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16

Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering

« on: February 15, 2020, 09:29:02 AM »

It was your idea of the better way to handle things. It has little to do with the possibility of an ambush because it is decided before even getting onto the battle map. However your suggestion nicely illustrates why it is impractical to keep battleships and transports herded up together. In an attempt to get away from the smaller threat you made things much more vulnerable to the major one. Without resolving minor issues (frigates can still attack transports and destroy them using them as a cover and yes AI is smart enought to do exactly this).

The issue is- why the hell would they stay interspersed when fighting a larger force? that force cannot flank. they can sally ahead.

This tactic defends perfectly against small scale assaults, ie an ambush- You ambush would fail against this kind of formation. Weakness against a larger force isn't relevant, as this is an ambush of smaller units.

There is a reason why we don't have the warships in a big blob- to provide good fields of fire, in and around the ships they are protecting. In any case missiles don't care, they can just fly over friendly units and a fleet's worth of SRMs will kill ambushes.

Stop twisting what i'm saying. It's rude and it doesn't show respect for the statement.

17

Mods / Re: [0.9.1a] TC: Archean Order: Rebalanced Combat/Lore RPG - Lore update 1/20

« on: February 15, 2020, 04:08:19 AM »

Just ran a few battles.

This mod is pretty damn awesome. Was satisfied with the ship power scale up to cruisers, so I bought a paragon off the open market, kitted it with spinal atronarch beams, brought it to some fights I should have run from.

On paper the atronarch beam is a strike weapon which does great damage with each strike. The statline doesn't prepare you to see a single paragon with two science corp eagles smash and bash their way through the center of one of those huge pirate fleets with like 12 Atlas IIs. It doesn't prepare you to watch frigates disappear in a wave of explosions as you walk the beam across their bows. It doesn't prepare you to see cruisers and sometimes even cap ships go down in a single blast.

God that's epic. Of course the other weapons (I really like obliterators) pull their weight, but the quad beam of purple death is too much for anything, even bases.

Dosent need a nerf or anything. I still die if I get too trigger happy bc overload, this is just me ranting about how EPIC it looks.

18

Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering

« on: February 15, 2020, 01:44:43 AM »

They get in front? damn son what if the freighters stop moving (ie the very easily called out rally)- in any case this is no longer an ambush. This is simply forcing the transports into a battle in a poorly thought out way.

19

Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering

« on: February 14, 2020, 03:16:19 PM »

Yes, exactly, frigates are faster than anything even in a full bore pursuit. Any attempts to do something what is not a max speed retreat will help frigates even more for the reason that more complex maneuver requires more coordination and creates more delay and messing things up in general.

Go into tactical mode. Form your fleet with transports in a forward position, multiple battleships in the back.

Example 1. Command Full Retreat.

Example 2. Try to bring battleships in the position to screen the tranports.

First is much simpler and faster to execute.

Example 3. Trade battleships for frigates and repeat example 2. Feel the difference.

Simpler. Doesnt mean better. There are escort buttons. Select every ship except one, tell them to escort a single ship. Tell that ship to run like hell.

Retreat them all once they get near the end.

3 orders, hard to mess that up. Chain of command and easy communications makes it hard to mess up orders. In any case, what if i decide retreating isn't necessary? "all ships, move to area j11 and defend it." One order, and suddenly every ship, including caps, is ready to fend off frigates.

You've conceded that the caps will be part of these battles. Since they are, there's no need to run. Stand and fight, cowards!

20

Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering

« on: February 14, 2020, 12:30:06 PM »

When contact happened all further maneuvers are defined by the agility of the ships. Frigates do have the unique mobility advantage which allows them to deploy from the flanks in the particular type of battle. This is why they still have the upper hand even after fleet bubbles have merged (or whatever they do).

That's with the defending fleet running away full bore however. In pursuit mode, the defenders make no attempt to engage or interdict against a superior fleet and are easily flanked by forerunning frigates. That is the best way to use frigates in a fleet action. When frigates go against a superior fleet, the fleet's most logical option is to attempt to interdict and close, negating any flanking advantage the frigates might have had.

Frigates are great support vessels in situations where they have a fleet to back them up, since the main is the main threat which the defenders have to focus on. In an ambush, they don't, and the defending fleet is free to maneuver as they wish.

21

Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering

« on: February 14, 2020, 10:24:28 AM »

The question was about fast ships going around a defending fleet. Do you see the fleet of the fast ships in the back of defending fleet or did you not?

