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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Diable Avionics 2.04 (2019/05/14)  (Read 444885 times)

Taverius

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #135 on: January 23, 2016, 03:22:45 PM »

Mmm well yeah, even with SS+ pure fighter fleets do have issues end-game, but the thing is that's not how DA fleets are supposed to work.

Wanzers are not supposed to operate in a vacuum, and once the deploy cost is commensurate to the combat ability of the ship we can actually operate in the ship + cover doctrine while hitting the deploy cap - that's just not viable atm because of the deploy costs we've been discussing.

Certainly its already competitive in the mid-game when you're not hitting the deploy cap and you can over-deploy on DA ships.

I'm not sure what values Tart will settle on but some quick testing says once you can deploy Gusts in number and not gimp yourself firepower-wise, the battlespace changes significantly. Suddenly all the wanzers have anvils to hammer enemies against, and you have an over-supply of fighter bays to boot.

As far as Templars go ... well, DA fleets depend on fighter cover, have poor PD, and their abysmal shield damage/flux ratios means they can only pressure when they themselves are not being pressured.

Templars are essentially the perfect hard counter to that set-up.

In no way ever is a DA ship capable of shooting down a CLARENT with IBIS and RAPTOR weapon systems, and Burchels are generally too expensive OP-wise to fit everywhere. They can't counter-pressure effectively, and Templar PD slaughters Wanzers. Not to mention Teutons are essentially immune to everything except Burchels and massed Valiant fire as the poor projectile speeds on primary DA weapons makes them unsuited to hitting fighters. Hexafire and micromissile spam helps with the latter somewhat but you're still at a disadvantage.

No way to change that without completely changing how DA is structured :D

In the larger campaign sense there's still other issues - others have mentioned it; AI DA fleets, especially the smaller ones, are crippled by their reliance on the DA combat freighter, which right now is a liability in combat, and nearly 1/2 of the ships being suicidal in the AI's hands doesn't help any - but well, best not to change too many things at once anyway.
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LB

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #136 on: January 23, 2016, 11:37:21 PM »

Noticed a few things:

-It seems that only one Raven out of a pair will use its Flicker Core.
-I tried and got uncertain results, but alternate wanzer role settings might be worth a look. Warlust/Raven would make more sense as SUPPORT, and Frost/Valiant might work better as INTERCEPTOR, for example.
-The Valiant tends to untransform too late when entering combat, and takes some unnecessary fire. Perhaps the threshold should be 1.2x nominal range rather than 0.9x.
-Vapors will continuously use Evasive Maneuver on cooldown, even when holding still. Maybe a different AI type will work better.
-An indicator of the current level of Advanced Avionics would be nice.

New sprites are spot-on and really nice. Aesthetics-wise, I think the Hexafire's shot group could use some front-to-back separation in addition to the horizontal drift. It looks unnaturally neat at the moment.
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Carroy

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #137 on: January 24, 2016, 08:56:57 AM »

I have been having a lot of fun with this faction, especially with its beam weapons. A Maelstorm equipped exclusively with beam weapons and a siege laser paired with a sh*tload of vents, shield redirection, improved turrets and ITU melts everything cruiser or less in a second. Its only weakness then is EMP damage but most things won't be able to get close enough.

I do agree that the ships are quite a bit weaker in AI hands. But if you stay in range of your friendlies with a build like described above, you create an instant kill zone for anything fast enough to flank your fragile friends. While also making them pretty much immune to missile pressure.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 08:59:52 AM by Alloy »
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #138 on: January 24, 2016, 08:59:37 AM »

-It seems that only one Raven out of a pair will use its Flicker Core.
Vanilla issue. Not solvable short of making a custom system AI (and that's a huge pain).
Quote
-I tried and got uncertain results, but alternate wanzer role settings might be worth a look. Warlust/Raven would make more sense as SUPPORT, and Frost/Valiant might work better as INTERCEPTOR, for example.
Warlusts are short ranged with a missile launcher: As support they won't use their main weapons. Ravens are meant to take on ships and need to be assigned to that order, and not follow other ships as escort. Frosts are definitively escorts, otherwise any wing will be picked up to fill that order. And for the Valiant I don't know, maybe?
Quote
-The Valiant tends to untransform too late when entering combat, and takes some unnecessary fire. Perhaps the threshold should be 1.2x nominal range rather than 0.9x.
I tried a lot of range combinations when writing the system's script and this work FAR better. With 1.2 range, the valiant untransform while still unable to hit it's target and never catch a single ship that isn't static or directly going toward the wing.
Quote
-Vapors will continuously use Evasive Maneuver on cooldown, even when holding still. Maybe a different AI type will work better.
Vanilla issue, custom AI are a pain, etc
Quote
-An indicator of the current level of Advanced Avionics would be nice.
I have yet to find a way to do that the same way system display their modifiers, so probably won't happen.
Quote
Aesthetics-wise, I think the Hexafire's shot group could use some front-to-back separation in addition to the horizontal drift. It looks unnaturally neat at the moment.
Not possible unless I catch the projectiles and manually replace them (super intense on the CPU) or spawn them ex nihilo (but they won't appear on the weapon card and won't be taken into account by the autofire AI). This is I think the best compromise.
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Taverius

