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Messages - Kipcha

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General Discussion / Re: About tariffs, and what they translate into.
« on: October 26, 2014, 12:06:31 PM »

I Just used it since i had data on hand as i was watching them for the past few in-game weeks out of curiosity.

The point being made is that the original poster wants it to be -possible- to make a profit without events or reputation hits, and has used supplies as a convenient example of the maths as to why it isn't.

This was much of my point here.
Non-Alert combat is still profitable, while Non-Alert Trading is currently almost impossible to turn a profit. (Working as intended according to Alex)

Getting the point across as regular merchant, I suppose. Still, trade disruption is considered an event, right? Or probably the usual economy when there's pirates making the area in need blockaded.

Yes, Trade disruption is an event if you are talking about the icon on the UI that raises prices by a considerable margin.

General Discussion / Re: Economics glitch (and tariffs are OP)
« on: October 26, 2014, 04:24:02 AM »
I've made 200k credits in a single hound, thanks to a specific smuggling route I found.

And youre not sharing because?

Other than that, ignore what should be a trade run, and focus on events.
Which has been discussed at length in this thread, it is not about how events make money it is about how to make money outside of events and that Trading in a non-event scenario makes little to no margin of profit than combat in a non-event scenario.

All things being balanced Combat and Trading should* offer roughly similar Credits/Time while Events (of both Combat and Trade) should offer more income than their Non-Event partners.

*this is my personal view, and as Alex has dropped by one of these threads to comment on the state of affairs it appears his vision was to make trade ONLY profitable during events. Since the argue of Credit per hour income is a moot point in a single-player game.

General Discussion / Re: Befriending pirates
« on: October 26, 2014, 02:39:14 AM »
Currently the only ways to increase rep are:
Trades (Though you should be getting higher than +1 if you trade enough in value)
Attacking hostile factions.
Trading large ammounts of food during a famine.

Discussions / Re: Rate the above posters Song/Music!
« on: October 26, 2014, 02:35:40 AM »
7/10 sounds like modern 'rock', (though i know the show by reputation and that its quite old)

not sure how to embed.

(was gonna link Lazerhawk-The Fixx. but i chose something lighter :)  )

Suggestions / Re: Ship Roles StarSector Still Lacks
« on: October 26, 2014, 02:29:02 AM »
you don't really want to employ fighters against small fleets. Fighters are typically at best no cheaper than frigates to deploy, and probably cost more once you factor in losses, so for hunting fast fleets I'd rather be using frigates.
Thats a shame. I really want to keep my fast fleet, i got tired of running naught but lashers with the odd wolf and vindicator thrown in.

Now though with 0.65's nerf to lashers shield (you can no longer hullmod it to have a 360* shield) ive mostly been sticking to Wolves, Might pick up a vindicator soon for the Pilum LRM support.

was just looking to diversify fleets a little including getting some anti-fighter fighters.

question are there any good missile carrier cruisers/destroyers? something i could stack with Pilum LRM's for long range support?

Fan Media & Fiction / Re: The Lore Corner
« on: October 26, 2014, 02:15:51 AM »
Okay, this one thing is bothering me: On the decivilized world of Maxios... who's collecting the tariffs?

Docking "authority"

To me Maxios seemed like an example of an anarchistic 'government' where the ownership of an item is how hard you can hold on to it. (which would see megacorporations rise to power very easy, should they actually have an interested in a barren world with little to no economic import)

General Discussion / Re: About tariffs, and what they translate into.
« on: October 26, 2014, 01:34:47 AM »
Why did you not calculate the black market rates? It is the point of the quote you're addressing.
Except i did, at a 50/50 rate in order to avoid the negative rep. Because someone theorized that splitting the trade in order to offset the black-market reputation hit. however i wasnt sure what the actual ratio you needed was so i went with 50/50.

But to humor you here we go. Supplies as always because i have that data on hand.
1x Cerberus
Buy Supplies at 20/Unit.
Sell 30 supplies at (50,49,48...ect) resulting in 465 Credits.

Include cost of a single cerberus from Corvus to Magec at 440 Credits.

