Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Announcements => Topic started by: Alex on April 05, 2015, 04:38:55 PM

Title: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 05, 2015, 04:38:55 PM
Blog post/download links here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2015/11/19/starsector-0-7a-release/).

Hotfix - 0.7a-RC10, November 20, 2015

Bugfixing


Changes as of November 17, 2015

Campaign

Combat


Changes as of November 03, 2015

Campaign

Combat

Miscellaneous

Modding:



Changes as of October 19, 2015

Campaign

Combat

Miscellaneous


Modding
CampaignPlugin.pickBattleAutoresolverPlugin() changed to take BattleAPI as a parameter instead of two fleets


Bugfixing



Changes as of June 23, 2015

Campaign:
Player can pick one of two skills to gain/increase on each levelup

Combat balance:

Ship AI:
As will AI manual targeting

Combat:

Miscellaneous:

Modding:

Bugfixing:



Changes as of April 05, 2015

Campaign:

Combat balance:

Ship AI/orders:

Miscellaneous:

Modding:

Bugfixing:
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xanderzoo on April 05, 2015, 04:45:00 PM
!!Five new star systems!! Yay!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 05, 2015, 06:33:51 PM
What about EXP gained from trade? Will officers get a portion of that as well? If I have 10 officers will each get 9% of the earned EXP?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 05, 2015, 06:34:49 PM
What about EXP gained from trade? Will officers get a portion of that as well? If I have 10 officers will each get 9% of the earned EXP?

No, combat officers don't get any of that. As combat officers, they only gain experience from combat.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 05, 2015, 06:53:29 PM
Will we be able to adjust how much they take from the total amount of combat experience? (IE I could set it so that they can take 10% to 100% from the "pool" of exp) This would be useful all the way through the game.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 05, 2015, 07:29:27 PM
Hmm - that kind of sounds like an odd thing to expose to the player.

They don't affect player XP gains, anyway. It *is* currently split between participating officers, though, depending on ... factors.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Aeson on April 05, 2015, 10:10:27 PM
Will we be able to adjust how much they take from the total amount of combat experience? (IE I could set it so that they can take 10% to 100% from the "pool" of exp) This would be useful all the way through the game.
I agree with Alex that this seems like an odd thing to let the player do directly. However, given that the experience is stated to be dependent on time spent in combat, I'd think that you can fudge it to some degree. E.g. a battle is worth 100 experience and you deploy 3 officers A, B, and C; A is deployed for the whole battle, B is deployed as reinforcements after a quarter of the battle has passed, and C was in the initial wave but retreated after half the battle passed. Experience might then be divided up as A gets (100 experience)*1/(1 + 0.75 + 0.5), B gets (100 experience)*0.75/(1 + 0.75 + 0.5), and C gets (100 experience)*0.5/(1 + 0.75 + 0.5).

A question of my own on the experience split: Is the experience split going to be something along the lines of (battle experience)*(this officer's time deployed)/(total deployment time of all officers), or is there going to be something in place so that the dropoff in experience gained isn't quite so harsh for the first few officers deployed?

I.e., assuming that all officers deployed are present for the entire battle, will the experience split look something like:
100% x1 officer, 50% x2 officers, 33% x3 officers, 25% x4 officers, etc. (Split factor is f(x) = 1/x, goes to 0 as x goes to infinity.)
Or more like:
100% x1 officer, 75% x2 officers, 67% x3 officers, 63% x4 officers, etc. (Split factor is f(x) = 0.5 + 1/(2*x), goes to 0.5 as x goes to infinity.)
Or more like:
100% x1 officer, 90% x2 officers, 81% x3 officers, 74% x4 officers, etc. (Split factor is f(x) = e^(1 - (9+x)/10), goes to 0 as x goes to infinity, but the split isn't as severe for low numbers of officers as with the first split.)

I'm not asking what formula you're planning to use for the split, at least not right now; I'm more interested in how the share each officer gets changes as the number of officers deployed grows.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 05, 2015, 10:24:21 PM
It's basically something like this: there's some base amount of XP gained for the battle, and officers get a fraction of that based on the fraction of the time they were in battle. They don't compete with each other for XP, it turns out I lied about that in my previous reply.

I could see changing that, though, but for now this does seem simplest.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: HELMUT on April 06, 2015, 02:32:16 AM
  • Added "Avoid" order, can be set on enemy ships to make all your ships try to avoid getting near them.
This one is going to be handy. The enemy Onslaught will suddenly feel very alone during battle.

Does the AI can do something similar to a player ship now?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Histidine on April 06, 2015, 04:28:58 AM
It's basically something like this: there's some base amount of XP gained for the battle, and officers get a fraction of that based on the fraction of the time they were in battle. They don't compete with each other for XP, it turns out I lied about that in my previous reply.
Hmm. That does have the advantage of simplicity, but it also incentivizes "always deploy all ships with officers on them" (using a cheap ship if you're being stingy with the credits).

"Why do you keep sending me into battle with a shuttle?!"
"Training."

On the other hand, competing for XP potentially introduces its own set of gamey behaviours (most extreme case: taking an officer off a ship so you can still field it without worrying about leeching XP). If you really want to eliminate these, sometimes the most straightforward option is the only one: give all officers the full XP amount even if they spent the entire battle twiddling their thumbs in the reserve.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: zakastra on April 06, 2015, 04:45:00 AM
Will officers (have a chance to?) die if the ship they are commanding is destroyed? I think this would be a definite incentive to not throw them in cheap rustbuckets every engagement, and carefully consider when to deploy them
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DatonKallandor on April 06, 2015, 04:55:31 AM
If they can die people are even less likely to engage in anything but 100% sure wins. There's already more than enough punishment for the player engaging in interesting pitched battles - there really doesn't need to be more.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: boskoro on April 06, 2015, 05:26:12 AM
Hey Everyone,

Just wanted to say Awesome Game!, can't wait for the new release (any spoilers towards the date /wink).
OnTopic: I feel that the Officers should die with the ship as it would be a simple mechanic to refresh the list of Officers from time to time.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on April 06, 2015, 05:38:02 AM
Maybe they should just get incapacitated for a (random/dependent on the ship size) while if their ship is disabled, but do get killed if the hulk get completely destroyed. Making them invulnerable don't seems a good idea to me as they would becomes no brainers, but killing them too often isn't good either.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: celestis on April 06, 2015, 05:44:47 AM
Awwww yeah! All that is awesome!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: goduranus on April 06, 2015, 06:49:10 AM
Come on!
Fighter wings especially needs officers, like Manfred von Richtohofen, Roy Focker, Hikaru Ichniro, Tom Cruise or Arnold Schwarzenegger, who should dramatically increase the potency of their weaponry and add bonuses to their evasion.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 06, 2015, 06:50:54 AM
Do Xyphos have their shiny new Pulse Lasers?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on April 06, 2015, 06:51:08 AM
At the flick of a button, every command seat can be turned into an Escape Pod DeluxeTM.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheDTYP on April 06, 2015, 10:16:03 AM
OOOOOOh I'm digging this update! A lot!
Will there be any new factions in future updates (Or even this one?) or no?
Very excited for the quests, I can see you added relationships for NPC's, I'm liking it! 
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 06, 2015, 10:44:12 AM
Added "Avoid" order, can be set on enemy ships to make all your ships try to avoid getting near them.

Does the AI can do something similar to a player ship now?

It does not. I thought about it but it seems like it would be highly infuriating. Imagine every enemy ship acting like the Hounds of old.

That said, I do enjoy tormenting players, so maybe at some point :)

On the other hand, competing for XP potentially introduces its own set of gamey behaviours (most extreme case: taking an officer off a ship so you can still field it without worrying about leeching XP). If you really want to eliminate these, sometimes the most straightforward option is the only one: give all officers the full XP amount even if they spent the entire battle twiddling their thumbs in the reserve.

Yeah. Mainly I just wanted to not have every officer level up at the exact same pace, that feels kind of weird. Easy enough to adjust if it proves problematic, though.


Re: officers dying/becoming incapacitated:
At the moment, no. There's no "greater good" to sacrifice them for. When there is (e.g., say you're trying to defend an outpost, and it's *worth it* to take losses) then these kinds of mechanics may make sense, and I'll look at it again then.


Just wanted to say Awesome Game!, can't wait for the new release (any spoilers towards the date /wink).

Hi, and welcome to the forum! No spoilers on the release date, I'm afraid :) This forum is a dedicated soon(tm) zone.


Come on!
Fighter wings especially needs officers, like Manfred von Richtohofen, Roy Focker, Hikaru Ichniro, Tom Cruise or Arnold Schwarzenegger, who should dramatically increase the potency of their weaponry and add bonuses to their evasion.

... perhaps. But not right now. I don't want to mess with fighter wings too much right now; not entirely sure they'll continue on forever in their present form. They might. But they also might not.


Do Xyphos have their shiny new Pulse Lasers?

Yep, just didn't make it into the notes.

Will there be any new factions in future updates (Or even this one?) or no?

Maybe. Probably not this one, though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DatonKallandor on April 06, 2015, 11:50:50 AM
Oh man, Fighter Wings being overhauled would be awesome. The whole puttering along at FTL speed consuming fuel (and in some edge cases, even slowing down the fleet) when there's carriers right there feels and plays so wrong.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Aeson on April 06, 2015, 12:28:55 PM
Oh man, Fighter Wings being overhauled would be awesome. The whole puttering along at FTL speed consuming fuel (and in some edge cases, even slowing down the fleet) when there's carriers right there feels and plays so wrong.
Fighter wings don't burn fuel, and that slowing down the fleet thing is very rare.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Unfolder on April 06, 2015, 02:39:02 PM
Come on!
Fighter wings especially needs officers, like Manfred von Richtohofen, Roy Focker, Hikaru Ichniro, Tom Cruise or Arnold Schwarzenegger, who should dramatically increase the potency of their weaponry and add bonuses to their evasion.

This but not at all joking, fighter wings really need special officers, it's just too cool not to do. Remember that guy that crashed his A-wing into the Executor's command deck? HELLO! PUT HIM IN THE GAME!  Maybe they could be "carrier" officers that improve refit times, just don't write-off fighter centric officers yet.

... perhaps. But not right now. I don't want to mess with fighter wings too much right now; not entirely sure they'll continue on forever in their present form. They might. But they also might not.

Oh...well, they are really OP, in my humble opinion. Fleets of 10-15 fighter wings are reaaaallly hard for the AI to deal with. I don't mind though cause fighter warfare is probably the #1 reason I play this game

Edit: I've been thinking about this on the way home, and I'm really curious, do you mind sharing the broad outlines of your potential plans for fighter revisions? I am curious because to me fighters are great, a really well integrated and elaborate (if OP en masse) system that adds a lot to the game.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hellya on April 06, 2015, 05:58:53 PM
I am going to have to get you to go ahead and release this update, and don't forget about your TP report as it is late. Also, going to have to get you to come in this weekend.

Tom Cruise 

For shame! Who wants to bring down the overall intelligence of their fleet with a monkey that jumps on a coach. This will only result in the Tom Cruise effect, where your ships start "acting" very poorly.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Azmond on April 06, 2015, 10:04:44 PM
I am so happy seeing this heahahaha!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Solinarius on April 07, 2015, 12:37:52 PM
0.7a has a nice ring to it! 8)

Maybe they should just get incapacitated for a (random/dependent on the ship size) while if their ship is disabled, but do get killed if the hulk get completely destroyed. Making them invulnerable don't seems a good idea to me as they would becomes no brainers, but killing them too often isn't good either.

While officers appear to be optional, it doesn't seem like a good idea to entirely skip out on them. They give you a chance to apply custom AI to ships piloted by them. I personally don't have a problem with officers dying because that's how I roll, but it's not completely necessary.

Now, I'm going to counter the above point with why officers were added into the game in the first place: to immerse the player and seamlessly bring more depth to fleet management. I feel they should have a chance to die from ship destruction. Why? Because an army of immortal captains is not immersive. Also, why waste a good opportunity to even further distinguish officer personalities from one another. Perhaps more aggressive or prideful captains maintain that a good captain goes down with their ship. Timid captains would probably never choose this.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 07, 2015, 01:18:05 PM
Edit: I've been thinking about this on the way home, and I'm really curious, do you mind sharing the broad outlines of your potential plans for fighter revisions? I am curious because to me fighters are great, a really well integrated and elaborate (if OP en masse) system that adds a lot to the game.

There's nothing so specific as a plan. There are just lots of mechanics around fighters - how they interact with CR and carriers on the campaign level, for example - that feel like they could be simpler and/or cleaner. It's also pretty fiddly in the code, making it painful to make adjustments. It works, though, so I may end up not touching it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on April 07, 2015, 01:35:36 PM
Now, I'm going to counter the above point with why officers were added into the game in the first place: to immerse the player and seamlessly bring more depth to fleet management. I feel they should have a chance to die from ship destruction. Why? Because an army of immortal captains is not immersive. Also, why waste a good opportunity to even further distinguish officer personalities from one another. Perhaps more aggressive or prideful captains maintain that a good captain goes down with their ship. Timid captains would probably never choose this.
That was pretty much my point... They die from ship destruction, but survive most of the time if their ship is only disabled. (Their survival rate could even be an "Leadership" skill btw)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on April 07, 2015, 04:46:26 PM
Very good AI improvements there. Always enjoy those, they usually aren't expected, so its a nice bonus that keeps the combat from becoming stale because you've "figured out" your enemies, and overall improves the experience

Re: fighters, I think the only thing that needs looking at in the near future is the combat speed, removing 0-flux boost made the slower ones quite a lot less attractive, and skyrocketed the appeal of Thunders.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: MesoTroniK on April 07, 2015, 05:50:16 PM
I honestly think that they should just get the zero flux speed bonus back.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 07, 2015, 06:05:35 PM
Very good AI improvements there. Always enjoy those, they usually aren't expected, so its a nice bonus that keeps the combat from becoming stale because you've "figured out" your enemies, and overall improves the experience

Thanks! I am, as usual, rather excited about that, and ever-optimistic that it'll help eliminate those "shouldn't have happened but it did" allied ship losses. Hopefully, combined with officers, it'll really do the job.


Re: fighters, I think the only thing that needs looking at in the near future is the combat speed, removing 0-flux boost made the slower ones quite a lot less attractive, and skyrocketed the appeal of Thunders.
I honestly think that they should just get the zero flux speed bonus back.

One of the reasons for removing that was how incredibly annoying they were to deal with as a player, if you were in a frigate.

... besides, I'm really not thinking about this in terms of buffing or nerfing them here, so that's kind of tangential.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: kazi on April 07, 2015, 07:34:58 PM
Silly request that I've had for a long time:

Can you make the time acceleration key toggle-able on Linux/Windows installs? I hear that it works that way on Macs, but I don't have one, so I've never been able to experience that wonderful feature.

Like seriously half my time on the campaign map is spent with my left hand permanently pushing the shift key. At first this doesn't seem like a big deal, but after a few hours of play it begins to get a little bit aggravating.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 07, 2015, 07:39:38 PM
Silly request that I've had for a long time:

Can you make the time acceleration key toggle-able on Linux/Windows installs? I hear that it works that way on Macs, but I don't have one, so I've never been able to experience that wonderful feature.

Like seriously half my time on the campaign map is spent with my left hand permanently pushing the shift key. At first this doesn't seem like a big deal, but after a few hours of play it begins to get a little bit aggravating.
+1 to this request! And maybe do the same with caps lock being a toggle for Turn to cursor
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 07, 2015, 08:24:25 PM
Did the Pilum range bug get fixed? They move slower now and I remember hearing their flight time wasn't changed to compensate.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 07, 2015, 09:01:10 PM
Silly request that I've had for a long time:

Can you make the time acceleration key toggle-able on Linux/Windows installs? I hear that it works that way on Macs, but I don't have one, so I've never been able to experience that wonderful feature.

Like seriously half my time on the campaign map is spent with my left hand permanently pushing the shift key. At first this doesn't seem like a big deal, but after a few hours of play it begins to get a little bit aggravating.

If we're being honest, it's more of a bug that it works that way on a Mac (but only if bound to the Caps Lock key).

Beyond that, my thoughts on it: personally, I prefer the "hold to <do whatever>" behavior, so it'd need to be a UI toggle to toggle the behavior one way or the other. The way the game is now, the time speedup is a necessity. However, I'd love for the campaign gameplay to get to the point where it either wasn't necessary at all, or just wasn't necessary nearly as much. I also have some concerns about being to support it as the Sector gets larger, as it basically demands double the performance, though there are probably ways to work around that.

Anyway, what all that boils down to is me not wanting to mess with it right now, until it's clear which way it's going to go. Apologies :)

Did the Pilum range bug get fixed? They move slower now and I remember hearing their flight time wasn't changed to compensate.

Yep, that's fixed.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 08, 2015, 11:37:09 AM
So the Lasher is getting the extra flux dissipation from the first round of buffs + the recent -30% flux from weapons when Accel Ammo Feeder is active?

Thats some pretty nice Lasher lovin'! 8)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 08, 2015, 11:55:08 AM
It lost 10 points of that extra dissipation as a result of the AAF buff :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Unfolder on April 08, 2015, 05:32:41 PM
So the Lasher is getting the extra flux dissipation from the first round of buffs + the recent -30% flux from weapons when Accel Ammo Feeder is active?

Thats some pretty nice Lasher lovin'! 8)

I thought the same, of all the frigates that need buffing lashers were probably the bottom in my mind given how much lead they can sling and flux they can tank for a frigate, whelp even more reason not to use any other low tech frigates  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 09, 2015, 06:10:14 AM
The only other low-tech frigates are combat freighters (Cerberus, Hound, and Shepherd).  Lasher is the only dedicated low-tech combat frigate.  It does not need to be mediocre to the point that frigate-sized combat freighters can match or outperform it in battle.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Lucian Greymark on April 10, 2015, 07:56:24 AM
When I started playing this game and my instinct was "guns in space... with space bullets... wheeeeeeeeee" the lasher was my favorite little ship, but I got almost no where with it for a long ass time. When I switched to the wolf I realized just how much I was gimping myself by using the lasher :/ it makes me happy that it's finally getting to a decent level.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: kazi on April 11, 2015, 04:15:48 PM
Silly request that I've had for a long time:

Can you make the time acceleration key toggle-able on Linux/Windows installs? I hear that it works that way on Macs, but I don't have one, so I've never been able to experience that wonderful feature.

Like seriously half my time on the campaign map is spent with my left hand permanently pushing the shift key. At first this doesn't seem like a big deal, but after a few hours of play it begins to get a little bit aggravating.

If we're being honest, it's more of a bug that it works that way on a Mac (but only if bound to the Caps Lock key).

Beyond that, my thoughts on it: personally, I prefer the "hold to <do whatever>" behavior, so it'd need to be a UI toggle to toggle the behavior one way or the other. The way the game is now, the time speedup is a necessity. However, I'd love for the campaign gameplay to get to the point where it either wasn't necessary at all, or just wasn't necessary nearly as much. I also have some concerns about being to support it as the Sector gets larger, as it basically demands double the performance, though there are probably ways to work around that.

Anyway, what all that boils down to is me not wanting to mess with it right now, until it's clear which way it's going to go. Apologies :)

I get that you don't want to touch the issue before you've made up your mind how it's going to go. That said, adding a keybind for toggle-able time accel would be a major quality of life fix for players while we wait for the aforesaid campaign gameplay changes. If it's almost impossible to play the game without the time accel, it would be super awesome to make it easier on people. It's the same concept as when a good GUI requires half the number of clicks as a bad one. Tapping caps-lock once > holding shift for hours and hours and hours :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Lucian Greymark on April 11, 2015, 08:15:59 PM
Sorry, but you're exaggerating, it's more than possible to play the game for hours at a time as is. When I have to travel long distance I often send the fleet on their way then alt+tab to do something else while they get there. Because the game pauses when they arrive at an interactable target it never wastes any time. At worst I miss some attacks of opportunity against trade fleets.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Pushover on April 11, 2015, 08:29:46 PM
Still, you are suggesting that the way to play this game involves doing something other than playing the game, which to me implies there is a problem. Plus, you would rather have it going at 2x speed when you alt tab, so you can get back to doing something later.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Lucian Greymark on April 12, 2015, 05:30:05 AM
there are plenty of games, especially classic games, that involve simply putting the game down for a few seconds and doing something else while you wait. I personally like the parallels between me having to wait for my fleet to arrive and a real ship captain having to do the same. There's really nothing wrong with it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 12, 2015, 06:27:02 AM
When I want to play a game, I want to play a game.  I do not want to play something fun for one moment then be forced to either do something else away from the game or suffer through a boring wait while doing nothing.  Just because otherwise good games feature such flaws does not make it good or desirable.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on April 12, 2015, 07:08:36 AM
You're implying that travelling in the game is boring and hands-off. This is not so unless you play the biggest, baddest fleet around exclusively. If you aren't doing that, there is always the threat that a bigger fish will come and take a bite while you're out in hyperspace. Both sides have a point here, but I think the fundamental issue is that you should not arrive at a point where you aren't threatened while travelling anymore. And if you are at that point, congratulations, you've won. Time to start over.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 12, 2015, 08:55:04 AM
I get that you don't want to touch the issue before you've made up your mind how it's going to go. That said, adding a keybind for toggle-able time accel would be a major quality of life fix for players while we wait for the aforesaid campaign gameplay changes. If it's almost impossible to play the game without the time accel, it would be super awesome to make it easier on people. It's the same concept as when a good GUI requires half the number of clicks as a bad one. Tapping caps-lock once > holding shift for hours and hours and hours :P

Hmm. Let me think about it - might go the "value in settings.json" route, if I have an opportunity to mess with it. Doing a few too many things right now to just do it.

When I have to travel long distance I often send the fleet on their way then alt+tab to do something else while they get there. Because the game pauses when they arrive at an interactable target it never wastes any time. At worst I miss some attacks of opportunity against trade fleets.

Honestly, to me that's more of an argument that it is an issue than otherwise :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on April 12, 2015, 09:59:32 AM
You're implying that travelling in the game is boring and hands-off. This is not so unless you play the biggest, baddest fleet around exclusively. If you aren't doing that, there is always the threat that a bigger fish will come and take a bite while you're out in hyperspace. Both sides have a point here, but I think the fundamental issue is that you should not arrive at a point where you aren't threatened while travelling anymore. And if you are at that point, congratulations, you've won. Time to start over.

I agree with this - unfortunately, all it takes is getting navigation and augmented engines. Nothing at all can catch you then.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on April 12, 2015, 10:29:51 AM
I'm getting caught plenty by fleets coming head-on and sideways at me, even though I'm faster than they are. But that's in a pirate playthrough, where almost everybody's out to get me.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ranakastrasz on April 12, 2015, 01:06:07 PM
In the Settings.json file, there are values for how fast each burn level goes.
While I am uncertain the difference between the two base speed values, I trippled both of them, which made the game FAR more fun.

Especially trying to swoop into the omnifactory (Starsector+) which has two hostile stations next to it, and has 3 massive fleets I have to consistantly avoid.

I do keep all my stuff there after all :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Movementcat on April 12, 2015, 07:38:23 PM
This Update seems AWESOME !

Can't wait for it i think this will make me play this Game again.

Greetings
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Lucian Greymark on April 13, 2015, 12:14:18 AM
I personally enjoy this game most when I'm hunting down super high value bounties. When it gets to that stage in the game no fleet in hyperspace is any kind of threat to me, hell most of the fleets in system aren't a threat to me. Flying around with three capitals and six cruisers deters pretty much everything else from attacking. When it gets to that point I have no problem sitting back and relaxing with a book while my fleet is in transit.

EDIT: It's worth mentioning that even with shift held down it still takes about three minutes for my fleet to make a cross hyperspace trip because I don't bother investing in navigation for the most part. A little patience and the willingness to just let the game do it's thing for a few minutes means my fleet is significantly more dangerous. I'm fine with that. If you want to get rid of the shift button, you should probably look at making all the ships faster to begin with. or look at making navigation obsolete. Otherwise I see no better way to play than ignoring the skill and being patient.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Unfolder on April 13, 2015, 10:17:33 AM
Rather than holding down shift (or is it ctrl) to double movement speed, you need to have it toggle-able. It's not ergonomic to have to hold down the button. Either that...or vastly increase the threat of interception as the game advances...so that it's never a good idea to toggle fast speed for long. Idk. One cool thing could be "hidden" fleets that can jump out of asteroid fields or hyperspace folds to ambush your ship.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: FabianClasen on April 13, 2015, 02:24:42 PM
This whole Patch sounds very promising. Can't wait for the release.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: kazi on April 14, 2015, 03:41:43 PM
I get that you don't want to touch the issue before you've made up your mind how it's going to go. That said, adding a keybind for toggle-able time accel would be a major quality of life fix for players while we wait for the aforesaid campaign gameplay changes. If it's almost impossible to play the game without the time accel, it would be super awesome to make it easier on people. It's the same concept as when a good GUI requires half the number of clicks as a bad one. Tapping caps-lock once > holding shift for hours and hours and hours :P

Hmm. Let me think about it - might go the "value in settings.json" route, if I have an opportunity to mess with it. Doing a few too many things right now to just do it.


Alright, thanks! Honestly the travel speed issue is my only major gripe with the game (everything else is pretty great!), glad to hear it's going to get looked at again.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 14, 2015, 04:24:00 PM
Does the 5 new star systems mean named bounties are going to spawn even more spread out? Thats gonna be a lot of running around chasing bounties if thats the case...

Hopefully there will be more bounties active at once to compensate.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Unfolder on April 22, 2015, 10:17:30 AM
I cannot tell you how aggravating that fighter regen bug is, surprised it wasn't caught sooner. It comes up a lot with me, I usually fly one destroyer backed by one carrier and 6-10 fighter wings, so often the destroyer will get killed and I'll mass retreat the carrier group. The fighters all regen...my immersion :/
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 22, 2015, 10:22:41 AM
What bug, am I missing something here? Fighter wings get back to full complement (but not CR) after a battle, provided you have any ships with flight decks.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Unfolder on April 22, 2015, 10:37:49 AM
Aah, sorry, you already caught it

Quote
Fixed bug where fighter wings would not properly lose CR for taking losses in combat in some circumstances

When I said "regen" I mean't regen their CR losses, not the fighter units themselves. But yeah, it's been caught, I'm just griping about it again here, looking FORWARD to this release :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 22, 2015, 10:41:32 AM
Ahh, got it, now I remember fixing it. Thanks for clarifying :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: StarSchulz on April 24, 2015, 10:07:43 AM
Can officers switch ships mid battle? they could bail out of a disabled ship and you could order them to control another ship.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 24, 2015, 10:37:06 AM
Absolutely, positively, definitely not :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on April 24, 2015, 03:04:07 PM
So maybe?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 24, 2015, 03:04:45 PM
So maybe?
Maybe later I'm hoping
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 24, 2015, 03:27:15 PM
So maybe?

...

...

...

Well played.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: goduranus on April 25, 2015, 08:38:17 AM
How about the enemy fleet commander?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on April 25, 2015, 09:26:39 AM
Good question, I was wondering the same thing, will commanders and officers also be part of "persistent NPCs?"

Will they die? Will they be randomly generated? What about their stories and roles...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 25, 2015, 10:33:18 AM
Quote
What about their stories and roles...
Simple, they die (like good Disposable Heroes) so the player gets XP and levels up.  Always more where they came from.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 25, 2015, 12:21:58 PM
How about the enemy fleet commander?

Transferring about their fleet? Same answer as above - it just gets too... fiddly.

Good question, I was wondering the same thing, will commanders and officers also be part of "persistent NPCs?"

Will they die? Will they be randomly generated? What about their stories and roles...

I've been thinking about that. Not right now, but maybe - there are some interesting possibilities there.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Talkie Toaster on April 25, 2015, 03:30:11 PM
I've been thinking about that. Not right now, but maybe - there are some interesting possibilities there.
It would be great to be able to butter up Hegemony commanders with Volturnian Lobster (via personal missions?) whilst they're on base, so that they're more likely to let you pass without paying a toll when they're out and about later.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Zelnik on April 26, 2015, 03:55:56 PM
Any word on the ships that have not been added back in, like the torpedo bomber, sabot fighter, and the huge carrier?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 26, 2015, 04:21:54 PM
Any word on the ships that have not been added back in, like the torpedo bomber, sabot fighter

These aren't even on my radar right now, honestly. Little bits of content (which is what those guys are, imo) are going to come and go. They might come back, and they might not. We'll see!

and the huge carrier?

I'm not sure what ship you're talking about - if it's the Astral (high tech carrier, capital ship) then it's still in the game, both missions and campaign. It shouldn't even be that rare at the one Tri-Tachyon military base. If it's something else, then consider me officially confused :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on April 26, 2015, 04:39:53 PM
The above question made me think: Alex, do you reckon there will be more content in the form of raw new ships, weapons, factions etc. in the patches at some point? When all the hooks are in place and functional? A lot of content comes each patch now too, but mostly in the form of more star systems and entirely new mechanics.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 26, 2015, 04:47:24 PM
The above question made me think: Alex, do you reckon there will be more content in the form of raw new ships, weapons, factions etc. in the patches at some point? When all the hooks are in place and functional? A lot of content comes each patch now too, but mostly in the form of more star systems and entirely new mechanics.

I'd say it's highly likely, though I definitely can't say how much compared to the current content in those areas. Some of the current ideas being tossed about internally require new content, there are some gaps in ship roles I'd like to eventually fill, etc. Some of this is lower priority, some higher, and how it all shakes out just depends on too many factors to say anything definitive.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 26, 2015, 04:56:09 PM
I'm not sure what ship you're talking about - if it's the Astral (high tech carrier, capital ship) then it's still in the game, both missions and campaign. It shouldn't even be that rare at the one Tri-Tachyon military base. If it's something else, then consider me officially confused :)
I never found the Astral in Tibicena, but I have no problem finding Odyssey or Paragon.

In Nexerelin, I have found Astral spawn in Tri-Tachyon bases with a large enough population, such as those with 10^6.  Maybe 10^5 too, but not sure about that.  Have not found an Astral in bases with 10^4 population like Tibicena.  Does population influence ship spawning?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 26, 2015, 05:13:41 PM
Hmm, checking into it some more, you're right. It needs a market size of 6+, but it can also be generated in very large trade fleets and in very large person-bounty fleets. So, yeah, it's technically in the campaign, but is super difficult to actually acquire. That one, you can probably expect to be easier to get at some point.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 27, 2015, 03:28:57 PM
there are some gaps in ship roles I'd like to eventually fill

Just want to mention that I find the lack of other light cruisers besides the Falcon most regrettable :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Vulpes on April 28, 2015, 11:38:55 AM
For travel time, how about the equivalent of random encounters?  Wormholes that could take you anywhere, the remains of a scrapyard, a trade fleet limping home without any fuel and... well.  There are no aliens, but you could have pre-collapse drone fleets that were sent to explore the universe with conventional drives.  Just a bunch of interesting/dangerous things the player has to actively grab at; superfleet type things would also make the endgame more challenging. 

Some people suggested what surprises that basically amount to *traps*.  This seems a bad way to deal with travel time; normal travel should be fun or just be reduced, rather than ending up frustrating/tedious.


Also, SS is now approaching the magic 1.0; are there any plans for more exploration oriented gameplay, like randomly generated/hidden systems and content: stuff like tech mining, digging up autofactories and making/finding hidden bases in uncharted regions (such pro pirate)?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 28, 2015, 11:58:38 AM
Just want to mention that I find the lack of other light cruisers besides the Falcon most regrettable :)
I would have preferred Falcon to be shrunk a bit and classified as a destroyer.  Either that or given two more light mounts ahead of its mediums so it does not need to choose between PD or assault.  As it is, I prefer smaller and cheaper options over the Falcon.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Zelnik on April 28, 2015, 12:52:48 PM
Any word on the ships that have not been added back in, like the torpedo bomber, sabot fighter

These aren't even on my radar right now, honestly. Little bits of content (which is what those guys are, imo) are going to come and go. They might come back, and they might not. We'll see!

and the huge carrier?

I'm not sure what ship you're talking about - if it's the Astral (high tech carrier, capital ship) then it's still in the game, both missions and campaign. It shouldn't even be that rare at the one Tri-Tachyon military base. If it's something else, then consider me officially confused :)


Yeah the Astral, sorry, I haven't actually played the game for a few months because I pretty much maxed out the game as it stands >.>

I love the little torpedo bomber though! PLEASE put it back in? *bambi eyes*
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Kzanu on April 30, 2015, 07:21:15 AM
I'm just wondering how much until the release of 0.7.  I downloaded the game yesterday, played 5 hours just looking for comms from mercenaries (I've read the blog). Then I realized the patch didn't hit. Had to cry myself to sleep... :'(
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Unfolder on April 30, 2015, 07:28:09 AM
For this release or one in the future, can we have quality of life improvement for ship deployment? Specifically, I'd like a "shift+2 left clicks" to allow you select/de-select large groups of ships at once. For example, you click, "deploy all," then shift+ 2 left clicks a swath of support ships on the tail end of your fleet (cargo, fuel, tugs) that you don't want to deploy to get them out of the roster. Or, if you are chasing and just want to send frigates, shift+ 2 left clicks just the frigates which you have in a convenient adjacent row. Simple solution to an irksome problem of large fleets
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 30, 2015, 07:38:53 AM
For this release or one in the future, can we have quality of life improvement for ship deployment?

You know that you you can assign and choose custom groups with ctrl+1 -9?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Unfolder on April 30, 2015, 09:18:43 AM
No! That would be a handy tooltip or hint fffffffuuuuuuuhhhhh
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 30, 2015, 09:35:33 AM
I'm just wondering how much until the release of 0.7.  I downloaded the game yesterday, played 5 hours just looking for comms from mercenaries (I've read the blog). Then I realized the patch didn't hit. Had to cry myself to sleep... :'(

My apologies! To answer your question: "when it's ready". Apologies for that, as well :)

No! That would be a handy tooltip or hint fffffffuuuuuuuhhhhh

Added. Yeah, that's extremely well hidden.


I love the little torpedo bomber though! PLEASE put it back in? *bambi eyes*

The Trident, with the two Atropos torpedoes? Maybe at some point, but I think it could use some tweaks first, so we'll see.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Yetti on May 01, 2015, 09:51:10 AM
Wanna see in future releases of starsector a player (your ship/fleet) vs huge starbases and spase stations with orbital weapons! like this

(http://smages.com/images/meow.png)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Shedovv on May 08, 2015, 02:13:59 PM
Wanna see in future releases of starsector a player (your ship/fleet) vs huge starbases and spase stations with orbital weapons! like this

(http://smages.com/images/meow.png)

OMG Dat Orbital Fusion Cannon is scary as f**k!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Zelnik on May 10, 2015, 09:24:12 AM
I just want to see the trident put back in... nothing fancy... nothing exciting.. I just like my little evil manta-rays of death
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on May 11, 2015, 01:25:04 AM
Tridents are pretty effective bombers. Always cool to see them launch thierpayload all the time. Unlike the... Dagger...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on May 11, 2015, 06:42:00 AM
Tridents are pretty effective bombers. Always cool to see them launch thierpayload all the time. Unlike the... Dagger...

Eh, the Atropos Toros never seem to make it to there target.
Interesting idea:
I wonder how a trident would work with a sabot launcher instead. Sabots are fairly close range at this point .
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on May 11, 2015, 01:56:33 PM
Tridents are pretty effective bombers. Always cool to see them launch thierpayload all the time. Unlike the... Dagger...

I think you've been playing too much SS+. The Dagger is pretty good.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on May 11, 2015, 02:45:54 PM
I'll close here for now :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 23, 2015, 10:16:47 AM
Updated!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on June 23, 2015, 10:40:23 AM
Again, interesting changes. I'm looking forward to playing with the new supply/deploy numbers, but in general you might've taken some burden off the player by making big ships cheaper to use.

Not so sure on the 15 second 'aim time' mechanic, it seems like a blanket approach that doesn't take into account differences between weapons. I'd rather see some weapons' firing arc widen as they're turned and narrow down when they remain steady to simulate aiming and prevent crazy 'snap shots'. Skills could tie into this.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 23, 2015, 10:48:20 AM
Not so sure on the 15 second 'aim time' mechanic, it seems like a blanket approach that doesn't take into account differences between weapons. I'd rather see some weapons' firing arc widen as they're turned and narrow down when they remain steady to simulate aiming and prevent crazy 'snap shots'. Skills could tie into this.

Ah, but it's not meant to represent differences between weapons - it's about gunner skill / weapon AI tuning / etc. The time it takes to zero in on a target goes down with higher CR.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on June 23, 2015, 10:53:47 AM
Woohoo! No more crew sucking supplies! Now my crew heavy low-tech fleet won't be hit so hard when I add another Dominator. :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on June 23, 2015, 10:58:25 AM
Yay! The new changed are quite interesting/awesome. I am however, rather curious about this change:

*Removed logistics rating mechanic*


What made you decide to remove it?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xanderzoo on June 23, 2015, 11:00:39 AM
I can't wait for 0.7... It's going to be amazing.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on June 23, 2015, 11:01:16 AM
Some exiting changes here!

Removed logistics rating mechanic
Ships have explicit "supplies/month" and "supplies/recover from deployment" stats, set to the same value (i.e one deployment costs as many supplies as operating for a month)
High Maintenance hullmod: increases supplies/month only
Automated Repair Unit hullmod: removed penalties; increase in CR recovery does *not* reduce the overall recovery cost
Removed supply cost per day for crew and marines (assumed to be negligible compared to ship maintenance)
Logistics skill, Leadership aptitude: now reduce maintenance supply use 30%/20% respectively
Fleet size hard-limited to 25 ships total


OK, that seems like a major simplification. Sounds good at first, I hope it works out. What will the big fleet logistic indicator show now? ...Operation Time? :)



About this zeroing in mechanic: Will the aiming be reset under certain conditions, e.g. when the target gets out of sensor range? Or does it stay optimal forever once it is?



"Solar Shielding" hullmod: Sounds great for specialized sun dwelling pirate gangs with that mod on every ship 8)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on June 23, 2015, 11:11:11 AM
Would it be possible to see some examples of the new logistics costs and stuff? As from how I am understanding it, it looks like we are going to be bleeding even more supplies than what we did back in .62? AND deployments are going to hurt even more
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheDTYP on June 23, 2015, 11:12:08 AM
I may or may not have asked this some time long ago, way back in the day, but are you planning on adding more missions or Events to this update, or is it strictly there for structure purposes, and you're saving that for the "content" stage?

P.S. Also, are there any plans to make missions story driven? Or branching?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on June 23, 2015, 11:25:40 AM
I may or may not have asked this some time long ago, way back in the day, but are you planning on adding more missions or Events to this update, or is it strictly there for structure purposes, and you're saving that for the "content" stage?
P.S. Also, are there any plans to make missions story driven? Or branching?
Yep, missions are gonna be in this update!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 23, 2015, 11:31:32 AM
*Removed logistics rating mechanic*

What made you decide to remove it?

A couple of things came together. For one, even I could never remember exactly what it does, and that's so not a good sign. Also, its originally-intended job - different-sized fleets within the same logistics points investment - seemed to be awfully niche for the complexity it added. Finally, I needed to add some new widgets (for sensor stuff) to the logistics display in the lower left, and it was getting awfully cluttered.

OK, that seems like a major simplification. Sounds good at first, I hope it works out. What will the big fleet logistic indicator show now? ...Operation Time? :)

The space has been recycled for sensor widgets; not a pixel wasted. Well, not strictly recycled as the widget got rearranged, but you get the idea :)

About this zeroing in mechanic: Will the aiming be reset under certain conditions, e.g. when the target gets out of sensor range? Or does it stay optimal forever once it is?

It resets after a couple of seconds spent not firing.

"Solar Shielding" hullmod: Sounds great for specialized sun dwelling pirate gangs with that mod on every ship 8)

Indeed.


Would it be possible to see some examples of the new logistics costs and stuff? As from how I am understanding it, it looks like we are going to be bleeding even more supplies than what we did back in .62? AND deployments are going to hurt even more

Some approximate values, off the top of my head (recovery cost is same as monthly in all cases except for Hyperion, which has a double monthly cost compared to recovery):
Tempest - 6/month
Medusa - 12/month
Eagle - 20ish/month
Paragon - 50/month

Still subject to tuning and all that.


I may or may not have asked this some time long ago, way back in the day, but are you planning on adding more missions or Events to this update, or is it strictly there for structure purposes, and you're saving that for the "content" stage?

You mean aside from the "market procurement" mission, right? Maybe a couple of missions. What I want to do - after wrapping up some more TOP SECRET stuff - is spend some time playtesting and making all the features, well... basically, making this into something resembling a game that can be played and fun. With a lot of new features, that's a significant effort. Adding a new mission or event here and there might well be a part of this process.

P.S. Also, are there any plans to make missions story driven? Or branching?

Maybe? Probably? The infrastructure supports this, so it's a question of how content creation will shape up, so I can't say one way or the other definitely right now. It does seem like it could be useful/good, though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on June 23, 2015, 11:40:15 AM
Combat balance:
  • Sabot:
    • Improved missile aim
    • Changed damage back to single-shot with 750 damage
    • Added variance in Sabot launch range to make it a bit more unpredictable
    • Increased projectile speed to where the AI can't always react and lower shields in time
  • Non-missile projectiles that are fading out after reaching maximum range now deal soft-flux damage to shields
  • Slightly improved Harpoon missile target tracking
  • Accelerated Ammo Feeder: reduces flux cost of ballistic weapons by 30%
  • Pilum: reduced hitpoints to 50 (from 125)
Liking most of these.  Not sure about the sabot going single-shot again; I rather liked the spray effect, and would have just given them salamander-style regeneration instead of making them viable anti-armor weapons.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Debido on June 23, 2015, 11:40:38 AM
Quote
Fixed NPE caused by assigning quad trails to ships; quad trails for ships still have artifacts

Thank you!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on June 23, 2015, 11:42:09 AM
Yet another Pilum nerf, though? 50 HP... they are gonna be swatted away with even more ease. Is their original speed going to be brought back?

What is the new aiming mechanic meant to reinforce or discourage? Seems like its a ploy to further reduce "kiting" effectivness.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on June 23, 2015, 12:08:12 PM
The space has been recycled for sensor widgets; not a pixel wasted. Well, not strictly recycled as the widget got rearranged, but you get the idea :)

Picture please?  :)

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ahne on June 23, 2015, 12:10:41 PM
cool patch notes but "Fleet size hard-limited to 25 ships total" why?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on June 23, 2015, 12:19:01 PM
cool patch notes but "Fleet size hard-limited to 25 ships total" why?

I'd guess because with logistic costs gone, there's nothing else to stop you from getting an unlimited number of ships. 


I hope that limit is handled like cargo/crew, i.e. it can be surpassed but only at logarithmically increasing penalty costs.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on June 23, 2015, 12:26:28 PM
I'm happy to hear about the autofire aim getting better the longer it fires at a target, and then resetting. Its always glaringly obvious in games when the computer fails to improve its aim after consistently missing by the exact same amount :P.

Logistics is gone! Interesting. I'm curious about the 25 ship hard limit - any plans to put that under a skill? (I know, skills are subject to a retuning pass SoonTm)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Debido on June 23, 2015, 12:44:57 PM
I'm guessing that hard limit will be moddable or configurable in some way because, you know, reasons, bigger battles etc PC Master race superiority complex.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 23, 2015, 12:49:53 PM
Yet another Pilum nerf, though? 50 HP... they are gonna be swatted away with even more ease. Is their original speed going to be brought back?

I like where their speed is at. They're meant to be a support weapon, with effectiveness mostly coming from splitting the enemy's attention rather than scoring direct hits. The nerf is mainly so that lower-quality PD is able to stand up to larger number of pilums - LMGs, various PD lasers, etc. Might end up tweaking it more depending on how it goes, though.


What is the new aiming mechanic meant to reinforce or discourage? Seems like its a ploy to further reduce "kiting" effectivness.
I'm happy to hear about the autofire aim getting better the longer it fires at a target, and then resetting. Its always glaringly obvious in games when the computer fails to improve its aim after consistently missing by the exact same amount :P.

Yes, that. Think of it less as "new mechanic" and more "AI improvement".


cool patch notes but "Fleet size hard-limited to 25 ships total" why?

I'd guess because with logistic costs gone, there's nothing else to stop you from getting an unlimited number of ships. 

Right. It's just the game's way of saying, "don't have that many ships, ok?" Intentionally gamey and without any in-lore justification. It's a small and clear rule, and seems a fair tradeoff for the amount of cleanup it allows. It *is* configurable through settings.json, though.


I hope that limit is handled like cargo/crew, i.e. it can be surpassed but only at logarithmically increasing penalty costs.

Logistics is gone! Interesting. I'm curious about the 25 ship hard limit - any plans to put that under a skill? (I know, skills are subject to a retuning pass SoonTm)

It's not - I don't want to tie any mechanics to this. I mean, LR was exactly that very thing, and the point here was to remove it because it wasn't pulling its weight.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on June 23, 2015, 01:05:27 PM
I assume 25 ships is a player-only restriction.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on June 23, 2015, 01:05:44 PM
Quote
•Augmented Engines: burn speed increase reduced to 1, now also reduces sensor strength by 50%/increases sensor profile by 50%, removed capacity penalty
-50% sensors?  Does that mean my ship's base visibility is cut in half?  If so, that seems too much.  I understand extra profile (due to brighter monster-sized engine), but going blind too... sounds crippling.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on June 23, 2015, 01:14:40 PM
Quote
•Augmented Engines: burn speed increase reduced to 1, now also reduces sensor strength by 50%/increases sensor profile by 50%, removed capacity penalty
-50% sensors?  Does that mean my ship's base visibility is cut in half?  If so, that seems too much.  I understand extra profile (due to brighter monster-sized engine), but going blind too... sounds crippling.

I think the assumption is you off-set it with sensor-carrying ships like the apogee or omen.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on June 23, 2015, 01:41:34 PM
Super fast frigate fleets getting brought down a peg or two. Cruisers and Caps getting some lovin' this patch. :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on June 23, 2015, 01:44:37 PM
I dislike the Omen (ugly piece of junk that cannot fight), and I am not too fond of the Apogee (slow, ugly, but effective), like it needed yet another way to trump the Aurora (useless other than Reaper spam).

EDIT:  If the visibility penalty is too harsh, I might end up taking Unstable Injector again.  Similar to the time when Augmented Engines had double repair times, which was a much worse penalty than Unstable Injectors x4 damage to engines (because engines flameout after a big hit anyway, and repair time is more important).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 23, 2015, 01:55:40 PM
I assume 25 ships is a player-only restriction.

Yeah, it's only enforced in the UI.


Quote
•Augmented Engines: burn speed increase reduced to 1, now also reduces sensor strength by 50%/increases sensor profile by 50%, removed capacity penalty
-50% sensors?  Does that mean my ship's base visibility is cut in half?  If so, that seems too much.  I understand extra profile (due to brighter monster-sized engine), but going blind too... sounds crippling.

Sensor strength doesn't linearly translate into sensor range - it's a more involved formula. Reducing the sensor strength of a destroyer by 50% cuts its effective range by something like 15-20%. Likewise, having two destroyers doesn't double the effective sensor range, even though it doubles the sensor strength - that'd get out of hand very quickly, if it did.

The actual sensor range is displayed in the UI, since that's the more interesting stat, and you can see how changing your fleet composition affects it.

(Abilities, on the other hand, mostly affect range, both sensor and "detected at", those being fleet-level stats.)


The space has been recycled for sensor widgets; not a pixel wasted. Well, not strictly recycled as the widget got rearranged, but you get the idea :)

Picture please?  :)

Not quite ready for primetime - need some new graphics.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 23, 2015, 02:14:51 PM
Liking most of these.  Not sure about the sabot going single-shot again; I rather liked the spray effect, and would have just given them salamander-style regeneration instead of making them viable anti-armor weapons.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's just... they're supposed to be shield-breakers. Can't really do that without also giving them a chance to cause overloads - i.e. fast enough that the AI can't always react. And once you have something like that, regen doesn't feel right.

That doesn't really relate to one-shot vs spray, though. That's more of an aesthetic/subjective choice for me - it just feels better to use, and matches the weapon art. It's also a bit of a buff, sort of like ammo regen would be for the spray version. Similar end result, I think, in terms of usefulness.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on June 23, 2015, 02:28:59 PM
Sabots need to do some damage to armor or hull.  Currently, with the spray Sabot, almost any ship can drop shields and tank a Sabot spray for insignificant damage.  With the old 750 sabot, a hit to hull (or even armor if thin enough) will hurt, if the ship drops shields.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on June 23, 2015, 02:44:48 PM
Are PD and Beam weapons going to be effected by the new autofire AI? It seems like this will further nerf beams and all PD in general except flak...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on June 23, 2015, 02:54:56 PM
Beams do not lead the target, so it doesn't seem like this would matter.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on June 23, 2015, 03:03:31 PM
Sabots need to do some damage to armor or hull.  Currently, with the spray Sabot, almost any ship can drop shields and tank a Sabot spray for insignificant damage.  With the old 750 sabot, a hit to hull (or even armor if thin enough) will hurt, if the ship drops shields.
Yes.  True.  Good.  Sabots are the specialist anti-shield missiles.  They're support weapons.  They shouldn't be punching holes in armor, just like a launch of harpoons shouldn't be breaking shields.

What they should be doing - and the spray version does just fine - is forcing the enemy to choose between a huge chunk of hard flux from the sabot, and armor-tanking whatever other weapons you've got lined up.  A hammerhead with sabots and heavy maulers should be a really dangerous beast.

The problem, though, is that shields regenerate.  If you've got a target with its shields down, it makes sense to pop a harpoon into it, regardless of how much armor it has left, because armor doesn't regenerate.  Sabots, by contrast, are much more situational; because of the limited ammunition, it only makes sense to use sabots when the target is relatively high on flux.  Which means you have to build up hard flux using other weapons.  Which means that ought-to-be-dangerous hammerhead I mentioned in the previous paragraph has to build up hard flux using maulers.  Imagine, by contrast, if you had to chew through most of a target's armor with needlers before it was worth firing a harpoon.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's just... they're supposed to be shield-breakers. Can't really do that without also giving them a chance to cause overloads - i.e. fast enough that the AI can't always react. And once you have something like that, regen doesn't feel right.

That doesn't really relate to one-shot vs spray, though. That's more of an aesthetic/subjective choice for me - it just feels better to use, and matches the weapon art. It's also a bit of a buff, sort of like ammo regen would be for the spray version. Similar end result, I think, in terms of usefulness.
Which brings us to this.  I disagree on them needing to be fast enough that the AI can't always react; they just need to be used in conjunction with good anti-armor weaponry (maulers, blasters, etc).  The interesting part isn't going "bang, haha, you're overloaded and couldn't do anything about it", the interesting part is forcing a target to choose between armor hits from other weapons versus the hard flux of the sabot.

* * * * *

That all said, I am not in favor of regenerating sabots that do their damage in a single chunk.  If it's an effective anti-armor weapon ontop of the degree to which it can threaten shields, then it should have limited ammunition just like harpoons.  But I also feel that that's kindof diluting the uniqueness of the weapon.*

(Hm... maybe add a second anti-shield missile option?  Something that uses the spray sabot mechanics, has regenerating ammunition, and - if needed for balance - maybe even make it do soft flux instead of hard flux?  "Graviton Burst Missile" or somesuch?  Is a thing to think about...)

*Edit: Specifically, the issue is, "what is the operational difference between a harpoon and a sabot?" - and the answer once this goes through is "none".  They'll both be limited ammo weapons that you only want to fire at a target that's on the edge of overloading, to force them to choose between overloading and taking a good chunk of armor damage.  The sabot is harder to shoot down, but does less damage to armor; which one you use depends more on what sort of PD you expect to face than on whether you're trying to specialize in anti-shield or anti-armor.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on June 23, 2015, 03:43:50 PM
Sabots have too few shots to bother with combo attacks.  They need to be effective on their own, and the current sabots sprays are not.

If I want support weapon, Salamanders are superior because they are unlimited (and Sabots are not) and mess the AI up more effectively than any Sabot can.  Sabot needs to be able to maim or kill in a pinch, if the AI is too wise to let Sabots hit shields.

If AI uses Sabots like they do now, Sabots will probably remain a playership-only weapon for the purpose of high damage strike weapon (i.e., unblockable improvised Harpoon).  AI loves to waste Sabots on shields.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on June 23, 2015, 06:05:03 PM
Nice changes, esp. the Sabot ones. Hopefully they will be worth considering over Harpoons, Annihilators and Reapers now.

Ideally a support frigate armed with Sabots should seriously threaten enemy cruisers and destroyers and be a worthwhile addition to the fleet. If the AI no longer perfectly shields them, that will be enough - midline and low-tech ships will be seriously weak to sabots.

Too sleepy and out of it atm. to consider what the logistics changes entail, but simplification is def. good in that regard.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on June 23, 2015, 06:51:50 PM
Overall, great stuff and I'm about as excited about this version as I'm sure I'll be about the first use for Industry- this should add a lot of depth :)

Quote
Fleet size hard-limited to 25 ships total
I really hope this is amenable to a mod-side variable change. 

Why a hard limit anyhow?  I presume this is to limit certain obvious tactics with cheap Frigates that can be combined to do massive missile spam, but it appears to me that the obvious answer is to simply make them CR-inefficient for their size rather than to have an absolute upper limit on fleet sizes, so that the tactic is available, but expensive. 

That makes those ships newbie traps, however, in the sense that taking them early will lead to a slow growth curve for player incomes if they fight much at all; perhaps the ultimate Right Answer is to simply make Capital-level PD much more effective so that this is simply not viable against endgame content.

Moreover, where does this leave AI fleets, where 25 ships may not be much of a threat?

Quote
Nice changes, esp. the Sabot ones. Hopefully they will be worth considering over Harpoons, Annihilators and Reapers now.
I'm still not certain that this will work out well, but it's a good step in the right direction.  I really think that the ultimate answer on Sabots is that they'd be the best at actually penetrating Capital-level PD because of the stand-off range, making them a good one-two missile punch, with Reapers / Harpoon spam following up when the ship doesn't have Flux left.  However, that means that they'd have to have considerably longer ranges than they do at present.

Also, wherefore the Hurricane?  It's still fairly lame for what it costs.


On the quad-strip issues, thanks for fixing the NPE.  Not sure why there'd still be artifacts, though; can't it simply orphan / kill the trails when the Engine isn't being given a forward command, for both Engine types, which would resolve it?  I mean, they both get commands through what appears (from the outside) to be practically identical code, so this seems like where to address that and have identical behaviors.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on June 23, 2015, 07:03:10 PM
Cheap upkeep, fast CR recovery, and fast burn speed is why I use frigate-only fleets numbering over forty; and I deploy them most if not all of them in every fight to curb stomp the enemy then recover 50% CR after standing down.

Bigger ships would be more attractive if they did not move so slow and take forever to recover CR.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on June 23, 2015, 07:52:29 PM
What's wrong with the Logistics Rating mechanic? The tradeoff of smaller number of ships at higher CR versus a larger fleet at lower CR has always felt like a very natural and core mechanic to me, soft-limiting fleet size in exactly the way I would expect it to. Here's a laundry list of problems I have with this change:


It seems like such a huge step backwards. Starsector is designed with care for enhancing player choices and with awarness of how hard limits negatively affect gameplay (there was a whole blog post about this, when the cargo system was being developed!) and this goes directly against those principles. I just don't understand how that's not a terrible idea.

The only way it makes any sense is if the scale and economy of the game is going to be different so that a player is unlikely to ever be able to have 25 ships, let alone 25 large ships - but as it stands now, that's not at all a large number for the late game.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 23, 2015, 08:07:22 PM
Quote
Fleet size hard-limited to 25 ships total
I really hope this is amenable to a mod-side variable change. 