Irrelevant and proves nothing. Yes, faster fleets can maneuver around slower fleets. That does nothing to support your assertions that 1: Logistics ships would be in a vulnerable/uncovered position relative to their fleet's combat ships, or 2: that those faster ships could successfuly cut-off or isolate those logistics ships, and in doing so have enough time to accomplish anything before those combat ships could respond.
Further, it does nothing to address the fact that in the time it takes for the faster, attacking fleet to close, the defending/slower fleet can easily reorient its self to face the incoming threat, once again putting those combat ships between the attackers and the defenders' logistics ships.

I fail to see how players could be told "This weaker but faster enemy force has magically outmaneuvered your own; your logistics ships are isolated and under attack" in a way that's either satisfactory and/or allows for any agency on the player's part.

To remind you the history of the question. Inability of the fast ships to go around the slow ones was presented to me as a major argument. Before it was disproved it seemed pretty relevant and you didnt say a word against it.

But at least you dont attempt to deny reality. Good.

If you look at how ships in the bubble are moving you will notice that they always look alongside the course while their trajectory being a wavy line so what all ships shuffle their positions with time.

That means the possibility of any logistics ships to found themselves in a position closest to the border of the bubble.

And this is where the fast ships are supposed to attack.

Since they actually can go around the defending fleet, they also fully capable of picking exactly that location.

While defender can do nothing about that because all its ships are stuck on the single course. Ordering one group of ships to change it means detaching them from the main fleet.

And that's impossible. Sad also.

You misunderstand my argument.

you CANT make an attack run AND go around the fleet. The fleet is not separated in any way, even under drive since you seem to have dropped the individual drive bubble *** they are now in one fleet, burning in concert. You say turning occurs on the interstellar scale, which makes sense. Thing is, any ambushers can also be detected on the same scale. In between the fact that large fleets will have some pretty nifty sensor power and that in order to strike past the warships in the drive bubble the frigate fleet has to be large and under sustained/E burn, there's more than enough time to consolidate.

(tbh individual drive is still possible, it could be that tugs simply dock themselves to the slower ships and add their drives to those ship's burn speed)

There's also nothing stopping the combat ships from slowing down a little and thus shuffling towards the back. They don't need to fight their own velocity as they aren't maneuvering with a "stationary" object as a point of reference. With velocity relative to a chasing fleet, one could say the enemy fleet is closing in at burn level 2 or 3. All it would take to shuffle would be to slow the warships down a burn level for a couple of seconds, letting the logistics ships speed ahead while keeping the fleet in one piece, then resuming full speed and stabilizing. Once combat was entered the logistics ships could just speed off while the warships in the back fight. IE pursuit but the big fleet is running

You seem to be confusing strategic maneuvering with creating an open attack vector. You have strategically maneuvered yourself behind the fleet, sure. You have not created a gap in the escort pattern, as if you made an attack run right then, it wouldn't be a stretch for a cap ship to move the 5 kilometers back while you are burning in, let alone the destroyers and cruisers. You have a 1-2 point burn advantage. Strategic mobility isn't a factor in space combat unless you have strategic level weapons (IE some sort of interstellar cruise missile or very long ranged railguns).

22

Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering

« on: February 14, 2020, 10:10:14 AM »

The question was about fast ships going around a defending fleet. Do you see the fleet of the fast ships in the back of defending fleet or did you not?

Irrelevant and proves nothing. Yes, faster fleets can maneuver around slower fleets. That does nothing to support your assertions that 1: Logistics ships would be in a vulnerable/uncovered position relative to their fleet's combat ships, or 2: that those faster ships could successfuly cut-off or isolate those logistics ships, and in doing so have enough time to accomplish anything before those combat ships could respond.
Further, it does nothing to address the fact that in the time it takes for the faster, attacking fleet to close, the defending/slower fleet can easily reorient its self to face the incoming threat, once again putting those combat ships between the attackers and the defenders' logistics ships.

I fail to see how players could be told "This weaker but faster enemy force has magically outmaneuvered your own; your logistics ships are isolated and under attack" in a way that's either satisfactory and/or allows for any agency on the player's part.

To remind you the history of the question. Inability of the fast ships to go around the slow ones was presented to me as a major argument. Before it was disproved it seemed pretty relevant and you didnt say a word against it.

But at least you dont attempt to deny reality. Good.

If you look at how ships in the bubble are moving you will notice that they always look alongside the course while their trajectory being a wavy line so what all ships shuffle their positions with time.

That means the possibility of any logistics ships to found themselves in a position closest to the border of the bubble.

And this is where the fast ships are supposed to attack.

Since they actually can go around the defending fleet, they also fully capable of picking exactly that location.

While defender can do nothing about that because all its ships are stuck on the single course. Ordering one group of ships to change it means detaching them from the main fleet.

And that's impossible. Sad also.

