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61

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 21, 2021, 10:02:44 AM »

But what these options are supposed to be? Kiting?

Somewhat overpowered or unfair monsters that kill things.  Imagine SNK boss made playable, and somewhat overpowered even after getting nerfed, like Akuma as a hidden character in few old Capcom fighting games (SSF2 Turbo and X-Men).

And continuing from my last post, not just as a playable flagship with Auto Ships and Neural Link, but under AI control too with merely Auto Ships.  Even Radiant in the current release as a 40 DP AI ship on your side is a monster (good when giving up 3rd s-mod for not going for Tech 10).  Unless Alex adds behavior options for AI, they will not kite until they start losing the flux war.

I'd like to imagine but I've never played Capcom fighting games.

62

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 21, 2021, 09:34:15 AM »

But what these options are supposed to be? Kiting?

63

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 21, 2021, 08:48:58 AM »

In the upcoming version there will be so much missiles that they will blot out the stars.

64

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 21, 2021, 07:49:47 AM »

I'd suggest doing something actually interesting. Like making Guardian into a true berserk. What is refusing to die in several cycles of reactivations. And shield disintegrator weapon. I mean we already have offensive stats blob in the form of Radiant and defensive one in the form of Paragon. So you can hardly make something new and fresh by changing stats and mounts. While Omega introduced very cool and weapon boss mechanics they are clrearly outworldish, hypertech exotics. As they should be.

But...

Why not have something more lowtechish? More feral.

65

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 20, 2021, 04:08:46 PM »

Weird, I only got 3 larges last run defeating both hypershunts and the bounty.
Large weapons are not even guaranteed drop. It’s already quite hard to get two or more cascade emitter even with 4 drops. (6/16 chance assuming Tessaract variants has equal chance spawning each large weapon). 1 to 2 each has to be modded.

I'm using loot from actual campaigns.

66

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 20, 2021, 08:56:05 AM »

It is generating hard flux, yes, but have you checked how pathetic it is if only one rift it generated?
Rift cascade beam is a CQC weapon in first place.
Also, are you using console command or some other mods to summon all the desired omega weapons or what?
I don’t think a “standard” fit should be using omega weapons in first place. They are good to have and some are OP, meanwhile they are not guaranteed to be obtained especially large ones.
You may theory craft anything of course but that’s just unrealistic.

You are also missing solar shielding, hardened shield and the shield modulation in your formula. If you were to fight remnants it’s common sense to use solar shielding. You also did not take combat readiness induced increased shield efficiency into account.
On top of that, the missile spams and the short time your shield off after teleport has high chance getting weapons shut down by either sabot emp or hammer torp brute force damage. It’s bold to assume you may have full damage when you’re in range.

Just to make sure, we’re talking about player radiant efficiency versus player guardian efficiency. A guardian with autoforge can mop up an entire ordo. Can a lone radiant do that? Radiant is going to be 60 DP next patch, so if radiant can’t do that we’re looking at at least Ziggurat or more DP cost to be “balanced” for a “vanilla” guardian.

Taking into account the difference between Paragon and Guardian flux capabilities it is not so pathetic.

No. On average, you are supposed to get 1-2 each Large ones, several Mediums and scores of Smalls. And I'm not suggesting something like Penta RTLs.

You can fit your ships as you like. I fit my as I like.

I've missed most modules, skills, fleet compositions and such. That's irrelevant. Opponent will be RNGed anyway.

It is rather unlikely that recoverable Guardian will keep its Autoforge unless someone will start rooting for it.

67

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 20, 2021, 07:09:49 AM »

Rift cascade only generate one rift at max range. It requires 200 range for every additional rift and it only deal as much hard flux as autopulse at autopulse range.

Phase skimmer has only 300 base range and 450 at SE.
Spamming all 4 gives 1800 range and it takes 6.66 seconds to recharge each charge.

On the other hand, plasma jets has 80 average speed increment over 6 seconds time span and 3.33 seconds cooldown, not that far off. Helmsman could help with this (increased acceleration).
Phase skimmer has more burst potential but is roughly on par with plasma jets in extensive use. Not to mention phase skimmer forces shield down.

Guardian has a 25k flux pool, same as Radiant, not sure what you're gonna use to insta delete Guardian.
Guardian without autoforge is literally the low tech version of Radiant (identical hull, identical flux cap, 5 larges)

It is generating hard flux at the same range as TL.

It is less. So it is possible for Radiant to catch up.

Guradian 25K flux, shield efficiency 1. Effective shielding is 25K.
Radiant 25K flux, shield efficiency 0,6. Effective shielding is 41K.

Dual VPDrivers w. EM deal 27K damage to shields. You can add to that:

About 10K energy damage from AMBs and RTL.
16K HE damage from dual Cyclones.
8K KE damage from quad sabots.

In a single click.

With a wide possibilities to adjust any of the above.

68

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 20, 2021, 06:39:23 AM »

And without mobility system it is just another 40 speed capital.

What does that matter? It's not as if you can not take the system. It's enough that Guardian can live where Conquest dies overwhelmed, unable to kite Remnants.