As I mentioned in one of my previous, it is - a value in settings.json.

Why a hard limit anyhow?  I presume this is to limit certain obvious tactics with cheap Frigates that can be combined to do massive missile spam, but it appears to me that the obvious answer is to simply make them CR-inefficient for their size rather than to have an absolute upper limit on fleet sizes, so that the tactic is available, but expensive. 

Mainly UI concerns, actually. It's just not meant to handle huge numbers of ships.

Also, wherefore the Hurricane?  It's still fairly lame for what it costs.

It's not in as bad a spot as the Sabot (it's fairly useful, and there's less competition for the slot), but I might take a look at it eventually.

On the quad-strip issues, thanks for fixing the NPE.  Not sure why there'd still be artifacts, though; can't it simply orphan / kill the trails when the Engine isn't being given a forward command, for both Engine types, which would resolve it?  I mean, they both get commands through what appears (from the outside) to be practically identical code, so this seems like where to address that and have identical behaviors.

The artifacts generally come from the kind of movement ships can do that missiles... well, could, but don't. I.E. moving in one direction, turning around, and then engaging the engines. The trail also moves - it looks much better this way than if the points stay in one place after they're generated - but, well, it gets very complicated very fast. The campaign version of the engine trails is doing things like line-line intersection between adjacent point perpendiculars to detect potential artifacts and fade out before they become visible, and is not quite 100% successful at that. With completely free movement as in combat, it's even more troublesome.


The only way it makes any sense is if the scale and economy of the game is going to be different so that a player is unlikely to ever be able to have 25 ships, let alone 25 large ships - but as it stands now, that's not at all a large number for the late game.

Yes, that's exactly it. You're right that it's not the case now, though. On the other hand, starting higher and lowering the limit later is likely to not go over very well :) Beyond that, managing that many ships is a pain, but you kind of have to - but now you can't, even if it's for a gamey reason. So, I think just by that alone it'll result in an improvement. And then, at some point, the difficulty curve of the game will even out to where this limit doesn't come up much.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on June 23, 2015, 08:08:18 PM
Bigger ships would be more attractive if they did not move so slow and take forever to recover CR.
Well, the first complaint should be fixed - as far as I can tell, Alex has more or less leveled the playing ground for burn levels.  At least, with the last few patch notes and blog posts.  The smaller ships are slower, largers ones faster, but the smaller ones still have a very slight advantage.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Histidine on June 23, 2015, 10:05:54 PM
I won't say it's broken now or anything, but I broadly agree with orost's criticisms of the new system. (On the plus side, it does at least remove the oddity of high-tech ships being cheaper to idle than low-tech ones.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 23, 2015, 10:36:11 PM
I don't think huge fleets are going to be practical even in this release. You'd frequently need to use "emergency burn" to catch things, and that costs fuel and as many supplies as deploying your entire fleet, in CR recovery costs.

That said, I *could* see adding some kind of soft limit to fleet size, but at most on the level of, say, increasing maintenance costs more than linearly beyond a certain point. If that proves necessary. Which I don't think it will, but we'll see.

Basically: if your fleet size is getting up above 25 ships in vanilla, then chances are you're in the "I won the game" phase of the game anyway, i.e. the portion that's really not tuned very well at this point. If it's not vanilla and larger fleet sizes are more necessary/common, well, a mod can increase that limit.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Azmond on June 23, 2015, 11:43:00 PM
Oh one word Alex, one word.

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSS!!!!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on June 24, 2015, 12:33:13 AM
About that hard cap on fleet size, why not limit the fleet by max crew? That would naturally balance the fleet composition: if the cap is at 2000 you can only have a couple a Capitals... Though that's a lot of frigates! Okay it would require to re-balance the crew complements, but since they do not consume supplies anymore they are mostly there for flavor now: take the old FP, multiply by 10 and voilà, you have a balanced skeleton crew requirement!

Another suggestion from DR was to use a ship size weight like 1/1/2/3/5 so a 25 fleet size would translate to 25 frigates or 5 capitals, witch is somewhat close to the current values without the Logistic Rating tedium.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: nomadic_leader on June 24, 2015, 01:27:42 AM
Eliminating DP is a really good idea, since the maintenance/repair cost are a built in way of doing this as you say.

What about missions? Aren't they based on DPs? They are very fun as set-piece battle designed challenges, which campaign sadly lacks. If campaign gets storyline/branched set-piece designed battles as part of campaign missions (which it should), then we could wave goodbye to normal missions without too much sadness.

What about the "Battle size" preference, which is based on DP, right? I'm uncomfortable with that preference, since it allows player to manipulate combat and reduce it to soloing 1v1 a trickle of the AI ships. It undercuts modders/content designers trying to make specific encounters, battles, or set-pieces, if the size of the battle can be altered by the player.

As for the hard coded limit, I can see the UI problems, but also its a bit odd that you can have 25 fighter wings or 25 paragons. This is quite different. I like the soft limit idea. If your fleet gets big enough, don't you run into the problem of Xerxes' giant army drinking rivers dry? Where would you get enough supplies for a really big fleet? This is what keeps most armies from getting too large. Speed, stealth, and emergency burn penalties also seem logical at some point, perhaps even more so than maintenance costs (which would realistically decrease with scale)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on June 24, 2015, 02:28:29 AM
I don't think huge fleets are going to be practical even in this release.
That said, I *could* see adding some kind of soft limit to fleet size, but at most on the level of, say, increasing maintenance costs more than linearly beyond a certain point. If that proves necessary. Which I don't think it will, but we'll see.


Just wan't to say that I'm very happy with this apparent trend of ship quality (officers&skills) over quantity. Big fleets are much less fun for me because a) they make the player ship less important, b) they're a pain to manage and c) they don't fit with the "decaying civilization" scenario.

A soft limit would be nice for consistency with the cargo/crew limits and to avoid the mechanic feeling "gamey" or arbitrary.



Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on June 24, 2015, 05:03:52 AM
My current endgame fleets have been either 40+ frigates (plus Hyperion or Onslaught flagship) or 5 frigates and 18-20 Atlases.

I like big epic battles between big fleets (as long as I still have my overtuned max Combat/Tech monster flagship).  That said, I agree managing forty frigates is a pain, but curb-stomping the enemy with an overwhelming force is worth it.

Bigger ships would be more attractive if they did not move so slow and take forever to recover CR.
Well, the first complaint should be fixed - as far as I can tell, Alex has more or less leveled the playing ground for burn levels.  At least, with the last few patch notes and blog posts.  The smaller ships are slower, largers ones faster, but the smaller ones still have a very slight advantage.
I made my comment based on current version, not the v0.7 to come.

I won't say it's broken now or anything, but I broadly agree with orost's criticisms of the new system. (On the plus side, it does at least remove the oddity of high-tech ships being cheaper to idle than low-tech ones.)
I do not mind high tech being a bit cheaper.  Low tech is competitive with high tech in ship classes heavier than frigates.  Enforcer is about on par with Medusa.  High tech cruisers cannot outgun the Medusa without missiles (and Dominator outguns high tech cruisers), and Onslaught is a monster, despite lacking Paragon's defenses.  High-tech ships are bad at kiting (600 range is short), and kiting is very good in this game.

What about the "Battle size" preference, which is based on DP, right? I'm uncomfortable with that preference, since it allows player to manipulate combat and reduce it to soloing 1v1 a trickle of the AI ships. It undercuts modders/content designers trying to make specific encounters, battles, or set-pieces, if the size of the battle can be altered by the player.
Player used to be able to control how many ships the AI would deploy with that and player deploying a small ship.  Now that the AI deploys overwhelming force against your lone ship no matter what, I set battle size to the max so that if I get a big fleet, I get to deploy overwhelming force instead.  Frigate swarm does not work with 200 battle size.  I need to crank it to the max of 500, which is barely enough, but the results are glorious.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: celestis on June 24, 2015, 07:37:55 AM
Quote
Augmented Engines: burn speed increase reduced to 1, now also reduces sensor strength by 50%/increases sensor profile by 50%, removed capacity penalty
Can anyone say what sensor profile is?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 24, 2015, 08:45:31 AM
About that hard cap on fleet size, why not limit the fleet by max crew? That would naturally balance the fleet composition: if the cap is at 2000 you can only have a couple a Capitals... Though that's a lot of frigates! Okay it would require to re-balance the crew complements, but since they do not consume supplies anymore they are mostly there for flavor now: take the old FP, multiply by 10 and voilà, you have a balanced skeleton crew requirement!

Another suggestion from DR was to use a ship size weight like 1/1/2/3/5 so a 25 fleet size would translate to 25 frigates or 5 capitals, witch is somewhat close to the current values without the Logistic Rating tedium.

A soft limit would be nice for consistency with the cargo/crew limits and to avoid the mechanic feeling "gamey" or arbitrary.

As for the hard coded limit, I can see the UI problems, but also its a bit odd that you can have 25 fighter wings or 25 paragons. This is quite different. I like the soft limit idea. If your fleet gets big enough, don't you run into the problem of Xerxes' giant army drinking rivers dry? Where would you get enough supplies for a really big fleet? This is what keeps most armies from getting too large. Speed, stealth, and emergency burn penalties also seem logical at some point, perhaps even more so than maintenance costs (which would realistically decrease with scale)

Well - the 25 limit is not supposed to be something that normally comes into play. (For now, I'm excluding the "you're obliterating everything" phase of the game from "normally", since that part is pretty broken, balance-wise. You'd still be able to obliterate everything anyway, just in a slightly different way.)

If it does end up being something the player bumps into more often, or if it ends being necessary to use as a tool to control player fleet sizes, then I can definitely see bringing in a simpler form of a soft limit, or even just bumping it up a bit. But unless this limit really takes an active role in gameplay, I don't think making it more fancy is a good idea.


What about missions? Aren't they based on DPs? They are very fun as set-piece battle designed challenges, which campaign sadly lacks. If campaign gets storyline/branched set-piece designed battles as part of campaign missions (which it should), then we could wave goodbye to normal missions without too much sadness.

What about the "Battle size" preference, which is based on DP, right? I'm uncomfortable with that preference, since it allows player to manipulate combat and reduce it to soloing 1v1 a trickle of the AI ships. It undercuts modders/content designers trying to make specific encounters, battles, or set-pieces, if the size of the battle can be altered by the player.

All these use the recovery cost instead. This does alter the balance of some missions a good bit, with capital ships being around 2x more expensive.

As far as battle size, it's there for performance reasons. The lower limit can't allow the player to solo AI ships 1-1, it's not low enough for that (and is going up to 250 in this release). That said, if you're using a lower battle size while your computer can handle the default value, you're basically cheating :)



Can anyone say what sensor profile is?

It's a measure of how easy a ship is to detect. The sensor profile of all ships in the fleet is added up to get the fleet's sensor profile. This, together with the sensor strength of another fleet, is used to determine the range at which the other fleet can see this one.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mystic on June 24, 2015, 10:06:15 AM
The sensors and other system map additions alone have me absolutely fired up about the 0.7a release. I believe they will finally make the game into something I want to fire up on a regular basis.  I can hardly wait!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: celestis on June 24, 2015, 10:17:52 AM
Ah, I see, thanks. Great, we're going to have stealth mode!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on June 24, 2015, 11:31:44 AM
Yeah, seriously. In vanilla Starsector (which is what Alex is most concerned about) who ever got up to 25 ships? Why would you? You can easily smash any bounty in vanilla Starsector with 10 or less ships.

25 ships for vanilla Starsector is crazy huge.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on June 24, 2015, 12:02:24 PM
Starsector+ balance (which involves somewhat larger than average fleets due mainly to the greatly increased ship variety) will probably dictate a limit of 30, by comparison.  25 ships actually is about the upper limit of what most players can tolerate anyway.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on June 24, 2015, 12:03:35 PM
Yeah, seriously. In vanilla Starsector (which is what Alex is most concerned about) who ever got up to 25 ships? Why would you? You can easily smash any bounty in vanilla Starsector with 10 or less ships.

25 ships for vanilla Starsector is crazy huge.
Me.  Either with frigate hordes (frigates, in numbers, are faster and more efficient than bigger ships) or absurd Atlas fleet to haul 30,000+ cargo (to exploit shortages and disruptions).

Because over-deploying has its advantages, and they are rewarding enough that I prefer to over-deploy when possible.  In case of Atlas fleet, there is no such thing as too much cargo.  More cargo sold equals more XP, and more XP equals levels, and MORE LEVELS EQUALS POWER!!!  And there is no such thing as too much power if it is obtainable.

Depends.  If I chain-flagships and have max Combat/Tech, sure.  If I use big ships backed up by skills, sure.  If I want to let AI use ten frigates to fight the hardest endgame opponents, I lose.  If I want to use an Atlas fleet but I get stopped by enemy, I better hope my flagship can solo the entire enemy fleet.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Azmond on June 24, 2015, 05:59:36 PM
frankly... the highest I've managed to get to before losing the damn file... was about 12? So the 25 hard limit isn't so bad in my mind...
Otherwise, I'm wondering about the mod's... Will they be broken outright without the DP and such? Or will the numbers related to that not simply load?... or will the mod's not load at all?
(this is coming from a modder who is pretty much still a green-horn in all respects.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on June 24, 2015, 08:26:40 PM
With my mid-tech fleet I have 28 ships (1 cap, 2 cruisers, rest frigates) and 10 fighter squadrons which is exactly 100 logistics points. I like my grand space opera.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on June 24, 2015, 09:09:23 PM
I rarely have more than a dozen ships... but I sometimes have a huge number of fighter wings. In particular, if fielding an Astral I'm usually using around 20 wings. Fighters are really easy to manage so I don't mind 'stocking up' on them, while with ships it gets to be a pain to manage all of their loadouts (and source the weapons and find replacements...).

I think 25 ship cap will be fine for now and it can always get tweaked later. I'm always in favor of simplifying mechanics when they don't add enough depth.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mazuo on June 25, 2015, 12:55:34 AM
I don't really like the change to removing supply cost on crew.  With food still being grown on planets and shipped around, medicines, training and everything else that keeps them doing their jobs their cost really does not seem negligible compared with ammo and spare parts for the ships themselves.  Later on towards release I believed in my head some of the tradeoffs between elite crew and green would be their required supplies and things like marines would be expensive too to keep in large numbers.

Terrain effects and combat officers are great additions and looking forward to see what the latter becomes when the skill revamp happens and when SS+ makes use of them as well.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: nomadic_leader on June 25, 2015, 03:11:03 AM
^^^ Come to think of it, this is very strange that a valkyrie with 10 person skeleton crew uses the same amount of supplies as a valkyrie with 500 crew. Maybe something could be done with crew using cargo space instead of 'crew slots'? 

It doesn't seem right that tonnes of extra crew/marines don't  have any cost; but i'd be interested to hear a little more background on the decision.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on June 25, 2015, 03:39:48 AM
^^^ Come to think of it, this is very strange that a valkyrie with 10 person skeleton crew uses the same amount of supplies as a valkyrie with 500 crew. Maybe something could be done with crew using cargo space instead of 'crew slots'? 

It doesn't seem right that tonnes of extra crew/marines don't  have any cost; but i'd be interested to hear a little more background on the decision.

It actually makes more sense now, supplies are not magical machine parts and food interchanged. Now its just ship parts and ammunition or weapon fuel or whatever you want to think of it as.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on June 25, 2015, 04:26:55 AM
Maybe make crew eat food so that player has less to sell to starving planets (and less XP to reap).  While you are at it, maybe have waste disposal or recycling that converts the crews' poop into organics.

I do not mind that crew will not eat.  One less thing to worry about.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on June 25, 2015, 05:48:11 AM
I don't really like the change to removing supply cost on crew.  With food still being grown on planets and shipped around, medicines, training and everything else that keeps them doing their jobs their cost really does not seem negligible compared with ammo and spare parts for the ships themselves.

I understand it this way: Skeleton crew upkeep cost is now part of the ship upkeep cost. Negligible is only the impact which the difference between theoretical skeleton crew and actual crew has on this costs.



Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on June 25, 2015, 06:13:55 AM
Re: Management
The worst management I need to do for a big fleet is toggle Augmented Engines on and off for each freighter in trade runs.  Turn off Augmented Engines for 20+ ships so I can carry as much food as possible to a starving planet (or as much supplies as possible from Jangala to Tibicena).  After I reach my destination, toggle Augmented Engines back on for all ships to get my precious speed back, until the next big trade run.

Configurations are a one-time deal.  Augmented Engines swapping is constant when I need to maximize cargo for lucrative trade runs.

I am glad Augmented Engines will no longer mess with capacity.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on June 25, 2015, 06:34:12 AM
So, IIRC, one point of the logistics rating mechanic was to present the player with a gradual choice: A small but elite fleet (high LR means increased CR) or a big fleet with low CR. An interesting choice.
Are there new incentives to stay small? The sensor mechanic doesn't seem to be one, since while small fleets are less visible, they also have less sensor range.

I'd not like to end up feeling like I'm doing something stupid when I run solo or just with a few escorts.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on June 25, 2015, 06:40:58 AM
By current endgame, the optimal path is always big fleet.  Nothing reaps as much XP and credits as a big trade run.  The choice between small or big has been a midgame decision, after the player has gained enough assets to do stuff.  Do you want an elite flagship that can kill all by itself and build up relations with all other factions to cooperative?  Do you want a big versatile fleet that can do anything, but not as efficiently as a small elite force?  By endgame, the only way to gain levels quickly enough is to cram as many freighters in your fleet to sell commodities.  Big fleets of warships also finish fights faster than small fleets.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on June 25, 2015, 07:00:40 AM
It would require more campaign features fleshed out for small, elite "special force" fleet to be a viable lategame option I guess.
Like infiltration, blockade running and things like that.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on June 25, 2015, 07:41:07 AM
Well, I wasn't so much thinking of the late- or end-game, but more looking for a good reason to not try to get "as many ships as possible, as fast as possible".
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on June 25, 2015, 08:08:18 AM
With all this talk about end-game and limit restriction but lets not lose focus on the small fleet fights, and often battles with support ships in them.

Have you ever flied a shuttle versus a hound? or a Valkyrie versus a buffalo? Its also very fun and player battle skill and execution of tactics pay off, rather than farming and sticking weapons on your biggest ship.

Are we going to have a point where we are flying civilian fleets like construction rigs, flying in a hound and trying to defend them against fighters or something?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 25, 2015, 09:02:34 AM
So, IIRC, one point of the logistics rating mechanic was to present the player with a gradual choice: A small but elite fleet (high LR means increased CR) or a big fleet with low CR. An interesting choice.
Are there new incentives to stay small? The sensor mechanic doesn't seem to be one, since while small fleets are less visible, they also have less sensor range.

I'd not like to end up feeling like I'm doing something stupid when I run solo or just with a few escorts.

Two obvious and relatively minor ones are maintenance costs and fuel use for travel.

Sensors *are*, I think, a mechanic that can reward smaller fleets. Say you're trying to sneak into a hostile port to trade (or simply running dark to avoid customs). Your transponder is off, but any patrols flying around have theirs on, which gives them a +1000 to visibility range. Your sensor range doesn't matter as much here - you'll always see them before they see you - but a smaller sensor profile will give you more of an opportunity to sneak in without being seen. For a concrete example, if there's a patrol orbiting a market, a smaller sensor profile could be the difference between being able to come in unseen from the opposite side or not.

Similar stuff applies if you're just sneaking about in a hostile system. Easier to sneak up on someone that has a transponder on, easier to avoid someone stronger.

Finally, as I mentioned in another reply, some abilities (currently: Emergency Burn) have a cost that scales with fleet size, in this case fuel equivalent to traveling one light-year in hyperspace and CR equivalent to a single deployment for every ship in the fleet. A larger fleet is going to have to be extra careful about using this. I think an ideal small fleet would consist of a combat ship or two and a combat freighter (and, perhaps, a small tanker) to extend longevity. (Hmm, that reminds me - now that "civilian grade hulls" are a thing, might make sense to have a combat tanker, as well. One that doesn't suffer from the various sensor strength/profile penalties.)



Are we going to have a point where we are flying civilian fleets like construction rigs, flying in a hound and trying to defend them against fighters or something?

Well, Construction Rigs don't have much of a point now, and you generally move on from Hounds as soon as you can afford something better. I do like the small-scale stuff myself, though, so ultimately I'd like to extend that feeling you get before your war machine "kicks in" and you can afford anything and steamroll everything.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on June 25, 2015, 09:28:21 AM
Something I've been thinking about recently is that for small-scale gameplay to really work well, there needs to be a softer line between losing a ship and not. If you have 20 ships, losing one or two in a battle is acceptable, if you have three, losing one of them is devastating, so the only outcomes a battle can usually have are full success or disaster (since a ship taking severe damage but surviving at 1% hull is so much less punishing than losing it).

If there was a much larger middle ground between damaged and gone - with ships harder to destroy, but potentially taking on long-term damage that's inconvenient and expensive to repair - that would work a lot better. I think there was an extended discussion about it recently.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 25, 2015, 09:58:20 AM
Yeah, I've seen the discussion, I think. Then you could make ships much harder to acquire, too - more expensive, rare, etc. It'd be neat if getting a Lasher felt like a major accomplishment, for example. It feels like that stage of the game passes by too quickly at the moment.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on June 25, 2015, 10:14:52 AM
So, IIRC, one point of the logistics rating mechanic was to present the player with a gradual choice: A small but elite fleet (high LR means increased CR) or a big fleet with low CR. An interesting choice.
Are there new incentives to stay small? The sensor mechanic doesn't seem to be one, since while small fleets are less visible, they also have less sensor range.
This just reminded me of another reason why I liked LR: At 150% LR, you had 10% extra CR. Are we going to have something similar like that with the new system?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 25, 2015, 10:18:40 AM
Nope. You can still get to 100% with elite crew and 10 Combat, though.

... actually, officers might count as "something similar", in that they can have a combat aptitude and thus increase their ship's max CR.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on June 25, 2015, 10:20:13 AM
Nope. You can still get to 100% with elite crew and 10 Combat, though.
Is this for only my flagship or my whole fleet?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 25, 2015, 10:22:48 AM
Your flagship or a ship with an officer with the Combat aptitude on it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on June 25, 2015, 12:33:29 PM
On the trails thing... have you considered using a geometry shader and just maintaining long points lists? 

From your description, it sounds like each trail is requiring a lot of math steps to smooth out and deal with various issues, and it's (usually) cheaper to simply allow for a single segment per frame and simply cull frames faster for some trails (say, fast-movers where you might have hundreds of segments active if they take several seconds to fade out). 

The cost issue there can really be mitigated by merely sending in sets of points, start width and segment decay values to a geometry shader.  Then you're merely getting the new point, aging all the points and the shader handles creating the first / last segments and fades them out. 

Then points lists can be de-coupled from engines per se; they can be started / killed whenever engines aren't in forward motion, and if they're per-frame, the results should be pretty smooth.  Even if we're talking dozens of ships and missiles, the CPU load's small and the GPU-side stuff is very cheap, because it's not doing any big trig.

With one segment per frame, you generally won't have issues with severe angles between three points causing weirdness, too.

Really wish I had time to build an example of this for this engine right now, but RL is being a little extra-harsh timewise lately :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on June 25, 2015, 12:49:19 PM
Well, for one, not using shaders for anything, and not planning to start this late in the game :) For two, I really think this is the sort of thing that seems easier than it is. For example, I think creating one segment per frame might lead to *more* problems, not less, if the points are moving (and they are). I mean, you'd still be constructing some kind of geometry in the shader based on the point + width list, whether it's implicit (i.e. in a fragment shader) or explicit, right? And the problems come up when trying to construct a reasonable-looking geometry based on the points + widths. I don't see where the problems magically go away when using a shader, though it's very possible I'm missing something - my experience with shaders is very limited.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on June 25, 2015, 01:47:56 PM
It'd be neat if getting a Lasher felt like a major accomplishment, for example. It feels like that stage of the game passes by too quickly at the moment.


*vigorous nodding*  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SatchelCharge on June 25, 2015, 01:52:23 PM
I do like the small-scale stuff myself, though, so ultimately I'd like to extend that feeling you get before your war machine "kicks in" and you can afford anything and steamroll everything.

Yeah, I've seen the discussion, I think. Then you could make ships much harder to acquire, too - more expensive, rare, etc. It'd be neat if getting a Lasher felt like a major accomplishment, for example. It feels like that stage of the game passes by too quickly at the moment.

Agree agree agree  :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on June 25, 2015, 02:17:00 PM
Quote
It'd be neat if getting a Lasher felt like a major accomplishment, for example. It feels like that stage of the game passes by too quickly at the moment.

I like the sound of that... The concern, however, is we're still gonna be killing other people's lashers basically every day of the week.

if anything the difficulty of acquiring a ship should be proportional to the difficulty of losing one.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on June 25, 2015, 06:08:10 PM
Do not forget weapons.  I rather lose a Lasher than a railgun or light needler.  Some weapons are rarer than some ships.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on June 26, 2015, 06:22:28 AM
Indeed... How come a Tri-Tachyon military market doesn't have an AM Blaster.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: obo on June 26, 2015, 11:58:29 AM
When can we download the latest version?  ;)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on June 26, 2015, 12:56:33 PM
When can we download the latest version?  ;)

Sometime "soon"... but I think not very soon. Exact dates can't be had, unfortunately.



It feels like that stage of the game passes by too quickly at the moment.


Another approach besides lengthening the early frigate phase would be to give reasons to (temporarily) revert to it. For example restricted zones were only small/civilian fleets may operate. Or just missions that require you to be inconspicuous. Or this old idea about using a frigate to get help after your fleet has run out of fuel in some remote system.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on June 26, 2015, 01:18:03 PM
There is a reason to go back to a lone frigate late in the game.  If you lose too much reputation due to food glut or smuggling, go to Corvus or some other pirate infested system, take a lone Wolf or other 5 DP frigate, hunt down every last pirate scout, and kill them for reputation.  Scouts run away if you have more than 10 or so DP worth of ships, but not if you have a frigate or two.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on June 27, 2015, 09:21:09 AM
Well, I wasn't so much thinking of the late- or end-game, but more looking for a good reason to not try to get "as many ships as possible, as fast as possible".
I missed this but...

I have a reason to not get as many ships fast as possible.  I love my max Combat/Technology skills so much, I max them first in every game.  I cannot stand how weak skill-less ships are to the point that I refuse to play missions anymore.  I totally ignore all other skills until Combat and Technology are max.  By then, experience gains are slow and I already raised relations to the max, so I better get more ships or else level grinding will be hideously slow, slower than a big fleet can earn.  Of course, the problem with no Leadership, aside from slower XP gain, is player is stuck with so few ships (and cannot even use battleships) and must chain flagships to kill the enemy.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on June 28, 2015, 10:29:33 AM
I have a reason to not get as many ships fast as possible.  I love my max Combat/Technology skills so much, I max them first in every game.

That reason will be gone with the update, since you won't need skills to have a big fleet anymore. Hence my concern.


In the end, I hope there will just be a lot of little in-universe benefits in going with a small fleet. People reacting differently to you and many cracks and crevices you can slip through only with a small fleet.


That said, one mechanic I can envision is a negative relationship between fleet size and chance to repair disabled ships. Small fleets are more likely to recover disabled ships than big fleets.



Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on June 28, 2015, 05:24:36 PM
That said, one mechanic I can envision is a negative relationship between fleet size and chance to repair disabled ships. Small fleets are more likely to recover disabled ships than big fleets.

That doesn't really make any sense.

However, the same effect could be accomplished by tying chance of ship recovery to crew skill. It will always be easier to have elite crews for fewer ships than more.

IIRC, fighter wings get more replacements based on the eliteness of their crews, so there would be some parallelism there.

Edit: Hmm, might make sense to use the same mechanic to determine which enemy ships could be taken as prizes. The rest of boarding/salvaging enemy ships would still need a rework, but it's a start.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Shedovv on June 29, 2015, 11:35:26 AM
*reads about hard cap on fleet size*

Can that stuff be edited via fiddling with game files? If not then I have another question.

Can I get a refund? I didn't buy this game to run tiny it's bitsy fleets. I always go big. D:
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: null on June 29, 2015, 12:15:15 PM
Right. It's just the game's way of saying, "don't have that many ships, ok?" Intentionally gamey and without any in-lore justification. It's a small and clear rule, and seems a fair tradeoff for the amount of cleanup it allows. It *is* configurable through settings.json, though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Shedovv on June 29, 2015, 12:28:26 PM
Right. It's just the game's way of saying, "don't have that many ships, ok?" Intentionally gamey and without any in-lore justification. It's a small and clear rule, and seems a fair tradeoff for the amount of cleanup it allows. It *is* configurable through settings.json, though.

Dayum, this was on page 8 and I got into it from page 9. Well that's alrighty then.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Shoat on June 30, 2015, 08:29:37 AM
*reads about hard cap on fleet size*

Can that stuff be edited via fiddling with game files? If not then I have another question.

Can I get a refund? I didn't buy this game to run tiny it's bitsy fleets. I always go big. D:

Considering how you can mod almost everything in the entire game to your liking (you can even re-activated old and now-unused features again, just like how it was with ammo), it's very likely that you can adjust this yourself somehow.

However, it sounded like it was some sort of UI-restriction, so it might be that the ships you have beyond the cap are not visible in all parts of the UI (the 'main' fleet window probably won't show them, but the old refit-list where you can just scroll up and down should still work for them).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on June 30, 2015, 08:52:50 AM
The main fleet window can already show 30+ ships, I am 100% sure that won't change.

And, as Alex has already said:
Quote
Fleet size hard-limited to 25 ships total
I really hope this is amenable to a mod-side variable change. 

As I mentioned in one of my previous, it is - a value in settings.json.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: sirboomalot on June 30, 2015, 09:26:29 PM
25 ships max!? How ever will I hound the biggest fleets to death solely with hounds if I can't outnumber their ships 5-1!? 


On a more serious note, I am very much hyped for all the things that will be added with the upcoming update. Just can't wait to be kiiiiiing?! to see them in action.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on July 01, 2015, 01:23:26 AM
You guys do realize with more then 40 ships from both sides the game will already grind to a halt and become unplayable right?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: sirboomalot on July 01, 2015, 02:51:45 AM
You say that like I haven't already reached such numbers in previous save-games, at least with my own fleet. Frigate swarms are my favorite thing to do in starsector.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on July 01, 2015, 05:19:10 AM
I have used 40+ frigate hordes before and I get minor slowdown.  Much rather have minor slowdown than a frigate horde made unviable due to pesky battle size limit.  (I do not like frigate hordes for their sake, I like them because they are the most powerful fleet in the game except Atlas fleet in trade runs.)

What slows my computer most is if I have a carrier fleet filled mostly of Talon wings.  More annoying is they are nowhere near as effective as a frigate horde.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on July 01, 2015, 08:33:15 AM
You guys do realize with more then 40 ships from both sides the game will already grind to a halt and become unplayable right?

I just got a new computer. Excuse me while I go queue up a 100 ship battle. 8) :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 01, 2015, 12:50:26 PM
Well, for comparison, I have an overclocked i7 5960X and can just barely average 60 fps in a size-400 battle involving about 45 ships total at any given time (bunched together in a full-on melee).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on July 01, 2015, 02:35:44 PM
Well, for comparison, I have an overclocked i7 5960X and can just barely average 60 fps in a size-400 battle involving about 45 ships total at any given time (bunched together in a full-on melee).

I was exaggerating, of course. Right in the thick of things in an 800 DP battle (about 76 ships and 62 individual fighters) I saw drops down to at least 30 fps when there was probably about 20 ships and fighters on screen with associated projectiles. However, when there weren't so many ships on screen I had a solid 60 fps, so I'm pretty sure most performance drops are on the GPU's end rather than the CPU's. Although, I have a GeForce GTX 970, so maybe the trouble with rendering at 60 fps is on the game engine's end, but that's wild speculation on my part.

Spoiler
Or maybe it isn't... Alex, do I correctly recall you saying that the game throttles down to 30 fps under certain conditions or am I going crazier than usual?
[close]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 01, 2015, 02:39:20 PM
Or maybe it isn't... Alex, do I correctly recall you saying that the game throttles down to 30 fps under certain conditions or am I going crazier than usual?

It goes to 30 when it can't hit 60 - you're pretty unlikely to hit a steady frame rate that's >30 and <60. If it drops below 30, the game enters a slow-time mode where the engine advances by 1/30th of a second each frame regardless of how long it actually took. So if you're at 15 fps, it would run at half speed.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 01, 2015, 02:50:57 PM
The GPU is not your bottleneck.  Additional OpenGL rendering calls are pinning your CPU for more than your GPU.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on July 01, 2015, 04:21:57 PM
The GPU is not your bottleneck.  Additional OpenGL rendering calls are pinning your CPU for more than your GPU.

Okay. I can see how getting that thrown at the CPU on top of everything else would cause slowdown. :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on July 02, 2015, 02:09:55 AM
So what is so taxing on CPU? AI?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DatonKallandor on July 02, 2015, 05:55:35 AM
Generally for these kinds of games it's path finding (which includes regular collision avoidance checks), regular hit detection checks for every projectile currently in flight, regular aiming calculations for every weapon all of which feeds back into the AI deciding what to do on a regular basis. The more objects the more stuff there is to check and it scales upwards pretty hard.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Debido on July 02, 2015, 05:58:32 AM
The biggest CPU hog is the rendering engine.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 02, 2015, 07:43:36 AM
The biggest CPU hog is the rendering engine.
Yep.  The biggest CPU items, assuming you have ShaderLib turned up to full blast are:

1. Rendering overhead
2. Ship/Weapon/Admiral AI (total)
3. ShaderLib
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on July 02, 2015, 08:03:56 AM
AFAIK, SS uses legacy fixed-function, immediate-mode OpenGL which is... inefficient, to put it mildly. Lots and lots of API calls and GPU <-> CPU data traffic that could be completely avoided with more modern techniques. This causes a lot of overhead even with relatively simple 2D graphics.

On the other hand, modern OpenGL is hugely demanding in terms of development time and very specific skills, so it was probably a good decision to not use it. I'd rather have a game about whose performance I can complain than no game at all because the highly complex engine required for modern graphics APIs got stuck in development hell.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 02, 2015, 09:18:23 AM
AFAIK, SS uses legacy fixed-function, immediate-mode OpenGL which is... inefficient, to put it mildly. Lots and lots of API calls and GPU <-> CPU data traffic that could be completely avoided with more modern techniques. This causes a lot of overhead even with relatively simple 2D graphics.

On the other hand, modern OpenGL is hugely demanding in terms of development time and very specific skills, so it was probably a good decision to not use it. I'd rather have a game about whose performance I can complain than no game at all because the highly complex engine required for modern graphics APIs got stuck in development hell.

(Just as a side note (and in my defense!), SS also uses vertex arrays and such in some performance-critical places. Where not a lot of vertices are involved (i.e. rendering simple sprites) immediate mode doesn't seem to do any worse. Stuff with more vertices (such as ship damage decals) it does make a big difference to use vertex arrays. And shaders... you can do neat stuff that you can't with fixed-function, but can you do the basics like rendering sprites faster? You'd still have to send the same vertex data over to the GPU, so I'm not sure where the speed improvement would happen.

But, yeah, as you say, it's just one of those things where going with what I know how to do just made sense.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on July 02, 2015, 10:29:49 AM
Client vertex arrays (which I assume you meant, it's a bit ambiguous with unrelated Vertex Array Objects also existing), while a whole lot better than direct vertex specification, are actually also immediate mode and very slow in comparison to retained-mode buffer objects. The difference being that with vertex arrays, you re-send the data every time you draw it, while with buffer objects you send it once and then refer to it via a handle. It's a huge PITA to set up and manage, but the performance gains are stunning - draw commands are just a tiny handful of bytes and are fully asynchronous. For example, the very basic integrated Intel graphics card in my laptop can easily draw 5 million triangles at 60 frames per second if they're all in one retained buffer.

Shaders by themselves are not inherently faster than fixed-function (although more flexibility always means more space for optimization tricks) but I mentioned them because retained-mode requires them, it doesn't work with fixed-function.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 02, 2015, 11:04:36 AM
Client vertex arrays (which I assume you meant, it's a bit ambiguous with unrelated Vertex Array Objects also existing), while a whole lot better than direct vertex specification, are actually also immediate mode and very slow in comparison to retained-mode buffer objects. The difference being that with vertex arrays, you re-send the data every time you draw it, while with buffer objects you send it once and then refer to it via a handle. It's a huge PITA to set up and manage, but the performance gains are stunning - draw commands are just a tiny handful of bytes and are fully asynchronous. For example, the very basic integrated Intel graphics card in my laptop can easily draw 5 million triangles at 60 frames per second if they're all in one retained buffer.

Yeah, I meant client-side, not VBOs (didn't realize that was also called immediate mode, thanks for pointing that out!). I did actually try VBOs for some things - the speed was very similar to client-side arrays, though I suspect it's the sort of thing where it can start to matter more when you scale up. (Actually had an issue with VBO with some graphics drivers (on a Mac) where it was literally 100x slower than straight glVertex2f calls, though I'd hope that's fixed by now.)

The bigger problem with VBO usefulness is having to stick with a single texture. A VBO with 4 vertices in it isn't really worth it, performance-wise. Those 5 million triangles wouldn't render so quickly if they were split into 2.5 million VBOs, you know? :) And that's kind of what you're stuck with, in sprite land. You could create a sprite sheet/atlas and batch things up that way, but that's 1) a big pain content-creation-wise and 2) makes things much harder to make mod-friendly. Imagine if all the weapons were in a sheet - they'd certainly fit, and it could make the "draw all weapons" part of ship rendering faster (heck, even without VBO use - just not having to bind new textures all the time would be a savings), but how would you go about mods adding new weapons in a setup like that?

Hmm. I guess you'd create a new texture with all the weapons at load-time, so that's doable, even if the problem of laying them out in the new texture ranges from "hard" to "NP-hard", depending on how efficient you need to be with the space. If weapon rendering was a big issue, then that might be worthwhile (but very time-consuming) optimization to make. It gets messier when you need things rendered in a particular order, though... like, for weapons, you've got the weapon sprites in a specific order, but then you've also got damage decals interleaved if there's damage.

... all of which, I suppose, falls right under "It's a huge PITA to set up and manage" :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on July 02, 2015, 11:25:12 AM
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Texture atlasing, even dynamic, can definitely be done successfully (have you played Supreme Commander? all of its UI is drawn with a single draw call!) but it's probably way outside of what a single-person project can afford to spend time on.

I'm absolutely not criticizing you for using older graphics techniques, it's still a very valid choice for 2D, I just wanted to explain to others why graphics may be significant to Starsector's performance even though it's 2D and not nearly as visually complex as modern 3D games - because those 3D games have dozens of programmers working on them and can afford to do things in a much, much more complex way.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 02, 2015, 11:46:49 AM
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Texture atlasing, even dynamic, can definitely be done successfully (have you played Supreme Commander? all of its UI is drawn with a single draw call!) but it's probably way outside of what a single-person project can afford to spend time on.

Whoa, that's impressive!

I'm absolutely not criticizing you for using older graphics techniques, it's still a very valid choice for 2D, I just wanted to explain to others why graphics may be significant to Starsector's performance even though it's 2D and not nearly as visually complex as modern 3D games - because those 3D games have dozens of programmers working on them and can afford to do things in a much, much more complex way.

Right, definitely didn't take it in a negative way, and besides, criticism is a positive thing if it's constructive. Learned a couple of things, and just wanted to chime in with some related stuff :) And yeah, I think 2D has a reputation for being easy on the GPU which really isn't warranted, especially with how the GPU is going to be optimized to handle higher-poly 3D stuff. Then (as you've pretty much exactly said) it's like, well, can I afford to make something literally 10x more complex in dev-time to get a bit more performance out of it? Considering how often I'm coding up random little things using OpenGL to make this or that look a specific way, that'd be untenable.


Speaking of coding up random things using OpenGL, something I'm working on now:
Spoiler
(http://giant.gfycat.com/BaggyImpressiveDuckbillcat.gif)
[close]

Still experimental/a work in progress.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on July 02, 2015, 11:51:00 AM
Oooh, hyperspace currents?  That seems useful!  ...And dangerous, of course.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 02, 2015, 11:55:14 AM
That's a pretty good guess! Curious, did you read it as going up, or sideways? Looking at it again, it kind of looks like a tube, which is interesting, but different than the idea, which is something like a wavefront.

A more recent (as of about 2 minutes ago) version, with a bit of a wake to hopefully sell what's going on better:

Spoiler
(http://giant.gfycat.com/HiddenEuphoricDegu.gif)
[close]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on July 02, 2015, 12:10:34 PM
Yeah, the first one seemed to be revolving, this one is much more like a wave. Instantly reminds me of the Klingon moon explosion from Star Trek VI: (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/29/Praxis_effect.jpg).

But yours looks prettier. Can you use it to travel? While trying not to die? That would be awesome :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on July 02, 2015, 12:16:09 PM
That's a pretty good guess! Curious, did you read it as going up, or sideways? Looking at it again, it kind of looks like a tube, which is interesting, but different than the idea, which is something like a wavefront.
I read it as a tube that was going up, a sort of a moving hyperstring thing that one could try to hitch a ride on.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 02, 2015, 12:18:34 PM
But yours looks prettier. Can you use it to travel? While trying not to die? That would be awesome :)

That's actually the point of the wavefront, but shhh, don't tell anyone! Wouldn't want someone to be disappointed if it didn't pan out. Trying to get new gameplay to feel right is tricky, and I haven't even gotten to that point yet - still ironing out some visual bugs.

Plus it might end up looking totally different, depending on if David wants to take an axe to it or not.


I read it as a tube that was going up, a sort of a moving hyperstring thing that one could try to hitch a ride on.

Ah, cool - so not too far off from what was intended.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on July 02, 2015, 01:01:12 PM
Gif2 looks like bigger tube that revolves slower and leaves stuff behind :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on July 02, 2015, 01:12:50 PM
Gif2 looks like bigger tube that revolves slower and leaves stuff behind :)

"Dang it! We fell out of the tube again!" -starship captain
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 02, 2015, 01:14:21 PM
Well, fair enough :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on July 02, 2015, 01:26:30 PM
I think it needs a bow wave like in those pictures of the Navy's railgun firing if it wants to sell itself as a big powerful hyperspace wave.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 02, 2015, 03:53:01 PM
Automatic texture atlasing can be useful even for immediate mode due to the lack of repeated texture bindings.

The method to go about it is to have the game build a texture atlas on startup, procedurally sticking textures together on panels of (whatever size the video can handle) with an index pointing to texture and coords.  Then the draw calls need to be ordered such that all of the draws that use a particular atlas texture are done first, then the next, and so on.  Order doesn't matter for appearance because objects would have a 3-dimensional location; the third dimension would just determine height order.

The true savings are when you have a huge number of small sprites.  Such as particles.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on July 02, 2015, 09:31:00 PM
I believe the Minecraft did that for its block textures, right?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: selkathguy on July 06, 2015, 03:47:49 PM
I'm chomping at the bit for this update...  Every single day I check for its release!
Thank you Alex for your work, and keep going!  After this update I'm going to vigorously push this game onto like 30 friends.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 06, 2015, 08:31:24 PM
I'm chomping at the bit for this update...  Every single day I check for its release!
Thank you Alex for your work, and keep going!  After this update I'm going to vigorously push this game onto like 30 friends.

Thanks for your kind words! Looking forward to this release myself :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on July 06, 2015, 08:52:22 PM
Hey, whatever can take some weight off those shoddy ATI OpenGL drivers gets a big yes from me. Though I suppose optimization should come last, after the dust has settled?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 06, 2015, 10:28:59 PM
Any kind of "build texture atlas on startup" stuff is pretty unlikely. Just always going to be stuff that's higher-priority, likely even in terms of optimization.

(Edit: what I mean to say, more explicitly, is that I'm not liking how the "bang for buck" ratio of this particular optimization looks. As far as optimizing stuff, really, it's something I do all along the way; most releases contain a number of performance boosts in various areas. Which are often cancelled out by new features, but hey, that's how it goes!)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Abradolf Lincler on July 07, 2015, 12:21:54 PM
I'm chomping at the bit for this update...  Every single day I check for its release!
Thank you Alex for your work, and keep going!  After this update I'm going to vigorously push this game onto like 30 friends.

Thanks for your kind words! Looking forward to this release myself :)

I too check the blog every day just hoping for the update to be there. Thank you for making such a great game for us to play.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BHunterSEAL on July 07, 2015, 07:10:14 PM
I'm chomping at the bit for this update...  Every single day I check for its release!
Thank you Alex for your work, and keep going!  After this update I'm going to vigorously push this game onto like 30 friends.

Thanks for your kind words! Looking forward to this release myself :)

I too check the blog every day just hoping for the update to be there. Thank you for making such a great game for us to play.

I would gladly buy this game another three or four times over if it would help Alex progress through development... I'll admit, I'm awaiting this update as anxiously as I looked forward to the introduction of Campaign Mode.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 07, 2015, 08:07:23 PM
Thank you guys, that means a lot :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on July 10, 2015, 04:20:13 PM
I have a small question regarding the Officers and modding: Will it be possible to force the assignment of an Officer? By that I mean will it be possible for example to recruit a mercenary officer that comes with his own ship and prevent the player from reassigning him elsewhere?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 10, 2015, 04:54:42 PM
It won't, though I suppose you could hack around it (say, always reassign the officer to their original ship with a script). Seems like this could come in handy, though, I'll keep it in mind.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Kirschbra on July 10, 2015, 09:35:47 PM
I'm chomping at the bit for this update...  Every single day I check for its release!
Thank you Alex for your work, and keep going!  After this update I'm going to vigorously push this game onto like 30 friends.

Thanks for your kind words! Looking forward to this release myself :)

I too check the blog every day just hoping for the update to be there. Thank you for making such a great game for us to play.

I would gladly buy this game another three or four times over if it would help Alex progress through development... I'll admit, I'm awaiting this update as anxiously as I looked forward to the introduction of Campaign Mode.

Is there a way to give donations?  I check hoping 3-4 times a week for this update, it's going to be so great!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on July 10, 2015, 10:06:36 PM
Buy the game for your friends!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on July 11, 2015, 12:13:32 AM
It won't, though I suppose you could hack around it (say, always reassign the officer to their original ship with a script). Seems like this could come in handy, though, I'll keep it in mind.
The same way we prevent the installation of certain hullmods in some mods I suppose. Not great considering the lack of UI indications, but doable.

If you need more incentive to do that, it could be also useful for stuff like escort/passenger VIP missions where their ship joins your fleet, or AI/living ships that have a personality and skills...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 12, 2015, 09:29:45 AM
Is there a way to give donations?  I check hoping 3-4 times a week for this update, it's going to be so great!

There isn't - I appreciate the sentiment (a lot!) but it doesn't feel right. But hey, if you spread the word to your friends or buy them some copies, then I certainly wouldn't complain :)


It won't, though I suppose you could hack around it (say, always reassign the officer to their original ship with a script). Seems like this could come in handy, though, I'll keep it in mind.
The same way we prevent the installation of certain hullmods in some mods I suppose. Not great considering the lack of UI indications, but doable.

If you need more incentive to do that, it could be also useful for stuff like escort/passenger VIP missions where their ship joins your fleet, or AI/living ships that have a personality and skills...

Right, yep - that's exactly the context I've been thinking about it being potentially "handy".
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on July 12, 2015, 10:11:11 PM
There isn't - I appreciate the sentiment (a lot!) but it doesn't feel right. But hey, if you spread the word to your friends or buy them some copies, then I certainly wouldn't complain :)

Alex is saying... Buy one copy for each of your friends (in your head)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Protonus on July 12, 2015, 10:20:57 PM
Alex is saying... Buy one copy for each of your friends then throw them on their heads.

Uh... fixed? :D


Still, I love to see some new folks introduced here in the community and so do I still love the development of the game to reach a very successful turn point by the time this game gets fully released. The mechanics are truly management worthy, unlike most of the games, this one goes incredible in-depth with your fleet and not tediously paying attention to large armies in a single empire kind of RTS, which is incredibly painful in the butt.

Starsector is really a hidden gem, and for those who actually find this will be worth playing. As most Survival and RTS games, separately, just barely scratched the surface, while this game is already mining for precious ore, so to speak.

Possibly the reason why I came back after not playing for a quite a while. Who knows.

I sounded a little bit cheesy right now. Forgive me. :-[
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on July 14, 2015, 03:04:28 PM
Will we see some vanilla ships with hybrid slots this release?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Bishi on July 16, 2015, 06:58:37 AM
I'm chomping at the bit for this update...  Every single day I check for its release!
Thank you Alex for your work, and keep going!  After this update I'm going to vigorously push this game onto like 30 friends.

Thanks for your kind words! Looking forward to this release myself :)

I too check the blog every day just hoping for the update to be there. Thank you for making such a great game for us to play.

I would gladly buy this game another three or four times over if it would help Alex progress through development... I'll admit, I'm awaiting this update as anxiously as I looked forward to the introduction of Campaign Mode.

Is there a way to give donations?  I check hoping 3-4 times a week for this update, it's going to be so great!

Haha yep me too - this is always my filler game, I play it repeatedly between AAA releases (which I often only ever play once) and I'm always after an update!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Flomaster on July 17, 2015, 01:07:39 PM
I just cant wait for the next update  ;D bought the game 1 week ago totally love it and i look forward to the next adventure  :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Abradolf Lincler on July 20, 2015, 06:51:00 PM
PLEASE ALEX, I N E E D the next update, at this point I am checking the blog every hour or so (I think I have a problem but that beside the point). I can feel myself dying and withering away without it. I have an addiction, that only you can fix.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 20, 2015, 07:18:44 PM
Will we see some vanilla ships with hybrid slots this release?

(Sorry, missed this question somehow.) Maybe? I've been thinking of a couple of candidates but haven't quite decided yet.

PLEASE ALEX, I N E E D the next update, at this point I am checking the blog every hour or so (I think I have a problem but that beside the point). I can feel myself dying and withering away without it. I have an addiction, that only you can fix.

Oh dear :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Protonus on July 20, 2015, 07:24:00 PM
PLEASE ALEX, I N E E D the next update, at this point I am checking the blog every hour or so (I think I have a problem but that beside the point). I can feel myself dying and withering away without it. I have an addiction, that only you can fix.

I don't think "Keep doing it" is a good idea to cure any kind of addiction, if you ask me.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Abradolf Lincler on July 20, 2015, 07:31:28 PM
PLEASE ALEX, I N E E D the next update, at this point I am checking the blog every hour or so (I think I have a problem but that beside the point). I can feel myself dying and withering away without it. I have an addiction, that only you can fix.

I don't think "Keep doing it" is a good idea to cure any kind of addiction, if you ask me.

But If I go into withdrawals I will DIE, I am in this for the long haul!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on July 20, 2015, 07:41:07 PM
(It's times like these when I'm hopeful that someone isn't being fully serious, but a part of me isn't quite 100% sure.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Protonus on July 20, 2015, 08:01:23 PM
Don't worry, I'm never sure of myself in every moment of my life.

But then again, I might need to reiterate myself.

*Inhales Version 0.65.2a*
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on July 20, 2015, 08:17:51 PM
A few years ago I thought I was doing bad with 2 days worth of time on the bay12 forum. I have 7 days here.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on July 20, 2015, 08:36:51 PM
A few years ago I thought I was doing bad with 2 days worth of time on the bay12 forum. I have 7 days here.
Heh, 68 days here, if you're going by the counter at the top of the forum. ;) I'm pretty eager for the next release, but I've learned to take the hit.  Sort of like, how when you get older, you gain more patience.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Protonus on July 20, 2015, 09:04:10 PM
Most of us, at least.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on July 21, 2015, 04:27:20 AM
I think once you reach my online time, you should probably take a break, hence why im not around much. :I
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SatchelCharge on July 21, 2015, 05:37:13 AM
I think once you reach 93 days online, you should probably take a break, hence why im not around much. :I

 :o   8)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on July 21, 2015, 06:07:59 AM
In order to help with those online times, I'm gonna close here for now ;)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 11:14:55 AM
Updated!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xeroshiva1029 on October 19, 2015, 11:17:48 AM
the update aint even out yet and its x-mas in my eyes. 11/10 =)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheDTYP on October 19, 2015, 11:34:11 AM
Uuuuuuuuuuuuuugh I waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaant!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Catattack998 on October 19, 2015, 11:41:24 AM
This is really going to be something! I think it's about time I start spriting a Space Battleship Yamato...

[Knowing that one day the update will be released fills you with cosmic determination!]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 19, 2015, 11:55:28 AM
Tartiflette has magical powers of prediction!
:D

I shall comb through this with a fine rake.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on October 19, 2015, 12:00:12 PM
That new missile cruiser + new AMMO_RELOAD ship system sounds ominous. Can't wait for the update!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 12:01:17 PM
That new missile cruiser + new AMMO_RELOAD ship system sounds ominous.

Hey, I was wondering if someone would connect the dots :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 19, 2015, 12:02:28 PM
"Hostile to player, but individual fleets may be bought off with a "tithe""

Oh hell yes.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Adraius on October 19, 2015, 12:03:53 PM
Wow, you got one change before I even had a chance to ask for it: system bounties lasting for longer. =) The reward's upper bound is getting lower, but I think that's reasonable.  Are you willing to share the new time window?

EDIT: regarding the new graphics for some ships, are these updated 'primary' sprites, or alternative color schemes?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 19, 2015, 12:24:25 PM
Yay! in general, Yay! to this

Many missions updated; extensive backstory added
especially ('cause unexpected) and many more Yays! to follow when I have more time ;D

Just one thing:
Fighting a faction's enemies in their system will no longer improve reputation with them

What does "their" system mean here, the system of the hostile faction or of the faction you want to impress?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on October 19, 2015, 12:32:24 PM
Like the Tarsus, the Condor's right side small slot is offset too, IIRC.

Can't wait to see the new missiles. :)

Yay! in general, Yay! to this

Many missions updated; extensive backstory added
especially ('cause unexpected) and many more Yays! to follow when I have more time ;D
Didn't see that; that's awesome!





Now for a big rant I should've posted a long time ago, but I was waiting for the patch notes to update ::)

I think the previous speed nerf and now a health nerf will make the Pilum useless. The original reason I liked Pilums was because they could catch up with all but the fastest retreating ships and force them to activate their shields. Obviously the reason they're being nerfed is because swarms of them are/were too effective (although part of that was the player fleet consistently being more powerful than the fleets it was fighting). One of the main reasons swarms of them were so deadly was because, although they weren't super maneuverable, they were accurate enough to keep up with frigates.

I've been playing with a set of stats provided here on the forums that gave them back their speed, but severely reduced their maneuverability, and I've found them to be quite fun. They're threatening, but so easy to dodge I've seen them miss an Atlas on the first pass and then endlessly circle it unable to turn tight enough to hit it.

I've attached what should be all the relevant files if someone wants to take a look. I can't remember nor find who came up with them, so if someone else can that would be awesome!

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 12:41:35 PM
EDIT: regarding the new graphics for some ships, are these updated 'primary' sprites, or alternative color schemes?

Primary (and so, where appropriate, the skins as well).

What does "their" system mean here, the system of the hostile faction or of the faction you want to impress?

The one you want to impress. Basically thinking that "helping allies in battle" replaces this.



(Re: Pilums - there's a bug in the current version where their flight time is half of what it should be.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on October 19, 2015, 12:54:45 PM
The new Assault Chaingun looks interesting - something like 400 dps now, but only at very close range. I'm guessing it was the individual shots that were made more powerful, not the fire rate, so it punches through armor better than before. For most use cases the Mauler will still be better due to range, but I'm glad its getting its damage lowered.

