Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Mods => Topic started by: Dark.Revenant on June 26, 2014, 10:49:27 PM

Title: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on June 26, 2014, 10:49:27 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8f.7z)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.8f (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8f.7z)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.8f.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires GraphicsLib 1.2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10982.0))

- Supported by DynaSector 1.4.4 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11001.0) (Updated!) -
- Supported by Nexerelin 0.8.3e (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0) (Updated!) -

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Edit TEMPLAR_OPTIONS.ini to enable or disable Knights Templar features, such as the demanding custom shader effects!

Having problems?  Visit the Mod Troubleshooting Guide (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10931)!

Note about DynaSector
DynaSector is necessary for debris/salvage adjustments to certain Templar campaign features.  Without certain features added by DynaSector, significantly more gear is possible to salvage than is actually intended, which can negatively impact balance and your enjoyment of the game.  If you don't like certain changes introduced by DynaSector, (nearly) all of them can be turned off in DYNASECTOR_OPTIONS.ini.

Lore
The Knights Templar arrived in the Sector several decades ago, startling the Sector with a display of technology never before seen. Far above and beyond the level of manmade technology, the ships and weapons they wield are thought to be alien in origin, adapted for human use. How the Knights Templar acquired this technology remains one of the great mysteries of the sector.

What is known, however, is that the Knights Templar are bent on the destruction of every remnant of the Domain of Man. They assert a self-proclaimed "Crusade against depravity," believing that the "crude and ungodly" technology and governance used by modern man is heathenish. Furthermore, they appear to be campaigning for domination beyond the confines of the local sector, as some sources claim that the Knights Templar possess a ship capable of bridging the vast expanse between sectors. While such claims are generally treated as the ravings of madmen, the Knights Templar have established themselves as a tremendous military organization capable of fighting a standing war with most other factions simultaneously.

Templar military doctrine is extremely unforgiving; Templar commanders are willing to hunt down any perceived threat with no regard to personal well-being, while captured knights invariably choose suicide before interrogation. Captains are advised to stay clear of the Knights Templar at all times.

(http://i.imgur.com/JkfuRta.png)

This mod contains several ships and fighter wings, numerous modular weapons, a multitude of unique ship systems, a new star system, and unique campaign features.


Gameplay

(http://giant.gfycat.com/ZealousFirstHairstreak.gif)

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DigitalSlipperyCaracal-size_restricted.gif) (https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/DigitalSlipperyCaracal)

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PaltryUnderstatedBushbaby-size_restricted.gif) (https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/PaltryUnderstatedBushbaby)

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OffbeatEvenEagle-size_restricted.gif) (https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/OffbeatEvenEagle)

  • Very powerful and versatile
  • High hull strength, heavy armor, powerful passive shields
  • Very expensive and difficult to capture
  • Extremely powerful, high-flux, high-OP weapons
  • Slow, below-average maneuverability, but often have mobility ship systems
  • Excellent turret coverage
  • Extremely dangerous at high flux levels; Priwen Burst is a devastating AoE system based on flux level
  • Vulnerable during short windows of opportunity (such as after a Priwen Burst)


http://youtu.be/or9yA7gIK2k


http://youtu.be/yk7MQE5X8RU


http://youtu.be/jJFDxECbOCo


(http://i.imgur.com/wuYEFc5.png) (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/donate/index.html)


Credits
Development, Scripting: Dark.Revenant
Artwork, Sound Effects, Music: Cycerin
Design, Lore: Dark.Revenant and Cycerin
Backgrounds: Tartiflette
Portraits: MShadowy


Change Log
Version 0.9.8f (April 23, 2018)
- Significantly reduced Crucifix range
- Significantly reduced Crucifix HP
- Significantly reduced Crucifix rate of fire
- Significantly reduced Crucifix flux cost
- Renamed Crucifix MRM to Crucific CSM

Version 0.9.8e (October 3, 2017)
- AI improvements

Version 0.9.8d (October 1, 2017)
- Made Teutons significantly faster and tougher
- Various new projectile and impact effects
- Pax and Sentenia require more flux to fire
- Crucifix/Trucidare no longer requires ammo, but has a significantly higher flux cost
- Minor fixes

Version 0.9.8c (June 10, 2017)
- Fixed Templar transponder-off proceedings
- Improved some odds and ends

Version 0.9.8b (June 4, 2017)
- Updated to support Starsector 0.8.1a
- Each D-mod decreases Lattice Shield ship performance
- D-modded Templar ships have no Priwen Burst
- Significant changes to Templar debris/derelicts
- Significant rebalance to fleet presence in the sector
- Significant rebalance of Crusades and Crusade effects
- Prevented edge cases that could break the economy
- Greatly reduced EMP damage of Priwen Burst, Almace Burst, and Excalibur Drive detonations
- Increased ship prices
- Fixed floaters on the Chevalier sprite
- Readjusted Almace Burst AI
- Attacks that deal hard flux on a hit now only deal soft flux if they hit hull (still hard flux against shields)
- Adjusted Holy Charge AI
- Fixed some reputation-related issues for battle participation
- Priwen Burst and Excalibur Drive detonations have a maximum amount of total damage, attenuating if there are too many targets
- Made Martyrs more aggressive
- Far fewer enemy Templar ships are available for capture
- Aegis Shield now has charges and regenerates
- Reduced Clarent damage to 1500 from 2000, reduced Fighter Clarent damage to 1250 from 1500

Version 0.9.8 (May 14, 2017)
- Updated to support Starsector 0.8a
- Adjusted various ship stats to meet new standards
- Longinus Heavy Laser DPS reduced to 600 from 750
- Longinus Heavy Laser flux/s reduced to 900 from 1000
- Rhon Laser DPS reduced to 250 from 300
- Rhon Laser flux/s reduced to 350 from 450
- Improved fleet spawn scaling
- Archbishop now has built-in Faith Decks
- Enhanced campaign terrain in various ways
- Teutons rebalanced
- Almace Burst nerfed in almost every manner

Version 0.9.7b (April 11, 2017)
- Improved Chevalier armor, speed, and turning
- Chevalier no longer loses beam range (but still loses beam power) with higher flux
- Chevalier beam flux/second scaling with higher flux now proportionally matches the loss in DPS
- Chevalier beam scaling now only applies while the Lancelot Lance is firing
- Lancelot Lance damage reduced to 1200 from 1500 per second
- Lancelot Lance flux reduced to 1500 from 2000 per second
- Reduced Trucidare submunitions to 8 from 10
- Trucidare, Crucifix, Secace, Galatine, and Arondight hard flux increases no longer scale with damage buffs
- Crucifix damage and EMP reduced to 150 from 200
- Crucifix hull-hit extra damage reduced to 75 from 100
- Crucifix hull-hit extra EMP reduced to 75 from 200
- Trucidare flux cost reduced to 2000 from 2500
- Trucidare now detonates if it rams into a ship
- Improved Dynasector results (breaks saves)

Version 0.9.7 (April 7, 2017)
- Added Chevalier-class Avenger
- Added Lancelot Lance built-in for the Chevalier
- Added Crucifix MRM
- Added Crucifix MRM Array
- Added Trucidare LRM
- Teuton fighters now have a Crucifix MRM Mini launcher instead of a Clarent launcher
- Increased Archbishop armor to 1200 from 1000
- Tweaked Clarent stats (again)
- Adjusted Holy Charge AI
- Schism Drive generates soft flux instead of hard flux
- Reworked Templar variants
- Added A Hard Place mission
- Reworked Excommunication mission
- Tweaked other Templar missions
- Additional balance changes
- Added fake phase system onto Templar ships to improve enemy AI handling of attack patterns (especially missiles)
- Updated various scripts to remove frame rate dependence on graphical effects

Version 0.9.6b (January 8, 2017)
- Updated ship and weapon prices
- Fixed stupid color crash

Version 0.9.6 (September 17, 2016)
- Fixed legacy crashes
- Archbishop speed increased to 50 from 30
- Archbishop is no longer designated as a carrier, so it will enter battle more readily
- Lattice shield beam damage reduction is now based on a curve; using beams to finish off a ship is much easier now
- Improved custom Priwen Burst UI indicator appearance

Version 0.9.5h (May 21, 2016)
- Minor improvements and fixes
- General compatibility update

Version 0.9.5g (April 3, 2016)
- Claim Victory exploit fixed
- Lattice Shield damage display numbers improved
- Ship sprites reverted back to the normal white color
- Pax Cannon range increase to 1000 from 700
- Pax Cannon now actually obeys conservation of momentum
- Clarent damage raised back to 2000, but range decreased to SRM status
- Bug fixes

Version 0.9.5f (March 1, 2016)
- Priwen Burst vulnerability time is longer
- Clarent damage reduced to 1750 from 2000
- Minor adjustments

Version 0.9.5e (January 30, 2016)
- Priwen Burst and Almace Burst are now 100% scripted, and has no phase-related side-effects
- Added market music
- Templars now require a commission for buying stuff
- Lattice Shield generally buffed for capital ships
- Interdictor Beam range increased to 800 from 500
- Clarents and ROLAND now have large flux costs
- Clarent and ROLAND stats adjusted across the board

Version 0.9.5d (December 23, 2015)
- Crusades fixed

Version 0.9.5c (December 22, 2015)
- Reduced burn speeds across the board
- Updated Crusade characteristics
- Crusades aren't as common
- Improved attack fleet target selection
- Adjusted fleet composition
- Improved Priwen Burst system indicator
- Templar fleets no longer find it amusing when the player's transponder is off

Version 0.9.5b (December 6, 2015)
- Updated for 0.7.1a
- Clarent speed adjusted depending on specific type being launched

Version 0.9.5 (November 27, 2015)
- Updated for 0.7a
- Portraits added
- Sprite update
- Teuton Smiters are now 2 per wing, FP reduced to 12 from 14, refit time increased to 25 seconds from 20
- Singular fighter Clarent range reduced to 1200 (theoretical max 2400) from 1500 (theoretical max 3600)
- Aegis Shield cooldown increased to 3.5 seconds from 1
- Crusader armor increased to 1000 from 800
- Joyeuse Fractal Laser damage reduced to 800 from 900 per shot; ammo restriction lifted
- Sentenia Cannon flux cost reduced to 125 from 140 per shot
- Secace Autocannon damage increased to 120 from 75
- Secace Autocannon hard flux increased to 250 from 200
- Clarent MRM (Single) OP reduced to 3 from 4
- Clarent MRM OP reduced to 8 from 10
- Clarent MRM Tube OP increased to 20 from 18
- Clarent MRM Tube now regenerates 1 ammo every 67 seconds
- Lattice Shield now scales damage reduction, efficiency, and critical level based on ship size
- Clarents and ROLAND are smarter about retargeting from phased ships
- Added another boss ship for SS+

Version 0.9.4g (July 5, 2015)
- Resolved rare null pointer crash
- Corvus Mode supported

Version 0.9.4f (May 21, 2015)
- Fixed Priwen Burst

Version 0.9.4e (May 17, 2015)
- Templar interaction music added
- New Excalibur Drive explosion sound
- Solved AI issue
- Rhon Laser range decreased to 500 from 600
- Arondight Accelerator hit detection improved
- Arondight Accelerator flux damage decreased
- Clarent MRM Tube range increased to 3000 from 2000
- Aegis Shield is reverted to old behavior (not toggled, 3 second duration)

Version 0.9.4d (April 18, 2015)
- New Excalibur Drive explosion charge sounds
- Templars no longer break with shaders disabled

Version 0.9.4c (April 17, 2015)
- Priwen Burst AI added (bursts will be a lot smarter!)
- Rhon Laser DPS reduced to 300 from 375; range increased to 600 from 500; turn rate decreased to 30 from 100
- Merced Cannon flux per shot increased to 80 from 75 (flux/second is 375 -> 400)
- Clarent MRM HP reduced to 300 from 500
- Longinus Heavy Laser flux per second increased to 1000 from 900; turn rate decreased to 30 from 50
- Sentenia Assault Cannon damage decreased to 100 from 110; flux per shot increased to 140 from 120 (dps is 506 -> 460, flux/second is 552 -> 644)
- Juger Heavy Cannon damage increased to 2000 from 1850; maximum arc damage increased to 600 from 370; maximum total arc damage increased to 1500 from 740 (effective dps is 811 -> 1041)
- Joyeuse Fractal Laser damage increased to 6x900 from 6x850; flux per attack increased to 7000 from 6000 (effective dps is 850 -> 900, flux/second is 857 -> 1000)
- Arondight Accelerator damage increased to 3000 from 2000; flux per shot increased to 9000 from 7000; ammo recovery increased by 50% (effective shield-hit dps is 435 -> 522, effective armor-hit dps is 1009 -> 1252, effective armor-hit dps (w/o flux) is 487 -> 730, flux/second is 609 -> 783)
- ROLAND HP reduced to 900 from 1200
- ROLAND System now regenerates 1 ammo per minute
- Templar CR stats improved
- Made Templar shields particularly effective against beams
- Extremely High Maintenance changed to High Maintenance
- TwigLib compatibility improved

Version 0.9.4b (March 8, 2015)
- A few minor fixes
- Rendering issue on custom graphics resolved
- Exerelin compatibility

Version 0.9.4 (February 17, 2015)
- Updated for Starsector 0.65.2a
- Martyr-class Illuminator added
- Pax Cannon added
- Weapon rebalance pass
- Memory leaks resolved
- Clarent/ROLAND AI and flight profile changed
- Reputation loss from trading with the Ludd decreased
- Luddic Church Purification fleets now have escorts, improved AI
- Crusades improved in general, reputation increases normalized
- No longer illegal to sell your own stuff to Ascalon; no longer illegal to buy back non-Templar weapons
- Fighters are a lot less common in small Templar fleets
- Hard flux dissipation rate adjusted
- Defense fleet AI is a lot more zealous

Version 0.9.3g (January 8, 2015)
- Lattice Shield Matrix code optimized slightly
- Spiffier shield impacts
- Ascalon counts as a comm relay
- Secace, Galatine, and Arondight flux damage now properly scales with stats
- The Knights Templar do not like when you trade with the Luddic Church
- Luddic Church sometimes sends an enormous fleet to Antioch to cause trouble
- Unrest after a Crusade is normalized; no more 20+ stability penalties!
- Holy Charge AI improved
- Slightly increased high explosive damage to Templar shields
- Priwen Burst EMP damage halved, but now deals hard flux damage in addition to everything else
- Templar reactor explosions deal kinetic damage, deal half the damage they used to, and inflict massive hard flux damage to those caught in the blast

Version 0.9.3f (December 8, 2014)
- Code review and cleanup
- Anamorphic flare shader updated; more colors!
- Ascalon now has storage space
- Ascalon should stock a better variety of ships and have more weapons available
- Ascalon stocks a lot of fuel and supplies now; tariff removed
- Non-crusade fleets can be a lot smaller, for an early game challenge
- Fixed bug: reputation no longer improves automatically
- Lattice Shields now offer 25% beam resistance
- Interdictor Drone hit points increased to 700 from 450, armor increased to 100 from 75
- Archbishop hit points increased to 17000 from 14000
- Lattice Shields are now influenced by stat mods, such as from player skills and CR bonuses
- Priwen Burst damage increased by 33%; damage type changed to Kinetic (EMP unchanged)

Version 0.9.3e (November 22, 2014)
- Crusades no longer bug out when you load the game
- Crusade reputation hits are less fickle

Version 0.9.3d (November 19, 2014)
- Crusade fleets arrive on time to distant systems (crusades longer in these cases)
- Crusade end reports are sector-wide and now list casualties for each side
- Knights Templar are now hostile with independents (should make better crusades)

Version 0.9.3c (November 18, 2014)
- Significantly reduced asteroid count in Antioch
- Crusade adjustments for consistency
- Small fixes here and there

Version 0.9.3b (November 15, 2014)
- Fixed Aegis Shield AI
- Minor Crusade adjustments

Version 0.9.3 (November 14, 2014)
- Holy Crusade frequency and scale are now controllable from settings.json
- Adjusted and improved Holy Crusade
- Captured/sold Templar ships now function at 100% capacity
- High Maintenance removed from Templar ships; replaced with Extremely High Maintenance
- There is now an exclusive market at Ascalon; gain a high reputation and you can enter
- Small bug fixes

Version 0.9.2 (November 11, 2014):
- Updated for Starsector 0.65a
- Compatibility adjustments for ShaderLib Beta
- Added Holy Crusade event and corresponding market data
- Price updates
- Prices, fuel usage, and other various stats updated to keep in line with 0.65
- Updated ship bounding polygons
- High Maintenance added to all ships
- Aegis Shield is now toggled rather than duration-bound
- Clarent MRM and ROLAND MIRV stats and appearance adjusted
- Clarent/ROLAND damage increased to 2000 from 1500
- Merced Cannon range lowered to 500 from 550; damage per shot lowered to 50 from 60 (DPS to 250 from 300)
- Priwen Burst Shield now damages missiles and asteroids
- Priwen Burst Shield now has a UI indicator for status and cooldown

Version 0.9.1 (August 31, 2014):
- Mission balance adjusted
- Fleets no longer have an absurd repair chance
- Fleets repair much more quickly; you won't find a Templar fleet below 50% repair anymore
- Fixed crash when disabling shaders

Version 0.9 (August 31, 2014):
- Initial release
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: HELMUT on June 27, 2014, 01:53:27 AM
Sooooo... Can we expect ships named after the knights of the round table?
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: ValkyriaL on June 27, 2014, 04:40:08 AM
Ooooh, something rivaling the Valk royal navy in terms of end game challenge eh? ;D
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Dark.Revenant on June 27, 2014, 09:48:09 AM
Let me put it this way: their frigate (the Jesuit-class Elucidator you see in the screenshots) is about on par with a heavy destroyer or light cruiser.

The basic hull mods all their ships have:
Lattice Shield Matrix: An alien defense system that covers the entire hull of the ship, passively dissipating damage. Operates at 90-percent efficiency at 0% flux and degrades to 50-percent efficiency at 75% flux. Consumes 1.0/0.75/0.625/0.5 flux per point of damage absorbed.

Excalibur Core: Vast reactor output and alien design methodologies give this ship major advantages over Domain-level tech. Vent rate increased by 100%, EMP damage reduced by 50%, weapon flux cost reduced by 50%, sensor range increased by 100%, 2.0/1.0/0.5/0.25-percent hull is recovered per second to a maximum of 25% integrity. Ship does not gain a 0-flux speed boost.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Farlarzia on June 27, 2014, 10:32:27 AM
Vent rate increased by 100%
Is this active venting, or passive?
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Dark.Revenant on June 27, 2014, 10:47:24 AM
There is only one venting rate.  Venting is active, flux dissipation is passive.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Sabaton on June 27, 2014, 11:38:50 AM
That sounds scary, and it is just a frigate.
Any insight on their lore and ideology?
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Farlarzia on June 27, 2014, 01:31:55 PM
Thanks, I was double checking.
Oh and this looks seriously good so far.
Can I ask roughly how many ships you expect for this when it is finished?
and also what the composition of the ship types will be like?
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Dark.Revenant on June 27, 2014, 07:20:52 PM
Any insight on their lore and ideology?
No one is sure what they want and why they exist.  Their technology is beyond anything we've ever seen, definitely not a Domain design.

Can I ask roughly how many ships you expect for this when it is finished?
and also what the composition of the ship types will be like?
Fighter-Bomber, Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser, Capital, and Supercapital
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: sarducardun on June 28, 2014, 03:22:50 AM
Any insight on their lore and ideology?
No one is sure what they want and why they exist.  Their technology is beyond anything we've ever seen, definitely not a Domain design.

Can I ask roughly how many ships you expect for this when it is finished?
and also what the composition of the ship types will be like?
Fighter-Bomber, Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser, Capital, and Supercapital

Yay supercap, maybe my beloved unsung will actually have to try against that one.  ;D
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Sabaton on June 28, 2014, 04:04:29 AM
Given the capabilities of their frigates, I think trying might not be enough.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: ValkyriaL on June 28, 2014, 04:06:59 AM
flying a broken ship against a boss ship made broken on purpose to provide a challenge? ITS BROKE MAN! :P

in all seriousness, i get the feeling you will need an entire fleet to take these things down, one unsung, no matter how OP it is, wont do jack against these by itself.

Can't wait.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Nanao-kun on June 28, 2014, 07:58:33 AM
flying a broken ship against a boss ship made broken on purpose to provide a challenge? ITS BROKE MAN! :P

in all seriousness, i get the feeling you will need an entire fleet to take these things down, one unsung, no matter how OP it is, wont do jack against these by itself.

Can't wait.
Nothing left to do but ram it with your Cruise Drive!
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Hyph_K31 on June 28, 2014, 03:36:14 PM
flying a broken ship against a boss ship made broken on purpose to provide a challenge? ITS BROKE MAN! :P

in all seriousness, i get the feeling you will need an entire fleet to take these things down, one unsung, no matter how OP it is, wont do jack against these by itself.

Can't wait.
Nothing left to do but ram it with your Cruise Drive!

Whilst leaning out of the airlock screaming abuse through the vacuum of space. Fear not, captain McFuzzyNuts will save us from the tyrannical Templars.

( if anyone understands what I just said, get that chicken Alfredo far away from here. )
Title: The First Wave
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 09, 2014, 10:51:34 PM
The Crusader, coming in with a bang!  Lots of progress has been made in the mean time, including updated shaders and many all-new weapons which you may have a chance to see later...

(http://i.imgur.com/Vg5doVg.png)     (http://i.imgur.com/nWHVfyQ.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/MW4GSxj.png)


Jesuit-class Elucidator
(http://i.imgur.com/0RNWL8C.png)
Feared throughout the Sector, the Jesuit-class is a frigate-sized vessel used almost exclusively by The Knights Templar in their quest to bring redemption upon humanity. This ship's size belies its true might; with powerful lattice shields, incredible weapons, and a frighteningly advanced reactor to drive them, the Jesuit-class outperforms any other frigate and is more than capable of overpowering ships twice its size.

The Jesuit-class elucidator wields a pair of small weapon slots as well as a single medium slot, bolstered by two Carnwennan Quad-Beams for defense. Despite this deceptively small weapons package, the Jesuit-class is shockingly powerful, capable of matching much larger ships blow-for-blow. Captains are advised to consider the Jesuit-class to be a threat equivalent to a heavy destroyer, and to focus all firepower on vulnerable Jesuits to eliminate the clear threat they pose.

All ships used by The Knights Templar carry the Lattice Shield Matrix, a powerful passive defense system that absorbs damage and converts a large portion of it into "soft" flux. As a result, insufficient damage cannot wear down a Templar ship. Furthermore, all Templar ships have the Priwen Burst Shield, a flux-shunt that converts built-up flux into a powerful radial blast. The strength of this blast depends on the flux level of the ship, but generates additional flux after activating, so this system is often used as a gambit to stall for time or decisively end the battle.



Crusader-class Bulwark
(http://i.imgur.com/gLPvfoF.png)
This exceptionally durable vessel forms the backbone of fleets operated by The Knights Templar. The Crusader-class  is one of the most powerful destroyers yet encountered, capable of individually defeating a cruiser or a group of lesser destroyers. This ship performs well in all combat situations, even while outgunned and surrounded, making it an exceptionally difficult opponent.

The Crusader-class bulwark wields three small weapon slots and two medium weapon slots, as well as a front-mount Carnwennan Tri-Beam, rear-mount Quad-Beam, and side-mount Hex-Beam. Featuring a powerful offense as well as a powerful defense, this ship should be avoided whenever possible due to the threat it poses. The best known tactic to eliminate a Crusader is the application of pure overwhelming firepower to force the ship into a "flux war" that it cannot win.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Nanao-kun on July 10, 2014, 01:49:06 AM
That's amazing.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Foxer360 on July 10, 2014, 07:44:52 AM
A question, do shield piercing weapons like the CIGEN or Ether Driver go through the Matrix of Templar ships?
 
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 10, 2014, 08:06:19 AM
Nope!  Bwahahahahaha.
Title: Mysterious Beam Weapons
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 10, 2014, 12:37:03 PM
The Knights Templar have been seen using these deadly weapons. These beams are beyond anything we've encountered before. We know not where they got this technology from, but whatever they intend to use it for will be disastrous for us.

(http://i.imgur.com/acVaZYN.png)


Rhon Laser
(http://i.imgur.com/qBWG8zO.png)
This beam weapon resembles a classic laser weapon, but is far more powerful than should be physically possible. Useful for swift, precise strikes.

The Rhon Laser is misnamed because it is not a laser at all, but rather some kind of phased emission sent through a complicated crystal assembly. Moreover, the central crystal that is used to produce the beam does not appear naturally in the universe, and all attempts to synthesize one have failed. Researchers hypothesize that these so-called "Force Crystals" may have been used by their alien creators for a variety of tasks, including industrial cutting, power generation, and personal combat.



Longinus Heavy Laser
(http://i.imgur.com/MCBWZQu.png)
Immensely powerful for its size, this weapon produces a focused beam capable of overwhelming shields and melting straight through armor plates.

Thought to be the most intense beam weapon in existence, the Longinus Heavy Laser is not a laser at all, but rather a phased emission sent through an arcane crystal assembly. Moreover, the central crystal that is used to produce the beam does not appear naturally in the universe, and all attempts to synthesize one have failed. Researchers hypothesize that these so-called "Force Crystals" may have been used by their alien creators for a variety of tasks, including industrial cutting, power generation, and personal combat.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Nanao-kun on July 10, 2014, 01:57:53 PM
Can't wait to capture one of these monster ships.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Sabaton on July 11, 2014, 02:13:34 AM
I'm getting a Illuminati in space vibe here...
Title: Holy Strike Fighters
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 11, 2014, 09:56:12 PM
Long have these wings of fighters plagued our shipping routes and mining fleets and even our war fleets, large and small.  Do not underestimate these wings, lest you die in the coldness of space.

(http://i.imgur.com/CYl69Nw.png)


Teuton-class Fighter
(http://i.imgur.com/cQU6xUT.png) (http://i.imgur.com/cQU6xUT.png) (http://i.imgur.com/cQU6xUT.png)
Heavily-defended and well-armed, the Teuton-class is an extremely dangerous fighter capable of withstanding capital-grade weapons and retaliating in kind. Teutons are found in many configurations, differentiated by the choice of primary weapon fitted on each fighter.

The Knights Templar exclusively use the Teuton-class fighter as auxiliary craft. Featuring a side-mount Clarent MRM, defensive Carnwennan Mono-Beam, and a modular main cannon, this fighter fuses strike, space superiority, and assault capabilities into one powerful frame. Commanders are cautioned to employ at least one cruiser-sized vessel dedicated to point defense when operating in known Templar raiding zones, specifically to deal with the extreme threat these fighters represent.

Unlike most other ships used by The Knights Templar, the Teuton-class fighter lacks the Priwen Burst Shield, in favor of the Almace Burst system, which is more appropriate for smaller vessels lacking sufficient flux capacity to unleash a strong Priwen blast.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Foxer360 on July 11, 2014, 10:20:26 PM
I gotta get off my lazy butt and make a large flak for Citadel to deal with such nasty fighters! Of course, the Nova's Supernova array can destroy dozens of fighters in one volley...

Aside from the shameless self promotion, when do you estimate there to be a downloadable version?
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 11, 2014, 10:32:28 PM
I gotta get off my lazy butt and make a large flak for Citadel to deal with such nasty fighters! Of course, the Nova's Supernova array can destroy dozens of fighters in one volley...

Aside from the shameless self promotion, when do you estimate there to be a downloadable version?
I can't think of any PD weapon capable of easily destroying these.  The shield and hull regen makes them last a long time...

