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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Diable Avionics 2.04 (2019/05/14)  (Read 446243 times)

SaltyDog

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.85 (01/07/2017)
« Reply #675 on: July 28, 2017, 04:35:21 PM »

If you're trying out fits you could also try a Recson V/SRAB combo
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SapphireSage

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.85 (01/07/2017)
« Reply #676 on: July 28, 2017, 04:39:18 PM »

In my personal experience, I've been avoiding the use of IBIS on any of my ships since in 0.7.2 I've had more than a few losses for no other reason than due to my ships wanting to engage the enemy in IBIS range. The Fractus is also quite slow as well though, so it may not be wading into battle but the frigates are coming to them.

For the wings I will say that of all of DAs wings, Frosts are the third best at taking out frigates and other wings (aside from Valiants and Arbitrators) are not worth using if you need frigate hunters.

The vapors I've found to be very reliable at staying alive against most situations that don't involve super-prototype frigate ships so long as you give them good long range poke. I will echo ANGRY's sentiment about outfitting them with 2x Trifire guns when you can. 2x Recson V is good too, but will suffer against heavily armored destroyers and Recson Vs are only available from DA markets at coop level I believe. Also at coop level, you could try out one Recson V and one Trifire. I don't believe SRABs are very good for vapors since firing one takes about its whole flux cap and it can be easily shot down by any PD or absorbed on shield.

The Fractus does need some escorts to help prevent anything from walking up to it and killing it. Poor shielding and terrible speed made worse by its system don't help its case too much, but two frost wings can make it very deadly to all but the fastest frigates/destroyers. Piloting it yourself can also help prevent it from actively moving into the fight, especially with its Long range ship system while targeting enemies of opportunity. Thrush does indeed play well into its range game with its ship system, but if you put on the Thrush and only have IBIS on the smalls I do believe(though I'm not certain) that the AI will only take those IBIS into account in terms of its own personal range and therefore will attempt to use those for combat. This, I believe is because the AI does not take missile weapons into account for engagement purposes, though they do when they want to use the missile for burst.

Also, if you can afford the OP you can use Micro missiles to freak out the enemy frigates' AI and cause them to always be scared or thunderbolts as a harpoonlike missile. Elsewise, I believe Magicbox PD missiles are available early on and are quite good at stopping a few missiles here and there.
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King Alfonzo

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.85 (01/07/2017)
« Reply #677 on: July 28, 2017, 06:56:37 PM »

The vapors I've found to be very reliable at staying alive against most situations that don't involve super-prototype frigate ships so long as you give them good long range poke. I will echo ANGRY's sentiment about outfitting them with 2x Trifire guns when you can. 2x Recson V is good too, but will suffer against heavily armored destroyers and Recson Vs are only available from DA markets at coop level I believe. Also at coop level, you could try out one Recson V and one Trifire. I don't believe SRABs are very good for vapors since firing one takes about its whole flux cap and it can be easily shot down by any PD or absorbed on shield.

Twin-phase lance vapor is the ultimate in frigate hunter-killing, while also performing admirably as a support strike ship against anything smaller than a capital ship. Used best in AI hands - they are able to swing the ship around during the speed up and keep the enemy ship under phase lance beams.

Tartiflette

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.85 (01/07/2017)
« Reply #678 on: July 29, 2017, 01:31:49 AM »

The Grave is too flux heavy for a Vapor to handle, the Glowtusk is just not very good right now, and they're both sub-700 range.
I disagree with the Glowtusk being bad. It's the perfect tool to overload ships for a long time, and if you hit the hull with it, bad thingstm happen.
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Arkar1234

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.85 (01/07/2017)
« Reply #679 on: July 29, 2017, 04:28:59 AM »

The Grave is too flux heavy for a Vapor to handle, the Glowtusk is just not very good right now, and they're both sub-700 range.
I disagree with the Glowtusk being bad. It's the perfect tool to overload ships for a long time, and if you hit the hull with it, bad thingstm happen.

Yeah... The Glowtusk seems surprisingly strong against hull/armor for a kinetic weapon. What i usually do is to just load double glowtuskes on the Vapors. Works great.