What ships are going to be good with it - perhaps something fast in order to close range. Hound vs Hound battles are going to be super deadly with them lol. I do note that the HMG and it share 450 range - perhaps as a matched pair on the front of a Hammerhead or Falcon? I doubt Enforcers will have the speed to use it (or the flux stats).

I'm looking forward to a Hammerhead with more ballistic capable mounts - the ship has needed a bit of a boost for a while, and they will combine nicely with its ship system.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on October 19, 2015, 01:06:57 PM
(Re: Pilums - there's a bug in the current version where their flight time is half of what it should be.)

I think I was the one who pointed that bug out. ;)

I'm looking forward to a Hammerhead with more ballistic capable mounts - the ship has needed a bit of a boost for a while, and they will combine nicely with its ship system.

Being able to stick Light Assault Guns or Autocannons/Railguns/Needlers in those front small slots will be fun.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on October 19, 2015, 01:15:28 PM
I always felt the Falcon was a bit undergunned. This is nice. Can't wait to see the new ship sprites and the missile cruiser!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on October 19, 2015, 01:16:59 PM
(Re: Pilums - there's a bug in the current version where their flight time is half of what it should be.)

I think I was the one who pointed that bug out. ;)

I'm looking forward to a Hammerhead with more ballistic capable mounts - the ship has needed a bit of a boost for a while, and they will combine nicely with its ship system.

Being able to stick Light Assault Guns or Autocannons/Railguns/Needlers in those front small slots will be fun.

I was thinking about HMG, Assault Chaingun, and 4 Vulcans. Good missile defense, but INSANE DPS if it can close with the target.  For a more standard build needlers or railguns will go a loooong way into giving it the kick it needs.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on October 19, 2015, 01:18:44 PM
Huh, ACG goes from "i dont have any maulers!" to "i'm completely CRAZY and i need to kill something RIGHT NOW RRARRRGLL"
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 19, 2015, 01:28:22 PM
Assorted comments:

Streamlining end-of-combat sounds good.  75% CR back does seem like an incentive to over-deploy, but then again, I like chain-battling, which is why I over-deploy to spread the CR hit to everyone.

Does fighting Luddic Path affect reputation with the Luddic Church?  If not, yay!  More targets to fight!

Yay!  No more toll trolls.  No need to fool them anymore (by running away immediately after a scan starts).

MIRV changes sound like it has become the heavy Harpoon.

"Safety Overrides" sounds like it could be a dream for various playstyles, especially vent-spammers who load up on Heavy Blasters, depending on the stat mods and hullmod cost.

So it seems Assault Chaingun has become the HE counterpart to the Heavy Machine Gun.  I am a bit sad there is no 800 range compliment to the Heavy Autocannon/Needler.

Missile racks becoming cheaper sounds good.  I almost never use them because 5 OP was too much, especially when Annihilators were more effective for less.

IR Pulse Laser becoming cheaper is good.  Now I have a choice to sacrifice range for accuracy in case of universals.  I would probably still pick ballistics over IR pulse laser due to better range and no windup, but at least it is no longer a blatant no-brainer.

It seems high-end energy weapons are simply more range and +50% DPS over medium counterparts.

It is about time Ion Cannon got cheaper flux usage now that it lost flux supercharge bonus.

Heavy Mauler might have needed the nerf, though HVD may appear even more attractive.  Main reason to get Mauler over the more accurate HVD was the extra DPS (and fire rate for some ships).

I like that the (standard) Falcon will get two small energy mounts.  It will truly become a little Eagle instead of a bigger Hammerhead with less firepower.

P.S. It is about time ships piloted by super soldiers were worth more XP.  Earning less (than double) XP from Combat 10 monsters than easier old Hegemony defense fleets was a rip-off!  It might help even up the combat-trade disparity of XP gains.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 01:38:16 PM
I think I was the one who pointed that bug out. ;)

Ah, fair enough :)


The new Assault Chaingun looks interesting - something like 400 dps now, but only at very close range. I'm guessing it was the individual shots that were made more powerful, not the fire rate, so it punches through armor better than before. For most use cases the Mauler will still be better due to range, but I'm glad its getting its damage lowered.

What ships are going to be good with it - perhaps something fast in order to close range. Hound vs Hound battles are going to be super deadly with them lol. I do note that the HMG and it share 450 range - perhaps as a matched pair on the front of a Hammerhead or Falcon? I doubt Enforcers will have the speed to use it (or the flux stats).
"Safety Overrides" sounds like it could be a dream for various playstyles ...

That's the intention behind Safety Overrides - open up a new playstyle that trades long-term combat sustainability for more speed and double flux dissipation. It's fairly expensive, though (15/30/45, irrc), so it shouldn't be a no brainer.


Streamlining end-of-combat sounds good.  75% CR back does seem like an incentive to over-deploy, but then again, I like chain-battling, which is why I over-deploy to spread the CR hit to everyone.

It's not an incentive to over-deploy because of how the calculation works. It's based on each *ship's* FP vs the *total* enemy FP destroyed.

Does fighting Luddic Path affect reputation with the Luddic Church?  If not, yay!  More targets to fight!

It doesn't. They're  entirely small-time, though.


MIRV changes sound like it has become the heavy Harpoon.

Yep, exactly. It's quite brutal.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 19, 2015, 01:39:45 PM
Question:  Is the new Assault Chaingun considered a PD weapon like the Heavy Machine Gun?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on October 19, 2015, 01:51:34 PM
Shouldn't the ACG have a slight reduction to flux cost (say, +35% instead of +50%)?  Low tech ships with those often had major issues keeping them going, and now you basically have to go all-in with vents to support one (assuming +50% flux).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: David on October 19, 2015, 02:00:58 PM
I always felt the Falcon was a bit undergunned. This is nice. Can't wait to see the new ship sprites and the missile cruiser!

Funny thing is adding the new turrets was a complete accident (at least on my part) due to basing the sprite on the Eagle and just porting the changes over to the Falcon w/o removing the turrets. Alex noticed them after I pushed the new sprite and decided to made them work.

MIRV changes sound like it has become the heavy Harpoon.

Oh man, it's rather monstrous now.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 02:06:28 PM
Question:  Is the new Assault Chaingun considered a PD weapon like the Heavy Machine Gun?

No.

Shouldn't the ACG have a slight reduction to flux cost (say, +35% instead of +50%)?  Low tech ships with those often had major issues keeping them going, and now you basically have to go all-in with vents to support one (assuming +50% flux).

Well, +%50% dps makes the damage output extremely high, to a point where it's beyond what the class is normally capable of. The idea is this *is* something you go all-in with; if you could comfortably run it without that it'd probably be overpowered. I'm not saying the balance of it is perfect now, though - it's probably not, and I expect to need to make more tweaks, especially with Safety Overrides in the picture. Erring on the side of caution for now.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 19, 2015, 02:12:10 PM
MIRV changes sound like it has become the heavy Harpoon.
Oh man, it's rather monstrous now.
More monstrous than Cyclone Reaper?  If not, I will probably stick with Cyclone Reapers for my flagship.  MIRVs is what I give to the less competent AI, or to a Conquest when I cannot turn it without disrupting the broadsides' firing.  Since MIRVs will not regenerate, I will probably downgrade to Pilums instead, unless the new large missile weapons are better.  (I tend to build ships for endurance and kiting, and limited ammo interferes with that.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 19, 2015, 02:40:34 PM
Some more comments:

Hireable officer personalities (i.e. combat behavior) now based on the faction of the planet on which they're located

Oh, interesting. Is this absolute (you can get an officer with skill XY only from faction YZ) or just a probability modifier? Does this affect the officers of the factions own fleets, too?


New graphics for Arbalest Autocannon

Good riddance, that blurry blob always bothered me. There are more blurry weapons btw, namely the Hellbore and the Light Mortar.

Added several new missile weapons (one small and two large)
Added new midline missile cruiser

We get a new doll with new makeup and dresses included!  ;D

Hammerhead: changed small energy mounts to hybrid (can slot in energy/ballistic)
Heavy Machinegun: reduced OP cost to 10, range increased to 450 (from 400)

Looking forward to testing that combination extensively.



Also, can we get a sneak preview of one of the new sprites? Pretty please? :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Lucian Greymark on October 19, 2015, 03:12:07 PM
Man... there's so damn much that's going to be added in the next patch. So much more stuff for modders to work with too! Very happy, keep it up
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on October 19, 2015, 03:30:12 PM
So much cool stuff in this patch. I was skeptical about the Assault Chaingun change but decided to try it out changing the stats of the current one (I assume you upped shot dmg to 60 and flux, not increasing ROF) and it's actually a more viable weapon in every way. Of course it's better at killing smaller targets that have smaller flux pools than you, but it's def. amazing in player hands. Might be worth it on something like a super-high end Brawler with an Aggressive officer.

I really wish there was more frigs with oversize weapon mounts. A high end assault frigate with better PD than the Brawler (eg. Any PD At All)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 03:50:48 PM
Oh, interesting. Is this absolute (you can get an officer with skill XY only from faction YZ) or just a probability modifier? Does this affect the officers of the factions own fleets, too?

It's not skills - it's the probability for them to have a specific personality, which is one of timid/cautious/steady/aggressive.

Looking forward to testing that combination extensively.

The default "Balanced" Hammerhead is already making use of it, and it feels so much more effective than before. I'm sure there are a number of good ways to kit it out!

Also, can we get a sneak preview of one of the new sprites? Pretty please? :)

Attaching a screenshot of the new Enforcer; for bonus points it's got SO installed, which you can see from the color of the engine flames.


(I assume you upped shot dmg to 60 and flux, not increasing ROF)

Yep.

I really wish there was more frigs with oversize weapon mounts. A high end assault frigate with better PD than the Brawler (eg. Any PD At All)

Hmm. I actually kind of want more frigates with *just* small slots. It feels like small weapons don't get as much of a chance to shine as primary armament, which they're certainly capable of.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: HELMUT on October 19, 2015, 03:58:00 PM
"Hammer torpedoes" eh? I guess i can safely say that one of the large missile weapon will be an equivalent to the cyclone but with those new torpedoes.

I also see that the Enforcer got the Eagle treatment as well.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on October 19, 2015, 04:02:43 PM
Will Unstable Injectors and Augmented Engines also modify engine glows?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Adraius on October 19, 2015, 04:12:05 PM
Hmm. I actually kind of want more frigates with *just* small slots. It feels like small weapons don't get as much of a chance to shine as primary armament, which they're certainly capable of.
Huh, interesting.  I mean, three of my four favorite frigate setups are on ships with all small weapons, and there is something very fun about the closer engagement range and multi-weapon pew-pew-pewing those ships facilitate.  I'd be in favor of more small-weapon ships.

Five internet points say Hammer Torpedoes have knockback?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Lucian Greymark on October 19, 2015, 04:32:06 PM
I'm a big fan of frigates with all small mounts. Especially with lots of ballistic rapid fire weapons *drools slightly*

Hem, yes well. The plentiful machine-guns make for excellent viewing
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 19, 2015, 04:32:49 PM
Re: Small slots
Depends on the weapons the small slots can use.  Railgun and needler are great, but needs a similarly long-ranged HE or big damage energy weapon to complement it, and there are not any such small non-kinetic weapons of matching range (missiles do not count because they have low ammo).  LAG is decent.  Energy weapons are either too short-ranged (bolts) or hard-countered by shields (beams) if not backed up by other weapons.

Currently, speed and shot range are among the most important combat stats (for those who want to solo fleets with smaller ships), and medium and large ballistics are the best at shot range.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Adraius on October 19, 2015, 04:53:29 PM
Re: Small slots
Depends on the weapons the small slots can use.  Railgun and needler are great, but needs a similarly long-ranged HE or big damage energy weapon to complement it, and there are not any such small non-kinetic weapons of matching range (missiles do not count because they have low ammo).  LAG is decent.  Energy weapons are either too short-ranged (bolts) or hard-countered by shields (beams) if not backed up by other weapons.

Currently, speed and shot range are among the most important combat stats (for those who want to solo fleets with smaller ships), and medium and large ballistics are the best at shot range.
Yeah, one of the chief impediments to using small weapons is the difficulty pairing them longer-range (generally kinetic) options with good finishing weapons.  There's definitely a hole in weapon options for mid-long range HE... but I'm kinda torn as to if that hole should be filled.  At least when playing with mods on that fill in most holes, that is one I still have to keep in mind and work with.

MY three fits, for anyone curious, are x2 Railgun x3 IR Pulse Laser x1 Reaper Alastor (should really try upgrading to Light Needlers, but I love this setup), x2 Dual Light AC x2 Light Assault Gun x1 Shredder MG x2 Sabot Rack Lasher, and x4 Shard Gun Phalanx.  The Phalanx was a real surprise for me, but the slight anti-armor ability of the Shard Gun let's it work its way through even "heavy" frigate armor, and after that it does tons of damage to hull.  With it's efficient kinetic damage, it can tear shields down and afford the flux to keep them down until the target is just plain dead.  Augmented Engines are a must.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on October 19, 2015, 05:32:38 PM
"Hammer torpedoes" eh?

I wonder if they might be kinetic torps given the sprite and name.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Foxer360 on October 19, 2015, 05:50:46 PM
I wonder if they might be kinetic torps given the sprite and name.

It says they do HE damage in the screenshot though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 05:51:12 PM
Will Unstable Injectors and Augmented Engines also modify engine glows?

No - the point here isn't that SO gets a custom glow because it's an engine mod, but because it's super important and needs to be called out visually somehow.

I wonder if they might be kinetic torps given the sprite and name.

They're low-tier HE torpedoes. More damage than a Harpoon, unguided, and 2 OP for the 2 missiles.

Yeah, one of the chief impediments to using small weapons is the difficulty pairing them longer-range (generally kinetic) options with good finishing weapons.  There's definitely a hole in weapon options for mid-long range HE... but I'm kinda torn as to if that hole should be filled.  At least when playing with mods on that fill in most holes, that is one I still have to keep in mind and work with.

That's actually pretty intentional. Not to say that there's nothing that'll eventually fit the bill, but needing to close in to deal armor damage is an intended effect. With larger slots, that doesn't pan out because the ships involved may be faced with faster targets more often, and it's not anything like a hard-and-fast design rule, but that was the initial thought process behind it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Unfolder on October 19, 2015, 06:02:41 PM
Neat...am I reading this right, you can now engage two different fleets at the same time? Or is it just two fleets fight and you get to choose which you engage, and you have time to pick rather than it being insta decided. The reason i ask...it says friendly fire hurts rep, which means friendly NPC ships must be in combat...that would be great but I doubt I'm reading it right...

Two thoughts

Quote
Built-in hullmods (Flux Shunt, Repair Gantry, etc) no longer show up in mission refit

The refit screen was my go to way of finding out what built in hull mods do. How do we do that now? Perhaps rather than eliminating them you could give them a special font or something...I dunno

Secondly - no love for fighters!? Booo. In the future could you put in an order where they rally to a new target with no regard for their own safety, basically they disengage and make a beeline back to the carrier or whereever even if it's directly through enemy flakka dakka, would be useful if you need to emergency rally fast fighters to defend a target that's suddenly become vulnerable, or to suicide attack a critical enemy.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 19, 2015, 06:12:25 PM
With Safety Override hullmod and officers that can get Helmsmanship 10 (and Falcon getting more mounts to be competitive), cruisers can be optimized to be seriously fast.  Can we have cruisers obey the Capture order?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on October 19, 2015, 06:19:28 PM
Quote
Built-in hullmods (Flux Shunt, Repair Gantry, etc) no longer show up in mission refit

The refit screen was my go to way of finding out what built in hull mods do. How do we do that now? Perhaps rather than eliminating them you could give them a special font or something...I dunno

The logical place for Hull mods to appear (regardless of whether they're built-in or not) would be the codex.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 19, 2015, 06:20:50 PM
Neat...am I reading this right, you can now engage two different fleets at the same time? Or is it just two fleets fight and you get to choose which you engage, and you have time to pick rather than it being insta decided. The reason i ask...it says friendly fire hurts rep, which means friendly NPC ships must be in combat...that would be great but I doubt I'm reading it right...
Read the blog post and the ensuing conversations to answer that. :)

Put short, the enemy chooses if they want to engage you with more than one fleet at a time if multiple fleets are close enough.  You have no choice in the matter.


Ah, Megas going off with his Cruisers and Capture orders.  I feel like it would make the game a lot more flexible, even if it's not used by too many people.  Simply adds more possibilities and eliminates the moments of frustration when the throws you a curve ball like that.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 19, 2015, 06:30:13 PM
Ah, Megas going off with his Cruisers and Capture orders.  I feel like it would make the game a lot more flexible, even if it's not used by too many people.  Simply adds more possibilities and eliminates the moments of frustration when the throws you a curve ball like that.
It would make a cruiser-only fleet easier to use, especially if I use Falcons as scouts.  And sometimes, I would like a cruiser to go to a point and steal it from puny enemy ships, if the cruiser is fast and close enough, or is the only other ship I have on the map.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 19, 2015, 06:40:09 PM
I think, especially with the buff to the Falcon, the Capture order for Cruisers does need to be applied.  The Falcon is quick (quicker than some destroyers), and being able to assign it to a capture order would be really nice.  So I wholeheartedly agree. :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 06:46:27 PM
Re: cruisers - done.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on October 19, 2015, 06:53:24 PM
Safety Override is intriguing me! Any preliminary numbers on how large the speed and flux bonuses are? Between aggressive captains and tooling out ships to ride in and blast away, I can really imagine the "Assault" role coming into its own.

Speaking of wish list items; did you ever get around to tweaking the AI to improve fast ships getting away from slower ships when ordered? I kind of remember you saying something but can't seem to find it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 06:58:28 PM
Safety Override is intriguing me! Any preliminary numbers on how large the speed and flux bonuses are? Between aggressive captains and tooling out ships to ride in and blast away, I can really imagine the "Assault" role coming into its own.

Speed: +50/30/20. Flux dissipation: multiplied by a factor of 2, which means the bonus from adding vents (or anything else, such as skills) is doubled as well.

Speaking of wish list items; did you ever get around to tweaking the AI to improve fast ships getting away from slower ships when ordered? I kind of remember you saying something but can't seem to find it.

Yes, that should be much more reliable. They'll open up a safe distance and circle around it. There's also the new "avoid" order for when you just want everyone to keep away from something.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 19, 2015, 07:04:53 PM
Holy sht, that Safety Override is going to be powerful.  Doubled flux dissipation that stacks with skills?

I can't wait to try that out on a Blackrock ship.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on October 19, 2015, 07:25:38 PM
^Might use the built-in hullmod to block it, I think it would be a serious no-brainer on almost all brdy ships. A trade-off more suited for them could probably be implemented in a different hullmod.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 19, 2015, 07:27:16 PM
Re: cruisers - done.
Thanks.  This should be fun.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 07:30:07 PM
^Might use the built-in hullmod to block it, I think it would be a serious no-brainer on almost all brdy ships. A trade-off more suited for them could probably be implemented in a different hullmod.

Why particularly for BRDY? High flux stats?

There is the 0.33 peak time multiplier as a tradeoff, plus the high OP cost. (Still not entirely sure it's adequate, btw. Might further reduce the peak time multiplier for destroyers and cruisers.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Adraius on October 19, 2015, 07:31:03 PM
Dear lordy, that Safety Override! I already play a very destroyer-heavy charge-the-enemy-style fleet with Augmented Engines almost across the board... I can't wait to see what I can do with this instead on ships that don't need the burn boost!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JohnDoe on October 19, 2015, 07:34:22 PM
Quote
Auto-resolving pursuit: greatly increased effectiveness
Best change of 0.7a hands down.

Quote
Fighting a faction's enemies in their system will no longer improve reputation with them
I do wonder what's the rationalization behind this change though..
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on October 19, 2015, 07:45:37 PM
^Might use the built-in hullmod to block it, I think it would be a serious no-brainer on almost all brdy ships. A trade-off more suited for them could probably be implemented in a different hullmod.

Why particularly for BRDY? High flux stats?

There is the 0.33 peak time multiplier as a tradeoff, plus the high OP cost.

Brdy ships vent faster by default, have good flux stats and bad shields. Can usually mount lots of guns too. So I think you could make some broken vent spam loadouts, to the point where "should i vent or not" becomes a meaningless choice, and you can already be pretty lax about it in brdy ships

The OP cost and peak time is a nasty drawback though, nothing's known until hands-on.

Quote
(Still not entirely sure it's adequate, btw. Might further reduce the peak time multiplier for destroyers and cruisers.)

Safety Override makes me think ships would get slapped hard for overloading. Maybe add chance suffer weap/engine chokes when overloaded? Much more dangerous to suffer that in a cruiser or destroyer, and a really unappealing drawback. Otoh having bad peak time in a cruiser sounds bad enough in itself.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on October 19, 2015, 07:55:32 PM
Quote
Fighting a faction's enemies in their system will no longer improve reputation with them
I do wonder what's the rationalization behind this change though..

A couple pages back:

What does "their" system mean here, the system of the hostile faction or of the faction you want to impress?

The one you want to impress. Basically thinking that "helping allies in battle" replaces this.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 07:58:30 PM
I do wonder what's the rationalization behind this change though..

Doing much the same job as helping their fleets in battle, more or less.

Edit: ninja'ed.

Safety Override makes me think ships would get slapped hard for overloading. Maybe add chance suffer weap/engine chokes when overloaded? Much more dangerous to suffer that in a cruiser or destroyer, and a really unappealing drawback. Otoh having bad peak time in a cruiser sounds bad enough in itself.

Hmm, yeah. Something like increasing the overload duration by 50-100% might do the trick - that way it's still down to player skill to avoid it, and feels in line with the general feel of the mod. Liking this, might just put a 50% in and see how it feels. It's a delicate line to walk - I don't want the mod to be the go-to for everything, but at the same time wouldn't want it to be DOA either.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on October 19, 2015, 08:22:44 PM
It's a cool hullmod and I'm glad you added it. Kinks could be ironed out over time, for now, the OP cost is prohibitive enough that you can't have your cake and eat it too. How is the engine glow implemented by the way?

E: Emp arcs that deal damage to the ship while it's overloaded is also a cool idea, SS+'s Excelsior frigate does this as a drawback : ) I'd rather be dead in 10 secs than eat an eternal overload of 24 secs and then die because I couldn't block a single Harpoon with my omnishield.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 08:25:56 PM
How is the engine glow implemented by the way?

Code: java
private Color color = new Color(255,100,255,255);
@Override
public void advanceInCombat(ShipAPI ship, float amount) {
ship.getEngineController().fadeToOtherColor(this, color, null, 1f, 0.4f);
ship.getEngineController().extendFlame(this, 0.25f, 0.25f, 1f);
}

Should in theory work with multiple hullmods trying to do this by producing a blend of the desired colors.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on October 19, 2015, 09:05:44 PM
Quote
Decorative weapons now render in the campaign view and on ship icons
So... does that mean that the scripts run, too?  Or, if it's a Decorative that we want to be hidden, does it need to be hidden on frame 0?

I like that we're going to get direct control over Engines, yay!

Any chance that we can finally add some custom particle types / generate particles with an angle value when generated, as a straightforward way to do muzzle flashes, certain types of special effects, contrails, etc.?  That seems like something with a multitude of uses for you, not just us, in terms of final polish and optimization (to put it one way, particles are a non-minor load when we're having a big fight, so cutting down the number needed would be a fairly fast / cheap way to conserve FPS).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on October 19, 2015, 09:08:52 PM
Safety Override is intriguing me! Any preliminary numbers on how large the speed and flux bonuses are? Between aggressive captains and tooling out ships to ride in and blast away, I can really imagine the "Assault" role coming into its own.

Speed: +50/30/20. Flux dissipation: multiplied by a factor of 2, which means the bonus from adding vents (or anything else, such as skills) is doubled as well.

Speaking of wish list items; did you ever get around to tweaking the AI to improve fast ships getting away from slower ships when ordered? I kind of remember you saying something but can't seem to find it.

Yes, that should be much more reliable. They'll open up a safe distance and circle around it. There's also the new "avoid" order for when you just want everyone to keep away from something.

 :o Double flux venting! Woah! Well if it feels balanced to you it will certainly open up a huge new number of weapon configurations. And the "avoid" order is all of a sudden going to be super useful.

I just hope it doesn't turn too much into a game of "keep away from the safety override ships until they start malfunctioning, then blast them".
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 09:15:50 PM
Quote
Decorative weapons now render in the campaign view and on ship icons
So... does that mean that the scripts run, too?  Or, if it's a Decorative that we want to be hidden, does it need to be hidden on frame 0?
No scripts, no - that would be a bit insane :) Those can't really run outside a CombatEngine, anyway. So, yes: hide or show in frame 0 based on what's desired.

Any chance that we can finally add some custom particle types / generate particles with an angle value when generated, as a straightforward way to do muzzle flashes, certain types of special effects, contrails, etc.?  That seems like something with a multitude of uses for you, not just us, in terms of final polish and optimization (to put it one way, particles are a non-minor load when we're having a big fight, so cutting down the number needed would be a fairly fast / cheap way to conserve FPS).

Hmm - wasn't planning on that in particular; probably belongs in the modding or suggestions forum, as I'm not 100% clear on the details. If it's some sort of entirely new particle thing, though, then honestly, chances are low - I can't add that sort of thing without testing it extensively (which in practical terms means using it), and I'm not exactly planning to overhaul combat graphics like that.


I just hope it doesn't turn too much into a game of "keep away from the safety override ships until they start malfunctioning, then blast them".

It's not something that's in common use by AI ships; meant to be more of a player playstyle thing. Pathers (i.e. Luddic Path) tend to use it, but they only have frigates - and playing keep-away against a frigate with +50 speed isn't exactly an easy thing to do. Oh, just realized I forgot to mention one more detail on SO - it also allows the 0-flux boost to function regardless of flux level. So, yeah, keep-away isn't going to be much of an option.

(As a side note, SO can make Pather frigates very tough to face in the early game. Sure, it's only a Cerberus, but it's in your face firing *the entire time*. I recommend tithing. Or alpha strikes.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on October 19, 2015, 09:39:38 PM
Quote
Decorative weapons now render in the campaign view and on ship icons
So... does that mean that the scripts run, too?  Or, if it's a Decorative that we want to be hidden, does it need to be hidden on frame 0?
No scripts, no - that would be a bit insane :) Those can't really run outside a CombatEngine, anyway. So, yes: hide or show in frame 0 based on what's desired.

Any chance that we can finally add some custom particle types / generate particles with an angle value when generated, as a straightforward way to do muzzle flashes, certain types of special effects, contrails, etc.?  That seems like something with a multitude of uses for you, not just us, in terms of final polish and optimization (to put it one way, particles are a non-minor load when we're having a big fight, so cutting down the number needed would be a fairly fast / cheap way to conserve FPS).

Hmm - wasn't planning on that in particular; probably belongs in the modding or suggestions forum, as I'm not 100% clear on the details. If it's some sort of entirely new particle thing, though, then honestly, chances are low - I can't add that sort of thing without testing it extensively (which in practical terms means using it), and I'm not exactly planning to overhaul combat graphics like that.


I just hope it doesn't turn too much into a game of "keep away from the safety override ships until they start malfunctioning, then blast them".

It's not something that's in common use by AI ships; meant to be more of a player playstyle thing. Pathers (i.e. Luddic Path) tend to use it, but they only have frigates - and playing keep-away against a frigate with +50 speed isn't exactly an easy thing to do. Oh, just realized I forgot to mention one more detail on SO - it also allows the 0-flux boost to function regardless of flux level. So, yeah, keep-away isn't going to be much of an option.

(As a side note, SO can make Pather frigates very tough to face in the early game. Sure, it's only a Cerberus, but it's in your face firing *the entire time*. I recommend tithing. Or alpha strikes.)

Wow. That sounds broken, but if it doesn't play that way then it will make for an entirely new set of threats. I remember from Ironclads a few versions back that one of the pirate factions had these super nasty, super fast, well armed frigates. In the early game, their patrols were so fearsome that you basically ran on sight from them; sounds like the Pathers might convey a similar vibe, which is really cool.

The other way to go is that instead of having longer overloads, the ships suffered from the effects of low CR somewhat even before the timer runs down - engines or weapons giving out infrequently. Not sure if I really like it as its a bit random, but it fits the theme of power over reliability.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Jonlissla on October 19, 2015, 09:43:22 PM
Quote from: Alex
New graphics for some ships (Eagle, Enforcer, Falcon, Dominator, and a few others)

How much has the Falcon changed? I've always thought it looked a bit too... kitbashed. As if the artist went "Should I make a new sprite? Nah, lets just drag and select this middlepart, and press delete, BAM, a totally new original ship."
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Achataeon on October 19, 2015, 09:58:22 PM
  • Adjusted crew losses from battle so that you don't end up being heavily over crew capacity after losing ships

Does that mean more crew will die during engagements?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 10:50:47 PM
Does that mean more crew will die during engagements?

Indeed it does.

How much has the Falcon changed? I've always thought it looked a bit too... kitbashed. As if the artist went "Should I make a new sprite? Nah, lets just drag and select this middlepart, and press delete, BAM, a totally new original ship."

Well, I think it looks good now, and just feels like a very solid ship. I'm probably biased, though, so I guess you'll need to wait to see it to know for sure :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hopelessnoob on October 19, 2015, 11:03:07 PM
Starwars trailer, Starsector patch notes and a new job I am going to have terrible luck this week as everything today was awesome!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Histidine on October 19, 2015, 11:04:27 PM
Does that mean more crew will die during engagements?

Indeed it does.
Do marines die as well now? This can be a pretty big cause of crew overload if you have a lot of them.

(It'd probably be hugely annoying to bleed marines with random ship losses, but you could just make them die only if the remaining ships are still overloaded after crew deaths)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 19, 2015, 11:40:12 PM
(It'd probably be hugely annoying to bleed marines with random ship losses, but you could just make them die only if the remaining ships are still overloaded after crew deaths)

Yep, that's how it works.


Wow. That sounds broken, but if it doesn't play that way then it will make for an entirely new set of threats. I remember from Ironclads a few versions back that one of the pirate factions had these super nasty, super fast, well armed frigates. In the early game, their patrols were so fearsome that you basically ran on sight from them; sounds like the Pathers might convey a similar vibe, which is really cool.

Right - again, though, this is mostly centered around the player using it.

The other way to go is that instead of having longer overloads, the ships suffered from the effects of low CR somewhat even before the timer runs down - engines or weapons giving out infrequently. Not sure if I really like it as its a bit random, but it fits the theme of power over reliability.

Hmm, yeah. Given that the player is the main target for this hullmod, though, I'd like to stay away from random malfunctions here. I did try it out at first, btw, and it just makes the hullmod not worth it. The hullmod encourages more aggressive and risky piloting, so having stuff randomly give out on you *really* hurts.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on October 19, 2015, 11:46:22 PM
A lot of the players here forget that flux dissipation gives diminishing returns.  Sure, you can maximize DPS on your flux-heavy weapons and have very short venting time.  But the fact of the matter is: your shield is no better than before!  It may sound like a great idea to stick SO on an Enforcer and reap endless power, but then you realize that its shield is made of paper, you've got no OP to spare for Heavy Armor, and the time limit is ticking fast.

This could get ridiculous on larger ships.  I don't even want to think about what an Eagle does with SO.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on October 20, 2015, 12:21:38 AM
I actually really want to see the new Dominator; it'll probably look badass!

Man, I really hope the new patch will release soon as I'm really getting anxious to play with all the new STUFF! But Alex, would you say early game is harder, easier or about the same as it currently is?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on October 20, 2015, 01:19:47 AM
Yay, a surprise! So, quick thoughts:

  • Added Luddic Path faction, radical arm of the Luddic Church
    • No markets, but launches small raider fleets from Luddic Church worlds
    • Hostile to player, but individual fleets may be bought off with a "tithe"
Bribes, YESSSSS, that will be interesting with the...
Quote
  • Turned off customs inspections, at least for now - sneaking into market w/ transponder off fills the same role
...Oh. It won't be very useful then.

Quote
  • Hurricane MIRV - changed to be a medium range finisher weapon rather than long-range
    • Removed ammo regeneration
    • Increased number of warheads to 10
    • Reduced refire delay to 5 seconds
    • Reduced range to be in line with MRMs
    • Increased missile hitpoints and range at which the main missile splits
    • Increased flight time of individual warheads
So, assuming one of the new large weapons is a rack of the "Hammers" and the other fill the former role of the Hurricane, we are still stuck with a single weapon for support on larges missile mounts like the Astral's. Also with this fire-rate, it sounds like a guaranteed kill if anyone but an Onslaught or Paragon vent or overload near that new Hurricane.

Quote
  • Added text scrolling for standalone (non-campaign) mission descriptions
More text space, MOOORE text space, MOAR....  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 20, 2015, 05:15:21 AM
Attaching a screenshot of the new Enforcer

Looks awesome, much clearer than before. I'm so glad David got this greeble epiphany.

Oh, interesting. Is this absolute (you can get an officer with skill XY only from faction YZ) or just a probability modifier? Does this affect the officers of the faction's own fleets, too?
It's not skills - it's the probability for them to have a specific personality, which is one of timid/cautious/steady/aggressive.

Oh, right. Same question then: Absolute or probability modifier? Does this affect the officers of the faction's own fleets, too?
Could be quite a handicap if e.g. all or most Tri-Tachyon officers are cautious, but interesting to fight against (or with! :))nonetheless.


I actually kind of want more frigates with *just* small slots. It feels like small weapons don't get as much of a chance to shine as primary armament, which they're certainly capable of.

Sounds good, although quite some frigates rely on small weapons already (Lasher, Shade, Afflictor, Sheppard, Omen). I'd like to see some destroyers do the same.


Safety override seems just perfect for pursuit craft in escape scenarios. Or for torpedo/missile strike ships.




Quote
Built-in hullmods (Flux Shunt, Repair Gantry, etc) no longer show up in mission refit

The refit screen was my go to way of finding out what built in hull mods do. How do we do that now? Perhaps rather than eliminating them you could give them a special font or something...I dunno

They just don't show up as mods to choose from in the missions. If pre-installed they are visible in the refit menu.


Sure, you can maximize DPS on your flux-heavy weapons and have very short venting time.  But the fact of the matter is: your shield is no better than before!  It may sound like a great idea to stick SO on an Enforcer and reap endless power, but then you realize that its shield is made of paper, you've got no OP to spare for Heavy Armor, and the time limit is ticking fast.

I suspect the enforcer might be a prime candidate for SO. You can totally overgun it, catch anything and just take incoming fire on the armor. While its time is limited, that also means that the opponents time to hurt you is limited and thus armor might be just enough. I just wish there were a shield disabling hullmod in vanilla.

...Oh. It won't be very useful then.

I imagine bribes will be quite useful, considering that you'll have much less information about the position of enemy fleets than now and will be more likely to run into otherwise fatal situations.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 20, 2015, 06:26:15 AM
Quote
Oh, just realized I forgot to mention one more detail on SO - it also allows the 0-flux boost to function regardless of flux level. So, yeah, keep-away isn't going to be much of an option.
That is huge!  It will probably be more like +50 speed on-top of the speed bonus given by Safety Override, because most ships lose their bonus speed once shields are up and the fighting starts.  Fighters are starting to look so slow...

I was the sort of player who would stack both Augmented Engines and Unstable Injector on as many ships as possible when both used to be stackable.  The speed gains were very powerful, and made big ships (namely capitals, which is Safety Override cannot be used on) fun to pilot.

The OP cost is not just fairly expensive, it is extremely expensive (more than the +capacitor and +vent hullmods given by Flux Dynamics skill), but the power may be worth it.  I may need to give up bigger missiles and Hardened Subsystems to squeeze it in for many ships.  Even then, I may not always want Safety Override because low peak performance will hurt if I need to solo fleets.  That said, I already see easy configuration adjustments for some ships with plenty of OP (looking at Dominator... you don't need luxury weapons like Mjolnir, go use Hellbore that is nearly as good for 8 less OP each!)

Quote
There is the 0.33 peak time multiplier as a tradeoff
Since I use Hardened Subsystems on almost every ship, this will be more than that if I am forced to remove Hardened Subsystems to squeeze Safety Override in.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Volken on October 20, 2015, 06:43:19 AM
(http://www.drodd.com/images10/clapping-gif7.gif)

So many awesome new things! Looking forward to the update. Also just a little suggestion, I think the expanded magazines hull mod should be changed to buff ballistic weapons in some way since it has no use at the moment.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on October 20, 2015, 06:57:26 AM
Poor fighters really are slow. :(
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 20, 2015, 07:16:46 AM
One more question:  Does the peak time multiplier from Safety Override speed up CR decay?

When soloing the enemy with a ship, smaller ships get more time post peak-performance, especially with Hardened Subsystems.  For example, take a Wolf, 180 seconds (or 270 seconds with Hardened Subsystems) of peak performance.  With 60 points of CR to burn through, it is about 240 more seconds (or 360 with Hardened Subsystems).  If it is my flagship, I probably have 100 CR, and 20% more CR is another 120 seconds with hardened subsystems.

This is why Hardened Subsystems is good for any ship that solos fleets, or any frigate in endgame fights.

Hyperion might benefit from Safety Override.  Even with max flux stats, it spends A LOT of time venting due to how much flux blasters (and frequent teleporting) generate.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 20, 2015, 07:31:09 AM
Also just a little suggestion, I think the expanded magazines hull mod should be changed to buff ballistic weapons in some way since it has no use at the moment.

Or just renamed to something like "increased weapon charge" or" "overcharged weapon capacitors" to reflect that it only affects energy weapons now. It's called "Charges" in the weapon stats, after all.


Hyperion might benefit from Safety Override.  Even with max flux stats, it spends A LOT of time venting due to how much flux blasters (and frequent teleporting) generate.

With 40 seconds base PRT and no real need for the speed buff thanks to teleporting? No thanks.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 20, 2015, 07:43:27 AM
Hyperion might benefit from Safety Override.  Even with max flux stats, it spends A LOT of time venting due to how much flux blasters (and frequent teleporting) generate.
With 40 seconds base PRT and no real need for the speed buff thanks to teleporting? No thanks.
Depends.  When soloing fleets, most of the Hyperion's time is spent in post peak-performance (i.e., when CR is decaying), especially with Hardened Subsystems.  If Safety Override merely cuts peak performance but not CR decay, 80 seconds lost may be less if Hyperion spends only 1 or 2 seconds venting instead of 3 to 5 seconds, and Hyperion vents much.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on October 20, 2015, 07:51:37 AM
With the new ability to overtune ships, maybe it'd be in order to look at the SS+ mod and how it adds fighter bonuses to the Logistics tree. Great idea, great execution.

I also think the Safety Override mod is too extreme in both bonuses and penalties. If you were to halve the buffs and shave a bit off the negatives, you'd still have a functional mod.

Edit: To be clear - I very much wanna try it as it is, but I predict it's going to have to be mellowed down a bit.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 20, 2015, 09:55:25 AM
A lot of the players here forget that flux dissipation gives diminishing returns.  Sure, you can maximize DPS on your flux-heavy weapons and have very short venting time.  But the fact of the matter is: your shield is no better than before!  It may sound like a great idea to stick SO on an Enforcer and reap endless power, but then you realize that its shield is made of paper, you've got no OP to spare for Heavy Armor, and the time limit is ticking fast.

This could get ridiculous on larger ships.  I don't even want to think about what an Eagle does with SO.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see. Without extra OP to spend, though, something like an Eagle is very starved for OP once you put SO on.


Man, I really hope the new patch will release soon as I'm really getting anxious to play with all the new STUFF! But Alex, would you say early game is harder, easier or about the same as it currently is?

I'd say the early game is... a bit of both. On the one hand, you can join ongoing battles and have an easier time with that. On the other, it's harder to avoid unwanted battles - you might get caught off by pirates that went dark and that you spot when they're literally a few seconds away, or you might just get chased down by a well-timed emergency burn. It takes a lot more care to avoid engagements.


So, assuming one of the new large weapons is a rack of the "Hammers" and the other fill the former role of the Hurricane, we are still stuck with a single weapon for support on larges missile mounts like the Astral's. Also with this fire-rate, it sounds like a guaranteed kill if anyone but an Onslaught or Paragon vent or overload near that new Hurricane.

Well, you know what they say about assuming :)

Oh, right. Same question then: Absolute or probability modifier? Does this affect the officers of the faction's own fleets, too?
Could be quite a handicap if e.g. all or most Tri-Tachyon officers are cautious, but interesting to fight against (or with! :))nonetheless.

Each faction has a set of probabilities for officer personalities, set up like so in the .faction file (this one is for the Hegemony):
"captain":{
         "timid":1,
         "cautious":5,
         "steady":10,
         "aggressive":10,
      },

      
This is used both for picking officers to command faction ships and for picking the personalities of mercenaries available on their markets.


Sounds good, although quite some frigates rely on small weapons already (Lasher, Shade, Afflictor, Sheppard, Omen). I'd like to see some destroyers do the same.

Good point on the Shade and Afflictor; for the Omen and the Shepherd, I'd say that small weapons aren't really their primary armament - it's EMP and drones, respectively.


...Oh. It won't be very useful then.

I imagine bribes will be quite useful, considering that you'll have much less information about the position of enemy fleets than now and will be more likely to run into otherwise fatal situations.

"Tithes" are Pather-specific; it's not a generic "you can now bribe anybody" thing.


Also just a little suggestion, I think the expanded magazines hull mod should be changed to buff ballistic weapons in some way since it has no use at the moment.

Yeah, it needs a tweak at some point (probably, as Gothars said, a renaming, since it's only useful for energy weapons, outside of mods).


One more question:  Does the peak time multiplier from Safety Override speed up CR decay?

It doesn't. But then once you get to that point, you're paying extra supplies to keep the ship deployed, and you get to that point much quicker with SO.

When soloing the enemy with a ship, smaller ships get more time post peak-performance, especially with Hardened Subsystems.  For example, take a Wolf, 180 seconds (or 270 seconds with Hardened Subsystems) of peak performance.  With 60 points of CR to burn through, it is about 240 more seconds (or 360 with Hardened Subsystems).  If it is my flagship, I probably have 100 CR, and 20% more CR is another 120 seconds with hardened subsystems.

This is why Hardened Subsystems is good for any ship that solos fleets, or any frigate in endgame fights.

Hyperion might benefit from Safety Override.  Even with max flux stats, it spends A LOT of time venting due to how much flux blasters (and frequent teleporting) generate.

Hmm. I hadn't been thinking about the "CR decay speed" bonus from HS; sort of dismissed it since its +peak time bonus isn't very useful with SO. Let me reduce this down to 25% - thinking about it, it's a bit much at 50%. It was actually doubling the time, so you'd get 360 instead of 180. At 25%, you'd get 240.


I also think the Safety Override mod is too extreme in both bonuses and penalties. If you were to halve the buffs and shave a bit off the negatives, you'd still have a functional mod.

Edit: To be clear - I very much wanna try it as it is, but I predict it's going to have to be mellowed down a bit.

I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. On the flip side, if it's on the powerful side, it'll get more playtesting!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on October 20, 2015, 02:18:09 PM
With the new missile ship, that brings midlines up to 4 cruisers. Hopefully we can get a new low tech cruiser as the only other one is the Dominator (you could argue the Venture is midline due to its medium energy mount).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 20, 2015, 02:53:57 PM
If Shepherd is low-tech (due to codex saying Borer drones are low-tech), and Mule and Venture are of the same style as Shepherd, it can be argued that Venture is low-tech despite the energy weapon mount.  That said, the aforementioned yellow ship line appears to straddle the low-tech and midline epochs.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cyan Leader on October 20, 2015, 03:17:30 PM
What an impressive changelog. I will refrain from comment on some of those weapon changes since I've been playing with mods way too much and my view on balance may be a little off. But regardless,

Revamped trade, pirate, and mercenary fleet spawning

What is the practical effect of this, exactly? Are there more fleets in the game in general now or fewer? Are they bigger/smaller?

Added Luddic Path faction, radical arm of the Luddic Church

A really cool idea, I hope more stuff like this get added. Are they hostile to every other faction in the game?

Fighting a faction's enemies in their system will no longer improve reputation with them

This change is confusing to me, does it mean that, say, clearing pirates in a Hegemony system won't gain reputation with the Hegemony anymore? If true, the only way of gaining rep through combat would be by fighting in systems with bounties and by assisting in battles then?

If I'm understanding this correctly then this is a big nerf to rep acquisition, not sure how I feel about it.

Turned off customs inspections, at least for now - sneaking into market w/ transponder off fills the same role

A good trade off. Customs are a good idea in general but they do get annoying pretty fast. I was always found of the idea of the player being able to subscribe to a faction trading license (that could be revoked) so they could avoid the annoying inspections.

Hammerhead: changed small energy mounts to hybrid (can slot in energy/ballistic)

This mount will be a godsend to many mods. But I'm curious, is the Hammerhead the only ship in the game that currently has those turrets? Seems like such a major addition of turret type could be used to adjust the balance of many ships.

Added new midline missile cruiser

Sounds exciting, but a little concerning too. I always felt that missile weapons are overpowered in general in the game, especially the Harpoons (something I may elaborate more in a balance topic), but it is a cruiser so I guess its fine.

Other than that, I'm happy to see a lot of bugfixing related to music in general I've been having a lot of issues when the playback just suddenly stops after playing, sometimes after 5 minutes, sometimes after hours. Of course, it only happened after modding in a lot of songs in the game but since the update is getting a lot of songs too it was something I was concerned about.

Really looking forward to the patch, I hope to see it soon.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 20, 2015, 03:34:09 PM
If Shepherd is low-tech (due to codex saying Borer drones are low-tech), and Mule and Venture are of the same style as Shepherd, it can be argued that Venture is low-tech despite the energy weapon mount.  That said, the aforementioned yellow ship line appears to straddle the low-tech and midline epochs.

I'm kinda writing on a story/analysis/history lecture about ship epochs atm, and I'd argue that all three epochs are fluently going over into each other and that this is reflected in the ships. There are many ships, including the Venture, with features belonging to more than one epoch, marking the transition between them.

An excerpt:

Spoiler
At the same time the first advantages in energy weapon technology were made, promising much better effect against shields while still being a threat for old fashioned armor. These early energy weapons were most likely not, as some of my colleagues claim, miniaturized versions of the gigantic plasma weaponry housed in the arms of an Onslaught. That is a feat that was not accomplished until many years later in the form of pulse weaponry. No, everything indicates that the first energy weapons are directly derived from mining equipment, resulting in enormous destructive power but terrible tactical properties like short range and poor efficiency.
The first ships to utilize these new weapons were actually not primarily designed for military purposes. The big military contractors of the time were not convinced by the performance and likely thought the very idea of basing their designs around mining equipment preposterous. So the funding for a new type of commercial ship design was realized with the help of private investors. These were mostly people with close ties to the industry, who had a lot to win by expanding mining claims and trade routes into uncharted territories while keeping their work crews safe.
This resulted in hulls like the Venture-class Cruiser or the Mule-class combat-freighter. These ships coupled the new omni-shield and offensive energy weapon technology, but still relied on the heavy armor and ballistic defensive weaponry of their military counterparts. This double line of heavy defenses makes them quite popular even on today’s market.
[close]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 20, 2015, 03:49:57 PM
@ Gothars:  Some of the midline ships, namely Sunder and Heron, look like they belong in high-tech if they had a blue paint job and increased CR deployment cost.  Heron especially feels misplaced - it feels like a high-tech ship in every way except color, CR cost, and ship system.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 20, 2015, 04:30:17 PM
What is the practical effect of this, exactly? Are there more fleets in the game in general now or fewer? Are they bigger/smaller?

The goal is to provide more fleets for the player to fight/interact with while not actually having more fleets in the game. So: feels like more, is fewer.

Fleet-size-wise, not really affected.

This change is confusing to me, does it mean that, say, clearing pirates in a Hegemony system won't gain reputation with the Hegemony anymore? If true, the only way of gaining rep through combat would be by fighting in systems with bounties and by assisting in battles then?

If I'm understanding this correctly then this is a big nerf to rep acquisition, not sure how I feel about it.

Yeah, you've got it. We'll see how it plays out! Definitely felt too fast when you had both.

This mount will be a godsend to many mods. But I'm curious, is the Hammerhead the only ship in the game that currently has those turrets? Seems like such a major addition of turret type could be used to adjust the balance of many ships.

It is for now. As with universal slots, I don't want to overdo it. Those slots are "special".
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Debido on October 20, 2015, 07:03:24 PM
Is there not some way you can tie customs inspections to an actual useful purpose instead of removing it? With the ally system and the ability to tether a customs fleet to the player fleet. You could make a system for the inspection fleets to follow you, protect you and aid you in combat while you're in their system.

Or maybe after a certain reputation level or cash handed over they give you useable tokens that make an allied defence fleet show up in combat to assist you, or rush to you location to protect and assist you in some way.

As long as you can incentivise players to want to get a customs inspection because it helps them in the long run you could keep them in.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 20, 2015, 07:10:22 PM
But... why? "Keeping customs inspections" is not a goal unto itself :) Yes, they could probably be remade into something else, but I'm instead choosing to take 'em out and put that time towards other stuff, of which there is a lot.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Debido on October 20, 2015, 07:23:42 PM
True it isn't a goal unto itself

The goal is to have a universe that feels alive, that you interact with it, and it interacts with you. When the customs inspectors ping you the universe is interacting with you and prompting you with gameplay choices. At the moment though the choices are fairly shallow.

I guess really just asking to keep or maintain game mechanics where you can interact with fleets in potentially non-combat scenarios and dialogue that lead to different gameplay choices.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 20, 2015, 07:29:38 PM
Right, I totally see what you're saying. Thing is, there's now other stuff that serves the same purpose, e.g.:

You want to smuggle something. But, you want to keep the risks (and reputation penalties) low, so you need to go in with the transponder off. So, you try to do that, but a patrol spots you and goes after you. They tell you to turn your transponder on, and once you comply, they run a cargo scan and confiscate any contraband that's found.

It's basically the same feel - and I'd say a good deal more dynamic, as there's gameplay and ability use involved in trying to duck a patrol, and they choices you get along the way are more important - but it's a lot less complex. That's really the issue with inspections as they are, really complicated for what they do. That, and random.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on October 20, 2015, 10:24:06 PM
The new ACG is wonderful change. Its a secret buff to hound and Cerberus. Slab heavy armor and a dual machine gun with ACG on it and give it an aggressive captain. I imagine two of these can totally shred an enforcer in no time.

Tho I do have to argue that the ACG need more accuracy.

The biggest reason is visually its would make more sense, as right now the projectiles shoot off at too much of an angle and it just feel video game-y.
The increased accuracy would also not but a buff but often as a nerf on AI. As alot of the times the in-inaccuracies are what allows the AI to hit small targets to compensate for shot leading changes, and ACG is a prime example of this.
Also this rewards more precise aiming : A well placed volly can rip apart a hound or a warthog, or a bad volly can miss every shot; Instead as of current state of just shoot in the direction it will basically turn out the same.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cyan Leader on October 20, 2015, 10:27:39 PM
You want to smuggle something. But, you want to keep the risks (and reputation penalties) low, so you need to go in with the transponder off. So, you try to do that, but a patrol spots you and goes after you. They tell you to turn your transponder on, and once you comply, they run a cargo scan and confiscate any contraband that's found.

If the player ship spotted then it works the same as now I take it? As in they ping, follow you, and you will be blocked from accessing the market until you comply or they disengage.
If so what happens if you keep running? Currently you take a rep loss after the second message, is that still in even with the transponder off?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 20, 2015, 10:38:03 PM
The biggest reason is visually its would make more sense, as right now the projectiles shoot off at too much of an angle and it just feel video game-y.
The increased accuracy would also not but a buff but often as a nerf on AI. As alot of the times the in-inaccuracies are what allows the AI to hit small targets to compensate for shot leading changes, and ACG is a prime example of this.
Also this rewards more precise aiming : A well placed volly can rip apart a hound or a warthog, or a bad volly can miss every shot; Instead as of current state of just shoot in the direction it will basically turn out the same.

I might agree with you if its range wasn't also reduced. At that range, its inaccuracy doesn't matter very much. (As far as the AI, due to improved target leading with time-spent-firing-on-target, I think that rather changes it up.)

If the player ship spotted then it works the same as now I take it? As in they ping, follow you, and you will be blocked from accessing the market until you comply or they disengage.
If so what happens if you keep running? Currently you take a rep loss after the second message, is that still in even with the transponder off?

If you keep running, they'll keep looking for you. You won't be able to get into the market (except for comms) unless you've lost the patrols for a little while (about a day). The cargo scan etc is different than the customs inspection - it's all done in one go without a progress bar.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on October 21, 2015, 11:53:30 AM
not sure if this is the right thread for it, but since it has already been mentioned:
The logical place for Hull mods to appear (regardless of whether they're built-in or not) would be the codex.
i would also really like to see this. i remember checking the codex for hullmod descriptions when i played for the first time, and being rather confused about not finding any. making decisions about where to spend your skill points is difficult when all you can see is the name of unlocked hullmods, without any kind of further information.

some hullmods, like Heavy Armor or Expanded Missile Racks are mostly self-eplanatory (although being able to check the exact numbers would still be nice) but what Advanced Optics or Resistant Flux Conduits do, or where the difference between Front Shield Generator and Front Shield Emitter lies is much less clear.

using the mission's refit screen works, but it's not something that is obvious at all to new players. and having to exist to the main menu, looking for a mission with a ship of the right size (and, in case of some mods, right faction) and then loading into the campaign again can get rather annoying.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on October 21, 2015, 04:16:20 PM
IMO the name Front Shield Generator should be Shield Generator, if that's the one that adds shield to non-shielded one.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on October 21, 2015, 05:27:28 PM
IMO the name Front Shield Generator should be Shield Generator, if that's the one that adds shield to non-shielded one.

I think its good as is; it's clear that it adds a Front shield and not an Omni one.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on October 21, 2015, 06:47:43 PM
I can never remember which is which.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 21, 2015, 09:44:06 PM
@Sy: That's a fair point, but I don't want to mess with the Codex right now given that I'll probably (very likely, even) need to revamp it extensively at some point anyway.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on October 22, 2015, 05:55:37 AM
Speaking of the codex, keyboard navigation would be nice.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: HELMUT on October 22, 2015, 02:35:56 PM
Speaking of the codex, keyboard navigation would be nice.

+1

Especially when the mods start stacking hundred of ships/weapons in the codex.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on October 22, 2015, 03:57:26 PM
I can never remember which is which.
i don't have trouble (anymore) remembering what each does, but maybe just calling the Emitter something along the lines of Front Shield Conversion / Converter would be better.

@Sy: That's a fair point, but I don't want to mess with the Codex right now given that I'll probably (very likely, even) need to revamp it extensively at some point anyway.
ah, okay :]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Solinarius on October 23, 2015, 03:20:46 PM
I only just noticed that fleet limitation change. Seems like a good idea. Also, difficulty options are seemingly meant to be sparse but I think it'd be great to allow the player to customize the maximum A.I. fleet size at the start of a game. Say, 20-30?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on October 23, 2015, 04:08:18 PM
Fleet size restriction is only a UI restriction for players. AI fleets have no such restriction.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Solinarius on October 23, 2015, 06:51:22 PM
Fleet size restriction is only a UI restriction for players. AI fleets have no such restriction.