Also, the mod will have a download when it's done.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Nanao-kun on July 11, 2014, 11:05:16 PM
Obviously we'll have to scale down the Neutrino Phased Array Cannon into a PD form.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: sarducardun on July 11, 2014, 11:19:12 PM
Currently  ether zorg handlers or Nhilic void pd is the best small energy pd for those beasts. (Void is almost as long range and super efficient)
Best ballistic pd is probably bravitan, 'cause some is right on the borderline between pd and non.

I dislike that as they are uncapturable they are unattainable. Makes me sad.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: MesoTroniK on July 12, 2014, 12:20:51 AM
I would suspect that the best tactic would likely be massed missile salvos :-X
Title: Excalibur Drive
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 14, 2014, 03:22:21 AM
Beware the death throes of Templar ships; they have claimed many proud lives in their moments of victory.

(http://i.imgur.com/HACO4vb.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/RxNSNiW.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/704ZIiu.png)

Valkyrian Heavy Cruiser shown in this zoomed-out image, for scale.


Excalibur Drive
Vast reactor output and alien design methodologies give The Knights Templar major advantages over Domain-level tech. For their ships, vent rates are increased, EMP damage is reduced, engines are shielded and redundant, weapon systems are overcharged for maximum output efficiency, sensors are upgraded, and hull can self-repair up to a certain level. However, these changes eliminate the possibility of gaining a zero-flux boost to engine power.

Due to the titanic energies involved in the Excalibur Drive Reactor, these ships have a tendency to critically detonate when disabled, destroying the ship utterly and inflicting major damage on nearby objects.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: sarducardun on July 14, 2014, 03:33:44 AM
Hence being non-capturable eh?
That thing looks scary.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Farlarzia on July 14, 2014, 08:34:16 AM
Was it non-capturable? I was under the impression you can capture them, and loot there weapons,but not buy there weapons or ships anywhere. However I might be getting them mixed up with something else.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Foxer360 on July 14, 2014, 08:38:12 AM
I think the impossible capture rate is assuming the templar ship doesn't self destruct in combat combined with the rarity of vanilla capture rates.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: sarducardun on July 14, 2014, 08:42:54 AM
You are indeed correct... I think i was thinking about the fighter being uncappable and unbyable and my mind decided the whole faction was... oops?
Title: Death and Danger
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 16, 2014, 11:45:08 AM
More weapon classifications have been uncovered, as great cost to our scouts' lives. Use this information for your own protection.

(http://i.imgur.com/OVimwzY.png)


Merced Cannon
(http://i.imgur.com/TlCTroG.png)
Capable of unleashing a deadly stream of energy bolts, this alien weapon delivers damage at a rate uncharacteristic for its size.

Named by The Knights Templar to evoke heavenly reward and mercy, the Merced Cannon is the most common weapon employed by the dangerous group of warriors. To this day, scientists are unable to determine how this arcane weapon functions; the leading theory is that it uses a method similar to the revered Plasma Cannon. If this is the case, then the Merced Cannon is miniaturized and refined beyond anything the Domain of Man was capable of - understandable, considering the weapon's alien origins.



Sentenia Assault Cannon
(http://i.imgur.com/RSTgg2e.png)
This exotic weapon fires a devastating stream of energy bolts, which then home in on nearby targets for maximum effect against targets of all sizes.

Named to evoke a guilty sentencing, the Sentenia Assault Cannon is used to terrible effect by The Knights Templar. This deadly weapon has claimed an uncountable number of lives, earning its place as one of the most feared weapons of our era. To this day, scientists are unable to determine how this arcane weapon functions; the leading theory is that it uses a method similar to the revered Plasma Cannon. If this is the case, then this weapon represents technological mastery far beyond anything the Domain of Man ever accomplished; miniaturizing the technology to such a degree and causing energy bolts to independently home in on opportune targets would be considered fantastical, were it not for the living proof present in the Sentenia Assault Cannon.



Carnwennan Multi-beam
This peculiar defensive beam weapon seems to be built into most Templar ships. The distribution and quantity of beams per port varies per design.

Judging from dissected samples of what The Knights Templar label as the Carnwennan Multi-Beam, this weapon operates in a manner similar to known domain burst point defense beams. However, it seems that the alien designers of this weapon managed to overcome the flux cycle issues that plague burst beams, allowing a continuous stream of bursts. Needless to say, efforts to reverse-engineer this weapon have met with failure.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Farlarzia on July 16, 2014, 01:18:51 PM
I understand this is probably just because your posting content as you make it, but I REALLY like the multi staged reveal of this mod. The fact that its exectuted really well, and the extremly high quality of what is revealed is making this compleltly awesome. And I'm sure its not just great for us either, as it helps keep interest and intrigue into the mod up, as well as building hype  :)
I seriously can't wait for this mod, I'm really exited, and I've rarely seen something of this calibre on these forums.
TL;DR This mod is good, I guess.
Title: Anti-Flux
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 17, 2014, 12:42:56 AM
These weapons overload reactors on impact, even on a strike against hull. If the Domain got their hands on these designs, energy generation technology would leap ahead by centuries. Alas, we are not so lucky; these weapons are extremely dangerous and must be avoided at all costs.

(http://i.imgur.com/L08tNki.png)


Secace Autocannon
(http://i.imgur.com/ajtqckj.png)
This weapon lacks stopping power but delivers a powerful flux charge, disrupting systems and raising the target's flux levels on impact.

Unusual even amongst Templar weapons, the Secace Autocannon can strain and even overload unshielded targets, cementing its status as a dangerous support cannon capable of crippling unprepared ships. The method of operation is completely unknown; the energy released by the exotic Secace shells seems to be shunted into the target's reactor rather than dissipating on the hull, an effect that previously had only been observed as a side-effect of the Tachyon Lance.



Galatine Heavy Disruptor
(http://i.imgur.com/a23k9d5.png)
This powerful cannon shoots uniquely dangerous projectiles at a high velocity, disrupting systems and overloading reactors in a wide blast area.

The Galatine Heavy Disruptor is regarded by tacticians and battlefield commanders to be the single most dangerous weapon yet encountered by humanity. Few Domain ships can hope to withstand a Galatine fusillade before being overloaded, flamed-out, and rendered completely helpless. The sheer combat utility of this weapon remains unmatched; however, it is not without flaw. The Galatine's detonation does not distinguish between friend and foe, so at knife-fight ranges it can cause significant disruption to the ship that fired it. Furthermore, this weapon has a finite ammo supply, so in protracted battles it will eventually stop firing, significantly weakening its wielder.

Scientists rarely get a chance to inspect a Galatine Heavy Disruptor in working order. As of yet, little progress has been made to understand this weapon. Captains are advised to stay out of range of this weapon if at all possible.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Cycerin on July 17, 2014, 08:55:33 AM
I understand this is probably just because your posting content as you make it, but I REALLY like the multi staged reveal of this mod. The fact that its exectuted really well, and the extremly high quality of what is revealed is making this compleltly awesome. And I'm sure its not just great for us either, as it helps keep interest and intrigue into the mod up, as well as building hype  :)
I seriously can't wait for this mod, I'm really exited, and I've rarely seen something of this calibre on these forums.
TL;DR This mod is good, I guess.

I'm really happy the reception has been good so far. We've been getting an absolute ton of work done very quickly, and the overall level of polish has been high from the get-go. A lot of things can't be shown through these teaser posts, though, like the sound effects and the ways the faction's weapons synergize and interact, and the sheer FEEL of the faction...
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: HELMUT on July 17, 2014, 01:11:48 PM
Don't know about the feel, but at least the look is definitely good. And i think i can probably trust you for the sound as well.

Just a bit worried about their strength. I know, boss faction and all... I just hope you'll manage to draw a straight line between strong and unfair.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Uomoz on July 17, 2014, 02:16:34 PM
They are kind on the neutrino level of power, maybe higher. But I completely trust DR and cyc about getting them cool to fight and hard to acquire enough to be a fantastic cherry on a cake for the campaign.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Cycerin on July 17, 2014, 03:19:50 PM
An important thing to know is that when you fight them and you're prepared for the fight, it's very easy to ensure you outnumber them.

All in all, they are strong, but fairly predictable in the sense of that you know the odds from the start.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 17, 2014, 04:49:22 PM
They are kind on the neutrino level of power, maybe higher. But I completely trust DR and cyc about getting them cool to fight and hard to acquire enough to be a fantastic cherry on a cake for the campaign.

Definitely higher.  Neutrino just has numbers to help them; the Templar numbers are probably not as high but they have a number of unique mechanics that make them very powerful against everything (but still beatable).

The next post will probably be about their central mechanic: shields.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on July 17, 2014, 10:46:43 PM
One thing I Would like to know is, WHY are these things captureable if they are just going to be hanger queens and player traps?
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 18, 2014, 12:33:06 AM
They're powerful enough to be worth the cost, but not so powerful as to break the game.  In my own tests, they're viable in the player's fleet; you just have to treat them as another rung up the ship classification ladder.

In UsS, you're pretty much out of luck. You'd never be able to make one of these ships profitable, but they do sell for a nice wad of cash.
Title: Templar Shields
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 18, 2014, 03:28:26 AM
One of the more complex facets of the ships used by The Knights Templar is the Lattice Shield Matrix, a unique defense system. Enveloping the entire ship, the lattice shield does not have any open spots nor defined geometric shape to exploit, unlike Domain shield technology. Furthermore, while damage done to the ship does generate hard flux, an active lattice shield neither prevents hard flux from being dissipated, nor does it generate any flux by itself. As a result, the Lattice Shield Matrix is a passive defense system, remaining on indefinitely as long as the ship's flux level is not too high. However, the lattice shields do not provide total protection; some damage does bleed through, depending on how overtaxed the ship's reactor is. The shield becomes less effective when the ship's flux level increases, until it eventually shuts off entirely.

Due to how powerful these shields are, captains are advised to wait until the opposing Templar ship has fired its weapons enough to build a significant amount of flux, leaving the ship vulnerable to fire.

(http://i.imgur.com/AejMsQ7.png)

If a shield is taxed enough, it will flash red.  Once the shield becomes critical, it will sustain the red color. It is unknown as to why the alien civilization that designed these ships made such an obvious tactical telegraph. Perhaps they were fundamentally more chivalrous than our own species?

(http://i.imgur.com/PqnRl8F.png)

When the shield goes down, it is the best opportunity to do damage to the Templar ship.  However, beware the fact that most of their weapons will be overcharged from the high flux and that their burst will be at its most powerful...

(http://i.imgur.com/AcJ398z.png)


Templar ships have an additional defense system known as the Priwen Burst Shield.  It partially phases the hull for a short time to avoid projectiles, before cataclysmically returning to real space, inducing a resonant flux burst which projects a powerful shear force while damaging and disrupting nearby ships with arcs of flux-rich energies.  The Priwen burst is not particularly powerful while the ship is at low flux levels, useful only as a minor defensive tool.

(http://i.imgur.com/FwzLdZf.png)

At a higher flux level, the burst is more powerful and has a wider area, making it useful for redirecting projectiles back at the ships that fired them and scrambling missiles in every direction.

(http://i.imgur.com/BqaxbmF.png)

At even higher flux levels, the burst becomes strong enough to damage nearby ships.

(http://i.imgur.com/sEVyLef.png)

Should ever the Templar ship reach a critical flux level, the burst becomes an effective option to punish ships that go in for the kill after the shields go down.  At this state, the burst is at its most deadly and is capable of doing significant damage to nearby ships.  Frigates in particular need to be wary about being being swatted out of the battle by a critical burst.

(http://i.imgur.com/TSfRAZZ.jpg)

Together, these systems are extremely effective and require clever tactics to overcome.  Be careful out there, Commander.  Countless good men and women died out there to bring us this information.


Lattice Shield Matrix
An alien defense system that covers the entire hull of the ship, passively dissipating damage. Operates at high efficiency at 0% flux and degrades to half efficiency at a higher flux level. The shield's damage absorption rate compares to Core epoch shield generators.

Priwen Burst Shield
The ship partially phases and shunts its built-up flux potential outward, ravaging nearby objects in the process. Power and duration is based on the ship's flux level. Generates flux.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Sabaton on July 18, 2014, 05:16:37 AM
Just how powerful will these ships be? Are they on the same level with the boss ships in SS+ arcade?
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 18, 2014, 06:02:38 AM
They're balanced for the campaign against higher-level player fleets.  Their smallest fleets are very dangerous against weak player fleets; even a group of 2 Jesuits and a Teuton wing can do bad things to a level 1 player in a single destroyer or cruiser, but by the time you're in a full fleet with significant player skills (around level 25) you can clash with a group of, say, 3 Crusaders, 3 Jesuits, and 2 Teuton wings with moderate losses.  Their larger, more powerful fleets, are truly devastating and require careful planning or extreme (40+) player levels (or both, in the case of their very best fleets).

They also have gated spawns, i.e. the maximum fleet power they can spawn gets higher over time, and their best fleets (like always) tend to roam around Antioch, their star system.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Nanao-kun on July 18, 2014, 12:40:06 PM
Wonder what a Blackrock Driveyards Imaginos-class would be like with Knights Templar technology. :P
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Hyph_K31 on July 18, 2014, 12:41:41 PM
A living, breathing, fighting nightmare.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Nanao-kun on July 18, 2014, 03:43:15 PM
A living, breathing, fighting nightmare.
And a Karkinos-class merged with Templar tech? :D
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Cycerin on July 18, 2014, 03:45:03 PM
Wonder what a Blackrock Driveyards Imaginos-class would be like with Knights Templar technology. :P

Given it only has one hardpoint, and Templar weapons are balanced around the 50% weapon flux reduction from the Excalibur Drive, I doubt it would be anything mind-blowing.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Hyph_K31 on July 18, 2014, 05:08:10 PM
A living, breathing, fighting nightmare.

Make that a living, asthmatic, not-quite-functional, disappointment
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Nanao-kun on July 18, 2014, 08:17:16 PM
I meant the ship itself, not its weapon mounts. As in, if the Imaginos was rebuilt with Templar technology.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: ValkyriaL on July 19, 2014, 12:26:31 AM
probably wouldn't be much different considering that the imaginos is bonkers already :P
Title: The Paladin
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 20, 2014, 08:57:24 AM
Never before have we encountered such an incredibly dangerous ship of the line.  The Paladin pulls weight far larger than the cruiser size classification suggests; treat it as a full-scale capital-class threat if you want to live.

(http://i.imgur.com/1Zw0Hri.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/S3Fv3GF.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/2K2RO46.png)


Paladin-class Retributor
(http://i.imgur.com/McNBrL4.png)
No ship is feared so much as the Paladin-class, the primary instrument of war used by The Knights Templar. A cruiser by classification, this ship completely outclasses all but the mightiest Domain-level warships and is infamous for its peerless performance in battle; nothing the Domain of Man ever created is enough to defeat a Paladin in single combat.

The Knights Templar use the Paladin-class retributor as a trump card when pure overwhelming might is required for their latest campaign. Boasting nine small weapon slots, two medium weapon splots, two Carnwennan Quad-Beams and two Hex-Beams, and the rare full-sized large weapon slot, the Paladin-class can field a tremendous array of weapons and eradicate destroyer-tier threats by the handful. This ship cannot be defeated without overwhelming firepower capable of breaking through its powerful passive defenses; the only tactic known to work without appalling losses is to flank and surround the Paladin-class with destroyers and cruisers laden with heavy assault weapons, supported by a capital ship to divert its attention.

It is no small blessing that The Knights Templar seem to have a strictly limited supply of these immensely powerful warships.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Cycerin on July 21, 2014, 06:37:57 AM
One of the primary strengths of the Paladin is its Holy Charge ship system, which shores up the primary flaw of most Templar ships: mobility. The Holy Charge disables the ship's weapons, thankfully, which allows for some breathing room... unless you are being rammed to death, that is.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on July 21, 2014, 03:33:34 PM
Can not WAIT until this is released!
Title: The Light of Retribution
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 26, 2014, 12:11:52 AM
We have important information on a dangerous Templar weapon!

http://youtu.be/jJFDxECbOCo


Joyeuse Fractal Laser
(http://i.imgur.com/K86RBCZ.png)
This weapon is essentially a shotgun of apocalyptic scale. Friendly fire is a danger when firing this weapon, but its damage output eclipses any other.

Virtually nothing is known of the Joyeuse Fractal Laser, which behaves neither like a laser nor like a fractal. Its properties are seemingly impossible, defying all rational explanation. The Tri-Tachyon Corporation recommends for captains to employ the strategy of being somewhere else when this weapon fires.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar (Video!)
Post by: kazi on July 26, 2014, 02:36:52 AM
Not sure how I feel about those engine system sounds. Here's a very detailed description of the vibe I was getting from it (not sure how else to explain lol):

BLAM BLAM BLAM, MASSIVE EXPLOSION, BLAM, *engine system activates*, <3  :D <3 fairies! yaaay, lets be friends!  :D <3 <3, *engine deactivates*, BLAM BLAM, EAT HOT FIREY (is that even a word?) DEATH!

The fractal laser is beyond cool though.

I know they're designed to be a "boss faction," but that cruiser seems to have absolutely zero weaknesses. It can gun down an Onslaught without breaking a sweat, didn't seem to take damage from most weapons (missiles don't even connect), and outruns anything that might be able to put any kind of pressure on it. If you do somehow manage to start hurting it, it just does that burst thing and wipes out/overloads everything nearby. Like, that doesn't even seem fun to play against (or play with for that matter). I know you are planning capital ships, but imo if a cruiser will wipe out an entire Hegemony SDF, they probably aren't necessary. I can't even imagine what would happen if that cruiser had an escort.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar (Video!)
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 26, 2014, 02:56:07 AM
I am far better at piloting that ship than the AI is.  That mission is actually harder than it looks; it's pretty easy to die.  That's around my tenth time playing it.  The trick is to avoid being surrounded and time those holy charges precisely to get in a better position, avoid being hit, etc.  I messed up twice in that video; once was being hit by that harpoon and the other time I got whacked with explosion damage from one of the dominators.

Keep in mind a Hyperion can take down an SDF on its own, barring CR issues.  Even with CR issues, Gothars has shown that only four Hounds are necessary.

The Knights Templar are properly balanced for campaign play; the Paladin is by no means invincible.  Also, the Paladin is the main ship of the line for the Templars, the capital ship is a combat carrier that, while game-changingly powerful in its own right, doesn't have the Paladin's DPS (and certainly doesn't have a large slot).
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar (Video!)
Post by: HELMUT on July 26, 2014, 04:20:29 AM
Not as overpowered as i thought. Usually the AI don't deploy its entire fleet against a single ship so DR was able to take on them 1v2/3 most of the time and tried to stay out of range of the Dominators. Even a lone Neutrino cruiser could do something like that. And when the Onslaught engaged, that idiot tried to tank with its shield.

I noticed that the Paladin PDs were pretty underwhelming against LRMs. The AI won't always use the burst shield in time to deflect missiles. In some way they work like Zorg, they lack flak weaponry so swarms of missiles will probably be deadly against them.

Too bad Kadur haven't been updated, their missile boats would have come in handy  ;D

Still, kudos on the effects, very enjoyable to watch.
Title: Judgement Day
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 03, 2014, 08:28:50 AM
Many pilots have died to bring us this information.

(http://i.imgur.com/K9WKxBU.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/Fg9UWIa.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/mDPbi8Q.png)


Juger Heavy Cannon
(http://i.imgur.com/Z3d0vII.png)
Trading efficiency for sheer might, this weapon fires extremely powerful orbs of energy that arc to nearby hostile objects, shredding them utterly.

Named by The Knights Templar to evoke divine judgment, the Juger Heavy Cannon lives up to its namesake by bringing down incredible power through an area of space. Vanishingly few samples of this weapon have been recovered by scientists; few have even scratched the surface of the secrets locked within. What is known, however, is that the Juger orb's periodic energy discharge has a maximum throughput and becomes less effective when many targets are nearby; our current understanding suggests that an individual orb can arc to a maximum of fifteen separate targets.

Be advised: the Juger Heavy Cannon fires orbs of energy that travel remarkably slowly, but detonate on impact with power rivaling a torpedo warhead. Avoid at all costs. Captains should also be wary that missile strikes are largely futile when facing ships armed with this weapon; a single energy orb can defeat all but the most apocalyptic missile barrages.
Title: Carriers of the Papacy
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 16, 2014, 09:05:47 PM
If you find this in the field, run.

(http://i.imgur.com/p67HGN5.png)


Archbishop-class Negator
(http://i.imgur.com/7uFYf8F.png)
The rarely-seen Archbishop-class is a capital-grade battle carrier typically used by The Knights Templar as a mid-fleet supporting anchor. Boasting an effective mix of firepower, reactor output, and durability, this ship is a terror on the battlefield and a crucial part of the largest Templar fleets. Beware the Archbishop's Interdictor Drones which can lock a ship in place with little hope of escape.

Invaluable for its triad of flight decks, the Archbishop-class negator is the cornerstone of the overall Templar navy for its tremendous supporting power. The ship features three Carnwennan Hex-Beams, two Carnwennan Penta-Beams, nine small weapon slots, and four medium weapon slots arranged in the cardinal directions for optimal firepower coverage. Despite being a carrier, the Archbishop-class is a match for any Domain battleship.

While a powerful ship in its own right, the Archbishop-class is tremendously effective when leading a vanguard of smaller ships. Not only is the Archbishop-class the primary carrier used by The Knights Templar, it also boasts Interdictor Drones. It is advised to avoid being caught by a web of Interdictor Drones at all costs, as it usually spells certain doom due to the Drones' ability to halt ship movement. While the Archbishop itself does not gain a large benefit from doing this, nearby flanking attackers are able to exploit the affected ships' immobility for devastating effect. There are no known tactics to effectively counteract the Archbishop's advantage over commonly-used Domain technology; if you find a method to consistently defeat this ship classification, please contact the Hegemony War Council immediately and collect your reward of 1.2 million credits (as per the current standing bounty).
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar (Video!)
Post by: Lcu on August 16, 2014, 11:40:17 PM
Oh so this is The Knight's Templar everyone is talking about, nice presentation! *thumbs up*
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar (Video!)
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on August 17, 2014, 05:28:09 AM
is this the last ship or is there one more?
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar (Video!)
Post by: ValkyriaL on August 17, 2014, 05:33:44 AM
There are more. ::) still missing the battleship and the dreadnought and possible fighter wings.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar (Video!)
Post by: Cycerin on August 17, 2014, 06:48:35 AM
The only remaining Templar ship is the dreadnought, which is likely to be left out of the first release.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar (Video!)
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on August 18, 2014, 06:53:44 AM
...the dreadnought, which is likely to be left out of the first release.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Title: Missiles!
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 30, 2014, 04:08:05 PM
The Templar missile barrages are short but deadly.

(http://i.imgur.com/ViLAXxn.jpg)


Clarent MRM
(http://i.imgur.com/yeqkJOP.png) (http://i.imgur.com/SeTVtny.png)
This launching assembly can fire two Clarent MRMs, which are devastating anti-warship missiles with unmatched propulsion and guidance systems.

The housing assembly used by the Templars' vaunted Clarent MRM launcher is nearly as complicated as the missile itself. Indeed, it is durable enough to withstand the intensely powerful backthrust generated when the missile is launched, it is heavy enough to reliably fire the missile in exactly the desired direction, and it is sophisticated enough to contain the Clarent's deadly radioactive emissions. The Clarent uses an exotic thermonuclear warhead - possibly an antimatter charge - to great effect. Unfortunately, attempts to reverse-engineer the warhead (or even tamper with it in any capacity) remain unsuccessful due to the missile's numerous failsafe mechanisms.


Clarent MRM (Single)
(http://i.imgur.com/wzfrdMz.png) (http://i.imgur.com/SeTVtny.png)
This launching assembly can fire a single Clarent MRM, a devastating anti-warship missile with unmatched propulsion and guidance systems.

Clarent MRM Tube
(http://i.imgur.com/z14g5bB.png) (http://i.imgur.com/SeTVtny.png)
This tubular launcher fires up to six Clarent MRMs, which are devastating anti-warship missiles with unmatched propulsion and guidance systems.

ROLAND System
(http://i.imgur.com/kfdws5y.png) (http://i.imgur.com/S5AzEgZ.png)
Capable of deploying quadruplet packages of Clarent MRMs, the ROLAND System is widely feared for its overwhelming long-distance power.

A working ROLAND System has only been recovered once; while the owner was unwilling to surrender the weapon, he did divulge the inscription etched into its housing assembly: "Revel in Our Lord's Ascension to Neverending Dominion". Very little is known about how this weapon works. Its devastating effects on the battlefield are, however, well-documented.

Captains are advised to not engage The Knights Templar; evading a ROLAND assault is essentially impossible, no matter how swift the craft. If conflict is inescapable, captains are instead advised to divert maximum power to shields during ROLAND barrages, as each Clarent housed within fields the power of a high-grade torpedo.
Title: The Ultimate Knight's Sword
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 30, 2014, 07:35:28 PM
One last thing...

(http://i.imgur.com/tlfpzEW.png)


Arondight Accelerator
(http://i.imgur.com/c139TEY.png)
The king of all kinetic weapons, this weapon can drive a massive rail through the hull of any ship, ravaging its reactor and systems in the process.

Few have survived to tell of the Arondight Accelerator, which is no doubt the most devastating weapon employed by The Knights Templar. Only one of these weapons has been recovered intact, so nothing is known about its inner workings. The sheer might of this weapon suggests that its design far exceeds anything the Domain of Man ever dreamed of.

The Arondight Accelerator is best defended against using powerful shields; the high-velocity projectile will propel the target backwards but otherwise collapses before piercing through. However, captains are cautioned that blocking an Arondight rail generates an extremely large amount of flux and can easily result in overload. An Arondight rail delivers ruinous damage to an unshielded ship, knocking out a wide swath of weapons and engines, crushing multiple decks, and flooding the reactor with flux (often resulting in an overload). Hegemony High Command advises commanders to immediately retreat when this weapon is sighted amongst a Templar fleet.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar (Video!)
Post by: Cycerin on August 30, 2014, 08:15:06 PM
Can't wait to have everyone check out all this content, releasing the mod with a near-final level of polish was our goal all along and I can confidently say we've met it.
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar (Video!)
Post by: ValkyriaL on August 30, 2014, 08:32:09 PM
Lets hope they beat the Royal Armada in terms of difficulty. and i think they do from what i've seen. :P
Title: Re: [WIP] The Knights Templar (Video!)
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on August 30, 2014, 11:12:00 PM
Lets hope they beat the Royal Armada in terms of difficulty. and i think they do from what i've seen. :P
I think the R.A. is gonna be downgraded to "mid boss" levels
Title: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 31, 2014, 12:08:23 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/JkfuRta.png)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.zip)
Download Mirror (https://www.mediafire.com/?90g1fxg5i68a116)
(Requires LazyLib 1.9b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0)) (Updated!)
(Requires ShaderLib Alpha v1.7 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Requires Starsector+ 1.10 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0) (Updated!) or soon to be included in Uomoz's Sector 1.4 Dev (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0))

The Knights Templar arrived in the Sector several decades ago, startling the Sector with a display of technology never before seen.  Far above and beyond the level of manmade technology, the ships and weapons that The Knights Templar wielded into battle are thought to be alien in origin, adapted by them for human use.  How this deadly group acquired this technology is a mystery that remains unsolved.

What is known, however, is that The Knights Templar are bent on the destruction of all traces of the Domain of Man in a self-proclaimed "Crusade against depravity", believing that the "crude and ungodly" technology and governance we use and enjoy are heathenish.  Furthermore, they appear to be campaigning for galactic domination, as they claim to have a ship capable of bridging the divide between lost sectors. Such claims are clearly the ravings of madmen; The Knights Templar are demonstrably an extremely unstable sort, willing to hunt down any perceived threat at no regard to their own well being.

