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Messages - Morrokain

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781
Ah - SettingsAPI has:
List<HullModSpecAPI> getAllHullModSpecs();

I highly recommend checking the javadoc, here:
http://fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/index.html?overview-summary.html

In this case for example you could open up the page for SettingsAPI (which has all this kind of stuff) and search for "hullmod".

Ah thanks! Most helpful! Never would have thought it would be under settings. I don't check that doc as often as I should. I generally assume the IDE can handle the searching, but keyword searching from the doc is much better here if I have no clue where to start. Good point!

782
Isn't there a HullModSpecAPI.setHidden() method? Might not be in the current release, hmm.

IIRC the stuff for sale is from the faction's known hullmods. As far as drops, yeah, they could drop if they're not hidden, since drops are based on tags. I *think* if you add a no_drop tag to the hullmod it won't drop but I'm not 100% sure that in the currently-released version all the drop groups respect the tag.

There might be but I can't verify because: The problem is that I can't seem to find a way to get the list of all HullModSpecAPIs from Global. I haven't thoroughly checked, to be sure, but I can't find anything that actually returns that object. Maybe it is in persistentData? If so, what is the key and return value? List, Map, Set, etc?

If I can get access to those I can both add that tag and set them as hidden and hope for the best! And that way I can set it up to be configurable in settings. Otherwise I just have to use the csv override, but it's better than nothing!

783
Been digging around the API, and though I know I can clear known hullmods from factions (to replace them with custom versions), I can't seem to find a way to set a vanilla hullmod to HIDDEN (so it won't spawn in markets) through code instead of the csv file. Is this possible, or is this even necessary? Does removing them from variants and the known hullmods list prevent them from showing up in markets? I know it prevents them from showing up in autofit fleets, but I wasn't sure about the market part.

Also, if the above is true, do they ever spawn randomly in loot?

784
Modding / Re: [0.9.1a] Simple Bribes
« on: July 14, 2020, 02:20:18 PM »
Expanding on what Johnny Cocas said, his warnings are sound, but I get that putting work into a mod that immediately gets warnings of this kind can be discouraging. So, what I'll say is:

If you need help doing a better implementation - just ask! Many are willing to give some time from their day to help a new modder - especially when it benefits the community as a whole!  :)

Since I am also working (slowly but surely - my god there is a lot to do!) on my own faction dialogue mod that will have bribery as part of the dialogue options, I can tell you that making it not impact faction mods and letting them tweak how the bribery mechanic works faction by faction IS possible! Because of how Rules works, that can be done without impacting any custom scripts.

@Johnny Cocas
I'm not sure I agree with the overall analysis of who would accept bribes and who would not. I mean, if Luddic Path accepts/demands them, then pretty much most if not all vanilla factions (outside the AI ones) would. They would accept credits over smashing high tech vessels and their doctrine literally revolves around those things being sinful! In that sense, they would be the ones most obvious to not accept them, but they do. lol.  ;D

Mod factions obviously would depend upon the vision of the mod author - which is why giving them a lever to allow/disallow this sort of thing is important.

785
I don't know much about what you are asking, myself, but this may prove useful:

Animation Tutorial

786
General Discussion / Re: 0.9.1a Balance Testing Case Study: Condor
« on: July 13, 2020, 09:34:38 PM »
Building fleet around 10 officers is already staple of current meta. Anything else is wildly sub-optimal, with sole exception of Spark Drover spam.

(to edit) It would no less stupid for max skilled ships to refuse to use their advantage (by simply not firing).
I disagree on it being a wasted advantage if the ships are saving flux and using their other weapons effectively. You shouldn't need an anti-ship weapon (what non anti-fighter/PD large weapons ideally should be) to deal with fighters in the first place imo. Hellbore definitely qualifies as anti-ship in the era where shields weren't a thing. Gauss is the reaction to said shielded ships. To me, if that were the case and these larger weapons are needed to fend off fighters, there is a problem there in terms of overall fighter balance. That means, inherently, that things that don't have these weapons (so anything less than a capital in 95% of cases) are at a strict disadvantage against them.

