 range when it used to be a continuous Phase Beam.

I would like to see Phase Lance with more range.  Currently, if I do not have Advanced Optics, I never use Phase Lance because Pulse Laser and Heavy Blaster have the same range and cause hard flux - critical when waging the flux war.  If I get Advanced Optics, I occasionally use Phase Lance because ships like Medusa and Eagle can then kill things at 800 range with Phase Lance/kinetics combo instead of 600 range with non-beam energy weapons.
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: Starsector 0.7.1a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #509 on: January 08, 2016, 06:56:49 PM »

I still wish that beams would do a small fraction of their DPS as hard flux to shields. It doesn't have to be 100%, and probably would be OP if it was, but 10% or 25% would be plenty.

Unfortunately getting beam DPS via script is a lot harder than it should be.

---
Giving Graviton beams a small amount of hard flux damage, or else some kind of snare effect might be interesting. First would make it something of a shield breaker, while the second would make it an interesting anti-fighter option (or possibly anti-frigate depending on power)
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