Captains are advised to stay clear of The Knights Templar at all times.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.zip)

This mod contains 4 ships, 1 fighter wing (+3 variations), 14 weapons (+2 built-ins), 6 ship systems, 2 built-in hull mods, and 4 missions.  This mod is fully integrated with ShaderLib and has material maps, normal maps, and surface maps for all sprites.  This mod also contains campaign integration for Starsector+ and is Exerelin-compatible.  The Knights Templar do not have vanilla campaign integration; you must use Starsector+ or Exerelin or play Uomoz's Sector (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=1799.0) to use them in the campaign.


Gameplay
  • Very powerful and versatile
  • High hull strength, heavy armor, powerful passive shields
  • Very expensive and difficult to capture; less effective when not used by Templars
  • Extremely powerful, high-flux, high-OP weapons
  • Slow, below-average maneuverability, but often have mobility ship systems
  • Excellent turret coverage
  • Extremely dangerous at high flux levels; Priwen Burst is a devastating AoE system based on flux level
  • Vulnerable during short windows of opportunity (such as after a Priwen Burst)


Credits
Development, Scripting: Dark.Revenant
Artwork, Sound Effects: Cycerin
Design, Lore: Dark.Revenant and Cycerin
Backgrounds: Tartiflette


Change Log
Version 0.9 (August 31, 2014):
- Initial release
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: Cycerin on August 31, 2014, 03:42:53 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/lODnBOr.gif)
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: mendonca on August 31, 2014, 04:10:14 AM
Managed to get a quick go with the Paladin.

Yeah. Heh. It's quite good.  :o
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: ValkyriaL on August 31, 2014, 05:34:09 AM
Oh man, my faction feels so extremely overpowered right now, they fight on even terms with these guys if they have equal deployment points on the board. my medium carrier for example will beat the templar frigate by itself, with only a 3 DP difference. I think my factions huge focus on point defence is a contributing factor, nothing the templars fire at them that even resembles a missile gets even remotely close. :-\

Have to say, a Paragon with templar weapons...that is scary...
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: TaLaR on August 31, 2014, 08:10:40 AM
Interesting how templars are weaker to some rarer niche weapons.

Fragmentation weapons - as far as i understand templars absorb any damage at same rate, and these have best raw dps/efficiency.
Beams - any hit is hard flux so their main weakness is negated. Also can't be reflected.

On the other hand Kinetics are quite useless. Maybe even too much so.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on August 31, 2014, 08:55:49 AM
I have to ask, how am I supposed to use the right click system properly? Half the time I end up overloading
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: Cycerin on August 31, 2014, 09:56:55 AM
You'll get a feel for it.

While the Priwen Burst is charging, you are invulnerable. This means you can use it as a split-second phase cloak at low flux, and also "pump up" your flux level on demand. The chargeup time and blast strength both depend on your flux level upon using the system. The system also builds flux when you use it, meaning you will indeed overload if you use it at very high flux.

The blast gets stronger in every way (area of effect, damage, knockback) the more flux you have when you cast it. The idea at high flux is to use it at near-max flux, so you get max power and get to vent or retreat after everyone gets crippled by the massive EMP, knockback and damage.

Generally you'll be safe if you don't use Priwen over 80% flux, but the "sweetspot" right before you overload is very rewarding...

Importantly, your Lattice Shield is disabled for a while after using Priwen Burst, depending on how strong the blast was. This makes it important to disable as many enemies as possible. Of course, if you're already at super high flux, your shields won't be online anyway, so you might as well just gun for it.

Managing Priwen usage is much the same as managing your shield on a standard ship, but it's a lot more aggressive in nature. When flying a Templar ship, your overwhelming power is the best defense.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 31, 2014, 10:13:54 AM
Interesting how templars are weaker to some rarer niche weapons.

Fragmentation weapons - as far as i understand templars absorb any damage at same rate, and these have best raw dps/efficiency.
Beams - any hit is hard flux so their main weakness is negated. Also can't be reflected.

On the other hand Kinetics are quite useless. Maybe even too much so.

Their shield does in fact respect weapon types but to a less dramatic degree.  Frag damage is indeed around 25% on them, but approaches 100% when they have no armor.  HE is more like 67%, but drops to 33% when the armor is stripped off.  Kinetic does closer to 150% and approaches 300% when the armor is gone.  Beams do hard flux damage to them, that is true.

In other words, kinetic damage is one of the best types to use for popping shields, and is capable of chipping their health to death when their armor is gone, as well.  High explosive is basically useless unless their shields are down, but is the best way to strip off their armor.  Fragmentation damage is devastating on stripped Templar ships, but is not very good if they're at full.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: TaLaR on August 31, 2014, 11:20:47 AM
Interesting how templars are weaker to some rarer niche weapons.

Fragmentation weapons - as far as i understand templars absorb any damage at same rate, and these have best raw dps/efficiency.
Beams - any hit is hard flux so their main weakness is negated. Also can't be reflected.

On the other hand Kinetics are quite useless. Maybe even too much so.

Their shield does in fact respect weapon types but to a less dramatic degree.  Frag damage is indeed around 25% on them, but approaches 100% when they have no armor.  HE is more like 67%, but drops to 33% when the armor is stripped off.  Kinetic does closer to 150% and approaches 300% when the armor is gone.  Beams do hard flux damage to them, that is true.

In other words, kinetic damage is one of the best types to use for popping shields, and is capable of chipping their health to death when their armor is gone, as well.  High explosive is basically useless unless their shields are down, but is the best way to strip off their armor.  Fragmentation damage is devastating on stripped Templar ships, but is not very good if they're at full.

Oh, i see. That's why fragmentation based designs were only manageable (but not really impressive) against Templars in practice...
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: mendonca on August 31, 2014, 12:27:32 PM
Just for fun, the Priwen Burst in the Simulator vs. a load of fighters / bombers ...

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1PlZfybeso

BOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!
[close]

This is incredible work, by the way chaps. The quality of all the aspects of the mod are phenomenal.

Is the holy charge suppose to fix your course ... I seem to be able to retain the ability to manoeuvre? (Note on the side says 'Jets disabled', which suggests I should have to go straight ?)
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: Sundog on August 31, 2014, 01:00:13 PM
I just spent a few hours playing the missions. Looks like I've been playing Templar ships all wrong by staying under %25 flux all the time and rarely using the Priwen Burst. That's a really cool offence/defense dynamic. You guys did a great job with this faction. I love the crazy weapons and the alternate play style created by the crazy hullmods and ship systems. Looking forward to that dreadnought  :)

I think the difficulty of the missions might need some adjustment. I beat Smite and Excommunication on the first try, and got a %98 on At All Costs on the third try. Still haven't managed to beat Massacre though.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: Sabaton on August 31, 2014, 01:32:41 PM
Well I seem to be the ever unlucky bastard 'cause my fps stop existing the moment I fire their medium red laser weapon and the problem persists even in the main menu.
I made sure I have all the latest versions of the required mods (basic shaderlib version).
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 31, 2014, 01:37:59 PM
Well I seem to be the ever unlucky bastard 'cause my fps stop existing the moment I fire their medium red laser weapon and the problem persists even in the main menu.
I made sure I have all the latest versions of the required mods (basic shaderlib version).

templarShaders.json in Templars\data\config.  Set enableFlares to false.  If their shields also give you framerate problems, set enableShieldOverlay to false as well.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: Cycerin on August 31, 2014, 01:38:59 PM
Thanks a lot guys. ;D

Just for fun, the Priwen Burst in the Simulator vs. a load of fighters / bombers ...

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1PlZfybeso

BOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!
[close]

This is incredible work, by the way chaps. The quality of all the aspects of the mod are phenomenal.

Is the holy charge suppose to fix your course ... I seem to be able to retain the ability to manoeuvre? (Note on the side says 'Jets disabled', which suggests I should have to go straight ?)

Hell yes, nice use of the Crusader.

The Holy Charge tooltip is an oversight, being able to maneuver freely is intended.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: Sabaton on August 31, 2014, 02:00:28 PM
Sadly doing either of those things causes an instant null. Whatever, they would have crushed me anyway.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 31, 2014, 02:06:45 PM
Sadly doing either of those things causes an instant null. Whatever, they would have crushed me anyway.

That's a bug.  It'll be fixed later today.
Title: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 31, 2014, 11:19:42 PM
Small service update...

http://youtu.be/or9yA7gIK2k


(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.1.zip)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.1 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.1.zip)
Download Mirror (https://www.mediafire.com/?h9sz8gch622klg3)
(Requires LazyLib 1.9b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0)) (Updated!)
(Requires ShaderLib Alpha v1.7 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Requires Starsector+ 1.10.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0) (Updated!) or soon to be included in Uomoz's Sector 1.4 Dev (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0))

We also recommend Version Checker 1.1b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.1 (August 31, 2014):
- Mission balance adjusted
- Fleets no longer have an absurd repair chance
- Fleets repair much more quickly; you won't find a Templar fleet below 50% repair anymore
- Fixed crash when disabling shaders
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Sabaton on September 02, 2014, 12:37:20 AM
Everything works like a charm now but I have a question:

The shields don't block all the damage, is it intended?
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 02, 2014, 01:05:21 AM
Everything works like a charm now but I have a question:

The shields don't block all the damage, is it intended?

Yes.  At higher flux the damage bleed through is worse.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Cycerin on September 02, 2014, 06:30:17 AM
It also means losing armor can be devastating for Templars because the "chip damage" through your shields will start going straight to hull, even at 0% flux.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Sabaton on September 02, 2014, 11:46:50 AM
You guys weren't joking when you said their best defense is their overwhelming offense, you can't drag things out with these boys.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Farlarzia on September 06, 2014, 04:10:29 PM
I think I'm in love the the Juger Heavy Cannon. Probably my favourite out of the 4 large weapons, its a big flux intensive for low damage compared to the other 2, but for its decreased OP cost, and its ability to perform as a very powerful AOE pd, shooting powerful lightning strikes to everything around it, makes it excellent against missile swarms, which it eats with ease, and has a similar effect on fighters. All this while also being able to deliver a very powerful direct hit to a specific target, while also getting a few bolts of on them as well.

Overall I'm really enjoying this mod, I can see a whole lot of effort went into it, and it really shows.

A couple of small things I noticed however:
The blue text to show lattice absorption is really hard to see while the lattice itself is up.
Because the flux is constantly rising and dropping, it means CR is constantly degrading on the frigates, even while not doing anything. Not sure if this is intended.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 06, 2014, 04:54:59 PM
A couple of small things I noticed however:
The blue text to show lattice absorption is really hard to see while the lattice itself is up.
Because the flux is constantly rising and dropping, it means CR is constantly degrading on the frigates, even while not doing anything. Not sure if this is intended.

Can't do anything about the blue text.  It will get better when shaders stop drawing over the UI in the next update, however.

Yes, I realized that happened to the frigates, so I gave them an extra long timer.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Farlarzia on September 07, 2014, 04:52:16 AM
Ah, I hadn't noticed the extended timer, good stuff.

Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Wyvern on September 07, 2014, 11:01:06 PM
Some feedback on Templar weapon balance, from the perspective of someone playing Starsector+ with (most) of the factions turned on: Templar weapon balance is weird.

The Merced Cannon is pretty much the king of small energy weapons - while it seems to have high flux costs at first glance, it's actually far more flux-efficient than any normal projectile-based energy weapon.  If you don't need point defense or overwhelming burst damage (i.e. antimatter blasters), use Merced Cannons, because they're just better.

The Rhon Laser, by contrast is... not really competitive.  Yeah, okay, it's an HIL in a small slot (with reduced range and ordnance point cost)... but it costs 450 flux/s to fire, versus the HIL's 250, and still doesn't do hard flux - as a result, I've yet to find any good use for these.  The Merced Cannon is just better.

Suggestion: Increase Merced Cannon flux costs to ~150% of DPS, in line with vanilla projectile energy weapons.  Reduce Rhon Laser flux costs to ~100% of weapon DPS, in line with vanilla beam weaponry.  Slightly increases Rhon Laser ordnance point costs - 14 or 15 is probably reasonable.  Or, alternatively, find a way to make the Rhon Laser deal hard flux versus shields.

Medium Energy Weapons: By the vagaries of chance, I've yet to acquire either a Longinus or Sentenia to play with, but it looks like these repeat the same oddities as the Merced and Rhon, just writ slightly larger.  And it's not clear, but it looks like the Heavy Blaster might be competitive with either of them.

Large Energy Weapons: None of these perform well as primary guns - which is kindof fair, given that the Templar ships don't use them that way.  However, the combination of niche utility and extreme ordnance point costs render these weapons generally less effective than vanilla equivalents - the Plasma Cannon outperforms both the Joyeuse and the Juger at all roles save annihilation of large numbers of fighters / missiles.  (Though the Joyeuse would be significantly more effective outside of Starsector+ - the more aggressive venting AI means it's all but impossible to use it at range; by the time it's done reloading, your target has vented and has their shields back up.  Which means you have to be close enough for the rest of your weapons to support it, at which point the plasma cannon does similar damage for significantly fewer ordnance points.)

Suggestion: Increase Juger damage-on-main-hit by about 25%.  Reduce Joyeuse ordnance point cost by five, or increase rate of fire (possibly paired with slightly reduced damage to keep the DPS from increasing by too much).

Ballistic Weaponry: These are all actually quite good - though their ammunition is a bit limited, especially for the Arondight.  They do need to be paired up with something else in order to punch through armor, but if you've got ballistic mounts, that's quite doable; a few heavy maulers and you're pretty well set.  ...And yet I still use needlers over the Templar weapons, because I tend to fight while heavily outnumbered and want the extra ammo.  Still, these are usable.

Missiles: The templar missiles are... impressive, but generally impractical, due to a combination of extreme ordnance point costs and low ammunition.  I'm really not sure what to suggest, here, however; on paper, the ordnance point costs seem reasonable in comparison to similar vanilla weaponry...  Maybe I just don't like missiles.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 08, 2014, 01:31:53 AM
A Plasma Cannon shoots three bolts at 700 range for 750 damage each, totaling a burst of 2250 damage, with 652.5 DPS and 900 flux/second, and uses up 30 OP.
A Joyeuse Fractal Laser shoots six bolts, which can randomly split into more bolts (at most ranges at least eight will hit the target) at 1200 range for 700 damage each, totaling a burst of at least 4200 damage, with 600 DPS and 857.1 flux/second, and uses up 40 OP.

You're buying vastly superior range and burst damage, plus the ability to power through usual obstructions like fighters, missiles, and asteroids, and also get through shields without wasting all the damage on an overload (since only one or two bolts will hit while the others pass through to the hull), for very slightly lower DPS and an extra 10 OP.  I don't see a reason to buff it.


A Merced Cannon shoots 60-damage bolts at 550 range, with 300 DPS and 375 flux/second, and uses up 10 OP.
An IR Pulse Laser shoots 35-damage bolts at 500 range, with 105 DPS and 150 flux/second, and uses up 6 OP.
A Pulse Laser shoots 75-damage bolts at 600 range, with 225 DPS and 330 flux/second, and uses up 10 OP.

You have a point with how much of a monster this weapon can be.  I don't think increasing the flux cost is the answer; rather, I'll be decreasing its range to 500 and lowering its damage to 50 per bolt, bringing it to 250 DPS.  Then, compared to a Pulse Laser, it has slightly better damage at the cost of worse range, armor penetration, and flux efficiency.


A Rhon Laser operates at a range of 500 to deal 300 DPS, costing 450 flux/second, and using up 12 OP.
A Tactical Laser operates at a range of 600 to deal 75 DPS, costing 75 flux/second, and using up 5 OP.
A Phase Beam operates at a range of 700 to deal 175 DPS (150 DPS in vanilla) and 20 EPS, costing 160 flux/second, and using up 12 OP.
A High Intensity Laser operates at a range of 1250 to deal 300 DPS (250 DPS in vanilla), costing 250 flux/second, and using up 20 OP.

Compared to vanilla beams, the Rhon Laser is in an entirely different world.  It has no charge up/down time either, making it more efficient than either of those other beams in any situation that doesn't require continuous fire.  Compared to a Phase Beam, its only disadvantages are a shorter range and a large efficiency penalty; this is a small price for being a slot smaller and nearly twice as powerful.  The Rhon Laser isn't designed to be a primary assault weapon; it's an unstoppable point defense beam.  I guarantee no fighter will last against these things.  Slap an IPDAI on the ship and you have the best small-slot point defense weapon in the game.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Wyvern on September 08, 2014, 10:00:03 AM
A Plasma Cannon shoots three bolts at 700 range for 750 damage each, totaling a burst of 2250 damage, with 652.5 DPS and 900 flux/second, and uses up 30 OP.
A Joyeuse Fractal Laser shoots six bolts, which can randomly split into more bolts (at most ranges at least eight will hit the target) at 1200 range for 700 damage each, totaling a burst of at least 4200 damage, with 600 DPS and 857.1 flux/second, and uses up 40 OP.

You're buying vastly superior range and burst damage, plus the ability to power through usual obstructions like fighters, missiles, and asteroids, and also get through shields without wasting all the damage on an overload (since only one or two bolts will hit while the others pass through to the hull), for very slightly lower DPS and an extra 10 OP.  I don't see a reason to buff it.
The problem - and the reason I find the Plasma Cannon to be the superior weapon - is that, despite that three-shot-salvo, the plasma cannon isn't really a burst damage weapon; it reloads fairly quickly between salvos and can, on its own, keep up pressure on a shielded target.  The Joyeuse, by contrast, cannot - which pretty much entirely negates its range advantage against any serious (cruiser or larger) targets, since you have to have secondary weaponry also in-range or your target will just take the hit and then vent, over and over again.  This is explicitly an issue with its use in Starsector+, however; against vanilla AI targets that don't vent as aggressively, the Joyeuse is probably usable.  (I say probably, because I haven't actually tested.)  Also, FYI, the plasma cannon is 32 OP, not 30.

On the topic of the Rhon Laser: I'm actually much happier with the BRDY Argus Laser for point defense - it's not going to waste huge chunks of flux on shielded targets (due to only firing at larger targets when it's at full ammo), and it's very nearly as strong against fighters and missiles.  That said, I have now found a good niche for the Rhon and the Longinus: they are excellent weapons for hunting down Templar ships.  I'll still swap them back out before any serious battle against factions with normal shields, but that's okay.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 08, 2014, 12:31:34 PM
You're not supposed to be able to just kite back and kill anything with a single weapon, 1v1.  Have an ally fight with you or something.

And the Rhon "wasting huge chunks of flux on shielded targets" is the point of the weapon; it can drill through shields (and maul fighters) and ride up the flux of its targets very quickly.  If a beam is firing on a ship that has enough dissipation to ignore it, then just turn the weapon group off.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Nanao-kun on September 08, 2014, 03:23:05 PM
I use the Rhon Laser as PD too, on the Imaginos-class! Take that, you damn missile swarms!
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Farlarzia on September 08, 2014, 04:01:55 PM
I can too confirm, they make absolute powerhouses of a PD system, but its generally allocating the OP to them, its a big commitment, the hullmod, the increased OP for less general DPS and range, with a little more flux IIRC. I generally wouldn't use it unless it was for a designated PD focused ship, as they already have pretty intensive free PD.

I feel that although it is very good, it is underwhelmed because of this. I'm not sure what exactly to suggest, but I do feel they are a bit uncompetitive compared to other options.

Regarding the longinus, I feel much the same about it, but however I feel it is even less so, as the Sentenia outshines it again IMO, and due to it being a medium mount, is unable to be used as PD, making me very reluctant to consider it as a serious armament.

Edit: I also have some mixed feeling about the missile weapons, as despite their amazing stats, due to there classification of missile, and the low ammo count they posses, they often seem to do very little in the AI hands, often wasted at the start of the fight without being utilised properly. However, they seem to be rather surprisingly good at taking down templar ships themselves, as they generally don't get shot down, and there are no "hard" shields to tank it, breaching your amour often leading to a quick demise.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 08, 2014, 04:38:08 PM
The Rhon isn't just a PD weapon; it's also just generally good at killing small ships, especially frigates.

The Longinus is the most powerful beam weapon in the game, coming out to 600 sustained DPS.  As soon as a ship's shield is down, it can immediately start to melt straight through its armor and deal a tremendous amount of damage.  You can't dodge it, you can't block it (unless you have really good dissipation), and it's hard to even outrange it.  The Longinus can absolutely wreck phase ships; they immediately take damage as they unphase and have no way of avoiding being badly hurt each time they do.  The Longinus is also basically a one-stop solution to taking out frigates; taking a Longinus for more than a few seconds is a death sentence for any frigate-sized ship.

Clarents are useful because they cannot miss and are guaranteed to hurt the target, no matter what their shield level is.  Tanking it on the shields raises flux a lot, tanking it on armor destroys that armor.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Wyvern on September 08, 2014, 05:47:45 PM
You're not supposed to be able to just kite back and kill anything with a single weapon, 1v1.  Have an ally fight with you or something.
So apparently I'm "doing it wrong" by my normal tactics of flying a solo Apogee?  Hm.  Nope, works for me.  (Oh, and if you think you can get away with "just kiting back and killing anything", please, be my guest and try it yourself; it's not that simple.)  But thanks, this attitude means I can just ignore the Templar large energy weapons unless I'm outfitting a Paragon or something.

And the Rhon "wasting huge chunks of flux on shielded targets" is the point of the weapon; it can drill through shields (and maul fighters) and ride up the flux of its targets very quickly.  If a beam is firing on a ship that has enough dissipation to ignore it, then just turn the weapon group off.
Given the choice between a weapon that wrecks fighters but requires aggressive micromanaging of weapon groups (rhon laser), and one that wrecks fighters and can just be left on autofire (argus laser), or one that still wrecks fighters and still doesn't require aggressive micromanaging of weapon groups and also works well against larger ships' shields (merced cannon), I'm going to take one of the latter two.  So... it's not really that the rhon is bad, necessarily; it's that for all but the most niche of roles, there exist better options.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Cycerin on September 08, 2014, 06:48:52 PM
I hardly understand why you lump the Rhon in with the Argus of all weapons, the Argus is a missile sweeper PD that can kill unshielded fighters, while the Rhon is a multipurpose support weapon that can double as PD. The Argus will need help to kill a shielded fighter, while the Rhon can melt through basically anything that isnt backed up by a deep flux pool.

A more relevant comparison would be rhon vs. tac laser or rhon vs. sunjet PDE, since they're all weapons that melt fighters but cant PD without a hullmod. If you compare out of the specific situation of outfitting your own flagship it gets a lil different.

As for the Joyeuse, it's got long range which is useful because it brings its vast burst damage to bear on squishy targets that try to stay out of range. However, if you look at the weapon objectively, its biggest quality is the fact that it simply deals a massive amount of burst damage. Which makes it best when backed up by weapons that deal sustained DPS, such as on the Paladin in Smite, rather than on a glass cannon type outfit that focuses most of the power on that lone weapon.. especially considering you might also be looking at a situation where you lack the Templar -50% weapon flux.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Wyvern on September 13, 2014, 09:27:39 AM
Some further commentary, now that I've acquired a decent supply of medium templar weapons:

The Longinus is usable - you kinda have to treat it like a plasma cannon and only have it running when you need it, and it's still something of a niche weapon - but that niche is "make fighters go away", which is a rather useful one.

The Sentenia is - much to my surprise - rather less useful; 95% of the time, a heavy blaster will be better.  My flagship is currently using one of these anyway - because, in this case, I don't need the heavy blaster's superior burst / anti-armor damage (I have a plasma cannon for that), and because the way the medium weapon arcs are set up on an Apogee, it's actually really useful to have that homing ability for hitting targets in front of you.  Nothing else I've outfitted has been able to make good use of this weapon, though.

I still find the Rhon to be something of an impractical joke, though.  It's simply too expensive for what it does - either in terms of flux, or in terms of ordnance points.  If you mount a bunch and add advanced optics and point defense AI and enough vents to support the whole mess... congratulations, you have no ordnance points left for anything else.  You can turn, say, an Odyssey into a bulwark that's essentially immune to fighters (as long as you manage your flux carefully - even a capital ship can't support these things without straining)... and completely incapable of dealing with anything else.  Which is not actually useful compared to an Odyssey that mounts a more sane point defense configuration and actually has ordnance points to spare for offensive weaponry.
The only place I've found these to be at all useful is in specific anti-templar variants, due to the templar shields taking hard flux from beams.

I've also tested some heavier ships equipped with Templar large energy weapons; as expected, once you have two Joyeuse Fractal Lasers, they suddenly turn from "ha, ha, vent flux, you do nothing" into a viable heavy weapon that can take down capital ships in relatively short order.  At least as long as you put them on alternating fire.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Wyvern on September 13, 2014, 09:38:39 AM
Oh, and one further comment on beams: I suspect you tested the Rhon and the Longinus primarily against low tech targets, given your statements about them making frigates melt.  Low tech frigates do indeed melt; high tech ones are much less vulnerable, and against anything from Medusa on up, you're better off not using beams (unless you're carrying a truly overwhelming number of beam weapons.)
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Nanao-kun on September 13, 2014, 10:21:00 AM
On the other hand I am enjoying these weapons and am having tons of fun! :D
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Cycerin on September 13, 2014, 10:50:25 AM
Oh, and one further comment on beams: I suspect you tested the Rhon and the Longinus primarily against low tech targets, given your statements about them making frigates melt.  Low tech frigates do indeed melt; high tech ones are much less vulnerable, and against anything from Medusa on up, you're better off not using beams (unless you're carrying a truly overwhelming number of beam weapons.)

Its mostly due to the fact that they will disallow shield toggling, and even a Tempest will max out on soft flux if it keeps firing while tanking a Longinus or two. As you say, high tech frigates can deal with it better.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 13, 2014, 12:20:13 PM
Keep in mind that these weapons are designed primarily for being at their best on Templar ships.  Especially when the hostile Templar ships have 50% weapon flux reduction, every weapon is deadly.  The idea is to make these weapons not automatically be the best in the game; while they should be really good and powerful on Templar ships, for everyone else they have pros and cons like every other weapon.

The Sentenia is best used as a general-purpose kills-everything cannon.  It can't punch armor as well as a Heavy Blaster or Heavy Mauler, it can't kill fighters and drones as well as a Longinus, Heavy Burst Laser, or Dual Flak, it can't reach as far as a Hypervelocity Driver or Heavy Mauler, can't track as well as a Salamander Pod, etc.  However, it can do all of those tasks, if not at the highest level, at least competently.  It can punch through armor over time and deal some pretty nasty DPS, it can kill fighters and drones, it can reach pretty dang far, it can track around and hit targets that are trying to dodge, and more.  Having such multipurpose use is why it works well on your Apogee, which needs to rely on them for most of its combat roles.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Nanao-kun on September 13, 2014, 01:47:39 PM
If only I could fit an Excalibur Core onto a Blackrock Karkinos! :P
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Wyvern on September 13, 2014, 03:04:29 PM
Keep in mind that these weapons are designed primarily for being at their best on Templar ships.  Especially when the hostile Templar ships have 50% weapon flux reduction, every weapon is deadly.  The idea is to make these weapons not automatically be the best in the game; while they should be really good and powerful on Templar ships, for everyone else they have pros and cons like every other weapon.
Definitely a good design goal - the problem I have is that, for a few of these weapons, the cons are just too much.  When even Templar ships perform better with vanilla armaments in place of some of their unique weapons...