You misunderstand my argument.

you CANT make an attack run AND go around the fleet. The fleet is not separated in any way, even under drive since you seem to have dropped the individual drive bubble *** they are now in one fleet, burning in concert. You say turning occurs on the interstellar scale, which makes sense. Thing is, any ambushers can also be detected on the same scale. In between the fact that large fleets will have some pretty nifty sensor power and that in order to strike past the warships in the drive bubble the frigate fleet has to be large and under sustained/E burn, there's more than enough time to consolidate.

(tbh individual drive is still possible, it could be that tugs simply dock themselves to the slower ships and add their drives to those ship's burn speed)

There's also nothing stopping the combat ships from slowing down a little and thus shuffling towards the back. They don't need to fight their own velocity as they aren't maneuvering with a "stationary" object as a point of reference. With velocity relative to a chasing fleet, one could say the enemy fleet is closing in at burn level 2 or 3. All it would take to shuffle would be to slow the warships down a burn level for a couple of seconds, letting the logistics ships speed ahead while keeping the fleet in one piece, then resuming full speed and stabilizing. Once combat was entered the logistics ships could just speed off while the warships in the back fight. IE pursuit but the big fleet is running
 

23

Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering

« on: February 14, 2020, 07:20:55 AM »

Further, it does nothing to address the fact that in the time it takes for the faster, attacking fleet to close, the defending/slower fleet can easily reorient its self to face the incoming threat, once again putting those combat ships between the attackers and the defenders' logistics ships.

Geometry!

24

Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering

« on: February 13, 2020, 10:46:34 PM »

I edited my earlier comment to show why your example from the Battle of Tsushima was irrelevant.

What if I click on the enemy ships? suddenly my battlegroup is bearing down on the enemy. E-Burn? I still stay facing towards them. They cannot get behind me. While in interstellar space, all ships in starsector turn at the same speed.

You can't get behind a player. All they need is to click on you, and viola, they have their battleline on you.

You clearly dont even know what Battle of Tsushima is.

That fleet in the picture did have all the options without any real downsides. Like me luring it into the nebula or into the Remnant patrol. Or both. And I dont need to get behind a player since there is no multiplayer in the game.

And therin we see the issue with your ambush mechanic. There arent any real downsides. Besides which, the logic is, any competent commander, (ie an ai that know whats it's doing) will turn and fight rather than let you into whatever line you've hit.
You seem to want this feature so you can abuse the AI with it.

The battle of Tsushima, Admiral Togo v. Rozhestvensky?
27 May 1905?
the "dying echo of an old era"?

There are real downsides. Because you are on the clock. It is not that the rest of the fleet is cut off for the whole battle. Its only delayed according to ship's speed.

Yes. 1905. Not the "First World War example" when both sides (Russia and Japan) were allied and it was 1914-1918. And none of the:

"the cruisers didn't have the detection range available our fleets. At the same time, what they fought would be described as a standard pursuit battle in starsector. None of that Cruisers running to save the logistics ***. The fleet was arrayed properly and struck in a nighttime assault impossible in space, by 58 vessels, 21 of them destroyers. They faced off against the Russian battleships escorted by cruisers. There was no scramble to get to the logistics ships. There was no fast gun battle- the attackers pretty much shoved torpedoes at the Russians until they ran away."

Has anything to do with the battle in question. Actually, I have no idea that you are describing. I mean I've read all the post-battle reports from both sides but there is nothing of this in them.

Ah. WW1 era tech plateau was what i was mentioning. Doesn't really change anything about fleet doctrine, tactics, detection radii, etc. Really just smaller ships with smaller guns. My bad, really meant to say technology level.
Give me your documents.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/battle-tsushima-when-japan-russias-most-fearsome-battleships-20896
https://www.mhistory.net/battle-of-tsushima-the-birth-of-japans-naval-power/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tsushima
https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Tsushima
+general lectures and ***.

25

Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering

« on: February 13, 2020, 10:05:37 PM »

I edited my earlier comment to show why your example from the Battle of Tsushima was irrelevant.

What if I click on the enemy ships? suddenly my battlegroup is bearing down on the enemy. E-Burn? I still stay facing towards them. They cannot get behind me. While in interstellar space, all ships in starsector turn at the same speed.

You can't get behind a player. All they need is to click on you, and viola, they have their battleline on you.

You clearly dont even know what Battle of Tsushima is.

That fleet in the picture did have all the options without any real downsides. Like me luring it into the nebula or into the Remnant patrol. Or both. And I dont need to get behind a player since there is no multiplayer in the game.

And therin we see the issue with your ambush mechanic. There arent any real downsides. Besides which, the logic is, any competent commander, (ie an ai that know whats it's doing) will turn and fight rather than let you into whatever line you've hit.
You seem to want this feature so you can abuse the AI with it.