If meta is based on officers, it really shouldn't be. Skill changes will hopefully address this a bit. I don't want really anything other than campaign difficulty designed around officers making a ship/weapon more powerful. If weapons are designed around that, the weapon is essentially broken in my eyes - one way or the other. There are soo many problems with that sort of design - and they hit hardest on the side of the enemy AI fleets. Officered ships aren't guaranteed to match weapons with hullmods or skills of any kind. The exception is carriers/non-carriers and even then only in category not in specific benefit. So if a weapon needs these skills to be effective at something, that is a losing gamble the majority of the time.

Weapons should ideally work within their role regardless of skills or even hullmods. Same goes for fighters. If a fighter is only useful with skills, it's a bad fighter and should be looked at - especially if it is high tier. These sorts of things are bonuses and as such they should not be design considerations for what works or does not work, but rather they are useful tools to get past a higher difficulty at the later stages of the game.

I also don't want to limit AI builds to whether the ship supports an officer or not. This is especially true because officers are less often found on smaller ships both with player fleets and AI fleets. Smaller ships suffer the most anyway due to limited PPT and weapons. It is already a little painful to have to limit builds based upon the AI limitations as it is. Though I definitely understand the considerations and difficulty of balancing, when I see things like "this isn't an AI-friendly ship/weapon" I grimace a bit. It's understandable to be sure, but ideal? No.

The point is to make changes trending away from this rather than towards it. That's how I see it, anyway. I'm also not advocating that all ship weapons only target ships, etc, I definitely agree there is room for multipurpose/multirole weapons and that is fine. But so is there room (and necessity in a couple cases) for the opposite- a more strict role that the weapon excels at over multipurpose weapons performing the same one.

787
General Discussion / Re: 0.9.1a Balance Testing Case Study: Condor
« on: July 13, 2020, 07:21:36 PM »
(Says video is private.)

Whoops! Fixed that sorry!

Unless it also has USE_VS_FRIGATES? But anyway, that's getting pretty off-topic for the thread. My apologies for contributing to that, myself.

(It does, yeah. But agreed this is off-topic. I'll make a new post if I can get a solid case for it. My fault!)

788
General Discussion / Re: 0.9.1a Balance Testing Case Study: Condor
« on: July 13, 2020, 06:53:04 PM »
Putting STRIKE weapons on autofire seems like a bad idea, so the AI... doesn't. It's not specifically about fighters; STRIKE makes the AI take more care with aiming the weapon at other targets (which is why adding it can make it hesitant to fire, since it's looking for a higher-percentage shot).

Ehhh, that doesn't seem to be the reason. The weapons I'm talking about are small, fast projectile weapons or even instant strike beams against capitals. They do fire, but not efficiently in regards to their clip/regen.

(Working on reproducing this. I have one case - but the weapon not being used is HE and the shields are up on the enemy vessel. So I'm not sure if that is a good example. That being said, other HE strike weapons are used on shields at times.)

Quote
To be honest, I kind of forgot about Gauss/Hellbore piercing missiles; I probably wouldn't want to use this tag on them in vanilla. But for mods, yeah, it could be handy. My concern is it'd be overused by mods - i.e. put on weapons where equivalent-ish vanilla weapons don't do this...

Why is that a concern? It would/certainly should be reported to the mod author- not against vanilla. If the modder chooses to do this then they would take on the burden of any subsequent bug reports (and again stat card/description explanations make a huge difference there.) If they get annoyed by it then they can just not use the hint.

Quote
STRIKE,USE_VS_FRIGATES certainly helps, but it's not always fullproof in the case of missiles - especially when combined with DO_NOT_CONSERVE which is necessary to ensure the AI uses the full clip. I remember seeing non-missile weapons sometimes fire at fighters too with that hint... but tbh that could have been an earlier version or back when my station modules still had the periodic missile reload mod - which iirc changes autofire AI. It doesn't happen often.