The Sentenia...  Having such multipurpose use is why it works well on your Apogee, which needs to rely on them for most of its combat roles.
Actually?  No.  The Heavy Blaster is better than the Sentenia for almost everything you listed; despite the slight homing of the Sentenia, the Heavy Blaster is actually better at hitting fighters, for example (in part because it actually goes where you fire it and won't try to peel off and home in on random other targets).  There are only four situations where the Sentenia has any clear advantage at all: if you have awkward firing arcs where you're going to need to hit things that are at the edge of the arc, if you're capped on vents and need the Sentenia's flux efficiency, if you're trying to fire through a really dense cloud of missiles, or if you really need the slight range advantage.  Templar vessels - especially with their excalibur cores intact - tend to perform much better with heavy blasters.  (The only ones I'd even consider the Sentenia on are their destroyers & carriers, since they're lacking any sort of mobility system and need all the range they can get.)

As with the Merced Cannon, I'd suggest significantly reducing the Sentenia's flux efficiency - the difference here is that it then needs some sort of extra bonus so that it doesn't just totally lose to the heavy blaster; I'd probably try 100 damage per shot, (boosting it to 460 DPS), add maybe 30 EMP damage per shot, and increase the flux costs to around 700 flux/s.

That said, I'm now done here - I've given you my analysis, and you can use or ignore it as you see fit.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: ValkyriaL on September 13, 2014, 03:28:00 PM
Wish i'd get eyes like that on my stuff once in a while. :)
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 13, 2014, 03:32:31 PM
Compared to the heavy blaster it does more DPS and uses less flux and is easier to hit with, and even has slightly longer range.  The only real disadvantages are armor penetration and OP.  I don't think the heavy blaster is outright better.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Cycerin on September 13, 2014, 03:33:44 PM
Sentenia will mow down literally any target in the game, including stuff spread across several targets like fighter wings. Heavy Blaster offers very good flux efficiency on templar ships though
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: pigreko on September 13, 2014, 07:23:44 PM
this mod is very interesting. I really love the theme, and the mechanics are also very intriguing. Here my feedback:

The Sententia and Merced sprites look somehow out of place on templar ships. I mean, when I look at them on an archbishop or a paladin, "I feel" like they almost look if they are not themed at all with the mod.

All the systems seem to work with the idea of being melee, and I found that the "flux pulse" pwnyr poweroverwhelming kamehameha signature right click spell, is an epic frigate/fighter/missile swarm counter. But then having medium to high flux kills the shield efficiency. Shouldn't the burst remove some flux? as it is now I led to believe the stock held out performs the templar shield+burst in every encounter involving big ships.

As an after thought, I would very like to see more hidden weapon mounts on those ships, like the built-in pd system. Just for all the little mounts of course, so we can appreciate the beauty of those pure and proud vessels.

Where is the crusade commander? I wish to play a capital ship sized templar ship with 2 or 3 large mounts to actually make some raw use of all those wonderful energy weapons.

Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: JohnDoe on September 13, 2014, 08:47:16 PM
But then having medium to high flux kills the shield efficiency
I think that's the whole point, it's a trade-off between letting less damage leak through shield and being able to use a more powerful AoE EMP weapon.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: pigreko on September 14, 2014, 10:54:57 AM
But then having medium to high flux kills the shield efficiency
I think that's the whole point, it's a trade-off between letting less damage leak through shield and being able to use a more powerful AoE EMP weapon.

Of course, I understand the point, but versus a group of destroyers or versus a capital ship, I feel the system is counter productive. Well the point is: I wish for them to be even more powerful, cause I love the synergy with the pulse: absorb damage and fire your weapons, rise to a not efficient level, discharge the flux in a glorious explosion while lowering your flux level therefore keeping your shield useful.

The amount of flux lowered could also not be that big, maybe percentage based? It would just synergies soooo well.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Cycerin on September 14, 2014, 11:10:09 AM
The reason Priwen burst builds flux instead of reducing it is that we don't want it to be a no-brainer to just use the system almost every time it's available. You'll have to judge whether or not it'll be worth it, if you'll overload from using it, etc.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Toxcity on September 14, 2014, 11:31:39 AM
Of course, I understand the point, but versus a group of destroyers or versus a capital ship, I feel the system is counter productive. Well the point is: I wish for them to be even more powerful, cause I love the synergy with the pulse: absorb damage and fire your weapons, rise to a not efficient level, discharge the flux in a glorious explosion while lowering your flux level therefore keeping your shield useful.

The amount of flux lowered could also not be that big, maybe percentage based? It would just synergies soooo well.

It would be fun to play with, but imagine fighting against it.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Farlarzia on September 14, 2014, 11:37:25 AM
*ahem* I think that would be totally fair and balanced, you should definitely put that out ASAP, hopefully before that totally unrelated tournament starts. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Auraknight on September 19, 2014, 03:03:12 PM
I personally am loveing this mod. Only thing that's killing me about it is the AI relations
the KNIGHT fleets (Dark green) and Templar (Cyan) are both from the same group, right? the green controls Eden, with it's flavor text, and base name, convinces me it's the homeworld.  and Cyan doesn't seem to have one, far as I've seen, so they should be on the same side, correct? (I mean, they have a planet, but no base, which kinda sucks...)

But this seems to not be the case! the two will go after each-other, just as if the other was nothing more then a pirate!
(Not to mention the KNIGHT fleets NEVER have a Templar ship unless the've captured it from battle, and the ships are not available in the stores, never-mind the weapons.)
-Edit:
Only thing I can think of is if the dark green is Ludd? but then why would they have fleets with Knight? I'm just overal confused >.<
it says in the name it's the Knights Templar, so why do the fight? Or am I missing something here?
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Farlarzia on September 19, 2014, 03:13:18 PM
I think the green's you are referring to are the Knights of Ludd.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Auraknight on September 19, 2014, 03:15:57 PM
I think the green's you are referring to are the Knights of Ludd.
See, that's what I thought too, but the Ludd Jihad fleet still spawns in it's sandy colour. (Not sure if it attacks the dark greens, haven't seen them encounter outright yet.)
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 19, 2014, 03:19:26 PM
There are three Ludd factions.  Church of Galactic Redemption, Luddic Path, and the Knights of Ludd.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: MShadowy on September 19, 2014, 03:29:32 PM
I think the green's you are referring to are the Knights of Ludd.
See, that's what I thought too, but the Ludd Jihad fleet still spawns in it's sandy colour. (Not sure if it attacks the dark greens, haven't seen them encounter outright yet.)

The Knights of Ludd are a vanilla faction that has not yet formally been added to the campaign.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Auraknight on September 19, 2014, 03:34:03 PM
I think the green's you are referring to are the Knights of Ludd.
See, that's what I thought too, but the Ludd Jihad fleet still spawns in it's sandy colour. (Not sure if it attacks the dark greens, haven't seen them encounter outright yet.)

There are three Ludd factions.  Church of Galactic Redemption, Luddic Path, and the Knights of Ludd.
Ah, thanks. I just found it odd how the templrs where fighting a fleet I thought to be a part of there fraction >.< Sorry!
The Knights of Ludd are a vanilla faction that has not yet formally been added to the campaign.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Asauski on September 26, 2014, 01:54:35 PM
You will place new ship models in this mod?
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Sabaton on September 26, 2014, 02:33:42 PM
You will place new ship models in this mod?

 They're planning 1 more ship, a supercap ship.
 I'm eager to see it.   ;D
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on September 27, 2014, 02:15:33 AM
You will place new ship models in this mod?

 They're planning 1 more ship, a supercap ship.
 I'm eager to see it.   ;D
You and me both! *drools*
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Asauski on September 29, 2014, 01:21:15 PM
what is the method you use to make coding in java ?
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 29, 2014, 04:07:23 PM
what is the method you use to make coding in java ?

Typing code into an IDE, compiling the code, and then debugging the code.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Chroma on October 03, 2014, 03:28:07 PM
I absolutely love this mod so far!

I had a blast trying out the Templar in the missions. I was wondering; is there any way you could make an option where you're essentially a part of the Templar? I would imagine the only real way to balance it so that it didn't get boring as far as difficulty went ((Note: Lack thereof)) would be to reduce the amount of AI templar spawns so that you're typically all on your own, make it that you cannot trade with any port except for one that's made in Antioch for the "Templar player" game mode, and that everyone starts out hostile to you.

It would be fun to be the most OP faction in the game... yet you have so much stacked against you ((As far as I can tell the Templar don't have much in the form of getting supplies, keeping supplies in their fleets easilly or crew)) that it actually makes it hard. You'd have to capture things like Castles and those other supply-granting things, or maybe there are Templar ships that are good for logistics that i'm not aware of.

Being religious fanatics that everyone hates in space games whose ships are EXCEEDINGLY powerful but exceedingly difficult to field is so much fun XD
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: HELMUT on October 03, 2014, 03:48:04 PM
DR didn't planned Templars as a playable faction, at least not in SS+.

Maybe when Exerelin will update its compatibility with the faction then maybe we'll be able to toy with Templar ships. Otherwise it's very unlikely.
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Aklyon on October 13, 2014, 01:15:29 PM
Is there a difference if you play them in a campaign fight instead of a mission fight?
Title: Re: [0.6.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.1
Post by: Farlarzia on October 13, 2014, 02:09:18 PM
If playing in campaign the excalibur drive doesn't work.
Title: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.2
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 11, 2014, 04:14:52 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/QR9n3PQ.png)

Welcome to the Holy Crusade!  There is now a fully-featured event where the Templars launch a crusade against a system.  You can join in to help the allies or start wreaking havoc on the system to get in good with the Templars.  Your contribution will be rewarded, but it will make enemies...

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.2 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.2.zip)
Download Mirror (https://www.mediafire.com/?j6kat5hfccucjmj)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0)) (Updated!)
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.01 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.0.5 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0))

We also recommend Version Checker 1.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.2 (November 11, 2014):
- Updated for Starsector 0.65a
- Compatibility adjustments for ShaderLib Beta
- Added Holy Crusade event and corresponding market data
- Price updates
- Prices, fuel usage, and other various stats updated to keep in line with 0.65
- Updated ship bounding polygons
- High Maintenance added to all ships
- Aegis Shield is now toggled rather than duration-bound
- Clarent MRM and ROLAND MIRV stats and appearance adjusted
- Clarent/ROLAND damage increased to 2000 from 1500
- Merced Cannon range lowered to 500 from 550; damage per shot lowered to 50 from 60 (DPS to 250 from 300)
- Priwen Burst Shield now damages missiles and asteroids
- Priwen Burst Shield now has a UI indicator for status and cooldown
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.2
Post by: ChronoWarden on November 11, 2014, 06:15:18 PM
Installed Starsector plus and its prerequisites and theyrun fine, but everytime i try to run this mod i get JSONObject "Logo" not found error. Any tips?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.2
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 11, 2014, 06:36:06 PM
Installed Starsector plus and its prerequisites and theyrun fine, but everytime i try to run this mod i get JSONObject "Logo" not found error. Any tips?

Something is screwy on your end.  I believe you are not actually using the latest version of The Knights Templar, which is 0.9.2.  You would only get that error if you are running the old version.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.2
Post by: ChronoWarden on November 12, 2014, 07:32:39 AM
Ah, danke, indeed I was using version 0.9.1. :D
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.2
Post by: Caconym on November 12, 2014, 10:32:00 AM
Most Templar ship variants crash the game on loading them in the mission refit screen with this error:
Code
281384 [Thread-5] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.O0OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO  - java.lang.NullPointerException
java.lang.NullPointerException
at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.refit.oOOO.Ö00000(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.refit.O00O.ø00000(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.refit.ManageVariantsDialog.actionPerformed(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.ui.thisnew.super(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.ui.null.processInput(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.ui.O0Oo.o00000(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.B.void.class$super(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.A.oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.Ò00000(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.O0OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.super(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$2.run(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
The only other mods I have enabled are ShaderLib and LazyLib.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.2
Post by: TimeDiver on November 12, 2014, 01:17:07 PM
Dark.Revenant, for the next update to this (whenever that happens), could you add a setting (or two, or more) to settings.json to control the frequency/magnitude of crusade events, to which I have noted from a number of posts drive up fleet numbers/sizes to levels that eat up far more RAM than they should?

As one of those poor sods who is stuck running a 32-bit OS (Windows 7 Professional), I can point to this mod as the most likely cause of my campaign saves failing to load after not even 2 months of in-game time, due to sheer number/size of fleets involved (already upped the memory allocation in vmparams and starsector.bat to '-Xms1024m -Xmx1024m', still won't load them).

Campaigns started without The Knights Templar loaded don't seem to suffer from this issue, although I do also have v0.3.2 of the ICE mod enabled, in addition to all three other (updated) integrated mods with Starsector+ v2.0.5, LazyWizard's Console Commands and Common Radar, as well as the requisite LazyLib and ShaderLib (all of which are the most recent versions).
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.2
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 12, 2014, 01:39:08 PM
Most Templar ship variants crash the game on loading them in the mission refit screen with this error:
<snip>
The only other mods I have enabled are ShaderLib and LazyLib.

That is a vanilla bug, unfortunately.  The game doesn't crash in dev mode when you select the variant.  I'll make a thread about this.

Dark.Revenant, for the next update to this (whenever that happens), could you add a setting (or two, or more) to settings.json to control the frequency/magnitude of crusade events, to which I have noted from a number of posts drive up fleet numbers/sizes to levels that eat up far more RAM than they should?

As one of those poor sods who is stuck running a 32-bit OS (Windows 7 Professional), I can point to this mod as the most likely cause of my campaign saves failing to load after not even 2 months of in-game time, due to sheer number/size of fleets involved (already upped the memory allocation in vmparams and starsector.bat to '-Xms1024m -Xmx1024m', still won't load them).

Campaigns started without The Knights Templar loaded don't seem to suffer from this issue, although I do also have v0.3.2 of the ICE mod enabled, in addition to all three other (updated) integrated mods with Starsector+ v2.0.5, LazyWizard's Console Commands and Common Radar, as well as the requisite LazyLib and ShaderLib (all of which are the most recent versions).

That's a good idea, though it could wind up making the Crusades less consistent.  I'll see what I can do.
Title: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 14, 2014, 03:00:07 AM
Surprise!

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.3 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.3.zip)
Download Mirror (https://www.mediafire.com/?jy1ho2rppal5j1d)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.01 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0))
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.0.6 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)

We also recommend Version Checker 1.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.3 (November 14, 2014)
- Holy Crusade frequency and scale are now controllable from settings.json
- Adjusted and improved Holy Crusade
- Captured/sold Templar ships now function at 100% capacity
- High Maintenance removed from Templar ships; replaced with Extremely High Maintenance
- There is now an exclusive market at Ascalon; gain a high reputation and you can enter
- Small bug fixes
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3
Post by: Nanao-kun on November 14, 2014, 12:35:29 PM
"- Captured/sold Templar ships now function at 100% capacity"

YES
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3
Post by: Histidine on November 14, 2014, 10:23:21 PM
- The Excalibur Core tooltip still says it melts down if the ship is disabled.

- Does the crusadeScale variable affect the size of response fleets? I'm assuming it does, but I've seen some unusually large fleets (at least 4-5 rows of ships in strategic map tooltip). I can't say for sure they don't show up with the Templar mod disabled, though.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 14, 2014, 11:27:03 PM
- The Excalibur Core tooltip still says it melts down if the ship is disabled.

- Does the crusadeScale variable affect the size of response fleets? I'm assuming it does, but I've seen some unusually large fleets (at least 4-5 rows of ships in strategic map tooltip). I can't say for sure they don't show up with the Templar mod disabled, though.

Nice catch.

No, it doesn't change size, only quantity.  Templar fleets, however, will become slightly weaker in addition to being less numerous.
Title: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 14, 2014, 11:40:20 PM
Very minor update, just fixed a couple bugs.

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.3b (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.3b.zip)
Download Mirror (https://www.mediafire.com/?2r1caabeb1t2wit)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.01 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0))
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.0.6 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0))

We also recommend Version Checker 1.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.3b (November 15, 2014)
- Fixed Aegis Shield AI
- Minor Crusade adjustments
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3b
Post by: Nori on November 17, 2014, 09:21:00 AM
I may be missing something, but how would you gain rep with the Templars if you can't trade with them and they offer no bounties?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3b
Post by: Tartiflette on November 17, 2014, 09:59:38 AM
You have to get in the crusaded systems and kill fleets, LOTS of fleets.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3b
Post by: LB on November 17, 2014, 12:26:21 PM
As a minor issue, there are so many asteroids in Antioch that the system map lags badly when you try to open it.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3b
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 17, 2014, 04:46:05 PM
As a minor issue, there are so many asteroids in Antioch that the system map lags badly when you try to open it.
Same here... The tac view takes a good 5 to 10 seconds to fully open on my system
Title: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3c
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 17, 2014, 10:37:36 PM
Performance update.  Hope it helps.

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.3c (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.3c.zip)
Download Mirror (https://www.mediafire.com/?n4ajwh5ehhuqoc2)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.01 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0))
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.0.6 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0))

We also recommend Version Checker 1.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.3c (November 18, 2014)
- Significantly reduced asteroid count in Antioch
- Crusade adjustments for consistency
- Small fixes here and there
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3c
Post by: Regularity on November 18, 2014, 03:11:17 PM
Since 0.9 you keep mentioning making tweaks to Crusade events, but don't exactly detail what sort of tweaks. Are you nerfing crusade size? Frequency? The AI defensive response to crusades? Just like some clarification on what's going on under the hood so it'll be easier to tell what is a bug versus what is intended regarding events ingame.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3c
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 18, 2014, 04:16:01 PM
Lots of magic numbers, coefficients, methods, etc.  All of the above.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3c
Post by: j01 on November 19, 2014, 01:19:51 AM
I only started using this mod since it was updated for the latest starsector version. Since I began using it, I've been experiencing rampant save game corruption where after playing for so long, trying to load a save results in the load progress bar screeching to a halt, and the game locking up until I get an ingame notice of failure to load the save, as if the save contains too much info to process, or something.

This problem persists even in 0.9.3c, and even with all other mods disabled which aren't prerequisites for this one. My computer is a beast with way, way more than enough RAM, CPU, and GPU power, and I've even tried running a Large Address Aware program on Starsector's executable, to no avail.

Is anyone else having this problem, or am I somehow doing something wrong? The save corruption seems inevitable.

[EDIT]: Upon further testing, I think I may be mistaken and SS+ mod is the actual culprit.

[EDIT EDIT]: I hadn't read the SS+ mod thread's last few pages before posting this. Apparently there is some kind of problem between SS+ and this mod, and it's known?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3c
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 19, 2014, 02:19:55 AM
Both mods are memory-heavy by their nature.  This is being fixed in the next Starsector version, but the next SS+ version should help.
Title: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 19, 2014, 03:00:53 AM
Finally got the Crusade dynamics under wraps.  If you are having memory problems, please understand that the culprit is not this mod, but rather SS+ itself.  The new update of SS+ resolves some of these issues, but most of it will come from the next Starsector update.

(http://i.imgur.com/rWYJMMa.png)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.3d (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.3d.zip)
Download Mirror (https://www.mediafire.com/?95ooxaw05fd69t2)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.01 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0))
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.0.7 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)

We also recommend Version Checker 1.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.3d (November 19, 2014)
- Crusade fleets arrive on time to distant systems (crusades longer in these cases)
- Crusade end reports are sector-wide and now list casualties for each side
- Knights Templar are now hostile with independents (should make better crusades)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3d
Post by: Regularity on November 19, 2014, 09:59:21 AM
Quote
Crusade end reports are sector-wide and now list casualties for each side

Just curious, is whether a crusade is considered successful based on casualties, or some other value (ship kill count, total credit value of ships killed)? Also, what about end-conditions; do they end after a fixed time passes, or keep going until some sort of score is reached?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 19, 2014, 10:54:12 AM
Crusades are time-based and the ending type is based, essentially, on the numerical difference of fleet points lost between the two sides.  Function is Morale = (TemplarLosses * 1.5 - AlliedLosses) / (200 * scale).  1 FP = 9 casualties.  If morale is -3 or less, it's a catastrophe; if morale is 1.5 or more, it's considered a rousing success.  The screenshot above was for a somewhat above-average crusade length of very above-average size in a highly-defended system, so those numbers are quite high.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3d
Post by: j01 on November 19, 2014, 11:20:00 AM
You're a very diligent and talented modder, and I appreciate your work.

I think this is my favorite mod, for both style and substance, and SS+ comes in at a close second.
Title: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 22, 2014, 05:15:28 PM
Fixed a rather nasty bug.

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.3e (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.3e.zip)
Download Mirror (https://www.mediafire.com/?64h88dx48tz1w4n)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.01 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0))
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)

We also recommend Version Checker 1.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.3e (November 22, 2014)
- Crusades no longer bug out when you load the game
- Crusade reputation hits are less fickle
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Asauski on November 25, 2014, 12:03:07 PM
hello. I know I have no participation in this mod, but I would like to give a small suggestion of new ships to him, and wanted you to take a look at these models. would like to help in some way.  :)

I really like to see new ships in this mod, but in a way that everyone can have, not only a few ships that I do on my PC.  :)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Nanao-kun on November 25, 2014, 12:33:31 PM
Templar kitbashes! First I've seen. :V
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Asauski on November 25, 2014, 12:43:07 PM
Really would like something new in this mod, especially new ships, something out of the campaign.

I do not think that new weapons would be needed now, for those that currently exist are very powerful and versatile.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 25, 2014, 12:57:55 PM
I don't think they need new ships either, they already have one for each, and soon to have a battleship(?), although, a second frigate wouldn't hurt. to many Jesuits. =I
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Cycerin on November 25, 2014, 12:58:30 PM
The first one you made is pretty damn cool. Good use of the angular plates on the Paladin sprite.

Me and DR have discussed some upcoming ship designs, but given the massive effort needed to create Templar content, it's not happening just yet.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Asauski on November 25, 2014, 01:10:18 PM
I understand. I looked at the codes and scripts of the Templar Knights and really are huge, by the way, I have a doubt out, what are those class files with a "$" at the end, ex.: excaliburcoreexplosion$1?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Spenz on November 25, 2014, 08:56:39 PM
If people are adverse to adding new ships for the Templar, what about introducing those from where, and whom, the Templar got their advanced tech from?  Could there be room for another OP race, one that is more powerful than the Templar and who are just as angry?  I mean the templar are fricken tough, but once you get a hold of their ships and tech, the playing field starts to even out quite a bit.  Granted, many Bothan's died to bring me my kitted Paladin, but I have left a trail of holy death in its wake, and the Templar are no longer much of a threat.

Of course, if this becomes a reality, it is waaaaaay off in the distance.  I just love the concept of endgame content period.  Starsector, even with all the mods, desperately lacks endgame stuff, and the Templar scratch all the right itches.  
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: MesoTroniK on November 25, 2014, 09:03:30 PM
If you want something that rivals the Templars, but with tricky finite supply campaign mechanics and is not player usable at all... I will have that taken care of sometime next year :)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Spenz on November 26, 2014, 01:40:44 AM
I eagerly await this pain train.  I need a grand final battle to shatter my fleet.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: j01 on November 27, 2014, 12:02:21 AM
I've noticed a few problems and troublesome quirks with this mod since I've been using it.

In one of my playthroughs with this mod active, I decided to check out how it works when you side with the templars, which as I understand it (and only know about because of a comment in this thread), is only possible by just mass killing non-pirate, non-templar fleets in a system during an active crusade. I had 100% cooperative standing with every faction except pirates before starting to contribute to the crusades, at which point I started killing only independent fleets within crusaded systems. Doing this enough seems to raise the Templar's opinion of you after the crusade ends, and lowers your faction standing with every faction present in that sector, even if you've only been fighting one of them.

Now, this could be a problem if for some unrelated reason you are just already fighting one of the non-pirate factions, and happen to fight them a bit during a crusade, especially one where few or no templars actually show up during the entire event, so you might not even notice, or forget between play sessions, though it's not at all impossible to recover your faction standing from contributing to a crusade just once. In this way, it is at least possible to only be permanently hostile to one non-pirate faction, and just fix your losses with with everyone else, and make it to cooperative level with the templars. It takes an extra long time and a lot of concentrated effort, though.

Another thing I noticed is that once you do gain access to the templar's home base, way off in the middle of nowhere, far removed from the other systems, you don't even get the option to purchase a place to store ships and weapons, even after reaching max faction standing with the templars.

This is problematic not just due to the distance from everywhere else (especially combined with the fuel and extra high supply costs of the templar ships), but also for the fact that under normal circumstances, a player allied with the templars will have made permanent enemies with most or all of the other factions by doing so, and thus be unable to dock and store things anywhere else except the abandoned platform in Corvus, and completely unable to resupply and refuel other than by fighting huge enemy fleets, which is not enough to support the extra high maintenance supply costs of templar ships, much less the fuel costs of getting from system to system without having to slog all the way back to the templar home base, where you can't even store anything extra.

It also seems like the templar home base should have at least one of every one of their ships and weapons available for purchase in the market at every new market update cycle, since you can't very well just store all your ships and crew right there at the home base and just wait around for months and months and months at a time with 0.0 supply cost, hoping for the RNG to produce the number and kind of ships you require, and traveling the enormous distance from a populated system all the way back to the templar system and base is both boring and time/resource consuming to an extreme if you have more than a frigate in your fleet (which is impractical when all other factions are hostile to you), and yields desired results even less often than just waiting around the templar base in fast forward mode for hours and hours. Hours and hours of real time, that is, after which I still never saw a templar carrier or a joyeuse cannon, after speeding through ingame time on a scale of years.

The amount of effort and the sacrifices that have to be made to fully ally with the templars seems right, but basically, if you've worked your way to cooperative with the templars, they should at least be more minimally accomodating to a player that they consider their invaluable comrade, I'd think.

On a side note, it'd also be nice if the templars had a few or a lot of patrols all around the universe that were quite a bit smaller, like just one or two destroyers/frigates, and saved the really huge fleets mostly for crusades. At the moment it mostly seems like an all-or-nothing affair to fight them that first time, where if you turn them hostile before you have 40+ levels worth of perks and a fully decked out paragon or two, a massive fleet is going to easily run you down, or catch you by surprise and easily destroy you with vastly superior power AND numbers. Even if your fleet is a few big and powerful ships, you're not ever going to win against half a dozen templar frigates/destroyers, which can also always catch up to you.

Great mod though, still enjoying the shiny effects and overwhelming opposition immensely.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 27, 2014, 01:00:31 AM
I've noticed a few problems and troublesome quirks with this mod since I've been using it.

In one of my playthroughs with this mod active, I decided to check out how it works when you side with the templars, which as I understand it (and only know about because of a comment in this thread), is only possible by just mass killing non-pirate, non-templar fleets in a system during an active crusade. I had 100% cooperative standing with every faction except pirates before starting to contribute to the crusades, at which point I started killing only independent fleets within crusaded systems. Doing this enough seems to raise the Templar's opinion of you after the crusade ends, and lowers your faction standing with every faction present in that sector, even if you've only been fighting one of them.

Now, this could be a problem if for some unrelated reason you are just already fighting one of the non-pirate factions, and happen to fight them a bit during a crusade, especially one where few or no templars actually show up during the entire event, so you might not even notice, or forget between play sessions, though it's not at all impossible to recover your faction standing from contributing to a crusade just once. In this way, it is at least possible to only be permanently hostile to one non-pirate faction, and just fix your losses with with everyone else, and make it to cooperative level with the templars. It takes an extra long time and a lot of concentrated effort, though.

Another thing I noticed is that once you do gain access to the templar's home base, way off in the middle of nowhere, far removed from the other systems, you don't even get the option to purchase a place to store ships and weapons, even after reaching max faction standing with the templars.

This is problematic not just due to the distance from everywhere else (especially combined with the fuel and extra high supply costs of the templar ships), but also for the fact that under normal circumstances, a player allied with the templars will have made permanent enemies with most or all of the other factions by doing so, and thus be unable to dock and store things anywhere else except the abandoned platform in Corvus, and completely unable to resupply and refuel other than by fighting huge enemy fleets, which is not enough to support the extra high maintenance supply costs of templar ships, much less the fuel costs of getting from system to system without having to slog all the way back to the templar home base, where you can't even store anything extra.