Although, I'm not too certain about the role of SRABs, they seem kinda meh for the thirteen OP cost. Doesn't really help that most of the SRAB bolts get intercepted by PD easily.
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SaltyDog

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.85 (01/07/2017)
« Reply #680 on: July 29, 2017, 08:11:30 AM »

I was looking at the data.csv's trying to learn how to read them. I noticed that in your other mods like Scy and ORA you have CARRIER or CARRIER,COMBAT under the hints. I also noticed vanilla and other mods do this as well, but for Diable's Fractus and Storm there's nothing. It's just something I noticed and I'm not sure it'll change anything at all or if that was intended.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.85 (01/07/2017)
« Reply #681 on: July 29, 2017, 09:18:31 AM »

I removed them in an earlier version where the Carrier AI was bugged and already added them back in the dev version, but it still causes some issues. In any case I'll try to release something tomorrow.
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SapphireSage

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.85 (01/07/2017)
« Reply #682 on: July 29, 2017, 01:14:47 PM »

The vapors I've found to be very reliable at staying alive against most situations that don't involve super-prototype frigate ships so long as you give them good long range poke. I will echo ANGRY's sentiment about outfitting them with 2x Trifire guns when you can. 2x Recson V is good too, but will suffer against heavily armored destroyers and Recson Vs are only available from DA markets at coop level I believe. Also at coop level, you could try out one Recson V and one Trifire. I don't believe SRABs are very good for vapors since firing one takes about its whole flux cap and it can be easily shot down by any PD or absorbed on shield.

Twin-phase lance vapor is the ultimate in frigate hunter-killing, while also performing admirably as a support strike ship against anything smaller than a capital ship. Used best in AI hands - they are able to swing the ship around during the speed up and keep the enemy ship under phase lance beams.

While this is no doubt true, this goes against the house rule that squish cat uses to only make use of DA ships and weaponry. I must admit, I do not know the effectiveness of this since I follow a lighter version of this rule myself.

Yeah... The Glowtusk seems surprisingly strong against hull/armor for a kinetic weapon. What i usually do is to just load double glowtuskes on the Vapors. Works great.

Although, I'm not too certain about the role of SRABs, they seem kinda meh for the thirteen OP cost. Doesn't really help that most of the SRAB bolts get intercepted by PD easily.

SRABs can be useful in a larger fleet if you have a large amount of MMs (or a maelstrom or two) and wanzers in your fleet to tie up enemy PD and want to have what is essentially a quickly regenerating, HE missile in a medium energy slot with ~900 range. I recently replaced most of them with trifires since the HP nerf because as far as I've noticed it has made them far too unreliable at hitting the enemy target in larger engagements as well as minor skirmishes.

Glowtusks can be strong against shields and hull when the armor is down, but I believe its typically not considered as good as recsons due to lower range, half the firing rate, and a bit less DPS total than the Recson V. Though it does cost less OP than Recson V, its less range is a particular issue due to DA ships having shields only slightly better than low tech(due to more flux cap generally) and armor on par with midtech vanilla ships.
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Squish Cat

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.85 (01/07/2017)
« Reply #683 on: July 30, 2017, 04:05:46 AM »

I haven't had the chance to play again until recently.  So I finally refit my fleet and tried out the various recommendations.  I will say that things have definitely improved and my Vapors are surviving better.

First thing I tried was dual Recson V's.  This made the Vapors live forever, but at the same time, they could never kill anything.  Recson V projectiles were simply too slow to ever hit the target unless it was a destroyer.  At best, the Vapors just ended up being a distraction and nothing else.  Certainly a viable tactic if thats all you want your frigates to be, but I want my frigates to have teeth, though.  Recson Vs themselves seem to really only be reliable against destroyer and bigger ships.

Then I tried dual Trifires.  Muuuuch better results!  They were actually able to kill things at a range that didn't have them suiciding to superior fire power.  Only problem is that they tend to take their sweet time killing anything.  Time to kill is a bit low to my liking, but the Vapors are no longer dying left and right like they were at least.

Tried a twin Glowtusk set up just to see what would happen.  In the hands of the AI, they won't fire these things unless they're at point blank range for some reason.  They always fly in super close and get wrecked.  The other problem is that firing two of them eats half the flux capacity of a Vapor, and if they turn their shields on at any point, they'll immediately get fluxed out from enemy weapons fire.  This is from the Vapors firing the Glowtusks just one time.  When I was flying the Vapor, obviously I'd use the weapons at the proper ranges.  However, I found that the flux generated by hitting the enemies shields would all be gone by the time I could fire the Glowtusks again.  They fire too slowly to manage to get past enemy shields, and the flux generation also makes using these weapons a huge problem.  Glowtusks probably work well on a destroyer but I don't think the frigates can handle the flux these weapons produce.