Ah. Thanks!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on October 24, 2015, 07:38:35 AM
Didn't see anything about skills in the patch notes. Are those getting any adjustments or additions this patch?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 24, 2015, 07:54:40 AM
Emphasis mine:

How are the Sensors going to be worked into characters skills?
Right now, probably not at all. The skill revamp is slowly taking shape in my head, but I don't want to tackle it until industry, and I'm hesitant to add more skills that would just need to be revamped.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 24, 2015, 09:40:08 PM
For the modding-inclined, uploaded the javadoc for the current dev version:
http://fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/index.html?overview-summary.html

Still a round of modding-focused enhancements I'd like to do, but aside from that, I think the API in fairly finalized shape.

Edit: the api jar and source available here:
http://fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/starfarer.api.jar
http://fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/starfarer.api.zip
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hopelessnoob on October 24, 2015, 09:42:48 PM
Itshappening.gif


I cannot wait for the next version so that I can be sad at the lack of patch notes again.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 24, 2015, 09:47:55 PM
For the modding-inclined, uploaded the javadoc for the current dev version:
http://fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/index.html?overview-summary.html

Still a round of modding-focused enhancements I'd like to do, but aside from that, I think it's in fairly finalized shape.
Oh awesome.  Time to dig through it and prepare myself...
(http://i.imgur.com/8Sxj20q.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 24, 2015, 09:50:49 PM
I meant the API being fairly finalized, not the actual dev version. Though that's certainly getting there too! So: soon, but perhaps not quite as soon as my previous post may have implied, i.e. not days.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on October 24, 2015, 09:56:38 PM
i.e. not days.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO*screams*
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 24, 2015, 09:57:44 PM
Of course, but that doesn't mean I can't get excited all over again. :3
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on October 25, 2015, 01:27:21 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/Ucj922u.gif)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JohnDoe on October 25, 2015, 01:59:50 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/Ucj922u.gif)
Starsector 3 confirmed!!!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on October 25, 2015, 04:40:33 AM
The only way that it cannot measured in days, is when humans has left earth and live on other places where "days" dont apply. Thusly

Human space colonization confirmed, and the same time starsector 0.7 will be done!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on October 25, 2015, 04:54:52 AM
what if the update comes tomorrow? that wouldn't be days, right?! O:
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 25, 2015, 07:07:28 AM
Alright, I think I've derailed this thread more than enough, hehe.

I do guess the API being complete means the basic structure of the next update is complete as well - the the skeleton of the skyscraper is built, and all it needs is for Alex to put up siding an an interior. :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: gruberscomplete on October 25, 2015, 01:41:42 PM
I know this is superfluous, but this is what I believe this update will accomplish:
this list is full of ifs... if you are smart enough... have enough money.. have a big fleet... etc
Also I'm not mentioning the new features, just what those features will do to the game.

fix smuggling, so you can actually smuggle undetected and unpunished

make combat more fluid and fun

make campaign level more interesting, smarter fleets that evolve and grow.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on October 25, 2015, 05:34:52 PM
I dunnoe what you mean. The sensor update will solve your smuggling problem. Multi side battles help when you have no money or big fleet. Even smuggling in market side has gotten updates.

More fluid combat? You mean you are lagging? Then there is something on your side that needs to be fixed.

If you mean gameplaywise combat is pretty fluid.

This whole update is 80% campign updates.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 25, 2015, 07:18:41 PM
I think he means the things that this update *will* bring :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on October 25, 2015, 08:04:10 PM
The hype is giving me low key shakes
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Achataeon on October 25, 2015, 09:10:03 PM
The hype is giving me low key shakes

Is that like what a cat does when it purrs? Haha.

But in all seriousness, I'm actually holding off on playing Starsector until this update comes, which is even longer than I actually expected.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on October 26, 2015, 07:29:51 AM
Oh hehe my bad. Read too fast :-[
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on October 26, 2015, 08:10:43 AM
Just now seeing and respond to this. I am excited.  :D  This is going to be a sweet sweet update.

Hammerhead buuuuuuff! I wouldn't say it needed the change, but it will be so much more fun now.

Also enforcer will be lolworthy if I can find 5 of those heavy mgs. Was pretty awesome before range buff. Seriously kit it out. 5 heavy mgs is withering. Awesome stuff.

Boo mauler nerf! Probably needed it, though. I pretty threw those on everything.  :p

FALCON BUUUFF!!  :D  I love that thing. Hits like a cruiser. Moves like a destroyer. So much win.

EDIT:
I always felt the Falcon was a bit undergunned. This is nice. Can't wait to see the new ship sprites and the missile cruiser!

Funny thing is adding the new turrets was a complete accident (at least on my part) due to basing the sprite on the Eagle and just porting the changes over to the Falcon w/o removing the turrets. Alex noticed them after I pushed the new sprite and decided to made them work.

Well, thank the heavens for that accident. I always thought it was weird they were missing. Not bad, just strange.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 26, 2015, 09:19:35 AM
I think the Falcon now is rubbish, not quite as bad as Hammerhead, but worse than either Enforcer or Medusa.  It has less firepower than a Hammerhead (but better flux stats), which in turn has less firepower than other destroyers.  No small turrets in front of medium energy mounts meant I need to choose either PD or firepower.  Falcon being a cruiser was more of a liability because of low OP for hullmods at cruiser costs, and Capture order did not work on it.  Better ITU bonus, more zoom-out, and other big ship perks are not enough.

Falcon should be much better once they get the extra mounts and OP, and the ability for cruisers to Capture points.  I know I will optimize some cruisers for speed.

As for Hammerhead, hybrid slots are nice and may correct the low firepower problem, but my other problems with it are low OP and mediocre flux stats.  Not sure if the hybrid mounts and ammo feeder buffs will be enough.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on October 26, 2015, 10:39:11 AM
Rubbish? Seems harsh. I use and like it. I am known for my hound appreciation, though, ha! So obviously my opinions are uh...  suspect I guess.

I like kitting them out as snipers or even just fast brawlers. I don't really mind it's lack of pd since energy pd is not great anyway. It gets cruiser upgrades which IS worth it for me. I don't expect everyone will agree. It got buffed, and I don't feel this is overkill, so obviously I don't think it's the best evar or anything.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 26, 2015, 11:25:17 AM
I snipe too!  For cruisers, Eagle does a much better job (three guns plus small mounts for beams).  For destroyers, Enforcer can snipe with more guns (classic Mauler and 2 HVDs).  Even Hammerhead can snipe just as well with the same two guns the Falcon uses (although Hammerhead has other problems).  If I want to brawl with energy weapons instead, Medusa does a better job at that than the Falcon.  All of the destroyers are common enough that rarity is not a factor in the campaign, although I prefer Falcon over Hammerhead because the latter is worse.

PD energy is good for anti-missile and anti-fighter.  In case of the Tactical Laser and IPDAI combo, tactical laser becomes a great general-purpose energy weapon, useful for long range PD and piling more damage on the enemy when the shields go down.  If you do not want PD, Ion Cannon is good for disabling some (but not all) ships, and it will be better in 0.7 when the flux cost will be less.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cruis.In on October 26, 2015, 03:43:22 PM
I can't wait for this release, it'll be time to get back into SS, as I felt the campaign mode wasn't quite ready yet. Since all it really was, was kill who you could, keep gearing up your fleet...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 26, 2015, 04:19:01 PM
kill who you could, keep gearing up your fleet...

Not sure anything has changed about that yet. There are "campaign missions", but last I heard they were just simple fetch quest to test the system. The "killing and gearing up" get's way fancier again, though ;D

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: MCWarhammer on October 26, 2015, 09:35:20 PM
Quote
  • Assault Chaingun: increased damage and flux cost by 50%, reduced range to 450 (from 700)

Why are you doing this to me? NO!

Seriously though, this is looking like a good update. Lots of cool things in the oven, now we just have to wait for it to bake.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: bills6693 on October 27, 2015, 05:02:15 AM
Does that mean more crew will die during engagements?

Indeed it does.
Wait sorry, can I ask how this works? Does this mean more crew will die if you lose a ship, or more crew will die from general battle damage without losing any ships, just taking hull damage?

Any idea on the figures/% increase?

I fully understand and support losing a load of crew if a ship dies (although I think you shouldn't lose all the crew of that ship, probably 80-90% as long as the ship isn't totally destroyed and is just a wreck), but I'm quite attached to my faceless crews and was quite happy with low losses when not loosing ships, although I understand if this is increased.

Could these losses, if increased just from damage, easily lead to being undercrewed after a battle without losses just from attrition, if you had a fairly well-crewed fleet (not just skeleton crew) to begin with?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 27, 2015, 05:42:29 AM
Currently, if you lose many and/or big ships, and enough crew survive, your remaining ships overload with too much crew, and overloading can reduce your speed down to zero if it is severe enough.  Since you cannot space excess crew, you are stuck in a death spiral at zero speed, supplies draining very fast, and LR probably at 0%.  It is only a matter of time before your fleet implodes, everyone dies, and you respawn in Corvus.

More crew dying is to prevent the above death trap.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on October 27, 2015, 05:57:26 AM
I see crews as little more than numbers, losing 100-300~ elite crewmen and then some, that i have no attachment to or feel nothing towards for 100.000~ credits, versus losing the entire ship or possibly my entire fleet that likely costed a million credits or more and took several hours to put together, the choice is easy.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Creepin on October 27, 2015, 06:16:11 AM
Since you cannot space excess crew
Really you can't? :( I must admit I never needed to push some extra mouths from airlock, but frankly I should be able to if that is my whim. This game design is as bad and 4th wall breaking as unkillable children in Fallout, Skyrim and so on.
Spoiler
We should be able to order to execute (here be slider bar from 0 to 100%) of crew and if there will be enough people unhappy with this decision, they could riot and possibly stole one of your ships and escape.
[close]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 27, 2015, 06:23:27 AM
I see crews as little more than numbers...
Crew is nothing but a number or soulless abstraction in the game.  At best, they are disposable heroes.  At worst, <insert fortune-cookie psychobabble from any of the Matrix films>.

@ Creepin:  Not in this version.  In previous versions, you could.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 27, 2015, 11:42:40 AM
Wait sorry, can I ask how this works? Does this mean more crew will die if you lose a ship, or more crew will die from general battle damage without losing any ships, just taking hull damage?

If your remaining ships will be over crew capacity, excess crew will be killed, with a bit of random variation. There's no extra crew casualties unless you end up over capacity by battle's end.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on October 27, 2015, 11:45:47 AM
Far all it's flaws, Spaz had really cool mechanics regarding crew. You actually felt bad spacing them, or accidentally shooting their life-pods, because you could see them agonizing in space.. Nexus wasn't bad either, although a bit more abstract, but seeing how much of the ship's crew managed to escape added a nice little touch.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 27, 2015, 11:51:33 AM
There's no extra crew casualties unless you end up over capacity by battle's end.

That means you can basically take a ship with a lot of extra crew space with you and use it as a lifeboat to minimize crew causalities, doesn't it? What a remarkable coincidence that we apparently get just such a boat with the new cruise liner ;)



Far all it's flaws, Spaz had really cool mechanics regarding crew. You actually felt bad spacing them, or accidentally shooting their life-pods, because you could see them agonizing in space..

That was cool in goofy SPAZ, but would feel totally out of place in Sector. I think the first step in giving value to crew should be to make them harder to hire.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on October 27, 2015, 12:22:40 PM
I think the first step in giving value to crew should be to make them harder to hire.
and not as quick to level, i think. according to their description, elite crewmen are rare in the sector, because all the faction conflicts, piracy and failing tech make life in space so dangerous that most just don't survive long enough to become really experienced. but in actual gameplay, even green crews become elite very quickly, so the player fleet is usually crewed almost exclusively by elites (unless a large number of them was lost in a recent battle, or there's a shiny, big new ship in the fleet).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on October 27, 2015, 12:53:22 PM
That was cool in goofy SPAZ, but would feel totally out of place in Sector. I think the first step in giving value to crew should be to make them harder to hire.
That's why I mentioned Nexus: the shuttles evacuating a destroyed ship would fit better and still add some connection to your crew that goes beyond "Is my crew gauge filled"?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on October 27, 2015, 12:57:09 PM
As long as this doesn't impose any more station-hunting. I already loathe having to scour sectors and stations to find something I want, and it's bordering on prohibitive for fullblooded pirate captains. For cheap supplies and fuel, I get it. And I don't mind having to play the market in this instance. But rarity should not be what makes crew hard to find - particularly not in independent and pirate hubs. Just make them more expensive instead?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on October 27, 2015, 01:20:53 PM
That's why I mentioned Nexus: the shuttles evacuating a destroyed ship would fit better and still add some connection to your crew that goes beyond "Is my crew gauge filled"?

And hey, there's already a tiny shuttle that would fit the bill.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 27, 2015, 04:12:06 PM
I think the first step in giving value to crew should be to make them harder to hire.
and not as quick to level, i think. according to their description, elite crewmen are rare in the sector, because all the faction conflicts, piracy and failing tech make life in space so dangerous that most just don't survive long enough to become really experienced. but in actual gameplay, even green crews become elite very quickly, so the player fleet is usually crewed almost exclusively by elites (unless a large number of them was lost in a recent battle, or there's a shiny, big new ship in the fleet).

Very true. I wouldn't mind a stronger differentiation between crew level either. Maybe with greens normally bringing CR so low as to cause malfunctions.

That's why I mentioned Nexus: the shuttles evacuating a destroyed ship would fit better and still add some connection to your crew that goes beyond "Is my crew gauge filled"?

As a purely graphical effect that sounds as if it would fit well with sinking ships (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8476.0) :)

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Zapier on October 28, 2015, 12:11:53 AM
I think the first step in giving value to crew should be to make them harder to hire.
and not as quick to level, i think. according to their description, elite crewmen are rare in the sector, because all the faction conflicts, piracy and failing tech make life in space so dangerous that most just don't survive long enough to become really experienced. but in actual gameplay, even green crews become elite very quickly, so the player fleet is usually crewed almost exclusively by elites (unless a large number of them was lost in a recent battle, or there's a shiny, big new ship in the fleet).

Very true. I wouldn't mind a stronger differentiation between crew level either. Maybe with greens normally bringing CR so low as to cause malfunctions.

I really like this line of thinking. Unless I'm just rolling in extra creds that I just want to burn, I always buy cheap green crew. The price never felt justified for anything more trained unless it was say an extra one or two for a fighter wing to be instant elite level rather than say 5 elite to man a crew that's all regular or green and not really having any impact.

Some sort of 'reputation' or something that might influence the cost of crew to join... say you tend to always have high casualties then you're known to be a captain that gets people killed so they expect you to pay more to risk their lives under your command. If you tend to suffer few losses, they might actually be cheaper because they'll have better odds at living longer lives. With slower advances between the crewman ranks it might make keeping those well trained men around more meaningful, especially if maybe no one but greenhorns want to serve with you anymore because you act like a captain of all redshirt crew (which I think most of us feel like we are).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on October 28, 2015, 01:38:46 AM
As a purely graphical effect that sounds as if it would fit well with sinking ships (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8476.0) :)
Hehehe you're chasing that Roadrunner really hard ;D   Tbh i would really like to see that implemented.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on October 28, 2015, 02:10:47 AM
That's why I mentioned Nexus: the shuttles evacuating a destroyed ship would fit better and still add some connection to your crew that goes beyond "Is my crew gauge filled"?
i agree the escape pods in Nexus were really cool, and even important for some mission objectives. but in Nexus, all ships (iirc) had flight decks for fighters, bombers and boarding shuttles, so it made sense that escape pods could easily land on allied ships, even during battle. that part at least probably wouldn't make a lot of sense in SS, since it's hard to imagine all the escape pods of a disabled Onslaught landing on a single Hound^^

And hey, there's already a tiny shuttle that would fit the bill.
i think the pods would have to be even smaller than the command shuttle. the shuttle is about the size of some interceptors, so unless ships have the ability (and a reason to) shoot down enemy pods, it would probably be confusing to have a bunch of those darting around the battlefield. something Swarmer-SRM sized could work, maybe with a distinct engine trail that makes them easily distinguishable from actual missiles and other projectiles.

Very true. I wouldn't mind a stronger differentiation between crew level either. Maybe with greens normally bringing CR so low as to cause malfunctions.
that'd be cool! but then we would also need some way of controlling our fleet's crew distribution, instead of having some all-elite crews in the upper left of the fleet screen, and all-green ones in the lower right. could just work with a slightly altered version of the old "logistical priority" button, allowing us to designate high priority ships that get first pick of any experienced crew, but with the rest of the personnel evenly distributed across all other ships in the fleet.

i'd actually like to see more fights at low CR in general, and not just on high-tech frigates. although maybe that fancy new hullmod will have that effect anyway...

As a purely graphical effect that sounds as if it would fit well with sinking ships (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8476.0) :)
Hehehe you're chasing that Roadrunner really hard ;D   Tbh i would really like to see that implemented.
same! ^_^
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Lucian Greymark on October 28, 2015, 02:16:46 AM
I'm going to take the other side of the story here and say that I always feel very attached to my crew; like others I only buy green crew and therefore I watch each and every single one of them become elite slowly over time. It's always a wrench to lose crew and I'll often prefer to have an ailing ship retreat rather than let it get into trouble and lose some of my crew. I've always found that ships are somewhat replaceable; rarely do I see a lack of dominators or eagles in the various sectors, and it's always my crew that I've valued more than those ships.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on October 28, 2015, 02:50:03 PM
Is the AI going to get any better at leading missiles? It's embarrassing watching a half-dozen machine guns miss every shot because they won't aim in front of their target.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 28, 2015, 03:26:28 PM
Put an elite crew on your ships? :)

It's better at leading in general because it'll adjust the lead with time spent firing at the same target, but missiles don't get fired at for long enough for that to make much difference.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on October 28, 2015, 04:21:55 PM
I was using 100% crews. It was in the mission refit simulator, so that may make a difference.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 28, 2015, 04:50:00 PM
Continuing here to not derail that other thread further:

That reminds me, will a vengeful relationship be reversible/harder to acquire in .7? If a negative relationship to major factions becomes commonplace it would be a hassle to get permanently stuck there (easily).

No on both counts. It's not something you can acquire accidentally or, for that matter, easily - you'd have to pursue retreating enemy ships while already deep into "hostile".

Well, there isn't any kind of warning, so, yes, it happens accidentally. For once if you don't know about the consequences of pursuit - it is not communicated anywhere in the game IIRC - but also when you get distracted by a some objective you have. For example, if the flagship of a named bounty fleet gets damaged and retreats, or if you attacked a fleet to board a specific ship and it retreats.

It also works the other way around, when I'm not absolutely positive that my relation to a faction is still OKish I don't dare to pursuit them because they might permanently hate me.

In any case, some more transparency would be nice here.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 28, 2015, 04:58:17 PM
I was using 100% crews. It was in the mission refit simulator, so that may make a difference.

Hmm. Just ran a refit sim with a Lasher at 60% CR and LMGs; it had literally zero trouble shooting down incoming Pilums.



That reminds me, will a vengeful relationship be reversible/harder to acquire in .7? If a negative relationship to major factions becomes commonplace it would be a hassle to get permanently stuck there (easily).

No on both counts. It's not something you can acquire accidentally or, for that matter, easily - you'd have to pursue retreating enemy ships while already deep into "hostile".

Well, there isn't any kind of warning, so, yes, it happens accidentally. For once if you don't know about the consequences of pursuit - it is not communicated anywhere in the game IIRC - but also when you get distracted by a some objective you have. For example, if the flagship of a named bounty fleet gets damaged and retreats, or if you attacked a fleet to board a specific ship and it retreats.

It also works the other way around, when I'm not absolutely positive that my relation to a faction is still OKish I don't dare to pursuit them because they might permanently hate me.

In any case, some more transparency would be nice here.

Fair enough re: transparency. But in that case you're still engaged in deliberate hostilities with that faction, so I don't know if I'd call entirely accidental. Might make sense to make "hostile" the "can't recover from this" level at some point, though (or, alternatively, allow some form of recovery from "vengeful".) Either approach would necessitate some other kind of differentiation between the levels, but being encouraged to be at -75 but not -76 doesn't feel like it's a good thing.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 28, 2015, 07:32:46 PM
If I want to kill non-combat ships like say... cargo ships, I must have relations no lower than -70 or else I permanently lose markets.  (Even smuggling is impossible at Vengeful.)  The only way to destroy non-combatants like say... a relief fleet, is to pursue and kill them.  I only pursue targets if relations are -70 or higher.  Otherwise, pursuit is never a viable option.  Losing markets ruins your game forever.

Whenever I sell stuff at the Black Market and raise relations with Pirates, I take advantage of higher relations to pursue them until relations are back below -70.

Whenever I fight, relations with who I fight will be at -75 quickly.


P.S. Being able to build my own stuff, or stealing enemies' bases would mitigate Vengeful relations.  I would love to be my own self-reliant faction bent on exterminating all factions.  Who cares if everyone hates me if I can make everything I need to run my war machine?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 28, 2015, 07:58:19 PM
Hmm. Thinking about this some more, for now I think it makes sense to just make "vengeful" recoverable from the same way "hostile" is. Doesn't sound like people are really winding up much in "vengeful" intentionally to begin with, and all it's doing is cutting out pursuit scenarios.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on October 28, 2015, 08:53:59 PM
I was using 100% crews. It was in the mission refit simulator, so that may make a difference.
Hmm. Just ran a refit sim with a Lasher at 60% CR and LMGs; it had literally zero trouble shooting down incoming Pilums.

To clarify, I meant missiles going around or past the ship. The Salamander is an obvious example, but any missile going past at a decent clip or distance is consistently missed. Missiles coming straight on are easily hit, and missiles at not-too-big of an angle get hit due to spread.

IIRC, 0.7 Pilums have 50 health and 125 speed, so they don't make the best example ;)


In any case, I'll be doing more testing as part of something I'm working on so I'll report back then with what I see.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: LazyWizard on October 28, 2015, 09:05:22 PM
Hmm. Thinking about this some more, for now I think it makes sense to just make "vengeful" recoverable from the same way "hostile" is. Doesn't sound like people are really winding up much in "vengeful" intentionally to begin with, and all it's doing is cutting out pursuit scenarios.

Maybe instead of pursuit pushing you into Vengeful, you could gain that status by having your fleet destroy ships that reactivate after battle (presuming the boarding code still does that)? These ships are helpless; the only reason to shoot them after they reactivate is to get a tiny bit more loot. I could see factions taking it as the equivalent of shooting down escape pods.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 28, 2015, 09:44:32 PM
Maybe instead of pursuit pushing you into Vengeful, you could gain that status by having your fleet destroy ships that reactivate after battle (presuming the boarding code still does that)? These ships are helpless; the only reason to shoot them after they reactivate is to get a tiny bit more loot. I could see factions taking it as the equivalent of shooting down escape pods.

That'd make in-fiction sense, yeah. But it'd also make blowing up those ships a newbie trap, and essentially remove it from the game otherwise, wouldn't it? (I.E. no one that knows what they're doing would do it.) I think it might be easier just to table it for now and revisit later when there are a few more things for reputation to do.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Bribe Guntails on October 29, 2015, 02:53:07 AM
Vengeful status could be reached through a variety of actions that sum up to a sufficient degree.
Relentless hostility, preying on merchant shipping, overtly harming owned markets.

These actions can be further highlighted to the player through the text feed that scrolls down the left when docked or interacting with a fleet. Traders begging for mercy, pirates acknowledging your reputation, organizations denouncing you; all these warn you that continued hostility will push you into the No-Turning-Back zone.

What ye think?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 29, 2015, 03:30:02 AM
Doesn't sound like people are really winding up much in "vengeful" intentionally

And why would they, there's no benefit in that, just lost opportunities. Maybe if that would be changed, it could become more attractive. Either with a compensation, like a big reputation gain with the faction's enemies.
You could even block the "cooperative" standing with a faction until you're "vengeful" with their main enemy, so you basically have to go out there and murder a bunch of their helpless ships to prove yourself, gang war style. Sector 's not a nice place, right?

Or with an interesting mechanic, e.g. the faction sending head hunters after you.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Lucian Greymark on October 29, 2015, 07:17:09 AM
Vengeful status always seemed like something that you'd have to do something particularly nasty to do, like targeting supply ships heading to a planet, or making a planet's economy collapse via overselling. Stuff like that that would put hundreds of thousands, or millions, of the faction's people in jeopardy.

Just a thought
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 29, 2015, 07:51:13 AM
Vengeful should be earned after a major, strategic event, like capturing a major base (or blowing it up with the Death Star).  Chasing fleeing peons in a tactical skirmish should not be enough - it is WAR!  Why are factions' enemies not Vengeful at each other?

If I do something like capture and hold Jangala from the Hegemony, that should earn Vengeful from them.  Chasing down a few ships like pirates for a little extra loot and XP should not - no one is Vengeful at Pirates for doing that.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 29, 2015, 08:26:46 AM
If the player can't chase down fleet without putting it into Vengeful status, they why can the AI do it without penalty?  The AI will always choose to pursue your fleet even if it's on the brink of Vengeful, without penalty as well.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on October 29, 2015, 08:36:29 AM
I just posted a new topic regarding Vengeful relations.  We should continue that discussion there instead of clogging patch notes here.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Histidine on October 30, 2015, 03:16:07 AM
Quick API question: Is this the right way to get the "primary" loser of a battle?
Code: java
public void reportBattleFinished(CampaignFleetAPI winner, BattleAPI battle)
    {
        CampaignFleetAPI loser = battle.getOtherSideFor(winner).get(0);
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 30, 2015, 10:11:04 AM
Close - you want:

Code: java
public void reportBattleFinished(CampaignFleetAPI winner, BattleAPI battle)
    {
        CampaignFleetAPI loser = battle.getPrimary(battle.getOtherSideFor(winner));

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 31, 2015, 09:09:48 PM
Well, just thought I'd mention the names of some of the new systems (and the contents of one of them) here, since it fits nicely with the patch notes. :)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CScpJAaVAAA-Sj9.png

Hybrasil, Yma, Aztlan, and Samarra are what we know right now of the 7 new systems.  Samarra has 4 markets, a few less than Corvus.  Three of them belong to the Hegemony, and one to the Independents.  One of those stations is Eventide, size 6 - what is that, a million people?  Seems pretty sizable compared to the rest of the sector.

Also, really, REALLY nice that the sector map finally lists the market names.  What's more, we got the market size and the planet description - nice touch. :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 01, 2015, 09:09:59 AM
Hybrasil, Yma, Aztlan, and Samarra are what we know right now of the 7 new systems.

Interesting names:

Hybrasil
Quote
Brasil, also known as Hy-Brasil or several other variants, is a phantom island said to lie in the Atlantic Ocean west of Ireland. Irish myths described it as cloaked in mist except for one day every seven years, when it became visible but still could not be reached.

Aztlan
Quote
Aztlán is the legendary ancestral home of the Aztec peoples. Historians have speculated about the possible location of Aztlan and tend to place it either in northwestern Mexico or the southwest US, although there are significant doubts about whether the place is purely mythical or represents a historical reality.

Samarra
Quote
The Samarra culture is a Chalcolithic archaeological culture in northern Mesopotamia that is roughly dated to 5500–4800 BCE. At Tell es-Sawwan, evidence of irrigation—including flax—establishes the presence of a prosperous settled culture with a highly organized social structure. The culture is primarily known for its finely made pottery decorated with stylized animals, including birds, and geometric designs on dark backgrounds.

Got nothing on Yma.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 01, 2015, 10:12:40 AM
Interesting names:

Hybrasil
Quote
Brasil, also known as Hy-Brasil or several other variants, is a phantom island said to lie in the Atlantic Ocean west of Ireland. Irish myths described it as cloaked in mist except for one day every seven years, when it became visible but still could not be reached.
Ohhh, that's interesting.  If there was to be something interesting about the system, I might guess that there's a lot of gas giants in that system pumping out a lot of campaign map nebulae - seems fitting if you ask me.

Speaking of campaign map obstacles (like asteroid fields, nebulae, etc.), will those be represented on the system/sector map (the one that you bring up with "M")?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: mendonca on November 01, 2015, 11:37:15 AM

Got nothing on Yma.


I've got a Norse giantess, I think (solely via searching the Internet, no inherent knowledge, not entirely sure) looks like maybe specifically Icelandic. I can't download an academic paper to try and get the proper context.

Also Yma Sumac, interestingly (given the Aztlan thing) the stage name of a Peruvian singer (with an extraordinary vocal range) who claims direct descendent to Incan royalty.

Also apparently Welsh for 'here'. I guess if the Welsh went to space and settled a system - why wouldn't they call it 'here'? :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 02, 2015, 09:18:12 AM
A question, since I'm toying with the idea of upgrading my PC a bit: how is game performance coming along? Does it get faster with optimization or slower from added content? I'm interested in performance in battle and campaign.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 02, 2015, 09:53:24 AM
A question, since I'm toying with the idea of upgrading my PC a bit: how is game performance coming along? Does it get faster with optimization or slower from added content? I'm interested in performance in battle and campaign.

The campaign is probably a little more demanding, but it shouldn't be anything drastic. More or less trying to optimize things to keep pace with the increased load from extra content.

The main case where you need more performance is if you max out the battle size and get into a fight with multiple fleets at the same time. That can get quite demanding.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 02, 2015, 10:07:08 AM
But with unaltered battle size the number of ships in combat at any one time is the same as before, right?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 02, 2015, 10:27:27 AM
It's not exactly the same, since deployment costs are different (based on supplies, with "fleet points" no longer being a visible stat) and the battle size is higher to accommodate that (as the deployment costs of capitals are considerably higher), and the ratios of ships that end up in combat aren't the same as before. For example, right now, relatively more frigates can end up on the field, and a super-frigate-heavy battle will require more system resources. I'm still tweaking things related to that, though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 02, 2015, 11:52:44 AM
Alright, sounds good. Thanks for the info :) 
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on November 02, 2015, 01:18:42 PM
Isn't Starsector very GPU bound? Just get a fairly recent vid card and you should be fine.

I have a GTX 680 and I don't ever recall framerate stutter.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 02, 2015, 01:30:42 PM
Isn't Starsector very GPU bound? Just get a fairly recent vid card and you should be fine.

I have a GTX 680 and I don't ever recall framerate stutter.
Then you didn't tried it with enough mods  ;)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 02, 2015, 05:04:39 PM
Isn't Starsector very GPU bound? Just get a fairly recent vid card and you should be fine.

I have a GTX 680 and I don't ever recall framerate stutter.
Mostly CPU actually, as far as I know. The GPU stuff comes from shaderlib
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 02, 2015, 05:13:37 PM
If I understand it correctly, it's kind of both. Starsector has high graphics overhead, so there is a lot of time spent in the graphics driver, which is CPU work but how efficient it is can depend on what GPU you have.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on November 02, 2015, 05:29:09 PM
Since this is OpenGL, go with NVidia. Game doesn't run too well on most ATI cards since the 7XXX lineup.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on November 02, 2015, 07:06:54 PM
That is quite true from first hand experience
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 02, 2015, 08:50:49 PM
If I understand it correctly, it's kind of both. Starsector has high graphics overhead, so there is a lot of time spent in the graphics driver, which is CPU work but how efficient it is can depend on what GPU you have.

It's not your video card, it's your video driver that matters.  Starsector barely even scratches a modern GPU, but the CPU overhead is significant, and depends entirely on the driver.  NVidia's drivers are better, naturally.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 02, 2015, 09:23:07 PM
If I understand it correctly, it's kind of both. Starsector has high graphics overhead, so there is a lot of time spent in the graphics driver, which is CPU work but how efficient it is can depend on what GPU you have.

It's not your video card, it's your video driver that matters.  Starsector barely even scratches a modern GPU, but the CPU overhead is significant, and depends entirely on the driver.  NVidia's drivers are better, naturally.
Except now when you have Win 10
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 03, 2015, 02:30:43 AM


It's not your video card, it's your video driver that matters.

Well, yes, but what driver you have depends on what video card you have. Even within a single vendor; older cards stop getting updates after a while so they might not perform as newest models even if they have more than enough power. Although I'm not sure if any significant amount of work still goes into legacy OpenGL drivers.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 03, 2015, 05:42:40 PM
Is there going to be a tutorial or some campaign help messages for the new features?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 03, 2015, 05:49:02 PM
Updated OP with another batch of notes.

Is there going to be a tutorial or some campaign help messages for the new features?

No, but there are lots of tooltips and in-context explanations for why things are happening (or aren't), so I'm hopeful that'll be sufficient.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Nanao-kun on November 03, 2015, 05:53:18 PM
Updated OP with another batch of notes.

Is there going to be a tutorial or some campaign help messages for the new features?

No, but there are lots of tooltips and in-context explanations for why things are happening (or aren't), so I'm hopeful that'll be sufficient.
Oh, nice.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 03, 2015, 06:17:15 PM
Navigation skill: now reduces burn level penalties from terrain by 5% per level <--- Is this a bonus or is it replacing the burn speed boost?
Helmsmanship level 5 perk: now grants maneuverability bonus instead of top speed with zero flux <--- No more zero speed flux boost at 20%? Why? And don't we already have another maneuverability skill/ perk?
Safety Overrides: now also extends overload duration by 50% <--- OUch, that's gonna hurt along with the high OP usage and its other drawbacks...
Curious about these
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 03, 2015, 06:20:32 PM
Navigation skill: now reduces burn level penalties from terrain by 5% per level <--- Is this a bonus or is it replacing the burn speed boost?

Replacing.

Helmsmanship level 5 perk: now grants maneuverability bonus instead of top speed with zero flux <--- No more zero speed flux boost at 20%? Why? And don't we already have another maneuverability skill/ perk?

The level 5 perk was an extra +25 to the boost. Level 10 was the "have it at up to 25%".

Why? It was getting a bit out of hand with ships getting too much top speed and not enough acceleration. With AI controlled ships receiving these bonuses now, it was too much for it to handle.


Safety Overrides: now also extends overload duration by 50% <--- OUch, that's gonna hurt along with the high OP usage and its other drawbacks...

It's still really good. Had an Eagle in my fleet with SO and a dps-focused officer and, seriously, it made things disappear.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 03, 2015, 06:29:06 PM
Hey, I wasn't expecting this.  Awesome!

"A chief investigator is assigned and can be talked to to resolve any misunderstandings"

Wait, if you can't be wrongly accused anymore (as per the change 2 lines above that), then what's the point of this?  Or is it just bribing the chief investigator?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 03, 2015, 06:31:07 PM
Wait, if you can't be wrongly accused anymore (as per the change 2 lines above that), then what's the point of this?  Or is it just bribing the chief investigator?

That's just such a crass way of putting it. No one is bribing anyone!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 03, 2015, 06:33:20 PM
Hehe, I understand. ;)

"Evenly-matched or weaker fleets may follow you around waiting for an opportunity instead of fleeing or ignoring your fleet"

I absolutely love this change!  Might make the fleets feel a lot more human - I do this pretty damn often myself.

"Added "radio chatter" sounds when near a market"

Beautiful!  Adds a bit of life to the system.

"Valhalla: improved accessibility of Ragnar Complex and nearby markets"

Also, assuming you added a warp point to the other star in the binary system?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on November 03, 2015, 06:59:50 PM
"Valhalla: improved accessibility of Ragnar Complex and nearby markets"

Also, assuming you added a warp point to the other star in the binary system?

It would be neat if there were a jump point inside the system from near Valhalla to near Ragnar. It would make Ragnar still feel remote even though it's accessible whereas a jump point from hyperspace wouldn't.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 03, 2015, 07:11:18 PM
Also, assuming you added a warp point to the other star in the binary system?

Yep.

It would be neat if there were a jump point inside the system from near Valhalla to near Ragnar. It would make Ragnar still feel remote even though it's accessible whereas a jump point from hyperspace wouldn't.

Hmm, interesting idea.


I absolutely love this change!  Might make the fleets feel a lot more human - I do this pretty damn often myself.

It's been pretty fun in testing :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on November 03, 2015, 07:12:46 PM
It would be cool and a cheap quality of life fix if the burn speed bonus applied to a very small range from 0%-1% flux. There are a couple of instances where flux hovers in the single or double digits but passive dissipation is enough to *theoretically* keep it at 0. It's only the way that flux is added that prevents it from dissipating more than it accumulates and therefore staying at 0%.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 03, 2015, 07:13:59 PM
Navigation skill: now reduces burn level penalties from terrain by 5% per level <--- Is this a bonus or is it replacing the burn speed boost?
Replacing.
Wow, that is gonna be a change! Why the change of heart? Are you adding a new skill with the burn speed boosts in it or are they gone forever? Also why have the burn speed meter goes up to 20 when most likely 16 IIRC is the highest with all of the boosts?

Helmsmanship level 5 perk: now grants maneuverability bonus instead of top speed with zero flux <--- No more zero speed flux boost at 20%? Why? And don't we already have another maneuverability skill/ perk?
The level 5 perk was an extra +25 to the boost. Level 10 was the "have it at up to 25%".
Why? It was getting a bit out of hand with ships getting too much top speed and not enough acceleration. With AI controlled ships receiving these bonuses now, it was too much for it to handle.
Ah OK, was a bit confused there by the wording.

Safety Overrides: now also extends overload duration by 50% <--- OUch, that's gonna hurt along with the high OP usage and its other drawbacks...
It's still really good. Had an Eagle in my fleet with SO and a dps-focused officer and, seriously, it made things disappear.
Are any variants going to have SO in them? It seems like the AI wouldn't be a good user of it because once it overloads, it will most likely die
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 03, 2015, 07:15:20 PM
It would be cool and a cheap quality of life fix if the burn speed bonus applied to a very small range from 0%-1% flux. There are a couple of instances where flux hovers in the single or double digits but passive dissipation is enough to *theoretically* keep it at 0. It's only the way that flux is added that prevents it from dissipating more than it accumulates and therefore staying at 0%.

The way it works is intentional; don't want to have the speed bonus apply while shields are up. In fact, when you see the flux level switching values rapidly in the single digits? That's just a visual thing to indicate that there's a flux drain on the system, even though the dissipation is enough to take care of all of it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 03, 2015, 07:16:09 PM
Looks solid! I'm very very happy navigation is changed to remove the burn speed boosts - now ships can be a reasonable speed at start without zipping around like crazy at endgame.

Quote
Terrain adjustments:
    Nebulas and asteroid rings/fields now reduce fleet speed based on fleet size instead of reducing the burn level of individual ships

Does this mean that a small fleet can theoretically get away from a faster big fleet (say.... an armada of pirate frigates) by ducking into a hazard and shaking sensor range?


I'm SO looking forward to putting SO on things! ;)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on November 03, 2015, 07:19:18 PM
Ah okay, that makes sense. I always use the speed bonus as more of a thing to be gamed rather than a simple bonus that mostly just applies to the pre-combat stage. But I guess the removal of the flux speed perk from the skill tree now puts it firmly into that noncombat corner.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 03, 2015, 07:22:12 PM
Wow, that is gonna be a change! Why the change of heart? Are you adding a new skill with the burn speed boosts in it or are they gone forever? Also why have the burn speed meter goes up to 20 when most likely 16 IIRC is the highest with all of the boosts?

Gone for now. Why? It makes terrain a bit more important if you're really trying to either chase someone down or escape, where the flat burn level boosts were just a bit too good, even lowered as they were. I'd like forcing/avoiding engagements to heavily come down to ability and terrain use rather than purely having higher numbers.

You still *can* get a bit of a boost with tugs and Augmented Engines. Combined with Navigation, it just felt like too much.

Are any variants going to have SO in them? It seems like the AI wouldn't be a good user of it because once it overloads, it will most likely die

A few. The AI is pretty good about not overloading when it's not about to die anyway, and the variants are very deadly.


Does this mean that a small fleet can theoretically get away from a faster big fleet (say.... an armada of pirate frigates) by ducking into a hazard and shaking sensor range?

Yes! Though the pursuing fleet will keep looking for you for a while, even after they lose you.

I'm SO looking forward to putting SO on things! ;)

Oh, you.


Ah okay, that makes sense. I always use the speed bonus as more of a thing to be gamed rather than a simple bonus that mostly just applies to the pre-combat stage. But I guess the removal of the flux speed perk from the skill tree now puts it firmly into that noncombat corner.

The perk that allows its use at up to 25% flux is still there. But, yeah, without that the primary intent for the bonus is "help ships move about the battlefield outside of combat". Plus to game it, yes, but having to lower shields is part of the tradeoff there.


Hey, even Alex isn't immune to the quote mishap. :D

Thanks, fixed :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 03, 2015, 07:55:37 PM
Hey, even Alex isn't immune to the quote mishap. :D

That aside, nice to know why a ship loses it's speed bonus even though your flux dissipation can keep up.

EDIT:
I suppose this belongs here since it's about the update, but Alex said on his Twitter that he's planning for "a bit more marketing stuff" for the 0.7a release.  Just thought I'd let you guys know.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Achataeon on November 03, 2015, 08:56:06 PM
Quote
Evenly-matched or weaker fleets may follow you around waiting for an opportunity instead of fleeing or ignoring your fleet

I could totally see a mass of fleets waiting for you to enter a battle.

Is there a limit to how much fleets will follow you? Or a limit on how long they will follow you for?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 03, 2015, 09:40:17 PM
I could totally see a mass of fleets waiting for you to enter a battle.

Is there a limit to how much fleets will follow you? Or a limit on how long they will follow you for?

They'll follow you around until 1) you lose them 2) they decide to go back to port or 3) they reach a critical mass where they want to attack.

The personality of each fleet's commander plays into this; for example an aggressive commander might decide to engage earlier, forcing their less-aggressive allies - that would otherwise be content to follow you - to also join battle. You can't see what their personality is, of course, so in gameplay terms that just mixes it up a bit to keep the behavior from being entirely predictable.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Achataeon on November 03, 2015, 10:19:28 PM
Another question:

Does the emergency burn have lag? i.e. You activate emergency burn and there's a small delay between the activation and EB taking effect.

Thing is you could (with skill) EB away from a fleet that is burning towards you.

You'd have enough time, then, to get to a friendly fleet to assist you in taking care of the fleets that are following you.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 03, 2015, 10:48:33 PM
It occurs to me that this scenario is possible in the monogamy event logic:

Faction A is friendly with Faction B.
Player is friendly with both Faction A and Faction B.
Faction A and Faction B are angry about this and both drop the player to Inhospitable.

Only cooperative seems to block it, which causes weird edge cases like this.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 04, 2015, 12:31:34 AM
Added "radio chatter" sounds when near a market
Hehe, I like that one!  ;)
Quote
  • CombatUIAPI
    • addMessage(int newLineIndentIndex, Object ... params)
  • FluxTrackerAPI.stopVenting()
  • ShieldAPI
    • toggleOn()
  • ShipAPI
    • void setVentCoreTexture(String textureId);
    • void setVentFringeTexture(String textureId);
  • ViewportAPI
    • void setCenter(Vector2f c);
  • boolean isModEnabled(String id);
Holly molly, that's mod Christmas in advance!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Adraius on November 04, 2015, 02:19:17 AM
"Valhalla: improved accessibility of Ragnar Complex and nearby markets"

Also, assuming you added a warp point to the other star in the binary system?

It would be neat if there were a jump point inside the system from near Valhalla to near Ragnar. It would make Ragnar still feel remote even though it's accessible whereas a jump point from hyperspace wouldn't.
Huh - sounds a lot like how Lagrange points work in Aurora if I'm understanding you correctly.  Those would be cool.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Histidine on November 04, 2015, 03:50:18 AM
It occurs to me that this scenario is possible in the monogamy event logic:

Faction A is friendly with Faction B.
Player is friendly with both Faction A and Faction B.
Faction A and Faction B are angry about this and both drop the player to Inhospitable.

Only cooperative seems to block it, which causes weird edge cases like this.
Yeah, I was gonna bring this up too.
Spoiler
Ideally it should modify the thresholds, reputation penalty and bribes needed based on the relationship between the two factions. Say:

Scenario 1:
A neutral with B
Player welcoming with B

Scenario 2:
A favorable with B
Player friendly with B

Scenario 3:
A favorable with B
Player welcoming with B

Scenarios 1 and 2 should have the same rep penalties and bribes required, and scenario 3 should have no investigation at all.

On the flip side, if A and B don't like each other the penalties/bribes should increase. The "welcoming or better" threshold should probably remain though; Tri-Tachyon shouldn't get yandere with you just because you have favorable status with the Luddic Church.
[close]

Also:
  • Maintaining positive reputation with more than one major faction (Diktat, Hegemony, Tri-Tachyon, Luddic Church) is not possible for very long; will eventually become hostile to all but one
I take this to mean the Persean League still isn't in the game. Whyyyyy? I want my space EU!  :(

(Also Sindrian Diktat as a "major" faction seems a bit odd; I always "read" them as a mere single-system polity of limited importance in the Sector's grand scheme of things. Looks like all the modders thought so too, given they don't give it any new markets like they do for Hegemony/TT/the Church. The more you know!)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 04, 2015, 05:03:01 AM
Faction A is friendly with Faction B.
Player is friendly with both Faction A and Faction B.
Faction A and Faction B are angry about this and both drop the player to Inhospitable.

I think none of the major factions are friendly with each other, so that scenario doesn't come up. It could in mods though, I suppose?


Maintaining positive reputation with more than one major faction (Diktat, Hegemony, Tri-Tachyon, Luddic Church) is not possible for very long; will eventually become hostile to all but one

Is it possible to lower the reputation with a faction in a controlled manner to avoid that? Seems like it could get friendly without the player wanting it to, because he took advantage of food shortage events or bounties .


Smuggling investigation:
Can be covered up (reducing chances/avoiding investigation entirely) by also selling on open market
Mh, it would be great to have some kind o feedback about our chances when smuggling. How much can I buy on the black market without raising suspicion? How much do I have to trade legally to cover things up? How about a rough "market authority suspicion level" indicator with a few green-yellow-red stages (e.g. inconspicuous, wary, under observation, highly suspicious).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 04, 2015, 05:24:32 AM
I think none of the major factions are friendly with each other, so that scenario doesn't come up. It could in mods though, I suppose?
The new Ludd sub-faction could fit this case, or the Lion's guard. But yeah, mod factions will cause some big issues with the monogamy: even in the case of factions neutral to each other, the idea that if you get friendly with just one faction you suddenly are enemy with 10 or 15+ others doesn't sound fun...

You would be confined to the immediate vicinity of your home-planet because every-time you move just a toe outside you get swarmed by a combined battle of dozens of fleets! With no help if your "faction" is only inhospitable with them.

And with a dynamic sector like in Nexerelin or (hopefully) vanilla later on, it enforces a constant state of free-for-all war.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 04, 2015, 05:46:40 AM
That's only if you get really chummy with a faction AND the investigation finds you guilty though. Also I assume we might be able to flag which factions are mutually incompatible.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 04, 2015, 05:53:04 AM
That's only if you get really chummy with a faction AND the investigation finds you guilty though. Also I assume we might be able to flag which factions are mutually incompatible.
Maintaining positive reputation with more than one major faction (Diktat, Hegemony, Tri-Tachyon, Luddic Church) is not possible for very long; will eventually become hostile to all but one
So no you can't stay friendly with more than one faction, and even then, you'd have to pay a lot of money to maintain more than a few in a positive state. Basically if you get cooperative with someone, you can no longer trade, and only hunt their bounties. If this applied only to mutually hostile factions it would be fine, but in it's current implementation that's not the case.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 04, 2015, 06:11:42 AM
So no you can't stay friendly with more than one faction, and even then, you'd have to pay a lot of money to maintain more than a few in a positive state. Basically if you get cooperative with someone, you can no longer trade, and only hunt their bounties. If this applied only to mutually hostile factions it would be fine, but in it's current implementation that's not the case.

Major factions. The Independents are out, and surely the Pathers and Pirates, too. So I'm pretty sure you can decouple your mod faction from that dynamic as well.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 04, 2015, 06:31:41 AM
Recently, I watched how much max vents give and, at least for Hyperion, is not double base dissipation.  If I need to choose between max vents or Safety Override, I probably will use Safety Override because top speed and vent speed are very important stats.  Of course, if I can fit Safety Override while still getting everything else I want (especially on OP generous ships like Dominator), then I get everything.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 04, 2015, 06:58:17 AM
Starsector make you feel like this  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 04, 2015, 08:32:07 AM
The two controls available to the modder per faction are:
1. Does reputation investigations
2. Is considered by other factions for reputation investigations
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 04, 2015, 11:10:20 AM
Does the emergency burn have lag? i.e. You activate emergency burn and there's a small delay between the activation and EB taking effect.

Thing is you could (with skill) EB away from a fleet that is burning towards you.

You'd have enough time, then, to get to a friendly fleet to assist you in taking care of the fleets that are following you.

It takes a couple of seconds to ramp up to the full bonus.


It occurs to me that this scenario is possible in the monogamy event logic:

Faction A is friendly with Faction B.
Player is friendly with both Faction A and Faction B.
Faction A and Faction B are angry about this and both drop the player to Inhospitable.

Only cooperative seems to block it, which causes weird edge cases like this.

That's actually intentional, but a bit academic since it would make no difference in vanilla. A mod that put in nuanced diplomacy - at least, nuanced to the point where there'd be a difference to setting factions to "friendly" vs "cooperative" - could also replace the event entirely.


Added "radio chatter" sounds when near a market
Hehe, I like that one!  ;)

I'm shocked! :) Stian actually found that video you put together and was, shall we say, rather enthused about getting this in the game. I think it turned out really well, too. So - thank you!


(Also Sindrian Diktat as a "major" faction seems a bit odd; I always "read" them as a mere single-system polity of limited importance in the Sector's grand scheme of things. Looks like all the modders thought so too, given they don't give it any new markets like they do for Hegemony/TT/the Church. The more you know!)

"Major" might be the wrong word here. In their case, it's more "suspicious and insular".


Is it possible to lower the reputation with a faction in a controlled manner to avoid that? Seems like it could get friendly without the player wanting it to, because he took advantage of food shortage events or bounties.

Sure - selling on the black market is one way. Another, more reliable way is to get caught with your transponder off. Establishing your "street cred", if you will.


Mh, it would be great to have some kind o feedback about our chances when smuggling. How much can I buy on the black market without raising suspicion? How much do I have to trade legally to cover things up? How about a rough "market authority suspicion level" indicator with a few green-yellow-red stages (e.g. inconspicuous, wary, under observation, highly suspicious).

Hmm. Yeah, this sounds like a very good idea. Not sure if I'll be able to sneak it in for this release, though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 04, 2015, 11:57:29 AM
Is navigation still going to have the ability to use stars as one way jump points?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 04, 2015, 12:07:23 PM
I'm shocked! :) Stian actually found that video you put together and was, shall we say, rather enthused about getting this in the game. I think it turned out really well, too. So - thank you!
Glad to be of service.

That's actually intentional, but a bit academic since it would make no difference in vanilla. A mod that put in nuanced diplomacy - at least, nuanced to the point where there'd be a difference to setting factions to "friendly" vs "cooperative" - could also replace the event entirely.
Is there a way in-game to know which factions can trigger an investigation or not? Because unless I'm mistaken, all mod factions that have at least one "ally" (ie one faction above suspicious) will have to opt out the inspections... Witch could become really confusing if mod Faction A can lower your reputation with the Hegemony, but mod Faction B do not. Plus it really limit the usefulness of that feature since you won't interact with those that do trigger the even while trading happily with the others.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ratheden on November 04, 2015, 01:04:07 PM
Us little people are eager to see this released!
Thanks for the hard work Alex.

My question
Friendly fire incidents will cause a reputation drop depending on the severity
    Very serious incidents will drop reputation all the way to hostile

Will computer controlled ships on my side be cause'n much friendly fire, or is this only based on my own dumb errors?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 04, 2015, 01:11:33 PM
Is navigation still going to have the ability to use stars as one way jump points?

Yes.

Is there a way in-game to know which factions can trigger an investigation or not? Because unless I'm mistaken, all mod factions that have at least one "ally" (ie one faction above suspicious) will have to opt out the inspections... Witch could become really confusing if mod Faction A can lower your reputation with the Hegemony, but mod Faction B do not. Plus it really limit the usefulness of that feature since you won't interact with those that do trigger the even while trading happily with the others.

Well, you'll get a notice that they're investigating you, so there's that! The first time around the consequences (if any) are minor, it's intended as a warning.

Unless I'm missing something, can't mod factions with allies just set those relationships to cooperative? Then you can have sets of allies that you could be friendly with at the same time.

Beyond that, you could still get some trade done with your transponder off; and even more if the faction doesn't require the transponder on for legitimate trade.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 04, 2015, 01:48:42 PM
Quick question:  Do we still respawn in Corvus if our fleet wipes anywhere (i.e., TPK)?  If so, that seems like a reason to be friendly with Hegemony if only to avoid harassment while we pick up replacements in Corvus.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 04, 2015, 02:10:50 PM
Quick question:  Do we still respawn in Corvus if our fleet wipes anywhere (i.e., TPK)?  If so, that seems like a reason to be friendly with Hegemony if only to avoid harassment while we pick up replacements in Corvus.

Yes, but I've been meaning to adjust that...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 04, 2015, 03:07:14 PM
If being affiliated with a major faction makes the rest of the majors hate you, then what I like to see (after 0.7) is letting a free agent player (you) become big enough to be (recognized as) a major faction, declare your independence, and make all major factions hate you (because you are friendly with the major faction known as yourself).

I like to see the designated player's Lone Star to become on par... nay, superior than the rest of the major factions (e.g., bigger than even Hegemony), even if the player needs to work for it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 04, 2015, 03:12:18 PM
@Megas
I almost don't think that's in the scope of the vanilla game.  You might be large enough to become a corporate threat to the Hegemony or Tri-Tachyon (when Industry roles around), but militarily - not based on your skill alone, mind you - I don't think that's ever meant to happen.  When the description of SS says "Leave your mark upon the world and determine the fate of the Sector with your decisions", I don't think Alex ever meant for the player to just take over the sector.  The factions are simply too well-entrenched for a random person to take it over, even if they have to work long and hard for it.  It would take something of colossal magnitude to dig them out - something like another Collapse.
(well, that's just what I think - not sure what's going on in Alex's head)

Also, would be nice if you could respawn at least somewhat near the system that you got splattered over the side of you hull on.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 04, 2015, 03:40:33 PM
A lot of things can change in a generation.  If the player is willing to grind for twenty or more cycles to make sector domination possible, so be it.  It could be that the established powers were simply not as ruthless and bold as the player is.  (Or if they were, became arrogant, complacent, and incompetent before player entered the scene.)

It is possible to translate player exploiting AI or otherwise winning against impossible odds (like soloing fleet after fleet with chain-frigate flagships) as a legendary revolutionary able to do the impossible and unite the sector (under his heel)... or destroy it.

I do not like the idea of playing paperboy to one or more factions like it is done now.  Sure, using one faction is smart, but it would be fun if there is a unique benefit for creating my own faction and redraw the map (even if I lose out on some things).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 04, 2015, 04:19:04 PM
Isn't it the backstory of the Sindrian Dictat basically what Megas is talking about though? One person with a battlefleet who takes over a system and declares themselves the ruler. I'm guessing there was some serious asskicking involved that stopped the Hegemony from just snapping them up again.

[Edit] To clarify - I think it would be totally possible, just difficult. Which is not a bad thing.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 04, 2015, 04:27:12 PM
You see, the way that you think isn't the way that most people think (in reality or in games) - which means it won't be accepted very much.  The same outlook is going to be taken by the factions in-game if you decide to go that route - and when everyone hates you, you won't last very long.  If you take the AI frmo the Civilization games, they know how to exploit that - dog-piling on the faction in question.  So even if you do manage to grind the 20 cycles to gain power (and you aren't picked off in the meantime, not taking into consideration SS's never-dying-main-character syndrome), you're probably going to be dog-piled by all the other factions and get your faction wiped out very quickly.  It doesn't matter how good in combat you are - you can't  be everywhere at once.