It also seems like the templar home base should have at least one of every one of their ships and weapons available for purchase in the market at every new market update cycle, since you can't very well just store all your ships and crew right there at the home base and just wait around for months and months and months at a time with 0.0 supply cost, hoping for the RNG to produce the number and kind of ships you require, and traveling the enormous distance from a populated system all the way back to the templar system and base is both boring and time/resource consuming to an extreme if you have more than a frigate in your fleet (which is impractical when all other factions are hostile to you), and yields desired results even less often than just waiting around the templar base in fast forward mode for hours and hours. Hours and hours of real time, that is, after which I still never saw a templar carrier or a joyeuse cannon, after speeding through ingame time on a scale of years.

The amount of effort and the sacrifices that have to be made to fully ally with the templars seems right, but basically, if you've worked your way to cooperative with the templars, they should at least be more minimally accomodating to a player that they consider their invaluable comrade, I'd think.

On a side note, it'd also be nice if the templars had a few or a lot of patrols all around the universe that were quite a bit smaller, like just one or two destroyers/frigates, and saved the really huge fleets mostly for crusades. At the moment it mostly seems like an all-or-nothing affair to fight them that first time, where if you turn them hostile before you have 40+ levels worth of perks and a fully decked out paragon or two, a massive fleet is going to easily run you down, or catch you by surprise and easily destroy you with vastly superior power AND numbers. Even if your fleet is a few big and powerful ships, you're not ever going to win against half a dozen templar frigates/destroyers, which can also always catch up to you.

Great mod though, still enjoying the shiny effects and overwhelming opposition immensely.

I had limited time to develop and test the long-term campaign progression for the Templars, so you're essentially the first one to actually test it out; I am grateful you made such a detailed report, since otherwise I could only guess how the experience is.

I have worked to minimize the chance of reputation loss for "contributing" to crusades, but ultimately there will be some false positives.  The news report does warn people to stay out, after all.

No storage in Ascalon is an oversight.  I'll fix that.  I'll also have them stock more supplies and fuel, and have no tariff.

The Templars should stock Joyeuse, but the carriers were an oversight.  I'll force at least one of each ship class, but weapons are another story.  I'll have more in the shop, though.

When there is no crusade, fleet spawns are actually often quite a bit smaller.  I'll make them even smaller in the future, however, so you can get those low-end fleets.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: j01 on November 27, 2014, 06:21:12 AM
I had limited time to develop and test the long-term campaign progression for the Templars, so you're essentially the first one to actually test it out; I am grateful you made such a detailed report, since otherwise I could only guess how the experience is.

That's surprising, since pretty much everything else other than the stuff I mentioned seems to work and meld so well with the campaign, and even the issues I mentioned are mostly quality-of-life stuff. Definitely nothing game breaking.

The only thing I'd really call gamebreaking about the templar integration into campaign would be the fact that the player's accumulated perks from character levels will eventually make them capable of taking any templar threat on with minimal risk, even with vanilla ships, though I suspect that it's more of an issue with the synergy some character skills have with certain vanilla ships in particular.

For example, the metric I usually use for weighing the challenge of campaign content at a late-game level is reaching a high enough character level to get level 10 ranks in all of the stuff that directly improves ordnance points and combat capability, and kitting out a single paragon with a few choice loadouts of vanilla weaponry (all beam weapons or all pulse laser weapons), and seeing how autopilot fares against the biggest and baddest threats.

A fully leveled beam paragon with all the best hull mods and combat perks like this is able to take on a templar fleet of pretty much any size, even multiple paladins simultaneously which are supported by jesuits and bulwarks, without sustaining any hull damage at all unless the autopilot AI pulls a significantly stupid move. When player controlled, it's not only possible, but actually quite easy to win against the best the templars have to offer without even taking armor damage. The carrier and fighters are especially susceptible to the amount of extended range beam weapons a paragon can carry. This is with SS+ mod as well, though, for what that's worth, and I'm talking about character level 30-40ish worth of upgrades, and specifically the paragon, which has somewhat unique advantages that work well with the 30% hard flux dissipation with shield active perk and general flux capacity/dissipation bonuses.

Amusingly, the vanilla beam weapons are actually more effective when stacked onto a paragon than trying to add in the stronger templar beam weapons, since the lower constant flux costs of vanilla beams allow for constant suppressing fire even while tanking hits on the shield.

Relatedly, and of possible interest, is that the arondight accelerator's flux damage when hitting a shield seems to ignore the fortress shield shipsystem's damage reduction. This might also be the case with the secace autocannon and Galatine Heavy Disruptor, I suspect, though I've only confirmed it with the accelerator. I figured it might not be intentional, but if it is, it's pretty much the only thing to give the abovementioned high level paragon setup any real trouble.

Sorry for the long winded, rambling walls of text, and thanks for your quick response and excellent mod work!
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Sabaton on November 27, 2014, 01:04:14 PM

Me and DR have discussed some upcoming ship designs, but given the massive effort needed to create Templar content, it's not happening just yet.

Didn't helmut made a kitbashed/upgraded paladin a while ago?  How would introducing that as a stronger alternative fare?

But perhaps having two paladins  would be redundant...
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 27, 2014, 01:10:14 PM
I had limited time to develop and test the long-term campaign progression for the Templars, so you're essentially the first one to actually test it out; I am grateful you made such a detailed report, since otherwise I could only guess how the experience is.

That's surprising, since pretty much everything else other than the stuff I mentioned seems to work and meld so well with the campaign, and even the issues I mentioned are mostly quality-of-life stuff. Definitely nothing game breaking.

The only thing I'd really call gamebreaking about the templar integration into campaign would be the fact that the player's accumulated perks from character levels will eventually make them capable of taking any templar threat on with minimal risk, even with vanilla ships, though I suspect that it's more of an issue with the synergy some character skills have with certain vanilla ships in particular.

For example, the metric I usually use for weighing the challenge of campaign content at a late-game level is reaching a high enough character level to get level 10 ranks in all of the stuff that directly improves ordnance points and combat capability, and kitting out a single paragon with a few choice loadouts of vanilla weaponry (all beam weapons or all pulse laser weapons), and seeing how autopilot fares against the biggest and baddest threats.

A fully leveled beam paragon with all the best hull mods and combat perks like this is able to take on a templar fleet of pretty much any size, even multiple paladins simultaneously which are supported by jesuits and bulwarks, without sustaining any hull damage at all unless the autopilot AI pulls a significantly stupid move. When player controlled, it's not only possible, but actually quite easy to win against the best the templars have to offer without even taking armor damage. The carrier and fighters are especially susceptible to the amount of extended range beam weapons a paragon can carry. This is with SS+ mod as well, though, for what that's worth, and I'm talking about character level 30-40ish worth of upgrades, and specifically the paragon, which has somewhat unique advantages that work well with the 30% hard flux dissipation with shield active perk and general flux capacity/dissipation bonuses.

Amusingly, the vanilla beam weapons are actually more effective when stacked onto a paragon than trying to add in the stronger templar beam weapons, since the lower constant flux costs of vanilla beams allow for constant suppressing fire even while tanking hits on the shield.

Relatedly, and of possible interest, is that the arondight accelerator's flux damage when hitting a shield seems to ignore the fortress shield shipsystem's damage reduction. This might also be the case with the secace autocannon and Galatine Heavy Disruptor, I suspect, though I've only confirmed it with the accelerator. I figured it might not be intentional, but if it is, it's pretty much the only thing to give the abovementioned high level paragon setup any real trouble.

Sorry for the long winded, rambling walls of text, and thanks for your quick response and excellent mod work!

The ship you describe is specifically designed to kill Templars and only Templars.  Nobody else has shields that take hard flux from beams.  This does seem to be a particular weakness that is too easy to exploit, though, so I'll be looking into giving Templars 50% beam resistance while the shields are on.  The other issue, of course, is kiting.  The Archbishop is intended to be super slow and kiteable; once you've isolated it, you've had to destroy the rest of the fleet in the first place, so I think it's fair.  When it's not alone, it's a deathtrap because of those interdiction beams (I'll probably raise the HP of those things).

In SS+, the Templars do indeed have their own skills; the flagship will often be a Combat 10 monster.


Me and DR have discussed some upcoming ship designs, but given the massive effort needed to create Templar content, it's not happening just yet.

Didn't helmut made a kitbashed/upgraded paladin a while ago?  How would introducing that as a stronger alternative fare?

But perhaps having two paladins  would be redundant...

Might show up as an Arcade boss at some point.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: j01 on November 27, 2014, 11:57:57 PM
The ship you describe is specifically designed to kill Templars and only Templars.  Nobody else has shields that take hard flux from beams.

That couldn't be less true, actually. The fully leveled beam paragon steamrolls everything, including multiple capital ships at a time, and even other standard paragons, despite only dealing soft flux to their shields with beams.

There's just that many beams, even without SS+ improving the damage of vanilla beam weapons, and hull mods combined with character level abilities can extend them to very long ranges.

It's equally as powerful, though less flux efficient, to just stack pulse laser type weapons in every slot. The paragon just synergizes in all the right ways with a lot of character skills, and has amazing base flux/dissipation, and a hell of a lot of weapon slots.

50% beam weapon resistance on shielded templar ships won't stop a fully leveled paragon from dominating them. It already takes longer to kill templar ships with the beam paragon loadout I mentioned compared to how long it takes that same paragon to destroy any vanilla or SS+ ships despite the soft and hard flux difference, it's just that the fully leveled paragon has enough defense to simply keep the pressure going forever, comfortably.

Their current level of defense vs beams actually seems fine, it seems more to me like they just have no decent way of dealing with high tech ships with super deep flux pools and 0.5 damage/flux shields or better, when combined with high character level perks.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 28, 2014, 12:57:10 AM
The ship you describe is specifically designed to kill Templars and only Templars.  Nobody else has shields that take hard flux from beams.

That couldn't be less true, actually. The fully leveled beam paragon steamrolls everything, including multiple capital ships at a time, and even other standard paragons, despite only dealing soft flux to their shields with beams.

There's just that many beams, even without SS+ improving the damage of vanilla beam weapons, and hull mods combined with character level abilities can extend them to very long ranges.

It's equally as powerful, though less flux efficient, to just stack pulse laser type weapons in every slot. The paragon just synergizes in all the right ways with a lot of character skills, and has amazing base flux/dissipation, and a hell of a lot of weapon slots.

50% beam weapon resistance on shielded templar ships won't stop a fully leveled paragon from dominating them. It already takes longer to kill templar ships with the beam paragon loadout I mentioned compared to how long it takes that same paragon to destroy any vanilla or SS+ ships despite the soft and hard flux difference, it's just that the fully leveled paragon has enough defense to simply keep the pressure going forever, comfortably.

Their current level of defense vs beams actually seems fine, it seems more to me like they just have no decent way of dealing with high tech ships with super deep flux pools and 0.5 damage/flux shields or better, when combined with high character level perks.

Paragons are straight-up overpowered, and with player skills are just stupid.  With the right setup, an enemy needs to deal over 750 DPS to you just to make your flux go up.  I realized templar shields aren't affected by skills and such, so I'm fixing that for the next version, but that won't help against something like the Paragon.  If I buffed the Templars enough to take out your ship, they'd be impossible to kill unless you abused the game mechanics and made ridiculous deathships.  You'd see Jesuits wrecking stock Conquests.

Perhaps in the future, the Templars will get a shieldbreaker weapon (built-in maybe), but that doesn't really change the fact that Paragons still dominate everything else.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: j01 on November 28, 2014, 01:53:36 AM
Paragons are straight-up overpowered, and with player skills are just stupid.  With the right setup, an enemy needs to deal over 750 DPS to you just to make your flux go up.  I realized templar shields aren't affected by skills and such, so I'm fixing that for the next version, but that won't help against something like the Paragon.  If I buffed the Templars enough to take out your ship, they'd be impossible to kill unless you abused the game mechanics and made ridiculous deathships.  You'd see Jesuits wrecking stock Conquests.

Perhaps in the future, the Templars will get a shieldbreaker weapon (built-in maybe), but that doesn't really change the fact that Paragons still dominate everything else.

Pretty spot on, I'd say. A workable compromise however might be something along the lines of, say, the priwen burst dealing hard flux damage to fully shielded enemies within its blast radius of a percentage of the enemy ship's max flux.

This would make it very powerful against paragons with their deep flux reserves, giving templars a much needed edge against them and other ships with huge flux maxes and super efficient shields specifically, without making it overkill against other ships.

Whatcha think?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: KvaNTy on November 28, 2014, 02:21:34 AM
By the way, speaking about standing towards Templars. I've noticed the way to rise it surprisingly easily and without harming relations with other factions.
I'm using Debido's "RandomSector" mod which randomizes star's locations and adds them ability to move over time. This means that Templars homeworld is no longer on the edge of map and can be close to other stars. So the number of faction and pirate fleets sneaking back and forth in hyperspace near this system will be much bigger and you can get standing rewards for killing those pirates. And the thing is that such actions improve relations with Templars by the same amount as with any other faction. Even if there are no active crusades atm.
Something tells me it's not supposed to be this way.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Sabaton on November 28, 2014, 02:33:09 AM
 Is this really that much of an issue? Paragons are supposed to be the epitome of domain design. They are supposed to be super powerfull against other ships.
 Besides, finding/buying/equipping/maintaining a paragon is no easy task at first, but endgame you pretty much don't care.
 Most games have this issue, where they cease to be a challenge once you cruise through them and become god.
 
 And of course smaller ships are more vulnerable to brutes like the Paragon, size can matter. There's no shame if a paladin outright loses to one, its just a cruiser.
 As for the disco paragon build, thats an issue of vanilla, not your mod.
 But if you do want to fix it, might i suggest giving a ship the same system the Exi capital ships carrier has, the one that can teleport a ship close to it? Might seem cheesy, but it could do the trick.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: j01 on November 28, 2014, 02:49:03 AM
Paragons are supposed to be the epitome of domain design.

And the templar faction is meant to be far superior to anything the domain of man ever even dreamed of.

Like I said originally though, the problem is indeed with the balancing of how certain vanilla ships such as the paragon synergize with high character level benefits all stacking together.

I'd certainly like for the most optimally fitted paragon to still not be capable of taking on 3 optimally outfitted templar paladins (and any nearby jesuits+bulwarks) simultaneously without breaking a sweat, but it's the mod maker's prerogative if he wants to bother trying to balance his mod against vanilla content that is clearly not yet balanced, itself.

I don't think it would take much more than something like allowing templars the ability to deal some percentage based flux damage, and maybe some additional speed/maneuverability (high level character skills allow for enormous boosts in speed and maneuverability to even hulks like the paragon and onslaught, already, allowing even them to kite enemies to a degree), but I definitely wouldn't blame dark.revenant if he just chalked those factors up as unbalanced outliers that should be ignored until starsector devs officially address them.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 28, 2014, 02:59:41 AM
Pretty spot on, I'd say. A workable compromise however might be something along the lines of, say, the priwen burst dealing hard flux damage to fully shielded enemies within its blast radius of a percentage of the enemy ship's max flux.

This would make it very powerful against paragons with their deep flux reserves, giving templars a much needed edge against them and other ships with huge flux maxes and super efficient shields specifically, without making it overkill against other ships.
Percentage-based damage is really sloppy.  I'll try making Priwen Burst do kinetic damage, but I don't think this is going to solve the issue.

By the way, speaking about standing towards Templars. I've noticed the way to rise it surprisingly easily and without harming relations with other factions.
I'm using Debido's "RandomSector" mod which randomizes star's locations and adds them ability to move over time. This means that Templars homeworld is no longer on the edge of map and can be close to other stars. So the number of faction and pirate fleets sneaking back and forth in hyperspace near this system will be much bigger and you can get standing rewards for killing those pirates. And the thing is that such actions improve relations with Templars by the same amount as with any other faction. Even if there are no active crusades atm.
Something tells me it's not supposed to be this way.
It's impossible to remove that mechanic.  The Templars are not designed to work properly in RandomSector.

Is this really that much of an issue? Paragons are supposed to be the epitome of domain design. They are supposed to be super powerfull against other ships.
 Besides, finding/buying/equipping/maintaining a paragon is no easy task at first, but endgame you pretty much don't care.
 Most games have this issue, where they cease to be a challenge once you cruise through them and become god.
 
 And of course smaller ships are more vulnerable to brutes like the Paragon, size can matter. There's no shame if a paladin outright loses to one, its just a cruiser.
 As for the disco paragon build, thats an issue of vanilla, not your mod.
 But if you do want to fix it, might i suggest giving a ship the same system the Exi capital ships carrier has, the one that can teleport a ship close to it? Might seem cheesy, but it could do the trick.
I fail to see how recall teleport could help this situation.  Also, Paladins are cruisers only by designation; combat-wise, they are supposed to be stronger than Paragons.

I'd certainly like for the most optimally fitted paragon to still not be capable of taking on 3 optimally outfitted templar paladins (and any nearby jesuits+bulwarks) simultaneously without breaking a sweat, but it's the mod maker's prerogative if he wants to bother trying to balance his mod against vanilla content that is clearly not yet balanced, itself.

I don't think it would take much more than something like allowing templars the ability to deal some percentage based flux damage, and maybe some additional speed/maneuverability (high level character skills allow for enormous boosts in speed and maneuverability to even hulks like the paragon and onslaught, already, allowing even them to kite enemies to a degree), but I definitely wouldn't blame dark.revenant if he just chalked those factors up as unbalanced outliers that should be ignored until starsector devs officially address them.
As I've said before, if I just buff Templars to be able to kill the cheesiest unbalanced vanilla content, anyone actually playing the game legitimately (the majority, by far) will be unable to even touch the Templars, and thus won't experience their content.  It's not possible to have them both strong enough to kill BS player-skilled Paragons and also weak enough to be beatable with players that aren't running optimized capital ships with Combat 10, Technology 10.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Cycerin on November 28, 2014, 04:12:24 AM
Nothing beats a Paragon with the passive hard flux dissipation skill and more than 20 aptitude points. It's because Fortress Shield is only balanced by the fact that it slowly builds hard flux, and if you remove that, things get silly. You can break vanilla if you want, it's not something we can do anything about with this mod. For most players, Templars are seen as way too powerful.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Ratheden on December 03, 2014, 03:14:35 AM
I like to think I am on the low end of average players, and Templars seem like gods to me :)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Histidine on December 04, 2014, 11:26:35 PM
I noticed that factions like to spawn really big patrol fleets even when no crusades are going on, presumably to fight the low-level random Templar incursions.

Could the fleets (both Templars and their enemies) be tied to crusadeScale or another variable, to reduce the system load for us 32-bit dinosaurs?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3e
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 05, 2014, 10:50:44 AM
There is no point.  They're not spawning more fleets, just bigger ones.

The Templars, when no crusade is going on, spawn fewer ships than any faction in the game, mods included.
Title: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 08, 2014, 01:50:43 AM
Lots of little updates and little improvements.  Enjoy!

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.3f (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.3f.zip)
Download Mirror (https://www.mediafire.com/?9id4ou1w88ezbt2)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.02 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.3 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)

We also recommend Version Checker 1.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.3f (December 8, 2014)
- Code review and cleanup
- Anamorphic flare shader updated; more colors!
- Ascalon now has storage space
- Ascalon should stock a better variety of ships and have more weapons available
- Ascalon stocks a lot of fuel and supplies now; tariff removed
- Non-crusade fleets can be a lot smaller, for an early game challenge
- Fixed bug: reputation no longer improves automatically
- Lattice Shields now offer 25% beam resistance
- Interdictor Drone hit points increased to 700 from 450, armor increased to 100 from 75
- Archbishop hit points increased to 17000 from 14000
- Lattice Shields are now influenced by stat mods, such as from player skills and CR bonuses
- Priwen Burst damage increased by 33%; damage type changed to Kinetic (EMP unchanged)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: isaacssv552 on December 09, 2014, 01:53:44 PM
If you want Paladins to kill Paragons just give them the excelsior's reactor, a Paladin with an excelsior's reactor hull mod and max flux can instakill anything by venting.

On a more serious note, the templar variants have way more OP used than the hulls actually have, at least in the missions. I can never refit the templar ships without them losing up to 100 OP worth of weapons, vent, capacitors, and hullmods. I solved this by boosting the OP in the ship_data.csv file. I think I gave the Paladin 350 OP because thats about what the variants use and the same amount the Paragon has.

Otherwise this mod is amazing.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 09, 2014, 03:02:20 PM
The variants deliberately use way more OP/caps/vents than the hulls are rated for, because it simulates max commander stats (+30% OP, reduced weapon OP cost, etc).  Increasing the OP will make them almost impossible to kill in a SS+ campaign.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: isaacssv552 on December 09, 2014, 04:43:53 PM
I did notice that they started curb stomping the AI in crusades after I made the change, although it may have been my increases to the templar's fleet size that did it. I found them hard to kill in SS+ with the increased OP, though far from impossible, but decided that having large templar fleets wipe out player fleets without capitals made sense.

If the variants are accounting for the command bonuses would it be possible to give them an OP bonus in the missions so refitting them doesn't penalize the player?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 09, 2014, 06:52:28 PM
I did notice that they started curb stomping the AI in crusades after I made the change, although it may have been my increases to the templar's fleet size that did it. I found them hard to kill in SS+ with the increased OP, though far from impossible, but decided that having large templar fleets wipe out player fleets without capitals made sense.

If the variants are accounting for the command bonuses would it be possible to give them an OP bonus in the missions so refitting them doesn't penalize the player?

First of all, it's unfortunately not possible to give OP bonuses for missions.

Even so, the loadouts are designed specifically to work well for the given mission.  Smite, for example, is a great use case for the Joyeuse.  Massacre is a great place for the point-defense-oriented Rhon lasers on your partner ship.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: jupjupy on December 10, 2014, 12:26:35 AM
First of all, it's unfortunately not possible to give OP bonuses for missions.

Didnt you have the Shield Bypass in SS+? Couldnt you stick a variant of that - locked to the player/AI for normal campaign, of course, and maybe made so you cant put it on any other ship - that provides a negative OP cost without any other effects?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 10, 2014, 01:05:11 AM
First of all, it's unfortunately not possible to give OP bonuses for missions.

Didnt you have the Shield Bypass in SS+? Couldnt you stick a variant of that - locked to the player/AI for normal campaign, of course, and maybe made so you cant put it on any other ship - that provides a negative OP cost without any other effects?

That's an exceptionally awkward solution.  Honestly, I like it as it is.  I can see why some people might be bothered by having custom loadouts being weaker, but I think it offsets the benefit you get from being able to select any combination of things you want.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: isaacssv552 on December 10, 2014, 05:04:51 AM
I personally find refitting to be almost as fun as actually fighting so penalties for refitting really irk me. However, if its not possible to boost the ships for the missions thats fine, I'll just continue boosting the OP amount.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Archan31 on December 11, 2014, 06:53:05 AM
I'm having trouble getting reputation with the templars. I've tried assisting them in their crusades and i've tried killing pirates that are in a crusaded system. Also, I'm using an older version because 9.3f seems to crash my game. any help?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Archang31 on December 11, 2014, 01:44:32 PM
(new to forums and it probably shows) just tried the 9.3f update but all it does is crash my game often giving me a java se binary code error. ive uninstalled and reinstalled the game several times. what should i do? also, i know enough about code to get to a specific folder and line, but anything really fancy and i wont be able to do anything about it.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 11, 2014, 02:07:46 PM
Have you tried redownloading 0.9.3f?  Sounds like you could have a corrupted jar file.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Wyvern on December 11, 2014, 02:17:24 PM
You may also want to double-check that you've got (and are using) the utility mods this one depends on.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Archang31 on December 11, 2014, 03:48:28 PM
I've redownloaded 9.3f twice and i have the most recent versions of lazylib and shaderlib. It seems always leads to a java se binary error thing. (yes, thing). the same error occurs with starsector 2.3+ (which i am not running at the same time as this one) and recently the imperium and citadel mods. maybe its something with my game?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on December 11, 2014, 04:11:50 PM
I've redownloaded 9.3f twice and i have the most recent versions of lazylib and shaderlib. It seems always leads to a java se binary error thing. (yes, thing). the same error occurs with starsector 2.3+ (which i am not running at the same time as this one) and recently the imperium and citadel mods. maybe its something with my game?
Why don't you post your log here then?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 11, 2014, 05:05:31 PM
I've redownloaded 9.3f twice and i have the most recent versions of lazylib and shaderlib. It seems always leads to a java se binary error thing. (yes, thing). the same error occurs with starsector 2.3+ (which i am not running at the same time as this one) and recently the imperium and citadel mods. maybe its something with my game?

You don't have the most recent version of shaderlib, then.  If your version still says 1.01, it's old.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Archang31 on December 12, 2014, 05:47:36 AM
I have no clue what you mean by log. If its anything to do with code, as i see when people have a problem, then I'll need a bit of instruction ??? and I do have ShaderLib v1.02. (The log thing is probably a start.)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 12, 2014, 02:12:11 PM
I have no clue what you mean by log. If its anything to do with code, as i see when people have a problem, then I'll need a bit of instruction ??? and I do have ShaderLib v1.02. (The log thing is probably a start.)

starsector.log in the starsector-core folder.  Paste the bottom chunk of it when you have a crash.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Wyvern on December 19, 2014, 11:11:20 AM
Currently having fun trying to get reputation up with the Templar without (permanently) crashing my reputation with anyone else.  It's a bit tricky (and I had to do some save-scumming just to figure out the rules for how reputation from crusades worked), but makes a good endgame goal.

The trick is that you need to keep your reputation high enough that the penalty from the crusade doesn't push you over -75 (and thank goodness it doesn't penalize your reputation with pirates!), which generally means spending the second half of each crusade hunting bounties instead of continuing to kill stuff in the crusaded system.  Which, in turn, makes it even slower to get rep with the Templar, but so be it.  (Slower once because you aren't spending the whole crusade duration contributing; slower twice because you have to wait for crusades to hit systems where you'll be able to get rep back in time; the Hegemony works well, because they've got presence in enough other systems that there are almost always bounties available; something like the Sindrian Diktat I'd just leave alone and let the crusade go off without my help.)

...Of course, once I have that Templar reputation, I'm going to buy a bunch of stuff and then turn on them.  But it's probably still easier than capturing their ships; either I got really bad luck, or they just always explode now.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 19, 2014, 02:19:40 PM
Once you get up to suspicious or neutral, you can gain rep by killing the massive fleet the church sends to Antioch every now and then (as long as it is in Antioch), in the next update.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Wyvern on December 19, 2014, 02:24:41 PM
Sounds like fun!  ...Hopefully that fleet will have an interesting mix of ships with advanced variants that make use of skill-increased ordnance point limits; the default Conquest, for one example among many, is significantly less threatening than it should be.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 19, 2014, 03:11:12 PM
In SS+, it's a 10/10/10 400-FP death ball.  I don't think you'll have to worry about difficulty.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Wyvern on December 19, 2014, 03:26:35 PM
Ah; I've actually stopped using SS+ - there are a few balance decisions it's made that I'm not really interested in playing with.  Been running with just shadowyards + templar.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Spenz on December 19, 2014, 04:25:53 PM
In SS+, it's a 10/10/10 400-FP death ball.  I don't think you'll have to worry about difficulty.


oooooh I'm interested!  Once you grind the rep and get yourself an archbishop/4+ wings of templar fighters, or a Paladin, there really isn't much that can challenge you.  The default fleets are often too weak, and sustained operations to make them stronger by wiping them out are exceptionally difficult due to the large logistics footprint that Templar ships have, so you never really get the opportunity to fight fleets of sufficient strength.  Plus I like the idea of at least one of the major factions trying to take the fight to the Templar.  Right now it seems everyone just lies down and takes it up the exhaust nozzle.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 19, 2014, 04:50:15 PM
oooooh I'm interested!  Once you grind the rep and get yourself an archbishop/4+ wings of templar fighters, or a Paladin, there really isn't much that can challenge you.  The default fleets are often too weak, and sustained operations to make them stronger by wiping them out are exceptionally difficult due to the large logistics footprint that Templar ships have, so you never really get the opportunity to fight fleets of sufficient strength.  Plus I like the idea of at least one of the major factions trying to take the fight to the Templar.  Right now it seems everyone just lies down and takes it up the exhaust nozzle.

