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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Diable Avionics 2.04 (2019/05/14)  (Read 447178 times)

Taverius

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #120 on: January 19, 2016, 10:29:03 AM »

No idea but its boneShatterer in the 1.3 archive and bonesShatterer in the 1.4 archive *shrug* eh, it happens.
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HELMUT

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #121 on: January 21, 2016, 08:56:20 AM »

I just finished a DA campaign. Early game felt pretty difficult, not so much because of the ships, but more because of the remote location of their stations and the necessity to cross the "ocean of hyperstorms" to reach Outer Terminus (played corvus mode). Otherwise, it was a pretty fun ride, even if i struggled quite a bit during very late game, being "forced" to use fighters with the current ship slot system.

For the ships, the Vapor frigate felt like a Wolf on steroids. Like its vanilla counterpart, it's a glass cannon that rely on mobility and with its evasive system, it's an ideal starter ship. Really hard to catch but still extremely allergic to Salamanders. The standard variant i started with felt very underwhelming, the attack variant with the dual Grave/Recson is infinitely better for pirate hunting.

The Draft is a strictly support ship, and a pretty good one as a first wingman. It works like a Kite or Vigilance, you have to escort it while it keep the pressure with its 4 small missiles. A Salamander Draft is a pretty mean ship to anything without omni-shield. The lack of shield isn't a problem for early game, even though the Arcus armor will rapidly show its limit against bigger calibers.

In the destroyer category, the Calm is just a bigger Draft. It flies like a non-crappy Buffalo MK.II. It can brawl surprisingly well (kinda) against frigates early on, thanks to the two armor drones. It's still pretty much a purely fire-support ship though.

The Hayle is like an hybrid between the mobile Medusa with the firepower of the Enforcer. I think it's the best Diable flagship for the player, it's really fast and the huge frontal missile firepower make it an amazing hunter killer. Not fantastic for the AI though, the frontal shield coupled with long profile, with the teleporter on top of it make it an easy target. It can still be built as a fire support though, but the Calm's here for that already.

Like said earlier in the thread, the Stratus is pretty much a Mule. It's not as tough, and can't mount medium missile for long range fire support, but the two Wanzers that come with it are pretty handy for early game. It won't hold it against anything bigger than a destroyer though.

The Derecho felt quite good to me. It's pretty much a Sunder, even though it doesn't quite have to same frontal firepower. The medium missile coupled with the large hybrid still make it a pretty dangerous ship, even in the hands of the AI. I'm not sure about its ship system though. I haven't really noticed any loss of tracking in any missiles, i don't know how large is the effect radius, and on top of that its cooldown is surprisingly long...

Then we got the Fractus, which is a Condor, with more guns (and drones), and that's pretty much all. I guess it can make an interesting front line ship for early game, like the Stratus. It's still pretty good to get wanzers on the field relatively early, as DA can't really fight without them.

For the cruisers, i found them to be quite expensive. The Gust is a more expensive Heron that trade its second launch bay for the built in HTPC. It's still very fragile, and the limited range on the HTPC force it to get closer to the frontline, which lower further its life expectancy. I personally traded my Gusts for bigger ships later in the game, as Diable doesn't need to resupply their wanzers as much as other factions do, and every of their capital ships also provide launch bays.

The Haze is an interesting one, but still pretty damn expensive, more than a Dominator. It's the epitome of the glass cannon, it dies incredibly easily but can dish out a lot of damage, which is interesting because DA fleets usually needs something to do the killing while the wanzers are keeping the enemy fleet busy. It's a good, if risky, flagship that allow no piloting mistakes. I'm not very comfortable putting it in the hands of the AI though, even if it can be built as a pretty good long range missile platform.

I was a bit disappointed by the capital ships, mostly expensive and not that amazing. The Storm is good because it bring a surprisingly cheap way for wanzers to stay in battle with its 4 launch bays. I found it could be built in a decent broadside ship. It's not a Conquest though, and it doesn't like staying on the frontline too long. While the Storm by itself is good, fielding more than one (or two) tends to be a waste.

Its bigger brother, the Malestorm, is more or less the same. But while the Storm is closer to the Astral, the Maelstrom is more an Odyssey-like. It may be called a battleship, but its role is definitely battlecruiser. It can't brawl with the other factions big ones, which is the role i would have liked it to fill. It's also really expensive, at 50 deployment points, you can get a Paragon to wreck some faces. The Maelstorm was my backbone ship, even though i wasn't supremely satisfied with it. It's clearly more survivable than the DA cruisers, and the single launch bay is always a bonus with so many wanzers. But alas, really expensive, hard to field.