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #139 on: January 24, 2016, 12:12:48 PM »

-An indicator of the current level of Advanced Avionics would be nice.
I have yet to find a way to do that the same way system display their modifiers, so probably won't happen.
You mean the way Neutronium Armor Plating status displays in the latest RC version of NC?

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LB

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #140 on: January 25, 2016, 12:19:47 AM »

I hacked an indicator together, if you want to take a look: https://www.mediafire.com/?i3fpvd2sfbmsuvu.





When I was testing this, I noticed that the range bonus definitely applies to all weapons, rather than just weapons under the range threshold as claimed. Try watching the default Calm's beam range in the simulator. Perhaps the lines after the getWeaponRangeMultPastThreshold().modifyPercent(...) call aren't necessary.

Playing with the indicator in place, I noticed that the great majority of fleet battles (even in the level >50 stage of the game) will be over before your capital ships can even spin up past normal accuracy. Might you consider making the boost stepping finer-grained (30s?) and reducing the required time for cruisers/capitals a little bit?

I also packed in tried exact copies of the Valiant, Raven, and Warlust set to alternate AI types (INTERCEPTOR for Valiant, SUPPORT for others).

Takeaways from comparing results from a few rounds in the simulator:
- Valiant combat AI behavior is unchanged. Not sure if increased response rate to Intercept orders would actually have much impact in a real engagement.
- Warlust combat AI behavior vs. single targets was greatly improved, I think. The FIGHTER role tends to do "attack runs", peeling off after a little circling to come back for another pass. This gives targets windows of opportunity to vent in relative safety. SUPPORT will linger in range and circle the target until it's dead or until individual fighters decide it's time to drop flux/refit. Warlusts will circle close enough to consistently fire the Grim. In larger engagements, results are less clear; SUPPORT has less of a tendency to overshoot the leading ships in the enemy line and get shredded by dense fire from the center of the enemy's formation, but the difference isn't very notable.
-Raven combat AI behavior is somewhat improved. Observations are largely the same as the Warlust. However, I noticed that SUPPORT does a better job at facing the target at all times, especially considering the Raven's slow turnrate. The aforementioned "attack run" behavior of FIGHTER often put the Raven in situations where it would be in range but wasn't facing the right way to fire.

Looks like both Ravens will use Flicker Core in combat, they just won't use it for transit. If you think it's worth the visual improvement, maybe setting the AI hint for effective speed increase to 0 might work? I'll give this a try later.

E: Link replaced.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 03:14:33 AM by LB »
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.5 - SS+ integration (31/01/2016)
« Reply #141 on: January 31, 2016, 06:40:32 AM »


Require LazyWizard's LazyLib
Compatible with LazyWizard's Version Checker.
Compatible with Histidine's Nexerelin.
Integrated to Dark.Revenant's Starsector +.

   Diable Avionics is now integrated to Starsector +. Prepare to face a significantly more dangerous faction with their random variants and leveled fleets! In addition to this, you'll find that several of the reported issues have been dealt with. Cruisers are cheaper and slightly more durable, some systems now relies more on a pool of charges rather than a short cool-down, the Hexafire is now more straight-forward in it's use, the Advanced Avionics current state is now displayed with the ship's status tooltips, and all wanzers wings now have a more explicit description of their roles.

   Finally, you'll find two new weapons: One is a simple one-shot Banish torpedo launcher, very cheap at 2 OP, not that damaging but it retain the very good tracking of it's larger cousin. The second is the Magic-Box Point-Defense missile system. That should help some of DA ships lacking many turrets mounts with Point-Defenses.

   [EDIT] This update shouldn't break any savegame. Probably. Maybe... I hope?

CHANGELOG
Spoiler
Code
1.5

NEW FEATURE:
 - SS+ INTEGRATION.

NEW CONTENT:
 - Banish Torpedo (Single):
   . Cheap single-shot torpedo rack for small missiles mounts.
 - Magic-box Anti-missile missile:
   . Small missile launcher loaded with shrapnel to intercept incoming missiles.
   . Reloads over time.