Just for the lulz I tried the twin Phase Lances in the simulator and found that the flux generation was even worse than the Glowtusks.  Was kinda neat being able to fully saturate an enemy frigate's flux with these though.  Ultimately I still couldn't get past the shields without fluxing myself out and putting myself into serious risk of overloading.  I love challenges, but not ones that would put me at excessive risk like that.

All in all I'm beginning to realize that the bigger issue here regarding the Vapors is more to do with Diable's weapon systems than the ships themselves.  Diable's weapons seem quite flux intensive and the Vapors do not have the flux capacity to handle them.  This is most apparent when going up against ships such as Lashers who can dish out similar damage but keep right on going due to their much more flux efficient weapons.  Wolves on the other hand get eaten pretty regularly by my Vapors.

Unfortunately, I got caught by a Cabal fleet that had 2 Starlight Tempests and a bunch of random other junk and wasn't able to get away without losing my Fractus.  Kinda saw that coming even before hitting "Disengage", which of course didn't work.  Starlight Tempests are like fast mini-destroyers so I certainly don't blame the Fractus getting wrecked like it did.

Picked up a Calm as a replacement for the Fractus and I'm pretty happy with this destroyer.  Put a pair of Recson V's on it with 4 Thunderbolt MRM Racks.  Managed to solo two hammerheads at the same time with this ship quite easily.  I am having a bit of a different problem, though.  I installed Converted Hangar with a Frost LPC, and they're great for dealing with frigates that engage me, but the replacement rate of fighters is so terrible that I find myself without fighters at all for most of the fight.  This is the first time I've actually used the Converted Hangar and was wondering what other peoples opinion on this hull mod was.  Would I be better off just dropping it for ECCM (faster more agile missiles would be very nice) and better Capacitor stats?

Later I grabbed a Hayle, fitted it with 2x Recson Vs, 1 SRAB, 4x Micromissiles and 2x Thunderbolt MRM Racks.  The lack of PD is apparent and even Magicbox PDs wouldn't really work due to the orientation of the missile slots.  But other than that, it feels like a solid destroyer.  Again, like the Calm, I fit a Converted Hangar using a Frost LPC and I'm wondering if it would be better to drop that for ECCM.  Also, keep the 2x Recson Vs and the SRAB or go 2x SRAB and 1 Recson V?

Is the SRAB projectile considered a missile?  If I fit ECCM, would that apply to the SRAB ball?

« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 04:14:25 AM by Squish Cat »
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Althaea

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.85 (01/07/2017)
« Reply #684 on: July 30, 2017, 04:15:29 AM »

Picked up a Calm as a replacement for the Fractus and I'm pretty happy with this destroyer.  Put a pair of Recson V's on it with 4 Thunderbolt MRM Racks.  Managed to solo two hammerheads at the same time with this ship quite easily.  I am having a bit of a different problem, though.  I installed Converted Hangar with a Frost LPC, and they're great for dealing with frigates that engage me, but the replacement rate of fighters is so terrible that I find myself without fighters at all for most of the fight.  This is the first time I've actually used the Converted Hangar and was wondering what other peoples opinion on this hull mod was.  Would I be better off just dropping it for ECCM (faster more agile missiles would be very nice) and better Capacitor stats?

Converted Hangar is a great hullmod - problem is that it doesn't sync well with certain fighters. Owing to the replacement time penalty, you either want something that gets replaced quickly to begin with (e.g. a vanilla Talon) or something that is quite survivable, typically a shielded heavy fighter. It might work with Valiants, Warlusts or (less likely) Ravens.

Most of the Wanzers are a fairly poor fit. They have long replacement times. The Wanzer Servicing Gantries that come in-built on DA's purpose-built carriers helps a fair bit with this, at least early in the battle.
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SaltyDog

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.85 (01/07/2017)
« Reply #685 on: July 30, 2017, 06:48:08 AM »

I installed Converted Hangar with a Frost LPC, and they're great for dealing with frigates that engage me, but the replacement rate of fighters is so terrible that I find myself without fighters at all for most of the fight.  This is the first time I've actually used the Converted Hangar and was wondering what other peoples opinion on this hull mod was.  Would I be better off just dropping it for ECCM (faster more agile missiles would be very nice) and better Capacitor stats?

Later I grabbed a Hayle, fitted it with 2x Recson Vs, 1 SRAB, 4x Micromissiles and 2x Thunderbolt MRM Racks.  The lack of PD is apparent and even Magicbox PDs wouldn't really work due to the orientation of the missile slots.  But other than that, it feels like a solid destroyer.  Again, like the Calm, I fit a Converted Hangar using a Frost LPC and I'm wondering if it would be better to drop that for ECCM.  Also, keep the 2x Recson Vs and the SRAB or go 2x SRAB and 1 Recson V?

