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Messages - Lucky33

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16
Suggestions / Re: More tiers on bounties
« on: February 17, 2020, 09:25:22 PM »
Bounty is calculated accordingly to a full strength, not only FPs. This includes Officer quality, Ship hull and weapon quality and Fleet size (but it works in reverse to previuos two anyway).

It is determined by the faction's doctrine.

Indies:

      
      "officerQuality":2,
      "shipQuality":2,
      "numShips":3,
      

Dikties:

      
      "officerQuality":1,
      "shipQuality":3,
      "numShips":3,
      
Difference in hull and loadout quality is only 12% (level 3 is +25%, level 2 is +13%). But Indies got three times more officers. Also, these affect strength calculations twice. First, by their presence and level and, second time, by the CR boost if they got the right skill. And Indies got two times more ships with higher CR.

17
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 16, 2020, 03:38:20 AM »
They are slow. In top speed. You can look at the stats for yourself. My guess is that on tactical map, drive usage create resistance between combined field of all drives in the fleets and any individual ship. This is why you can glide at the "higher than top" speed with disabled engines but once they are back online your ship will slow down. Or you hit the borders. I have no idea what the "bubble metric" is but its definitely not Kansas. Thats for sure.

18
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 16, 2020, 12:06:54 AM »
Well, it was all about the possibility of the ambush scenario. If it is possible and the only question left is how to do it then we have exhausted the argument.

19
Suggestions / Re: Fleet cap discussion
« on: February 15, 2020, 11:24:28 PM »
There are only two factions in the vanilla who can have 10 decent officers per fleet. Hegemony and Remnant. Downfall of the first one is that officers can be only steady, second one is limited by the fact that there can be only very limited number of Radiants per fleet so most of the officers will be on the cruisers and destroyers. And both cant choose the officer builds making them suboptimal.

I can do top tier (up to 500 FP) Hegemony bounty (no dedicated support ships) with my three Onslaughts (84 FP). So I have absolutely no idea what to do with ten Onslaughts. There is no enemy in the vanilla what requires so many ships to destroy.

20
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 15, 2020, 10:33:54 PM »
Nope. I simply considered your assumption.

I'm free to tell the possible outcome of your actions as long as they were taken as they are, without any twisting. And thats exactly what I did.

My point wasnt about tactical mobility. Availability of the ambush option is decided prior to the deployment just as with the  flanking.

1. Strategic level. There all the bubbles are. Attacker (limited force of the fast frigates) flies around the defender while  waiting for the opening in the form of transport ships veering close to the bubble's border.

2. Operational level. Everything that happens prior to the battle map. Attacker initiates the battle and desides to choose an ambush option. Reason fot its existance is the possibility that, in terms of travel time, the attacker force might be closer to the transport ship than less agile ships of the defender. And that comes from the fact that in the pursuit, frigates have the flanking position option which requires flying around the whole fleet which can do nothing about it even if it tries its best. Availability of the flanking option is decided before deployment. But in our case, insteed of coming into flanking position against entire defending fleet, attacking frigates are going to cut off the stragglers. Which are obviously closer and what takes less time.

3. Tactical level. Battle map. Here you can give direct orders to your ships.

21
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 15, 2020, 02:57:29 PM »
If you order the battleships to escort the transports, former will stuck behind the latter.

And the point was that if frigates can get ahead of your ships under Full Retreat order they will have even less troubles getting wherever they want if you try anything more complex.

This is me, there, dismissing your whole idea about ambush failure.

It was your idea of the better way to handle things. It has little to do with the possibility of an ambush because it is decided before even getting onto the battle map. However your suggestion nicely illustrates why it is impractical to keep battleships and transports herded up together. In an attempt to get away from the smaller threat you made things much more vulnerable to the major one. Without resolving minor issues (frigates can still attack transports and destroy them using them as a cover and yes AI is smart enought to do exactly this).

And here I'm telling you that will happen as a result of your suggestion. Not in the ambush. But if you:

Yes, exactly, frigates are faster than anything even in a full bore pursuit. Any attempts to do something what is not a max speed retreat will help frigates even more for the reason that more complex maneuver requires more coordination and creates more delay and messing things up in general.

Go into tactical mode. Form your fleet with transports in a forward position, multiple battleships in the back.

Example 1. Command Full Retreat.

Example 2. Try to bring battleships in the position to screen the tranports.

First is much simpler and faster to execute.

Example 3. Trade battleships for frigates and repeat example 2. Feel the difference.

Simpler. Doesnt mean better. There are escort buttons. Select every ship except one, tell them to escort a single ship. Tell that ship to run like hell.

Retreat them all once they get near the end.

3 orders, hard to mess that up. Chain of command and easy communications makes it hard to mess up orders. In any case, what if i decide retreating isn't necessary? "all ships, move to area j11 and defend it." One order, and suddenly every ship, including caps, is ready to fend off frigates.