Hmm? Yeah, probably to do with the missile reload. As a rule, AI won't fire non-ANTI_FTR missiles at fighters unless it's in panic mode.

They don't have that hullmod anymore and in this case I'm talking about ships. And this is not the case in my experience regarding the Atropos - specifically. That is, unless "overwhelming" (as in just numerous not actually threatening) fighters cause panic mode for some reason.

Evidence:
Spoiler
Screens of Weapon definition:

Start:

End:


Video Evidence: (Towards the end.)
[close]

789
General Discussion / Re: 0.9.1a Balance Testing Case Study: Condor
« on: July 13, 2020, 04:52:58 PM »
Yeah, that makes sense. It seems easy to underestimate just how quickly a bunch of kinetic damage can drive up flux, and in the case of Broadswords, it seems like firing off an HB shot or two and not makes a difference of a few seconds, which isn't too much.

Still, the HB is definitely a tricky weapon for the AI to use! It's just... how it is, I suppose, with it being a bit of an outlier in terms of flux use and damage and so on. It really benefits from more situational awareness and forward planning. So it'll naturally be less good in AI hands in some situations, of which "vs *some* (but not all) fighters" is one, but not the sum total. So it probably doesn't make too much sense to over-focus on fixing that specific one.

(Actually, talking about this now, I'm remembering spending a bunch of time tuning the "whether to put a group on autofire" logic specifically for these kinds of situations! That the HB is better even in some situations, on a heavily over-fluxed loadout, seems like a win.)

Even something like Hellbores - they'll miss fighters a lot, but they're pretty effective vs, say, incoming Piranhas or Flash bombers, no? Due to the shots passing through missiles. And that's a cool moment, to see a hellbore shell carve a path through a cloud of bombs. Plus it's flux-cheap! I understand what you mean about it costing zero-flux bonus, though; I'm sure you're right in it being detrimental for that reason in that situation. But that seems like a rather minor issue overall; I don't know that it's worth the cost of "adding a new rule the player has to remember about the Hellbore so they're not confused" and "the Hellbore is also *less* useful in some (possibly/maybe smaller) number of situations".

You know, speaking of this, can you remember why the AI needs to put a STRIKE hinted weapon off autofire and fire it manually? - When the player putting such a weapon on autofire doesn't actually make it used on fighters? I'm curious about it.

(I'm more leaning towards including the "don't fire at fighters" hint, btw. The idea of calling it out explicitly is really selling me on it; could see maybe using it for a few vanilla weapons, even.)

Missed this! Yay!  ;D

I hope it happens. My mod really needs this for several weapons. Basically using any weapon that generates flux that isn't specifically designed to be used for fighters should not be used on fighters. (it's a DnD based mod so weapon types are more synergistic and role based and less multipurpose like how vanilla's are)

STRIKE,USE_VS_FRIGATES certainly helps, but it's not always fullproof in the case of missiles - especially when combined with DO_NOT_CONSERVE which is necessary to ensure the AI uses the full clip. I remember seeing non-missile weapons sometimes fire at fighters too with that hint... but tbh that could have been an earlier version or back when my station modules still had the periodic missile reload mod - which iirc changes autofire AI. It doesn't happen often.

One thing that is a downside is the no-autofire behavior I mentioned above. Too many weapon groups of that category and the AI won't switch between them and use them effectively.

790
General Discussion / Re: 0.9.1a Balance Testing Case Study: Condor
« on: July 13, 2020, 03:19:50 PM »
In theory (and in the dev build :D), the AI shouldn't be autofiring high-flux weapons to that degree. If it is, it's a problem, but solving it by making drastic changes to how the AI uses a large fraction of weapons ... doesn't seem like the right move.

Yeah I agree with this overall. To be fair, I don't think most people are arguing for a *large* fraction of weapons to be changed - depending upon your definition of large. It is more just that there are use cases here that exist in vanilla weapons that would be an overall benefit to vanilla if that makes sense. A large fraction of weapons would probably be going too far with it - if things like the Heavy Blaster and Gauss Cannon are any indication.