Besides, a lot of what you usually say has a lot of base on exploiting the AI (by usually taking advantage of what the AI can't do when compared to a human) - not really the best base for a game mechanic, I think.

@Thaago
I think the Sindrian Diktat was created by the Hegemony themselves - not really by a rouge person invading and making a faction by themselves.  They had (and still have) the authority and power of the Hegemony behind them - think of the Sindrian Diktat as a satellite state of the Hegemony.

EDIT:
As a side note, did anyone notice that the Persian League, Ko Kombine, and even the Luddic Path are already in the the game?  Maybe not as a faction, but you can find their descriptions and flags in the game.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: David on November 04, 2015, 05:10:34 PM
Isn't it the backstory of the Sindrian Dictat basically what Megas is talking about though? One person with a battlefleet who takes over a system and declares themselves the ruler. I'm guessing there was some serious asskicking involved that stopped the Hegemony from just snapping them up again.

Yes, essentially. The political terrain there will make more sense when the Sector gets fleshed out some more.

( ... I have an enormous backstory document.  :-X)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 04, 2015, 05:13:48 PM
Couple of suggestions.

@Smuggling investigation: I think, if the player didn't resolve misunderstandings, there should be chance of him wrongly found guilty. There should be warning of course.

@Faction ties: Can it be like 'if faction A finds out the player is friendly with faction B which is below certain level of friendliness(suspecious by default and adjustable per faction) with faction A, it starts investigation'?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 04, 2015, 05:21:09 PM
I expect factions to dog-pile an upstart.  If the player can survive the dog-piling, he should be able to crush what is left.  Basically, bruised-yet-still-standing survivor says "Is that your best? My turn now!" <Cue slasher smile.>

I think the Sindrian Diktat was created by the Hegemony themselves - not really by a rouge person invading and making a faction by themselves.  They had (and still have) the authority and power of the Hegemony behind them - think of the Sindrian Diktat as a satellite state of the Hegemony.
In that case, neither faction should have a problem with you allying with either, but that will not be the case.  You become friends with one, the other (and everyone else) hates you.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 04, 2015, 05:35:21 PM
In that case, neither faction should have a problem with you allying with either, but that will not be the case.  You become friends with one, the other (and everyone else) hates you.
Well, in the words of Alex:
"'Major' might be the wrong word here. In their case, it's more 'suspicious and insular'."
It could be changed so that they're either not a major faction, or have them become at least Cooperative with the Hegemony so the rep balance change doesn't happen in some future patch notes.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Euqocelbbog on November 04, 2015, 07:40:53 PM
I expect factions to dog-pile an upstart.  If the player can survive the dog-piling, he should be able to crush what is left.  Basically, bruised-yet-still-standing survivor says "Is that your best? My turn now!" <Cue slasher smile.>

This is actually pretty similar to how Mount&Blade operates if the player tries to establish an independent kingdom. Because an upstart kingdom threatens the status quo and should be easy pickings, you'll rapidly face declarations of war from multiple other kingdoms and they'll bring enormous armies to try to crush you. Going rogue ends up being a difficult process that requires a great deal of preparation and isn't a very realistic proposition unless the player really knows how to play the system.

That's kind of how I'd imagine going rogue in SS would be like.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: David on November 04, 2015, 07:41:12 PM
In that case, neither faction should have a problem with you allying with either, but that will not be the case.  You become friends with one, the other (and everyone else) hates you.
Well, in the words of Alex:
"'Major' might be the wrong word here. In their case, it's more 'suspicious and insular'."
It could be changed so that they're either not a major faction, or have them become at least Cooperative with the Hegemony so the rep balance change doesn't happen in some future patch notes.

Oh, to clarify - Thaago's take was correct. Diktat and Hegemony do not get along as the Diktat was formed by the rogue admiral Andrada who (mis-)used Hegemony authority to intervene in the Askonian civil war, take over, and form the Sindrian Diktat. The Hegemony doesn't just invade because Askonia is at the center of a whole bunch of competing powers who, although they don't like the Diktat (who does?) enjoy its existence as a convenient thorn in the Hegemony's side.

... Some of these competing powers just aren't on the map yet, cough. But we'll get there!

(Will now restrain my info-dumping to overlong mission briefings and in-game descriptions.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 04, 2015, 07:44:37 PM
Ah, alright, thanks for the update David. :) Although, at the time of the raid Admiral Andrada had the power of the Hegemony behind him, so it doesn't qualify for what Megas wanted.

By the way - info-dump as much as you like, preferably here and before the patch hits. :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Bribe Guntails on November 04, 2015, 07:50:07 PM
Oh, to clarify - Thaago's take was correct. Diktat and Hegemony do not get along as the Diktat was formed by the rogue admiral Andrada who (mis-)used Hegemony authority to intervene in the Askonian civil war, take over, and form the Sindrian Diktat. The Hegemony doesn't just invade because Askonia is at the center of a whole bunch of competing powers who, although they don't like the Diktat (who does?) enjoy its existence as a convenient thorn in the Hegemony's side.

... Some of these competing powers just aren't on the map yet, cough. But we'll get there!

(Will now restrain my info-dumping to overlong mission briefings and in-game descriptions.)

...also not to mention that Askonia is the primary fuel provider for the sector (as of 0.65.2)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 04, 2015, 08:20:38 PM
I imagine that its been long enough by now that taking them out wouldn't be so easy... dictatorships so rounded by enemies tend to build large militaries at the expense of all else.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 04, 2015, 09:25:42 PM
And only a tiny fraction of the sector is now present in-game.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hopelessnoob on November 05, 2015, 01:56:03 AM
Why the nerf to the Atlas its already incredibly squishy did it get buffed in some other way?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 05, 2015, 02:55:30 AM
Establishing your "street cred", if you will.

Would be cool if that was an alternative/complementary way of resolving a "faction ties" investigation. "What, you think I like them Hegemony bastards just because I worked with them? Watch me!" **** gun*

Commander personality now has some effect on fleet behavior

Can you discover a commander's personality when you speak with them, or just via observation of their behavior? Also, I assume the fleet commander takes part in battle as a combat officer?


Battles in deep hyperspace no longer have nebula patches on the battlefield

What about asteroids? They seem like the less "hyperspacy" of the two.

...a special hyperspace terrain feature would be awesome at some point. Imagine suddenly opening rifts, or a maelstrom, or wormholes leading to the other side of the battle map ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 05, 2015, 04:20:57 AM
Re: Atlas losing flight deck:  I thought Atlas had zilch for mounts because of flight deck.  Prometheus, the big fuel tanker, can equip enough weapons to defend itself from enemy frigates.  The Atlas cannot.  Also, Prometheus has drones to add to its firepower, but Atlas just has worthless flares.

It would be nice if the Atlas can be buffed some other way, like upgrading it small mounts to mediums or replacing the system with something more useful.


I like that deep hyperspace has no nebula.  It is nice there are places with no terrain, no tricks, just plain nothing to get in the way in space.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 05, 2015, 05:44:39 AM
...a special hyperspace terrain feature would be awesome at some point. Imagine suddenly opening rifts, or a maelstrom, or wormholes leading to the other side of the battle map ;D
After a lengthy struggle and heavy loss, your fleet finally manages to overload enemy Onslaught. Reapers fly to deliver their deadly charge. Just as the first torpedo is about to find its mark, a wormhole opens, sending the giant capital into unknown area of battlefield. A minute later, your carriers report sensor contact, but that was their last communication...

Heck what did I just wrote?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: hurleybird on November 05, 2015, 06:04:22 AM
Quote
Augmented Engines: burn speed increase reduced to 1, now also reduces sensor strength by 50%/increases sensor profile by 50%, removed capacity penalty

Perhaps the penalty should be limited to the sensor profile?

1) The reduced sensor strength can, I assume, be nullified having a ship in the fleet with high sensor strength, while the sensor profile has a more fleet-wide impact.
2) More powerful engines increasing the sensor profile makes perfect sense and is an easy concept to grasp. I can't think of how different engines would interact with a ship's sensor package to reduce its effectiveness though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 05, 2015, 06:06:30 AM
Increased engine radiation messing up with sensor. It too is an easy concept for sci-fi, I suppose.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 05, 2015, 06:17:27 AM
I wonder if the penalties for Augmented Engines may be too much; I will need to see before passing judgment.  It seems strange that the sensor and profile penalties from Augmented Engines match (or comparable if not matching) those from Emergency Burn.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 05, 2015, 06:32:30 AM
With burn speed increase(which, I believe, is primary reason for most people to use it) nurfed to 1, new penalty sounds a bit too severe... Well, we'll see.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 05, 2015, 06:53:58 AM
Augmented engine penalty counts for the ship using it, emergency burn penalty for the whole fleet. So if you just buff your slowest ship with AE, the penalty is much smaller.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 05, 2015, 08:38:56 AM
I use Augmented Engines on everything not named Hyperion primarily for combat speed (which is more than Unstable Injector), though the burn bonus is nice too.  It would not be fun if Augmented Engines became the current Automated Repair - nice combat bonuses, but crippling campaign penalty to balance the campaign bonus.  Would prefer no campaign penalty/bonus to crippling campaign penalty to offset minor campaign bonus.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 05, 2015, 08:40:21 AM
i think it makes sense for increased engine exhaust to interfere with your own sensors, especially if the engines are pushed beyond what would ordinarily be considered safe for that ship-class. and maybe part of augmenting ship engines is also having to install stronger and larger containment fields that shield the ship's crew and more delicate hardware from dangerous emissions.

i agree that both sensor strength and profile being nerfed by 50% seems a bit much though (as far as we can speculate about these things before having actually played with sensors at all^^).


on that note, can we get some kind of hullmod that improves sensors? basically the opposite of the built-in civilian hullmod that reduces strength and increases profile, allowing us to sacrifice ordnance points for improved detection and/or stealth. could be an unlock from the Computer Systems skill or something like that.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 05, 2015, 08:47:10 AM
I do not mind some penalty on Augmented Engines, but it seems 50% for seeing and being seen may be too much.  It could be one of those where if I need to sneak into stations, I may need to toggle Augmented Engines on and off to maximize chance of success.  Toggle off if near market, toggle back on when docked (or fleeing from patrol).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 05, 2015, 08:52:00 AM
Well if the idea of augmented engines is to NOT have it on everything automatically, then this sounds perfect. Remember that its only the ships that have it get the penalty, so its still a viable way of boosting a few ships.

Also, it somewhat mitigates its own penalty. While you see/can see less, you are also faster so should be able to get away better from those ambushes/chase down the prey you do find.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 05, 2015, 09:03:03 AM
Augmented Engines should be an upgrade over Unstable Injector, like Integrated Targeting Unit is to Dedicated Targeting Core.  If Augmented Engines hurts too much, it becomes a power-up letdown or poison mushroom.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 05, 2015, 09:13:08 AM
Something I thought of:  If faction ties only check for major factions, and Pirates do not count as major faction, and if becoming friendly with one major faction makes the rest of the majors hate you, then it seems eventually, it may be a good idea to become friendly with pirates too, if only to gain access to military market and be able to buy rare weapons, once player graduates from killing pirates to killing the N-1 majors.  Trading with pirates should not be a problem in systems where the only other factions there are enemies.

P.S. Another benefit of friendly pirates is another place to repair your fleet.  That is better than buying rare weapons at Umbra.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 05, 2015, 09:55:28 AM
i'd actually prefer unlocked hullmods to be 'sidegrades' rather than straight upgrades to other hullmods. something you'd prefer in most cases (as you do have to spend skill points to get it) but not something that makes another hullmod completely obsolete.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 05, 2015, 10:03:55 AM
i'd actually prefer unlocked hullmods to be 'sidegrades' rather than straight upgrades to other hullmods. something you'd prefer in most cases (as you do have to spend skill points to get it) but not something that makes another hullmod completely obsolete.
Well, to be honest, Starsector isn't exactly strong with the sidegrade things.  Take the Buffalo Mk.IIs or the (D) variants, Dedicated Targeting Core, and even the Light Mortar - ships, weapons, and hullmods are made explicitly worse than other things in this game.  It's balanced akin to CS: GO - prices and availability are king here.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 05, 2015, 10:59:22 AM
Well, to be honest, Starsector isn't exactly strong with the sidegrade things.  Take the Buffalo Mk.IIs or the (D) variants, Dedicated Targeting Core, and even the Light Mortar - ships, weapons, and hullmods are made explicitly worse than other things in this game.  It's balanced akin to CS: GO - prices and availability are king here.
true, but hullmods don't have a price every time you install them and you only have to unlock them once for the whole fleet. there's no reason to ever use a strictly worse hullmod again after having unlocked its superior version. with ships and weapons, every new acquisition is affected by cost and rarity, even if you already have a large fleet of high-tech ships with elite loadouts.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 05, 2015, 11:07:59 AM
True, but the opportunity cost of unlocking those hullmods is part of the balance of skills. At present the +OP% from Tech skills is good, but not good enough for me without the hullmods.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Aeson on November 05, 2015, 12:09:13 PM
Another thing to remember about the hullmods is that there really aren't that many that are strictly superior to other hullmods. The Dedicated Targeting Core and Integrated Targeting Unit, and maybe Reinforced Bulkheads and Blast Doors are the only pairs of hullmods where one could be said to be strictly superior to the other that I can think of off the top of my head.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 05, 2015, 12:28:07 PM
And only a tiny fraction of the sector is now present in-game.

I wouldn't say that. The original target for the number of "core" worlds was somewhere around 20. As far as the number of star systems total, it's gone in a bit of a different direction - there's much more detail to individual star systems, which I think will work out better than having a ton of less-detailed systems. I'd say in terms of Sector area, we're something like 25% of the way there (though that's very much subject to change). As far as the number of markets, it's probably about halfway or thereabouts.


Why the nerf to the Atlas its already incredibly squishy did it get buffed in some other way?
Re: Atlas losing flight deck:  I thought Atlas had zilch for mounts because of flight deck.  Prometheus, the big fuel tanker, can equip enough weapons to defend itself from enemy frigates.  The Atlas cannot.  Also, Prometheus has drones to add to its firepower, but Atlas just has worthless flares.

It would be nice if the Atlas can be buffed some other way, like upgrading it small mounts to mediums or replacing the system with something more useful.

The Atlas just isn't a combat ship, and the flight deck doesn't make a lot of sense. I think I originally added it back in the missions-only days, when the Atlas's cargo capacity had no use? Either way, a flight deck on a dedicated superfreighter doesn't feel right right now. For the Prometheus, its armament and ship system reflects the volatility of its cargo.


Would be cool if that was an alternative/complementary way of resolving a "faction ties" investigation. "What, you think I like them Hegemony bastards just because I worked with them? Watch me!" **** gun*

You can do that, actually :)

Can you discover a commander's personality when you speak with them, or just via observation of their behavior? Also, I assume the fleet commander takes part in battle as a combat officer?

Can't at the moment, and yes, they do take part in battle.

What about asteroids? They seem like the less "hyperspacy" of the two.

...a special hyperspace terrain feature would be awesome at some point. Imagine suddenly opening rifts, or a maelstrom, or wormholes leading to the other side of the battle map ;D

Doesn't come up because there aren't any in hyperspace, but they'd show up on the battlefield if they were. It might be nice to have something special, yeah - just want to make sure it's a good fit. Don't want something super gimmicky or that confuses the AI, since combat in deep hyperspace is going to be fairly common.


Augmented Engines vs Emergency Burn
It works similarly for both sensor strength/range sensor profile, so let me just talk about strength/range. Each of your fleet's ships contrubtes to a total fleet sensor strength. This is where the penalty for Augmented Engines takes effect - an Onslaught with it would only contribute 2 points of sensor strength instead of 4.

The combined strength is then used to generate a sensor range, which is how far away you can detect another fleet. The range depends on the sensor profile of the other fleet. The important point here is that the range is not linear in terms of strength, but is rather a logarithmic function. So halving the sensor strength is only going to reduce the effective range by a much smaller fraction.

Emergency Burn, unlike Augmented Engines, applies to the sensor range. So that 50% sensor range penalty really does halve the range at which you'll detect stuff while EB is on.

So, in real terms, putting AE on an Onslaught isn't going to make a world of difference, especially not if it's part of a larger fleet.



Something I thought of:  If faction ties only check for major factions, and Pirates do not count as major faction, and if becoming friendly with one major faction makes the rest of the majors hate you, then it seems eventually, it may be a good idea to become friendly with pirates too, if only to gain access to military market and be able to buy rare weapons, once player graduates from killing pirates to killing the N-1 majors.  Trading with pirates should not be a problem in systems where the only other factions there are enemies.

P.S. Another benefit of friendly pirates is another place to repair your fleet.  That is better than buying rare weapons at Umbra.

The thing about pirates is while they don't care if you're friendly with somebody else, others *do* care that you're friendly with pirates. Except for independents.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 05, 2015, 01:52:51 PM
True, but the opportunity cost of unlocking those hullmods is part of the balance of skills. At present the +OP% from Tech skills is good, but not good enough for me without the hullmods.
right, and i do think unlocks should generally be more powerful because of that. i just prefer them to be better for most ships or playstyles, rather than an objective upgrade in every case. of course, getting that balance right can be pretty tricky. the Unstable Injector for example is technically a sidegrade, as it also increases acceleration. but in practise, there's not much reason to put it on any ship after you've unlocked Augmented Engines :/


Augmented Engines vs Emergency Burn
ooh, interesting. so even putting Augmented Engines on every ship in the fleet wouldn't actually half the range at which we can detect other fleets?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 05, 2015, 01:59:56 PM
Quote
I'd say in terms of Sector area, we're something like 25% of the way there (though that's very much subject to change). As far as the number of markets, it's probably about halfway or thereabouts.

As of 0.65 or 0.7?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 05, 2015, 02:08:37 PM
ooh, interesting. so even putting Augmented Engines on every ship in the fleet wouldn't actually half the range at which we can detect other fleets?

Right, exactly.

Quote
I'd say in terms of Sector area, we're something like 25% of the way there (though that's very much subject to change). As far as the number of markets, it's probably about halfway or thereabouts.

As of 0.65 or 0.7?

As of 0.7a. Although in terms of *area*, they're the same.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 05, 2015, 02:15:57 PM
As of 0.7a. Although in terms of *area*, they're the same.
Wait, does that mean you're shoving 4 times as many systems as there are in 0.7a with the same hyperspace map?  Is it going to get anywhere near as crowded as the Ironclads mod gets?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 05, 2015, 02:18:27 PM
Pretty sure he meant the 5 new systems in 0.7 will not be accomplished by any new area, while the end game might have an area four times as big as the current one.


You can do that, actually  :)

Awesome :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 05, 2015, 02:24:07 PM
Pretty sure he meant the 5 new systems in 0.7 will not be accomplished by any new area, while the end game might have an area four times as big as the current one.

Right, that's exactly what I meant. Disclaimer: totally subject to change etc. Determining the final Sector area is something that'll likely take some experimentation to get right.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Zapier on November 05, 2015, 03:24:59 PM
And only a tiny fraction of the sector is now present in-game.

I wouldn't say that. The original target for the number of "core" worlds was somewhere around 20. As far as the number of star systems total, it's gone in a bit of a different direction - there's much more detail to individual star systems, which I think will work out better than having a ton of less-detailed systems. I'd say in terms of Sector area, we're something like 25% of the way there (though that's very much subject to change). As far as the number of markets, it's probably about halfway or thereabouts.

So, I'm curious... the procedural generated parts are still planned, just with fewer but more fleshed out star systems rather than more numerous and less detailed ones? I ask since my first impression from that comment was that maybe you're planning for more of fully hand-made sector rather than a mixture of both which can still be good too.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 05, 2015, 03:33:48 PM
I don't want to get into the details too much (too liable to change and all that), but right now thinking in terms of randomly generating some systems.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on November 05, 2015, 03:46:03 PM
Please take it easy with procedural generation - its bland, boring and you soon see through it to the formula beneath. =/

I'd much, much rather have fewer but hand-made systems with unique and polished content.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 05, 2015, 03:49:30 PM
I believe he is holding off the random gen for stuff that would get too predictable for manual content, such as where to discover new tech, and etc.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Zapier on November 05, 2015, 03:59:22 PM
I don't want to get into the details too much (too liable to change and all that), but right now thinking in terms of randomly generating some systems.

Yeah I understand. I only asked since some procedural generation is still listed as part of the ongoing development so I was just more surprised if you found more enjoyment just working on more polished and fleshed out systems. Especially with the healthy modding community here already, there's a lot of additional content that the players themselves can make to fill out the sector more rather than an over reliance on only random generation. That's why I'm happy with a good blend of the two or a fully unique and well designed sector.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 05, 2015, 04:16:18 PM
Some random generation is good.  If the whole sector is hand-crafted, it would end up like Star Control 2 where those who replay know where everything is and can collect plot coupons and play in the most efficient manner.

Over-reliance of random generation is bad.  Savvy players can recognize patterns then devise a counter-strategy akin to no-random/all hand-crafted content.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 05, 2015, 04:23:13 PM
Please take it easy with procedural generation - its bland, boring and you soon see through it to the formula beneath. =/

I'd much, much rather have fewer but hand-made systems with unique and polished content.
There are many ways to do "randomly generated" content, some allowing to create interesting things. For example the generator could pick into a list of pre-made systems, mix and matching some of the planets around. Or there could be randomly selected all the planets to fill some hand-crafted "systems archetypes"...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Histidine on November 06, 2015, 03:23:10 AM
I'd say in terms of Sector area, we're something like 25% of the way there [...]
So, final Sector will be just 4x the area of the current one? I'd imagine it needs to be at least 25x to get a reasonably explore-able space.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 06, 2015, 03:42:44 AM
Well, that's still more or less 50 systems... 25x the 0.7 sector would be almost 300 which is way out of scope given the current performances.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 06, 2015, 04:05:24 AM
So, final Sector will be just 4x the area of the current one? I'd imagine it needs to be at least 25x to get a reasonably explore-able space.

Mh, I'd wait and see how different it feels with the new sensor system. Exploration always seems trivial if you see everything at once, while on the other hand even a relatively small area can make for great exploration if you don't have a good overview and there are many paths and secrets. Many old videogames make use of that.

Was there any information yet about how the limited sensor range will interact with static objects and the map? I think that will be crucial.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 06, 2015, 04:10:15 AM
Having the sins of a solar empire system would be nice, you can see the system you are in, and then you can see systems connected to that system, but they are greyed out because you have never been there, and once you explore that system, you can see the ones connected to that one, and so it keeps going.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cosmitz on November 06, 2015, 04:28:46 AM
People are pushing too much in either handcrafting everything or randomly generating everything. Most likely we'll keep a lot of the current systems but either the go-between or fringes will be padded with randomly generated systems. That's fine.

Either way, i trust Alex will come up with something great and playable. He's seen all the work and possibilities that went in on our end with randomly generated material.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Unfolder on November 06, 2015, 01:39:25 PM
Still no fighter/carrier modifications? Fuuuuh, literally everything has been changed at this point BUT fighters/carriers lol
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ratheden on November 06, 2015, 05:12:06 PM
I personally feel the fighters and carriers are already well balanced, not perfect but they have a nice balance.   No doubt many little tweaks here and there could make them better, one could add those tweaks over time, but why not save it for a time when your thinking nothing but fighters and carriers?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Intaka on November 06, 2015, 09:29:32 PM
Alex, is the current build stable? Seems like it would be easy to find yourself not seeing the forest for the trees after such a long period (9 months and counting) of internal development.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 06, 2015, 10:22:55 PM
Alex, is the current build stable? Seems like it would be easy to find yourself not seeing the forest for the trees after such a long period (9 months and counting) of internal development.

It seems pretty stable to me; hasn't crashed on me during playtesting, memory usage looks good, etc. I mean, I'd expect a fair amount of bugs to slip through due to the scope of the update (hence the all-but-inevitable post-release hotfix), but I feel good about where it's at. Is that what you're asking?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 06, 2015, 11:25:58 PM
No worries, he easily handles some years of internal development.  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ErKeL on November 07, 2015, 01:48:14 AM
It seems pretty stable to me; hasn't crashed on me during playtesting, memory usage looks good, etc. I mean, I'd expect a fair amount of bugs to slip through due to the scope of the update (hence the all-but-inevitable post-release hotfix), but I feel good about where it's at. Is that what you're asking?
Have to admit this has been something I've always been impressed with.
Every build I've played has been perfectly stable.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 07, 2015, 10:00:55 AM
It seems pretty stable to me; hasn't crashed on me during playtesting, memory usage looks good, etc. I mean, I'd expect a fair amount of bugs to slip through due to the scope of the update (hence the all-but-inevitable post-release hotfix), but I feel good about where it's at. Is that what you're asking?
Have to admit this has been something I've always been impressed with.
Every build I've played has been perfectly stable.

Thanks! I try to do my best. (But, it's just too big a project to test comprehensively, and being careful while coding, while helpful, still isn't a guarantee... so I just have to ask for your understanding for the things that do inevitably slip through.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 07, 2015, 10:22:45 AM
so I just have to ask for your understanding for the things that do inevitably slip through.
no! how dare you release alpha versions that aren't 100% perfect?! *shakes fist*

seriously though, i've spent so much time in this game already, and i can't recall ever encountering any (not mod-related) crashes or serious bugs. if i have noticed bugs, they were either hotfixed right away, or weren't significant enough in the first place for me to remember them now. and i usually do get annoyed pretty easily by little glitches, oversights, inconsistencies, etc in other games.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on November 07, 2015, 10:28:57 AM
Like everyone else said, I've never had any game breaking bugs happen when playing this game. Its even more stable than some full releases.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 07, 2015, 10:37:48 AM
The version before 0.6, I think it was 0.54, had memory leaks.  Sooner or later, the game would freeze.  Increasing memory only delayed the inevitable.  Memory leak was the main reason I did not downgrade back to 0.54 when I was displeased with the gameplay changes of 0.6 (and made worse by 0.62).  0.65 fixed most of the gameplay killjoys of early 0.6x.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ratheden on November 07, 2015, 10:44:33 AM
It seems pretty stable to me; hasn't crashed on me during playtesting, memory usage looks good, etc. I mean, I'd expect a fair amount of bugs to slip through due to the scope of the update (hence the all-but-inevitable post-release hotfix), but I feel good about where it's at. Is that what you're asking?
Have to admit this has been something I've always been impressed with.
Every build I've played has been perfectly stable.

Thanks! I try to do my best. (But, it's just too big a project to test comprehensively, and being careful while coding, while helpful, still isn't a guarantee... so I just have to ask for your understanding for the things that do inevitably slip through.)

While these fine people tip toe around the subject, Alex would you consider letting us test it for you?
We can help find bug, and helpfully report them:) 
And then sing praises of Alex and his programming skills and imagination? oh... wait, is this last part laying it on too thick? Well anyway, You need testers, and we good sir are here to help you Free of charge even.   


Setting aside that bad joke and my bad humor,  Keep at it Alex!. 

I have an old question that may have been answered already,
>Friendly fire incidents will cause a reputation drop depending on the severity
>Very serious incidents will drop reputation all the way to hostile

?Will computer controlled ships on my side be cause'n much friendly fire, or is this only based on my own dumb errors?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 07, 2015, 11:09:16 AM
While these fine people tip toe around the subject, Alex would you consider letting us test it for you?
We can help find bug, and helpfully report them:) 

Thank you, I appreciate the thought!

One issue there is that to get useful gameplay feedback, the gameplay has to be tuned to the point where that's possible, and that's usually the last steps before a release. And you know there'd be gameplay feedback regardless :) Likewise with already-known-but-not-yet-fixed bugs.

Development is kind of a rolling process where work on one feature overlaps with another, and most often there isn't a good point to cut a build and say the things in it are mostly done, never mind fun to play. Instead, feature X is halfway finished, feature Y is starting to be worked on, and there are still a few bugs to iron out from feature Z which was "finished" before X but was broken by it. And none of them are balanced in a "makes for fun gameplay" way.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that cutting a build at some random point is extremely unlikely to produce anything I'd dare call a game.

That aside, I'd say the period after a release and before a hotfix is exactly that, and it's really the first point where I feel comfortable making a release public. (I have thought about asking a few people to give it a whirl a bit early - probably modders, since that seems like it'd be a mutually beneficial arrangement - but haven't leaned strongly one way or another.)


I have an old question that may have been answered already,
>Friendly fire incidents will cause a reputation drop depending on the severity
>Very serious incidents will drop reputation all the way to hostile

?Will computer controlled ships on my side be cause'n much friendly fire, or is this only based on my own dumb errors?

They may, but it's pretty unlikely - no more so than friendly fire already is between your own ships - and seems just about impossible to get to the "hostile" level. I mean, I can imagine a modded weapon one-shotting an allied Onslaught by accident, but aside from things like that? I'd say it's functionally limited to your own mistakes.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 07, 2015, 11:57:23 AM
[...](I have thought about asking a few people to give it a whirl a bit early - probably modders, since that seems like it'd be a mutually beneficial arrangement - but haven't leaned strongly one way or another.)[...]
You know we would love that! ;)
Though I can see the argument against that: if the mods released their updated version just after your release, you would get much less feedback on the "vanilla" gameplay (and whatever we like to think, it's still the standard way to play the game), and much more mod related bug reports...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: kruqnut on November 07, 2015, 01:52:03 PM
stop talking to alex and let them get this release ready!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ratheden on November 07, 2015, 03:58:41 PM
stop talking to alex and let them get this release ready!
Probably a wize call... but is it the call the public will make?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 07, 2015, 04:27:17 PM
Definately no. ;D

The only crash I've ever encountered in SS was the result of a translation mod I was working on, due to me messing up with the tokens inside a string...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: kazi on November 07, 2015, 11:13:01 PM
@Alex - Speaking of testing, I was wondering how you go about doing the testing on your end. I've been doing a bunch of work on an Android game lately, and it never seems very clear on where/when/if to start using unit tests and whatnot. Admittedly, I'm still building the core bits of the game engine, but I'm having trouble finding any clear places to insert tests and QC stuff (especially for classes that handle user input and whatnot). What have you been doing in that regards? Figured I'd ask since your stuff has generally been pretty bug-free in my experience.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: nomadic_leader on November 08, 2015, 09:52:07 AM
Quote
Maintaining positive reputation with more than one major faction is not possible for very long; will eventually become hostile to all but one

This just seems like a bizarre design choice in someways, but perhaps I'm not really understanding. Now the only way to play the game is by becoming a partisan for one faction, whereas before one could become a partisan of one faction, play the middle, etc. How is this an improvement?  Shouldn't there be different ways to play starsector?

Anyway, our world is full of shady go-between characters and I imagine in a setting like StarSector the whole system would kind of rely on them to keep going. It's also silly to imagine that every faction is so ideologically similar that they all in identical fashion object to ties with the other factions.

And it's also an odd design that every faction is hostile equally to every other faction. It's like they're just five different colors of pegs on a Chinese Checkers board. Maybe I'm misreading it but these changes just seem to be moving the game into a less flexible, less open world playstyle, and it's another instance of every faction being the same.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 08, 2015, 10:30:37 AM
Now the only way to play the game is by becoming a partisan for one faction, whereas before one could become a partisan of one faction, play the middle, etc.

As I understand this you can still "play the middle", you just can't become everybody's darling anymore. I think it's a good change, since the current optimal playstile is to only fight pirates for a very long time in each playthrough, just so you don't lose the access to each faction's military market. That becomes repetitive after some time. Now the game has many more desirable playthrough options, one for each major faction and some middle ground.

I also hope that the faction will differ in more than text, ships and color, like their long term goals and fleet strategies, but this seems like a fundamental gameplay mechanism they should share. Besides, all the not-major factions(Pathers, Pirates ,Indis so far) already differ here.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 08, 2015, 10:40:46 AM
Now the only way to play the game is by becoming a partisan for one faction, whereas before one could become a partisan of one faction, play the middle, etc.

As I understand this you can still "play the middle", you just can't become everybody's darling anymore. I think it's a good change, since the current optimal playstile is to only fight pirates for a very long time in each playthrough, just so you don't lose the access to each faction's military market. That becomes repetitive after some time. Now the game has many more desirable playthrough options, one for each major faction and some middle ground.

I also hope that the faction will differ in more than text, ships and color, like their long term goals and fleet strategies, but this seems like a fundamental gameplay mechanism they should share. Besides, all the not-major factions(Pathers, Pirates ,Indis so far) already differ here.

I'm hoping the TTachs got some better markets...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 08, 2015, 10:43:46 AM
I hope one day, one of the major factions is the one I build from the ground up.

I also hope that the faction will differ in more than text, ships and color, like their long term goals and fleet strategies, but this seems like a fundamental gameplay mechanism they should share. Besides, all the not-major factions(Pathers, Pirates ,Indis so far) already differ here.
So far, the factions feel like Tri-Tachyon or Hegemony, with the rest of the majors being Hegemony #2 and #3.  Also, all military markets stocking multiple Hammerheads is really annoying.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 08, 2015, 10:51:47 AM
@nomadic_leader: (... never mind, ninja'ed by Gothars. Pretty much everything I was going to say.)


@Alex - Speaking of testing, I was wondering how you go about doing the testing on your end. I've been doing a bunch of work on an Android game lately, and it never seems very clear on where/when/if to start using unit tests and whatnot. Admittedly, I'm still building the core bits of the game engine, but I'm having trouble finding any clear places to insert tests and QC stuff (especially for classes that handle user input and whatnot). What have you been doing in that regards? Figured I'd ask since your stuff has generally been pretty bug-free in my experience.

Well... in my experience, unit tests haven't been useful for much of anything. If you're working on a math or string library, especially with multiple committers? Sure, unit tests would be *great*. Something more real-world, though? It just gets a lot less practical. Also, as you point out, there are issues when you start dealing with user input. Still could be worked with using mock objects and such, but to me the extra effort, extra complexity, and saddling the code with stuff that makes it harder to change just aren't remotely worth it.

Personally, I just try to minimize the opportunity for bugs to creep in (i.e. don't do anything fancy, put in null checks where you don't think you need them, that sort of thing), and test the code at the time of writing it. And never assume that the simplest change you made is just going to work. The number of times I thought it would, tested anyway, and then found a bug are too many to count. I think it's more of a mindset thing than anything.

Of course, bugs still do creep in. But they do with unit tests, too. In the end, I think it's finding something that works for you. Even if it involves unit tests; I won't judge :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: kruqnut on November 08, 2015, 11:02:34 AM
kinda off topic but ive been jazzed about the officers for a while. I'm sure they're implimented in a simpler way but I loved the way they handles Generals from Rome: Total War 1. It was tons of fun after you were in a good ways into a campaign to look at the family tree and discover the "personality" each general had developed as a course of his actions. I just hope the officers can build rank and efficency etc. and I NEED this release alex :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 08, 2015, 11:11:49 AM
kinda off topic but ive been jazzed about the officers for a while. I'm sure they're implimented in a simpler way but I loved the way they handles Generals from Rome: Total War 1. It was tons of fun after you were in a good ways into a campaign to look at the family tree and discover the "personality" each general had developed as a course of his actions. I just hope the officers can build rank and efficency etc. and I NEED this release alex :P

That was a big topic after the officer blog post. Short answer: Maybe some day.

In lieu of detailed replies to everyone saying similar things, I'll just say instead that I totally get the appeal of adding something unique to each officer :)

It's less clear exactly what shape that will need to take, though, so I think it makes sense to leave it be for the moment, implement a bunch of other features that are more impactful for the time spent, and perhaps get back around to it either when it's a good opportunity to work it in, or when it is the most impactful thing to work on.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 08, 2015, 12:18:47 PM
Well... in my experience, unit tests haven't been useful for much of anything. If you're working on a math or string library, especially with multiple committers? Sure, unit tests would be *great*. Something more real-world, though? It just gets a lot less practical. Also, as you point out, there are issues when you start dealing with user input. Still could be worked with using mock objects and such, but to me the extra effort, extra complexity, and saddling the code with stuff that makes it harder to change just aren't remotely worth it.

Personally, I just try to minimize the opportunity for bugs to creep in (i.e. don't do anything fancy, put in null checks where you don't think you need them, that sort of thing), and test the code at the time of writing it. And never assume that the simplest change you made is just going to work. The number of times I thought it would, tested anyway, and then found a bug are too many to count. I think it's more of a mindset thing than anything.

Of course, bugs still do creep in. But they do with unit tests, too. In the end, I think it's finding something that works for you. Even if it involves unit tests; I won't judge :)

Unit tests are great for components of the game that you don't want to change/regress but expect to break often.  For a networked game, a determinism test would be very useful, for example.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 08, 2015, 01:50:06 PM
Unit tests are great for components of the game that you don't want to change/regress but expect to break often.  For a networked game, a determinism test would be very useful, for example.

Hmm. Given that definition, this sounds more like functional testing rather than unit testing. I mean, you're not testing the component at that point - it's not changing, so why would it break - but the things that are feeding into it. And you'd have to keep updating the test to make sure it covers new things that aren't part of that component but factor in anyway (e.g. a new weapon, etc). So that's adding extra dev costs to a lot of things. Is it worth it? Maybe, maybe not. I guess, as usual, it just depends.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: kazi on November 08, 2015, 02:27:50 PM
Interesting. I was coming to a similar conclusion on the topic of unit tests. The only time I've ever really found a use for them was when writing a data analysis package in R. I was just starting to feel bad about not using them for other stuff because I've seen a lot of material that's really pushing them.

On the topic of the actual update, I like that you have to pick a faction and stick with it now. I always thought it was dumb that players could be friends with everyone all the time and just hunt pirates. I made my mod faction hostile to everyone else so people would have to actually choose a side for once. Good to see this is happening in the base game too. The whole "pirate hunter" meta got really old quickly, as you'd only end up fighting a small fraction of the game's ships (and pirate fleets always seemed to be straight up smaller/easier, which is why people started complaining that the endgame was too easy).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 08, 2015, 02:33:39 PM
Unit tests are great for components of the game that you don't want to change/regress but expect to break often.  For a networked game, a determinism test would be very useful, for example.

Hmm. Given that definition, this sounds more like functional testing rather than unit testing. I mean, you're not testing the component at that point - it's not changing, so why would it break - but the things that are feeding into it. And you'd have to keep updating the test to make sure it covers new things that aren't part of that component but factor in anyway (e.g. a new weapon, etc). So that's adding extra dev costs to a lot of things. Is it worth it? Maybe, maybe not. I guess, as usual, it just depends.

My workplace may have a very... odd use of testing terminology.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on November 08, 2015, 03:49:55 PM
Quote
Atlas: removed flight deck
I hope it got a buff to make up for that; it was one of its few charms :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ratheden on November 08, 2015, 09:34:42 PM
Quote
Atlas: removed flight deck
I hope it got a buff to make up for that; it was one of its few charms :)
True...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 08, 2015, 10:53:04 PM
My workplace may have a very... odd use of testing terminology.

Fair enough :) Don't want to get hung up on semantics, anyway - automated tests are automated tests, pretty much.


Quote
Atlas: removed flight deck
I hope it got a buff to make up for that; it was one of its few charms :)

Well, I suppose it did in the burn level department, along with all other capitals :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 09, 2015, 10:13:51 AM
I was just starting to feel bad about not using them for other stuff because I've seen a lot of material that's really pushing them.

(It's just one of those things where a particular methodology is useful in a particular setting, and then lots of people try to push it for everything because either they make money off it - books, seminars, etc - or they think it's a magic bullet that'll solve their dev problems. Happens all the time; "agile" is another one that's been in vogue in the last while... anyway, point is, if you see any particular approach to coding being pushed, it doesn't mean much.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on November 09, 2015, 10:28:26 AM
Yeah I'll second that in a huge way.

Tools, processes and methodologies are all awesome in their place. Just don't expect them to save you. Not that I am a long time developer by any means. Long enough, though.  :p
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 09, 2015, 10:51:32 AM
Reminds me of flowcharts back in the day.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: kazi on November 09, 2015, 01:48:01 PM
Yup, been seeing that "Agile" word a lot.  :P

Completely different field, but a funny read nonetheless: http://pairedends.com (http://pairedends.com) (a satirical website about one of the biggest circle-jerks in genomics right now). Also, watch the video.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: kruqnut on November 09, 2015, 02:46:05 PM
You should develop one of these new games with kickstarter like Star Citizen, where you spend all your effort tlaking about how great your game is without actually developing anything, then people just give u money!

I follow a game called camelot unchained and im starting to think it's just a scheme because it doesn't seem that far in development and all the lead designer does is talk about stupid *** like "wow look at this new splash art!"
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Bribe Guntails on November 09, 2015, 06:52:29 PM
On the completely different subject of Market Conditions: does the idea of 'the Player or some other in-game force capable of influencing the addition or removal of such conditions' sound consistent within the game?

On some of my wealthy saves I've attempted to significantly influence worlds such as Asharu in the Corvus system in order to help stabilize the market. Should the player have the power to have any influence on such powerful conditions?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xeroshiva1029 on November 10, 2015, 01:54:42 PM
Take your time alex, F4 and SW:BF are here/comming and then theres ghost recon wildlands and then theres ass. creed syndicate and the division.. and legacy of the void maybe.
u do you boo boo.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 10, 2015, 04:15:42 PM
Take your time alex, F4 and SW:BF are here/comming and then theres ghost recon wildlands and then theres ass. creed syndicate and the division.. and legacy of the void maybe.
u do you boo boo.
Yeah he is most likely playing in the wasteland right now
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 10, 2015, 04:29:12 PM
Take your time alex, F4 and SW:BF are here/comming and then theres ghost recon wildlands and then theres ass. creed syndicate and the division.. and legacy of the void maybe.
u do you boo boo.
Yeah he is most likely playing in the wasteland right now

If it's not the irradiated wastelands of Daedaleon, I don't want to know!

Speaking of which, I think I just spotted a text bug! ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 10, 2015, 07:27:58 PM
11th hour bug fixes, huh Alex?

I sense it...the update will arrive VERY SOON.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 10, 2015, 07:31:52 PM
11th hour bug fixes, huh Alex?

I sense it...the update will arrive VERY SOON.

I sense a great disturbance in the force, as if a etc etc etc etc
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on November 10, 2015, 07:59:44 PM
I check the site like 10 times a day.

Alex pls
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Bribe Guntails on November 11, 2015, 12:14:11 AM
[FLUX levels intensify]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheDTYP on November 11, 2015, 03:37:15 AM
SOON TM!!!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 11, 2015, 03:57:03 AM
I can't even imagine the comments per minute when the update actually hits.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Spoorthuzad on November 11, 2015, 04:54:02 AM
I can't even imagine the comments per minute when the update actually hits.
Ehh zero? Because everyone is playing the update :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 11, 2015, 05:59:46 AM
You would be surprised on the comments a mod or game can get before it is actually played.  If voting is supported, there may be more votes than downloads.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: CopperCoyote on November 11, 2015, 08:28:15 AM
How is the radio chatter implemented? is it one sound file that is played, or is it several sounds played together depending on the market?

I mostly want to know because my mashed potato of an old computer gets crushed by lots of sounds in java.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 11, 2015, 10:38:18 AM
How is the radio chatter implemented? is it one sound file that is played, or is it several sounds played together depending on the market?

I mostly want to know because my mashed potato of an old computer gets crushed by lots of sounds in java.
And I hope there is a way to disable/ turn down the frequency of it (for better performance)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 11, 2015, 11:39:08 AM
How is the radio chatter implemented? is it one sound file that is played, or is it several sounds played together depending on the market?

I mostly want to know because my mashed potato of an old computer gets crushed by lots of sounds in java.

(I have a hard time blaming this on Java - more likely it's just OpenAL playback that your system is struggling with.)

Regardless, there are a couple of tracks - 3 currently - but it's hard to see it being a significant consideration in the grand scheme of things. You get way, way more sounds playing at the same time in many other situations.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 11, 2015, 12:43:04 PM
@Alex
How did that 50 MB of UI saving bug turn out?  I'm curious as to how that actually happened.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 11, 2015, 12:54:58 PM
Ahh, Java reasons. An anonymous class being saved - as part of an intel message - had an implicit reference to an interaction dialog. To clarify somewhat, after completing a procurement mission, you get a reputation gain. That gain was displayed in the dialog, but performed via the immediate delivery of an intel message, so you'd both have the gain displayed in the dialog, but also in an intel-tab message that notifies you of completing the mission. Basically, just needed to clear out the "on message delivery" payload after delivering it. Hope that makes some sort of sense; it wasn't the most straightforward thing.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 11, 2015, 01:00:52 PM
It's difficult to understand (although I get the basic gist of it) - nice to know we've got a dev who understands it fully, though. :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 11, 2015, 01:19:44 PM
Not fully enough to avoid making the mistake in the first place, apparently :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: gruberscomplete on November 11, 2015, 02:43:16 PM
So you are NOT competing with Fallout 4?

Thought you were gonna release on the 10th?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 11, 2015, 05:19:59 PM
So you are NOT competing with Fallout 4?

Thought you were gonna release on the 10th?

Wouldn't be much of a contest; FO4's engine sucks :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on November 11, 2015, 08:23:04 PM
As long as it doesn't release on the 17th, because I will not be able to tear myself away from Battlefront.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 11, 2015, 08:33:10 PM
As long as it doesn't release on the 17th, because I will not be able to tear myself away from Battlefront.
And here I'm hoping for a birthday present from Alex
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: sirboomalot on November 11, 2015, 10:10:27 PM
It could make for a nice christmas present, I bet :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on November 11, 2015, 10:44:22 PM
It could make for a nice christmas present, I bet :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n78BpvaX9N8&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheDTYP on November 11, 2015, 11:23:22 PM
It could make for a nice christmas present, I bet :P

Oh GOD no! Don't listen to him, Alex!!! Christmas is too far away!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Baqar79 on November 12, 2015, 01:15:45 AM
I just looked at my post history, from January 1st to 6th I went crazy with posts; then silence!

Spent most of today trying to do my homework (Introduction to computer science via edx), but since i'm having trouble with a particular piece of code, I figured distracting myself with everything but the necessary tasks in front of me made more sense.  ;)

To say i'm looking forward to an update is an understatement.  When I first bought the game back in March 2012, I didn't really think much of it.  I updated later on to 0.6.2a, but it did not grab my attention.  Then the 0.6.5.1a release came out, so I pushed myself to give it a fair try and found myself clearing a space on the shelf right next to my all time favourite space games (Master Of Orion 2 and Space Rangers 2). 

I'm going to have to catch up on my homework first so that I can feel entitled to a little time with the next release of this game  :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 12, 2015, 10:10:17 AM
I have no working computer right now and if the update arrives before the replacement part, I cannot even imagine how excruciating that will be. Alex will hear my screams of anguish... Wherever in the world he is.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 12, 2015, 10:18:29 AM
It could make for a nice christmas present, I bet :P

Oh GOD no! Don't listen to him, Alex!!! Christmas is too far away!

Yeah, no way. Valentine's Day seems more appropriate anyway, doesn't it? (Kidding, kidding.)

To say i'm looking forward to an update is an understatement.  When I first bought the game back in March 2012, I didn't really think much of it.  I updated later on to 0.6.2a, but it did not grab my attention.  Then the 0.6.5.1a release came out, so I pushed myself to give it a fair try and found myself clearing a space on the shelf right next to my all time favourite space games (Master Of Orion 2 and Space Rangers 2).

Thanks for sharing! Glad it's moving in the right direction for you :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xeroshiva1029 on November 12, 2015, 05:29:28 PM
i'm just saying.. i played game dev tycoon on my phone and another version from steam.. and i even made some C++ stuff for league of legends myself..  solo projects aint the way to go..

steam has millions of users willing to buy anything, all you need is 1 review. i could name a dozen people on youtube that do a LETS PLAY of games i didnt even know existed. and i follow dudes on twitch that hop from 1 game to another and give reviews before during and after and its nice to see the reviews change (for the better) after they play it compaired to before.

you need $, we need content and the MODers need new stuff to break.

hoist the colors.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 12, 2015, 05:56:56 PM
He will...later, when the game is more 'ready' for it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 12, 2015, 07:18:12 PM
I agree Starsector as it is now is not ready for Steam.  It does not take long to reach endgame, and there is no win (or lose) condition.  Also, people will need to install 64-bit Java to play more than a few mods.  If Starsector needs mods to be good for more than a few games, it will not last long.

The masses will be attracted by a shiny new game for a month or two, then move on to more fresh meat... unless the game is superb enough to be replayed over and over again.  Starsector, good as it is, is not at that level yet.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: gruberscomplete on November 13, 2015, 06:17:23 PM
It could make for a nice christmas present, I bet :P

Oh GOD no! Don't listen to him, Alex!!! Christmas is too far away!

Yeah, no way. Valentine's Day seems more appropriate anyway, doesn't it? (Kidding, kidding.)


Great... December/January release date.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 13, 2015, 06:31:26 PM
Great... December/January release date.
Well, he *did* say 11th hour bug fixes a couple of days ago with that 50 MB of US saving bug - so it has to be close to release if he says that.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ranakastrasz on November 13, 2015, 08:08:12 PM
Quote
Safety Overrides: now also extends overload duration by 50%
Isn't that a skill effect that applies to the player? A disadvantage for something like that would really make more sense as a toggle of some kind.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 13, 2015, 08:09:20 PM
Quote
Safety Overrides: now also extends overload duration by 50%
Isn't that a skill effect that applies to the player? A disadvantage for something like that would really make more sense as a toggle of some kind.

I'm not sure what you mean; could you clarify?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 13, 2015, 08:12:21 PM
Quote
Safety Overrides: now also extends overload duration by 50%
Isn't that a skill effect that applies to the player? A disadvantage for something like that would really make more sense as a toggle of some kind.

I'm not sure what you mean; could you clarify?
I think he mixed up the skill called Safety Overrides with new hull mod and thinks that the skill will now cause you to have 50% longer overloads
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 13, 2015, 08:15:17 PM
Ahhhh, right, there's a perk called "Safety Override". Yeah, need to rename that, that's super confusing.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on November 13, 2015, 08:44:45 PM
I agree Starsector as it is now is not ready for Steam.  It does not take long to reach endgame, and there is no win (or lose) condition.  Also, people will need to install 64-bit Java to play more than a few mods.  If Starsector needs mods to be good for more than a few games, it will not last long.

The masses will be attracted by a shiny new game for a month or two, then move on to more fresh meat... unless the game is superb enough to be replayed over and over again.  Starsector, good as it is, is not at that level yet.


Megas is absolutely right. Need replayability in both vanilla and what mods can add. Thats is beyond just faction and ships, thats like extra story or campaign functionality.

In fallout 4 all of the new "content" are all baisically mods at one point.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 13, 2015, 09:07:11 PM
Hey, no argument from me.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 14, 2015, 01:03:03 AM
Ahhhh, right, there's a perk called "Safety Override". Yeah, need to rename that, that's super confusing.

Rename it to Inviolability Abrogation
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 14, 2015, 02:41:00 AM
Limiter Removal.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on November 14, 2015, 04:38:38 AM
It's quite fun to struggle your way to the top, and depending on your playstyle it can also take quite a while. So I think (re)playability is quite decent already. But if you're looking for inspiration, I can only repeat myself and suggest: Mount & Blade: Warband. Crusader Kings 2. Nexerelin and Uomoz's Corvus.

Having 'system lords' struggle for dominance instead of faceless factions. Being able to interact with them, to forge treaties and do missions. Being able to lay siege to and take control of stations. Being able to start your own faction and have everybody else hate you for it.

Industry isn't in yet, so I'm gonna hold my tongue on that one and see what you come up with. ;)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 14, 2015, 07:40:51 AM
Safety Override perk merely speeds up venting?  Call it something that is self-explanatory, like... Efficient Heat Pump Accelerated Flux Ejector.  (Cannot use Shunt because that is the Monitor's builtin hullmod.)

Quick question:  Will boarding be an option if player already has max (25) ships in his fleet?  Just thinking that if player has max ships, boarding should be skipped altogether or else problems ensue (player exceeds cap, marines mysteriously auto-fail, or something).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 14, 2015, 10:40:26 AM
It's quite fun to struggle your way to the top, and depending on your playstyle it can also take quite a while. So I think (re)playability is quite decent already. But if you're looking for inspiration, I can only repeat myself and suggest: Mount & Blade: Warband. Crusader Kings 2. Nexerelin and Uomoz's Corvus.

Having 'system lords' struggle for dominance instead of faceless factions. Being able to interact with them, to forge treaties and do missions. Being able to lay siege to and take control of stations. Being able to start your own faction and have everybody else hate you for it.

Industry isn't in yet, so I'm gonna hold my tongue on that one and see what you come up with. ;)

I think it's just one of those things where having higher-level goals (i.e. something to do with your fleet that isn't just for the purpose of getting a bigger fleet) will go a really, really long way. Can't wait to work on that, actually.

Quick question:  Will boarding be an option if player already has max (25) ships in his fleet?  Just thinking that if player has max ships, boarding should be skipped altogether or else problems ensue (player exceeds cap, marines mysteriously auto-fail, or something).

Right, it is indeed skipped altogether.


(Re: perk - renamed it to "Dedicated Conduits".)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 14, 2015, 12:34:16 PM
[...] Can't wait to work on that, actually. [...]
Soontm?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Debido on November 14, 2015, 03:48:38 PM
Hey Alex, are there were mods that you wish you could make a part of the base game, and which ones would they be? Any factions or creative contributions that you would put in if you had the time and budget?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: gruberscomplete on November 15, 2015, 03:48:41 PM
So... release on Tuesday? That is a really good day for me LOL.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: David on November 15, 2015, 04:09:05 PM
Hey Alex, are there were mods that you wish you could make a part of the base game, and which ones would they be? Any factions or creative contributions that you would put in if you had the time and budget?

This has been asked before, here's my reply, and Alex's is right after it (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7885.msg136419#msg136419). (Short answer: no.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 15, 2015, 04:19:41 PM
I think he meant that, supposing the world was an anarchist paradise, which mod content would Alex have liked to include with the game, befitting of his personal preferences?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 15, 2015, 04:30:51 PM
That doesn't seem like a good thing to ask, let alone answer. You can either say something meaningless like "oh, I like them all" or you can single out your favorite and breed resentment in many of the spurned mod authors. Same reason why I dont think an official recommended mod list would be healthy at this point.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 15, 2015, 04:51:15 PM
Also, I think my reply in that thread (thanks David for tracking that down, btw!) largely covers it, even in the "anarchist paradise" interpretation of the question.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Achataeon on November 15, 2015, 05:15:43 PM
What if we actually take breather and actually stop from bothering Alex with our posts. Surely Alex has better things to do than reading our posts. (i just really really really want that update in the soonesttm possible moment)

My patience for this new update is starting to thin down
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 16, 2015, 12:30:24 AM
I will close the thread for now :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 17, 2015, 12:10:44 PM
Opening it back up because, you know. Very soon(tm).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 17, 2015, 12:13:06 PM
The Twitter post beat this by a couple of minutes.  I've been like this for that time:

(http://cdnl.complex.com/assets/CHANNEL_IMAGES/SNEAKERS/2013/12/content/1387815301_mexicansoccercoach2.gif)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 17, 2015, 12:41:33 PM
F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5
(https://cdn2.scratch.mit.edu/get_image/gallery/882682_170x100.png?v=1428155165.0)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 17, 2015, 12:42:58 PM
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/77TO52n.gif)
[close]

I chose the best possible time to get sick and stay home all day, apparently!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on November 17, 2015, 12:44:26 PM
Guys stop being dramatic and just subscribe to the newsletter (ignore me also frantically F5ing).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on November 17, 2015, 12:46:59 PM
(http://i47.tinypic.com/2qsapfa.jpg)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 17, 2015, 12:59:08 PM
(I can't just leave you guys hanging! As much as I like all the F5ing, it's not going to be today; still need to do a bit more testing with the RC.)

