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Messages - Voyager I

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General Discussion / Re: ECCM package
« on: August 27, 2012, 11:07:40 PM »
Unguided rockets are still dumbfired, but they go faster so it is easier to aim with them.  The improvement in guidance is also quite significant, and combined with the speed upgrade can determine whether or not a type of missile is able to reliably catch evasive targets like fighters and the nimbler frigates.

General Discussion / Re: paragon loadouts
« on: August 23, 2012, 03:50:06 PM »
I would consider Stabilized Shields to be a standard fitting on the Paragon, given that it saves you 375 flux for 15 OP and you will have your shields up in almost all combat situations.

This goes double for Resistant Flux Conduits, which are currently venting more per OP than vents in addition to the EMP protection.

General Discussion / Re: Gonna miss my Hammerhead :'(
« on: August 22, 2012, 01:19:22 PM »
I'm just wondering how you managed to get three Hammerheads.  I have never seen one for sale beyond the one that starts out in the Hegemony station.  I guess you just have to hunt mercenaries and get lucky?

General Discussion / Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« on: August 21, 2012, 05:15:25 PM »
not in particular, there's enough ways to close / widen the gap.

i think we just gotta settle that it's a novelty weapon that is supposed to be used by one ship with one specific loadout.

If alex wanted that he would make it a built in weapon like he did with the onslaught

However, he didn't and so the community is proposing ways to make the weapon balanced

Frankly, it's not good even on the Conquest.  The Conquest is just the only ship that can even try to use it.

General Discussion / Re: What type of ship do you fly?
« on: August 21, 2012, 03:48:27 PM »
If you're going to use an energy weapon for your secondaries, you might as well turret mount them and put two of the blasters in your fixed points.  Not like you're gonna be tracking any targets with those bad boys.

General Discussion / Re: Mjolnir Cannon: Anyone Use It?
« on: August 21, 2012, 02:38:16 PM »
i don't see why cost should be a consideration factor when it can be made moot.

That's why you can't grasp why Mjolnirs are bad. In vanilla Starfarer, there's almost much no such thing as making flux costs moot. Flux efficiency is one of the most important stats for a capital ship. It gives you more flux to fire your guns and keep your shields up for longer. Having efficient weapons is both an offensive and defensive choice.

The only way for flux cost to be moot is if your dissipation is greater that your upkeep. 2 Mjolnirs on their own use up almost all of a Conquest's theoretical max dissipation, and uses that flux less efficiently than any other large ballistic weapon. (And so you know, every point of flux dissipation is more valuable than the last, since it dissipates a greater percentage of the remaining flux buildup than the last)

Even if you go for some combination other than Storm Needler and Hephaestus, it would give you more OP to spend on hull mods or additional capacitors. No matter how you look at it, Mjolnirs are bad.

i'd like to think i can't grasp why they are bad because i don't quite believe in this nonsense that you just presented to me.

If you really, honestly care why some people here think you're a troll, this little exchange shows off most of the problem.  I'm not going to sugar coat this at all, but please understand that my intent here is not to aggravate you.

The starting point is that you don't understand game mechanics.  While not getting the nuts-and-bolts of a video game certainly doesn't make you a bad person, it does mean you end up in a lot of arguments, which is where things start to go downhill.  Naufrago has done a very good job of illustrating exactly what makes the Mjolnir not worth using, but his point goes over your head.  What really gets people riled up isn't that you disagreed, but that you often come across as disrespectful in doing so.  In this case, you're dismissing his entire statement as nonsense.  Even if you weren't trying to be rude, it certainly sounded that way to everyone else.  The combination of being wrong and disrespectful absolutely drives people crazy and it's why you get so much anger thrown at you.  You also have a habit of getting worked up when people repeatedly disagree with you, which means that these arguments have a tendency to turn ugly.  It even happened on the forum thread that was cross-posted here.  People will always disagree with you on the internet, even when you're right, but as a general rule the first person to get angry ends up looking like a jackass and is probably going to bear the brunt of the moderation.

In this particular instance, you need to understand resource management.  Flux and OP are limited resources.  They aren't the only resources a ship has, but they're probably the most important when it comes to design.  The heart of making a good ship is to use these limited resources to the greatest possible effect.  That's what makes the Mjolnir bad.  The damage output is fine; it's pretty typical for a weapon in that category.  However, other large ballistics can give you the same damage for a much lower flux cost.  This means the Mjolnir is a poor choice, because why would I use one thing when something else can do the same job cheaper?  You can build your ship to compensate for the Mjolnir's high flux cost, but that's not really solving the problem.  That's flux you can't use to keep shields up or fire other weapons, or maybe it's OP you had to spend on vents instead of something else.  If you went for a more efficient option, you could get the same damage output and something else in addition using the same amount of your resources.