That's my point. It is good for kiting. If you want to simply start deleting ships as fast as possible and as I always obsessed with, it becomes irrelevant. In my eyes super battleship optimized for running from the threat is not super. The threat is.

69

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 19, 2021, 09:59:39 PM »

I just took Guardian for a spin and it isn't inconcievable that it could solo an ordo on its own (eventually), but it's nowhere as easy as it was with Doom.

This is what to be expected. With current skill/officer distribution system ship's capabilities defined mostly by the basic hull stats. Such as flux and speed. Guardian have rather mediocre (for a supposedly "super" ship) effective shielding and dissipation. Mobility is above average but after single use of PJ you gain less distance than Radiant gets out of all its teleport charges. And without mobility system it is just another 40 speed capital. This is even worse than Conquest kiting the Paragon scenario when the certain battlecruiser is enjoying speed advantage even without use of its mobility system. Although fight is still taking too long.

Guardian can use ballistic and it makes the entire world of difference.
Paragon is stuck in energy large which means it either can fit lances to outrange everyone but can only use two HVD to deal hard flux damage, or use autopulse and get outranged by even onslaught.
However, guardian has enough flux to support two Mjolnir, which means it has the best long range hard flux dps in the entire game even without missile autoforge. If desired, it can theoretically support two gauss with dedicated fit. What does that mean? With an officer in .95.1 it may outrange an autopulse high tech station. Absolute bonkers.

Or you can put Rift Cascade Emitters on the Paragon and start dealing hard flux damage in the same range as TacLances.

On the other hand, we have Radiant what can simply jump through 2k range and delete any given target, Guardian included, in a matter of seconds with the sole exception of: a) Phase ships, b) Paragon, c) Monitor and d) multisegmented station in the sense that its modules are on the different sides at any given time.

Also we have one certain phase super ship what can do the same and there is only one ship what can do something about it and it is not Guardian.

70

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 19, 2021, 05:10:30 PM »

I just took Guardian for a spin and it isn't inconcievable that it could solo an ordo on its own (eventually), but it's nowhere as easy as it was with Doom.

This is what to be expected. With current skill/officer distribution system ship's capabilities defined mostly by the basic hull stats. Such as flux and speed. Guardian have rather mediocre (for a supposedly "super" ship) effective shielding and dissipation. Mobility is above average but after single use of PJ you gain less distance than Radiant gets out of all its teleport charges. And without mobility system it is just another 40 speed capital. This is even worse than Conquest kiting the Paragon scenario when the certain battlecruiser is enjoying speed advantage even without use of its mobility system. Although fight is still taking too long.

71

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 19, 2021, 04:48:03 PM »

I like the idea of getting the Guardian, as long as the missile recovery special is removed of course

Ah yes, just gut the very thing that makes it interesting and unique.

Well, this is considering that Guardian will be left completely unchanged after removal of its Unlimited Missile Works.

However there is a possibility that it will be turned into a more menacing something. Worthy of being called monstrous.

72

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 18, 2021, 01:55:30 AM »

Player-piloted Guardian is pretty much impossible to kill, even if it lost unlimited missiles. High fire-power + ATC + system-granted speed means it can kite whole fleets to death with ease.

Frankly, I don't like the way it exists currently - teasing the player with an inaccessible eye-candy of this quality is just cruel. AI doesn't make use of ship's properties anyway, so there is no need for Guardian to be what it is as an AI-controlled boss.

Kiting as with Gausses at max range? It will take forever to kite Ordo.

73

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 18, 2021, 01:53:16 AM »

Your argument was:

They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.

Player fitted Onslaught can beat them too. So what?

I don't think you understand how ridiculous it is to have 1.5k flux free kinetic DPS plus 3k flux free HE DPS (missile spec hammer barrage + small sabot with rack)

Missiles. Have anything more to say on the matter?

I think, your problem is then the lack of reading comprehension.
Did I mention a word about it's "maximum" DPS or "total" DPS?
Or do you not agree that the fabric of the battle is flux war?

If you didn't write something there is no way for me to read it. So we are discussing things that you actually have written. No comprehension problems on my side.

Despite you mentioning the 10 second recharge it's totally not an excuse to state

It is a perfect excuse in our case.

Trading two pods for triples result in even less remarkable loadout.

As a matter of fact, small sabot racks provide both better DPS and better burst damage on a Guardian, hands down, there is no dispute.
The only explanation you could've said that is you have never tested it.

Oh and how adorable is your fit, using obviously OP weapon namely cryoblaster. Mind using something more standard?
I was honestly expecting a SO fit. Your current fit can only YOLO and not even guaranteed to alpha overload a radiant.
Not sure what your officer skills and personality, but putting these up in AI wars the auroras got slaughtered by either of the variant. They are just sand bags after the initial sabots failed to overload the radiant and the rest is history.

Triples have lower strike capabilities. 2 missiles against 4 with the pods. And, honestly, since both options were mentioned, what is your point?

I like that your like my fit. It is for the player not for AI.