BALANCING:
 - Gust:
   . Deployment/monthly cost reduced to 20 supplies from 25.
   . Hull raised to 7500 from 7250.
 - Haze:
   . Deployment/monthly cost reduced to 28 supplies from 35.
   . Armor raised to 1000 from 900.
   . Hull raised to 10000 from 9000.
   . Shield widened to 120 degrees from 90.
 - Storm:
   . Deployment/monthly cost reduced to 35 supplies from 40.
   . Armor raised to 1100 from 975.
   . Shield widened to 90 degrees from 50.
 - MaelStrom:
   . Deployment/monthly cost reduced to 40 supplies from 50.
   . Armor raised to 1300 from 1250.
   . Shield widened to 90 degrees from 60.
   . Added 3 small Hybrid turrets to the front.
   . Ordinance Points raised to 250 from 235.
 - Pandemonium:
   . Deployment/monthly cost reduced to 50 supplies from 60.
   . Armor raised to 1800 from 1500.
   . Shield widened to 90 degrees from 75.
   . Added 4 small Hybrid turrets to the front.
   . Ordinance Points raised to 420 from 400.
   . Weapons arcs are now more generous.
 - Hexafire:
   . Reduced range to 900 from 975.
   . Removed the random 20 points extra damage.
   . Raised the damage per buckshot to 100 from 55.
   . Lowered the fire-rate to 30 from 50.
   . Raised the flux per shot to 1400 from 700.
 - Plover Pod:
   . Halved the rockets dispersion.
 - Derecho:
   . System's cool-down reduced to 10 seconds from 20.
 - Flicker Core ship-system:
   . Increased the number of uses to 2 charges from 1 but with a recharge rate of 10 seconds from 2.
 - Heavy Flicker Core ship-system:
   . Increased the number of uses to 4 charges from 2 but with a recharge rate of 10 seconds from 2.
 - Evasive Maneuver ship-system:
   . Increased the number of uses to 3 charges from 2 but with a recharge rate of 10 seconds from 4.

BUGFIXES/IMPROVEMENTS:
 - "Fixed" the Vapor continuously using it's ship system without charges when controlled by the AI. (removed the empty sound really)
 - Moved the Outer Terminus system South to avoid the Templar fleets.
 - Added the current state of the ship's "Advanced Avionics" to the satus tooltips.
 - Improved all Wanzers descriptions to indicate their roles.
[close]

« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 06:53:21 AM by Tartiflette »
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Ahne

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.5 - SS+ integration (31/01/2016)
« Reply #142 on: January 31, 2016, 06:43:11 AM »

damn, now i have to start again with a new playthrough :p
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DrakonST

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.5 - SS+ integration (31/01/2016)
« Reply #143 on: January 31, 2016, 07:09:49 AM »

How many updatings! Oh God! How many mods were updated! :D
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grinningsphinx

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.5 - SS+ integration (31/01/2016)
« Reply #144 on: January 31, 2016, 10:16:42 AM »

Avionics has nothing to do with weapon ranges...
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JohnDoe

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.5 - SS+ integration (31/01/2016)
« Reply #145 on: January 31, 2016, 10:25:33 AM »

And all ballistic weapons should have unlimited range. /s
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.5 - SS+ integration (31/01/2016)
« Reply #146 on: January 31, 2016, 10:31:23 AM »

Avionics has nothing to do with weapon ranges...
Mhhhh maybe, just maybe, you could launch the game and read the complete description. (that reply goes for your four or five last posts btw)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 10:42:23 AM by Tartiflette »
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Taverius

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.5 - SS+ integration (31/01/2016)
« Reply #147 on: January 31, 2016, 04:37:51 PM »

Whipped up a test save to try out the new shiny, quick notes:

  • AI seems to use the new and improved Hexafire well.
    DPS might be a little high, especially since with gunnery implants 10 or Gunnery Control AI the projectile spread is a non-thing.
    Also, since its a double-mount, any chance of a single-mount medium?
  • Magicbox is awesome, you can use it to make Vapors & Hayles that the AI can use and not instantly explode, which is just lovely.
    Some do get wasted against slow missiles as they try to hit them while they're still inside the launched ship's shield, which I don't notice with normal (ie, gun) PD weapons.
    Maybe something to mention to Alex? Possibly could be improved by changes in the autofire AI. Right now putting them on alternate fire group doesn't seem to help as the autofire AI always fires the whole group anyway.
    Also now I want a medium version, would be useful on the Haze, Gust, Storm and Pandemonium.
    I also love that you balanced them to the same OP cost as the Micromissile, being able to tune for DPS or defense without OP changes is a nice feeling. ^^
  • Giev Derecho moar ops pls :<
  • Plovers can actually hit what you aim them at! Free from the tyranny of Thrushes on my Haze! They're pretty good for helping a Grave-based setup against heavier armor now.
    I still don't give non-regenerating missiles to the AI, but that one's on Alex. :P
  • Single banish lets me bring them on a Maelstrom which is nice.
    I feel the refire rate should be 6/minute like the single Atropos and Reaper, rather than 60 like the double launchers - this matters with missiles 5.
    Also since I'm being a spoiled child I might as well ask for a double mount. :3

P.S. The 6 small missile slots on the Will-Breaker Pandemonium variant are empty.

