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Messages - Lucky33

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31
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 14, 2020, 08:37:02 AM »
The question was about fast ships going around a defending fleet. Do you see the fleet of the fast ships in the back of defending fleet or did you not?
Irrelevant and proves nothing. Yes, faster fleets can maneuver around slower fleets. That does nothing to support your assertions that 1: Logistics ships would be in a vulnerable/uncovered position relative to their fleet's combat ships, or 2: that those faster ships could successfuly cut-off or isolate those logistics ships, and in doing so have enough time to accomplish anything before those combat ships could respond.
Further, it does nothing to address the fact that in the time it takes for the faster, attacking fleet to close, the defending/slower fleet can easily reorient its self to face the incoming threat, once again putting those combat ships between the attackers and the defenders' logistics ships.

I fail to see how players could be told "This weaker but faster enemy force has magically outmaneuvered your own; your logistics ships are isolated and under attack" in a way that's either satisfactory and/or allows for any agency on the player's part.

To remind you the history of the question. Inability of the fast ships to go around the slow ones was presented to me as a major argument. Before it was disproved it seemed pretty relevant and you didnt say a word against it.

But at least you dont attempt to deny reality. Good.

If you look at how ships in the bubble are moving you will notice that they always look alongside the course while their trajectory being a wavy line so what all ships shuffle their positions with time.

That means the possibility of any logistics ships to found themselves in a position closest to the border of the bubble.

And this is where the fast ships are supposed to attack.

Since they actually can go around the defending fleet, they also fully capable of picking exactly that location.

While defender can do nothing about that because all its ships are stuck on the single course. Ordering one group of ships to change it means detaching them from the main fleet.

And that's impossible. Sad also.

32
General Discussion / Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
« on: February 14, 2020, 03:40:31 AM »
Just a reminder.

Reaper has 500 hp.
Hammer and Hurricane 350 hp.
Atropos and Squall 300 hp.

Basic PD is mostly useless against massed missile attacks. Skills and IPDAI are a must have.
 

33
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 14, 2020, 03:14:20 AM »
Also I'd like to suggest to move the whole Tsushima thing to the "Discussions".

34
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 14, 2020, 03:11:33 AM »
I edited my earlier comment to show why your example from the Battle of Tsushima was irrelevant.

What if I click on the enemy ships? suddenly my battlegroup is bearing down on the enemy. E-Burn? I still stay facing towards them. They cannot get behind me. While in interstellar space, all ships in starsector turn at the same speed.

You can't get behind a player. All they need is to click on you, and viola, they have their battleline on you.

You clearly dont even know what Battle of Tsushima is.

That fleet in the picture did have all the options without any real downsides. Like me luring it into the nebula or into the Remnant patrol. Or both. And I dont need to get behind a player since there is no multiplayer in the game.
And therin we see the issue with your ambush mechanic. There arent any real downsides. Besides which, the logic is, any competent commander, (ie an ai that know whats it's doing) will turn and fight rather than let you into whatever line you've hit.
You seem to want this feature so you can abuse the AI with it.

The battle of Tsushima, Admiral Togo v. Rozhestvensky?
27 May 1905?
the "dying echo of an old era"?

There are real downsides. Because you are on the clock. It is not that the rest of the fleet is cut off for the whole battle. Its only delayed according to ship's speed.

Yes. 1905. Not the "First World War example" when both sides (Russia and Japan) were allied and it was 1914-1918. And none of the:

"the cruisers didn't have the detection range available our fleets. At the same time, what they fought would be described as a standard pursuit battle in starsector. None of that Cruisers running to save the logistics ***. The fleet was arrayed properly and struck in a nighttime assault impossible in space, by 58 vessels, 21 of them destroyers. They faced off against the Russian battleships escorted by cruisers. There was no scramble to get to the logistics ships. There was no fast gun battle- the attackers pretty much shoved torpedoes at the Russians until they ran away."

Has anything to do with the battle in question. Actually, I have no idea that you are describing. I mean I've read all the post-battle reports from both sides but there is nothing of this in them.