Thats a grand total of 25 credits profit.
compare that to my calculations on page 1 of doing a 50/50 split you actually make 180% additional profit (to 70 creds), in fact looking into this 50/50 is the most efficient split.

I'm not quite sure that actually happens in the game yet. According to this post:

It most certainly doesn't. Price adjustments as far as I know are not instantaneous like it is in some other games. The game requires time for the market to account for how much the traders have brought in over a set period of time. I think Alex pointed out in that thread it won't be as safe to dump all that food on the world in one big transaction, but it mostly seems to be limited to food shortages.
Price changes are instantaneous for non alert goods as far as i know. I havent looked at alert goods yet.
If you go to a station to sell 1 item at 114 credits. and you shift click to stack two together the total price is not 228 but in fact 227.

Yes it is sometimes more profitable to do bounties, although these too sometimes dry up, but I think the main difference is that there's no real danger to doing trade runs nor is there a test of player skill. In your traditional trading archtype system, it's usually little better than a cookie clicker in terms of actual gameplay.
please read what i said again
In terms of most to least profitable;
Alert Trading.
Alert Combat
Non-Alert Combat
Non-Alert Trading.

Even if Combat Alerts dry up. Non-Alert combat is still vastly more profitable than non-alert trading.
The ONLY time it is not more profitable to do bounties is when you have a food shortage aka "Alert Trading"

Curiously, the construction of markets can be quite easily procedural. 30%? With a procedural system,  that Alex is moving towards and also the fact that tarrifs are a mutable stat, I wouldn't be surprised to see variable market tarrifs across the different star systems, and to vary based upon faction relationship.
Being able to change the tariff with reputation or a skill would be very nice and would possibly make trading more useful. That said if the current system is totally procedural in a few in-game years (so long as the AI is charged tariff and doesnt have infinite money)the economy would actually balance out and allow player trade to actually work.

As it stands now there is just no room for trading, either the production/consumption rates are too low, or the AI is too omnipotent.

General Discussion / Re: About tariffs, and what they translate into.
« on: October 25, 2014, 09:21:43 PM »
For now, I'd suggest doing a more hybrid approach, doing some bounties to keep you busy. A pure trading fleet is going to be a bit problematic.

At that point why bother going hybrid at all? unless you just mean "do events, then kill pirates while you wait for the next event" because otherwise its just plain more profitable to go doing bounties, its more profitable to kill pirates without bounties than it is to trade without alerts.

General Discussion / Re: Economics glitch (and tariffs are OP)
« on: October 25, 2014, 09:10:24 PM »
Trading food gives you a 400% profit margin consistently! Why are we worried about a measly 30% tax?

First of all, its not consistent since it depends solely on events. Try trading food without an event.
Its not a simple 30% tax its actually a 66.6%.
The math has been explained in this thread for non-event trading a couple of times.

I was asking about how to get out of vengeful status though, not hostile
No way to get out of vengeful at the moment. (aside from starting a new character)

I have to say - I don't agree with people who are saying you wait around for events. First of all, there are events happening all the time (and I do mean every moment - never have I seen no events).  Second of all, I played as a trader and found even non event runs to be just fine. You just have to be on your toes - finish your run and plan a new one.
Do you have any actual info on those runs? because i have every space-station between Corvus, Valhalla/Ragnar, Arcadia and Magec recorded and have yet to find any actual profitable run. i have been over the math in this thread
here. You are either making very slim margins if you find a resource that is selling without the very aggressive diminishing prices, or no profit at all.

A key example here would be: Arcadia>Agreus station. The station has OreRefinery(2) Which you would think this station consumes Ore and R-Ore while producing Metal and R-Metals. (By the tool tip for "Ore Refinery" and the market page). when this station drops to 50%+ not supplied for ore and rare ore the nearest Ore Mining facility is Magec>New Maxios.

This run should* be profitable so long as % supply is met and not met at the required planets however it is not due to the highly agressive diminishing returns and the 66.6% tariff.