This doesn't mean you can't use the Mjolnir or that it doesn't work.  You can certainly throw some on a ship, go click on things, and have them blow up.  It's just worse than other means to the same end, which means it should be changed to be competitive with the other options.  That's another thing you should understand.  If something is working badly (or too well), the best thing you can do for the game is to call attention to it and explain why it should be changed.  Defending something that's bad does nobody any favors.  It's not a matter of sticking up for the underdog; pointing out problems so they can be fixed helps the game get better, which I'm sure is something you want.  This game is very early in development, so balance will be changed regularly and user feedback is one of the best tools Alex has for this.  Think of everyone as a playtester.  We aren't just here to fly around and blow up spaceships; we're here to help making flying around and blowing up spaceships as much fun as it can possibly be, and that means giving feedback on potential improvements.

Suggestions / Re: Resistant Flux Conduits
« on: August 21, 2012, 07:56:00 AM »
Resistant Flux Conduits isn't quite as good as it might seem at first, since it only modifies base flux dissipation, but it's still completely amazing.

Stabilized Shields is similar.  For most ships it pretty much just breaks even with spending the same amount of OP on vents, but a few get a pretty good boost out of it...and then there's the Aurora, which just takes it to another level by getting rid of 250 flux for 9 OP.

If you don't have Stabilized Shields on your Aurora you are officially Doing It Wrong.

There's nothing bugged with the Hyperion at the moment, although I do think something may have to be done about them.  They're basically playing their own game at the moment, and as a player your only real recourse is to let them blink around while you kill the rest of their fleet and they decide to retreat, unless you get lucky and the AI does something suicidal.

I do agree that the AI is prone to serious lapses in self-preservation, but they seem to be pretty good about taking care of themselves when they aren't under direct orders.  I have seen fighter wings very deliberately stay outside of PD range in engagements.  Perhaps commands are overriding their survival instincts?  They already have the ability to evaluate threats, so maybe they just need the ability to path around dangerous areas instead of making beelines, and maybe some general anti-suicide protocols so they can understand that "intercept this bomber wing" does not mean "follow this bomber wing unsupported into the heart of the enemy carrier fleet".

With regards to the Tempest;

First of all, the AI devotes an inordinate amount of effort to killing the Terminator Drone.  While it's certainly too strong to ignore, between its small size, phase cloak, and phase skip, getting rid of it is always a chore...and then the Tempest just pops out a new one.  Quite often, the better way to get rid of the drone is to kill the Tempest itself, given that they're a fragile unit with a small shield arc and one of the few hi-tech frigates that doesn't have an escape ability (other than being obnoxiously fast).  Don't take this as hate on the Tempest or his little buddy, because I think they make an awesome unit and the 20,000 credit pricetag is a pretty fair check on their usefulness; I just feel like the AI should be directing much more attention to getting rid of the Tempest itself, rather than its easily replaceable drone.

The Tempest itself does seem to get a little bit suicidal, sometimes.  I'm running three of them in my fleet right now, and by far the greatest cause of Tempest losses is their habit of hugging enemy ships that are about to explode and getting caught in the blast.  I'm currently giving them a Pulse Laser, PD Laser, and a single-shot Atropos with Advanced Optics, Auxiliary Thrusters, Resistant Flux Conduints, and a whole lotta vents.  Given that they're a fragile, evasive unit with 800 range on their primary weapon, I have no idea why they're doing that makes them get that close to the enemy.  I don't think they're trying to do bombing runs, because I had the same problem when I was using a single-shot Harpoon in place of the torpedo.  They also have this behavior when using a Heavy Blaster as their primary gun.

I've also noticed that enemy Phase Cloakers have a habit of popping out of phase for split seconds when surrounded by hostiles.  I'm not sure what their goal is, since they don't have time to vent anything.  They just end up increasing their flux with the activation cost and taking a bit of damage from any beam weapons that happen to be watching them.  This often happens in situations where they had no chance of escaping before being forced out of phase anyways.  The only guess I could venture is that the "I need to vent" and "I need to stay in phase" priorities aren't talking to each other correctly.