You've conceded that the caps will be part of these battles. Since they are, there's no need to run. Stand and fight, cowards!

Stand and fight.

They get in front? damn son what if the freighters stop moving (ie the very easily called out rally)- in any case this is no longer an ambush. This is simply forcing the transports into a battle in a poorly thought out way.

No longer an ambush.

It was your idea of the better way to handle things. It has little to do with the possibility of an ambush because it is decided before even getting onto the battle map. However your suggestion nicely illustrates why it is impractical to keep battleships and transports herded up together. In an attempt to get away from the smaller threat you made things much more vulnerable to the major one. Without resolving minor issues (frigates can still attack transports and destroy them using them as a cover and yes AI is smart enought to do exactly this).

It has little to do with the possibility of an ambush.

See? You didnt address my argument about frigates getting wherever they want and first at that, even before combat starts, simply as a given. Without defender issuing any battle orders. Because this is how the game works.

Everything else is the discussion of your proposal for the tactical battle. I simply accepted your idea that ambush will not start and you will get exactly that you ordered.

So? What did I twist?

22
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 15, 2020, 09:53:36 AM »
You just suggested to put both transports and battleships in the big blob.

Simpler. Doesnt mean better. There are escort buttons. Select every ship except one, tell them to escort a single ship. Tell that ship to run like hell.

Obviuosly, ambush will succeed against that.

And what am I twisting?

24
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 15, 2020, 02:11:34 AM »
It was your idea of the better way to handle things. It has little to do with the possibility of an ambush because it is decided before even getting onto the battle map. However your suggestion nicely illustrates why it is impractical to keep battleships and transports herded up together. In an attempt to get away from the smaller threat you made things much more vulnerable to the major one. Without resolving minor issues (frigates can still attack transports and destroy them using them as a cover and yes AI is smart enought to do exactly this).

25
Suggestions / Re: Sleepers Spawn in Viable Systems
« on: February 15, 2020, 12:38:40 AM »
As far as I remember its already a plan.

26
Suggestions / Re: Unify fleet points and deployment points?
« on: February 14, 2020, 11:44:10 PM »
Supply costs were seemed as a balancing parameter tied to FP. You can see it in the 0.65 ship_data, "c/fp" column. Thats credits (for the supplies needed to deploy) per fp. However at that point "supply per deployment" depended on the running costs (supply per day) and those were prohibitively high (15 supply per day for the Onslaught). So the things were reverted. Recovery cost became main parameter which defined running costs (supplies/rec = supplies/month, "Removed "deployment points" as an explicit ship stat, battle size now based on supply recovery costs").

FP is the Ship's Strength. DP is the Operating Cost.

Considering that last major change to FPs happened in 0.65, my guess is that FPs are defined by the basic stats of the ship (flux, hitpoints, armor).

27
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 14, 2020, 10:28:45 PM »
If you order the battleships to escort the transports, former will stuck behind the latter.

And the point was that if frigates can get ahead of your ships under Full Retreat order they will have even less troubles getting wherever they want if you try anything more complex.

28
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 14, 2020, 01:08:02 PM »
Yes, exactly, frigates are faster than anything even in a full bore pursuit. Any attempts to do something what is not a max speed retreat will help frigates even more for the reason that more complex maneuver requires more coordination and creates more delay and messing things up in general.

Go into tactical mode. Form your fleet with transports in a forward position, multiple battleships in the back.

Example 1. Command Full Retreat.

Example 2. Try to bring battleships in the position to screen the tranports.

First is much simpler and faster to execute.

Example 3. Trade battleships for frigates and repeat example 2. Feel the difference.

29
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 14, 2020, 11:00:56 AM »
No they cant simply do anything but their shuffle thing. Reason being Travel Drive and its non-existant turning capability noticably only on the astronomical scale. Since all Travel Drives of the fleet are working in the synchro (what makes Tugs possible) there is no distinction between individual ships. They are all similary bad or good.
I think you're right on that as far as the game explains it; even so, what's to stop them "shuffling" towards one another as an enemy fleet approaches? What's to stop them consolidating once they return to combat speed prior to the initiation of combat? How, exactly, does a group of frigates prevent this from happening, and in doing so isolate a group of ships from the main force, to the degree that they're separated by a distance it takes several in-game hours for them to regroup? How is it that a specific classification of ship are the ones isolated, as opposed to any others - despite similar levels of mobility and that those combat ships would be deployed and maneuvered in an effort to specifically to protect those ships and maintain overall cohesion?

Because its just random. Maybe its how course correction works for the Travel Drive. The fact is that you have no direct control over that veering about. So why bother?

As far as I understand "bubble physics", their contact creates a shock similar to asteroid impact. Both fleets are slowed down and effect is more noticable for the larger ones. After that you get that pre-battle dialogue and game decides that can happen next. Smaller and faster fleets can disengage while larger and slower cant. This mean that prior positioning advantage can be exploited further.