From what I've seen the heavy kinetic damage + high impulse of multiple Atropos torpedoes is more what causes overloads than the AI overrunning it's flux - though an argument could certainly be made that it could be the combination of those two things (inefficient flux use being the second) that gets the AI in trouble in the first place - so there is definitely a gray area to consider.

(And of course the diversity of design spectrum that has already been mentioned. Vanilla comes first! But, well, mods are also a pretty big factor too considering the number and quality of them that currently exist. Not trying to be pushy here, btw, in case it seems that way because text != tone. I'm just getting my overall thoughts out on the subject. :) Anyway, the number of responses already indicates you take these things seriously and I think I can speak for all of us when I say we really appreciate it.)

791
General Discussion / Re: 0.9.1a Balance Testing Case Study: Condor
« on: July 13, 2020, 01:50:42 PM »
I maintain my stance that the Helbore could stand to have the "DO_NOT_FIRE_AT_FIGHTERS" tag. It hurts more than it helps. That being said, I was surprised at the difference Hypervelocity Drivers, Heavy Maulers, and even the flux hungry Gauss Cannon can make due to their faster projectiles and the sluggishness of bombers.

Passthrough weapons (Hellbore, Gauss, Plasma) on high level character are all awesome against fighters. Enemy fleet concentrates multiple carriers on you -> backpedal while firing -> most fighters die before they reach you (rest is handled by PD and allied interceptor screen) -> enemy carriers are at low replenishment and open for attack.

HVD, Mauler, etc also become a lot more accurate with character skills (faster projectiles, less recoil, better target leading...).
Edit: Alex beat me to this point I think.

Spoiler
That's what I meant by Pyhrric Victory: by firing these flux-intensive weapons at fighters, you lose even if you hit. If there is nothing else to fire at and you're at 0-flux, I get it, but the fighters are absolutely winning if the ship in question generates more flux trying to kill them than the fighters' weapons themselves.  At best, firing these big guns are grossly inefficient when they hit. At worst, you're dumping huge flux/shot and hitting nothing

It's a very complicated question actually.  It doesn't need to be a 0-flux game to be worth it.  It depends on the fighter, the weapon in question, and how much flux you're generating right now versus flux dissipation.  If the fighters are all on one side of your ship, then only half your guns are firing.  A broadside ships exploit this fact.  Also, if only PD weapons are firing, generally you are nowhere near hitting your dissipation rate.

Take a 4400 flux Hammerhead, turn off all weapons fire, raise shields and sit there.  Send 2 wings of broadswords at it from a Condor.  It'll overload in about 3 seconds from when the Broadswords start firing.  Just tested in sim.  On paper a single broadsword deals 156 kinetic damage per second, or 312 shield damage per second.  I vaguely remember fighter machine guns firing half as often than ship ones or the like.  Anyways, 4400 flux/0.8 efficiency/6 fighters/3 seconds = 305 shield damage per second per fighter.  Seems to check out roughly.  So we have a rough estimate of the DPS of a single Broadsword (which I suppose means dual Broadsword Condors with Harpoons should be kinda scary - 936 kinetic damage per second at long range, flux free followed up by HE missiles).

Unskilled heavy blasters require 2 projectiles to connect to completely kill a broadsword.  It is worth it to kill a broadsword if they hit both hit, and it would have lived for 4.6 seconds longer otherwise (1440/312) assuming your shield is 1.0 efficient and you're already using up all your flux dissipation.  On the other hand, most ships do not reach their flux dissipation only firing their PD weapons, so 1440/312 isn't the right thing to compare.  Its flux above dissipation.  If your spare dissipation is, hypothetically, 800 (after shields and all other weapons), then the comparison is  640/312 = 2.05 seconds.

Take a shrike.  Lets say it has a Heavy Blaster, 4 PD Lasers, Sabot Pod, and 610 flux dissipation (a player design), weapons adds up to 880, and shield is another 105, so 985 max builldup versus 610 dissipation.