There may be some other, even more powerful or esoteric (and completely player-inaccessible) ships/factions coming out in the future.  I know of two separate mods like that, which are in the works.

Ah; I've actually stopped using SS+ - there are a few balance decisions it's made that I'm not really interested in playing with.  Been running with just shadowyards + templar.

Which parts are you referring to?  If something I did is unpopular I'll add a setting for it so you can disable/adjust it.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Canis Lupus on December 20, 2014, 02:32:39 AM
First, the quality of the work is awesome - sfx is mostly great (imo minus missiles and holy charge (the latter reminisces of WoW too much for me)), and the conceptualization of defensive and offensive abilties, as well ship systems are awesome. I like the energy weapons akin to SG's Ancients' the most, oh, those smart projectiles! With that in mind...

I am avoiding using this mod, because battles have been a bit … boring. It is NOT the mod’s fault, but
the way it is balanced, combined with the (at present) lack of player-controlled ship/weapon construction do not lend themselves to the use of anything other than player-controlled Paragon + bomber fleets. Anything else and I have to clear stations out of ships after a few engagements and then have to figure out where to get all the weapons I want to spec my ships. Again, these wouldn’t be issues if I could build my own ships/weapons (basically have my own planet), but at present I only trust the AI with holding a couple of carriers at the bottom of the map (and rarely, with a Paragon).

The bomber wings I use end up being pretty useless after the first bombing run, as they wipe out too easily against super-flak and the Priwen Bursts… so a few minutes into a fight, it’s me slugging it out against a few Paladins, rinse and repeat. And no, I’m not beam-kiting, I prefer slugfest + no flux capacitors + maxed vent + quick (frontal+accelerated), hardened shields (imo slugfest is much more fun than beam-kiting, and brings risks to the engagement). I sometimes use other capitals, like speed-focused Conquests or well-geared Onslaughts, but neither of these do very well. I have to kite too much with the Conquests (again, a bit boring), and I’ve found the onslaughts need good cover on the flanks, which I don’t have because I don’t trust the AI with ships. 

So then I find myself thinking that this mod would have been awesome down the road, once Starsector matured a bit more. For now, and until then? A few suggestions:

Dealing with the unfeasibility of small-ship fleets, and with the overbearing Paragons.
•   Priwen bursts could use a rework. At present they annihilate wings and frigates and do nothing against the Templar’s nemesis, the Paragon. I say a little “thank you” every time a nearby Paladin uses its Priwen, as all it does is build flux and expose itself to a shot from my Plasma Cannons. I like how the Super EMP works on the Arcade ship. If the Priwen works something like that, it would be universally useful, while being more powerful than at present against the Paragon, and would not be such a bane to wing/frigate-based fleets. Bigger ships get longer-range Priwens and ta-da, balance.
•   AI ships don’t know to withdrawal far enough when a Templar ships explodes. I remember one of my Maximus and a couple of Lashers moving back a bit and dropping shields, only to get wiped out in the incoming explosion… I cried for my Maximus and stopped using Lashers.
•   Holy Charge could also use a rework… into what exactly, I don’t know... one of the Paladin’s problems I’ve found is that they can’t withdrawal to vent very well. Once they’ve built up their flux, they rarely get enough time to retreat and vent before they die… which brings me to:
•   Snearing those Kiters. Maybe with a missle. High-durability, high-ammo, ultra-fast, ultra-long range. Some EMP damage, but in effect, very much like an Archbishop’s drones. Something to stop those Paragons from acting like a Wolf.

Making ballistics viable.
•   In my eyes, an Onslaught is in many ways an equal of the Paragon (especially in SS+). That behemoth weapon platform can mount a plethora of ultra-high-tech ballistic weapons that should make any Paragon commander think twice before engaging. Yet, the Onslaught (and the Caesar and Conquest) does much more poorly against the Templars than does the Paragon. Hopefully the changes suggested above can reduce that apparent difference by making Ballistic-based ships relatively more viable. If not, then maybe slightly boost explosive damage to Templars. I want Onslaught-Archbishop slugfests!
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 20, 2014, 05:22:42 AM
First, the quality of the work is awesome - sfx is mostly great (imo minus missiles and holy charge (the latter reminisces of WoW too much for me)), and the conceptualization of defensive and offensive abilties, as well ship systems are awesome. I like the energy weapons akin to SG's Ancients' the most, oh, those smart projectiles! With that in mind...

I am avoiding using this mod, because battles have been a bit … boring. It is NOT the mod’s fault, but
the way it is balanced, combined with the (at present) lack of player-controlled ship/weapon construction do not lend themselves to the use of anything other than player-controlled Paragon + bomber fleets. Anything else and I have to clear stations out of ships after a few engagements and then have to figure out where to get all the weapons I want to spec my ships. Again, these wouldn’t be issues if I could build my own ships/weapons (basically have my own planet), but at present I only trust the AI with holding a couple of carriers at the bottom of the map (and rarely, with a Paragon).

The bomber wings I use end up being pretty useless after the first bombing run, as they wipe out too easily against super-flak and the Priwen Bursts… so a few minutes into a fight, it’s me slugging it out against a few Paladins, rinse and repeat. And no, I’m not beam-kiting, I prefer slugfest + no flux capacitors + maxed vent + quick (frontal+accelerated), hardened shields (imo slugfest is much more fun than beam-kiting, and brings risks to the engagement). I sometimes use other capitals, like speed-focused Conquests or well-geared Onslaughts, but neither of these do very well. I have to kite too much with the Conquests (again, a bit boring), and I’ve found the onslaughts need good cover on the flanks, which I don’t have because I don’t trust the AI with ships. 

So then I find myself thinking that this mod would have been awesome down the road, once Starsector matured a bit more. For now, and until then? A few suggestions:

Dealing with the unfeasibility of small-ship fleets, and with the overbearing Paragons.
•   Priwen bursts could use a rework. At present they annihilate wings and frigates and do nothing against the Templar’s nemesis, the Paragon. I say a little “thank you” every time a nearby Paladin uses its Priwen, as all it does is build flux and expose itself to a shot from my Plasma Cannons. I like how the Super EMP works on the Arcade ship. If the Priwen works something like that, it would be universally useful, while being more powerful than at present against the Paragon, and would not be such a bane to wing/frigate-based fleets. Bigger ships get longer-range Priwens and ta-da, balance.
•   AI ships don’t know to withdrawal far enough when a Templar ships explodes. I remember one of my Maximus and a couple of Lashers moving back a bit and dropping shields, only to get wiped out in the incoming explosion… I cried for my Maximus and stopped using Lashers.
•   Holy Charge could also use a rework… into what exactly, I don’t know... one of the Paladin’s problems I’ve found is that they can’t withdrawal to vent very well. Once they’ve built up their flux, they rarely get enough time to retreat and vent before they die… which brings me to:
•   Snearing those Kiters. Maybe with a missle. High-durability, high-ammo, ultra-fast, ultra-long range. Some EMP damage, but in effect, very much like an Archbishop’s drones. Something to stop those Paragons from acting like a Wolf.

Making ballistics viable.
•   In my eyes, an Onslaught is in many ways an equal of the Paragon (especially in SS+). That behemoth weapon platform can mount a plethora of ultra-high-tech ballistic weapons that should make any Paragon commander think twice before engaging. Yet, the Onslaught (and the Caesar and Conquest) does much more poorly against the Templars than does the Paragon. Hopefully the changes suggested above can reduce that apparent difference by making Ballistic-based ships relatively more viable. If not, then maybe slightly boost explosive damage to Templars. I want Onslaught-Archbishop slugfests!

Aw man, that Clarent bell toll sound is a favorite amongst the other modders...

Templars are generally meant to be fought with mixed fleets; using just bombers will not make for a very interesting experience.  Two very important hull mods are Automated Repair Unit and Resistant Flux Coils, if you want to do well.

Priwen Bursts should not be any longer-range than they already are (seriously, the bigger ones fill almost the entire screen), and most certainly should not be anti-capital weapons.  They're specifically designed to punish surround-and-swarm tactics (Templar ships are rather slow; if you use frigates, make sure you split them up as much as you can.  Similarly, they shouldn't auto-overload stuff.  That's just broken.

I can't do anything about the vanilla AI, but there is a phantom force that pushes ships away from impending core detonations.  I'll probably just make the detonations less deadly.

Paladins are not meant to retreat.  It's in their name.  In any case, they don't use the charge as often as they should, though, so if they use it more often it will shut down lots of kiting tactics and make them more of an in-your-face threat.

Giga-salamanders would indeed solve kiting.  It would also solve moving in general.  If you want your ships to be able to actually use their engines ever, this is perhaps not the best idea.

Low-tech ships have to be prepared to tank EMP damage.  If you've got an onslaught, you must have Automated Repair Unit, Armored Weapons, Resistant Flux Coils, and Insulated Engine Assembly to minimize weapon downtime as much as possible.  Don't worry about dissipating your full firepower; you won't actually have all of your weapons online at the same time.

That said, I have made the following changes:
- Holy Charge AI improved
- Slightly increased high explosive damage to Templar shields
- Priwen Burst EMP damage halved, but now deals hard flux damage in addition to everything else
- Templar reactor explosions deal kinetic damage, deal a third of the damage they used to, and inflict massive hard flux damage to those caught in the blast
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Canis Lupus on December 20, 2014, 07:05:45 AM
Aw man, that Clarent bell toll sound is a favorite amongst the other modders...

:o

Quote
Templars are generally meant to be fought with mixed fleets; using just bombers will not make for a very interesting experience.  Two very important hull mods are Automated Repair Unit and Resistant Flux Coils, if you want to do well.

...
Low-tech ships have to be prepared to tank EMP damage.  If you've got an onslaught, you must have Automated Repair Unit, Armored Weapons, Resistant Flux Coils, and Insulated Engine Assembly to minimize weapon downtime as much as possible.  Don't worry about dissipating your full firepower; you won't actually have all of your weapons online at the same time.

My issues with the Onslaught come from the lack of flank cover due to minimal frigate use (after discovery of immense frigate fragility vs. Priwen + self-destructs, not an issue with the upcoming changes). It's a failure by choice, but I'll look into your suggestions as well as see about adding a couple of frigates to cover my butt.

BTW, Automated Repair Unit costs about 5 supply for an Onslaught.

Quote
Priwen Bursts should not be any longer-range than they already are (seriously, the bigger ones fill almost the entire screen), and most certainly should not be anti-capital weapons. They're specifically designed to punish surround-and-swarm tactics (Templar ships are rather slow; if you use frigates, make sure you split them up as much as you can.  Similarly, they shouldn't auto-overload stuff.  That's just broken.

I can't do anything about the vanilla AI, but there is a phantom force that pushes ships away from impending core detonations.  I'll probably just make the detonations less deadly.

I understand that reasoning and the changes you mentioned bellow should adequately resolve my concerns. Thanks!

Quote
Paladins are not meant to retreat.  It's in their name.  In any case, they don't use the charge as often as they should, though, so if they use it more often it will shut down lots of kiting tactics and make them more of an in-your-face threat.

I figured as much...

The more frequent use of Holy Charge should also help multiple Paladins in slugfests. Presently it's quite easy to burst one down with Plasma cannons and a few Reapers before the others can really partake in the battle. Ideally now I'll see three Paladins, at 12, 4, and 8 o'clock.

Quote
Giga-salamanders would indeed solve kiting.  It would also solve moving in general.  If you want your ships to be able to actually use their engines ever, this is perhaps not the best idea.

Ye, that wasn't the best thought-out idea on my part. Better would have been an Arachne with rooting drones or a fighter wing or EDIT: or reverse gravity missiles or a reverse gravity beam (opposite of the Jupiter) or ... hopefully the Holy Charge changes resolve this for the folks who like to beam-kite.

Quote
That said, I have made the following changes:
- Holy Charge AI improved
- Slightly increased high explosive damage to Templar shields
- Priwen Burst EMP damage halved, but now deals hard flux damage in addition to everything else
- Templar reactor explosions deal kinetic damage, deal a third of the damage they used to, and inflict massive hard flux damage to those caught in the blast

Is the Priwen Burst hard flux damage 90% mitigated by the Paragon's Fortress Shield?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 20, 2014, 02:23:54 PM
Is the Priwen Burst hard flux damage 90% mitigated by the Paragon's Fortress Shield?

Shields are bypassed entirely when dealing with hard flux damage.  A 0.4-efficiency fortress shielded paragon takes as much hard flux as buffalo mk 2.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: angrytigerp on December 29, 2014, 04:05:05 AM
Dark, just wanted to extend my appreciation for this faction. It goes really well with SS+ (almost like you designed both mods or something)

My SS+ campaign was missing an endgame, until I went and picked a fight with a mid-size Templar fleet (I had more or less ignored them up to that point). To my surprise, even the frigates were dangerous to my fleet. I don't know what voodoo you worked to get that funky shield lattice working, but it's a brilliant mechanic, and a fantastic change of pace. I'm almost tempted to start my game over and become a Templar myself, just so I can stomp anyone and everyone who looks at me funny.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 29, 2014, 02:15:44 PM
I'm glad you like it!

Yeah, endgame challenge was the intention, and they were balanced for SS+.  One of the primary design goals was making every Templar ship relevant at all fleet scales, so those Jesuits needed to be able to hold their own against the big guns, despite their inability to tank heavy fire.  Thus, they get the Schism Drive; they use it as a source of DPS, a way to get around the map, and - most importantly - an escape ability to avoid big bursts of damage.
Title: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 08, 2015, 07:00:05 PM
Another incremental balance/feature pass.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.3g (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.3g.zip)
Download Mirror (https://www.mediafire.com/?y739l9133qks6f5)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.03 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.4 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)

We also recommend Version Checker 1.3 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.3g
- Lattice Shield Matrix code optimized slightly
- Spiffier shield impacts
- Ascalon counts as a comm relay
- Secace, Galatine, and Arondight flux damage now properly scales with stats
- The Knights Templar do not like when you trade with the Luddic Church
- Luddic Church sometimes sends an enormous fleet to Antioch to cause trouble
- Unrest after a Crusade is normalized; no more 20+ stability penalties!
- Holy Charge AI improved
- Slightly increased high explosive damage to Templar shields
- Priwen Burst EMP damage halved, but now deals hard flux damage in addition to everything else
- Templar reactor explosions deal kinetic damage, deal half the damage they used to, and inflict massive hard flux damage to those caught in the blast
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Sabaton on January 09, 2015, 08:11:30 AM
 I've been plagued by this problem for a while:

 The situation: latest templar mod installed, latest lazylib and shader lib, no modified anything, reinstalled game several times, even made sure I have the last java version.

 The problem: most templar ship variants instantly cause the game to crash after being selected in the missions.
 The culprits are: Paladin: Agilis, Atirier, Estender, Mittere
 Archbishop: Atirier, Defensa, Mittere, Saltare
 Crusader: Agilis, Saltare
 Oddly enough the frigate doesn't have any issues.

 Problem seems to be caused solely by templars.

 The log:
Spoiler
java.lang.NullPointerException
   at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.refit.oOOO.Ö00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.refit.O00O.ø00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.refit.ManageVariantsDialog.actionPerformed(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.thisnew.super(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.null.processInput(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.O0Oo.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.B.void.class$super(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.A.oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.Ò00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.O0OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.super(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$2.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
[close]

 The question: what dafuq is going on?
 
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Histidine on January 09, 2015, 08:18:52 AM
I've been plagued by this problem for a while:

 The situation: latest templar mod installed, latest lazylib and shader lib, no modified anything, reinstalled game several times, even made sure I have the last java version.

 The problem: most templar ship variants instantly cause the game to crash after being selected in the missions.
[...]
 The question: what dafuq is going on?
 
Here. (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8668.0)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Sabaton on January 09, 2015, 08:30:51 AM
 Oh, and is there anything I can do or should I just wait for the next patch?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Silver Silence on January 09, 2015, 09:00:06 AM
I presume it's done in Latin or something equally foreign, but could someone or Dark tell me what the loadouts are? Saltare.. Mittere.. Atirier.. Do they complement each other, so if I was to scavenge enough templar ships to have a small fleet of Defensa ships, could I expect a fleet of defensively oriented Templar ships? Assuming Defensa relates to playing defensively and on the back foot.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on January 09, 2015, 11:21:24 AM
I presume it's done in Latin or something equally foreign, but could someone or Dark tell me what the loadouts are? Saltare.. Mittere.. Atirier.. Do they complement each other, so if I was to scavenge enough templar ships to have a small fleet of Defensa ships, could I expect a fleet of defensively oriented Templar ships? Assuming Defensa relates to playing defensively and on the back foot.
Ship loadouts are completely random if you are running SS+
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Silver Silence on January 09, 2015, 11:37:47 AM
Uwotm8? I was asking what the loadouts mean in english. You know how other ships might have Assault/Elite/Support variants? What does Saltare/Mittere/Atirier/Defensa and other such variants mean? The Templar always have a supply of their own munitions and ships so they're never gonna have ships and weapon mounts swapped out for the sake of making do.


Unless you mean one Saltare Paladin is gonna look completely different to another Saltare Paladin even though the same variant is used and thus the same weapons and hullmods are needed and again, Templar don't have to "make do".
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 09, 2015, 12:23:48 PM
Estendre - Standard
Saltare - Assault
Mittere - Missile/Strike
Atirier - Artillery
Defensa - Escort
Agilis - Fast/Skirmish
Eligere - Elite
Mandare - Command
Portare - Support
Fusiller - Close Support
Magister - Ultimate
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Silver Silence on January 11, 2015, 10:08:32 AM
So I wondered what would happen if you used other ships to create a Templar siege engine. The result is this (http://puu.sh/enpzd/8a03e2e8a8.jpg). 12 Secace Autocannons, 2 Arondight Accelerators, 7 Galatines, 4 Merced Cannons, 4 Sentenias and 12 Longinus Lasers. I'd have Rhon Lasers fitted for PD but then I'd need the PD AI and that's neuter the mass of other small guns aboard this monster. So instead I've used Neutrino Disruptors. For light missile support, Neutrino missile launchers top it off. That said, the disruptors do nothing against Clarent missiles, they track far too well (disruptors work like graviton beams, spinning missiles out of control). And the best part? It spent most of it's time overloaded in the face of an Archbishop and a few Jesuits.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Nanao-kun on January 11, 2015, 10:57:41 AM
So I wondered what would happen if you used other ships to create a Templar siege engine. The result is this (http://puu.sh/enpzd/8a03e2e8a8.jpg). 12 Secace Autocannons, 2 Arondight Accelerators, 7 Galatines, 4 Merced Cannons, 4 Sentenias and 12 Longinus Lasers. I'd have Rhon Lasers fitted for PD but then I'd need the PD AI and that's neuter the mass of other small guns aboard this monster. So instead I've used Neutrino Disruptors. For light missile support, Neutrino missile launchers top it off. That said, the disruptors do nothing against Clarent missiles, they track far too well (disruptors work like graviton beams, spinning missiles out of control). And the best part? It spent most of it's time overloaded in the face of an Archbishop and a few Jesuits.
Well yeah, the Templar ships have the advantage of the Excalibur Core after all. -50% weapon flux costs is a huge difference. :P
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Silver Silence on January 11, 2015, 11:52:20 AM
The enemy Templar railguns were spiking my flux so even though I have a pretty deep flux reserve, I could max it out pretty quick and then the Templar guns would push me over the edge and cause a hefty overload, even with 50% overload reduction. Actually took enough Clarents to the face to be resorting to the hull repair skill keeping me at 50% HP. This thing unfairly destroys any other faction, but the Templar still wreck it.  :D I've run Neutrino ships this hot on flux instability before, usually the extreme passive dissipation means I can dump the flux in seconds, especially with the faster venting perk. But no, my reactions were a little slow and I wasn't expecting the Templar weaponry to be having a noticeable effect on flux because it was such a massive reserve. I guess the bonus flux damage is percentage based to make it scalable. Just means that against Neutrino ships, they punch well beyond their weight.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 11, 2015, 12:05:03 PM
The enemy Templar railguns were spiking my flux so even though I have a pretty deep flux reserve, I could max it out pretty quick and then the Templar guns would push me over the edge and cause a hefty overload, even with 50% overload reduction. Actually took enough Clarents to the face to be resorting to the hull repair skill keeping me at 50% HP. This thing unfairly destroys any other faction, but the Templar still wreck it.  :D I've run Neutrino ships this hot on flux instability before, usually the extreme passive dissipation means I can dump the flux in seconds, especially with the faster venting perk. But no, my reactions were a little slow and I wasn't expecting the Templar weaponry to be having a noticeable effect on flux because it was such a massive reserve. I guess the bonus flux damage is percentage based to make it scalable. Just means that against Neutrino ships, they punch well beyond their weight.
It doesn't scale, but it does go up surprisingly quickly if you get surrounded.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Silver Silence on January 11, 2015, 12:14:29 PM
Being surrounded didn't seem like much of a biggie as most Templar fleets predominantly contain Jesuits and this was maybe the third or fourth Archbishop I had fought. The ship's system was the phase teleporter, so I blinked into the fray facing the Archbishop, didn't volley it off the field, maxed out the flux and then was pushed over the edge and the rest of the fight was mostly me getting a volley off before being overloaded again. Was fun. No complaints, was my own foolishness.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Velox on January 14, 2015, 01:04:45 PM

I've been trying a trade fleet and as far as I can tell the Templars have made this totally impossible.  Even with augmented engines and tugs there's no way a trade fleet of any reasonably large ships can escape even small templar fleets, and escorts (a pair of Geminis, a Princeps, and whatever fighters I've been able to purchase) can't even flee themselves, let alone buy the freighters time to get out.  I'm only a year or so in and the periodic rep drops have me down to vengeful already, and there's no way I have either the character levels or heavy ship resources to fight them.  Is this how it's supposed to work?

I've recently added Diable, SCY, and Neutrino - is there any chance that could be making the Templars hate me faster than they're (I presume) supposed to start hating me?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Silver Silence on January 14, 2015, 01:20:07 PM
None of those factions should be a problem. I added them to my game and restarted to play with them and about the only thing relating to the Templar that seemed out of the ordinary after doing so was that the Templar were neutral. I assumed it was either because my last game was a pirate start and everyone disliked me 'cept the Mayorate. My guess is they support "free" trade. My gamey guess is so that pirate players have at least one friendly faction to get other ships and weapons from, but I digress. This game I started in alignment with the Tri-Tachyon and went to pick off some Templar frigates that survived a fight with a bigger fleet and noticed they were neutral. Decided to leave them be until they actually come at me wanting blood.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 14, 2015, 02:06:34 PM
Templars generally start off at Inhospitable.  When you trade with the Luddic Church, the Templars don't like it one bit and you will lose rep.

By the way, Templar ships are really slow.  Unless Jesuits are swarming you, most of your fleet should be getting away.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Velox on January 14, 2015, 04:42:55 PM
Templars generally start off at Inhospitable.  When you trade with the Luddic Church, the Templars don't like it one bit and you will lose rep.

By the way, Templar ships are really slow.  Unless Jesuits are swarming you, most of your fleet should be getting away.

Is that trading when there are Templar ships nearby, or does word just get out?  As a trader, I spent a good bit of time buying food at Tartessus as per the norm, and had never seen the massive rep hits happen before.  As it is, the burn rate of my fleet (I'm level 31 with the speed boosts available there) can't get above 4, and and I've never been able to outrun a Templar fleet.  When they have caught me, I've issued an immediate full retreat order and the fighter wings have mostly gotten away, but the the Geminis, Princeps, Atlasses, Phaeton (with unstable injector), Rook, Valkyrie, and Ox(en) are vapor before the fighter wings even hit the exit points.  I'm not super familiar with the templar ships but from looking at the screenshots in this thread I think the last group I experienced this with was a Paladin, a crusader, and 2 (3?) of the little ones that keep turning into lightning bolts briefly - Jesuits?  Maybe I just somehow got incredibly lucky in the past but my reputation is at vengeful (80) with the Templar already at 31.

Do I have any options other than just deleting my character and going back to leveling by doing nothing but attacking/pursuing pirates?  It's been kind of need staying below vengeful with them, but not at the cost of instantly losing everything if a templar fleet sees me.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 14, 2015, 04:57:44 PM
Templars generally start off at Inhospitable.  When you trade with the Luddic Church, the Templars don't like it one bit and you will lose rep.

By the way, Templar ships are really slow.  Unless Jesuits are swarming you, most of your fleet should be getting away.

Is that trading when there are Templar ships nearby, or does word just get out?  As a trader, I spent a good bit of time buying food at Tartessus as per the norm, and had never seen the massive rep hits happen before.  As it is, the burn rate of my fleet (I'm level 31 with the speed boosts available there) can't get above 4, and and I've never been able to outrun a Templar fleet.  When they have caught me, I've issued an immediate full retreat order and the fighter wings have mostly gotten away, but the the Geminis, Princeps, Atlasses, Phaeton (with unstable injector), Rook, Valkyrie, and Ox(en) are vapor before the fighter wings even hit the exit points.  I'm not super familiar with the templar ships but from looking at the screenshots in this thread I think the last group I experienced this with was a Paladin, a crusader, and 2 (3?) of the little ones that keep turning into lightning bolts briefly - Jesuits?  Maybe I just somehow got incredibly lucky in the past but my reputation is at vengeful (80) with the Templar already at 31.

Do I have any options other than just deleting my character and going back to leveling by doing nothing but attacking/pursuing pirates?  It's been kind of need staying below vengeful with them, but not at the cost of instantly losing everything if a templar fleet sees me.


I'll tone down the rate at which you lose rep in the next update.  However, in the end, the point of the Templars is that they're threatening and make the game harder.  At level 31 you're well into midgame and should probably invest in hardier escorts; the Templars aren't going to give two shits about some fighter wings.  When you have an Atlas, it's generally a good idea to have a strong escort like a Dominator.

Are you using SS+, by the way?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tommy on January 14, 2015, 05:05:55 PM
I literally wouldn't have anything to fight, if not for the Templars. It's the most awesome faction late game.

We totally need another late game, OP faction, from you Dark :) Or at least that capital Templar ship your were talking about!
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Velox on January 14, 2015, 05:25:01 PM
Templars generally start off at Inhospitable.  When you trade with the Luddic Church, the Templars don't like it one bit and you will lose rep.

By the way, Templar ships are really slow.  Unless Jesuits are swarming you, most of your fleet should be getting away.

Is that trading when there are Templar ships nearby, or does word just get out?  As a trader, I spent a good bit of time buying food at Tartessus as per the norm, and had never seen the massive rep hits happen before.  As it is, the burn rate of my fleet (I'm level 31 with the speed boosts available there) can't get above 4, and and I've never been able to outrun a Templar fleet.  When they have caught me, I've issued an immediate full retreat order and the fighter wings have mostly gotten away, but the the Geminis, Princeps, Atlasses, Phaeton (with unstable injector), Rook, Valkyrie, and Ox(en) are vapor before the fighter wings even hit the exit points.  I'm not super familiar with the templar ships but from looking at the screenshots in this thread I think the last group I experienced this with was a Paladin, a crusader, and 2 (3?) of the little ones that keep turning into lightning bolts briefly - Jesuits?  Maybe I just somehow got incredibly lucky in the past but my reputation is at vengeful (80) with the Templar already at 31.