Ah. WW1 era tech plateau was what i was mentioning. Doesn't really change anything about fleet doctrine, tactics, detection radii, etc. Really just smaller ships with smaller guns. My bad, really meant to say technology level.
Give me your documents.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/battle-tsushima-when-japan-russias-most-fearsome-battleships-20896
https://www.mhistory.net/battle-of-tsushima-the-birth-of-japans-naval-power/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tsushima
https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Tsushima
+general lectures and ***.

WWI era is the change from dreadnought line-of-battle fleet to the taskforce one of the WWII. Both have nothing to do with the Russo-Japanese War realities defined by the ironclads struggling to implement basics of the long range gunfire. So neither WW1 era is a tech plateau, nor it is the same thing as previous era in question. Needles to say that all of it has nothing to do with the supposed but completely innacurate description of the Tsushima Battle.

Here you go:

https://dlib.rsl.ru/viewer/01005079693#?page=1

https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/meta/imageen_C05110085200?IS_KEY_S1=C05110085200&IS_KIND=detail&IS_STYLE=eng&IS_TAG_S1=InfoSDU&

You have not? I am not sure what you think that image you linked shows but it does not show a fleet of frigates with the enemy logistics between it and the enemy battleships.

Do you see how the lack of a “fleet order” means that logistics ships cant be “last”?

That image shows that fast ships can simply go around a defending fleet. Before that it was stated that they can not.

Not the "last" but "vulnerable to attack from outside".

No it doesn't. It shows you attacking cruisers and battleships... If you "go around to not hit cruisers and battleships" but hit cruisers and battleships it stands to reason that you did not.

The question was about fast ships going around a defending fleet. Do you see the fleet of the fast ships in the back of defending fleet or did you not?

35
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 13, 2020, 10:25:00 PM »
I edited my earlier comment to show why your example from the Battle of Tsushima was irrelevant.

What if I click on the enemy ships? suddenly my battlegroup is bearing down on the enemy. E-Burn? I still stay facing towards them. They cannot get behind me. While in interstellar space, all ships in starsector turn at the same speed.

You can't get behind a player. All they need is to click on you, and viola, they have their battleline on you.

You clearly dont even know what Battle of Tsushima is.

That fleet in the picture did have all the options without any real downsides. Like me luring it into the nebula or into the Remnant patrol. Or both. And I dont need to get behind a player since there is no multiplayer in the game.
And therin we see the issue with your ambush mechanic. There arent any real downsides. Besides which, the logic is, any competent commander, (ie an ai that know whats it's doing) will turn and fight rather than let you into whatever line you've hit.
You seem to want this feature so you can abuse the AI with it.

The battle of Tsushima, Admiral Togo v. Rozhestvensky?
27 May 1905?
the "dying echo of an old era"?

There are real downsides. Because you are on the clock. It is not that the rest of the fleet is cut off for the whole battle. Its only delayed according to ship's speed.

Yes. 1905. Not the "First World War example" when both sides (Russia and Japan) were allied and it was 1914-1918. And none of the:

"the cruisers didn't have the detection range available our fleets. At the same time, what they fought would be described as a standard pursuit battle in starsector. None of that Cruisers running to save the logistics ***. The fleet was arrayed properly and struck in a nighttime assault impossible in space, by 58 vessels, 21 of them destroyers. They faced off against the Russian battleships escorted by cruisers. There was no scramble to get to the logistics ships. There was no fast gun battle- the attackers pretty much shoved torpedoes at the Russians until they ran away."

Has anything to do with the battle in question. Actually, I have no idea that you are describing. I mean I've read all the post-battle reports from both sides but there is nothing of this in them.

36
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 13, 2020, 09:57:04 PM »
I edited my earlier comment to show why your example from the Battle of Tsushima was irrelevant.

What if I click on the enemy ships? suddenly my battlegroup is bearing down on the enemy. E-Burn? I still stay facing towards them. They cannot get behind me. While in interstellar space, all ships in starsector turn at the same speed.

You can't get behind a player. All they need is to click on you, and viola, they have their battleline on you.

You clearly dont even know what Battle of Tsushima is.

That fleet in the picture did have all the options without any real downsides. Like me luring it into the nebula or into the Remnant patrol. Or both. And I dont need to get behind a player since there is no multiplayer in the game.


