If you want to check for yourself, use the console and SS+ to get a fleet of 5 to 10 archers with pillums and ECCM. Nothing can stand against them.
...
I think the issue isn't so much that missiles are overpowered as much as AI can't deal with missiles properly.
...
Pilums are so slow - both in flight and refire rate - that I don't even bother using them at all; I use harpoons instead.They are now. But they got a severe speed nerf, at which point I swapped to Harpoons too.
I haven't tested it, but an Enforcer with two or three double flak ought to be able to destroy just about any number of Pilums.A pair of double flaks will absolutely eat any amount of pilums (or almost any missile really) pretty much as long as they have free power.
As a way to nerf missiles a little, maybe they can collide with each other? That way complete missile spam would be slightly disincentivized.Then you'd have to make sure each missile in a volley fired from the same launcher (maybe the same ship) never crosses paths with any other - self negating ordnance would be just about the most obnoxiously irritating thing ever.
...like those who are pinned by overwhelming firepower from your Dominator or Onslaught
If you're in a position to pin something with 'overwhelming firepower', then you don't need to fire missiles at it as well - it's already probably half dead (and shortly fully dead), and those missiles have an opportunity cost that might bite you later.Not always. Sometimes, my ballistics simply raise flux, and then the Pilum swarm that was a second away from impact, does its job by turning a destroyer or cruiser from full health to low health or dead in an instant. Pilums can speed things up in a long battle, when time is valuable.
I'm thinking right now that 250 for Pilums was too high, but 125 is too slow. 125 means a Vigilance can outrun its own Pilums even without the 0-flux speed boost.
If you want to check for yourself, use the console and SS+ to get a fleet of 5 to 10 archers with pillums and ECCM. Nothing can stand against them.Specialized missile ships should be compared against specialized PD ships. Paragon with Guardian PD and a pile of PD lasers? Astral with a horde of fighters? As other people have commented, Enforcers with flak guns?
And if both sides have them it's a Honnor Harrington's level of destruction in the first salvo, with maybe a couple of survivors and no way to counter it.
Well when my mod is finally released (need the new features and plenty of time to add content so it may be a while lol) there will be missile specialized ships that can only equip missiles. But that's because I have changed missiles to be more versatile and work differently than Vanilla and the variants and weapons are much better at dealing with them en masse.
They are now sort of like a 3rd weapon option along with ballistic and energy weapons. They have their strengths and drawbacks.
Err no? It should be compared against average ships of the same class.
One on one performance is a very, very poor way of determining balance between two things, especially when at least one of those things is intended to be used en mass rather than singly or as a small component of the fleet. If you're going to introduce ships with an armament which consists primarily of missiles, you need to worry about what a fleet of those ships can do to an 'average' opposing fleet, not just about what one of those ships can do to a single opponent. A single missile ship tends not to be all that scary, unless we're talking about the arsenal Onslaught or something like that. Get a bunch of them together, though, and it becomes a much different story.Err no? It should be compared against average ships of the same class.
Still, they should be compared on a one against one basis. If we do, there are a bunch of destroyers (and frigates even if flown well) that can deal with the Archer quite nicely without being gimped with a specific counter-fit.
They do scale better than most destroyers once you increase their numbers though, as they don't block each others attack vectors like brawlers do.
One on one performance is a very, very poor way of determining balance between two things, especially when at least one of those things is intended to be used en mass rather than singly or as a small component of the fleet.
Err no? It should be compared against average ships of the same class. A ship able to kill any ships that don't have a loadout specifically tuned to counter it is the definition of overpowered. And even if you do find a loadout that can survive your missile ship, if it can't counter attack it's useless.Specialists will generally overpower generalists if they're allowed to stay in their specialization. Otherwise, specializing would have no rewards. If you're mounting(or a hull is such that it's only possible to mount) only long-range missiles and hull mods that buff them, then by all rights you should overpower a fleet that doesn't have a counter to that. The danger is that a fleet that does have counters available to it will wipe the floor with you. A missile heavy fleet pays for the better range of missiles in that if its opponent has sufficient PD coverage, the missile fleet's firepower is neutered.
Maybe bombers could kill them because missiles do not target strike craft.
I think that the game could handle a missile ship. For example, the missile ship could have lots of missiles and good PD but pretty much no other weapons or weak shields/armor, so if you get in close range to it you can kill it no problem. So long as you dodge or shoot down its missiles you could get into close range. But what if they have lots of missile ships so they have too many missiles to handle? Maybe bombers could kill them because missiles do not target strike craft.
Got me thinking: Because missiles are 0 flux weapons, any ship that uses them as primary armament should have absolute crap for flux statistics to be balanced.That motivated me for trying an all Atropos configuration on the Mercury a year or so ago, before 0.65. If I do not have enough OP to turn the Mercury into a IR Pulse Laser gunship, and I will run out of ammo for ballistics, I might as well use missiles, and Atropos Mercury was cheap but effective flagship. Required max Missile Specialization (for Atropos to be fast enough) to work, but it killed a few ships quickly for only 0.5 Logistics and 3 FP - not bad for a cheap, disposable ship.
Maybe bombers could kill them because missiles do not target strike craft.
Missiles target fighters.
I've been playing around with pilum stats for a few days now, just to see if I could find a something that felt right to me. After 15 or 20 minor alterations I've ended up with this...
In weapon_data.csv
Damage: 450
Projectile Speed: 250 (hurricane MIRV main missile speed)
Launch Speed: 50
Flight time: 25
Hit Points: 120
In type_1_lrm.proj
turnAcc: 15
turnRate: 30
acc: 70
dec:60
Every other stat remains the same (granted that changed most of them)
These pilums are faster, less accurate, slightly lower dps, don't clump up so horribly, and work great for long range support ships. It gives them a presence on the field right off the bat.
They usually only get 1 or 2 chances to hit an enemy ship instead of following them around like ducklings, and can no longer be effectively used at assault ranges (unless you aim really really well).
They are a credible threat to any size ship, but can be easily dodged by a frigate, can be evaded by most destroyers, and fast cruisers can sometimes scooch out of the way.
I find these stats for pilums highly appealing, both for my ships and the ones I fight against.
What's your logic for the 10% reduction in damage and 4% reduction in health?
I feel 25 flight time is too short. Combined with the low acceleration, max range is 6000 or less.
Well when my mod is finally released (need the new features and plenty of time to add content so it may be a while lol) there will be missile specialized ships that can only equip missiles. But that's because I have changed missiles to be more versatile and work differently than Vanilla and the variants and weapons are much better at dealing with them en masse.
They are now sort of like a 3rd weapon option along with ballistic and energy weapons. They have their strengths and drawbacks.
I'm intrigued, mod link?