The battle of Tsushima, Admiral Togo v. Rozhestvensky?
27 May 1905?
the "dying echo of an old era"?

26

Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering

« on: February 13, 2020, 09:47:05 PM »

Good. I didnt bother to face anything but the back of the fleet. Because you stated that it is not possible. If needed I can pick any other direction and force the enemy fleet to randomly shuffle its ships. This all together shows clearly that the attacker is in control of the situation while defender is not. And this is why the attacker can have the ambush option.

I do have control of that situation. I would have you know, that having forced you to back off and change direction, I could start driving on my merry way to the jump point and laugh as your fleet desperately tries to change attack vector whist keeping up. At best, a frigate fleet has 2-4 levels of burn on me. Most of the time they have nothing due to me judiciously using Augmented Burn Drives.

Besides which, you were running into those cruisers as part of a random formation. Coming from any other direction would most likely run into something worse of similar, and since all the ships are bouncing in the formation you can't pick and choose

Any fleet that runs into me, I chose to run into. Disrupted? Screw running, about face. While it's coming off cooldown I can click on your fleet and turn around. If you wish, I will record a clip of that.

27

Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering

« on: February 13, 2020, 09:43:30 PM »

I edited my earlier comment to show why your example from the Battle of Tsushima was irrelevant.

What if I click on the enemy ships? suddenly my battlegroup is bearing down on the enemy. E-Burn? I still stay facing towards them. They cannot get behind me. While in interstellar space, all ships in starsector turn at the same speed.

You can't get behind a player. All they need is to click on you, and viola, they have their battleline on you.

28

Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering

« on: February 13, 2020, 09:26:22 PM »

You have not? I am not sure what you think that image you linked shows but it does not show a fleet of frigates with the enemy logistics between it and the enemy battleships.

Do you see how the lack of a “fleet order” means that logistics ships cant be “last”?

That image shows that fast ships can simply go around a defending fleet. Before that it was stated that they can not.

Not the "last" but "vulnerable to attack from outside".

They can go around. In your image, you were facing off with a duo of cruisers in the rear line. You legit went around and hit a cruiser formation.
This is "flanking the fleet" to you. You have gone behind the fleet only to run into the rear guard. Your ambush strikes, hard and fast, only to break against the rock that is two cruisers.

You made no such flank, that picture is a brilliant example of covering your own logistics- You want to pull from the game? If I was commanding that fleet, I could click on your fleet and turn around, since any smart commander will have noticed your lurking sensor blip on their scopes, even if your flanking fleet was frigates.

Your argument that I cannot affect my own fleet layout is valid but irrelevant. While I cannot directly affect my own fleet posture, all one has to do is look at the fleet in the campaign screen and notice that they have, all of their own volition, formed a mutually defensive sphere. All of my tactics and maneuver explanation was simply to tell you how easily a fleet could enter the standard engagement instead of your "ambush".

In your First World War example, the cruisers didn't have the detection range available our fleets. At the same time, what they fought would be described as a standard pursuit battle in starsector. None of that Cruisers running to save the logistics ***. The fleet was arrayed properly and struck in a nighttime assault impossible in space, by 58 vessels, 21 of them destroyers. They faced off against the Russian battleships escorted by cruisers. There was no scramble to get to the logistics ships. There was no fast gun battle- the attackers pretty much shoved torpedoes at the Russians until they ran away.

Besides, if you wanted to use that as an example, i'd like to point out your fanciful thinking. You sir, are now skipping over the facts from real life battles not even in remotely the same circumstances. The Russians had no detection or targeting, something Starsector fleets would have had in abundance. Hell, the Japanese only got hits because the Russians were trying to use spotlights to find the small craft. In daylight circumstances, your example battle would have gone much differently. Ships of the line of the day were meant to close in and blast with fast-firing secondaries, also effective against small craft. With daylight facilitating proper communications and  maneuvering options, the Russians should have been able to give the Japanese a hell of a time. 

29

Suggestions / Re: Ambush Bickering

« on: February 13, 2020, 06:28:45 PM »

I do yes. Both for chasing retreating fleets and to support the main fleets. Though i tend to go away from the lower value frigates and hold to things like minotors, omens, and tempests for non-chase work.

Yup- Frigates are great for interdiction, shove some salamanders on and or use them as cheap missile boats. The good frigates I use as fast attack and suppression.

30

General Discussion / Re: How Much is a Credit Worth?

« on: February 13, 2020, 01:25:53 PM »

The question now is how exactly do credits keep their value?

Not very well. a player can actually pull credits out of CPUs that didn't " blow up quite enough " after a battle.

Makes you wonder how many millions of credits have been lost to this.