Do I have any options other than just deleting my character and going back to leveling by doing nothing but attacking/pursuing pirates?  It's been kind of need staying below vengeful with them, but not at the cost of instantly losing everything if a templar fleet sees me.


I'll tone down the rate at which you lose rep in the next update.  However, in the end, the point of the Templars is that they're threatening and make the game harder.  At level 31 you're well into midgame and should probably invest in hardier escorts; the Templars aren't going to give two shits about some fighter wings.  When you have an Atlas, it's generally a good idea to have a strong escort like a Dominator.

Are you using SS+, by the way?

Yeah, SS+.  Which, by the way, is doubleplus good!  I just wanted to try out an armed merchant fleet - Circes, Leviathans, Geminis with fighter wings, and some light warships - centurion heavy destroyers, maybe kestrels or the like - with a character maxing out logistics and tech for the "go team!" sort of feel.  Try to avoid the big baddies, fight when raided, etc.  It took me until level 31 to scrape up the rep and money for the fistful of Geminis and Mules, plus the captured Princeps and some nice fighter cover (TriTach claws, some Neutrino wings, and some misc. Gladius and Broadsword flights for variety) plus a handful of SCY mining/boarding destroyers.  (I picked the "honest merchant" start, after all!)  If the Templars are going to be going vendetta on me by that point, though, it's seems clear that's not a way the game can be played with the Templars around. 

It's kind of funny because I leveled my previous character through pure combat and nothing else - lots of merciless hunting down/destroying/pursuing pirate fleets - and had worked my way up to an Onslaught and Caesar fleet backbone with a few escorts.  The Templars don't mind that route though!

So is it just trading with the Luddies?  Maybe I can give the honest merchant thing another shot some time.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: MesoTroniK on January 14, 2015, 05:27:12 PM
I literally wouldn't have anything to fight, if not for the Templars. It's the most awesome faction late game.

We totally need another late game, OP faction, from you Dark :) Or at least that capital Templar ship your were talking about!

I will be making a "boss" faction sometime this year... You might be able to say two of them though one is not in the conventional sense folks would think of ;)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Velox on January 14, 2015, 05:35:16 PM
I literally wouldn't have anything to fight, if not for the Templars. It's the most awesome faction late game.

We totally need another late game, OP faction, from you Dark :) Or at least that capital Templar ship your were talking about!

I will be making a "boss" faction sometime this year... You might be able to say two of them though one is not in the conventional sense folks would think of ;)

Gamera and Mothra are the first things that popped into my head there.  I'm guessing those probably aren't the two you're referring to... :)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 14, 2015, 05:43:53 PM
Yeah, SS+.  Which, by the way, is doubleplus good!  I just wanted to try out an armed merchant fleet - Circes, Leviathans, Geminis with fighter wings, and some light warships - centurion heavy destroyers, maybe kestrels or the like - with a character maxing out logistics and tech for the "go team!" sort of feel.  Try to avoid the big baddies, fight when raided, etc.  It took me until level 31 to scrape up the rep and money for the fistful of Geminis and Mules, plus the captured Princeps and some nice fighter cover (TriTach claws, some Neutrino wings, and some misc. Gladius and Broadsword flights for variety) plus a handful of SCY mining/boarding destroyers.  (I picked the "honest merchant" start, after all!)  If the Templars are going to be going vendetta on me by that point, though, it's seems clear that's not a way the game can be played with the Templars around. 

It's kind of funny because I leveled my previous character through pure combat and nothing else - lots of merciless hunting down/destroying/pursuing pirate fleets - and had worked my way up to an Onslaught and Caesar fleet backbone with a few escorts.  The Templars don't mind that route though!

So is it just trading with the Luddies?  Maybe I can give the honest merchant thing another shot some time.

You could try flying near a big patrol if a Templar is tailing you.  Every fraction in the game is willing to fight them, after all.  While the patrol is unlikely to win, it will slow down the fleet or weaken it enough that it isn't as much of a threat.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Velox on January 14, 2015, 06:05:42 PM
Yeah, SS+.  Which, by the way, is doubleplus good!  I just wanted to try out an armed merchant fleet - Circes, Leviathans, Geminis with fighter wings, and some light warships - centurion heavy destroyers, maybe kestrels or the like - with a character maxing out logistics and tech for the "go team!" sort of feel.  Try to avoid the big baddies, fight when raided, etc.  It took me until level 31 to scrape up the rep and money for the fistful of Geminis and Mules, plus the captured Princeps and some nice fighter cover (TriTach claws, some Neutrino wings, and some misc. Gladius and Broadsword flights for variety) plus a handful of SCY mining/boarding destroyers.  (I picked the "honest merchant" start, after all!)  If the Templars are going to be going vendetta on me by that point, though, it's seems clear that's not a way the game can be played with the Templars around. 

It's kind of funny because I leveled my previous character through pure combat and nothing else - lots of merciless hunting down/destroying/pursuing pirate fleets - and had worked my way up to an Onslaught and Caesar fleet backbone with a few escorts.  The Templars don't mind that route though!

So is it just trading with the Luddies?  Maybe I can give the honest merchant thing another shot some time.

You could try flying near a big patrol if a Templar is tailing you.  Every fraction in the game is willing to fight them, after all.  While the patrol is unlikely to win, it will slow down the fleet or weaken it enough that it isn't as much of a threat.

Yeah that's saved me a couple of times.  :)  I guess I just kind of misunderstood the whole point of the Templar.  I was thinking of a "I set off into space, explore the different worlds and try my hand at some different trades, establish relations with different factions and work my way up to being able to buy some cool stuff, collect a few different sorts of fleets, play "gotta catch 'em all" with the omnifactory, just eventually become a force of sorts in my own right - and then throw my lot in with the people of the sector against the Templar threat" sort of story - Templars as the ever-present affliction of my home sector that one day I'll be ready to help face.  If I'm understanding better now, they're more for people who know exactly how to go directly from nobody to optimized characters with the most powerful fleets and need something tougher to fight. 

That's totally cool, btw!  But it sounds like they're something to turn off for someone like me who enjoys the slow build-up, fiddling with odd fleet compositions (I learned how to win against some pretty decent odds with a Princeps flagship and a couple of fighter wings, it was awesome!)  But playing under the shadow of the dropping hammer just isn't my thing - hardcore I definitely ain't.  :)

Thanks for discussing with me and helping me get what's going on.  You do amazingly cool stuff, and thank you!
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 14, 2015, 06:18:27 PM
The Templars are meant as an endgame challenge for everybody, not really min-maxers.  However, one thing I wanted to avoid was for them to be completely absent from most of the game, hence the occasional likely/forced battle.  I'll try to make the fleets that hunt you down a little smaller, though.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: jupjupy on January 14, 2015, 10:38:04 PM
So I decided to test out massive fleets against Templar fleets in Campaign, and I've reached the conclusion that the AI simply cannot handle fighting most Templar vessels.

Heres the results against a largeish sized Templar Fleet - 2 Paladins and a handful of Jesuits, along with a single Teuton wing.

Diable Avionics: x2 Storm, x1 Haze, x1 Gust, x4 Hayle, and about 10 assorted Wanzer wings.
- Utterly destroyed. Only took out one Jesuit.

Scy: x3 Nemean Lion, x4 Sthenos (A), x4 Lamia (A), x8 Talos, x3 Manticore Swarm
- Didnt even break a sweat. Lost 3 Talos frigates. From what I can observe, it seems beam weapons are notoriously effective against Templar vessels.

Imperium: x1 Caesar, x2 Dominus, x4 Eagle, x2 Centurion, x10 Invictus
- Lost everything except one Domnius. Templar started retreating once I destroyed both Paladins.

Vanilla Midline Fleet: x2 Conquest, x6 Eagle, x2 Heron, x4 Hammerhead, x6 Thunder
- Got demolished similar to Diable. Vanilla weapons don't cut it against the Templar.

Neutrino: x1 Jackhammer, x3 Lathe, x3 Hacksaw, x2 Sledgehammer, x8 Relativity
- Even-ish battle. Ships kept getting lost to Clarents that went around the tiny shields of Neutrino.

I rather enjoy the challenge, actually. I think they're in a very nice spot right now (though maybe just a few more Templar ships would be nice).

Edit: Forgot to add, this is with a 5/10/7 skilled character.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 14, 2015, 11:02:10 PM
Heh, Conquests are notoriously bad against Templars and Thunder wings are unlikely to affect Templars due to the fact that their shields cover the whole hull.  Even the Eagles have a slight disadvantage because their wide shield coverage leaves more surface area to get blasted with hard flux when those priwen bursts go off.

TWIGLib ships are effective against Templars due to the nature of that mod, so all those armored ships swung the battle in your favor.  The beam thing, however, is intentional, but will probably be nerfed once the next patch comes in, due to the vanilla changes to beam weapons.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tartiflette on January 15, 2015, 12:29:05 AM
Hum, the Nemean Lion is as dangerous as a Paragon, if not more depending on the loadout. So it's no surprise you didn't had trouble to take them out, especially if you were using hard hitting Scy weapons (witch is, most of them actually).

It's main advantages are, well the armor thing that can protect from a pair of reapers, the 50% damage reduction when closed and that include venting or overloading, the ability to fire PD weapons even when venting, and a decent combat speed. It's drawbacks are that it is disgustingly slow out of battle, costly to repair if you lost some armors pieces, and it's completely front focused armament leaving a VERY vulnerable, armor-less, rear.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Velox on January 15, 2015, 03:13:35 PM

Latest casualties:
(support ships)
Rook
Atlas
Phaeton
Locomotive
Buffalo

Circe
Gemini x3
Sloop
Wolf
Megara

(fighter wings)
Drohne scout
Inanna interceptor x 2
Angha bomber x 2
Gladius heavy fighter
Claw assault fighter x 2

vs.

Crusader x3
Jesuit x4
Teuton wing x2

I actually killed three of the Jesuits - not a mark on the rest of them.  Sad me!
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tommy on January 15, 2015, 03:42:15 PM
Just get a hold of a Rhon laser, put it on a Tempest, and you can kill Jesuits easy, without breaking a sweat. You can sometimes find Rhons in Black Markets.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Wyvern on January 15, 2015, 04:11:05 PM
I find heavy blasters to also be excellent anti-templar weapons.  Then again, if you can support their flux costs, they're excellent anti-anything weapons.

Typically for anti-templar use I'll focus on high shot damage / anti-armor weapons; a templar vessel that's had its armor stripped is generally not long for this world.  Beams are good too, especially burst PD for its better armor penetration.

(The Rhon, by contrast, I find performs at its best on phase ships - since they can cloak to dissipate soft flux safely.)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: jupjupy on January 15, 2015, 09:34:44 PM
I found that a Wolf with a single Longinus (and nothing else except maybe a couple of harpoons or whatever) is absolutely deadly if you max out flux vents and capacitators, with ITU and Optics. Templar ships arent very tough against their own weapons.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 15, 2015, 09:41:46 PM
Of course, the difficulty is actually getting those weapons.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: angrytigerp on January 15, 2015, 10:03:11 PM
Of course, the difficulty is actually getting those weapons.

I've never seemed to have issues stockpiling Templar weaponry, but then again I've slaughtered every hapless sub capital fleet I could reach.

Although in my newest Omnifactory-included SS+ playthrough, I have yet to aggro the Temps. Is their gear proportionately overpriced? If not, with OF back to being available, it needs to be.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Nanao-kun on January 15, 2015, 10:11:43 PM
Of course, the difficulty is actually getting those weapons.

I've never seemed to have issues stockpiling Templar weaponry, but then again I've slaughtered every hapless sub capital fleet I could reach.

Although in my newest Omnifactory-included SS+ playthrough, I have yet to aggro the Temps. Is their gear proportionately overpriced? If not, with OF back to being available, it needs to be.
You can't replicate Templar weapons with the OF last time I checked.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tommy on January 16, 2015, 02:23:12 AM
I concur. Templar weapons cannot be replicated. You will get a message saying this aswell.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: orost on January 16, 2015, 10:08:46 AM
Are bounty fleets supposed to have Templar weapons? I imagine a very-high level pirate could get their hands on one for their flagship, but I keep getting them thrown at me all the time. This relatively small 120k credit fleet alone has a Secace and FOUR Clarent launchers, and I've seen Clarents in fleets as small as 50k credits. It's making things much harder than I think they should be.

Playing with SS+.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tommy on January 16, 2015, 11:32:01 AM
SS+ is higher difficulty. I actually truly enjoy the extra difficulty. You should to, since it's way easier to get your hands on some Templar weapons by killing Vanilla ships, rather than the Templar's :)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Velox on January 16, 2015, 11:52:59 AM
Latest casualties:

Smaller fleet this time, since I had less time to rebuild.

(support ships)
Rook
Locomotive
Construction Rig

(trade fleet)
Leviathan
Gemini x 2

(escorts)
Maximus adv. frigate
Monitor PD
Foraker carrier

(fighter wings)
Drohne x 1
Inanna interceptor x 2
Gladius x 1
Agha bomber x 1
Claw assault x 2

vs.

Crusader x 5
Jesuit x 3
Teuton Smiter wing x2

Fleet was sitting on a jump point when I entered hyperspace.  ~15% armor damage on a pair of Jesuits and wiped out one Teuton wing!  Not a scratch on the rest.  I escaped with two shuttles and some partial fighter wings.

UPDATE:

200+ crew members in a fleet that could accommodate like 50 meant burn speed was stuck permanently at zero since you can't get rid of crew.  Entire fleet annihilated - deleting this character and starting over.

Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 16, 2015, 12:41:57 PM
You were using injectors/augmented engines to get your ships to be faster, right?  It's hard to escape without those.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Velox on January 16, 2015, 02:16:12 PM

Yeah, it was the two throw-away boarding suicide shuttles that got away; the rest I had fitted to actually fight (well, except the Leviathan, to keep my burn speed from being total crap.)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Creepin on January 21, 2015, 05:12:32 AM
Is there a Templars market at all which I could get access to by grinding standing towards Templars, or there's no Templars market whatsoever? I've found a Templars system, where I was forbidden to land on a sole inhabited planet, and I'm not sure if it's the top interaction I'll see from Templars, or there's a way to be accepted there.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tommy on January 21, 2015, 06:45:57 AM
You will be permitted to land on Ascalon from Welcoming or Friendly. Can't remember exactly, but above 30 relationship anyway.

Also, the only real way to gain friendship with them is to participate in Crusade, and kill any units besides Templares, in the system that currently has a Crusade. The more units you kill, the better.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Creepin on January 21, 2015, 06:53:21 AM
Tommy, thank you, this was exactly the info I was looking for :)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: orost on January 21, 2015, 09:47:52 AM
Exploit: if a Templar ship has been disabled and is about to blow (it has the sparkles) and you end the battle via Claim Victory before it explodes, it will not be destroyed. I just accidentally captured a Paladin that way. (And I'm going to shamelessly keep it)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tartiflette on January 21, 2015, 10:45:51 AM
Noooooooo, why did you have to say it! Now DR will try to prevent it!  :o
(Actually I didn't knew, but I will shamelessly try it too)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Wyvern on January 21, 2015, 11:11:23 AM
You will be permitted to land on Ascalon from Welcoming or Friendly. Can't remember exactly, but above 30 relationship anyway.

Also, the only real way to gain friendship with them is to participate in Crusade, and kill any units besides Templares, in the system that currently has a Crusade. The more units you kill, the better.

As a note, while participating in crusades starts out being a good way to get templar reputation, it does eventually fall off; kill counts that used to net +30 reputation start giving only +3.

At that point, the best option is to fight enemy fleets near Ascalon (which has the side-benefit that there's no risk of pushing your rep with other factions below -75).  You can sometimes lure fleets over there, and every so often (if you're using Templar with SS+) the church of Ludd will send a "purification fleet".  Fair warning: the purification fleet always has a supercapital flagship with combat 10.  Which means it will slowly regenerate hull towards 50%.  Which means you need to bring a fair amount of firepower in order to burst it down in the brief window while it's venting.  My standard Shadowyards Mimir loadout only just barely meets that firepower requirement, so if you're one of those players who likes trying to kill everything with a Medusa... good luck?

Aside to Dark.Revenant: The purification fleet was a fun fight the first time.  Okay the second.  And really kinda tedious after that; the Luddic supercapital isn't particularly threatening, since it's so easy to back off and vent; just make sure to time it for right after the main gun fires.  Not sure if you can do this, but I know you have some mechanism for random variants - it would be kinda neat if the purification fleet made much-more-common-than-normal use of scavenged templar weaponry or even the occasional ship.
I'd also suggest increasing its frequency, and/or making it recognize when it's lost most of its power and should go home - had a few times where it spent ages flying around with just a few surviving non-combat ships or fighter wings.  And the really tedious part of grinding up rep with this isn't the battles, but waiting for a new purification fleet to get sent out after you smashed the old one.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 21, 2015, 02:48:59 PM
Exploit: if a Templar ship has been disabled and is about to blow (it has the sparkles) and you end the battle via Claim Victory before it explodes, it will not be destroyed. I just accidentally captured a Paladin that way. (And I'm going to shamelessly keep it)

Can't really do anything about that.  Consider it a cheat or something.


Aside to Dark.Revenant: The purification fleet was a fun fight the first time.  Okay the second.  And really kinda tedious after that; the Luddic supercapital isn't particularly threatening, since it's so easy to back off and vent; just make sure to time it for right after the main gun fires.  Not sure if you can do this, but I know you have some mechanism for random variants - it would be kinda neat if the purification fleet made much-more-common-than-normal use of scavenged templar weaponry or even the occasional ship.
I'd also suggest increasing its frequency, and/or making it recognize when it's lost most of its power and should go home - had a few times where it spent ages flying around with just a few surviving non-combat ships or fighter wings.  And the really tedious part of grinding up rep with this isn't the battles, but waiting for a new purification fleet to get sent out after you smashed the old one.

It's meant to be a late-game challenge.  Making it more frequent would defeat the point of holy crusades.  However, I will make it have a smarter AI and have it spawn with a few escort fleets to fight with it.

The Luddic Church does not use Templar tech.  Ever.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Lopunny Zen on January 23, 2015, 06:54:57 PM
oh good...a cool team I cant play as in vanilla...and exerlin is not up to date ever...:P
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tartiflette on January 24, 2015, 01:57:51 AM
oh good...a cool team I cant play as in vanilla...and exerlin is not up to date ever...:P

Did you complained you couldn't build Progenitors ships in Homeworld 2? Remnants in Stardrive? Pirates ships in Sins of A Solar Empire? Control Mechanoids in Nexus? Nomads in Freelancers? Reapers in Mass Effect? Necromorphs in Dead Space? Aliens in X-com? Aliens in Aliens Isolation? The alien boss in Metal Slug? The ball in Arkanoid? Both bars in Pong?

If you did, maybe you should consult the definition of a game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game), because overcoming a challenge is kinda the whole point of any and every game.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Silver Silence on January 24, 2015, 05:44:18 AM
Did you complained you couldn't build Progenitors ships in Homeworld 2? Remnants in Stardrive? Pirates ships in Sins of A Solar Empire? Control Mechanoids in Nexus? Nomads in Freelancers? Reapers in Mass Effect? Necromorphs in Dead Space? Aliens in X-com? Aliens in Aliens Isolation? The alien boss in Metal Slug? The ball in Arkanoid? Both bars in Pong?

If you did, maybe you should consult the definition of a game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game), because overcoming a challenge is kinda the whole point of any and every game.

Ah, Lopunny always has something to complain about. You get used to it.


Exploit: if a Templar ship has been disabled and is about to blow (it has the sparkles) and you end the battle via Claim Victory before it explodes, it will not be destroyed. I just accidentally captured a Paladin that way. (And I'm going to shamelessly keep it)
It's a part of the base game. Once a battle is over, everyone can spontaneously die during the fadeout and will be revived magically at the review of the battle. An unintended side effect is that ships destroyed by gross overkill (or catastrophic systems failure in the case of the Templar) are brought back from the dead because of it. Sort of, anyway, still have to be lucky enough to have it be salvageable.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Lopunny Zen on January 24, 2015, 10:26:05 AM
I said nothing of those sorts XD
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Histidine on January 25, 2015, 06:48:14 AM
I captured a Crusader. It later got disabled in a fight with an Archbishop, the core went off and it exploded. But after the battle, I passed the repair dice roll and got it back. Huh. Lucky me. (It lost all its cool Templar weapons though)

I also got a capture roll on the Archbishop, but it had 350 survivors aboard and I had like 20 marines. q_q
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Silver Silence on January 25, 2015, 09:47:06 AM
The one time I had an Archbishop for capture, it exploded in my face and took my borrowed Monolith with it.  :(
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: ahrenjb on January 27, 2015, 12:58:12 PM
Is the boarding-action self destruct of these ships especially powerful compared to other vessels? I tried to capture a Jesuit class frigate and it cato'd, taking the nearly full health SCY Boar-Class missile cruiser I used with it. Not complaining, or even necessarily saying this should be changed, but I was a little surprised.

Anyway, really interesting mod DR. I'm playing my first game with the Templars and they've certainly added an element of much needed difficulty to the end-game. Haven't captured any vessels yet, but I hope to soon. My first fight against a Templar fleet was a shocking experience to say the least. The whole faction has a very clearly defined feel to them, and it's a major departure from fighting other fleets. It's rarely boring, and I find myself going out of my way to pick fights with smaller fleets for excitement. I only recently managed to destroy my first cruiser sized vessel, very satisfying. I'll also say that despite the challenge they present, they don't give me the "obnoxiously OP" vibe that powerful ships from less experienced modders give off. AI faction fleets can still destroy them easily enough that they don't ruin whole systems at a time, but they certainly present an obstacle of sorts if you're trying to function in a system they're crusading.

I've captured a handful of weapons, but the only one I'm currently using is a single Rhon laser, in the front small universal slot of the II battlecruiser. Great for keeping frigates off my back.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Wyvern on January 27, 2015, 01:34:49 PM
I've captured a handful of weapons, but the only one I'm currently using is a single Rhon laser, in the front small universal slot of the II battlecruiser. Great for keeping frigates off my back.
Yeah, the templar weapons are extremely niche, due to high ordnance point and flux costs.  Powerful, sure, but most of the time you're better off with vanilla weaponry.

(Amusingly, this applies to Templar ships, as well; especially their frigates work wonderfully with a heavy blaster in that medium slot instead of either of the templar medium energy weapons, and their cruisers are a perfect platform for a Mjolnir cannon or plasma cannon... The destroyers & carriers kinda need to use templar weapons, though, due to their low speed - you need all the range you can get, and templar weapons tend to have a significant range advantage over similar vanilla weapons.)

The exceptions tend to come with high-tech ships that have relatively few weapon slots, or phase ships that just work better with high-dps high-cost weapons to start with.  (For example, my current standard Afflictor loadout uses a single rhon laser with the point-defense-AI hullmod - plus 2x antimatter blaster and some torpedos.  And an Apogee with an autopulse laser and 2x longinus is quite potent - if you're careful about hitting hold fire when the lasers are just driving up your flux to no point.)

In general, I think Dark.Revenant went a bit overboard on trying to keep the templar weapons balanced with vanilla ones... but I'll also admit that that's far better than making them no-brainer always-superior options.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Cyan Leader on January 27, 2015, 03:04:55 PM
This mods makes me want to start my own boss faction, it's such a neat idea.

By the way, I was a little disappointed when I found out that the fleets in the Templar's system were about the same size as the one sent in crusades. That is supposed to be the hardest area in the game right now so I expected to find some planetary defense fleets with several capitals, but they were pretty small. If you manage to handle the expeditions you'll handle their system fine.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 27, 2015, 05:47:59 PM
The Templar weapons have to be relatively balanced relative to vanilla weapons to avoid becoming instant-win options.  It's not that hard to kill a few Templar ships to snatch up a Sentenia or Longinus, after all.  The Sentenia is great for the relatively slot-starved Templar ships since it's a great multi-role weapon; it can whack drones and fighters, pressure shields, rip apart hull, and hit flanking targets.  The Longinus can melt through armor very quickly and forces the enemy to keep shields up, which makes the Sentenia extra effective.  The Galatine serves as EMP, shield-breaking damage, and burst damage; vanilla EMP weapons don't really have the punch this thing can dish out.

Their weapons are meant to serve multiple purposes competently.  They're not efficient from a flux or OP point of view but they fill every role just as well as the high-end vanilla weapons.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Cycerin on January 27, 2015, 05:52:10 PM
Also, Templar weapons have really high hit success compared to many vanilla weapons.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Blaze on January 27, 2015, 07:13:20 PM
Not to mention they're just really cool.

I love the missile effect, but I've never seen one drop for me. Is it a built-in weapon?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tommy on January 27, 2015, 07:56:00 PM
There are 4 types. Single Clarents, double Clarents, the 5 Clarents I believe and the bigger launcher that launches one Clarent super missile that splits into 4 or 5 other Clarents before impact.

They all drop.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: orost on January 27, 2015, 08:22:33 PM
The Templar weapons aren't universal "I-win" buttons, but they can be ludicrously powerful if used right. Have you ever tried putting 4 Longinus lasers and a couple Galatines on a Paragon, plus a bunch of Rhon lasers and Integrated PD AI? It outperforms any vanilla Paragon loadout I've tried by a big margin, just melting through waves and waves of enemies, and the Rhons make superbly efficient PD that makes you essentially immune to missiles.

Another very successful build was an Eagle with 2 x Longinus and 2 x Galatine, it absolutely destroyes anything short of a Paladin, and it can kill that too given some support.

Both need extremely careful flux management however - you can't leave the lasers on autofire, you need to be constantly, actively managing them to avoid overload.

That said, I'd be in favor of making these weapons slightly easier to use (small OP and flux reduction) at the cost of being harder to obtain (stop them from appearing in shops! that just feels like cheating!). It would be fun to have more options in using them, not strictly limited to loadouts completely optimized around them.

@Tommy: also the fighter variant, which I think is significantly weaker and obviously doesn't drop. I say it's weaker because when I was trying to kill Jesuits with a Tempest (call me a masochist) a single normal Clarent would overload me from 0 flux, but I could take two fighter Clarents and end up at around 95%.

@Blaze: if you're playing SS+, check black markets everywhere. The standard small launcher seems to be strangely common on them.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Histidine on January 27, 2015, 08:36:24 PM
I put a single Longinus on my Mimir. It's absolutely hilarious against fighters/frigates and anything with its shields down, especially when it comes to hoisting Templar units by their own petard.

That is supposed to be the hardest area in the game right now so I expected to find some planetary defense fleets with several capitals, but they were pretty small. If you manage to handle the expeditions you'll handle their system fine.
And if you can't handle their system defences, you can just wait for the Luddic Purification Fleet and follow it around killing all the Templar fleets it weakens. Great for farming.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 27, 2015, 09:37:30 PM
@Tommy: also the fighter variant, which I think is significantly weaker and obviously doesn't drop. I say it's weaker because when I was trying to kill Jesuits with a Tempest (call me a masochist) a single normal Clarent would overload me from 0 flux, but I could take two fighter Clarents and end up at around 95%.

The fighter version is actually slightly stronger because it does the same damage but regenerates ammo very slowly.  However, fighters never benefit from Combat 10's net +70% missile damage boost.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tommy on January 27, 2015, 10:36:35 PM
No idea man, but Starsector without Templars is not Starsector. And I'm saying this with all my heart. It's like the end-game content. And like someone else beautifully said above, you do not get the sense of that traditional OP of adding many zeros to damage (Like the ORI faction is, for example).