A wing of broadswords come in.  4 PD lasers deal 300 energy damage per second, at a cost of 160 flux per second.  Shield costs 105 flux per second.  So without firing the Heavy Blaster, you're sitting at -345 flux per second.  The broadswords are dealing 936 klinetic damage, or 1310 shield damage (including the 0.7 modifier) per second.  With 8200 flux capacity, it'll last 6.2 seconds or so with shields up.

Now, the Broadsword flares basically mean the PD lasers are useless for about 6 seconds.  The heavy blaster on the other hand, isn't distracted and will shoot at fighters.  Lets say half the heavy blaster shots hit.  So you're spending 1,500 extra flux (720*4-345*4) to kill a broadsword in 4 seconds.  If that broadsword would have lived for another 6.9 seconds, it was worth it.  Or the other way to put it, if it buys you a 6.9 second reprieve from a fighter (i.e. rebuild time and fly back out to you is 6.9 seconds or longer), and you've got 50% accuracy, you should be firing that Heavy blaster.  Given Broadswords take 10 seconds to replace, the answer is always yes (assuming that 50% hit rate).  For this particular ship against Broadswords.  Which is not a 0-flux balanced ship.
[close]

First of all, thank you for providing math! It's beyond what I am willing to do haha.

I would be curious to see a retest of that scenario - only with IPDA installed on the Shrike. As I mentioned in my above post, flares heavily skew the benefit of things like the Heavy Blaster exactly for the reasons you state. If it's the only weapon that actually can fire at the fighters, then it makes a lot more sense for it to do so. In fact, I'd even go so far to say that flares are too strong. Anyway, the point is that it's sort of an isolated situation. You could argue the same thing in regards to the Spark having shields vs beams, actually. Heavy Blaster would probably look useful there too assuming it can hit the Spark. But it's more a limitation of the PD weapon than the effectiveness of the Heavy Blaster. Maybe try IPDA with a couple IR pulse lasers and it might be different in the Spark scenario.

Now, compared to Autopulse Laser wasting charges, I think the Heavy Blaster is a much better candidate to shoot at fighters.

Passthrough weapons (Hellbore, Gauss, Plasma) on high level character are all awesome against fighters. Enemy fleet concentrates multiple carriers on you -> backpedal while firing -> most fighters die before they reach you (rest is handled by PD and allied interceptor screen) -> enemy carriers are at low replenishment and open for attack.

HVD, Mauler, etc also become a lot more accurate with character skills (faster projectiles, less recoil, better target leading...).

I haven't tested Plasma yet but that is what I've heard. I already said Gauss was pretty good... though I didn't see any passthrough there against Daggers. Helbore?? That is not my experience at all after several hours of testing.

Yes, it is without character skills but that is the point! Not all of your AI ships can have officers so they should be left out of the equation completely. I don't want behavior that is only good for 1/3 of my allied ships!  ;)

*EDIT* Another counterpoint to that - it would make those skills more mandatory than they really need to be.

792
General Discussion / Re: 0.9.1a Balance Testing Case Study: Condor
« on: July 13, 2020, 01:22:12 PM »
Ok, so I've done some testing using an Onslaught with Helbores and dual flak vs the stock Astral Strike carrier and a couple things immediately stand out:

1) Flares distracting PD artificially increases the value of large weapons against fighters to a large degree because they still actually fire at fighters - generating more losses than would happen otherwise. Putting on Integrated Point Defense AI makes a world of difference there, and when that is equipped my theory holds true a little more than without it.

2) The AI, even in this version, is very good at doing its best to keep low flux - and picks it targets pretty carefully. Even still, the majority of helbore shots miss even bombers - which are ridiculously slow and do not try and dodge anything. In this regard, the TPCs of the Onslaught actually do better against incoming waves than any other weapon. This breaks down completely if the wave is coming from anywhere but the front obviously.

3) Despite 2, the flux raised in a 1v1 scenario only slows the battle down. It is not detrimental and the Onslaught actually wins 2/3 times even with the Astral's OP ship system. It takes about 30 minutes, but it still wins.