The only proper battleship of the faction is the Pandemonium, which is even more expensive. Like most of DA ships, it's very fragile and vulnerable to flanking. But unlike its two smaller capital siblings, the Pandemonium can at least bring a pretty good amount of firepower in the battle. I feel Diable always have trouble when it comes to dealing with enemies battleships, they don't have a dedicated bomber (the closest one being the Raven) and few reliable damage dealer (the Haze is supposed to fill this role, but tends to die when facing bigger ships). The Pandy is the only alternative i see when it comes to drill a hole in a tougher target, but at a pretty extreme cost unfortunately.

For the wanzers, i'm still a bit confused about their roles, as they uses weapons that don't appear in the codex and can only be guessed from their performance in battle. The Frost seems to be the Talon-like, which is supposed to intercept missiles and fighters. The Warlust looks like a Broadsword-like, an all around fighter. The Strife is a Warthog-like (the SS+ one). The Valiant is definitely a Xyphos-like, and finally the Raven is... Erh, a mix between the Piranha and the Gladius?

Not much more to say. To be honest i haven't seen any big balance issues. They may sound a bit on the weak side in my feedback, but i also played with the ExtraSystem mod that increase the strength of the enemy ships by an uncertain amount, which may have skewed the whole thing a bit.

Still, the faction is pretty good, if quite difficult to play at some times. I'm just a bit sad that the Pandemonium and Maelstrom are that expensive to field, but it's still possible that i missed something about them that would justify that high cost.
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Ahne

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2016, 01:57:11 PM »

Great infos about your playthrough Helmut, i like that kind of feedback. How do you place DA between other mods in terms of overall strenght?
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HELMUT

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2016, 02:22:22 PM »

Hard to say, given that ExtraSystem changed the campaign and i'm not sure by how much. Also i haven't played some factions in a very long time and they probably changed quite a bit since then.

Overall, i'd say Diable Avionics is around the low/middle part of the "power ladder". Lower than factions like Blackrock, Imperium and Shadowyard but higher than Junk Pirates, PBC and Mayorate. They have okay early game, very good mid game with their wanzers, but not great during late game where high level battleships are common. That's how i feel it.
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FlashFrozen

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2016, 04:28:55 PM »

Hard to say, given that ExtraSystem changed the campaign and i'm not sure by how much. Also i haven't played some factions in a very long time and they probably changed quite a bit since then.

Overall, i'd say Diable Avionics is around the low/middle part of the "power ladder". Lower than factions like Blackrock, Imperium and Shadowyard but higher than Junk Pirates, PBC and Mayorate. They have okay early game, very good mid game with their wanzers, but not great during late game where high level battleships are common. That's how i feel it.

Another small issue to the maelstrom is how far back the main large turret is, seriously cuts off some of the range on weapons while taking hits on the nose of the ship.

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Ahne

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #125 on: January 21, 2016, 04:56:25 PM »

Interesting, would like to see more such faction analysis stuff.
I have to say i like DA even that thay lack some endgame power, not every faction needs to be a powerhouse at endgame.
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DrakonST

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #126 on: January 21, 2016, 08:03:29 PM »

Interesting, would like to see more such faction analysis stuff.
I have to say i like DA even that thay lack some endgame power, not every faction needs to be a powerhouse at endgame.
I could write a similar review of your fraction. But I am afraid it it won't be possible to read because of my bad English.
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I a Russian. And i communicate with the help of Promt Translate. And I am a color-blind person.

Taverius

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #127 on: January 22, 2016, 10:49:33 AM »

Hard to say, given that ExtraSystem changed the campaign and i'm not sure by how much. Also i haven't played some factions in a very long time and they probably changed quite a bit since then.

Overall, i'd say Diable Avionics is around the low/middle part of the "power ladder". Lower than factions like Blackrock, Imperium and Shadowyard but higher than Junk Pirates, PBC and Mayorate. They have okay early game, very good mid game with their wanzers, but not great during late game where high level battleships are common. That's how i feel it.

Another small issue to the maelstrom is how far back the main large turret is, seriously cuts off some of the range on weapons while taking hits on the nose of the ship.
I kind of like it - it forces you to make use of the Flicker Core - but at the same time it kind of limits you to the Siege lazor if you're going to hand it to the AI. That's why I mentioned a 1000-1200 large recson would be handy, you could pair it with 3 medium HMGs and have the AI be competent.

They may sound a bit on the weak side in my feedback, but i also played with the ExtraSystem mod that increase the strength of the enemy ships by an uncertain amount, which may have skewed the whole thing a bit.
Not really - I agree with you basically 100%, and I played my game without extrasystem.