37
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 13, 2020, 09:39:58 PM »
So looking at that image you shared Lucky33, you think that you can explain the ambush mechanic by simply catching a fleet on the opposite direction of which they are facing, yet you fail to see that the warships are alternating between the front and the back of the bubble, meaning that you can't catch the logistics without encountering the other warships (if they even existed in that fleet you have shown. Good job you didn't even give a good example).

Anyways that whole argument about trying to explain how the ambush even happens is pointless and I feel that you're using it to deviate from the real issue here :

This whole mechanic is superfluous at best, detrimental at worst. It turns frigates into an obligation otherwise the player gets punished hard for daring to not use any of them by destroying all of his cargo and fuel ships. None of the AI fleets except for traders or merchant convoys require these logistic vessels to function, yet they are vital for the player. Infact bounties don't even use cargo ships.
And besides there is no worthwhile rewards from ambushing a fleet except for convoys (but those aren't dedicated combat fleets) they don't carry valuable commodities, the only reward a player gets from destroying such fleets is the supplies, fuel and salvaged ships and most of these rewards come from the main force, not what little logistic vessels they have.
And finally it discourages the player from using frigates in any normal battle since he won't be able to afford losing them as it leaves him vulnerable to ambushes.

That image serves a single purpose. To prove that it is possible for the fast ships to go around a defending fleet.

This whole mechanics rises the risks for the players who ignore the threat of the small fleets. There is no direct punishment involved. Only the possibilities. You may or may not meet the ambush. You may or may not lose your logistics ships. You may or may not suffer from the resulting lack of fuel or supplies. For some unknown reason you stipulate these as a guaranteed outcomes. Why do you need that?


You have not? I am not sure what you think that image you linked shows but it does not show a fleet of frigates with the enemy logistics between it and the enemy battleships.

Do you see how the lack of a “fleet order” means that logistics ships cant be “last”?

That image shows that fast ships can simply go around a defending fleet. Before that it was stated that they can not.

Not the "last" but "vulnerable to attack from outside".

They can go around. In your image, you were facing off with a duo of cruisers in the rear line. You legit went around and hit a cruiser formation.
This is "flanking the fleet" to you. You have gone behind the fleet only to run into the rear guard. Your ambush strikes, hard and fast, only to break against the rock that is two cruisers.

You made no such flank, that picture is a brilliant example of covering your own logistics- You want to pull from the game? If I was commanding that fleet, I could click on your fleet and turn around, since any smart commander will have noticed your lurking sensor blip on their scopes, even if your flanking fleet was frigates.

Your argument that I cannot affect my own fleet layout is valid but irrelevant. While I cannot directly affect my own fleet posture, all one has to do is look at the fleet in the campaign screen and notice that they have, all of their own volition, formed a mutually defensive sphere. All of my tactics and maneuver explanation was simply to tell you how easily a fleet could enter the standard engagement instead of your "ambush". 

Good. I didnt bother to face anything but the back of the fleet. Because you stated that it is not possible. If needed I can pick any other direction and force the enemy fleet to randomly shuffle its ships. This all together shows clearly that the attacker is in control of the situation while defender is not. And this is why the attacker can have the ambush option.

38
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 13, 2020, 08:49:29 PM »
You have not? I am not sure what you think that image you linked shows but it does not show a fleet of frigates with the enemy logistics between it and the enemy battleships.

Do you see how the lack of a “fleet order” means that logistics ships cant be “last”?

That image shows that fast ships can simply go around a defending fleet. Before that it was stated that they can not.

Not the "last" but "vulnerable to attack from outside".

39
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 13, 2020, 08:17:51 PM »
I have provided the proof that it is not the case and the opposite is true.

Do you revoke your argument or not?
I do revoke. You have provided no proof of anything.

Quote
Is the important part of the aforementioned argument when in addition I have to mention that the said fact do not exist because player is unable to change the travelling formation to the specific order.

What? Can you rephrase because this is almost gibberish. I am having trouble following you.

There is no “order” or “traveling formation” to change it to. These things do not exist. Edit: as a result there is also nothing to exploit

I have provided the proof that one can simply go around a defending fleet with fast ships.