To try to make up for that, updated patch notes with the last bit of changes :)



Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 17, 2015, 12:59:59 PM
Nice  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheDTYP on November 17, 2015, 01:06:01 PM
*sigh* it's just not the same :(
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 17, 2015, 01:11:38 PM
Safety Override blocks venting?  Only passive dissipation is allowed?  (If so, that makes the now named Dedicated Conduits perk useless for that ship.)

Range nerf most certainly guts Safety Override's usefulness at kiting, which is understandable.  (I would have used Safety Override just to make my ships faster, or rather make up for speed lost now that Helmsmanship 5 no longers makes the player faster.)

Is the difficulty setting permanent, instead of determining starting assets?  (If so, I will play Normal.  I may be a munchkin, but I want to play fair.)

Nice on the heads-up that release is not today.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 17, 2015, 01:19:15 PM
Opening it back up because, you know. Very soon(tm).
YEEEEEEEESSSSSSSS
it's not going to be today; still need to do a bit more testing with the RC.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Quote
To try to make up for that, updated patch notes with the last bit of changes :)
YEEEEEEEESSSSSSSS

*dies of rollercoaster*
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 17, 2015, 01:22:11 PM
Quote
Damage taken is set to "full" by default

(http://i.imgur.com/WPreNsr.gif)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Spoorthuzad on November 17, 2015, 01:23:10 PM
*squeek* We are so close to the update!

Changes as of November 17, 2015

Campaign

  • Increased salvage from combat by 50%
  • Removed easy/normal start choice from new game creation; added two difficulty choices:
  • Normal
  • Easy
  • 50% more salvage (supplies, credits, etc)



Is the increased salvage in campaign only for easy mode or is it a change globally in the game and easy mode gives an additional 50% salvage boost?
(this might be a confusing sentence, sorry)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Namelessjake on November 17, 2015, 01:32:24 PM
*squeek* We are so close to the update!

All aboard the Hype Train!!!!!! Choo Choo!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 17, 2015, 01:37:44 PM

Is the increased salvage in campaign only for easy mode or is it a change globally in the game and easy mode gives an additional 50% salvage boost?

I read it as double current salvage in normal mode and triple current salvage in easy mode.


I wonder why salvage is increased at all though, wasn't the idea to make random battles without in-game-reason (bounty, mission, asset defense) unprofitable?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 17, 2015, 01:40:08 PM
does increased salvage also mean looting more weapons?

Safety Override blocks venting?  Only passive dissipation is allowed?  (If so, that makes the now named Dedicated Conduits perk useless for that ship.)
the 10 point perk (Advanced Routing Algorithms) should be VERY strong with it, though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 17, 2015, 01:40:31 PM
@ Gothars:  Probably because you cannot get paid from any and every faction, if you become friends with one, as we can in 0.65?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 17, 2015, 02:06:00 PM
Range nerf most certainly guts Safety Override's usefulness at kiting, which is understandable.  (I would have used Safety Override just to make my ships faster, or rather make up for speed lost now that Helmsmanship 5 no longers makes the player faster.)

Yeah, that's pretty much the reason. The idea is to open up a more aggressive style, but without the range nerf, I'd found myself still gravitating to long-range loadouts and using the speed for kiting, despite the peak time reduction.


Is the difficulty setting permanent, instead of determining starting assets?  (If so, I will play Normal.  I may be a munchkin, but I want to play fair.)

It's permanent. More for easing in new players/providing a bit more of a relaxed experience.


Is the increased salvage in campaign only for easy mode or is it a change globally in the game and easy mode gives an additional 50% salvage boost?
(this might be a confusing sentence, sorry)

It's 50% across the board, and then 50% (multiplicative) on top of that for "easy".

So if you got 20 supply in 0.65, you'd get 30 in 0.7, and 45 in 0.7 easy.


does increased salvage also mean looting more weapons?

No, just credits/supplies/heavy equipment/metals.


I wonder why salvage is increased at all though, wasn't the idea to make random battles without in-game-reason (bounty, mission, asset defense) unprofitable?

With enemy fleets having officers, at least in my testing, it took more ships - and thus cost more - to beat the higher-end fleets. When the enemy has 10 level 20 officers, things get pretty rough, even if you do too. So this is pretty much driven by "what feels sustainable for a high-end fleet taking on appropriate challenges".

It's not supposed to be entirely unprofitable, btw - just not a great way of making money. At endgame, though, there's not much else if you're going the combat route and facing faction fleets.

@ Gothars:  Probably because you cannot get paid from any and every faction, if you become friends with one, as we can in 0.65?

Yeah, that contributes too.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 17, 2015, 02:13:06 PM
Removing venting entirely is brutal, going to have to see how that feels.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 17, 2015, 02:22:42 PM
Removing venting entirely is brutal, going to have to see how that feels.

Keep in mind that the normal dissipation rate is equivalent to venting speed w/o SO. It's like you're always venting.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 17, 2015, 02:25:39 PM
No, just credits/supplies/heavy equipment/metals.
kk. no increased fuel either?

Removing venting entirely is brutal, going to have to see how that feels.
Keep in mind that the normal dissipation rate is equivalent to venting speed w/o SO. It's like you're always venting.
will be interesting to see how that works for BRDY.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 17, 2015, 02:28:15 PM
Removing venting entirely is brutal, going to have to see how that feels.

Keep in mind that the normal dissipation rate is equivalent to venting speed w/o SO. It's like you're always venting.

O_O

Quote
will be interesting to see how that works for BRDY.

Brdy ships directly modify the vent rate, which is irrelevant here, so it won't be as good as it seems. Probably still a valid tradeoff.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 17, 2015, 02:28:36 PM
Is the damage setting still available or is it gone? Also, are we limited to nine officers (because we the player count as one) or ten
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 17, 2015, 02:33:56 PM
Oh, right, fuel too. Forgot to list that.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 17, 2015, 02:46:01 PM
Brdy ships directly modify the vent rate, which is irrelevant here, so it won't be as good as it seems. Probably still a valid tradeoff.
yeah, that's what i meant. on the one hand, it makes the BR Flux Core useless, and many BR ships already have a low CR timer. but on the other hand, a highly aggressive playstyle with even better mobility sounds like a good fit. should make for an interesting choice, i think.

Oh, right, fuel too. Forgot to list that.
ok, ty :]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 17, 2015, 02:55:08 PM
Removing venting entirely is brutal, going to have to see how that feels.

Keep in mind that the normal dissipation rate is equivalent to venting speed w/o SO. It's like you're always venting.
Venting speed with or without Dedicated Conduits?

(Normal vent speed is not fast enough for me, which is why I get Power Grid Modulation 5/Dedicated Conduits perk as soon as I can... after I reach Technology 7 for the two most powerful hullmods - Augmented Engines and ITU.)

P.S.  Also, because of how brutally expensive Safety Override is, I planned on sacking vents to get the OP needed for Safety Override.  (Max vents is usually a no-brainer for most ships.)  But now that venting is not possible, I may want to keep max vents... maybe.  If I cannot fit Safety Override in, I probably will not bother with it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 17, 2015, 02:59:46 PM
Without DC. Just mean that regular venting: 2x dissipation; SO: 2x dissipation. With DC it's 3x. Which is probably a bit much, honestly, but I'll look at that later.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 17, 2015, 03:02:01 PM
P.S.  Also, because of how brutally expensive Safety Override is, I planned on sacking vents to get the OP needed for Safety Override.  (Max vents is usually a no-brainer for most ships.)  But now that venting is not possible, I may want to keep max vents... maybe.  If I cannot fit Safety Override in, I probably will not bother with it.

Well, you get 2x the benefit from vents with SO, so sacking vents to get it might be counter-productive.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 17, 2015, 03:11:14 PM
Quote
Well, you get 2x the benefit from vents with SO, so sacking vents to get it might be counter-productive.
Agreed, but Safety Override costing so much OP to use, I foresee the need to give up something to squeeze it in.  In my case, taking away from vents will probably be the least painful option (I also planned on getting Safety Override, combined with additional faster venting options, to vent spam very hungry flux hogs like crazy) - I refuse to part with Augmented Engines and ITU.  I suppose Resistant Flux Conduits gets the axe since I use it mostly for faster vent speed, but that alone will not be enough.  (I put Resistant Flux Conduits on most of my ships too.)  I doubt I want to downgrade weapons too (unless I get it solely for range), though I usually put missiles on the chopping block if squeezed for OP (limited ammo is not good when OP is scarce).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 17, 2015, 03:51:46 PM
Yeah, I can see dropping vents if you want SO as a "speed boost at the cost of peak time" option, rather than a dissipation boost. But it's a lot of dissipation to give up, and Augmented Engines + SO may well be overkill, while ITU is kind of pointless with SO. In any case, I'm excited to see how this turns out :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 17, 2015, 04:01:47 PM
Added current "suspicion level" to black market tooltip

"All" button in deployment dialog will now select as many ships as possible for deployment when there aren't enough points to select all of them, instead of being disabled

Mah babies ;D


"Trade disrupted" and "price update" reports only show up in the campaign-level message list if they're from the same system.

You mean the same system you are currently in? Or when the messages come together?

If the first one, what about hyperspace?

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 17, 2015, 04:10:39 PM
"Trade disrupted" and "price update" reports only show up in the campaign-level message list if they're from the same system.

You mean the same system you are currently in? Or when the messages come together?

If the first one, what about hyperspace?

The system you're in, and they don't when in hyperspace. The idea is the main contribution of these messages is updates to the price map; if you show all of them it gets really spammy.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: gruberscomplete on November 17, 2015, 04:31:21 PM
Hi Alex,

Glad you opened this thread up again.

I just wanted to say that right now I am playing SS with modified settings file so I have 2000 trade fleets with nexerelin.

After the update, if I attack a trade fleet, will other trade fleets help fight against me? Cuz then I have like 50 massive fleets against me...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ghoti on November 17, 2015, 04:33:29 PM
Quote
After the update, if I attack a trade fleet, will other trade fleets help fight against me? Cuz then I have like 50 massive fleets against me...

I don't think your save is going to make the transition. Just a bet.  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: gruberscomplete on November 17, 2015, 04:49:08 PM
Quote
After the update, if I attack a trade fleet, will other trade fleets help fight against me? Cuz then I have like 50 massive fleets against me...

I don't think your save is going to make the transition. Just a bet.  ;D

lol. Naw man, I toss saves in a day, then make a new one with drastically different settings file config. 2000 trade fleets isn't really demanding for some reason. 10k will probably push it tho.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Bribe Guntails on November 17, 2015, 04:51:38 PM
Can't wait to play the 0.7 release and see how much playing the game actually changes with Sensors, Fleet NPC's, and more.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 17, 2015, 04:52:06 PM
Trade fleets don't help anyone out. Can't risk that cargo unnecessarily, you know!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on November 17, 2015, 04:55:13 PM
Yeah, I can see dropping vents if you want SO as a "speed boost at the cost of peak time" option, rather than a dissipation boost. But it's a lot of dissipation to give up, and Augmented Engines + SO may well be overkill, while ITU is kind of pointless with SO. In any case, I'm excited to see how this turns out :)

Override Tempest:  the best 30 seconds money can buy


It might actually be nutty on low-tech ships that don't normally bother with shields.  Throw extra armor + overrides on a brawling Enforcer and turn yourself into the ultimate pain train.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 17, 2015, 04:57:57 PM
Can't wait to experiment with SO.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on November 17, 2015, 05:02:31 PM
Burn Driving into someone's face with an Enforcer covered in the new HMGs and Chainguns is definitely something on my 0.7 to-do list.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on November 17, 2015, 05:09:08 PM
Same here! :D
Though I'm also dreading level 20 enemy officers with SO.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 17, 2015, 05:24:20 PM
yup, same for me^^

don't think i've ever used an Enforcer flagship before, but it will fit nicely into the pirate run i plan on doing.

@Toxcity: i think Alex mentioned that the ai doesn't really use SO, aside from some Luddic Path specific variants. it's mainly meant to provide a playstyle choice to the player.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 17, 2015, 06:46:02 PM
Looks fun! Have you finalized what the exact range changes for SO are/will the game have that info?

Also, in your experience how well do the officer personalities mesh with SO? Are there any personalities that are more aggressive about lowering shields to allow hard flux to dissipate? I'm imagining a situation where a SO ship takes a bunch of hard flux on the shield and then clams up. Then again, they have so much dissipation that maybe they can just keep firing everything anyways.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 17, 2015, 07:15:18 PM
Looks fun! Have you finalized what the exact range changes for SO are/will the game have that info?

It's 450 + 0.25 * (range - 450). The tooltip just says "drastically".


Also, in your experience how well do the officer personalities mesh with SO? Are there any personalities that are more aggressive about lowering shields to allow hard flux to dissipate? I'm imagining a situation where a SO ship takes a bunch of hard flux on the shield and then clams up. Then again, they have so much dissipation that maybe they can just keep firing everything anyways.

You know, I'm not entirely sure. IIRC personalities don't impact shield use directly, and as far as what's better with SO? A lot of the differentiation between personalities is based around weapon range (i.e. aggressive will close in to try to use the most guns possible), but SO erases much of that.

"Timid" would be a bad choice, unless you're using SO for long range missile support, though you'd probably be better off with Unstable Injector in that case. Beyond that? I'd guess it depends very much on the loadout specifics.

(In a current test game, I've got a "steady" officer on an SO Wolf with Annihilators, a Mining Blaster, and some PD. It's doing surprisingly well, though I'll probably replace the Annihilators with Swarmers - too many end up missing due to it moving so quickly after starting off a burst. Also need to get Gunnery Implants on that guy so the Mining Blaster gets more accurate...)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Originem on November 17, 2015, 07:40:20 PM
Released my mods’ last version in 0.652a on Baidu, i cant wait any more :o
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheHengeProphet on November 17, 2015, 08:33:00 PM
Looks fun! Have you finalized what the exact range changes for SO are/will the game have that info?

It's 450 + 0.25 * (range - 450). The tooltip just says "drastically".

So a laser which does 1000 range will now have a range of 587.5?  That IS drastic.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on November 17, 2015, 08:33:12 PM
Lots of great changes. Was wondering when spawning would be improved.

Man this is going to be fun.  :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ciago92 on November 17, 2015, 08:39:15 PM
Loving the boarding changes. Much less randomness, much more "I'm playing Hegemony this game but I want some high tech ships. Better stock up on the marines"
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 18, 2015, 01:09:59 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/ZTMweFR.jpg)

I swear this is a really elaborate plan to kill us all via blood pressure and heart attacks!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JohnDoe on November 18, 2015, 02:42:47 AM
Always successful provided there are enough marines

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 18, 2015, 04:27:05 AM
Looks fun! Have you finalized what the exact range changes for SO are/will the game have that info?

It's 450 + 0.25 * (range - 450). The tooltip just says "drastically".

So a laser which does 1000 range will now have a range of 587.5?  That IS drastic.

Range 400 gets increased to 412.5 though :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 18, 2015, 04:57:58 AM
Range 400 gets increased to 412.5 though :)

Wouldn't that be 437.5?

Anyway, I'd assume that there is a "if range >=450" cutoff. Otherwise the 250 range Vulcan would have 400 range with SO.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 18, 2015, 06:03:15 AM
Range 400 gets increased to 412.5 though :)

Wouldn't that be 437.5?

Anyway, I'd assume that there is a "if range >=450" cutoff. Otherwise the 250 range Vulcan would have 400 range with SO.


Uh, yeah that's what I meant! Just testing you ;)

Yeah, vulcans would become even more awesome :)
Almost wishing there is no conditional, for some monumental close range dakka dakka moments!

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7263504 (http://www.tubechop.com/watch/7263504)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 18, 2015, 06:15:28 AM
Just realized that AI's reduced skills in the new Easy difficulty may mean less experience from fighting.  Another reason to play Normal, so that skill hungry characters can have more experience, more levels, more skills, and MORE POWER!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SpacePoliticianAndaZealot on November 18, 2015, 08:49:15 AM
Just realized that AI's reduced skills in the new Easy difficulty may mean less experience from fighting.  Another reason to play Normal, so that skill hungry characters can have more experience, more levels, more skills, and MORE POWER!
I doubt it. If it will be implemented, it should be reserved for 50% damage crutch.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 18, 2015, 01:26:54 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/A8nhMmN.gif)

Me trying to resist the urge to f5
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Spoorthuzad on November 18, 2015, 01:48:17 PM
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/A8nhMmN.gif)
[close]

Me trying to resist the urge to f5

When the update is released
(http://i.imgur.com/UQxoD6T.gif)
*insert loud scream here*
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: gruberscomplete on November 18, 2015, 02:36:36 PM
does Alex even work at the current hours? for me its US eastern time so 9am - 5 pm?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 18, 2015, 02:46:09 PM
It says on the bottom that Alex is on the forum right now, so assuming that's correct, it's prime F5-ing time.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 18, 2015, 03:51:54 PM
Well I will go to bed now. Surely nothing exciting will happen while I'm gone (http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc283/mKBy09/Emoticons%20and%20GIFs/paranoid.gif)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on November 18, 2015, 04:53:51 PM
Oh c'mon Alex, spare us. At this point you should tell us the day its going to happen. The suspense of the impending release is getting brutal.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BHunterSEAL on November 18, 2015, 05:15:52 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/A8nhMmN.gif)

Me trying to resist the urge to f5

I love me some Sellers, but can't place that one. Hint?

Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop F5ing and Wait for Alex
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 18, 2015, 06:10:55 PM
Oh c'mon Alex, spare us. At this point you should tell us the day its going to happen. The suspense of the impending release is getting brutal.

Oh, I'll definitely tell you, the day it's going to happen.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 18, 2015, 06:15:20 PM
Ah, the use of commas.  The bane of every fan boy's existence. :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cyan Leader on November 18, 2015, 07:17:33 PM
I'd wager that a "fairy major bug" can set Alex back for at least the weekend, so don't go holding your breaths just yet guys.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 18, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
That bug got fixed within minutes. It was major in terms of impact not in terms fix difficulty :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DairyFreeSilk on November 18, 2015, 07:30:04 PM
Imminent release confirmed     ??? 8)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 18, 2015, 07:31:43 PM
Imminent release confirmed     ??? 8)
Maybe tomorrow but most likely not today as it LOOKS like Alex has a tendency to post around 4 to 5PM EST
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheDTYP on November 18, 2015, 07:34:04 PM
Operating under the assumption the patch is released tomorrow (Thursday) I'll be driving from one side of the country to the other (12 hour drive) all day. Go figure, just my luck XD
See you all Friday!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cyan Leader on November 18, 2015, 07:46:45 PM
My mistake, carry on the hype.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 18, 2015, 09:07:36 PM
That bug got fixed within minutes. It was major in terms of impact not in terms fix difficulty :)
So... what was it, may I ask? Stories of random bug are nearly always interesting to me.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on November 18, 2015, 09:12:48 PM
I'm operating under the assumption the new version got released yesterday and I'm just holding off. ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 18, 2015, 09:16:49 PM
So... what was it, may I ask? Stories of random bug are nearly always interesting to me.

If you exit combat from the campaign, it takes you back to the main menu. If you then loaded a game, it'd still be showing you the interaction dialog prior to that combat. Which, for extra fun points, might even be from a different save. Hadn't caught that prior to this because if you've got devMode on (as I do 99% of the time) exiting from combat in the campaign just takes you back to the campaign with a "win".
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: gofastskatkat on November 19, 2015, 06:29:12 AM
I'm operating under the assumption the new version got released yesterday and I'm just holding off. ;D
Read the title of the op, it says "Starsector 0.7a (IN DEVELOPMENT)" in other words, wait young grasshopper
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Unfolder on November 19, 2015, 06:55:48 AM
the game is talking

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/bjcfg8a.png)
[close]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 19, 2015, 07:57:15 AM
the game is talking

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/bjcfg8a.png)
[close]

With the music to go with it  ^^
Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VutA6Bj_ZM&noredirect=1
[close]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Jonlissla on November 19, 2015, 08:11:43 AM
This waiting is a mental equal of physical pain.

The Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Additional Protocols of 8 June 1977 contain a number of provisions that absolutely prohibit torture and other cruel or inhuman treatment and outrages upon individual dignity.

You don't want to break the Gevena Convention, do you Alex?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Beigen on November 19, 2015, 08:30:46 AM
This waiting is a mental equal of physical pain.

The Geneva Conventions of 1949 and their Additional Protocols of 8 June 1977 contain a number of provisions that absolutely prohibit torture and other cruel or inhuman treatment and outrages upon individual dignity.

You don't want to break the Gevena Convention, do you Alex?

Im going to Quote Ocelot from MGS1 here:
"[...] You're no POW, you're a hostage. There's no Geneva Convention. No one is coming to save you. [...]"

Edit: horrible spelling
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: kruqnut on November 19, 2015, 09:03:25 AM
ahhh the anticipation. Oh well back to playing this disappointment called Fallout 4.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 19, 2015, 09:12:57 AM
Your guys' suffering gives me an indescribable perverse pleasure.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Volken on November 19, 2015, 09:40:52 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/kTbYHrr.jpg)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 19, 2015, 10:14:23 AM
Your guys' suffering gives me an indescribable perverse pleasure.
let's hope Alex doesn't feel the same way .__.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Spoorthuzad on November 19, 2015, 10:18:49 AM
Your guys' suffering gives me an indescribable perverse pleasure.
That is disgusting and I love it
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 10:24:17 AM
It's out! Updated OP with link to blog post.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 19, 2015, 10:25:24 AM
OMGOMGOMGOMG
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Jonlissla on November 19, 2015, 10:27:40 AM
Oh lawdy, this oughta be interesting.

Nice trailer by the way.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Spoorthuzad on November 19, 2015, 10:28:07 AM
YES! See you guys in a week!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 19, 2015, 10:34:28 AM
I got online not long ago, and 0.7 was not out.  After a few minutes of browsing elsewhere, I check one more time here and it is out!  I am downloading it, and will play it soon.  (Got more important things to do first before I can play.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 19, 2015, 10:36:02 AM
Noice  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 19, 2015, 10:38:56 AM
Can't watch that trailer, I need all that bandwidth...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 19, 2015, 10:40:46 AM
Well dl is extremely slow so watch it while you wait :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 19, 2015, 10:42:37 AM
You don't know how slow is my connection... It's not broadband!

Also, RC7? Did you slept at all these past 2 days Alex?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Raion on November 19, 2015, 10:44:08 AM
ALEX I LOVE YOU

no homo,but seriously thank you
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 19, 2015, 10:44:59 AM
@Shhhhh he is sleeping  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Zapier on November 19, 2015, 10:45:16 AM
ALEX I LOVE YOU

no homo

My love might indeed be homo... but I hope he appreciates it either way...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 19, 2015, 10:45:28 AM
Nothing more to say here.  Let's play!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 10:45:47 AM
You don't know how slow is my connection... It's not broadband!

Also, RC7? Did you slept at all these past 2 days Alex?

Honestly? Between the RC's and the excitement, not really, no :) Running on fumes!

Well dl is extremely slow so watch it while you wait :D

I seem to remember that being an issue for you last time, too. Maybe the alternate links will work faster? Those are straight from this server, while the download buttons get it from amazon.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 19, 2015, 10:48:00 AM
I really like the derelict gates (plural, I assume, haven't left Corvus yet) floating about, even if they don't do anything yet (OR DO THEY)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 19, 2015, 10:48:31 AM
By the way, I just noticed - the installer still uses the old Onslaught sprite.

Never, ever change that. :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on November 19, 2015, 10:48:58 AM
I really like the derelict gates (plural, I assume, haven't left Corvus yet) floating about, even if they don't do anything yet (OR DO THEY)

Blargle, spoilers! I'm still looking at the codex!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 19, 2015, 10:49:52 AM
Oh hell, just why do I have to work late today? >:(


Awesome trailer though, and the download speed is OK for me, 4 minutes. I'll put the file on my USB stick and treasure it until I come home ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 19, 2015, 10:51:07 AM
I seem to remember that being an issue for you last time, too. Maybe the alternate links will work faster? Those are straight from this server, while the download buttons get it from amazon.
Wow man i barely remember that even now when you mentioned it. Nice mission icons btw. And that is it from this version of the game from me. Still resisting urge to play :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 19, 2015, 10:53:01 AM
Aww, Godiva hidden in the portraits. :D

Even Starsector can't escape the cats!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: barecgesh on November 19, 2015, 10:53:20 AM
huzzah .7 is out
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 19, 2015, 10:56:40 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/7XpJTcZ.gif)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: David on November 19, 2015, 10:59:17 AM
...
(That's the exact gif I sent to Alex yesterday :D)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 19, 2015, 11:01:21 AM
It's the only one that properly conveys how this feels.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: theSONY on November 19, 2015, 11:11:10 AM
                                                         !!  All Aboard  !!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Nick XR on November 19, 2015, 11:30:05 AM
That is a great trailer.  Short, shows off what is great, leaves people wanting more (sound and music are great too).  Nice work.



Also, can't wait to play this release!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 19, 2015, 11:40:03 AM
Gah, I'm at work!! Still, I'm very pleased that its out! I know what I'm doing tonight at least.

[Edit] Trailer is nice! Short and sweet.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: FooF on November 19, 2015, 11:41:51 AM
I haven't played vanilla in such a long time. God the starts are hard (even on easy). With the transponder stuff now, the range that I can detect pirates is tiny and I end up burning supplies trying to find ones that I can reasonably handle. I literally ran out of credits and supplies so I had to start over.

I did have my first joint fleet engagement, though. Two pirate frigates were running from a Hegemony patrol and since they weren't afraid of me, they attacked only to have the patrol join the fray! They did most of the damage and I think I got a total of 2 credits, 2 supplies and 1 fuel for my participation.  :P

Oh, and holy hell there are more systems now and hyperspace travel is frikkin' sweet now. Love all the graphical changes and additions.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: gozer on November 19, 2015, 11:42:39 AM
yesssssss .... new release. So glad I remembered to check forum today  ;)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 11:50:22 AM
I haven't played vanilla in such a long time. God the starts are hard (even on easy). With the transponder stuff now, the range that I can detect pirates is tiny and I end up burning supplies trying to find ones that I can reasonably handle. I literally ran out of credits and supplies so I had to start over.

(Hot tip: turn the transponder off to reduce the chances of getting ambushed like that. Alternatively, use Active Sensor Burst to scope out the nearby area and, most likely, attract some unwanted attention. Wouldn't do both at the same time, though, that's just asking for patrols to come looking.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Schwartz on November 19, 2015, 12:06:15 PM
Preliminary review: I like the beeps and boops.

The Kite (D) class has a weird distorted Mule sprite in the codex.

The new Arbalest looks fantastic. I miss the old Tarsus, but comparing the two, it's probably just the colour scheme.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 19, 2015, 12:32:59 PM
It's weird how friendlies are so eager to deploy multiple destroyers and swarms of frigates and fighters to assist me in killing two Hounds.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on November 19, 2015, 12:55:06 PM
seems pretty neat, only complaint is the rather stale starting options. really needs a pirate/factional start system with branching options IMO

sensor stuff is neat but i haven't really gotten that far into the game yet on account of being jumped by pirate attack fleets. maybe i'm just doing it wrong but detect range in the wolf is so small as to be basically nonexistent.

edit: also new systems are really nice looking, my only complaint is that many of them seem very empty; perhaps there are hidden bases i can't see though, in combination with the new sensor system(?) i recall the X series had hidden pirate bases you could dock at. i'll keep exploring in the meantime anyway, been waiting for release on this one for months.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 01:00:10 PM
sensor stuff is neat but i haven't really gotten that far into the game yet on account of being jumped by pirate attack fleets. maybe i'm just doing it wrong but detect range in the wolf is so small as to be basically nonexistent.

A large part of this is the transponder - if pirates see you coming before you see them, by the time you see them they're already flying at you at full speed (or have gone dark) and it's too late. It's more manageable with the transponder off (or if you travel at more oblique angles to where you expect pirates to be), but then you have to watch out for patrols.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Chronosfear on November 19, 2015, 01:01:32 PM
Thank you all.

The new update is sweet as a cake.
I started a easy game to get back into from a long abstinence

The "worldmap" including deepspace is really nice.
e.g the corona on the pirate gas giant from the sun

I like that if i join an ongoing battle , the 2 fleets are already in the middle of the battle while i must fly there from the edge also luring pirates in a trap ( its a trap ! ) by using sensor burst works pretty nice.  ::)
So all of the skills i have seen so far have their uses depending on what you wanna do.
Very well done !

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: lStealtherl on November 19, 2015, 01:01:56 PM
Suppose I can forget my sleep now
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Grievous69 on November 19, 2015, 01:05:55 PM
Really good work on the new update, but man is game hard now. I'm playing on easy and I'm getting *** hard, pirates come out of nowhere with crazy burn speed and just kill me. Also I don't understand the transponder thing, it says when I turn it off I should be harder to detect but most off the time turning it off doesn't do anything. Can anyone please explain me how this new stuff works. Thanks in advance ;)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Chronosfear on November 19, 2015, 01:11:26 PM
Really good work on the new update, but man is game hard now. I'm playing on easy and I'm getting *** hard, pirates come out of nowhere with crazy burn speed and just kill me. Also I don't understand the transponder thing, it says when I turn it off I should be harder to detect but most off the time turning it off doesn't do anything. Can anyone please explain me how this new stuff works. Thanks in advance ;)

Just dont fly directly to possible pirate locations .. get closer to them slowly, also use sensor burst to draw some attention. Probably a pirate force will look after it ( transponder on or you will draw local forces attention , too )
Have a look a the 2 numbers in the left ( the numbers are how well you´re seen while how well you can see them )
turning transponder off and flying dark both reduces your sensor profile i think. You could try that.
Or just follow a medium sized Hegemony fleet ( heading for pirate worlds ) and join the fight.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 19, 2015, 01:13:25 PM
Hint if you're finding the game too hard: named bounties seem easier, you can probably take 20,000 credits ones in your starting Wolf.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Grievous69 on November 19, 2015, 01:14:26 PM
Really good work on the new update, but man is game hard now. I'm playing on easy and I'm getting *** hard, pirates come out of nowhere with crazy burn speed and just kill me. Also I don't understand the transponder thing, it says when I turn it off I should be harder to detect but most off the time turning it off doesn't do anything. Can anyone please explain me how this new stuff works. Thanks in advance ;)

Just dont fly directly to possible pirate locations .. get closer to them slowly, also use sensor burst to draw some attention. Probably a pirate force will look after it ( transponder on or you will draw local forces attention , too )
Have a look a the 2 numbers in the left ( the numbers are how well you´re seen while how well you can see them )
turning transponder off and flying dark both reduces your sensor profile i think. You could try that.
Or just follow a medium sized Hegemony fleet ( heading for pirate worlds ) and join the fight.

Thanks man, I pretty much understand it now. Seems like sticking with Hegemony fleets like glue is a viable strat.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: miro on November 19, 2015, 01:14:47 PM
The atmosphere is incredible. Without being able to see ships milling around all over the show, the game feels quieter, and foreboding. The flavor text on some of the abandoned stuff in new systems really drove home to me how dire the sector's situation is, and how much has been lost.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on November 19, 2015, 01:22:46 PM
It's out! Yessss! Not to mention the trailer looks awesome. Must refrain from skipping class to play. Must refrain from skipping class to play. Must refrain from skipping class to play.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 19, 2015, 01:54:29 PM
Darn, I have to go to school...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 19, 2015, 02:02:15 PM
Hmm... you need to be stationary to take advantage of planetary rings, but if you stay still they just slide out from underneath you after a few seconds. That's very awkward. Maybe stopping on top of them should "anchor" you to them and keep you immobile relative to them.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: J3R on November 19, 2015, 02:03:13 PM
Thanks for the update I'm not active much on forums but I love this game.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SpacePoliticianAndaZealot on November 19, 2015, 02:03:20 PM
It's out. It's like Christmas morning  :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: mendonca on November 19, 2015, 02:08:30 PM
This is great :)

Must admit was totally (repeatedly) bushwhacked by not understanding the sensor mechanics immediately ... but yeah, once you start to use them, and think about how to use them, I think they really do work nicely.

Maybe there is some tweaking to do on ranges for starter fleets, to try and avoid the 'newbie trap' (those first few pirates really, genuinely, just came from nowhere :)), but then, maybe not (now I've learnt my lesson, I understand it is a key mechanic and can start to skulk about, skirting around the 'genestealer' blips hanging around in space). Looks like there will be a lot of discussion on this, anyway :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Vind on November 19, 2015, 02:09:29 PM
Awakened from sleep at night and wondered why. Checked site for release... JACKPOT! Excellent trailer with very vibrant sounds and music.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Zaphide on November 19, 2015, 02:16:47 PM
It's out! Updated OP with link to blog post.

Congrats on the release Alex (and David and StianStark of course)  :D

Great work on the new trailer (although I do feel you could add a bit more of the lore into it (maybe for the next trailer?))

Love the new ship descriptions (only had a chance to look at the codex so far) and I think the fact that there are now passenger liners (i.e. more non-military ships) is really starting to make the sector seem like a living eco-system!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Aklyon on November 19, 2015, 02:17:49 PM
I'm liking this update a lot. The atmosphere is amazing compared to before, the music is cool, the pirates are ninjas. Ninjas that are telling me that I suck at flying a wolf instead of mod ships :)

A question though: How do you catch things in bigger ships with the Navigation skill changed to what it is now? Do you just have to be sneakier?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 19, 2015, 02:17:56 PM
One tiny thing about the trailer... It goes like: Trade! *shows trade*, Upgrade! *shows upgrade screen*,  Plan! *shows tactical map*, ........*shows battle*. I'm missing the "Fight!".


Anyway, I'm just this second starting a new campaign (I'm home now) and before I do anything else I have to say: I love the new portraits, great work David! They're so much cleaner than the old ones.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 19, 2015, 02:24:17 PM
After 20 seconds of playing, I realize this.

Damn, it's hard to avoid pirates.  I'm so used to the old "sensor" system - this'll take some time getting used to, and more time after that to learn how to use it properly.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 19, 2015, 02:24:44 PM
I love the depth that's been added to the campaign map movement; really feels like an integral part of the game now.

The start is indeed a lot harder; new map mechanics, new market dynamics, new star systems, new AI loadouts & behaviour, rebalanced skills, more expensive hulls that are harder to find, so much to adapt to!

- I found New Maxios had supplies @ ~350 ea... blew my entire balance on super expensive supplies (~120 ea) from the nearby Tri-Tach base to make a quick buck..... then returned to New Maxios to find supplies @ 40 ea  >:( Restart!
- My Lasher (with mostly KI weapons) jumped by a terrifyingly deadly Attack Frigate (no idea what the cpt had, but I didn't even get through his armour!); Restart!
- Engaged solitary pirate... engagement screen showed an additional 45bjillion pirates that were apparently nearby but not visible on my scanners at all. Restart!

I *shall* reach lvl60 without any death restarts!

My one complaint is that this release didn't provide me with a replacement mouse!
I'm stuck playing with a RMB that doesn't work properly! The micro-switch often double clicks, leading to both undesired overloads & unintended hull damage  :(
Ordering new mouse right after I finish this post; can't have it spoil my SS enjoyment.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: vitowns on November 19, 2015, 02:26:56 PM
Greetings new player here only had this game last week i think, but i played nonstop of previous build but i must say this build is even more amazing, i'm really amazed and i love fighting side by side with the hedgemony against pirates and everything this update is about. The whole sensors thing is really cool and truly gives me a feel of a space commander even more than the previous build i played, nicely done thanks :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: JohnDoe on November 19, 2015, 02:28:08 PM
CHRISTMAS CAME EARLY!

I CAME TOO
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sordid on November 19, 2015, 02:31:00 PM
Okay, here's the biggest problem that's obvious to me immediately: Quick Load doesn't work in battle. You have to quit aaaaaall the way to the main menu, then manually load the game via the load game menu.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 19, 2015, 02:43:43 PM
Quick comments:

The game sometimes freezes before combat begins, and I need to exit the game; I suspect lack of memory.  (I do not have 64-bit Java on my machine.)  I should try dev mode to see if that fixes the problem (after I get a bigger fleet).

Game seems harder to start than before.  It is easy to get ambushed, and it is hard to find weak or small targets to pick off.  Joining battles is a double-edged sword.  Sometimes, you get to join a big battle and earn some XP and loot.  Other times, you just stumbled unknowingly into an impossible fight, and you need to flee (and get pursued).

I like the Wolf's new starter configuration - pulse laser and PD lasers.

Suicide exploit is still there.  I took the broken Hermes from the abandoned station and suicide it for a Lasher.

Two of the new systems are dead duds - no markets, no enemies, waste of time.

Safety Override is good for some ships stuck with short-ranged weapons.  I use it on the Lasher.  I tried it on my Wolf with Heavy Blaster, but not being able to vent hurts too much.

It is nice to kill things and not worry about Vengeful relations ruining my game.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on November 19, 2015, 02:44:34 PM
Play Ironman, solves all your quickload issues! >8D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 03:11:13 PM
Thanks, guys!

Hmm... you need to be stationary to take advantage of planetary rings, but if you stay still they just slide out from underneath you after a few seconds. That's very awkward. Maybe stopping on top of them should "anchor" you to them and keep you immobile relative to them.

Hmm, yeah. Note: you can move slowly without losing the bonus. One-two second bursts to somewhere very close by are ok.

Must admit was totally (repeatedly) bushwhacked by not understanding the sensor mechanics immediately ... but yeah, once you start to use them, and think about how to use them, I think they really do work nicely.

Maybe there is some tweaking to do on ranges for starter fleets, to try and avoid the 'newbie trap' (those first few pirates really, genuinely, just came from nowhere :)), but then, maybe not (now I've learnt my lesson, I understand it is a key mechanic and can start to skulk about, skirting around the 'genestealer' blips hanging around in space). Looks like there will be a lot of discussion on this, anyway :)

You know, this very closely describes my own experience during playtesting. I even played around with sensor ranges and reduced fleet speeds, but somewhere along the way reverted it to the original values and found I'd just gotten used to it. And now getting bushwacked by pirates is not a thing that happens very often.

One other point about pirates: if you've got the transponder off, they won't go after you until they see you as more than a blip. So you get a bit of a grace period where you're able to start evading before they start pursuing.

Still, it's a good point and is echoed by others having trouble with the same thing. Not entirely sure what to do about it, though - just blanketly raising sensor ranges wouldn't be a good solution.

One thought I'd had is adding a new ability - call it "High Alert" - that would give you, say, +500 sensor range in exchange for increased maintenance costs. But you'd have to know how to utilize that, so, again, not exactly newbie-friendly.



A question though: How do you catch things in bigger ships with the Navigation skill changed to what it is now? Do you just have to be sneakier?

Sneakier, using terrain opportunistically, using emergency burn.


- I found New Maxios had supplies @ ~350 ea... blew my entire balance on super expensive supplies (~120 ea) from the nearby Tri-Tach base to make a quick buck..... then returned to New Maxios to find supplies @ 40 ea  >:( Restart!

Disruptions last for a month, so to help avoid this sort of thing, make sure there's enough time left on it for you to make it there.

My one complaint is that this release didn't provide me with a replacement mouse!
I'm stuck playing with a RMB that doesn't work properly! The micro-switch often double clicks, leading to both undesired overloads & unintended hull damage  :(
Ordering new mouse right after I finish this post; can't have it spoil my SS enjoyment.

Good luck :)

Greetings new player here only had this game last week i think, but i played nonstop of previous build but i must say this build is even more amazing, i'm really amazed and i love fighting side by side with the hedgemony against pirates and everything this update is about. The whole sensors thing is really cool and truly gives me a feel of a space commander even more than the previous build i played, nicely done thanks :D

:D


The game sometimes freezes before combat begins, and I need to exit the game; I suspect lack of memory.  (I do not have 64-bit Java on my machine.)  I should try dev mode to see if that fixes the problem (after I get a bigger fleet).

Hmm. I don't think it's a lack of memory. Vanilla barely uses 200MB. Not sure what it could be, though. Generic things to try: video drivers; rebooting.

Game seems harder to start than before.  It is easy to get ambushed, and it is hard to find weak or small targets to pick off.  Joining battles is a double-edged sword.  Sometimes, you get to join a big battle and earn some XP and loot.  Other times, you just stumbled unknowingly into an impossible fight, and you need to flee (and get pursued).

Right - as per my reply to mendonca, it definitely feels like that to start, but is very much something you can figure out how to work with. Had tons of trouble with it in early playthroughs, and very little in later ones.

Two of the new systems are dead duds - no markets, no enemies, waste of time.

Not exactly; lots of times named bounties will hide out there.

Safety Override is good for some ships stuck with short-ranged weapons.  I use it on the Lasher.  I tried it on my Wolf with Heavy Blaster, but not being able to vent hurts too much.

Personally, I'd ended up using it a lot with a Pulse Laser-armed Wolf, to what felt like very good effect. And once you get some points into Target Analysis, that makes such a huge difference. Ostensibly low-damage weapons like the Pulse Laser and Swarmers can all of a sudden take out cruisers.


Okay, here's the biggest problem that's obvious to me immediately: Quick Load doesn't work in battle. You have to quit aaaaaall the way to the main menu, then manually load the game via the load game menu.

Hmm, might not be a bad idea. Not the most trivial implementation-wise, though, would have to do it very very carefully.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: theSONY on November 19, 2015, 03:42:26 PM
need more pirates, in my game pirate faction is getting owned & i don't have anything to hunt  :-\
& its a struggle to maintain in the universe ( supplies !! ) i dunno, maybe i'm doing something wrong
or maybe i must reLearn to play the game
                                                                                                                                                                                                      :P

Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 03:45:04 PM
I'd recommend going to where the bounties are, if you're not doing that already. Also, if you join a battle, how much salvage you get depends on the damage you do.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 19, 2015, 03:48:37 PM
Quick early thoughts:

- If you counted on the "joint battles" to ease the early on difficulty, you failed >< The game is much harder and quite prone to jump on you by surprise early on. The "Oh you didn't detected that other pirate fleet that will join my side to wreck your brand new ships? That's so sad" Effect...

- The economy seems completely random: every market is flooded and I even had a "Food Shortage" that raised the price of ration to a whooping 30 credits... Of course I didn't paid attention and 30 creds was the normal price where I bought them.

- Detection range visual cue isn't really readable given the distance to the fleet, I often wonder if I'm way inside or way outside. Also the shortcut doesn't do anything?

- Lastly DAMN THOSE CRAZIES LUDD FLEETS!

Well, tomorrow will be update day for Scy for sure ^^
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 03:55:42 PM
- If you counted on the "joint battles" to ease the early on difficulty, you failed >< The game is much harder and quite prone to jump on you by surprise early on. The "Oh you didn't detected that other pirate fleet that will join my side to wreck your brand new ships? That's so sad" Effect...

I think once get a feel for those mechanics, it gets a good bit easier :) I mean, I get what you're saying, but from personal playtesting, the early game feels a lot smoother than it ever did. Again, once I got over the "getting bushwacked" thing. Which is definitely a thing.

- Detection range visual cue isn't really readable given the distance to the fleet, I often wonder if I'm way inside or way outside. Also the shortcut doesn't do anything?

What shortcut?

- Lastly DAMN THOSE CRAZIES LUDD FLEETS!

Just pay them off :) Or put SO on your own ship.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: HELMUT on November 19, 2015, 04:08:12 PM
Yaaaay update! Thanks god, some modders started to lose their mind with wait.

Anyway, i played the campaign a bit and it felt so good! So much new stuff, ships, weapons, reskin, and juicy secret lore! Also cats skulking in the portrait folder.

The game also felt harder to me, but i think it's mostly due to the new sensor system. Like (i think?) everyone, i was also caught by surprise by ninja pirates ambushing me. It was also probably due to my playstyle adapted to the previous version where my finger was constantly locked on the "accelerate time" button in campaign. Now it's much riskier to do that. Fortunately, once i learned when to de/activate the transponder and use the emergency burn, things goes much smoother.

Another reason why the game felt so hard at the beginning is probably because of the Wolf. It's quite a glass cannon and the front shield coupled to its long profile make it so vulnerable to flanking. I personally switched to a Lasher with safety override and unstable injector. Strapped two annihilators, a truckload of machine guns and yelled "RAMMING SPEED!" at every targets. It's brutally efficient, even destroyers are food for a dakka-lasher.

Expanded battles can be quite fantastic as well. Just at the beginning of my campaign, a huge brawl between the Hegemony, independents and pirates exploded in hyperspace. Ships everywhere.

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/F6tnkce.png)
Only the tip of the iceberg, many pirates were still hidden in the fog of war.
[close]

Had some troubles with ships explosions though. With the mods, i forgot about those blinding flashes when big ships exploded. I know this have been a suggestion for a long time, but i hope this will looked at in the future, it's genuinely painful to the eyes.

And yeah, Luddic path ships are pure evil. So freaking fast and agile, and absolutely everywhere!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 19, 2015, 04:13:40 PM
Yaaaay update! Thanks god, some modders started to lose their mind with wait.

Anyway, i played the campaign a bit and it felt so good! So much new stuff, ships, weapons, reskin, and juicy secret lore! Also cats skulking in the portrait folder.

The game also felt harder to me, but i think it's mostly due to the new sensor system. Like (i think?) everyone, i was also caught by surprise by ninja pirates ambushing me. It was also probably due to my playstyle adapted to the previous version where my finger was constantly locked on the "accelerate time" button in campaign. Now it's much riskier to do that. Fortunately, once i learned when to de/activate the transponder and use the emergency burn, things goes much smoother.

Another reason why the game felt so hard at the beginning is probably because of the Wolf. It's quite a glass cannon and the front shield coupled to its long profile make it so vulnerable to flanking. I personally switched to a Lasher with safety override and unstable injector. Strapped two annihilators, a truckload of machine guns and yelled "RAMMING SPEED!" at every targets. It's brutally efficient, even destroyers are food for a dakka-lasher.

Expanded battles can be quite fantastic as well. Just at the beginning of my campaign, a huge brawl between the Hegemony, independents and pirates exploded in hyperspace. Ships everywhere.

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/F6tnkce.png)
Only the tip of the iceberg, many pirates were still hidden in the fog of war.
[close]

Had some troubles with ships explosions though. With the mods, i forgot about those blinding flashes when big ships exploded. I know this have been a suggestion for a long time, but i hope this will looked at in the future, it's genuinely painful to the eyes.

And yeah, Luddic path ships are pure evil. So freaking fast and agile, and absolutely everywhere!

It is in the config file already Helmut!
For those that don't know where it is, it is in the settings file. Look for this line and set it to false like it is here: "enableShipExplosionWhiteout":false,
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 19, 2015, 04:14:42 PM
This is so much fun! And so exiting!  ;D


I'm playing as an iron mode bounty hunter at the moment and while I got ambushed by pirates three times now I could beat them back every time. I just visited my first other system and bought the first ship for my fleet, another Wolf :)

I haven't fully understood all the sensor mechanics yet, but the cat and mouse games are already a blast. A pirate fleet tried to jump me and I dodged into a patrol which chased them over the horizon and left me laughing :) I thought it might be helpful if hovering the cursor over the TRIPAD sensor range indicator would show a circle of the same? The pure numbers seem very abstract.

Got to sleep now, but can't wait to continue this tomorrow!




e/ Oh and I forgot to mention, my girlfriend told me to tell you that the star coronas are really beautiful, Alex ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 19, 2015, 04:19:06 PM
I think once get a feel for those mechanics, it gets a good bit easier :) I mean, I get what you're saying, but from personal playtesting, the early game feels a lot smoother than it ever did. Again, once I got over the "getting bushwacked" thing. Which is definitely a thing.
Here's how I see it:
In 0.65 you got thrown alone in the water, but if you kept your eyes open your only threat was to engage a fleet too strong. And once you got the hang of it, you could get a sizable fleet of cruisers in under 2 hours.

Now? Well you can get caught of guard early one with little chance to prevent it. Pirates fleets tend to happily gang on you. Loot has little to no values with the economy so filled with huge stacks. Shortages take much longer to reach and are often less profitable.

So yeah the games is much more interesting, and it's smoother in the sense that you don't gain a lot of power too easily, I feel it is harder overall.

Quote
What shortcut?

Show sensor range, the fourth one.

Quote
Just pay them off :) Or put SO on your own ship.
That I did, but SO is very costly before a few levels in tech. (but it so great in a Lasher!!!!)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ciago92 on November 19, 2015, 04:19:49 PM
The first couple times I got bushwhacked but I'm learning quickly. One odd thing is the fighter (torpedo bomber) ai when joining in a fight. They tend to linger and not do much and not move as they get shot unless they can actively shoot something. Two of three Tridents had already expended ammo but there was a carrier on the field. Will turn into a bug report if I can document more, just thought I'd bring it up for you/others to be aware of.

Two "watercooler" moments already: one was joining my first big battle in my little lonely wolf and just seeing a ton of ships already in the middle of combat. Great experience, even if I barely got anything for helping out. (Newbie trap: joining battles and spending more on supplies than you earned for helping)

Second was new mechanics, decided to plant a comm sniffer. Lingered out of range of anything, killed transponder, went dark and crawled in, planted the sniffer, eyeing up every ship as it slowly crawled past, sensor range just not quite hitting me. Finally finish up, just as a patrol swings my way. Moving in the opposite direction from him so he loses me, then he does an active sensor burst. I panic and hit the emergency burn, he does the same, I just outrace him and turn away and hit go dark as he flies by, not noticing me. Slowly crawl back to the station, barely remembering to turn my transponder on before I get there. Great experience, loved every second, and entirely from new mechanics.

GREAT JOB ALEX!!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 19, 2015, 04:22:58 PM
Hammer Torpedos are *nasty*!

They seem to be guided for the 1st few ms?, fly as fast as a Harpoon, but hit like an Atropos; ouch!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 19, 2015, 04:26:57 PM
One thing I dislike about the sensor business is how damnably zealous about enforcing transponders patrols are. I mean, sure, you saw me with transponder off for a couple seconds on the edge of the system, but is that really worth commiting a 25-ship battlefleet to a week-long chase involving multiple emergency burns? Hell, they'll even get that mad if I have my transponder off somewhere in deep hyperspace between systems and they happen to see it.

I feel that a patrol's reaction to transponder off should strongly depend on where it happens. Right next to a market - proabably a smuggler, definitely needs to be pursued. Somewhere in the system - will probably investigate, but will give up if it can't catch up quickly. Somewhere in hyperspace outside of faction's space - will probably be ignored unless there's a reason to do otherwise.

Also, it should depend on the fleet's size. A couple unidentified frigates is no huge deal. An unidentified large fleet could be an invasion force trying to sneak in for a surprise attack and should be vigorously investigated by patrols.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 19, 2015, 04:29:00 PM
Had some troubles with ships explosions though. With the mods, i forgot about those blinding flashes when big ships exploded. I know this have been a suggestion for a long time, but i hope this will looked at in the future, it's genuinely painful to the eyes.
There's a ship explosion whiteout option in the config.  I turned it off.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: HELMUT on November 19, 2015, 04:37:29 PM
It is in the config file already Helmut!
For those that don't know where it is, it is in the settings file. Look for this line and set it to false like it is here: "enableShipExplosionWhiteout":false,
There's a ship explosion whiteout option in the config.  I turned it off.

Ah thanks, will do that.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Aklyon on November 19, 2015, 04:45:23 PM
One thing I dislike about the sensor business is how damnably zealous about enforcing transponders patrols are. I mean, sure, you saw me with transponder off for a couple seconds on the edge of the system, but is that really worth commiting a 25-ship battlefleet to a week-long chase involving multiple emergency burns? Hell, they'll even get that mad if I have my transponder off somewhere in deep hyperspace between systems and they happen to see it.

I feel that a patrol's reaction to transponder off should strongly depend on where it happens. Right next to a market - proabably a smuggler, definitely needs to be pursued. Somewhere in the system - will probably investigate, but will give up if it can't catch up quickly. Somewhere in hyperspace outside of faction's space - will probably be ignored unless there's a reason to do otherwise.

Also, it should depend on the fleet's size. A couple unidentified frigates is no huge deal. An unidentified large fleet could be an invasion force trying to sneak in for a surprise attack and should be vigorously investigated by patrols.
I'd agree with this. I'm only two frigates damnit, it can't be that worthwhile to chase after me!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on November 19, 2015, 04:48:06 PM
Hmm... you need to be stationary to take advantage of planetary rings, but if you stay still they just slide out from underneath you after a few seconds. That's very awkward. Maybe stopping on top of them should "anchor" you to them and keep you immobile relative to them.

Hmm, yeah. Note: you can move slowly without losing the bonus. One-two second bursts to somewhere very close by are ok.

I would really like a way to station-keep like the AIs do orbiting planets/stations. Maybe holding the mouse button down for a couple seconds or ctrl-click? Have it work in the map-view, too, so you can drift in an asteroid belt or ring system.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Aeson on November 19, 2015, 05:11:16 PM
Is there no experience gained from completing missions? Not even normal trade experience (assuming that's still in; thus far, the only 'trading' I've done are the courier contracts)? Just wondering, because I've completed several missions and turned a profit on each, and have gained a grand total of 0 experience towards the next level.

Also, some missions feel like they have extremely tight time limits; I'm getting the feeling that it's usually not worth bothering with 10-day missions if the delivery point isn't in the same system, at least not early on.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 05:14:53 PM
Here's how I see it:
In 0.65 you got thrown alone in the water, but if you kept your eyes open your only threat was to engage a fleet too strong. And once you got the hang of it, you could get a sizable fleet of cruisers in under 2 hours.

Now? Well you can get caught of guard early one with little chance to prevent it. Pirates fleets tend to happily gang on you. Loot has little to no values with the economy so filled with huge stacks. Shortages take much longer to reach and are often less profitable.

So yeah the games is much more interesting, and it's smoother in the sense that you don't gain a lot of power too easily, I feel it is harder overall.

(I don't know about the loot having no value; while there's a lot more stuff all around, the prices are still where they ought to be. There's more disruptions, but that just means more opportunities to exploit.)

I do see what you mean, though - I think what I was trying to get at is the difficulty curve for "figure out how to work with sensors" isn't super high.

You're definitely right about expanded battles, though - they're not a reliable way to make the early game easier; ends up being more an opportunity to take advantage of.


Show sensor range, the fourth one.

Ah - that shouldn't be there. There was a hud overlay at one point but it was totally not useful at all and got junked, except apparently for the control option.

That I did, but SO is very costly before a few levels in tech. (but it so great in a Lasher!!!!)

Yeah, it's costly. Still, putting it on right away *definitely* can work - I'm not sure whether it's outright better than non-SO, though. It's great for pursuits or making sure you nab the kills in joint battles, but can get more expensive and there's a lot less room for error, even if "error" just means missing on an opportunity to deal damage.


Another reason why the game felt so hard at the beginning is probably because of the Wolf. It's quite a glass cannon and the front shield coupled to its long profile make it so vulnerable to flanking. I personally switched to a Lasher with safety override and unstable injector. Strapped two annihilators, a truckload of machine guns and yelled "RAMMING SPEED!" at every targets. It's brutally efficient, even destroyers are food for a dakka-lasher.

Oh, nice! So SO is there just for speed, right? Seems like flux-wise it'd be fine without it. I love strapping annihilators onto just about any ship, though.


I haven't fully understood all the sensor mechanics yet, but the cat and mouse games are already a blast. A pirate fleet tried to jump me and I dodged into a patrol which chased them over the horizon and left me laughing :) I thought it might be helpful if hovering the cursor over the TRIPAD sensor range indicator would show a circle of the same? The pure numbers seem very abstract.