The glass cannon ships are good as flagships but suicidal in the AI's hands, there's no frigate that can handle the mid-game, and the AI-friendly ships are too expensive to field for their power.

You do feel the lack of bomber but I think that's also fine - I'm just not sure what the point of the RAVEN is right now, they need so much light wanzer screen themselves (they're not that tough) I'd rather bring another Valiant wing.

One other thing I've noticed since my initial feedback is that the lack of a medium PD that's capable against missiles really hurts the faction. The RAPTOR can't compete with a single flak, let alone a dual flak, but its the only medium pd option. Its about as effective as a dual hmg against against fighters, which is nice, but anti-fighter fire is not an issue for a DA fleet anyway, what with the clouds of wanzers.

Still, regardless of the fact that the ships are individually weak, I found it a very fun faction to fly - unlike say, SCY, which flat doesn't click with me at all.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 01:47:04 PM by Taverius »
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #128 on: January 23, 2016, 12:59:35 AM »

Still, regardless of the fact that the ships are individually weak, I found it a very fun faction to fly - unlike say, SCY, which flat doesn't click with me at all.
Ouch that burn! ><
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Taverius

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #129 on: January 23, 2016, 08:50:18 AM »

Nah, not meant to be a burn - just that SCY is also a polished faction with individually weak ships, but it just doesn't click with me and I can't use it as a player faction. I thought it was because of faction traits, DA proved me wrong.

That's not an issue though - I'm the same with Imperium, Citadel and others, can't play them at all - and I'm not so arrogant as to think my inability to give feedback on those factions is important :D
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #130 on: January 23, 2016, 09:03:18 AM »

Don't worry, I perfectly understood how you meant it and I didn't took it as an attack! And I can perfectly understand how they can be not appealing to everyone.

On the topic of that feedback (thanks Helmut btw) I reduced a lot the cost of the cruisers and capitals, very slightly increased some armor ratings and shield coverage, and I'm looking into adding a couple of small mounts to the front of the Maelstrom/Pandemonium to help with PD. I also asked FlashFrozen about a bomber Wanzer that would close that last hole in their combat doctrine.

I'm also looking to change slightly the Hexafire: the random extra damage is too consistent to make a visible difference and I'm thinking about removing it while buffing the normal damage. I'll have to check with FlashFrozen if it's okay with him though.
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BuckCake

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #131 on: January 23, 2016, 09:58:56 AM »

DA gets bogged down by virtue of being fighter-centric. Maybe buffing the wanzers slightly while reducing their cost would make the faction more "competitive".
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HELMUT

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #132 on: January 23, 2016, 10:04:40 AM »

DA's wanzers are already among the best fighters you can get, including modded factions. Their cost is what keep them from being blatantly overpowered compared to other fighters.

Alas, if we want carrier fleets to be competitive during late game, it's something that only Alex can fix.
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Tartiflette

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #133 on: January 23, 2016, 12:38:16 PM »

DA's wanzers are already among the best fighters you can get, including modded factions. Their cost is what keep them from being blatantly overpowered compared to other fighters.

Alas, if we want carrier fleets to be competitive during late game, it's something that only Alex can fix.
In my playthroughs with Diable, I found the late game with fighters was incredibly easy except against some IBB high level targets... It was a very expensive fleet to run yes, but since I mostly had fighters I never actually lost a ship. I think during the last one I ended up with a Maelstrom, a Storm, a few Gusts, a Haze and many many wings of Wanzers (mostly Valiants with a pair of Ravens and some lighter cover). A lot of load-outs were missile oriented: under the cover of the wanzers and micro-missiles, torpedoes were murderous. And the Haze was covered with Glaux and Burchels: it insta-killed anything once the armor was scratched.

I really don't understand how people can say fighters are under-powered... Twenty wings with a good balance between types is not only ultra safe, but it will blast anything to oblivion. You do need a lot of carriers though, otherwise once the first wave is gone they will get stretched thin between those rearming and the new fighters being slowly produced. If anything I find them OP because they can't be killed. (hence my suggestion some time ago)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 03:44:15 PM by Tartiflette »
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HELMUT

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Re: [0.7.1a] Diable Avionics 1.4 - More stuff! (09/01/2016)
« Reply #134 on: January 23, 2016, 01:10:23 PM »

When i say late game, it's when i finally meet those high-end IBB fleets or start messing with Templars's crusades. That's when carrier fleets are struggling. Having 20/30 fighters, even DA ones, doesn't mean much when the enemy outnumber you with bigger ships.

That's why i hope Alex will eventually revert to the old fleet points system or try Tart's suggestion.
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