74

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 17, 2021, 10:05:58 PM »

I mean you're basically trolling or trying to justify making Guardian a player usable ship atm.

If someone is not agreeing with you it doesn't mean that you are being trolled. It means that other person have different opinion and there is also a possibility that yours is wrong.

And two sabot pods is a very... unremarkable number for a capital ship. Trading two pods for triples result in even less remarkable loadout.

A proof of you totally don't understand the reloading being the OP part. It's not just a random capital but a behemoth that can reload ALL missiles in 10 seconds.

The 10 seconds part is mentioned right after that.

36k shield damage before reload is about an average Brilliant flux capacity. Per 10 seconds. Capital destroying single cruiser per 10 seconds is, again, nothing remarkable. 4k shield damage per click is a mediocre figure even on the frigate scale.

I mean, lmao, are you using a guardian with ONLY two sabot racks? What are you even doing math upon?
For it's 1000 + easily another 500 vent it can mount another two storm needler without sweating and on top of that, two hammer barrages packing a little more than "merely" 2k HE DPS with no skills, and 1.5x that with missile spec.

You literally can't put more than two small sabots onto Guardian. This is why I have to do math with only that. And guns are not affected by its missile forge subsystem in any way neither they have flux-free DPS. Dual Hammer barrage can be fitted on the Radiant. Together with quad sabot pods.

4k shield damage per click is a mediocre figure even on the frigate scale.

I don't even want to judge this one as it simply proves you don't know how to fit a ship for AI.

Or I do know.

This "once" means that there will be one Radiant (or Guardian for that matter) less. And there is no problem with deploying 30 DP Aurora against either Radiant or Guardian. Each one. Even 40 DP as currently is.

Yes, please, solo a radiant with just an aurora. If you have wasted all that OP on sabots I doubt how you can break it's armor, not to mention hull.

Practically speaking, Guardian's "to last" is just a cool euphemism to hide that its limited burst makes it strong only against enemies what are tier or two below it. It is understandable given its task of repelling exploration/salvaging fleets. However it is a downside compared to the true machines of war. Made not to last but to get the job done.

Limited burst ... lol ... limited ...
Practically speaking you're using an entire ship's worth of ordnance in comparison of just two racks of Guardian not to mention it has the plasma burn system to catch up with even frigates, and the advanced targeting computer to shred things at range. It has second to onslaught armor and formidable hull as well. Even without infinite missile, these figures would easily make it at 60+ DP since it's effectively a low tech version of radiant.

All those infinite missiles afterwards mean nothing when you don't have enough at the right moment. Flux regeneration is also infinite you know.

Your argument was:

They are more broken then you could ever imagine.
I'd rate them at 100 DP no less, as one with proper fit can beat 2 stock onslaught head on with autopilot and no officer.

Player fitted Onslaught can beat them too. So what?

I don't think you understand how ridiculous it is to have 1.5k flux free kinetic DPS plus 3k flux free HE DPS (missile spec hammer barrage + small sabot with rack)

Missiles. Have anything more to say on the matter?

Make some effort to actually read it.

Make some effort to actually try it in game.

I did.

75

Suggestions / Re: Make Guardian recoverable

« on: July 17, 2021, 06:13:13 PM »

All smalls are hybrids. No sabots, sorry. You only have two mediums for them.

And that's where you put your sabot racks in. They shoot way faster than pods and it's irrelevant that you will be out of ammo in a second or two, because in another second or two it will be all regenerated.

They are mentioned right after that. And reload takes 10 seconds.

Are you simply unaware of the missile spec + rack pushing the stock of one small sabot to 9 missiles (which reloads per 10 second)?
That's translates to 1800 kinetic DPS if you just leave them auto fire to the oblivion, or bind them linked to your other mounts to force fire.
The point is, they never run out thanks to the magic hullmod, providing ridiculous flux free damage.

Burst wise it is way more than the Guardian (4x9+2x4=44 missiles in 4.5 sec against 2x9=18 in the same amount of time). Strike wise it is 8 missiles in a single volley.

I'm not entirely sure what you even mean by "burst". Aurora can do this only once and use up all it's small sabot while guardian is allowed to keep this DPS until running out of PPT.
Guardian is not made to burst, but made to last. If you have ever tried it even just in variant editor you would have known how stupidly good it is given you don't suck at fitting a ship.

I do aware. It is clear from what I wrote. Make some effort to actually read it.

Burst = amount of damage in a short amount of time.
Strike = simultaneous damage.

This "once" means that there will be one Radiant (or Guardian for that matter) less. And there is no problem with deploying 30 DP Aurora against either Radiant or Guardian. Each one. Even 40 DP as currently is.

In turn, same goes for Radiant and Onslaught while they provide 24 sabots in 10 seconds against Guardian's 18.

Practically speaking, Guardian's "to last" is just a cool euphemism to hide that its limited burst makes it strong only against enemies what are tier or two below it. It is understandable given its task of repelling exploration/salvaging fleets. However it is a downside compared to the true machines of war. Made not to last but to get the job done.