If the margins are too slim for what you want, then buy/sell on the black market. The penalties are really small and even the occasional investigation isn't too bad - just manage your reputation if it gets low and avoid *** that faction off for a bit.
for black market;
there is a decent breakdown of how the black market effects when using a 50/50 split.
not to mention simply avoiding a faction does not improve your standing with them you either have to go out and kill pirates or trade wholly on the open market.

@ Kipcha:  Cerberus is not very good at fighting (big ships or whole fleets) without serious optimization, and I dislike ships with no defense system (i.e., shields or phase cloak) because there is much less margin for error.  Cerberus also has burn 6 which, while not too slow, is slower than the Wolf pack I use.  I rather optimize a ship I enjoy piloting.  Also, I do not fight merely frigates, I fight everything.

Define "serious optimization"
if its just a cargo *** you dont need to optimize it, hell you dont even need to arm it, just throw augmented engines on it.
As for the burn speed, Yes it will be 1 burns speed slower, while at the same time would actually be 1 burn speed faster than the medusa you plan to get.
It does have shields (see the build)
And yes, i know everyone fights everything too not just frigates. Ive put several fleets down featuring hammerheads and/or Sunders with just myself in the Cerberus + Lasher. which is a significant downgrade to a wolf.

it was simply an answer to your problem of needing more speedy cargo space that is easily available though if you have your heart set on hounds then youll just have to keep chipping away checking the military markets.

General Discussion / Re: Economics glitch (and tariffs are OP)
« on: October 25, 2014, 10:09:52 AM »
The main problem is caused by having easily repeatable trade runs, so let’s just take care of it at that level. The economy will work in such a way as to make most (if not all) trade runs unprofitable by default.

It's from blog post:

my issue with that is just that it makes things equally (if not more so) boring. Because now i just sit outside of my nice bunker station waiting for alerts. occasionally checking intel for if i need to go out and get more bargain food.

General Discussion / Re: About tariffs, and what they translate into.
« on: October 25, 2014, 10:06:29 AM »
The tooltips on price icons in the Intel map gives the demand, though I haven't tested to see whether the value accurately reflects how much you can sell before the margin drops.

and thats where i need more data atm.

After selling 1 item and seeing the price drop by a credit for each unit to a station that had "75% not met" i eventually gave up roaming the stars looking for some kind of sense. i do have a huge google docs sheet from it though. Farming alerts is the best way to earn money.

Also the fact that the Intel map doesnt update with prices you have just been looking at not 3 seconds again is painful.

skill tree,
So yeah I'll be awaiting either a modder or a patch to fix trading before I do it anymore after realizing I had to be a smuggler to make anything (outside of events).

Skill tree: industrial maybe, i was thinking Green skill tree for "logistical" as the green tree also includes using larger fleets which works well with the whole "build a trading fleet" idea.

As for modding/patching, check OP apparently setting tariff to 12% (which is amusingly close to the import tax where i live) is much more manageable.

I've never put Augmented Engines on a frigate.
whassa matta? scared of goin fast? :P

General Discussion / Re: About tariffs, and what they translate into.
« on: October 25, 2014, 09:51:27 AM »
Trading on the black market doesn't give you a giant reputation hit. The most I got from doing it was up to -4 rep, which you can easily gain back by trading on the open market. You can also avoid it entirely by trading some stuff on the open market while you trade stuff on the black market.

But how many times did you get that -4 rep?
As for "trading some stuff on the open market" again youre encountering the tariff.
I would like to know what a good ratio of black market to open market trade is in order to see if its actually economically viable.

Well yes, but this is only if nothing is done to counteract the reputation hit. For the most part, I think the tariffs are just a reflection of each planet trying to protect their local industries against vulturistic middlemen as well as competitive logistics industry in place that put the squeeze on the prices
Indeed but the question comes down to "is it viable" i dont know what ratio you would need.

Lets take some data i allready have then.
Buy: 200 units of Supplies. 20 Credits a unit. 100 via Open market(@26/unit), 100 via black market(@20/unit).