Yeah, maybe. The numbers are mostly there to be compared to each other. I mean, they represent those ranges given an "average" other fleet, which you're unlikely to encounter at any given time. In practice, the actual ranges will be higher or lower. For judging exact ranges, the "sensor pings" have that job. The numbers in the tooltip are more to let you know that hey, you're in terrain and it's working correctly, etc.

e/ Oh and I forgot to mention, my girlfriend told me to tell you that the star coronas are really beautiful, Alex ;D

To be honest, I'm pretty partial to how those turned out, myself :)

The first couple times I got bushwhacked but I'm learning quickly. One odd thing is the fighter (torpedo bomber) ai when joining in a fight. They tend to linger and not do much and not move as they get shot unless they can actively shoot something. Two of three Tridents had already expended ammo but there was a carrier on the field. Will turn into a bug report if I can document more, just thought I'd bring it up for you/others to be aware of.

Hmm - noted, I'll have to take a look. More info (and a bug report) would indeed help.

Two "watercooler" moments already: one was joining my first big battle in my little lonely wolf and just seeing a ton of ships already in the middle of combat. Great experience, even if I barely got anything for helping out. (Newbie trap: joining battles and spending more on supplies than you earned for helping)

Second was new mechanics, decided to plant a comm sniffer. Lingered out of range of anything, killed transponder, went dark and crawled in, planted the sniffer, eyeing up every ship as it slowly crawled past, sensor range just not quite hitting me. Finally finish up, just as a patrol swings my way. Moving in the opposite direction from him so he loses me, then he does an active sensor burst. I panic and hit the emergency burn, he does the same, I just outrace him and turn away and hit go dark as he flies by, not noticing me. Slowly crawl back to the station, barely remembering to turn my transponder on before I get there. Great experience, loved every second, and entirely from new mechanics.

GREAT JOB ALEX!!

Thank you for sharing that! It's really neat to see one of the core goals of a lot of these mechanics - making purely campaign-level gameplay actually fun by itself - coming to fruition.



They seem to be guided for the 1st few ms?

That's news to me :)


I feel that a patrol's reaction to transponder off should strongly depend on where it happens. Right next to a market - proabably a smuggler, definitely needs to be pursued. Somewhere in the system - will probably investigate, but will give up if it can't catch up quickly. Somewhere in hyperspace outside of faction's space - will probably be ignored unless there's a reason to do otherwise.

Also, it should depend on the fleet's size. A couple unidentified frigates is no huge deal. An unidentified large fleet could be an invasion force trying to sneak in for a surprise attack and should be vigorously investigated by patrols.

Good points; made a note to take a look for the .7.1a release.


I would really like a way to station-keep like the AIs do orbiting planets/stations. Maybe holding the mouse button down for a couple seconds or ctrl-click? Have it work in the map-view, too, so you can drift in an asteroid belt or ring system.

Made a note; will take a look.


Is there no experience gained from completing missions? Not even normal trade experience (assuming that's still in; thus far, the only 'trading' I've done are the courier contracts)? Just wondering, because I've completed several missions and turned a profit on each, and have gained a grand total of 0 experience towards the next level.

Also, some missions feel like they have extremely tight time limits; I'm getting the feeling that it's usually not worth bothering with 10-day missions if the delivery point isn't in the same system, at least not early on.

They don't. Haven't considered this, actually - I'll give it a bit of thought. Seems like a good idea on the surface.

As far as tight time limits: those missions tend to have higher rewards. For example, you might make upwards of 40k for a delivery of 10 units of harvested organs; well worth any emergency burns you have to do to make it on time.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: LazyWizard on November 19, 2015, 05:18:12 PM
  • SettingsAPI
    • List<String> getAllVariantIds();
It looks like this was removed between the WIP API and the final release. Was this accidental, or were there unexpected problems with this method?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 19, 2015, 05:18:17 PM
Just had an idea about the sensor range sudden pirate newbie trap. How about if there are orbital installations which increase the sensor profile of enemy ships in a radius around them? So not a sensor phalanx proper, more like an echo beacon. Place some in the starting area and pirates/pathers nearby wont surprise the player.

Later on they could be sabotaged by pirates or even the player himself.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 19, 2015, 05:22:23 PM
Was probably present in the previous version, but only just noticed it:

Why do mothballed fighter wings have a blue background to their CR bar, yet other ships when mothballed have a red CR bar background?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Unfolder on November 19, 2015, 05:30:10 PM
I just played through Undertale and I was like, I can't play video games anymore they're too intense, seriously i can't invest any more emotion or energy in video games, the only exception might be Starsector thank god it's never gonna be releasFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 05:35:48 PM
  • SettingsAPI
    • List<String> getAllVariantIds();
It looks like this was removed between the WIP API and the final release. Was this accidental, or were there unexpected problems with this method?

I still see it both in my code and in the javadoc. Wonder what's going on?

Just had an idea about the sensor range sudden pirate newbie trap. How about if there are orbital installations which increase the sensor profile of enemy ships in a radius around them? So not a sensor phalanx proper, more like an echo beacon. Place some in the starting area and pirates/pathers nearby wont surprise the player.

Later on they could be sabotaged by pirates or even the player himself.

Hmm. It's a neat concept (somewhat related, been thinking about nav buoys/sensor arrays in campaign) but is getting caught by pirates right next to Corvus really the problem? It seems to happen more when you're going somewhere, i.e. from Corvus to Barad, or Corvus to the jumppoint, etc.


Why do mothballed fighter wings have a blue background to their CR bar, yet other ships when mothballed have a red CR bar background?

IIRC because they don't suffer malfunctions so low CR isn't the same kind of critical issue.

I just played through Undertale and I was like, I can't play video games anymore they're too intense, seriously i can't invest any more emotion or energy in video games, the only exception might be Starsector thank god it's never gonna be releasFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

Please accept my insincere apologies :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on November 19, 2015, 05:43:17 PM
i think droppable sensor beacons you could load on tugs or other similar ships might be neat; you could for instance put one out near barad or something, then hide in the belt and still receive a reasonable sensor picture while being relatively difficult to detect, with the downside of them being relatively immobile, you'd have to defend them against anyone who can see them, and of course the cost.

in fact, a wide variety of stratmap-deployable structures might be very cool, but sensor/nav buoys seem like a good place to start.

the sky is the limit with the sensor system, all kinds of new hullmods, new shiptypes can tie into it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: LazyWizard on November 19, 2015, 05:43:34 PM
  • SettingsAPI
    • List<String> getAllVariantIds();

It looks like this was removed between the WIP API and the final release. Was this accidental, or were there unexpected problems with this method?

I still see it both in my code and in the javadoc. Wonder what's going on?

Never mind, I see what I did wrong. Standard PEBKAC error.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 19, 2015, 05:44:52 PM
(I don't know about the loot having no value; while there's a lot more stuff all around, the prices are still where they ought to be. There's more disruptions, but that just means more opportunities to exploit.)
Well I definitively see a huge difference compared to 0.65: Stacks in the hundred of thousands of Rations, Metal or Organics, even remote markets have 25K of food available...

Anyway, enough raining on your parade: the game's way better than before and I can't wait to put those new toys to use with Seeker and Scy ^__^
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: MShadowy on November 19, 2015, 05:47:40 PM
I don't really have much to add.  It's so good.  Just so good.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Aklyon on November 19, 2015, 05:56:17 PM
Do bigger sizes of ships add more sensor strength, or do you just want more ships?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 19, 2015, 05:58:26 PM
Wow, the goods procurement missions can give serious money!

50 Harvested Organs for 250k +160k bonus for delivery within 30 days.

As they only cost ~900/unit, that's ~800% markup!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 19, 2015, 06:08:20 PM
Often they make no sense too. Why is somebody paying me to deliver 50 fuel at 300 credits each when there is 800 fuel available for 50 each on the open market where they are? Just go on space amazon and order some.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Unfolder on November 19, 2015, 06:14:52 PM
Just go on space amazon and order some.

the problem is in SS space amazon is literal, there are marauding space amazonians who sell fuel on the side
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 06:16:19 PM
Well I definitively see a huge difference compared to 0.65: Stacks in the hundred of thousands of Rations, Metal or Organics, even remote markets have 25K of food available...

I just mean that having tons of stuff available for purchase doesn't automatically make it cheap. Like, there can be 10k machinery for sale and you can still offload your machinery at a good price.

Often they make no sense too. Why is somebody paying me to deliver 50 fuel at 300 credits each when there is 800 fuel available for 50 each on the open market where they are? Just go on space amazon and order some.

Erm, if that happens it's a bug. It's not supposed to offer delivery missions of a commodity to a place that has that commodity on its own market or nearby. Tested it, too. Maybe you're seeing a mission to deliver fuel offered *at* a market that has fuel, but the destination is a different market?

Do bigger sizes of ships add more sensor strength, or do you just want more ships?

Take a look at the tooltip and F1 to expand it - briefly, yes, bigger sizes add more strength and also more profile. Civ ships add more profile and less strength.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 19, 2015, 06:26:34 PM
Quote
Erm, if that happens it's a bug. It's not supposed to offer delivery missions of a commodity to a place that has that commodity on its own market or nearby. Tested it, too. Maybe you're seeing a mission to deliver fuel offered *at* a market that has fuel, but the destination is a different market?

Could be something wrong with it, because I see quite a lot of missions for fuel delivery, and there can't be that many markets that don't have any fuel in their neighbourhood, can there?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 06:33:24 PM
Stupid question: are you sure it's fuel and not harvested organs? The icons look kind of similar, but I'm hardly seeing any fuel procurement missions on my end, but do see a bunch of organ ones. Because what you're saying makes sense, there shouldn't be that many places without any fuel nearby.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: David on November 19, 2015, 06:35:33 PM
Anyway, I'm just this second starting a new campaign (I'm home now) and before I do anything else I have to say: I love the new portraits, great work David! They're so much cleaner than the old ones.

(Thanks!)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 19, 2015, 06:40:11 PM
Anyway, I'm just this second starting a new campaign (I'm home now) and before I do anything else I have to say: I love the new portraits, great work David! They're so much cleaner than the old ones.

(Thanks!)
I love the new TT portrait
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on November 19, 2015, 06:42:26 PM
I'm sure it was fuel, because I remember using up too much of it to complete a contract and not having enough to fly back.

However I can't see any fuel contracts any more. I'll keep an eye on it and if a lot of them suddenly pop up like that again I'll check if there is actually no fuel in the destination markets (and backup the save)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 19, 2015, 06:51:18 PM
2 Enforcers, 80k in the bank, very close to the "game becomes unloseable" threshold........and then I went after a 45k bounty.
Should have been a walk in the park, except for a 2nd 45k bounty that spawned right next to it! Oops.

Not enough character level-ups to make my enforcers god-like quite yet, and too prideful to run away.
2 vs 15 isn't good odds, but might have been winnable..... if not for those damn pirate Wolfs being kitted out with Emp + mining blasters - for such primitive tech, they counter Enforcers remarkably well!

RIP fleet. RIP game.
Restart No. 5!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 19, 2015, 06:57:22 PM
Ah! The sensor mechanics are incredibly fun! I got caught once with my transponder down by a Heg patrol before I learned to quickly double tap it to turn it on/off. Thing I just discovered: active sensor bursts from inside of Nebulae let you see farther than you are seen! Still a couple thousand, but its really interesting...

So far no problems - playing a bounty hunter and most of the fleets around Barad are lone frigates, which are easy prey to a Wolf with a Heavy Blaster. Not using SO - the Wolf has enough mobility with its system to jump away and vent frequently, so its not needed.

I've joined one big fight that was raging in hyperspace. I only got a little bit of cash/loot for it, but I double leveled (4 -> 6). Is the experienced based on the battle size or the number of ships I popped? I got a surprising number of kills.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Aklyon on November 19, 2015, 07:08:29 PM
I would not trust that aggresive captain I hired with my wolf, now that I figured out how you hire them. But a lasher? He's pretty effective in it when he isn't taking heavy damage!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on November 19, 2015, 07:44:46 PM
Those Luddic Path enemies were surprisingly tough. The Luddic Cerberus ended up doing some damage to my Lasher before I took it out.

Also the new sensor stuff is pretty great when you start getting used to it. Overall great update.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 07:48:36 PM
I'm sure it was fuel, because I remember using up too much of it to complete a contract and not having enough to fly back.

However I can't see any fuel contracts any more. I'll keep an eye on it and if a lot of them suddenly pop up like that again I'll check if there is actually no fuel in the destination markets (and backup the save)

Thank you!

2 Enforcers, 80k in the bank, very close to the "game becomes unloseable" threshold........

I wouldn't be so sure, the endgame isn't quite what it used to be :)

Ah! The sensor mechanics are incredibly fun! I got caught once with my transponder down by a Heg patrol before I learned to quickly double tap it to turn it on/off. Thing I just discovered: active sensor bursts from inside of Nebulae let you see farther than you are seen! Still a couple thousand, but its really interesting...

Oh, nice! There seem to be some neat mechanical interactions there.

I've joined one big fight that was raging in hyperspace. I only got a little bit of cash/loot for it, but I double leveled (4 -> 6). Is the experienced based on the battle size or the number of ships I popped? I got a surprising number of kills.

Both are based on the hull damage you've dealt, but XP is also modified by enemy officer level. What you're describing probably means you took out a bunch of ships with officers.

I would not trust that aggresive captain I hired with my wolf, now that I figured out how you hire them. But a lasher? He's pretty effective in it when he isn't taking heavy damage!

Sounds prudent :)


I don't really have much to add.  It's so good.  Just so good.

:D

Those Luddic Path enemies were surprisingly tough. The Luddic Cerberus ended up doing some damage to my Lasher before I took it out.

(That Cerberus loadout - I'm really happy with it in terms of how effective it is. If you can board one, the SO on it is built-in and so costs no OP, which is a pretty nice bonus.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: BHunterSEAL on November 19, 2015, 07:59:51 PM
Very impressed with 0.7a so far, although that could be said for pretty much every release I've seen--can't believe I've been playing this for almost four years now.

It'll take some time to get used to, just like supply / CR attrition, but the cat-and-mouse dynamic of detection grants the campaign layer an element of tactical nuance it had previously lacked. It's a creative, unique system with no easy comparison to other games, but the mechanic actually feels grounded in realism. There's a clear modern warfare analogue in managing EMCON tradeoffs--in games like Jane's Fleet Command, Modern Air Power and CMANO, balancing the need for detection with the need to stay undetected is crucial for success.

Building on this, since detection is now a key game mechanic, it'd be helpful to have more options for enhancing sensor range / effectiveness. Probably easily modded-in, but I like the idea of a new utility ship functioning as a space-AWACS. More importantly, with the removal of the burn-boosting skills, larger/slower fleets seem like they get 'bounced' constantly--one solution would be increased sensor efficacy for fleets with fighters, simulating radar pickets, CAPs, etc. Heck, that could even be a new ability for the player--toggling fighter stances to trade increased fuel / CR burn for greater detection range.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 19, 2015, 08:35:06 PM
...

Those Luddic Path enemies were surprisingly tough. The Luddic Cerberus ended up doing some damage to my Lasher before I took it out.

(That Cerberus loadout - I'm really happy with it in terms of how effective it is. If you can board one, the SO on it is built-in and so costs no OP, which is a pretty nice bonus.)

Drooool.

And also, the paint jobs on the 14th Battlefleet are amazing. I want those ships so bad - the stat boosts help, but its really about having an Eagle with badass stripes.


Also: while I haven't put SO on a wolf, it is absolutely amazing on A class Hounds! I have it without an officer atm, just as a flanking buddy, and it just dances around blasting with that chaingun. It helps that they have a naturally long combat timer as well.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Xanderzoo on November 19, 2015, 08:36:10 PM
I just wanted to say that I love the update. :)

There is one weird thing I noticed: I got a mission to deliver 50 fuel to the station I was already in. The station had 50 fuel in its black market so I just bought its fuel, left and fulfilled the mission. This just seems like something you probably shouldn't be able to do.  :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TheDTYP on November 19, 2015, 09:02:52 PM
"UUUUUUUGH ALEX WHEN IS THE NEXT UPDATE?"
Naw in all seriousness, super PO'd I'm on the road and can't play the update yet. I saw a YouTube video of it and it looks SO FUN
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 09:18:56 PM
Hotfix is up, see OP for details.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 09:24:16 PM
Also: while I haven't put SO on a wolf, it is absolutely amazing on A class Hounds! I have it without an officer atm, just as a flanking buddy, and it just dances around blasting with that chaingun. It helps that they have a naturally long combat timer as well.

Anything that gives the Hound more of a chance to shine is good in my book!

There is one weird thing I noticed: I got a mission to deliver 50 fuel to the station I was already in. The station had 50 fuel in its black market so I just bought its fuel, left and fulfilled the mission. This just seems like something you probably shouldn't be able to do.  :P

Thanks - yeah, that shouldn't happen. Made a note; will look into it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cyan Leader on November 19, 2015, 09:36:11 PM
Is the hotfix save compatible?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: JT on November 19, 2015, 09:37:34 PM
Hooray, another JT post where he whinges about a new release!

...Naw, actually, I'm loving it so far. This took the atmosphere up another notch. Bam! ;-)

I did find something that strikes me as a bit odd: if I get legitimately shaken down for running with my transponder off, other fleets from the same faction will still come crawling in and also yell at me for having my transponder off (more accurately, berating me that I can't get away with just turning it back on).  I wouldn't really mind if only the pilot herself was upset, but it double-dings on the faction reputation too.  There definitely needs to be an immediate cancellation of an interception for all inspection fleets, not just the one that caught up to you, when you comply with the first inspection.

Also, since the only reason my transponder was off was because I had chosen to go dark and didn't realise it wasn't back on again, could I suggest some sort of positive feedback on the screen (even just a text label above the skillbar like "TRANSPONDER OFF")?  Currently the only feedback that you have it off is technically inverse feedback: it removes the halo that would ordinarily be around the transponder icon.  Given that running with it off is more "abnormal" than running with it on, there needs to be a positive indication that you're treading in hot water -- otherwise it could be a potential newbie scarer-offer.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on November 19, 2015, 10:07:01 PM
Here's my jumbly impressions:

NEW CAPTAIN IMAGES!  :D New ships look great, as well as the redone art. Love the new weapon art, and hammers are pretty sweet. LOVE the XIV ships. Killer look.

Hound is a really good starting ship. Me likey

Man this hard. Mostly just getting used to the new stuff, though. Making dumb mistakes.

I think I found a bug? I captured a ship and got a free pirate captain. Presumably if I de-assign it'll go away, but I'm not throwing away free stuff to find out, haha.

I also saw a wolf escape, but it was facing the wrong way and shot way down across the map. Not sure what happened.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 10:22:31 PM
Building on this, since detection is now a key game mechanic, it'd be helpful to have more options for enhancing sensor range / effectiveness. Probably easily modded-in, but I like the idea of a new utility ship functioning as a space-AWACS.

David may or may not have brought up the very same idea a couple of days ago :)

More importantly, with the removal of the burn-boosting skills, larger/slower fleets seem like they get 'bounced' constantly--one solution would be increased sensor efficacy for fleets with fighters, simulating radar pickets, CAPs, etc. Heck, that could even be a new ability for the player--toggling fighter stances to trade increased fuel / CR burn for greater detection range.

Huh, neat idea re: CAPs, possibly as an ability. What do you mean by "bounced"?


Is the hotfix save compatible?

Yep.


...Naw, actually, I'm loving it so far. This took the atmosphere up another notch. Bam! ;-)

:)


I did find something that strikes me as a bit odd: if I get legitimately shaken down for running with my transponder off, other fleets from the same faction will still come crawling in and also yell at me for having my transponder off (more accurately, berating me that I can't get away with just turning it back on).  I wouldn't really mind if only the pilot herself was upset, but it double-dings on the faction reputation too.  There definitely needs to be an immediate cancellation of an interception for all inspection fleets, not just the one that caught up to you, when you comply with the first inspection.

Is it possible they were different factions or some such? They're supposed to break off pursuit once one patrol catches up with you and you agree to the scan. Just tested it and it seems to work.


Also, since the only reason my transponder was off was because I had chosen to go dark and didn't realise it wasn't back on again, could I suggest some sort of positive feedback on the screen (even just a text label above the skillbar like "TRANSPONDER OFF")?  Currently the only feedback that you have it off is technically inverse feedback: it removes the halo that would ordinarily be around the transponder icon.  Given that running with it off is more "abnormal" than running with it on, there needs to be a positive indication that you're treading in hot water -- otherwise it could be a potential newbie scarer-offer.

Hmm. I'm not sure; I think it might just be a thing one needs to get used to keeping in mind. I don't know that I'd call turning it off abnormal; it entirely depends on what you're doing and what star system you're in. Heck, I've spent lots of time with it off bounty-hunting in Corvus. It's arguably more dangerous when the transponder is on!

I'm not necessarily opposed to some additional indication when it's off, though. Just needs to be something nice-looking and clean.


(The forum sensors the "peed" off word but not the b word above?  Curious.)

Thanks - fixed. It's a manually entered list.


I think I found a bug? I captured a ship and got a free pirate captain. Presumably if I de-assign it'll go away, but I'm not throwing away free stuff to find out, haha.

Oh dear. Yeah, I need to fix that up. If you unassign them they'll vanish for good, yes.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 19, 2015, 10:40:56 PM
Is hiring captains through the comm system the only way to get them? I was so excited when I noticed that my captured XIV (love these awesome skins BTW) Dominator had the commanding officer on-board already but I was sadden to see them forever disappear after removing them
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 10:43:17 PM
Is hiring captains through the comm system the only way to get them? I was so excited when I noticed that my captured XIV (love these awesome skins BTW) Dominator had the commanding officer on-board already but I was sadden to see them forever disappear after removing them

Yes, and that's a bug - sorry :) Maybe there'll be more ways in the future, but aiming for a "minimal viable" implementation of a lot of things in 0.7a. Get the breadth in first, then more depth if/as needed, where it makes sense.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 19, 2015, 10:54:16 PM
Is hiring captains through the comm system the only way to get them? I was so excited when I noticed that my captured XIV (love these awesome skins BTW) Dominator had the commanding officer on-board already but I was sadden to see them forever disappear after removing them

Yes, and that's a bug - sorry :) Maybe there'll be more ways in the future, but aiming for a "minimal viable" implementation of a lot of things in 0.7a. Get the breadth in first, then more depth if/as needed, where it makes sense.
Ah OK. Well as long as you're thinking about it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Adraius on November 19, 2015, 11:10:26 PM
Just had an idea about the sensor range sudden pirate newbie trap. How about if there are orbital installations which increase the sensor profile of enemy ships in a radius around them? So not a sensor phalanx proper, more like an echo beacon. Place some in the starting area and pirates/pathers nearby wont surprise the player.

Later on they could be sabotaged by pirates or even the player himself.

Hmm. It's a neat concept (somewhat related, been thinking about nav buoys/sensor arrays in campaign) but is getting caught by pirates right next to Corvus really the problem? It seems to happen more when you're going somewhere, i.e. from Corvus to Barad, or Corvus to the jumppoint, etc.
Seconding that this does in fact happen.  I've only put in a few hours so far, but within the first 45 minutes of play I got jumped by a sizable (destroyer+5ish frigates) pirate patrol literally right next to Jangala.  That was a quick save and reload for me. (not gonna try ironman until I have more experience lol)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Baqar79 on November 19, 2015, 11:12:21 PM
I noticed what I think is a small minor bug in RC7 & RC10.  

In the battle aftermath screen, there does not seem to be a numerical count of crew member casualties.  

On the positive side:

-I've noticed the graphics seem to have improved..I thought the textures on some of the planets had improved, but i'm not sure whether i'm imagining this.

-I've always choosen the bounty hunter route, since the wolf just seems to way outclass the other starting ships.  I like the fact the default loadout has been crippled a bit, since I never found myself having to upgrade at all for the wolf since the Phase Lance + 3 Tactical lasers would be good until it's final decomissioning in mid-late game.  Nice having to scrounge around for those all important weapons now :)

-Hyperspace looks awesome, planets looks beautiful, stars looking very nice.  I'm also loving the high tech terrorforming equipment and other massive space superstructures.  I'm now down for some good reading on the Lore of this universe...anyone know where I can read up on all of the details?

-Enjoying the sensor system mechanics and increased difficulty.  Only just got myself my second ship (hound(A) class, loving the elite versions of some of these small ships).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: JT on November 19, 2015, 11:14:37 PM
Is it possible they were different factions or some such? They're supposed to break off pursuit once one patrol catches up with you and you agree to the scan. Just tested it and it seems to work.

One was a large Hegemony Patrol and the other was a Hegemony Fast Picket.  It knocked my Hegemony rep down to -9 (from -5; -2 each) so they had to be from the same faction. =)

I'll try to reproduce it again if it ever comes up.  I did turn to meet the first patrol head on rather than allowing them to catch up, so maybe it was based on a condition that doesn't fire when wittingly intercepting the fleet?  Both fleets were in near proximity to one another, but not close enough to aid each other in battle, if that also helps in reproducing it.  They had fit on the same screen when zoomed in by two? three? notches on the scroll wheel.


...Terrorforming, heh.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Beobachter on November 19, 2015, 11:19:16 PM
Enjoying the update so far.

Quick question:
Reputation drops below hostile in all cases where an enemy ship is destroyed. Previous versions would stop at hostile so long as the player did not pursue/destroy beaten opponents. I didn't see this change in the patch notes, is it supposed to be the case? If so, should the player have some way of patching up relations?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2015, 11:20:54 PM
Seconding that this does in fact happen.  I've only put in a few hours so far, but within the first 45 minutes of play I got jumped by a sizable (destroyer+5ish frigates) pirate patrol literally right next to Jangala.  That was a quick save and reload for me. (not gonna try ironman until I have more experience lol)

Fair enough (and ouch), but I think the question is whether that's where the majority of those encounters happen. If not, then a bit of help around planets won't help much overall. Still, making it more of a safe zone might be a good idea regardless. I mean, it already is due to greater likelihood of patrols, but some daring pirates still... dare.


In the battle aftermath screen, there does not seem to be a numerical count of crew member casualties. 

It should say in the encounter dialog. Is there a specific set of circumstances where it doesn't?

-I've noticed the graphics seem to have improved..I thought the textures on some of the planets had improved, but i'm not sure whether i'm imagining this.

Pretty sure David went over these a couple of times, so I don't think you're imagining it :)


-I've always choosen the bounty hunter route, since the wolf just seems to way outclass the other starting ships.  I like the fact the default loadout has been crippled a bit, since I never found myself having to upgrade at all for the wolf since the Phase Lance + 3 Tactical lasers would until it's final decomissioning in mid-late game.  Nice having to scrounge around for those all important weapons now :)

Huh, interesting that you see it as a nerf. The idea for the change was to make a more versatile loadout - the Phase Lance + Tac Lasers was pretty well hard-countered by too many enemy loadouts. It's definitely a more specialized loadout, though, so in a sense going to a more versatile one gives more room to upgrade to something you prefer.

-Hyperspace looks awesome, planets looks beautiful, stars looking very nice.  I'm also loving the high tech terrorforming equipment and other massive space superstructures.  I'm now down for some good reading on the Lore of this universe...anyone know where I can read up on all of the details?

:) I'd say planet descriptions and tooltips are where you're going to get most of it. And the ship descriptions, too - especially the new ones.


One was a large Hegemony Patrol and the other was a Hegemony Fast Picket.  It knocked my Hegemony rep down to -9 (from -5; -2 each) so they had to be from the same faction. =)

I'll try to reproduce it again if it ever comes up.  I did turn to meet the first patrol head on rather than allowing them to catch up, so maybe it was based on a condition that doesn't fire when wittingly intercepting the fleet?  Both fleets were in near proximity to one another, but not close enough to aid each other in battle, if that also helps in reproducing it.  They had fit on the same screen when zoomed in by two? three? notches on the scroll wheel.

Ah - it's possible the other one was too far to get the message that the other fleet already scanned you. I may need to look at this again.


Quick question:
Reputation drops below hostile in all cases where an enemy ship is destroyed. Previous versions would stop at hostile so long as the player did not pursue/destroy beaten opponents. I didn't see this change in the patch notes, is it supposed to be the case? If so, should the player have some way of patching up relations?

Right; also vengeful doesn't mean what it did before. Unless I'm mistaken, you can get out of it by doing bounties (you won't get paid, though).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Baqar79 on November 20, 2015, 12:08:29 AM
Alright, I got myself over half beat-up but pulled in a victory:

(http://i.imgur.com/T1zI2li.png)

Clicking on "1. Pick through the salvage" brings up the following "Salvage operation" screen (which I cut).

I actually only lost a single crewman in this case (I had 30 crewman):
(http://i.imgur.com/ObEE4Va.png)

There doesn't seem to be any indication that I lost any crew during the battle (well on the first screen) :) .
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Madao on November 20, 2015, 12:38:12 AM
Downloading now, been checking every day and now it's here. Thank you Alex!  :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 20, 2015, 12:42:18 AM
just started a new campaign, trying to be a pirate this time. but there is no starting option for being a pirate (wasn't there one in the past? or maybe it was from a mod) and i don't see how i can improve my standing with pirates. even smugglers start at hostile, there are no missions available at the Hidden Pirate Base in Corvus, pirates never post bounties (as far as i'm aware) and i can not support pirate fleets against anyone due to them being hostile -- even if i'm also hostile to whoever it is they are fighting.

while trading could slowly improve relations, i find that my reputation still keeps dropping rather than going up, due to every small pirate fleet around trying to pick a fight with me. avoiding all of them is nigh on impossible, despite disabled transponder and use of abilities, and even if i retreat without destroying any pirate ships, reputation still goes down by a bit.

is there a way (or even an already updated mod) to increase rep with pirates that i'm missing? :/

edit: just saw that the Console Commands mod does in fact have a command to change reputation, just didn't find it at first, so that actually solves my problem already.
still, i'd like to know if there are ways to do it without having to cheat^^


aside from that problem though, i'm absolutely in love with this update! the sensor and ability mechanics really make campaign-level play so much more interesting, from what i've seen so far. and even seemingly small things like new sounds and ui elements manage to make something as trivial as spotting another fleet or activating an ability feel really satisfying all by itself! great work all around. =)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 20, 2015, 01:32:18 AM
Start from sneaking into a pirate base and smuggling something.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 20, 2015, 03:07:25 AM
Darn this NV and headache and stomachache and the symptom-that-must-not-be-named... I can't play SS for approx. 3 days...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: BHunterSEAL on November 20, 2015, 03:26:27 AM
More importantly, with the removal of the burn-boosting skills, larger/slower fleets seem like they get 'bounced' constantly--one solution would be increased sensor efficacy for fleets with fighters, simulating radar pickets, CAPs, etc. Heck, that could even be a new ability for the player--toggling fighter stances to trade increased fuel / CR burn for greater detection range.

Huh, neat idea re: CAPs, possibly as an ability. What do you mean by "bounced"?

It's a (rather dated--WWII era) air combat term for getting attacked suddenly and without warning--ie "bounced by a flight of '109s diving out of the sun." Or, in this case, encountering Pirate / Luddite frigate fleets that seem to come out of nowhere, leaving minimal time for stealth or running away. Makes sense when you're essentially on your own, but by the time you've got a few ships together it could be interesting to have some progression in this area, partially offsetting slower movement. In addition to helping the player rely less on avoidance abilities which disrupt travel and faction relationships, from a 'fluff' perspective I think patrol and screen options could fit nicely with the scope of the campaign, an abstraction for splitting or controlling multiple fleets.

I did find something that strikes me as a bit odd: if I get legitimately shaken down for running with my transponder off, other fleets from the same faction will still come crawling in and also yell at me for having my transponder off (more accurately, berating me that I can't get away with just turning it back on).  I wouldn't really mind if only the pilot herself was upset, but it double-dings on the faction reputation too.  There definitely needs to be an immediate cancellation of an interception for all inspection fleets, not just the one that caught up to you, when you comply with the first inspection.

Is it possible they were different factions or some such? They're supposed to break off pursuit once one patrol catches up with you and you agree to the scan. Just tested it and it seems to work.

I've seen this as well, definitely fleets from the same faction. The issue appears specific to cases where the player re-enables the transponder between being detected and intercepted by faction fleets. Merely having the transponder off results in only one interception.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 20, 2015, 03:58:29 AM
Ok, my profession is decided.
I'm a smuggler! ;D

- Took the trader start, and chose lobsters cargo.
- Jangala was buying for 950ea! (due to trade disruption). Sold on the blackmarket ofc!
- Took a 10 ton fuel mission to Aztlan/Coatl for 2.5k.
- Aztlan/Chicomoztoc for some reason had many thousands of Harvested Organs available.
- Used all of my 17k capital to buy 20xHarvested Organs (~850ea), and took 2 missions, One to Corvus/Asharu for ~40k, the Arcadia/Agreus for ~60k (if completed within 15 days).

Midway through Feb 25, 206, and I've got 107k in the bank! (oh, and a Hegemony patrol chasing me for running with no transponder ::))
Now all I need is a 100xOrgans contract, and I'm set for life  ;D

I can't imagine a better start!
Spoiler
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54785909/starfarer/awesome%20start.png)
[close]
Only downside, is that you don't appear to get any XP from missions - regardless of how lucrative they are  :(
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 20, 2015, 04:10:09 AM
Start from sneaking into a pirate base and smuggling something.
well, actually smuggling (aka using black market) at the pirate base would decrease my standing with them, not increase it. unless you mean open market trading with disabled transponder, which, yes, does work. but the reputation gains i get from that trade are set-off by every pirate around trying to get into a fight with me, as mentioned, even if i never take any hostile actions against them. this would not be an issue if there was a start option that begins the campaign with any non-hostile pirate reputation.

smuggling in non-pirate markets in systems with pirate presence (like Jangala or Asharu) seems to give a decent rep gain for pirates along with the rep hit for the market's faction, and has the advantage that patrols can protect you from your allies-to-be. but unless you have the money to trade at a loss just for rep changes (which you probably don't, at the start) this is very limited by available opportunities find goods to smuggle.

i just use console commands to make my own 'pirate start' now, so it's not really a problem. but i'd still like to see either a vanilla starting option that gives neutral or better standing with pirates (and poor standing with independents and possibly other factions to balance it out) or being able to take on missions with signficiant rep boosts from a currently hostile pirate market -- or both.^^

edit: apparently there are missions available at some hostile pirate markets. just not a lot of them, and for some reason the set of missions isn't the same between Corvus' Hidden Pirate Base and the Barad A planet, despite both the actual market and the available NPCs being the same. and i also just noticed for the first time that Barad B is its own seperate market, not linked with A and the Base, despite being right next to them.
so in this test run i currently have 0 missions available at the Base, 1 at A and 3 at B. all the available ships, goods and NPCs of the Base and A are identical. is this intentional?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 20, 2015, 05:23:29 AM
I missed that one
One thought I'd had is adding a new ability - call it "High Alert" - that would give you, say, +500 sensor range in exchange for increased maintenance costs. But you'd have to know how to utilize that, so, again, not exactly newbie-friendly.
Why having "High-Alert" similar to "Going Dark" but raising your sensor range instead? With half the speed and no CR recovery. And to keep Sensor ping useful, maybe you can make it more long ranged but only in a frontal cone?

Or maybe the opposite: High Alert would halve your speed and maneuverability in campaign, cost some CR and stop the recovery but would double your detection range in a 90 degrees forward cone, as a way to check your path. Ping being omni directional and longer ranged would still be more useful to find a ship gone dark.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Oathseeker on November 20, 2015, 05:41:22 AM
Wow, I actually have butterflies in my stumach as .7 is downloading :D
Alex, you are a god. You have done the impossible. You have made me feel again!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Ahne on November 20, 2015, 06:05:06 AM
Juhu! GZ ALEX AND TEAM! You did it!  :D

Lets download, so sad i don't have much time to test it right now :((((((((((((((((((((((((((


Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Histidine on November 20, 2015, 06:26:32 AM
Is it intentional that the Kite (A) loses the Civilian-grade Hull hullmod of the regular version, but the Buffalo (A) doesn't?
(I think it makes some sense, just checking)

EDIT: Also, why do Falcon/Heron and the battlecruisers no longer have a burn speed advantage over their fellows? That used to be among their selling points.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sabaton on November 20, 2015, 08:27:45 AM
I'm loving the updated ship sprites! Didn't knew how much better they could get until the update.

The battle group variants are also good, hoping to see more of that.

And good touch on leaving the defective variants to their old sprites, the contrast does wonders.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: David on November 20, 2015, 08:28:15 AM
-Hyperspace looks awesome, planets looks beautiful, stars looking very nice.  I'm also loving the high tech terrorforming equipment and other massive space superstructures.  I'm now down for some good reading on the Lore of this universe...anyone know where I can read up on all of the details?

Check out the standalone missions. They've all been rewritten (with descriptions that are probably too long, but I had fun!).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on November 20, 2015, 08:49:14 AM
Noticed Gemini is one of the few destroyers with burn 8 (most have 9).  Now Condor may be a more useful carrier if burn speed is a priority.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 20, 2015, 09:18:11 AM
Noticed Gemini is one of the few destroyers with burn 8 (most have 9).  Now Condor may be a more useful carrier if burn speed is a priority.
oh, i like that! Gemini stats felt pretty overpowered, especially given its described as a civilian ship. with them having less burn speed (which seems to be common among civilian ships now) and the subpar sensors, the Condor's role as the baseline military carrier should become much more solidified, even for player fleets. although the Gemini still retains more actual combat power.^^
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 20, 2015, 09:39:18 AM
Noticed Gemini is one of the few destroyers with burn 8 (most have 9).  Now Condor may be a more useful carrier if burn speed is a priority.

Yeah, RIP Heron. :(

Maybe burn 8 is intended to be the new burn 9.
Though with space being that much bigger, I'm not sure I want to be moving slower.

I suppose burn 8 being the new 'medium speed' makes the Dominator more attractive. (What was the Dominator's burn speed in 0.6.5?)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Aklyon on November 20, 2015, 10:15:58 AM
...the heron wasn't new?
I didn't recognize it when i saw one show up in a big heg v pirates fight.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 20, 2015, 10:47:40 AM
...the heron wasn't new?
I didn't recognize it when i saw one show up in a big heg v pirates fight.
it's newer than most ships, v0.65 i believe. but still been in for almost a year :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Serenitis on November 20, 2015, 11:08:45 AM
Grats on finishing it!
There's lots of very cool looking stuff in here. But....

I'm finding the whole thing to be a bit frustrating tbh.

The default detection range is pretty small so you can't see fleets until they're almost on top of you, and now that everything can be randomly faster than you whenever it decides it is really easy to get trapped by fleets which are both tougher than you AND faster than you.
Bam. Dead before you even start.
Yes. You can activate the burn thing as well, but you don't even know you need to before some random thing jumps out of the dark at you, plus this introduces a "twitch" element to the game which is a huge reason I like(d) SS - because it doesn't (didn't) have any of those.

It's the combination of really fast enemies which can make themselves faster, and almost zero ability for situational awareness which makes the game far to "hard" for me to consider it even remotely fun at the moment. :(
Maybe if the emergency burn boost thing had a limitation like "can't initiate combat for x amount of time after activating" to prevent fleets from using it to chase things instead of running away from things (like in an emergency) it would be a little less harsh?

Also, what are these random coloured arcs which bounce around the screen all the time? They're pretty distracting.

Sorry for being all negative and such.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: hurleybird on November 20, 2015, 11:19:17 AM
Every XIV hull gains a few ordinance points except for the Falcon, is that intended?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 20, 2015, 11:24:52 AM
Also, what are these random coloured arcs which bounce around the screen all the time? They're pretty distracting.

Sorry for being all negative and such.

I too would appreciate a thorough explanation of their meaning; they're obviously a sensor indication, but:
- Are they showing someone else detecting you, or you detecting someone else?
- Does their position indicating the extent of nearby fleet's sensor range? or is it just the direction that matters?

It's a good system, but the precise meaning isn't completely intuitive.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 20, 2015, 11:26:22 AM
Also, what are these random coloured arcs which bounce around the screen all the time? They're pretty distracting.
Those are the sensor ranges of other fleets
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 20, 2015, 11:40:36 AM
Wow, you can turn of the campaign UI with F11! That's so nice for enjoying scenic views :)

Like the hyperspace storms btw, it's is a interesting choice if you want to go through from the beginning to the end (not that I'm there yet, the game seems longer, thankfully).


Just had an idea about the sensor range sudden pirate newbie trap. How about if there are orbital installations which increase the sensor profile of enemy ships in a radius around them? So not a sensor phalanx proper, more like an echo beacon. Place some in the starting area and pirates/pathers nearby wont surprise the player.

Later on they could be sabotaged by pirates or even the player himself.

Hmm. It's a neat concept (somewhat related, been thinking about nav buoys/sensor arrays in campaign) but is getting caught by pirates right next to Corvus really the problem? It seems to happen more when you're going somewhere, i.e. from Corvus to Barad, or Corvus to the jumppoint, etc.


I was thinking of a (or several) big installation that can cover, like, half the system as long as it's active. Hell, simply let it cover the entire area in which a new player is supposed to learn the ropes.
The potential problem is that new players don't understand that they are being helped and overestimate their sensor range. That could be counteracted by clearly stating when a contact is identified with the help of the beacon, e.g. a little text on the target "beacon revealed".

Such a temporary mechanic is the only the thing I can think of to keep the sensors as (super!) interesting to more experienced players without being frustrating to newbies *shrug*



It's a good system, but the precise meaning isn't completely intuitive.

Mh, found it pretty intuitive...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SpacePoliticianAndaZealot on November 20, 2015, 11:57:51 AM
Also, what are these random coloured arcs which bounce around the screen all the time? They're pretty distracting.

Sorry for being all negative and such.

I too would appreciate a thorough explanation of their meaning; they're obviously a sensor indication, but:
- Are they showing someone else detecting you, or you detecting someone else?
- Does their position indicating the extent of nearby fleet's sensor range? or is it just the direction that matters?

It's a good system, but the precise meaning isn't completely intuitive.
Actually it's quite intuitive, at least I've picked it up without a hitch. Arcs are faction-coloured or gray for any minor faction.
If you have transponder on, you should see extended arcs bouncing around, if you have transponder off and you see smal pulsating ones coming from a patrol, it indicates it's sensor activity. If your ship is outside these arcs, you're good. Unless you aren't going dark and/or hiding in a [insert a tiny particle name here] ring and the patrol decides to do a ping. Then, you will beSTOP! YOU VIOLATED THE LAW!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Aklyon on November 20, 2015, 12:05:56 PM
STOP! YOU VIOLATED THE LAW!
HALT!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sordid on November 20, 2015, 12:09:29 PM
I have to say I'm very disappointed by your failure to fix the long-standing problems. Namely:

Enemy AI blatantly cheats. It maneuver in ways that are impossible for the player (i.e. ADADADAD spam that magically makes it dance through my shots). It has the ability to go out of map bounds. And it has inhumanly fast reactions and absolutely perfect precision. Phase ships disappear the moment you press the trigger, before your shot even goes off.

Friendly AI is completely ***. I have a big ship and a small ship. Literally all I need the small ship to do is to guard my flank against *** little frigates and fighters. What does it do? Half the time it charges into the middle of an enemy group and dies immediately, the other half it decides to pass in front of me as I'm firing, gets its engines shot up, and dies immediately.

Quick load only works on the map. Nowhere else. It doesn't work in battle, it doesn't work in dialog and inventory screens, i.e. exactly at the times when you want to use it. If I get caught by an enemy I can't afford to get caught by, I have to click through the encounter menu, enter battle, exit battle, then finally load the game. Manually, because quick load doesn't work in the main menu either. Yes, the loading times are very fast, but it's a pain in the ass nonetheless.

These are extremely serious problems that really need to be fixed ASAP. Especially the AI issues, especially the zig-zagging. Yes, I know I can do it too, but the AI has the reactions and precision of a computer, it's able to lead its shots perfectly no matter how I move. I, on the other hand, am flailing at a keyboard and mouse, trying to pay attention to three things at once, and trying lead my shots on a ship that's dodging and weaving on a screen that's a mess of shots and explosions and that sways with every movement of my ship and my mouse cursor. It's ridiculous.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: HELMUT on November 20, 2015, 12:19:21 PM
I think most of the issues you listed will go away as you'll improve while playing. Personally, there's nothing i saw the AI do that i couldn't reproduce. Same thing for my allies, with the right officer and loadout, they have yet to disappoint me.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 20, 2015, 12:23:26 PM
That's funny because Starsector is one of the few games where the AI has not a single artificial advantage. And the AI is the same for both sides, the only difference is that there is a player on one team...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 20, 2015, 12:28:32 PM
I have to say I'm very disappointed by your failure to fix the long-standing problems. Namely:

Enemy AI blatantly cheats. It maneuver in ways that are impossible for the player (i.e. ADADADAD spam that magically makes it dance through my shots). It has the ability to go out of map bounds. And it has inhumanly fast reactions and absolutely perfect precision. Phase ships disappear the moment you press the trigger, before your shot even goes off.


I think your are mistaken. The AI definitely does not cheat (or at least in this way) - the last time I dug into the code it doesn't even check for threats every frame (long ago it used randomly timed intervals, which is a nice way to add indeterminancy). However, ships, especially frigates, are very nimble - if I'm not dodging more than 50% of incoming shots, I'm doing something very wrong.

If you are having trouble hitting, either put things on autofire or invest in the accuracy/shot speed skills. The AI uses the same autofire plugin code as the player (which we know cause we can replace it if we want).

Quote
Friendly AI is completely ***. I have a big ship and a small ship. Literally all I need the small ship to do is to guard my flank against *** little frigates and fighters. What does it do? Half the time it charges into the middle of an enemy group and dies immediately, the other half it decides to pass in front of me as I'm firing, gets its engines shot up, and dies immediately.


Did you use an escort command? Or otherwise order it to do something? Sometimes the AI charges ahead (hopefully officer AI helps with that, but I haven't gotten first hand testing yet). I will often put an escort command on my main ship to keep us all bundled until things get heavy, and then I remove it to give them more maneuvering freedom.

I have noticed that my escorts pass in front of me more often when I'm high on flux. No idea if thats true or just what I'm thinking. Anyway, consider using your ally as cover instead of shooting them - they will often open up a long enough window for an aggressive vent, after which things are golden.

Quote
Quick load only works on the map. Nowhere else. It doesn't work in battle, it doesn't work in dialog and inventory screens, i.e. exactly at the times when you want to use it. If I get caught by an enemy I can't afford to get caught by, I have to click through the encounter menu, enter battle, exit battle, then finally load the game. Manually, because quick load doesn't work in the main menu either. Yes, the loading times are very fast, but it's a pain in the ass nonetheless.

Well, its more fun IMO without quickload, but thats a personal preference I can't blame you on. Should probably be able to do it from those screens for convenience, yes, but I wouldn't call that a serious problem.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thana on November 20, 2015, 12:37:12 PM
I must say that this update has made being a trader - at least in the beginning - considerably more interesting. Not that I played around much with the last version or that I've gotten far at all in this one yet, but that's my early impression. The missions are a good addition.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SpacePoliticianAndaZealot on November 20, 2015, 12:47:06 PM
Quote
Friendly AI is completely ***. I have a big ship and a small ship. Literally all I need the small ship to do is to guard my flank against *** little frigates and fighters. What does it do? Half the time it charges into the middle of an enemy group and dies immediately, the other half it decides to pass in front of me as I'm firing, gets its engines shot up, and dies immediately.


Did you use an escort command? Or otherwise order it to do something? Sometimes the AI charges ahead (hopefully officer AI helps with that, but I haven't gotten first hand testing yet). I will often put an escort command on my main ship to keep us all bundled until things get heavy, and then I remove it to give them more maneuvering freedom.

I have noticed that my escorts pass in front of me more often when I'm high on flux. No idea if thats true or just what I'm thinking. Anyway, consider using your ally as cover instead of shooting them - they will often open up a long enough window for an aggressive vent, after which things are golden.

I can confirm that. When I'm venting my Wolf, my other Wolf, which is escorting me, moves forward for the duration of the venting, if there are enemies in range.
On the other hand, things get a little screwy when the escortee is overloaded, but I really can't blame the AI for that. All I can do is (situations reversed) go berzerk on whoever overloaded my escort in hope of drawing its attention.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sordid on November 20, 2015, 12:49:19 PM
Did I ask for help or comment? No, I did not. I played this game for hundreds of hours, probably much longer than either of you. I know what I'm doing and I know what I'm seeing the AI do. I'm not asking for help from you, I'm offering help to the developer. If you want to respond in some way, "thank you for helping make the game better" would be appropriate.

I also forgot to mention the ship movement, both on the map and in battle. It needs to be way, way more responsive. The inertia is tuned way too high. Not only does this make the game frustrating for the player, even the AI can't handle it. I happened upon a battle I wanted to join, so I clicked it. Instead of, y'know, going to it, my fleet (well, my ship) went past it, in a complete circle around it, and only then came into contact with it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Spoorthuzad on November 20, 2015, 12:57:38 PM
thank you for helping make the game better?

However I didn't see those problems when I was playing but whatever
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Aklyon on November 20, 2015, 01:00:46 PM
You sound more annoyed than helpful about things I don't think I saw either (besides the quickload). A bit superior about your playtime as well, perhaps.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sordid on November 20, 2015, 01:03:21 PM
Yes, I am annoyed. It's the same damn thing every single damn time. I post my feedback for the dev and a whole bunch of people chine in with "nyah nyah, you just suck at the game", "nyah nyah, I didn't see these problems". Well the fact that they didn't see them is clear indication that it's them who need to learn more about the game. If there's one thing that can *** me off, it's when I get unsolicited lecturing from people who don't know what the hell they're talking about.

I apologize for my tone.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 20, 2015, 01:03:43 PM
I played this game for hundreds of hours, probably much longer than either of you.
not gonna comment on the rest, but i'm preeeeetty sure that there are many people here who have played the game for literally hundreds of hours already. and i'd guess that many of the modders have played the game and worked with the underlying code for thousands of hours.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on November 20, 2015, 01:05:24 PM
Did I ask for help or comment? No, I did not. I played this game for hundreds of hours, probably much longer than either of you. I know what I'm doing and I know what I'm seeing the AI do. I'm not asking for help from you, I'm offering help to the developer. If you want to respond in some way, "thank you for helping make the game better" would be appropriate.
Did you ask for a comment? Yes since you posted it on an open forum. If you don't like that, maybe internet is not a place for you.
Now I spent probably a couple thousands of hours modding this game, I can't imagine the time I sunk in it playing. I looked at the code and I'm telling you: you are wrong. No "maybe" no "but", wrong. The AI doesn't cheat.

On a personal note, I'm not about to politely reply "Thank you something" to someone starting his post with
I have to say I'm very disappointed by your failure to fix the long-standing problems.
Especially when I see neither a failure, nor any long standing problem of that sort. Point of view that seems shared by a lot of people here.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Euqocelbbog on November 20, 2015, 01:06:24 PM
Did I ask for help or comment? No, I did not. I played this game for hundreds of hours, probably much longer than either of you. I know what I'm doing and I know what I'm seeing the AI do. I'm not asking for help from you, I'm offering help to the developer. If you want to respond in some way, "thank you for helping make the game better" would be appropriate.

I also forgot to mention the ship movement, both on the map and in battle. It needs to be way, way more responsive. The inertia is tuned way too high. Not only does this make the game frustrating for the player, even the AI can't handle it. I happened upon a battle I wanted to join, so I clicked it. Instead of, y'know, going to it, my fleet (well, my ship) went past it, in a complete circle around it, and only then came into contact with it.

Lmao he mad
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Nanao-kun on November 20, 2015, 01:08:35 PM
Considering I do the exact same thing the AI does in battle to avoid getting hit, perhaps you need more practice?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sordid on November 20, 2015, 01:11:23 PM
I played this game for hundreds of hours, probably much longer than either of you.
not gonna comment on the rest, but i'm preeeeetty sure that there are many people here who have played the game for literally hundreds of hours already. and i'd guess that many of the modders have played the game and worked with the underlying code for thousands of hours.

Sure they have, but they're fans of the game and therefore blind to its faults. You see it with fans all the time, defending blatant faults to the hilt or even citing them as positive points. Console gamers claiming that 30 fps is better than 60 fps because it's more 'cinematic' is just the most prominent example, but every product under the sun has its own flavor of this, including this game.

I'm not a fan, and that makes my feedback far more valuable. The dev doesn't need to be told his game is good. He already knows that, he wouldn't put features into the game that he thought were bad. Disagreeing with negative feedback is a great way to pat one's own back, tribal mentality and all that, but it's not all that useful.

And yes, I'm aware this sounds hugely arrogant, and again, I am sorry for that. That doesn't make it any less true, though.

The AI doesn't cheat.

So it can't go out of bounds in battle, then? It doesn't have faster reactions than a human?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Spoorthuzad on November 20, 2015, 01:12:20 PM
Guys let's not try to *** off Sordid any more then is needed.

Alex will look at these issues and will undoubtly change things where needed.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 20, 2015, 01:18:57 PM
@Sordid: You got a PM.

Back to topic, please.



I would say that the AI has some advantages that are owed to its nature as an AI, just as the human player has advantages due to him or her being able to learn and improve and improvise. The game gives no side a systemic advantage, and that's what's important imo.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 20, 2015, 01:28:19 PM
@Sordid

The AI has superior reaction times.
The Human has superior strategy.

That's how every game with AI works.
If the AI had Human reactions, the game would be too easy.
If the AI had Human strategy, the Human race would be little more than a smudge upon the heel of our Artificially Intelligent overload's boot.

You're correct in regard to the AI cheating with its Out of Bounds maneuvers.
Though in the many thousands of battles I've played, it's probably had a meaningful impact upon the outcome 1 or fewer times.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 20, 2015, 01:30:00 PM
has any of you guys seen the Gryphon yet? haven't found it in any markets or fleets so far, and can't even get it in the Random Battle mission to take it for a test ride either q_q
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Spoorthuzad on November 20, 2015, 01:35:34 PM
has any of you guys seen the Gryphon yet? haven't found it in any markets or fleets so far, and can't even get it in the Random Battle mission to take it for a test ride either q_q

Yeah i've seen it accasionally in hegemony markets, Couldnt buy it though since my relation was too low
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on November 20, 2015, 01:38:23 PM
has any of you guys seen the Gryphon yet? haven't found it in any markets or fleets so far, and can't even get it in the Random Battle mission to take it for a test ride either q_q

Nope.

Seen a Kite(A); bought it, got it blown up in the its 1st engagement.  8)
Seen the anti-shield MIRV launcher.

That's about the only rare new stuff I've seen though :(
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Trylobot on November 20, 2015, 01:38:32 PM
WUBALUBADUBDUB!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 20, 2015, 01:43:28 PM
Yeah i've seen it accasionally in hegemony markets, Couldnt buy it though since my relation was too low
guess i'll have to get my pirate captain some rep with the Hegemony, then.. i want that ship!

WUBALUBADUBDUB!
are you sure?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Defertos on November 20, 2015, 02:06:48 PM
Few things:

The range on "Squall MLRS" seems to be either incorrect or bugged.
It shows the range as 2000, but when fired the missiles seem to "shut down" at 500 and then disappear completely at around 1000 or so range.
(Fired from Apogee with ECCM package just to mention it)

Are smuggling fines supposed to be -80 rep with the faction even from something small like 50 supplies ?.
(I don't remember the exact planet I bought them, but it only had supplies in sale at black market and none in the open if that matters)
Investigation, Guilty and bang. Went from +50 to -30 with independent.