4) Despite 3, fighter losses more or less occur at the same rate if the Helbores don't fire at them. Maybe one or two additional bombers are lost while retreating simply due to the long range, but up close PD is far, far more effective. If the Onslaught gets its zero flux boost sooner by not firing them, the battle would likely be shorter.

5) Longbow/Dagger/Astral system is extremely potent even not considering flares/kinetic damage from the Broadswords. Even a fully PD oriented Onslaught (except Helbores) cannot stop everything and shield tanking is absolutely necessary. That wouldn't be so bad if the system didn't prevent PD from doing pretty much anything to fighters even with IPDA installed. By the time the missiles are stopped and the strike craft are close enough, they are teleported away without any damage except the long range damage from TPCs/Lucky Helbore hits. I would imagine this alone kind of skews the perspective of large non-pd weapons being necessary against fighters.

6) When testing against 2 stock Herons, again the positioning matters, Daggers are very hard to stop, and Helbore shots hurt the Onslaughts ability to both chase and get the zero flux boost so that it can turn fast enough to actually use its shields to tank the Daggers. This is very subtle because on the surface it would seem that the Helbores' lucky hits are good, but it isn't enough to reduce the replacement rate fast enough to matter and the zero flux boost is the more important part in that particular matchup. The thing that kills the Onslaught 100% of the time is Daggers striking where its shields can't cover.

7) When testing against 2 stock Moras, Helbore shots are completely wasted, but it really doesn't matter much. This is both because the Mora's fighters aren't nearly as much of a threat compared to Daggers and PD can handle them, and because the Mora actually engages the Onslaught itself, so chasing/keeping low flux isn't as necessary.

Conclusions so far:

I maintain my stance that the Helbore could stand to have the "DO_NOT_FIRE_AT_FIGHTERS" tag. It hurts more than it helps. That being said, I was surprised at the difference Hypervelocity Drivers, Heavy Maulers, and even the flux hungry Gauss Cannon can make due to their faster projectiles and the sluggishness of bombers.


These tests were all in a 1v1 or 1v2 (equal DP) setting, so I think the next thing to do is test these same things (and energy weapons) in a large fleet scenario and see how that changes things.

793
General Discussion / Re: 0.9.1a Balance Testing Case Study: Condor
« on: July 12, 2020, 05:29:04 PM »
^ I'll hopefully give some video evidence of what I'm talking about later tonight after I watch some Survivor.  :)

To be fair, I totally get where you are coming from - especially when the work effort calculation seems not worth it for the payoffs! I think the nuance is small- but snowballs into problems under certain circumstances. And those problems outweigh the problems created by the opposite implementation. (I don't think it would create bug reports if the description mentioned something, btw, but that's just one tiny facet of the overall equation.)

This will likely include vanilla and modded ships (in separate simulations) to hopefully really nail down the point.

*EDIT* Histidine beat me to it.  ;D

794
General Discussion / Re: 0.9.1a Balance Testing Case Study: Condor
« on: July 12, 2020, 04:28:24 PM »
I could see a use case for something not firing at fighters *at all* though. I just don't think it would make sense for this to apply to the vast majority of weapons, e.g. nothing in vanilla.
For example, you might want to fire a Plasma Cannon -or even a Gauss Cannon - at fighters if the flux situation is good or if the carrier is very far away and you don't have any other targets in range. But if you do have other targets in range, then you might want to prioritize those instead.

*EDIT* (Fleshing out what I mean better- hopefully.)

I disagree. There are many weapons that would ultimately benefit from this. Hellbore for one. Really any alpha strike or inaccurate weapon that creates high flux. I would argue that killing a fighter is not worth the flux build up at least 75% of the time. Plasma is the sole exception and that is *only* because it penetrates fighters.

To your example, maybe the player would want to do this, but AI ships? I'm less convinced there. I actually wouldn't want the AI to fire a Gauss Cannon or a Hypervelocity Driver at fighters. Mark XIV maaaybe, but even then I'd worry about the flux cost.