Total price: 4600.
Two Cerberus Frigates from Corvus to Magec: 880 Credits. (Supplies and fuel)

Sell 200 Units of Supplies, 50 Credits a unit. 100 via Open market(@35/Unit), 100 via black market(@50/Unit)
Total Price: 8500

Minus shipping cost; 7620.
Not bad right?
Its actually just right when your average bounty against 4 ships would payout 5100-9000 depending on the bounty value and salvage value.

However, not all is right in mathland here.
Often these things change price as you buy them. Selling goes down by 1 credit per unit(for some weird and *** up reason) on both markets.

Lets look at that again then.
Selling supplies at:
35/unit: you get 9 units sold (35, 34, 33, 32, 31, 30, 29, 28, 27) till you hit 0 profit margin resulting in 45 credits.
50/unit: you get 30 units sold (50, 49, 48, 47.... ect ect) till you hit 0 margin resulting in 465 credits.
Our total sold here would make us 510 Credits.

Minus our shipping cost..
Net Profit -370
Being generous we could fit all 39 units onto a single Cerberus bringing our shipping cost down to 440.

Net Profit: 70 Credits....

General Discussion / Re: Economics glitch (and tariffs are OP)
« on: October 25, 2014, 09:30:21 AM »
Just check whats high/low on the price map
The only time you actually make any profit is where there is trade embargo or famine. considering your goods price has to be able to take TWO 30% taxes. on a single unit of Supplies at 20 credits (around the lowest ive seen) thats 26 credits cost to you per unit. Then you take that to sell for '50' credits (highest non-alert price ive seen recently) Theyre actually paying you 35 credits per unit. you make a total of 9 credits profit. A run from Corvus to Magec runs me 880 credits in supplies and fuel for two Cerberus freighters, Max cargo load of 200 Resulting in a whopping 920 credit profit.

This does not take into account the diminishing price as i said before the price on most goods is only correct for the first unit, from there it starts going down pretty steep. even at 1 per unit;
200 Units of Supplies bought at 26 Credits each.
Units sold for; 35, 34, 33, 32, 31, 30, 29, 28, 27... Thats a grand total of 45 credits of profit trading 9 Units. Minus your 880 credit travel fee. lets say you half that because for 9 units you would only need a single Cerberus. Thats 440 credit travel fee.

Leaving us, after meticulous planning; -395 GGWPNORE

There shouldn't be large, profitable trade routes/triangles.
Well first of all, there should be static trade routes. simply by how supply and demand works, unless you introduce stations being destroyed. now you can add as many loops in as you want, make it a "static trade dodecahedron" if you fancy. The trick is to keep things interesting, leave options open. With this comes information. Each station should be either a) near production station or b) have its own production, meaning that you can go from Mine-Refine-Produce-Consume or even just Mine-refine-Mine-refine. depending on how the economy is looking and where the AI is.  You should be able to go "well i could take X resource from here to there, or Y resource" and see what nets more money. Those values will change in an evolving economy, Perhaps you cant take the more profitable Y route because its a pirate base, then you settle for the X route. or perhaps the Y route has no ore available so you take the X route.

There is a lot more that could be done, saying that "trading station to station is not fun"

As it stands now either the Ai is ruthlessly effecient and willing to stay in one system and accept 1 credit margins shuttling goods from one station to another within a star or the AI has infinite money / GM fiat.

One thing I've gathered from Alex's blog posts is that he wants the game to be fun and one of the ways he does this is by completely removing elements that give in game benefits for unfun behavior. He considers static trade routes to be be this (I disagree a bit - I had great fun in OOlite finding them and mercilessly driving up profits), or at least that they don't fit in with the "after the end" tone of the game.

Which in removing these "static trade routes" has implimented a system where trading is resorted to "wait for an event, run the 'temporary trade route' as many times as you can.
I just don't think  an economy that you want would be that fun after a while. I really don't want to have to grind.
Actually all i want are lower tarriffs and less effecient AI merchants so there is an actual decent way to trade rather than "wait for an alert"
As for "i dont want to grind"
Its about options, you can go out and grind frigates, you can go out and grind buffalo, you can go out and grind trade lanes, some of us have fun with our economnomnomics.

Its about providing more options for making money rather than forcing people into one or two ways to grind.

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