Suggestions / Re: Buffalo Fix
« on: August 20, 2012, 02:40:33 AM »
I don't think its supposed to be combat capable in the first place.
Once you're actually hauling stuff around the galaxy it'll fall into its role perfectly.

Aye, the buffalo MK2 actually has so little fuel and cargo that its utterly useless for hauling. In addition it has the same max crew and crew requirement, meaning you have 0 extra crew and if one guy dies and you have no extra somewhere else you're  *deleted* .

I still think it should be cheaper for what it is.  :P

Making the Buffalo cheaper would ruin them in their primary capacity as early-game income.

General Discussion / Re: Harpoon MRM overpowered?
« on: August 20, 2012, 01:30:12 AM »
They're very strong against vulnerable, but shields and PD do a good job of keeping them in check, especially in larger fleet engagements with overlapping PD bubbles.  The only things they're really amazing against are Buffalos and Hounds, but those ships are supposed to be easy kills for players just starting to cut their teeth.

All together, it seems like things are working as intended.  Also, don't underrate the Salamander.  Engine hits are a pain, and if you're already engaging the target from another angle then they get to pick what part of their ship gets blown up.

General Discussion / Re: Fighters
« on: August 20, 2012, 12:49:54 AM »
and that is where the fallacy begins:

See, you are the one getting aggressive here, making pouty faces and throwing out accusations like this.

by looking just at OP cost, all the fighters look meh in comparison.

however, at some point you will reach a stage where it would be more beneficial to replace ships with fighters due to the fact that those ships are barely contributing to the fights either because they can't get there or the field is so saturated that they are taking more time maneuvering than they are shooting.

It's a pretty clear pattern that that bigger things are more OP efficient in terms of how much survivability and firepower they bring to the battle.  This is offset by other advantages for the lighter frames and weapons like torpedoes that do a good job of leveling the playing field.  Nobody here is saying that fighters in general are useless.  Instead, we are looking at one specific fighter that has a cost which is out of line with its capabilities.  There is nothing wrong with having a slow, heavyweight fighter that serves as an escort for destroyers and other heavier craft, but we're talking about a support wing that has the same deployment cost as the destroyers themselves (and a pricetag that isn't too far off that mark) and loses the signature mobility of fighters without really getting anything to make up for it.

What do people think of the Torpedo Bombers?  For 5 points they can put a pretty big dent into things...but then again, for 5 points I could just load up a Lasher with Atropos Racks and missile upgrades.
I'd say they're worth it if you can protect them and reload them. A Lasher runs out of ammo after one volley, Daggers can reload. 12000 points of HE damage per reload is some serious firepower. The dagger clearly wins for strike purposes: The Lasher can only match a Dagger's strike power once with it's first volley, then it has minimal strike power afterwards... While the daggers are still running around with 12000 points of hurt just waiting for a ship to get in front of them.

The only reason I'm hesitant to use them is that things big enough to get hit by unguided torpedoes tend to have a lot of point defenses around them.  The little guys seem to be good at getting their payloads through thanks to fighter pathing and an fearless AI routine, but I'm not sure I trust them to make it back afterwards.  They have to survive (or at least deliver) two runs to match a Lasher, which can mount twin three racks with guidance upgrades and transitions into a handy anti-fighter platform after it runs dry.

General Discussion / Re: Fighters
« on: August 19, 2012, 09:29:58 PM »
My mistake, I was mixing up the wing counts with the Gladius.  Still, even at three to a squad, they just aren't worth that outrageous fleet cost.  It's really hard to justify spending 10 FP on a fighter wing when the unit itself has significant limitations and another 2 points gets you a midline destroyer.

People haven't been getting aggressive with you.  We're not even trying to gang up on you.  You just happen to find many people independently coming to a conclusion contrary to your own, because most people are going to look at a unit with that kind of associated cost and expect it to do much more than the Warthog is capable of.  It's not to say the Warthog is useless or even bad as a design; it's just an inefficient use of a very precious resource.

What do people think of the Torpedo Bombers?  For 5 points they can put a pretty big dent into things...but then again, for 5 points I could just load up a Lasher with Atropos Racks and missile upgrades.

General Discussion / Re: Fighters
« on: August 19, 2012, 04:33:21 PM »

im not even going to honor an answer if youre not going to read the thread in it's entirety.

Melodrama is pointless.

A single Warthog costs as many fleet point as a Lasher.  They're not even close to worth it.

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