One cant intertwine logistics ships with combat ships. As you said it yourself: "there is no “order” or “traveling formation” to change it to". This is it. Do logistics ships and combat ships intertwine or not is not up to the player to decide. And this is the fact that can be exploited.

40
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 13, 2020, 08:08:23 PM »
What part of this:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=17886.msg281581#msg281581

You cant understand?

All of that? When its a simple denial. And have nothing to do with understanding.

Yes. All of that. Cruisers are usually faster and more maneuverable than logistics ships and so can easily intercept a fleet in their rear. Battleships that are flying behind logistics ships are already between logistics ships and the ambusher and so can easily intercept fleets in their rear. If not because they're already there but because the logistics ships can maneuver to keep the battleships between them and the enemy force.

When fleets meet what happens is that the combat ships fly forward and the logistics ships stay behind. So if you wanted to ambush a fleet such that their logistics ships were at risk one of the forces would have to fly forward their combat ships into nothing while you attacked their logistics. As a result of this it lacks verisimilitude.

Cruiser or any other ships cant leave the bubble or maneuver freely inside it. While other fleet actually have the freedom of maneuver. If you would be able to detach ships from your fleet this whole topic wouldnt exist in the first place. It is all about finding ways around this fundamental in-game restriction.

If you are in search of verisimilitude when why wouldnt you just look into actual naval practice? 2nd and 3rd Pacific Squadrons of Imperial Russian Navy once attempted to break through Tsushima strait with its transport ships coming along. They did exactly as you have proposed. Put the battleships towards japanese ones and kept cruiser division outside the line of battle to intercept any attempts to get to the transports. It didnt go well. And I have already explained why it works that way.

See, you have to invent the third reality (not the game and not the real life) for your visions to be true.

41
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 13, 2020, 07:30:49 PM »
What part of this:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=17886.msg281581#msg281581

You cant understand?

All of that? When its a simple denial. And have nothing to do with understanding.

There. I understood what you were trying to say, I also understood the physics behind it. There are classes on this thing, and people take them.


There is no exaggeration. And no point to evade.

The point would be exactly the same if I said I had 30 ships in the formation. It's a metaphor for a bunch of the rage that will probably occur when you realize that the scrappy pirate crew you saw across the system still managed to sneak in between your death blob's escorts. It'll be even stupider if the game is modded.

120 destroyers is a false assumption. You are telling me that you need impossible number of ships to achieve something. Making it impossible in general.

Rage will be result of the wrong decision to escort the transports without frigates. Thats all. Typical destroyers do not have infinite weapons range or fast enough to catch the frigates. Do you want to make an accent on the borderline cases (the most advanced hi-tech destroyer against worst d-moded frigate)?

42
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 13, 2020, 07:12:26 PM »
Spoiler
One actually can go behind a larger fleet. Its not a theory, its a fact. You can run the game and check it for yourself.



Geometry has nothing to do with that. Problem of the larger fleet is called inertia. Coupled with lack of power it creates a situation when fleet is unable to turn at a rate required to cope with the smaller fleet maneuver while keeping itself as a single formation. It creates an opportunity for the smaller fleet to pick any place and vector for the attack.

While on travel drives the whole combat map is not enough to notice the change of course for any degree. For such a small scale ship is treated as incapable to maneuver. This is why they have to turn the travel drive off to enter combat.

Early warning is not even a factor here. Detected fleet can choose to change its course at any time. Specifically at the closest range when large fleet is fully commited to whatever defensive maneuver it chose previuosly. This is why, any attempt of the larger fleet to rotate in any direction will make things even worse since it will have to fight its own inertia to rotate in the opposite direction. By turning it just presents a better opportunity for the attacker. The larger the difference in sizes the worse things are for the larger fleet. There is no solution here apart from the defensive sphere formation.

Going behind a fleet is NOT the same as hitting the logistics ships. There is nothing stopping a fleet from putting ships behind the logistics vessels.

I spent most of that essay explaining exactly why going to the back of a fleet is not the same as ambushing them.

You don't seem to have an understanding of orbital mechanics. Newton's laws dictate that if a fleet of frigates decides to go speeding in, every second spent accelerating in the direction of the target means another second the attacker has to burn to change direction.