I never suggested anything about several hours time scale. I had in mind only time needed to cross the battle map. That supposed to be the "timer" I was talking about.

The question was about fast ships going around a defending fleet. Do you see the fleet of the fast ships in the back of defending fleet or did you not?
Irrelevant and proves nothing. Yes, faster fleets can maneuver around slower fleets. That does nothing to support your assertions that 1: Logistics ships would be in a vulnerable/uncovered position relative to their fleet's combat ships, or 2: that those faster ships could successfuly cut-off or isolate those logistics ships, and in doing so have enough time to accomplish anything before those combat ships could respond.
Further, it does nothing to address the fact that in the time it takes for the faster, attacking fleet to close, the defending/slower fleet can easily reorient its self to face the incoming threat, once again putting those combat ships between the attackers and the defenders' logistics ships.

I fail to see how players could be told "This weaker but faster enemy force has magically outmaneuvered your own; your logistics ships are isolated and under attack" in a way that's either satisfactory and/or allows for any agency on the player's part.

To remind you the history of the question. Inability of the fast ships to go around the slow ones was presented to me as a major argument. Before it was disproved it seemed pretty relevant and you didnt say a word against it.

But at least you dont attempt to deny reality. Good.

If you look at how ships in the bubble are moving you will notice that they always look alongside the course while their trajectory being a wavy line so what all ships shuffle their positions with time.

That means the possibility of any logistics ships to found themselves in a position closest to the border of the bubble.

And this is where the fast ships are supposed to attack.

Since they actually can go around the defending fleet, they also fully capable of picking exactly that location.

While defender can do nothing about that because all its ships are stuck on the single course. Ordering one group of ships to change it means detaching them from the main fleet.

And that's impossible. Sad also.

You misunderstand my argument.

you CANT make an attack run AND go around the fleet. The fleet is not separated in any way, even under drive since you seem to have dropped the individual drive bubble *** they are now in one fleet, burning in concert. You say turning occurs on the interstellar scale, which makes sense. Thing is, any ambushers can also be detected on the same scale. In between the fact that large fleets will have some pretty nifty sensor power and that in order to strike past the warships in the drive bubble the frigate fleet has to be large and under sustained/E burn, there's more than enough time to consolidate.

(tbh individual drive is still possible, it could be that tugs simply dock themselves to the slower ships and add their drives to those ship's burn speed)

There's also nothing stopping the combat ships from slowing down a little and thus shuffling towards the back. They don't need to fight their own velocity as they aren't maneuvering with a "stationary" object as a point of reference. With velocity relative to a chasing fleet, one could say the enemy fleet is closing in at burn level 2 or 3. All it would take to shuffle would be to slow the warships down a burn level for a couple of seconds, letting the logistics ships speed ahead while keeping the fleet in one piece, then resuming full speed and stabilizing. Once combat was entered the logistics ships could just speed off while the warships in the back fight. IE pursuit but the big fleet is running
 

When contact happened all further maneuvers are defined by the agility of the ships. Frigates do have the unique mobility advantage which allows them to deploy from the flanks in the particular type of battle. This is why they still have the upper hand even after fleet bubbles have merged (or whatever they do).

Honestly this is getting nowhere. Lucky, you keep on bickering and trying to explain how this "ambush" would even happen in the first place and keep on being overly defensive on a useless topic, because let's assume the ambush happens.
Alright, so for bounties it's useless since they don't have any logistic ships, patrols ? Good you got tiny bit of fuel and supplies from destroying what little cargo ships they have but nothing valuable and next time they catch you they'll kick your teeth in since their actual combat force is untouched. The only fleets that this mechanic would be good against is trading convoys, but those are already lightly defended so it's simply serves as a method to exploit trading convoys risk free...
As for the gameplay, it's a glorified pursuit but without destroyers and above.
And if the AI is capable of doing it to the player then frigates become nothing more than a logistic vessel that the players shoves in his fleet with efficiency overhaul out of obligation just to make sure he doesn't loose all of his cargo ships.
Your whole suggestion was flawed to begin with as many people pointed out and instead of trying to improve it you kept on defending it.
Unless you rethink this whole idea I see no point in arguing with you seeing how bloody stubborn you are.

Thats your personal opinion to what you are entitled to but do not force it on me. You either want to participate in the dialogue or you dont. Please, make a choice.

30
Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering
« on: February 14, 2020, 09:58:37 AM »
No they cant simply do anything but their shuffle thing. Reason being Travel Drive and its non-existant turning capability noticably only on the astronomical scale. Since all Travel Drives of the fleet are working in the synchro (what makes Tugs possible) there is no distinction between individual ships. They are all similary bad or good.

As far as I'm aware, player is not supposed to directly command several fleets in any foreseeable future.


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