Also since people seem to have issues with the sensors, adding 1 additional help tool tip that explains that the sensor "arc's" around your ship are from other fleets detecting you and that gray means either independent or transponder offline. (And a small note that pirates/smugglers normally fly with their transponders offline)

Named bounties with factions with "Inhospitable" or worse do really need some adjustment.
Doing a 50k bounty for no reward and measly +3 rep kinda gives the feeling that you just got cheated.
How about something like: getting 50% of the bounty and then +rep depending on the remaining 50% ?
(For example if +1 rep would be worth 2.5k,  50k bounty would be 25k money gained and +10 rep)

Other than the above it has been quite an enjoyable ride.

Ps. The hammer torpedo description is pure 10/10.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 20, 2015, 02:31:02 PM
Are smuggling fines supposed to be -80 rep with the faction even from something small like 50 supplies ?.
(I don't remember the exact planet I bought them, but it only had supplies in sale at black market and none in the open if that matters)
Investigation, Guilty and bang. Went from +50 to -30 with independent.
Depending on how much you smuggled in (I think it depends on how many credits worth sold to the Black Market), your suspicion level (as seen when you hover your mouse over the "Black Market" tab).  You can cover this up if you do enough Open Market or Military trades.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 20, 2015, 02:39:30 PM
Depending on how much you smuggled in (I think it depends on how many credits worth sold to the Black Market), your suspicion level (as seen when you hover your mouse over the "Black Market" tab).  You can cover this up if you do enough Open Market or Military trades.

By the way, I think this only works if you first do the black market trading and then the legal trading, without leaving the station in between.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 20, 2015, 02:50:41 PM
like i've seen others here mention, i also just had two Hegemony patrols bug me about my Transponder right after each other, with taking a rep hit from both. the first one ("Hegemony Fast Picket") told me to enable it, to which i agreed. i believe the 2nd fleet ("Hegemony Patrol") did not have me on their sensors at that moment, but i saw it speeding towards me with "looking for your fleet" shortly after, so it had probably spotted me with Active Sensor Burst while i still had my Transponder disabled.

so it actually makes sense that the 2nd fleet wasn't aware i had already been approached by another patrol, and instead assumed i had sneakily enabled the Transponder on my own to avoid being fined. and that's without them knowingly searching me twice as long as they can get away with it, hoping for some sweet smuggling fines. oh shielded cargo holds, how i love you. they are not getting anything from me, those corrupt jerks! ^^

still, doesn't feel great to be punished twice for one transgression, not to mention confusing when you don't realize what's going on.


also, question on the side: should i post bug reports / feedback like this in this thread here, or make a new thread in the Bug Reports & Support section (assuming there isn't a dedicated thread on the topic already)?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 03:10:25 PM
@Baqar79: Thanks, that helps - it should show casualties there, will take a look.

is there a way (or even an already updated mod) to increase rep with pirates that i'm missing? :/

Doing missions might help - you can take them on at non-pirate markets, and the targets don't have to be pirate markets, either. I'm not sure off the top of my head how much reputation you'll get that way, though. But a pirate start might not be a bad idea, hmm.

It's a (rather dated--WWII era) air combat term for getting attacked suddenly and without warning--ie "bounced by a flight of '109s diving out of the sun." Or, in this case, encountering Pirate / Luddite frigate fleets that seem to come out of nowhere, leaving minimal time for stealth or running away. Makes sense when you're essentially on your own, but by the time you've got a few ships together it could be interesting to have some progression in this area, partially offsetting slower movement. In addition to helping the player rely less on avoidance abilities which disrupt travel and faction relationships, from a 'fluff' perspective I think patrol and screen options could fit nicely with the scope of the campaign, an abstraction for splitting or controlling multiple fleets.

Ah, got it. Yeah, some abilities in this direction might be a good idea. Not quite sure when, but, right.

I've seen this as well, definitely fleets from the same faction. The issue appears specific to cases where the player re-enables the transponder between being detected and intercepted by faction fleets. Merely having the transponder off results in only one interception.

Thanks, that helps narrow it down - wrote it down, will take a look and fix it up.


One thought I'd had is adding a new ability - call it "High Alert" - that would give you, say, +500 sensor range in exchange for increased maintenance costs. But you'd have to know how to utilize that, so, again, not exactly newbie-friendly.
Why having "High-Alert" similar to "Going Dark" but raising your sensor range instead? With half the speed and no CR recovery. And to keep Sensor ping useful, maybe you can make it more long ranged but only in a frontal cone?

Or maybe the opposite: High Alert would halve your speed and maneuverability in campaign, cost some CR and stop the recovery but would double your detection range in a 90 degrees forward cone, as a way to check your path. Ping being omni directional and longer ranged would still be more useful to find a ship gone dark.

Hmm. "Forward cone" things might be awkward because you only have indirect control of that. Suspending CR recovery could work, though. Not sure reducing speed would be productive, since then it's a case of "sure, you see them, but you can't do anything about it".


Is it intentional that the Kite (A) loses the Civilian-grade Hull hullmod of the regular version, but the Buffalo (A) doesn't?
(I think it makes some sense, just checking)

Let's say it's intentional.

EDIT: Also, why do Falcon/Heron and the battlecruisers no longer have a burn speed advantage over their fellows? That used to be among their selling points.

Might look at it again, but there's less room between classes now so +1 burn would be pretty major, unlike before.

The default detection range is pretty small so you can't see fleets until they're almost on top of you, and now that everything can be randomly faster than you whenever it decides it is really easy to get trapped by fleets which are both tougher than you AND faster than you.
Bam. Dead before you even start.
Yes. You can activate the burn thing as well, but you don't even know you need to before some random thing jumps out of the dark at you, plus this introduces a "twitch" element to the game which is a huge reason I like(d) SS - because it doesn't (didn't) have any of those.

It's the combination of really fast enemies which can make themselves faster, and almost zero ability for situational awareness which makes the game far to "hard" for me to consider it even remotely fun at the moment. :(
Maybe if the emergency burn boost thing had a limitation like "can't initiate combat for x amount of time after activating" to prevent fleets from using it to chase things instead of running away from things (like in an emergency) it would be a little less harsh?

Yep, you're definitely not alone in struggling a bit with this. For now, I'd just say that it *is* something you can learn - it may feel unfair (which, honestly, seems like the biggest issue), but it's *actually not* and the vast majority of the times you're caught like that can be prevented. Still, thinking about ways to make this easier, it's not good for such a rough patch to be something you run into right away.


Also, what are these random coloured arcs which bounce around the screen all the time? They're pretty distracting.

I too would appreciate a thorough explanation of their meaning; they're obviously a sensor indication, but:
- Are they showing someone else detecting you, or you detecting someone else?
- Does their position indicating the extent of nearby fleet's sensor range? or is it just the direction that matters?

It's a good system, but the precise meaning isn't completely intuitive.

They're showing the extent of the sensor range of another fleet, when you're near the edge of it. It's useful for when you need to figure out how close you can be to another fleet before it sees you, how much distance you need to gain for it to lose sight of you, etc.

I was thinking of a (or several) big installation that can cover, like, half the system as long as it's active. Hell, simply let it cover the entire area in which a new player is supposed to learn the ropes.
The potential problem is that new players don't understand that they are being helped and overestimate their sensor range. That could be counteracted by clearly stating when a contact is identified with the help of the beacon, e.g. a little text on the target "beacon revealed".

Such a temporary mechanic is the only the thing I can think of to keep the sensors as (super!) interesting to more experienced players without being frustrating to newbies *shrug*

Thinking about this some more, I wonder if simply making "degraded engines" and/or "faulty power grid" double the sensor profile wouldn't do the job. Pirate ships have those hullmods, but most other ships don't, so it's tidy solution contained to the problem case. Assuming that gives enough of a detection range boost to make a difference, that is. If someone's heading towards you at a relative burn of 20, there's not much time to do anything even if you see them at the edge of the screen; the way to deal with it is to avoid that situation in the first place... but I suppose just having the edge in seeing the pirates first would do it. But that requires the transponder to be off, almost regardless of other considerations. I'll definitely try this out, though.


Enemy AI blatantly cheats. It maneuver in ways that are impossible for the player (i.e. ADADADAD spam that magically makes it dance through my shots). It has the ability to go out of map bounds. And it has inhumanly fast reactions and absolutely perfect precision. Phase ships disappear the moment you press the trigger, before your shot even goes off.

Friendly AI is completely ***. I have a big ship and a small ship. Literally all I need the small ship to do is to guard my flank against *** little frigates and fighters. What does it do? Half the time it charges into the middle of an enemy group and dies immediately, the other half it decides to pass in front of me as I'm firing, gets its engines shot up, and dies immediately.

These are extremely serious problems that really need to be fixed ASAP. Especially the AI issues, especially the zig-zagging. Yes, I know I can do it too, but the AI has the reactions and precision of a computer, it's able to lead its shots perfectly no matter how I move. I, on the other hand, am flailing at a keyboard and mouse, trying to pay attention to three things at once, and trying lead my shots on a ship that's dodging and weaving on a screen that's a mess of shots and explosions and that sways with every movement of my ship and my mouse cursor. It's ridiculous.

Hmm. The thing is, AI reactions are not instantaneous or even frame-perfect (though they're pretty fast), its precision isn't exact, and it doesn't always (or even often) lead perfectly. Its maneuvering to avoid shots is veeery far from being perfect, as well - most of the shots you perceive as being dodged by it, it's not even directly aware of.

As for going out of map bounds, it's a bit of an issue that only affects retreating ships, on both sides.

I mean, I can understand being frustrated - especially facing some of the faster frigates, such as the Pather Kite, or the smaller phase ships - but I don't think "AI cheating" is to blame here. I wouldn't personally call slightly-better-than-human reactions cheating, anyway - in most cases, it doesn't result in superior performance but instead barely makes up for not anticipating/planning ahead.

As far as the friendly AI, btw: it's exactly the same AI. I feel like in both cases, it's a question of learning how the systems work and making them work for you. Want an escort that's not aggressive, for example? Put a timid officer in charge. Etc.

That said, thanks for your feedback! It's definitely valuable seeing how someone perceives what's going on, coming from a different place. I mean, "how things work" isn't more important than "how they're perceived", and I'll certainly keep this in mind. I will say I don't assign the same priority to "fixing" this that you do, and am not even clear on what "fixing" it would mean, given what's going on. My apologies; we're just not on the same page here.

I have noticed that my escorts pass in front of me more often when I'm high on flux. No idea if thats true or just what I'm thinking.

IIRC that's right.


WUBALUBADUBDUB!

I'll... take this to be a good thing. Alright then, moving on.


The range on "Squall MLRS" seems to be either incorrect or bugged.
It shows the range as 2000, but when fired the missiles seem to "shut down" at 500 and then disappear completely at around 1000 or so range.
(Fired from Apogee with ECCM package just to mention it)

Thanks, noted - will take a look!

Are smuggling fines supposed to be -80 rep with the faction even from something small like 50 supplies ?.
(I don't remember the exact planet I bought them, but it only had supplies in sale at black market and none in the open if that matters)
Investigation, Guilty and bang. Went from +50 to -30 with independent.

It's a two-month long investigation, and you have an opportunity to influence the outcome by talking to the investigator.

That said, sounds like you got *super* unlucky - first with an investigation for something so trifling, and then with a guilty outcome. Really one in 10,000 or thereabouts. Would've probably cost you 10k credits or so to avoid the unpleasantness entirely.

Named bounties with factions with "Inhospitable" or worse do really need some adjustment.
Doing a 50k bounty for no reward and measly +3 rep kinda gives the feeling that you just got cheated.
How about something like: getting 50% of the bounty and then +rep depending on the remaining 50% ?
(For example if +1 rep would be worth 2.5k,  50k bounty would be 25k money gained and +10 rep)

Well, at that point, you're not doing it for the money but to get back in the faction's good graces. It's not supposed to be profitable.


Depending on how much you smuggled in (I think it depends on how many credits worth sold to the Black Market), your suspicion level (as seen when you hover your mouse over the "Black Market" tab).  You can cover this up if you do enough Open Market or Military trades.

By the way, I think this only works if you first do the black market trading and then the legal trading, without leaving the station in between.

Fairly sure the order doesn't matter, and completely sure that leaving the station in between doesn't matter.

still, doesn't feel great to be punished twice for one transgression, not to mention confusing when you don't realize what's going on.

Yep, I'll look into it.

also, question on the side: should i post bug reports / feedback like this in this thread here, or make a new thread in the Bug Reports & Support section (assuming there isn't a dedicated thread on the topic already)?

Probably better in the bug reports, unless you're not sure it's a bug, in which case it might belong in suggestions instead. But if it's fairly minor, here is fine too. So basically a judgment call :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Euqocelbbog on November 20, 2015, 03:22:28 PM
I feel like the casualty rates for boarding are a little crazy. It always seems like I lose at least twice as many marines as there are enemy crew in any boarding action and at times it's far higher. I just encountered a rather extreme example where I lost 28 marines boarding a Lasher with 2 crew.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Spoorthuzad on November 20, 2015, 03:24:12 PM
I feel like the casualty rates for boarding are a little crazy. It always seems like I lose at least twice as many marines as there are enemy crew in any boarding action and at times it's far higher. I just encountered a rather extreme example where I lost 28 marines boarding a Lasher with 2 crew.

I lost 7 marines with no enemy crew...
Completely agree with you here
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 03:27:45 PM
Noted. I'll take a look.

I mean, it's supposed to be expensive - a tradeoff for boarding being a sure thing - but not at that ratio, at least mostly not. The thing that's odd here is getting a Lasher with only 2 crew defending it, that shouldn't be possible and means something else messed up.

(Actually, getting 0 crew should *really* not be possible; "2 crew" is the fallback case when that happens. Yeah, definitely need to look into it.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on November 20, 2015, 03:51:58 PM
losing Marines in a boarding fight against dead crew? it's Space Pirates And Zombies all over again! Dx
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Troll on November 20, 2015, 03:52:41 PM
Quite frustrated as I keep getting harassed either by large fleets, solo high level pirate or small fleets full of tempests... Adding that I hate the wolf and am not good with the Hound, let's say the stat is very rough for me (be it normal or easy, but always ironman). Mostly suicide runs to get a feel of the new ships, officer AI and market positions up to now.
I'll try tomorrow with a more posed approach.
For now I can only say I really like the transponder and detection mechanics and will try to make better use of it. It just makes the start much harder as you either keep licking the boots of a Hegemony patrol hoping you'll be able to get a shot in (if it even catches a pirate), or keep searching for that elusive 1/2 ship fleet that is not too high tech...which was the rarest thing in the sector on my 2 last runs and less so for the very first.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 03:58:49 PM
@Troll: There's pretty much *always* going to be ~4 small pirate fleets in Corvus that have subpar ships, as long as there's a bounty going on. Hopping out into hyperspace now and again for a quick look might be worth it, too - and pirates will sometimes wait around the in-system jumppoint, so you're checking two places at once.

The only ones that might end up with Tempests are smugglers; you might want to stay away from those in general as they have better ships and higher-level officers than regular pirates.

Giving Safety Overrides a try might be worthwhile, too, if you haven't - it changes up the style of play, and it might be more to your liking than the base Wolf without it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 20, 2015, 04:03:00 PM
I feel like the casualty rates for boarding are a little crazy. It always seems like I lose at least twice as many marines as there are enemy crew in any boarding action and at times it's far higher. I just encountered a rather extreme example where I lost 28 marines boarding a Lasher with 2 crew.
Let's not forget that these are HIGHLY trained men and women in power armor!
I also noticed Alex that the amount of crew killed and the detected amount don't match up most of the time. The detected amount always seems highed than the kill count
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Troll on November 20, 2015, 04:07:13 PM
Thanks Alex, will try that. I indeed haven't tried SO, only looked at it and wondering how it would fare on destroyers.
Have always been a Hegemony fanboy, so whenever I could I would upgrade straight to a bulky fortress and quickly stop using frigates, which ends up with me having extremely low mileage with frigs. Though since the last build I saw a very intriguing frigate in the form of the Monitor, which may make me try to keep using them IF I can get my hands on it, and the Kite also seems like a fun swarm tactic oriented frigate (or rather, super fighter).

I also guess it makes starting with a bit of trading more interesting even for fully battle oriented players.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 20, 2015, 04:07:50 PM
I also noticed Alex that the amount of crew killed and the detected amount don't match up most of the time. The detected amount always seems highed than the kill count
It's ZOMBIES

Well , what does (A) variant stand for? Advanced?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 20, 2015, 04:13:16 PM
Well , what does (A) variant stand for? Advanced?
I might not know what the (A) stands for, but I certainly know that it's better.  I found a Hound (A) right off the bat after delivering some Drugs to Asharu on my way back at Jangala - picked that right up and sold my old Hound.  Damn, that thing is still with me in my playthrough.  It managed to survive a double-hit of Hammer with it's officer - I'm impressed. :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: FooF on November 20, 2015, 04:13:58 PM
I like the "degraded engines/faulty power grids add sensor profile" idea. Even if it only means you get that "there's something there" sensor icon, at least the pirates won't be a complete surprise. Of course, I imagine sensor hullmods that boost range or hide sensor profiles, dedicated support/utility ships that specialize in sensor intel/counter-intel, etc. are only a matter of time.

As an aside, what determines the sensor range/profile? Is it solely determined by fleet size or do individual hulls have their own sensor stats? I was thinking about some of the "science" ships out there (Apogee comes to mind) and how I could imagine them having more powerful sensors than your run-of-the-mill ship of the same size.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 20, 2015, 04:15:23 PM
I like the "degraded engines/faulty power grids add sensor profile" idea. Even if it only means you get that "there's something there" sensor icon, at least the pirates won't be a complete surprise. Of course, I imagine sensor hullmods that boost range or hide sensor profiles, dedicated support/utility ships that specialize in sensor intel/counter-intel, etc. are only a matter of time.

As an aside, what determines the sensor range/profile? Is it solely determined by fleet size or do individual hulls have their own sensor stats? I was thinking about some of the "science" ships out there (Apogee comes to mind) and how I could imagine them having more powerful sensors than your run-of-the-mill ship of the same size.
They (Apogee and the Omen) already do have enhanced sensors! It is a built in hull mod
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 04:18:14 PM
(A) stands for auxiliary, as in "militarized auxiliary". At least, as far as I understand it. David would know for sure, since he did all that :)

It managed to survive a double-hit of Hammer with it's officer - I'm impressed. :D

(I'm more impressed that something managed to hit a Hound with a Hammer at all, never mind twice.)


As an aside, what determines the sensor range/profile? Is it solely determined by fleet size or do individual hulls have their own sensor stats? I was thinking about some of the "science" ships out there (Apogee comes to mind) and how I could imagine them having more powerful sensors than your run-of-the-mill ship of the same size.

Each ship has a sensor strength and a sensor profile stat that's based on size and can be influenced by hullmods. The Apogee, indeed, has just such a built-in hullmod. So you're right on about that :)

(Ninja'ed...)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 20, 2015, 04:19:00 PM
Alex, can you add confirmation to Active sensor burst? You know... it's a risky option.
And some extra warning about pinging with transpoder off somehow.

It managed to survive a double-hit of Hammer with it's officer - I'm impressed. :D

(I'm more impressed that something managed to hit a Hound with a Hammer at all, never mind twice.)
Apparantly someone mastered gunnery implant :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 04:29:19 PM
Alex, can you add confirmation to Active sensor burst? You know... it's a risky option.
And some extra warning about pinging with transpoder off somehow.

Hmm. What makes ASB more worthy of a confirmation than "Go Dark" or "Emergency Burn"?

As far as a warning about doing it with the transponder off, I don't think that's needed. It's the sort of thing you learn very quickly by doing, and the penalty isn't even all that severe. There are lots of interactions between abilities, terrain, sensors/fleets, etc. Warning about all of them is not practical or even desirable. Learning/discovery is fun, and I daresay the "oh crap" moment when you do an ASB and see patrols burning for you is a good thing.

(You might ask what makes the transponder special, and it's a valid question. One of the reasons is that turning it on after piracy but with enemies still in sight will drop your reputation a lot, permanently. That's very severe and needs a confirmation. Also because it's easy to press "1" an extra time by accident when using a jumppoint, ahem. If we're being real here, that's half the reason it needs a double-tap.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 20, 2015, 04:41:31 PM
True... forgetting to turn it on before pinging feels terrible tho :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 04:45:56 PM
If it makes you reload, yeah. But if you have to deal with it? This is the kind of thing where iron mode (or self-imposed iron mode) can really add to the experience. A matter of taste, of course... I just find dealing with unexpected difficulties fun. And here, as a bonus, it's even entirely your own fault :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: pyg on November 20, 2015, 05:27:09 PM
I super skimmed the last four pages, even skimming Alex when it didn't apply to my interest so take this not seriously.

Re: .7a Awesome, awesome, awesome.  Much love to the devs and test team.  Flawless release on i386/32 linux as far as I can test.

Sensors:  I had the same learning curve as everyone else and then was tossed twenty years into the past playing WWII submarine simulators on Commodores and PCs.  Haven't tried it yet, but I have a raging fantasy of a pirate future.  Seriously takes me back to Silent Hunter/688... methinks this element could be extended as well.  IMO this is the new big thing for modders as well, keeping a fleet silent and it's opposite is very cool.  Extending range!... hang on I need to mop up.

SO: as Helmut, Megas, and others have postulated and reported, this is a fairly overpowered mod in skilled hands.  I've scaled Helmut's Lasher experience to an Eagle with outstanding results.  No problems IMO as I expect balance issues to be solved via mods first and foremost.

Point of this post (the complaint):  So I went into the mission board and since one of the missions seemed interesting I pressed 'e" to see the prices galacticaly. Since keybindings aren't locally configurable (which would be a good thing (but much love for the changes from .65.x(love that 'esc' backs out which is as it should be)))(lisp geeks rule!) I accepted the mission. So how do I figure out what missions I've committed to?  My expectation was to go back to the mission board to remind me.




Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: mendonca on November 20, 2015, 05:43:44 PM
pyg, you can find out from the Intel screen, check the 'missions' sub section.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: pyg on November 20, 2015, 05:47:07 PM
pyg, you can find out from the Intel screen, check the 'missions' sub section.
Oh yeah, I just did that and it worked... why did I ever wonder how it should be that way?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Baqar79 on November 20, 2015, 05:51:33 PM
Just a little bit of a complaint about transitioning into jump points.

There is a bit of a delay in which you can not move during the transition animation; however time continues on for other ships despite this. 

I was being chased by a rather large group of pirates, but despite outrunning them, they caught up during the transition from hyperspace->normal space, since during the animation they are free to move around and jump through the gate while my ships are being anchored until the jumping animation completes.

Either giving them the same delay or pausing the game during the animation would work.  It does keep things tense during a chase, but it's kind of like the monsters that chase you in your nightmares as a child:   You suddenly find your legs can no longer move, but meanwhile that monster approaches steadily closer and closer...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 05:54:19 PM
I was being chased by a rather large group of pirates, but despite outrunning them, they caught up during the transition from hyperspace->normal space, since during the animation they are free to move around and jump through the gate while my ships are being anchored until the jumping animation completes.

Either giving them the same delay or pausing the game during the animation would work.  It does keep things tense during a chase, but it's kind of like the monsters that chase you in your nightmares as a child:   You suddenly find your legs can no longer move, but meanwhile that monster approaches steadily closer and closer...

They're not supposed to be able to engage you during the transition. They may catch up and start their own transition, but they can't actually attack. There may be an interval where they can, while your fleet is moving towards the point but hasn't quite started the jump yet, but it should be very short unless the jumppoint is moving quickly. Is that what you ran into?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sordid on November 20, 2015, 06:01:16 PM
Hmm. The thing is, AI reactions are not instantaneous or even frame-perfect (though they're pretty fast), its precision isn't exact, and it doesn't always (or even often) lead perfectly. Its maneuvering to avoid shots is veeery far from being perfect, as well - most of the shots you perceive as being dodged by it, it's not even directly aware of.

I mean, I can understand being frustrated - especially facing some of the faster frigates, such as the Pather Kite, or the smaller phase ships - but I don't think "AI cheating" is to blame here. I wouldn't personally call slightly-better-than-human reactions cheating, anyway - in most cases, it doesn't result in superior performance but instead barely makes up for not anticipating/planning ahead.

Alright, so maybe there's a variation of a few frames, but it's nowhere near enough. Like I said, when fighting a phase ship, it will vanish as soon as you click, with inhumanly fast reaction time. I mean, look at this!
Spoiler
https://youtu.be/7Y_S-SCEphU
[close]

Not a single hit in that entire time, at point blank range, with guns that fire immediately! I'd be hard-pressed to react that quickly even in a 1-on-1 situation, let alone in a big battle where I have to pay attention to half a dozen different ships and all kinds of other stuff besides. Using my usual pulse lasers, which have a half-second charge-up time, at optimum range? Forget about it. It vanishes as soon as the shot starts charging, before it even goes off. That ship is invincible until it veeery sloooowly runs out of flux capacity. In that time you'll either be flanked by other enemy ships or, if you face them, by the phase ship itself. God help you if you have to fight more than one of these things.

It's the same thing with everything else. The AI has near-perfect timing for raising and dropping shields, firing missiles, teleporting, etc. That's to say nothing of thoroughly human fumbles, like forgetting to raise the shield while engaging an enemy or accidentally shooting an ally (which isn't helped by the fact that allies from other fleets have HUD markers in a very similar shade of orange to that of enemies, btw) or failing to notice a ship approaching from behind due to engaging a distant enemy and having the screen shifted all the way forward, which are things the AI just never does. I wouldn't mind it if elite military ships were piloted by a perfect AI, but a ship with novice crew and no officer? That doesn't seem right to me. On the whole it feels like I'm fighting a bunch of robots. Which I suppose is true, but I don't think it should feel that way.

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As for going out of map bounds, it's a bit of an issue that only affects retreating ships, on both sides.

It affects me in every single battle I fight. Because allied AI is so useless, I tend to go solo. Because I go solo, I kite a lot. Because I kite, enemy ships try to flank me and surround me. Because they try to flank me, I strafe to the side. Because I strafe to the side, I bump against the edge of the map. Because I can go no further, enemy ships are free to flank me by going out of bounds. Because they flank me by going out of bounds, I lose. There are no words for how infuriating this is. Not that going solo really has anything to do with that, that's just an observation based on my current playthrough. The same thing kept happening to me when I ran a full fleet in my previous playthrough in the previous version. The need to maneuver exists in almost any situation.

The fact that there even exists an arbitrary box that physically prevents my spaceship from moving through empty space is just mind-boggling to me. I get it, an infinite battlefield would be really difficult to do, so that's a no-go, but these edge cases really, really need to be handled better. Preferably in a way that doesn't involve bumping into them. I have no idea how your implementation works, but I'd probably center the battlefield on the player so that it's impossible to leave it. Any ships that stray far enough from the player are despawned and their fights auto-resolved. To prevent the battle from breaking up into several fights that drift apart from each other, the farther an allied ship is from the player, the more it prioritizes moving towards the player. I know you're never going to do that, but it's just a quick idea of how I'd handle it. A much easier solution would be to just limit the AI ships to the same rules as the player, or even better, prevent them from going anywhere near the edges of the map, reversing the situation.

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As far as the friendly AI, btw: it's exactly the same AI.

Yes, it is the same AI, and I bet you if the AI could speak, it would complain about other friendly ships passing through its firing arcs too. Maybe it shouldn't be the same AI? It seems entirely logical to me that the player's ship should be treated differently. When one AI ship does something frustrating to another AI ship, nobody cares, it's just AI. When it does it to the player, it makes the game less enjoyable. To my mind that's a problem.

This also relates to my previous point about AI ships having perfect awareness of what's going on around them. They can stop shooting to avoid hitting allies very reliably. Humans can only look at one thing at a time. Often I have to keep my eyes on the edge of the screen to see what that big cruiser is up to and only keep track of the little frigate I'm firing at out of the corner of my eye. When an AI ally passes in front of me in such a situation, there's no way I can notice it in time to avoid blasting it to bits.

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I feel like in both cases, it's a question of learning how the systems work and making them work for you. Want an escort that's not aggressive, for example? Put a timid officer in charge. Etc.

Not to be overly sarcastic here, but I haven't seen a "won't pass through your firing arcs while you're firing" among officer personality traits yet.

Quote
That said, thanks for your feedback! It's definitely valuable seeing how someone perceives what's going on, coming from a different place. I mean, "how things work" isn't more important than "how they're perceived", and I'll certainly keep this in mind. I will say I don't assign the same priority to "fixing" this that you do, and am not even clear on what "fixing" it would mean, given what's going on. My apologies; we're just not on the same page here.

You're welcome. As for not prioritizing fixing these things, I get it, fixing seemingly minor problems and polishing gameplay mechanics isn't the same kind of fun as adding brand new features, but I'd really hate to see this game go down the same path as Mount&Blade and a lot of other indies whose developers just kept adding rough features and never polishing them until they got bored and abandoned the projects, and the games ended up being clunky, disjointed messes. You're not falling into that trap too badly yet, but I'd really, really hate for that to happen to Starfarer.

Oh, and btw, one other thing that may have been mentioned already. Investigations into ties with other factions are just crazy. All I did was hunt some pirates for a Ludd bounty, then a bunch of investigations of my ties to them came up, and now everyone hates me for it, even factions that are on friendly terms with the Ludds. :(
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Hopelessnoob on November 20, 2015, 06:05:21 PM
I love this new update though I will admit I cheated to get some levels early on as starting out at level 1 for about the millionth time just gets old! I love the new officers and how you can have allies in battle it really makes it feel more epic on the occasion that I find a big battle or a big battle finds me but I am frequently annoyed by how empty the world feels at times. With such small sensor range everything feels empty.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on November 20, 2015, 06:13:11 PM
If it makes you reload, yeah. But if you have to deal with it? This is the kind of thing where iron mode (or self-imposed iron mode) can really add to the experience. A matter of taste, of course... I just find dealing with unexpected difficulties fun. And here, as a bonus, it's even entirely your own fault :P
True... I meant just that I feel stupid.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cosmitz on November 20, 2015, 06:16:02 PM
Oh my. I'm still on Fallout 4. Thankfully i have a month off in a few weeks. :) Can't wait to get my feet wet in 0.7.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Histidine on November 20, 2015, 06:18:27 PM
It affects me in every single battle I fight. Because allied AI is so useless, I tend to go solo. Because I go solo, I kite a lot. Because I kite, enemy ships try to flank me and surround me. Because they try to flank me, I strafe to the side. Because I strafe to the side, I bump against the edge of the map. Because I can go no further, enemy ships are free to flank me by going out of bounds.
I don't know if it's changed in 0.7, but in 0.65.2a not only do enemy ships not go out of bounds to any meaningful extent, if they're going to they turn around and fly back in at right angles to the map edge. This makes them almost harmless for several seconds while front shields and weapons are pointing away from you.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on November 20, 2015, 06:33:57 PM
Sordid, if you ever have to take stock of your situation in battle you can always press the Spacebar to pause or Tab to open the tactical view. Pause lets you change weapon groups, auto/un-auto weapon groups, and move the camera without hassle. The Tactical view lets you see everything not in the fog of war w/ information like CR%, Hull, and Flux.

EDIT: Also related to Phase Ships, giving them a delay on all but the very best ones could easily turn into the opposite problem, where you can easily exploit them by blasting them with a strike weapon, backing off, and repeating until they're dead. I've also caught phase ships unaware, and managed to damage them when they still had flux available. Maybe if phase ships had longer Overloads it wouldn't seem as bad fighting them.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Baqar79 on November 20, 2015, 06:34:34 PM
I was being chased by a rather large group of pirates, but despite outrunning them, they caught up during the transition from hyperspace->normal space, since during the animation they are free to move around and jump through the gate while my ships are being anchored until the jumping animation completes.

Either giving them the same delay or pausing the game during the animation would work.  It does keep things tense during a chase, but it's kind of like the monsters that chase you in your nightmares as a child:   You suddenly find your legs can no longer move, but meanwhile that monster approaches steadily closer and closer...

They're not supposed to be able to engage you during the transition. They may catch up and start their own transition, but they can't actually attack. There may be an interval where they can, while your fleet is moving towards the point but hasn't quite started the jump yet, but it should be very short unless the jumppoint is moving quickly. Is that what you ran into?

Sorry, I may not of explained it quite right. 

They can't engage my forces until after the transition, the problem is they can move towards you and catch up during the jump animation.  So if for example the pirates where chasing you at about 400 pixels away and you start a jump out of hyperspace; by the time you can finally move (after the jump animation), they are directly on top of you and so you have no opportunity to run away.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 20, 2015, 06:40:18 PM
@Sordid
Would you mind sharing what specific ways the allied AI is bad? It is the same AI as the enemy, so it benefits from all of the same reaction times, etc, so I find it to be quite competent. If you have been playing without them you might be surprised at how much better it has become over the years. Especially with officers giving them skills.

I agree that fighting phase ships can be frustrating, but the alternative where they mess up and take hits, is far worse. They would become essentially useless. Unfortunately the only thing to do with them is to wait them out; its very easy with other ships in the fleet, but it is boring. (This is what phase ships are good at - fighting 1 other ship. They don't do well when outnumbered.)

I run large fleets with escorts and don't have problems shooting allied ships. I typically have my turrets on autofire and my locked weapons under manual control. I'm not discounting your experience, but I just don't have the same problem, so I don't think anything needs to be done.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 06:45:10 PM
Alright, so maybe there's a variation of a few frames, but it's nowhere near enough. Like I said, when fighting a phase ship, it will vanish as soon as you click, with inhumanly fast reaction time. I mean, look at this!
Spoiler
https://youtu.be/7Y_S-SCEphU
[close]

I'm not going to say fighting phase ships 1v1 is the best experience ever. It's doable with the right tactics, though. Expecting to score hits with that approach isn't going to work, generally; if you could, phase ships would be useless in AI hands.

Quote
As for going out of map bounds, it's a bit of an issue that only affects retreating ships, on both sides.

It affects me in every single battle I fight.

This is the behavior I see near map bounds:
Spoiler
(http://giant.gfycat.com/ConsciousAngryHummingbird.gif)
[close]

Occasionally, there's some dipping beyond the boundary, but no more than what your ship can also do. I don't know what you're seeing.


Quote
As far as the friendly AI, btw: it's exactly the same AI.

Yes, it is the same AI, and I bet you if the AI could speak, it would complain about other friendly ships passing through its firing arcs too. Maybe it shouldn't be the same AI? It seems entirely logical to me that the player's ship should be treated differently. When one AI ship does something frustrating to another AI ship, nobody cares, it's just AI. When it does it to the player, it makes the game less enjoyable. To my mind that's a problem.

This also relates to my previous point about AI ships having perfect awareness of what's going on around them. They can stop shooting to avoid hitting allies very reliably. Humans can only look at one thing at a time. Often I have to keep my eyes on the edge of the screen to see what that big cruiser is up to and only keep track of the little frigate I'm firing at out of the corner of my eye. When an AI ally passes in front of me in such a situation, there's no way I can notice it in time to avoid blasting it to bits.

The thing is, literally no matter what the AI does (unless it does nothing at all), it's going to do something that's not to someone's liking at one time or another. That's just a reality. You can choose to get aggravated by it, or you can choose to treat it as something to figure out and work with. You might feel that these things in particular are major aggravations, and I certainly can't say that you're wrong - it's a subjective experience, and (in the least condescending way possible) I'm sure it's true for you.

What I can say is, given the situation, I'm pretty positive that "fixing" (in quotes because in my view, they mostly aren't problems) these things would create much bigger problems, from my subjective perspective. So, I'm not not fixing them because working on new features is more fun or whatnot. I actually enjoy working on AI a lot, and probably spend more time on it than is prudent, but I feel it's very important to a single-player game. We just don't see eye-to-eye on the specifics here, and I'm not sure that we can.

Regarding shooting allies: if you're continuing to fire without looking where you're firing, I have to say, that's entirely on you. You can put the guns on auto-fire, you can even pause the game while do it or while you look around, or you can stop firing for a second while you're not looking - which often isn't even a DPS loss, since it's generally limited by flux not time on target. The AI may be to blame for passing in front of you, but it isn't to blame for being shot.


Not to be overly sarcastic here, but I haven't seen a "won't pass through your firing arcs while you're firing" among officer personality traits yet.

"Timid" is pretty unlikely to do it.


Oh, and btw, one other thing that may have been mentioned already. Investigations into ties with other factions are just crazy. All I did was hunt some pirates for a Ludd bounty, then a bunch of investigations of my ties to them came up, and now everyone hates me for it, even factions that are on friendly terms with the Ludds. :(

Well, the point is to - at this point, in a rather heavy-handed way - force you to fight faction-level enemies in the late game. For the current implementation, "realism" wasn't a partcular concern, so I'd say it's working as intended :) (Side note: to actually hostile-level hate you for it, they'd all have had to have investigated you at least three times each, so it's not exactly as though you've just hunted a few bounties...)


Sorry, I may not of explained it quite right. 

They can't engage my forces until after the transition, the problem is they can move towards you and catch up during the jump animation.  So if for example the pirates where chasing you at about 400 pixels away and you start a jump out of hyperspace; by the time you can finally move (after the jump animation), they are directly on top of you and so you have no opportunity to run away.

Ah - that's pretty much working as intended, then, at least in terms of not pausing. Pausing wouldn't eliminate the possibility of unpleasant surprises waiting for you on the other side, anyway.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 07:02:42 PM
The range on "Squall MLRS" seems to be either incorrect or bugged.
It shows the range as 2000, but when fired the missiles seem to "shut down" at 500 and then disappear completely at around 1000 or so range.
(Fired from Apogee with ECCM package just to mention it)

(Took a look, seems to be working correctly. Even tried it with a safety overrides variant just to make sure that wasn't affecting it.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sordid on November 20, 2015, 07:14:58 PM
It affects me in every single battle I fight. Because allied AI is so useless, I tend to go solo. Because I go solo, I kite a lot. Because I kite, enemy ships try to flank me and surround me. Because they try to flank me, I strafe to the side. Because I strafe to the side, I bump against the edge of the map. Because I can go no further, enemy ships are free to flank me by going out of bounds.

I don't know if it's changed in 0.7, but in 0.65.2a not only do enemy ships not go out of bounds to any meaningful extent, if they're going to they turn around and fly back in at right angles to the map edge. This makes them almost harmless for several seconds while front shields and weapons are pointing away from you.

Yeah, they don't do that. I tested it just now to make sure. They do bounce back from the edges like the player does, but their bounces are a lot 'softer' than mine. They're able to 'dive' into the edge for quite a long time, and while they're in there they happily continue facing me and shooting me (especially fighters, holy crap, and yes, even a single fighter can be your doom when it blows up your unstable engines). They do seem to be extremely unwilling to follow me into a corner, though, which I didn't know about.

@Sordid
Would you mind sharing what specific ways the allied AI is bad? It is the same AI as the enemy, so it benefits from all of the same reaction times, etc, so I find it to be quite competent. If you have been playing without them you might be surprised at how much better it has become over the years. Especially with officers giving them skills.

I kind of already wrote a huge post on that topic. Specifically, I love my Medusa, right? And I keep my old Wolf. I'm fighting a big pack of enemies. I close in to pick one off, then use my skimmer to back off to vent. As often as not my escorting Wolf then decides "he's backed off to vent, better cover him!" and charges straight into the middle of the enemy pack. When we're the only two ships facing a dozen enemies, the AI should play super cautiously, in this specific case by using his own skimmer to back off with me. And then there's the firing arc crossing. I don't know what to say about that, sometimes the damn escort just decides to fly in front of me with his unshielded engines facing me while I'm blasting away at an enemy.

I haven't tried officers yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but officers give stats, don't they? As opposed to actual better decision-making?

Quote
I agree that fighting phase ships can be frustrating, but the alternative where they mess up and take hits, is far worse. They would become essentially useless. Unfortunately the only thing to do with them is to wait them out; its very easy with other ships in the fleet, but it is boring. (This is what phase ships are good at - fighting 1 other ship. They don't do well when outnumbered.)

Yeah, well, I kinda think they're a deeply flawed concept. Though I have to disagree that they're good at fighting one other ship. They're crap at that. All you have to do is shoot in its direction every two seconds to keep it phasing until it runs out of flux capacity, then just blow it up. IIRC the developer described them as the equivalent of submarines, and they really are. They need to operate in a wolf pack to be able to do anything, or at least cooperate with normal ships.

I'm not going to say fighting phase ships 1v1 is the best experience ever. It's doable with the right tactics, though. Expecting to score hits with that approach isn't going to work, generally; if you could, phase ships would be useless in AI hands.

I didn't make that video to demonstrate my technique of fighting these things one-on-one, I made it to demonstrate their silly reaction times.

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This is the behavior I see near map bounds:
Spoiler
(http://giant.gfycat.com/ConsciousAngryHummingbird.gif)
[close]

Occasionally, there's some dipping beyond the boundary, but no more than what your ship can also do. I don't know what you're seeing.

It seems to me the enemy can dip a lot deeper than me, for one thing. Even if that's not the case, the enemy dipping like that is a much bigger deal than me doing it. If I do that, I gain almost nothing. When the enemy does it and uses it to blow up my engines, I lose the battle. It's a lot more powerful in the AI's hands simply because there's a lot more AIs than me and I have much more at stake than they do.

Quote
The thing is, literally no matter what the AI does (unless it does nothing at all), it's going to do something that's not to someone's liking at one time or another. That's just a reality. You can choose to get aggravated by it, or you can choose to treat it as something to figure out and work with. You might feel that these things in particular are major aggravations, and I certainly can't say that you're wrong - it's a subjective experience, and (in the least condescending way possible) I'm sure it's true for you.

What I can say is, given the situation, I'm pretty positive that "fixing" (in quotes because in my view, they mostly aren't problems) these things would create much bigger problems, from my subjective perspective. So, I'm not not fixing them because working on new features is more fun or whatnot. I actually enjoy working on AI a lot, and probably spend more time on it than is prudent, but I feel it's very important to a single-player game. We just don't see eye-to-eye on the specifics here, and I'm not sure that we can.

Regarding shooting allies: if you're continuing to fire without looking where you're firing, I have to say, that's entirely on you. You can put the guns on auto-fire, you can even pause the game while do it or while you look around, or you can stop firing for a second while you're not looking - which often isn't even a DPS loss, since it's generally limited by flux not time on target. The AI may be to blame for passing in front of you, but it isn't to blame for being shot.

Well... I kind of already addressed that in my previous posts where I detailed some of the reasons why no, it's not my fault when the AI gets shot. To briefly reiterate, the AI has perfect awareness of what's going on around it. Human beings don't. When my escort passes in front of me while my guns are blazing, it absolutely is his own fault. But again, I understand perfectly what's going on here. It's a case of "I made the AI, I spent a lot of time on it, therefore any problems with it are the player's fault, not the AI's." It's Apple's "you're holding it wrong" all over again. Disappointing. That M&B trap I mentioned? This is what it looks like when you're sliding down into it. It breaks my heart, but there's nothing I can do that I haven't already done. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Quote
Well, the point is to - at this point, in a rather heavy-handed way - force you to fight faction-level enemies in the late game. For the current implementation, "realism" wasn't a partcular concern, so I'd say it's working as intended :) (Side note: to actually hostile-level hate you for it, they'd all have had to have investigated you at least three times each, so it's not exactly as though you've just hunted a few bounties...)

It was just a few bounties! I didn't count them, they were random pirates! There was no indication whatsoever that other factions might not like me killing pirates, and the investigations didn't start until after I'd done the damn bounties! Now my playthrough is ruined because literally everyone except Ludds and Independents hates me. I can't trade, I can't get missions, I can't get ships, all I can do is just constantly run away from everything I meet. I have no idea how to build the reputations back up, if it's even possible. Plus it would probably be more time-efficient to just start over and avoid killing pirates in systems that have bounties on them. Which I'm pretty sure is the exact opposite of what bounties are supposed to incentivize.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: megalon on November 20, 2015, 07:32:45 PM
Long time player and forum dweller but haven't had an account until now. Just wanted to say .7a is awesome and this game is really shaping up to be amazing. Thanks for making it and stuff!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 08:02:14 PM
Well... I kind of already addressed that in my previous posts where I detailed some of the reasons why no, it's not my fault when the AI gets shot. To briefly reiterate, the AI has perfect awareness of what's going on around it. Human beings don't. When my escort passes in front of me while my guns are blazing, it absolutely is his own fault. But again, I understand perfectly what's going on here. It's a case of "I made the AI, I spent a lot of time on it, therefore any problems with it are the player's fault, not the AI's." It's Apple's "you're holding it wrong" all over again. Disappointing. That M&B trap I mentioned? This is what it looks like when you're sliding down into it. It breaks my heart, but there's nothing I can do that I haven't already done. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I'm happy to acknowledge and fix AI problems. It can always be improved! All I'm saying is, is "look where you're shooting" too much to ask? That... seems fairly basic to me.

I'm not saying it's a good thing when the AI crosses your line of fire. In many circumstances, it's a mistake. But, the consequences aren't all that bad if you handle it well, which is far from impossible, and which you have lots of tools to assist you with. Thus, while it's definitely an issue, it's not a particularly high-priority one in my view.

(Side note: I'm rather a fan of M&B. Great game! Not without a few issues, but even so.)


Long time player and forum dweller but haven't had an account until now. Just wanted to say .7a is awesome and this game is really shaping up to be amazing. Thanks for making it and stuff!

Hi, and welcome to the forum! Well, welcome to posting on the forum is more like it, I suppose :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on November 20, 2015, 08:03:11 PM
Cheesus, Sordid, maybe you should stop being a lamer and do something other than border camping the map. :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 08:04:48 PM
No personal attacks, please. (And no personal counter-attacks.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: speeder on November 20, 2015, 08:18:54 PM
My feedback:

One, game is now absurdly hard, not because of sneaky pirates (in fact, not ONCE I was attacked by pirates O.o), but because as a trader, with the new broken economy (where all planets have 30.000 of everything + 30% trading tax), I figured I had to do cross-star work...

But as soon as I get to hyperspace, that green faction surrounds me and stomps me, it is very annoying, I found no way to evade them, they just engage, and insta-kill me (a single one of their ships can insta-kill the merchant ship on the start, I am unsure how, since they use the same hull, but is just they find me on the battle, start firing, and immediately all my engines and weapons go down like if I was hit by an emp, and then I see red numbers popping everywhere and then I am dead).

Two, being a trader now clearly sucks, I love to play a trader, but the market is broken, the events clearly are not powerful anymore (example: I had a event trigger a price decrease for supplies, that resulted in supplies being priced at 60...), and the missions are all for smugglers, the ONE time I saw a mission I could do as a trader, it was in the other side of the hyperspace map, and I could not weave around the horde of the green faction.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on November 20, 2015, 08:30:28 PM
If you open a comm link with the Luddic Path fleet (the lime green guys), you can pay them off.


As a suggestion, I think they should open a comm link with the player themselves upon interception. It's far from obvious that you can pay them off if you talk to them instead of trying to fight or run.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 08:37:47 PM
Being a purely-legal trader is going to be rough going, yes. Consider it a commentary on the state of affairs in the Sector, perhaps. Most of the fun stuff in trading, gameplay-wise, comes from the less-legal aspects of it, anyway. Later on with industry, I think there may be easier "legal, non-violent" paths to take on, but that's not in place yet. All in all, "legal trader" is the path that's received the least attention in terms of dev-time so far.

That said, you could probably pull it off, but I think it'd involve procurement missions, trade disruptions, and a bit of luck. Or maybe more than a bit.

I'm not aware of the economy being "broken", though; are there specific issues with prices etc? Just having lots of stuff available to buy isn't a problem per se and doesn't affect the prices you get.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: speeder on November 20, 2015, 08:55:20 PM
Most missions I am seeing are outright illegal.

Sometimes, I see a interesting mission, but then it wants the one good that noone has (example: people want machines, that frequently stations have only 30 of them or so...)

What I maen by "broken economy" is that some goods everyone has in absurd amounts, you can remove them from the game completely that they would make no difference, since there is no point in ever trading them, even with events (and I never saw them in missions).

In one of my re-starts, in corvus alone there was 500k organic stuff, 800k food, I visited another system, and it also had 700k of organic stuff, and 1 million of that blue thing...

Meanwhile people are all over the place wanting deliveries of 100 machines, but noone can supply that (nor it fits the starting ship, nor you can afford it at start, in fact at start almost no mission is doable at all! in one of my re-start attempts I resorted to using cheat engine to give me money, because it was very boring trying to scrounge money to start as a trader, since I could not afford any goods at all to sell elsewhere!)


Still, I came back to say I found a bug with your transponder system: when targeting a fleet, you are immediately let known who they are: I saw a "blip", used active sensor thing, and saw a gray fleet, I clicked on them, and on the top of my screen this showed: "Laying an intercept course for Pirate attack fleet", but when I mouseover they are still "Unindentified fleet", I guess this is a bug and not intended.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: speeder on November 20, 2015, 08:56:20 PM
If you open a comm link with the Luddic Path fleet (the lime green guys), you can pay them off.


As a suggestion, I think they should open a comm link with the player themselves upon interception. It's far from obvious that you can pay them off if you talk to them instead of trying to fight or run.

Oh, I only opened comm with them once, they spouted some *** and still attacked... I didn't knew you could try to tribe them.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 09:05:06 PM
What I maen by "broken economy" is that some goods everyone has in absurd amounts, you can remove them from the game completely that they would make no difference, since there is no point in ever trading them, even with events (and I never saw them in missions).

In one of my re-starts, in corvus alone there was 500k organic stuff, 800k food, I visited another system, and it also had 700k of organic stuff, and 1 million of that blue thing...

Thanks for clarifying.


Meanwhile people are all over the place wanting deliveries of 100 machines, but noone can supply that (nor it fits the starting ship, nor you can afford it at start, in fact at start almost no mission is doable at all! in one of my re-start attempts I resorted to using cheat engine to give me money, because it was very boring trying to scrounge money to start as a trader, since I could not afford any goods at all to sell elsewhere!)

Yeah, procurement missions are more of an opportunistic thing rather than something you're guaranteed to be able to do.

If you want machinery, btw, Chicomoztoc in Aztlan is a good place for it. Agreus in Arcadia also has some. One way to see (aside from the "price" intel filter) is opening up the "market info" panel at a market, clicking on the commodity you're interested in, and seeing what the imports/exports are - you'll be able to track it down to its source.

Still, I came back to say I found a bug with your transponder system: when targeting a fleet, you are immediately let known who they are: I saw a "blip", used active sensor thing, and saw a gray fleet, I clicked on them, and on the top of my screen this showed: "Laying an intercept course for Pirate attack fleet", but when I mouseover they are still "Unindentified fleet", I guess this is a bug and not intended.

Thanks for the report - noted, will fix that up.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cyan Leader on November 20, 2015, 09:09:08 PM
About the AI discussion, Alex, have you considered nerfing the AI for different difficulties?

Personally I think the AI in the game in Starsector is excellent. Many other games that I play, including AAAs, have much worse and simpler AI and it is just baffling how much of a gap there is between a great AI like yours and theirs. But I think that it might be too good for some players. It definitely makes the game harder when they can perfectly tell if their missile will connect or not when you vent and all the other hidden calculations they do on flux that helps them out on combat. Again, don't get me wrong, I love that they are that good, it's just that it might be too much for some players, especially those that are starting with the game and haven't wrapped their heads around the flux system and all.

Therefore, maybe a simpler AI might be useful for some difficulties? Decreasing their stats only won't do much when they can still completely outplay newbies.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Tarran on November 20, 2015, 09:17:00 PM
An amusing thing I noticed: Outside of Hyperspace, running dark, I got dinged and chased by a Tri-Tachyon patrol. They got upset about me running with the transponder off, understandably, in Tri-tachyon territory.

Except... this is right outside of Arcadia, which has no Tri-Tachyon bases... and this patrol is, apparently, from the Valhalla system. So I think either some Tri officers are on drugs or something, or that might be a slight bug. :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 20, 2015, 09:20:48 PM
Thanks for the report - noted, will fix that up.
Of course, I post this in the bug forums and it gets noticed here before there. :P


The AI is pretty damn good.  In larger fleet battles, though, they can't seem to multitask very well - I usually see the AI set up an Assault order somewhere in space that sends 90% of their fleet to that area.  The AI really needs to learn how to divide and conquer, much like how the player does (which means, don't send your entire fleet to one half of the map - the other half of the enemy fleet could just swing around and pull off a massive flank, which is the usual situation in most large battles with me).

@Tarran
The Tri-Tachyon usually doesn't give a damn if your Transponder is on or off.  I guess there's separate levels of how hidden you are to how much the AI can care?

I think patrols generally go as far as they can before having to turn back and refuel.  Arcadia to Valhalla isn't too far, comparatively to the other star systems (like Penelope's Star, really far out).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 20, 2015, 09:29:23 PM
I've made massive amounts of money by smuggling supplies, but it was all opportunistic. I just saw that a market was buying them for 700(!) and then emergency burned to the nearest other world. They had a couple hundred for sale for 80 - I bought those legally, then sold them smuggling. A month later the investigator wants 120k to shut up. Bye bye faction rep!

I've taken to just carrying around extra fuel and supplies (bought a Buffalo for just that). My main activity is hunting bounties, but I make about an equal amount opportunistically selling supplies (and buying them on the cheap). I could probably make a better margin by having a few hundred heavy machinery and finding a mission, but the risk is much higher - I can always "eat" the supplies over time, but wtf am I going to do with heavy machinery if the market goes away?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Tarran on November 20, 2015, 09:32:10 PM
@Tarran
The Tri-Tachyon usually doesn't give a damn if your Transponder is on or off.  I guess there's separate levels of how hidden you are to how much the AI can care?

I think patrols generally go as far as they can before having to turn back and refuel.  Arcadia to Valhalla isn't too far, comparatively to the other star systems (like Penelope's Star, really far out).
Maybe, though I will note that the Tri-Tachyon was Suspicious with me, so that might be why they're giving me sass.

Yeah, I'm not really concerned about why they're at Arcadia. I'm concerned as to how they could possibly consider the system their space! It's... quite a stretch to assume that it is.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TheDTYP on November 20, 2015, 09:41:55 PM
I finally got to play the update and this was my experience:

I smuggled the drugs I started off with (Smuggler build) to Coatl or something, got a ton of money, then bought an Enforcer and a level 4, level 7 combat Officer.

I got another mission telling me to bring 10 drugs to Ragnar or something, so I decided "Screw it, I want money" so off I went.

A bunch of pirates sneak up on me immediately upon leaving the system, but they ask me for my drugs in return for, yaknow, not killing me.

I told them to go eff themselves.

They immediately killed me and I rage quit.

This is gonna take some getting used to. but at least the game is hard again! My only complaint is that some of the star systems are really... empty. Are these placeholders for the Exploration update?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.7a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2015, 10:06:34 PM
About the AI discussion, Alex, have you considered nerfing the AI for different difficulties?

I've thought about it, yeah, but not to the level of thinking everything through.

Would it be just difficulty-based? Would officer levels play into it? Would it only affect the enemies, or your side as well? Would the AI looking stupid at lower difficulties color the impressions of someone playing the game for the first time on "easy"?

I think it's an interesting topic and I'm not sure I have good answers to the various questions.



In larger fleet battles, though, they can't seem to multitask very well - I usually see the AI set up an Assault order somewhere in space that sends 90% of their fleet to that area.  The AI really needs to learn how to divide and conquer, much like how the player does (which means, don't send your entire fleet to one half of the map - the other half of the enemy fleet could just swing around and pull off a massive flank, which is the usual situation in most large battles with me).

(Just a point of clarification: this is the job of the "admiral AI", which is distinct from the ship AI.)