The defending fleet's velocity is relative to the attackers, There is no momentum change to face a new attack direction, simply have the vessels you want in the back accelerate (or stop accelerating) in the direction they want to go. Suddenly, they're in the back. I could make a video to show you exactly how that works.

Compare the speed of a frigate to the speed of a destroyer. In sustained burn, exactly the same. That already negates your little dodge idea, not that it would work.

There is no "sidestep" in space. Once the frigates have chosen a course and set themselves to it, they cannot just zip around an intercepting force. They must commit or build so much sideways velocity dodging around that they will have to set up another attack run. Even if they have the acceleration to do so, the intercepting fleet will be able to see the maneuver as it occurs, and dodge backwards, closer to the fleet and thus saving time as they don't need to go as far to resume the block. In this case, your vaunted inertia works against your frigates.

Now, why would a huge battlefleet even intercept? They have the ships to just keep going where their going and take the "ambushers" on the rearguard. Those exist. They put ships behind the aircraft carriers as well. Since that rearguard is most likely that captial ship's cruiser and destroyer escort, the ambushers would get smashed, because they have to engage in a stern chase, slowly closing ground, while the rearguard could just stop accelerating and metaphorically "hit the brakes" to end up in range. Flanking vessels could slow their acceleration a bit and fall into formation to spread out the guard and resume covering the rear.

Besides which, there is nothing stopping the defenders from making a wall in space. The frigates would have to overshoot or dodge around, then spend a ridiculous amount of time building up velocity to return to turn around and come to attack speed.

Newton is mean. He doesn't let your movie tactics work.
[close]

Earlier you stated that and I quote:

One cannot simply go around a defending fleet with fast ships due to the geometry (the defender only has to travel a short distance to intercept the attacker, while the attacker has to pick a direction and close)

I have provided the proof that it is not the case and the opposite is true.

Do you revoke your argument or not?

If you insist that:

and the simple fact that one can intertwine logistics ships with combat ships- think "vulnerable" aircraft carriers sitting in a single formation with their escorts- a patrol boat cannot simply go around the destroyers.

Is the important part of the aforementioned argument when in addition I have to mention that the said fact do not exist because player is unable to change the travelling formation to the specific order.

Unless you are willing to consider how this affects you line of argumentation I'm unwilling to go along it any deeper.

43
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 13, 2020, 12:23:07 PM »
What part of this:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=17886.msg281581#msg281581

You cant understand?

All of that? When its a simple denial. And have nothing to do with understanding.


44
General Discussion / Re: How Much is a Credit Worth?
« on: February 13, 2020, 12:19:02 PM »
It costs 20 credits right from my colony stockpile.

Last time I checked, it was over 800 millions of severely undernourished people on Earth. And 1.3 billion people have experienced food insecurity at moderate levels.

This is incredibly misrepresentative of things. World hunger is a distribution problem, not a production problem.

We produce enough food to feed 1.5x the world's population - enough to feed 10 billion people. 30-40% of all food is wasted, however. This is because of inefficiency in the supply chain, such as the lack of cold storage in India, and because of too large portions being prepared, too much being purchased at once for a household to eat before it goes bad, and so on.

These are infrastructural issues.

As far as it costing 20 credits from your colony stockpile - anything you take from your colony's stockpile, you're giving them back the amount of credits they'd make if they sold it on the open market at a fair deal. No fluctuation above or below that price. The actual cost to produce any of these commodities (total cost including unseen like labor, maintenance, and opportunity (could be making/growing something else with the space)) - only Alex knows.


Starsector has these distribution problems too. When you sell food on the black market it doesnt get distributed properly and equally. Thats for sure. Same as on Earth.

US food price is also based on some median stuff. So what?

45
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 13, 2020, 11:38:11 AM »

Pirates are raiding capital worlds of the major factions. You can do that too in about... I dont know... an hour of gameplay.

Sorry, you cant have 120 ships in vanilla and the mooded game is not the subject of discussion here.

Ambush logic can not be applied to fleets with close maneuverability. This is why they can choose their positioning and formation before battle.

Point through exaggeration. You're evading the main point.

There is no exaggeration. And no point to evade.

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