The reason is that fighters are unlimited. It doubles down on the other issues mentioned that cause stagnating warships even under eliminate commands. It may close with the enemy under ideal conditions, but how long will those ideal conditions last in an actual fleet scenario if the warship is running up its flux both by taking hits from attack fighters and from using high flux generating weapons that aren't as likely to hit the fighters and so waste the overall defenses and time for the warship to reach the carrier?

The likely scenario is that even if the fighters are reduced the high flux will cause the warship to back off to vent - only slowing down the battle and exacerbating the problem for the warship because now escorts have probably reach the carrier - making the next attempt even more likely to fail. It is all of these things coming into play at once.

And that is all before even considering modding. Want to have a long cooldown burst beam? You have to make the turn rate abysmal or even under strike it will sometimes target fighters. Same thing with guided poor missiles that regenerate. A "never do this" tag is essential in my eyes - even for some vanilla weapons. Trying to make weapons too multipurpose damages the spectrum of design that is possible.

Imho, I think that the vast majority of players are going to go "why the heck is that thing shooting at fighters?! Argh!" rather than "Why the heck is that thing *not* firing at fighters?! Argh!" If that makes sense.

795
General Discussion / Re: 0.9.1a Balance Testing Case Study: Condor
« on: July 12, 2020, 03:38:46 PM »
Just, generally in agreement with your analysis here as far as fighters - and it kind of has to be like that, because the decision to ignore fighters and go after the carrier is an extreme one - it's win or die, basically. The AI just can't make those sorts of decisions with a good-enough success rate. So fighters that can't be depleted by a similar-strength warship force are... more or less necessarily broken.

And, yeah, Elimintate is supposed to be how you fill in this gap as the player. Hmm. So when I take the "Custom" Medusa - the one with 2 AM Blasters - and run a simulation against the Condor with Talons and a Salamander Pod:

- No eliminate: it stalls until it clears the Talons, then moves in fo the kill
- With eliminate: it cruises right up to the Condor and wrecks it right away

To be fair, the actual difference in time-to-kill is something like 10-15 seconds, but the observable difference in behavior is very clear. My question is, is this due to some changes in the dev build, or is this not a representative scenario... I seem to remember teaking something related fairly recently-ish, but not seeing anything my my notes.

I think numbers are probably key here. I agree that there is a noticeable difference in behavior when issuing the command and in an isolated situation it can be enough. The ship will do a better job of closing and killing the carrier.

It's during a large fleet battle with multiple sources of distraction that I see this impact the command the most. Especially if multiple groups of fighters converge on the source of the eliminate command to support it (they usually do).

When running AI battles, the difference between me issuing an eliminate command on a nearby carrier (supported by fleet members or other carriers) and me personally taking over the ship and bull rushing the carrier is vast. If my ship got overwhelmed when I personally did this I would be ok with it, but, usually, I eliminate the carrier (and take some damage) then retreat to my allied lines for support. The AI typically does not do the same, and the battle is lost or stagnates.

It should be noted that I tend to have a lot of fighters fielded in both fleet compositions, so it is likely definitely a numbers thing that impacts this the most.

It would be nowhere near the issue it is right now if weapons could have target priority tags.
IGNORE_FIGHTERS is an obvious candidate for a new weapon tag, but by itself it would be a blunt solution. Combined with PRIORITIZE_LARGER and PRIORITIZE_SMALLER however, we would have a vastly superior set of options to fine tune the weapon behavior.

This is a good idea, and I'd actually be for all 3 to create even more weapon customization options. And while that alone would help immensely, I can't overstate enough that the backpedaling is detrimental in and of itself. Sometimes the ground gained from the time between attack runs is completely reversed or even surpassed when the next wave comes. If you have a very fast ship and a very slow carrier, maybe not as much, but otherwise under Eliminate at worst I think it should hold its ground or even still push forward. The idea is that carriers are very unlikely to win the flux war even if the opposing warship has built up hard flux from taking fighter damage due to the carrier's very limited number of weapons - so the warship retreating under fighter assaults hurts the overall strategy too much.

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