P.P.S. You need to add the "PD" tag to the Magicbox on top of the "PD_ONLY" one that's already present. Otherwise AI ships will try to shoot target ships with them - especially if it sets other groups on autofire.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 07:04:13 PM by Taverius »
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.5 - SS+ integration (31/01/2016)
« Reply #148 on: February 01, 2016, 12:52:46 AM »

Thanks for the feedback!

. AI seems to use the new and improved Hexafire well.
DPS might be a little high, especially since with gunnery implants 10 or Gunnery Control AI the projectile spread is a non-thing.
Also, since its a double-mount, any chance of a single-mount medium?
I was skeptical about the DPS too at first, played with several values but in the end this one stuck. It's terrific against shields, and missiles based ships as they get shot right off the launcher, but it can't penetrate armor. If you compare it to it's closest competitor the Mjolnir it's actually slightly inferior in a lot of cases. A medium version could be interesting.

Quote
. Magicbox is awesome, you can use it to make Vapors & Hayles that the AI can use and not instantly explode, which is just lovely.
Some do get wasted against slow missiles as they try to hit them while they're still inside the launched ship's shield, which I don't notice with normal (ie, gun) PD weapons.
Maybe something to mention to Alex? Possibly could be improved by changes in the autofire AI. Right now putting them on alternate fire group doesn't seem to help as the autofire AI always fires the whole group anyway.
Also now I want a medium version, would be useful on the Haze, Gust, Storm and Pandemonium.
I also love that you balanced them to the same OP cost as the Micromissile, being able to tune for DPS or defense without OP changes is a nice feeling. ^^
All PD weapons fire on missiles as soon as they are in rage, even inside the shield. You don't notice it on normal ones because they also fire at ships. I found that having the missiles always firing even in alternating mode is a very good balancing factor: They are an absolutely terrific PD solution, but you can't make a ship immune to missiles by simply adding more of them in all those small missile mounts. Their efficiency tend to stagnate beyond 3 or 4 of them on a large ship since more and more get wasted. It's a very good complement to standard PD, but not as magic as it could lead you to believe.
I don't think a medium version is in order. Every Diable ship can mount them already and a more efficient version would be straight up OP imo.

Quote
. Giev Derecho moar ops pls :<
I believe it has the standard vanilla amount. I'll double check but don't get your hopes too high.

Quote
. Plovers can actually hit what you aim them at! Free from the tyranny of Thrushes on my Haze! They're pretty good for helping a Grave-based setup against heavier armor now.
I still don't give non-regenerating missiles to the AI, but that one's on Alex. :P
I hate missiles regen and most of the missiles buffs in the recent versions. I think it removed a large chunk of the tactical aspect of the game since now venting is as much a death sentence as overloading when every ships on the map and their mothers will unload a swarm of super fast harpoon that will insta-kill you.

Quote
. Single banish lets me bring them on a Maelstrom which is nice.
I feel the refire rate should be 6/minute like the single Atropos and Reaper, rather than 60 like the double launchers - this matters with missiles 5.
Also since I'm being a spoiled child I might as well ask for a double mount. :3
Oops, corrected the refire rate ^^. As for a double mount, maybe?

Quote
. The 6 small missile slots on the Will-Breaker Pandemonium variant are empty.
Yup, they are. There used to be more variants with empty mounts, to add more vents, but I added some Magic-Boxes on most of them.

Quote
. You need to add the "PD" tag to the Magicbox on top of the "PD_ONLY" one that's already present. Otherwise AI ships will try to shoot target ships with them - especially if it sets other groups on autofire.
Re-oops, corrected too.
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Taverius

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.5 - SS+ integration (31/01/2016)
« Reply #149 on: February 01, 2016, 11:50:25 AM »

Quote
. Giev Derecho moar ops pls :<
I believe it has the standard vanilla amount. I'll double check but don't get your hopes too high.
A Hammerhead doesn't have to mount a Hexafire - which in the context of large DA weapons is the only viable choice there.

Derecho with Hexa, Thrush and 2 IBIS is considerably more OP-starved than a Sunder with a comparable setup.

Yes, its not a Sunder, but it does have a large energy mount and costs 10 to deploy, it needs a bit more OP wiggle room - a large gun mount on a dessie means it is, in the end, a full combat ship with ECM functionality rather than a support ship.

Well, it can be tight to fit, but then it has to be cheap to deploy too, like the SS+ Vanguard.
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