Is the SRAB projectile considered a missile?  If I fit ECCM, would that apply to the SRAB ball?

If you're running a couple destroyers and some frigates, then it's time for you to grab at least two Fractus. With wanzers converted hangars are only to supplement your current fighter forces, not be your fighter forces. With the Hayle I ran with dual Glowtusks but I guess Recson V's probably work, a Raptor defense system in the middle slot, and six Thunderbolt missiles. Yes, I'd ditch Converted Hangars and grab ECCM with that setup. I've never piloted that Hayle setup, but the AI seems to handle it pretty well. With the SRAB I'm interested in the answer as well, but I'm sure I know the answer already.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.86RC1 (31/07/2017)
« Reply #686 on: July 30, 2017, 02:53:48 PM »

Require LazyWizard's LazyLib

Minor maintenance stuff accompanied by an experimental set of balance changes: In short, the Grave becomes Kinetic, and the Glowtusk High Explosive, with a few subsequent adjustments.

Also, slightly changed Draft sprite, with a bigger armor drone to better protect against shots not coming directly from the front.


Changelog:
Spoiler
1.86

BALANCING
 - IBIS and Raptor:
   . Reworked firing pattern with scripted spread,
   . Slightly buffed DPS, slightly nerfed projectile speed and flux efficiency.

 - State beam:
   . Lowered the flux requirement to 1:1 ratio.

 - Strife:
   . Raised the damage per shot of the minigun, reduced the fire-rate,
   . Raised the accuracy and projectile speed.

 - Frost:
   . Now all wanzers can use the slashing special move, not just the leader,
   . Cooldown raised accordingly.

 - Storm:
   . Deployment cost reduced to 28 supplies from 35.

 - Fractus:
   . Now equipped with a "Emergency refit" ship-system that lowers the refit time at the cost of faster depletion of the fighter replacement rate.

*experimental changes*

 - Glowtusk:
   . Now a high powered, long cooldown HE murder cannon.

 - Grave MG:
   . Now a kinetic stream of death.

 - Raven:
   . Now armed with a Glowtusk and a Grave HMC.

 - Recson V:
   . Significant buff to the per-shot damage,
   . Significant reduction of the fire-rate,
   . Significant buff to the flux per shot,
   . Range raised to 1000.

 - SRAB:
   . Range raised to 1000.

BUGFIXES/IMPROVEMENTS:

 - Changed some ship tags leading to better AI behaviors.
 - Wanzer Servicing Gantry hullmod now usable on non Diable ships.
 - Draft:
   . Improved sprite,
   . Slightly bigger armor drone that should better protect the front of the ship.
[close]
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Squish Cat

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.85 (01/07/2017)
« Reply #687 on: July 30, 2017, 08:33:00 PM »


If you're running a couple destroyers and some frigates, then it's time for you to grab at least two Fractus. With wanzers converted hangars are only to supplement your current fighter forces, not be your fighter forces. With the Hayle I ran with dual Glowtusks but I guess Recson V's probably work, a Raptor defense system in the middle slot, and six Thunderbolt missiles. Yes, I'd ditch Converted Hangars and grab ECCM with that setup. I've never piloted that Hayle setup, but the AI seems to handle it pretty well. With the SRAB I'm interested in the answer as well, but I'm sure I know the answer already.

How do you break shields with this set up?  Or are you using the Hayle as just a missile spammer and not worrying about whether it actually does anything or not?
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.85 (01/07/2017)
« Reply #688 on: July 30, 2017, 09:20:09 PM »

How do you break shields with this set up?  Or are you using the Hayle as just a missile spammer and not worrying about whether it actually does anything or not?
When he made that post, Glowtusks did Kinetic damage. Recsons also deal kinetic damage, at quite a long range.

Converted Hangar Wanzers are terrible. Not only do ships that can mount Converted Hangar not have the Servicing Gantry for a speedy few Wanzer repairs, the Wanzers take so long to replace with Converted Hangar's refit penalty that you'll run out of replacement rate long before you get your fighters back. Wanzers need to be mounted on actual carriers.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 09:22:33 PM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
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Bash

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Re: [0.8.1a] Diable Avionics 1.86 (31/07/2017)
« Reply #689 on: August 06, 2017, 07:41:10 AM »

can you give that raven wanzer his mostro back plz? :D
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