Now I'd just wish we could take over stations like we used to do in the previous mod versions of the popular ones, so I can actually "finish" the game :)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Histidine on January 30, 2015, 07:51:15 AM
After capturing my first Paladin I finally figured out what Logistical Conservation is good for.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: orost on February 04, 2015, 03:11:05 AM
Suggestion regarding Antioch: I feel the system isn't dangerous enough. It's no big deal to pop in and make a circle around the system without getting into a single fight, which I think is odd for the home system of an endgame boss faction. If there were two jump points, one entry-only near Ascalon and the other exit-only at fringe, and if fleets there were much more aggressive that would make entering the system an adventure with some risk involved. I wonder if exit-only jump points can be done, though - there aren't any in the game, are there?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: NightfallGemini on February 05, 2015, 08:56:48 PM
Just chiming in to say I finally got my hands on a Jesuit and it owns. Easily one of the most entertaining ships I've flown around solo.

The Schism Drive really does tack down how it feels to be a flying space sword.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Sabaton on February 06, 2015, 09:25:19 AM
 Can you shed some details about the eventually-to-arrive battleship that will blow everyone socks off?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on February 06, 2015, 10:22:02 AM
It will blow your socks off.

And your mind.

And your entire fleet.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: etherealblade on February 06, 2015, 09:05:47 PM
It will blow your socks off.

And your mind.

And your entire fleet.

Excellent. 8D
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Cycerin on February 06, 2015, 09:16:22 PM
Let us bow down in divine meditation as the smell of ozone heralds the imminence of glorious battle.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Taverius on February 06, 2015, 09:45:00 PM
It will blow your socks off.

And your mind.

And your entire fleet.
Happy happy fun time then?

I'll start stocking up on Karkinoses ... or whatever the plural thereof is :D
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tommy on February 07, 2015, 07:09:05 AM
C'MOOOOON battleship :D
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Euqocelbbog on February 07, 2015, 03:59:53 PM
I'll start stocking up on Karkinoses ... or whatever the plural thereof is :D

Karkinoi. ;)
Title: Peacekeeping
Post by: Dark.Revenant on February 07, 2015, 07:05:48 PM
We have information on yet another Templar weapon!

(http://i.imgur.com/ke78rpe.png)


Pax Cannon
(http://i.imgur.com/9fmIdVB.png)
This spreadfire cannon fires clusters of energy bolts, slagging anything caught in its wake. Very powerful for its size, but somewhat unreliable at long range.

The Pax Cannon is the Knights Templar's idea of a peacekeeping weapon: total destruction of target, up close and personal. Seemingly related to the Merced and Sentenia, the Pax Cannon differs from those weapons by splitting its energy into a dozen simultaneous shards, which hurl out of the weapon in a variable spread.

A notable side-effect of the weapon's unusual configuration is that Pax bolts rapidly lose velocity out of the barrel. A nimble ship can avoid most of the damage, provided it is far enough away.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Histidine on February 07, 2015, 08:18:18 PM
Sagittarius ADC on steroids! Awesome.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Cycerin on February 07, 2015, 08:33:17 PM
It's a buckshot weapon, but it's a bit different from the other ones. It's good against large shields and small, fragile targets that try to evade fire, but not that good vs large targets' armor.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tommy on February 08, 2015, 12:13:03 AM
Can't wait for this damn next update!
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on February 09, 2015, 01:26:05 PM
Hey, how do you raise rep with the Templar? I thought it had something to do with the crusades, but I tried you know, "participating" in them, to no avail. Maybe it has to be people that have a base in the system? Idk. Also, I assume its totally impossible to get Templar fighters without them liking you? Sorry if these are dumb questions or have already been answered.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on February 09, 2015, 02:47:39 PM
Yes and Yes.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on February 10, 2015, 01:13:58 AM
Yes and Yes.
So would pirates count if they had a base?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tommy on February 10, 2015, 03:30:40 AM
Quote
Also, I assume its totally impossible to get Templar fighters without them liking you?

Actually ... pro-tip.

Just revisit Tibicena (Try-Tachion) and you can sometimes find Templar fighters on sale (very rarely)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on February 10, 2015, 07:47:35 AM
Yes and Yes.
So would pirates count if they had a base?

No; killing pirates is never a problem even during a crusade.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Death_Silence_66 on February 13, 2015, 09:43:48 AM
My game seems to crash when i switch variants with these ships.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on February 13, 2015, 12:41:04 PM
It shouldn't crash in 0.65.2a.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: orost on February 13, 2015, 12:42:23 PM
I bought a squadron of Templar fighters on Tartessus black market once. So keep your eyes open and you may get lucky pretty much anywhere.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on February 13, 2015, 12:46:49 PM
It shouldn't crash in 0.65.2a.
So wait, this is good for 65.2a?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on February 13, 2015, 12:52:53 PM
It shouldn't crash in 0.65.2a.
So wait, this is good for 65.2a?
Nope, but if it was, it wouldn't crash on changing variants.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on February 13, 2015, 03:04:33 PM
It shouldn't crash in 0.65.2a.
So wait, this is good for 65.2a?
Nope, but if it was, it wouldn't crash on changing variants.
Oh, I misread that. Sorry. Any idea on SS+ and Templars for 65.2a? :)
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tommy on February 13, 2015, 05:04:54 PM
Also, will the Big Baddy ship of the Templars be present in the 0.65.2a version of the mod ? :)

And yeah, an ETA for both mods please!!
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: OOZ662 on February 13, 2015, 05:27:30 PM
ETAs only exist to be missed when something unexpected comes up. It'll come out when it's ready, and that time won't change whether it's disclosed or not. Besides the few seconds of the dev's time saved when not reading a post someone didn't make asking for an ETA, perhaps. ;D
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Protonus on February 15, 2015, 06:47:58 PM
If this Big Daddy of the Templars should exist, it'll probably defending the Templar base just waiting to wreck havoc to anything that comes to be salvaged. *cue pirate speak*

And the new weapon looks great, I just wondered how much coding was settled in that Merced weapon technology though.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: EI on February 15, 2015, 06:49:45 PM
And the new weapon looks great, I just wondered how much coding was settled in that Merced weapon technology though.

It makes your Energy missiles look like it came out of the gutter. c:


Why aren't you answering me? )o)

Oh wait, nevermind. :p
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on February 15, 2015, 09:45:58 PM
Overwhelming range
Kinetic wins this battle
Templars will fall soon
Spoiler
I'm sorry. Couldn't stop myself. But to add something useful and not stupid, not sure what direction you want to take the templars, but In my experience, what I've found they are most vulnerable to is very long range weaponry. Giving a conquest things like mjolnirs and hypervelocity drivers and stacking range mods works exceptionally well, especially against the arch bishop. Fun as it is rolling over paladins like that, figured I'd at least mention it, in case you want them to be as difficult as possible.
[close]
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: EI on February 15, 2015, 10:12:54 PM
Overwhelming range
Kinetic wins this battle
Templars will fall soon
Spoiler
I'm sorry. Couldn't stop myself. But to add something useful and not stupid, not sure what direction you want to take the templars, but In my experience, what I've found they are most vulnerable to is very long range weaponry. Giving a conquest things like mjolnirs and hypervelocity drivers and stacking range mods works exceptionally well, especially against the arch bishop. Fun as it is rolling over paladins like that, figured I'd at least mention it, in case you want them to be as difficult as possible.
[close]

It might've taken you a lot of tricky ballis-shots to get where you are when you deal with the Templars. c:

The Conquest isn't much for a sport shooter since it basically does broadside before ever doing the needed shots to take the Templar down, not to mention the speed the speed and durability the Crusaders could take before downing. Even so, the Conquest would have been broadsided instead before it take its maneuvers to anything that is not an Archbishop.

Or Archbishops doing the Broadside while they slow the Conquest down.


PS: I wanna call Ballistic shots as Ball-shots but I might get in trouble. >-<
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on February 16, 2015, 08:14:38 AM
It might've taken you a lot of tricky ballis-shots to get where you are when you deal with the Templars. c:

The Conquest isn't much for a sport shooter since it basically does broadside before ever doing the needed shots to take the Templar down, not to mention the speed the speed and durability the Crusaders could take before downing. Even so, the Conquest would have been broadsided instead before it take its maneuvers to anything that is not an Archbishop.

Or Archbishops doing the Broadside while they slow the Conquest down.
Its not that hard. With that much EMP damage and range, not even the templars can just sit and slug it out. Hell, if you support it well enough, even the AI can do it. The only time it didn't work was when it got sandwiched between two paladins. The conquest survived, barely, but it was very close. The broadside doesn't really matter much either. What usually happens is the paladin comes careening at you, slams into you, and sends you flying- which is good. Jesuits and fighters counter it, but if you have Protonus' energy missiles thats not even that much a problem, and you can always wait to field it till you actually see a paladin. If you do put energy missiles on it, it basically hard counters the archbishop into oblivion, as the missiles go for the drones first.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Sproginator on February 16, 2015, 10:22:38 AM
Dark, Any chance of a quick mod that just allows me to get a Jesuit when I start campaign? That's all I want for the vanilla game hehe. I'd do it myself but I'm a little rusty lol
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tartiflette on February 16, 2015, 10:29:46 AM
Like Console commands (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4106.0)?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Aklyon on February 16, 2015, 11:22:59 AM
Like Console commands (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4106.0)?
Does CC work for mods that aren't loaded, though?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Tartiflette on February 16, 2015, 11:28:20 AM
nope, how could it? the game load all assets and code on launch
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Sproginator on February 16, 2015, 12:04:18 PM
Soooo, No dice then?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on February 16, 2015, 01:51:34 PM
Soooo, No dice then?
Theres not really a way to do that. It would require all the assets of Templars, so basically the whole mod, short the campaign integration and missions.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Cycerin on February 16, 2015, 03:28:06 PM
Why not just play with Templars enabled? ???
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on February 16, 2015, 03:29:17 PM
Why not just play with Templars enabled? ???
He means this version I assume
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Cycerin on February 16, 2015, 03:33:19 PM
Ah, right. Well, Templars is way too scripted for you to just reduce it to one ship and then the rest works fine.
Title: Sacrifice
Post by: Dark.Revenant on February 16, 2015, 11:36:27 PM
A new type of Templar vessel has surfaced.

(http://i.imgur.com/nCkZ8yf.png)


Martyr-class Illuminator
(http://i.imgur.com/gJzsrej.png)
The Templars' idea of a corvette is the Martyr, a fast attack vessel capable of unmatched agility. Advanced inertial dampeners keep the crew alive while the ship performs up to 120-G maneuvers, while a powerful-but-unstable Templar reactor powers a pair of weapon systems. Somewhat undergunned for a Templar ship, the Martyr-class is nonetheless a dangerous vessel that requires precaution and careful execution to defeat.

The Martyr-class illuminator wields a pair of small weapon slots, plus a Carnwennan Quad-Beam for defense. This is a small weapons package, even by Templar standards, but the onboard Riastrad system can supercharge these weapons, allowing it to inflict terrible damage on the unsuspecting victim. When the Martyr is destroyed, its reactor usually explodes violently, damaging all nearby ships. Unlike other Templar warships, the Martyr's exploding husk is hurled towards hostile vessels during this detonation sequence.

It is thought that the Templars use the Martyr-class to test new recruits, weaponizing their zeal by placing them in these fast, powerful, but relatively fragile vessels, while the senior knights command larger warships.

Unlike most other ships used by the Knights Templar, the Martyr-class illuminator lacks the Priwen Burst Shield. Instead, it mounts the Almace Burst system, which is appropriate for small vessels that lack the flux reserves to unleash a strong Priwen blast.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Protonus on February 17, 2015, 12:52:49 AM
Jesuits and fighters counter it, but if you have Protonus' energy missiles thats not even that much a problem, and you can always wait to field it till you actually see a paladin. If you do put energy missiles on it, it basically hard counters the archbishop into oblivion, as the missiles go for the drones first.

If that's been taken to account for the destruction of major Templar fleets, I might as well nerf the Energy Missiles while I'm at it.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on February 17, 2015, 10:41:35 AM
Jesuits and fighters counter it, but if you have Protonus' energy missiles thats not even that much a problem, and you can always wait to field it till you actually see a paladin. If you do put energy missiles on it, it basically hard counters the archbishop into oblivion, as the missiles go for the drones first.

If that's been taken to account for the destruction of major Templar fleets, I might as well nerf the Energy Missiles while I'm at it.
Pffffffffffffffffffffffffff its not critical. It worked fine before I tried those out, they just add more pressure. I actually put them on so it could be used against something other than templars as well too, and found out that not even the templars can defend against THAT many missiles. They aren't exactly flux efficient, but its something to use the flux and OP for, so I kept it. That and its flashy as hell. If I had a way to take a video, I'd see if I can manage to load up my save and post a version with and without.
.... and I suppose I should mention I tried using your dual hypervelocity drivers, and those may or may not have the ever so slight potential to be mildly misconstrued as... really really good. You didn't hear it from me though. Haven't tried them in 65.2a. The version I did this all with wasn't red and blue, it was just protonian tech if that helps you.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Wyvern on February 17, 2015, 11:51:37 AM
On topic, that's a pretty neat new ship, though... yeah, two small slots (universal I'm guessing?) is kinda light armament.

Also, with the removal of ammo limits from vanilla ballistics, what are you planning on doing with templar ballistics?  Removal of ammo limits, or regenerating ammo, or just leave them as is?
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Nanao-kun on February 17, 2015, 12:40:18 PM
"the Martyr's exploding husk is hurled towards hostile vessels during this detonation sequence."

Oh god.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Sabaton on February 17, 2015, 12:51:39 PM
"the Martyr's exploding husk is hurled towards hostile vessels during this detonation sequence."

Oh god.

A ship sized projectile? Oh yes, this thing screams Templars from the top of its lungs. Im surprised it wasnt included earlier.

Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Sproginator on February 17, 2015, 01:38:10 PM
Soooo, No dice then?
Theres not really a way to do that. It would require all the assets of Templars, so basically the whole mod, short the campaign integration and missions.

That'd do. The whole mod then, just without that stuff :P
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: OOZ662 on February 17, 2015, 02:08:49 PM
Soooo, No dice then?
Theres not really a way to do that. It would require all the assets of Templars, so basically the whole mod, short the campaign integration and missions.

That'd do. The whole mod then, just without that stuff :P
The effort wouldn't be worth the "gain," unless you want to do it yourself. Otherwise just be patient for the updated version or go back to 65.1a if you're having horrible withdrawals.
Title: Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
Post by: Cycerin on February 17, 2015, 02:26:53 PM
"the Martyr's exploding husk is hurled towards hostile vessels during this detonation sequence."

Oh god.

A ship sized projectile? Oh yes, this thing screams Templars from the top of its lungs. Im surprised it wasnt included earlier.



We basically came up with it out of the blue earlier this week.
Title: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4
Post by: Dark.Revenant on February 17, 2015, 07:23:03 PM
Added a ship and a weapon, at long last.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?y739l9133qks6f5)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.4 (https://www.mediafire.com/?bb1cx9ojz49s0vx)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.4.zip)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.04 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.6.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)

We also recommend Version Checker 1.4b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.4
- Updated for Starsector 0.65.2a
- Martyr-class Illuminator added
- Pax Cannon added
- Weapon rebalance pass
- Memory leaks resolved
- Clarent/ROLAND AI and flight profile changed
- Reputation loss from trading with the Ludd decreased
- Luddic Church Purification fleets now have escorts, improved AI
- Crusades improved in general, reputation increases normalized
- No longer illegal to sell your own stuff to Ascalon; no longer illegal to buy back non-Templar weapons
- Fighters are a lot less common in small Templar fleets
- Hard flux dissipation rate adjusted
- Defense fleet AI is a lot more zealous[/center]
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4
Post by: Nanao-kun on February 17, 2015, 07:36:47 PM
The link seems to be for 0.9.3g.

EDIT: The mirror link has the correct file though.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4
Post by: Dark.Revenant on February 17, 2015, 07:43:06 PM
Fixd.
Title: Re: Sacrifice
Post by: EI on February 17, 2015, 08:59:25 PM
Martyr-class Illuminator
(http://i.imgur.com/gJzsrej.png)
The Templars' idea of a corvette is the Martyr, a fast attack vessel capable of unmatched agility. Advanced inertial dampeners keep the crew alive while the ship performs up to 120-G maneuvers, while a powerful-but-unstable Templar reactor powers a pair of weapon systems. Somewhat undergunned for a Templar ship, the Martyr-class is nonetheless a dangerous vessel that requires precaution and careful execution to defeat.

The Martyr-class illuminator wields a pair of small weapon slots, plus a Carnwennan Quad-Beam for defense. This is a small weapons package, even by Templar standards, but the onboard Riastrad system can supercharge these weapons, allowing it to inflict terrible damage on the unsuspecting victim. When the Martyr is destroyed, its reactor usually explodes violently, damaging all nearby ships. Unlike other Templar warships, the Martyr's exploding husk is hurled towards hostile vessels during this detonation sequence.

It is thought that the Templars use the Martyr-class to test new recruits, weaponizing their zeal by placing them in these fast, powerful, but relatively fragile vessels, while the senior knights command larger warships.

Unlike most other ships used by the Knights Templar, the Martyr-class illuminator lacks the Priwen Burst Shield. Instead, it mounts the Almace Burst system, which is appropriate for small vessels that lack the flux reserves to unleash a strong Priwen blast.


This ship is telling me to compare my Chimlies to kill them. o-o
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4
Post by: Sproginator on February 18, 2015, 10:49:10 AM
Added a ship and a weapon, at long last.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?y739l9133qks6f5)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.4 (https://www.mediafire.com/?bb1cx9ojz49s0vx)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.4.zip)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.04 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.6.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)

We also recommend Version Checker 1.4b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.4
- Updated for Starsector 0.65.2a
- Martyr-class Illuminator added
- Pax Cannon added
- Weapon rebalance pass
- Memory leaks resolved
- Clarent/ROLAND AI and flight profile changed
- Reputation loss from trading with the Ludd decreased
- Luddic Church Purification fleets now have escorts, improved AI
- Crusades improved in general, reputation increases normalized
- No longer illegal to sell your own stuff to Ascalon; no longer illegal to buy back non-Templar weapons
- Fighters are a lot less common in small Templar fleets
- Hard flux dissipation rate adjusted
- Defense fleet AI is a lot more zealous[/center]


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

*Cough*

I mean, good job, yay.....
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4
Post by: orost on February 19, 2015, 10:31:27 AM
I just got killed by firing a Clarent at a Jesuit, which bounced it away with a Burst, sending it at a Crusader, which bounced it again, right into my ship. I don't know if that's something the AI is coded to try, or if it was a complete fluke, but either way congratulations on making something that amazing possible.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4
Post by: ahrenjb on February 19, 2015, 01:40:40 PM
I just got killed by firing a Clarent at a Jesuit, which bounced it away with a Burst, sending it at a Crusader, which bounced it again, right into my ship. I don't know if that's something the AI is coded to try, or if it was a complete fluke, but either way congratulations on making something that amazing possible.

I've had a lot of unintentional incidents happen with Clarents, they're a ton of fun that way.

In one instance, some fighters launched Clarents at me from a ways off while I was fighting a Jesuit in a BRDY frigate. I dodged them just in time to see them slingshot around me, burn their engines out, and slam right into the Jesuit I was fighting for the killing blow. Had a good laugh at that, until I was on the receiving end some time later.

A pair of Clarents I launched at another ship did the same thing, orbited then slingshotted off when the engines burned out, throwing them right back into my own ship for an overload.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4
Post by: Cycerin on February 19, 2015, 02:10:00 PM
In one instance, some fighters launched Clarents at me from a ways off while I was fighting a Jesuit in a BRDY frigate. I dodged them just in time to see them slingshot around me, burn their engines out, and slam right into the Jesuit I was fighting for the killing blow. Had a good laugh at that, until I was on the receiving end some time later.

Stuff like this is why I wish I was just recording all the time as I play. It doesn't happen often, but when it does... oh, the unborn gifs that could have been.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on February 19, 2015, 03:00:22 PM
In one instance, some fighters launched Clarents at me from a ways off while I was fighting a Jesuit in a BRDY frigate. I dodged them just in time to see them slingshot around me, burn their engines out, and slam right into the Jesuit I was fighting for the killing blow. Had a good laugh at that, until I was on the receiving end some time later.

Stuff like this is why I wish I was just recording all the time as I play. It doesn't happen often, but when it does... oh, the unborn gifs that could have been.
I've done this with the enemies' hammerclaw missile a few times myself
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4
Post by: Deathfly on February 19, 2015, 09:18:43 PM
Well, I just found that I can replicat Pax Cannon in omnifactory.
Haven't check the Martyr but i think it needs to be check too.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4
Post by: Aklyon on February 20, 2015, 06:08:13 AM
Well, I just found that I can replicat Pax Cannon in omnifactory.
Haven't check the Martyr but i think it needs to be check too.
Isn't one of the omnifactory config options ignore restricted parts, though?
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4
Post by: Deathfly on February 20, 2015, 07:01:23 AM
Well, I just found that I can replicat Pax Cannon in omnifactory.
Haven't check the Martyr but i think it needs to be check too.
Isn't one of the omnifactory config options ignore restricted parts, though?

noop, and I checked Templars\data\config\omnifactory\restricted_weapons.csv and restricted_ships.csv then I found why...
Title: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on March 07, 2015, 11:17:58 PM
Some balance stuff, also Exerelin.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?k6dp5yg8jfg7644)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.4b (https://www.mediafire.com/?k6dp5yg8jfg7644)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.4b.zip)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.05 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.6.7 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Nexerelin 0.2.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0)) (New!)

We also recommend Version Checker 1.4b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.4b
- A few minor fixes
- Rendering issue on custom graphics resolved
- Exerelin compatibility
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: garfu on March 14, 2015, 02:34:30 PM
Re: Nexelerin integration:

It seems like I can't take over Templar stations/planets, is this a bug or???

I have the latest version of all mods and am able to take over/invade all other planets/stations that I'm hostile to.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on March 14, 2015, 03:19:38 PM
Talk to Histidine; Nexerelin is his gig.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: justxlaugh on March 15, 2015, 04:33:41 PM
have you ever thought of making a Templar logistics ship or hauler specific to just them? i find it weird that most other battle fleets in game have logistics or haulers to help stay supplied and running yet the Templar require like 10X more supplies and they have nothing..  ::) must be some Templar magic cargo hold in their ships  :P
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on March 15, 2015, 05:07:34 PM
Templar ships are actually so efficient that they don't use any supplies at all.  However, the player doesn't know how to use them in this manner, so he/she wastes a ton of supplies keeping them running.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Silver Silence on March 19, 2015, 10:48:55 AM
Gawd demn. I cannot figure out a flagship that busts the Templar without resorting to Neutrino ships and abusing their deep flux reserves coupled with absurd vent rates and Ballista spam.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Tommy on March 19, 2015, 12:00:14 PM
You could use tons of vanilla ships. Or Mayorate. Or Shadowyards.

I'm not even including Battleships, because those are almost always a viable choice.

Here are a few examples of cruisers: Driver class (Citadel), Sebastos (Imperium), and my favorite, Tartarus (Shadowyards). Off-course, there are many more. These just came to mind.

PS: The Mayorate battleship with hardened shields can probably stand up to two Paladins and emerge victorious.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: HELMUT on March 19, 2015, 12:39:56 PM
For me, the ultimate ship (other than missile spam) to wreck templars is the SRA Scylla. A cruiser with two large energy mounts that can endlessly kit the templars ships and negate their firepower with its phase cloak. Probably one of the best flagship cruiser in the game to be honest.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Silver Silence on March 19, 2015, 05:35:09 PM
You could use tons of vanilla ships. Or Mayorate. Or Shadowyards.

I'm not even including Battleships, because those are almost always a viable choice.

Here are a few examples of cruisers: Driver class (Citadel), Sebastos (Imperium), and my favorite, Tartarus (Shadowyards). Off-course, there are many more. These just came to mind.

PS: The Mayorate battleship with hardened shields can probably stand up to two Paladins and emerge victorious.

Citadel wasn't updated when I started my playthrough, I died horribly with the Sebastos and I just don't use Shadowyards ships at all. Their guns are okay but I prefer having extreme range and SHI doesn't have that. And I don't use tons of vanilla ships. Cos friendly AI is reckless at best and Templar frigates can capably handle destroyers or smaller cruisers by themselves, let alone bigger ships. The main thing that gets me is a lack of extremely robust PD. Ballistics is not good enough, it doesn't interdict ~6-9 Clarents at once from the bomber wings and if an Archbishop is present, the Clarent bombardment is endless. Burst Repeater Beams work pretty well but they have such extreme range that they waste their charges on everything that comes remotely near.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Tommy on March 19, 2015, 06:31:14 PM
If you're into extreme ranges, and if you do not care for *balance*, you could try the ORI Romb cruiser.

It's basically cheating I guess. I tried it, and I can obliterate 5 Archbishops and 10 Paladins in a single fight, with ONE Romb, without taking a scratch.

But hey, it's not for me.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Silver Silence on March 19, 2015, 07:26:29 PM
I prefer singular ships as opposed to a fleet where most of my losses are out of my hands because the AI doesn't perceive it's enemies and just gets itself encircled with frustrating regularity. Plus there are some things that annoy me about AI compatriots. The Tempest's drone has a pretty hefty agro range on free roam, probably 3x the range of any typical medium energy weapon, but when a Tempest is engaging something, the drone just floats off to the right or left and allows ships to have their shield arc facing the Tempest and the drone. Even if you pilot the Tempest to have the enemy ship between you and your drone, the drone moves around the size to stay more or less at a right angle. Some triple A grade flanking going on there. Even giving the Tempest six drones at once doesn't fix that. They mostly all just bunch up at one side and a token other drone will float on the other side or next to you. They have a more than generous leash to attack a Tempest's target from any angle but they never do. If I'm taking one ship, my ship, into a fight, then anything bad that happens is completely my mistake or underestimation.

For example, so far, I've been underestimating the Templar bombers who are much more eager to dump their entire payload at once than I remember and Clarents are durable enough that ballistic PD doesn't really dish the damage but energy burst PD burn out after overdoing it on the first couple missiles of the volley. It's making me feel the frustration the AI must feel when they try to wander in range of my ship brimming with Gauss Cannons and HVDs. Shields? Nah, dis is kinetic damage, you're not allowed shields. No shields? Nah, dis is emp damage, you're not allowed weapons. So far, I can either tank the Clarents on my shields and be at half flux before the first Jesuit is in range which doesn't leave me cool enough to dump the damage onto the Templar ships as they come in range. Or, I can tank with my face, which works well in a Neutrino ship because they have so much armour, can easily slap Heavy Armour on, have +20% armour from skills and halved damage for hits that only affect your armour, but that only works once or twice, then it reaaaaally bloody hurts. But as Neutrino are my go-to for everything that puts up gud fites, I figured I'd try other ships against them and everything's come up short. Neutrino just lets me be really cheesy by flooding the battlespace with photon needles and using things like the Quasar on the Norn, or the herpderp emitter on the Unsung. Which still amuses me to this day. DERP launchers and HERP emitters. Just needs a LOL cannon to top it off.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Histidine on March 19, 2015, 08:42:08 PM
I've found Mimir to work quite well; it can even skim away from Paladins trying to run it down with Holy Charge. The now actually-useful Níðhöggr can also prick them from afar, although it'll probably be an annoyance at best.

Random fun fact: A tech 10 AI Desdinova with a good loadout can beat a sim Crusader one-on-one with nary a scratch.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: orost on March 27, 2015, 02:36:06 PM
Small AI issue: Priwen Burst AI has incorrect timing when targeted with an Arondight Accelerator, activating as soon as you press the fire button. Instead of deflecting or dodging the projectile, it usually gets hit during the vulnerability period after a Burst. It feels as if it isn't taking into account the Accelerator's chargup time.

@Silver Silence: the best Templar-killers are heavy midline ships. High tech is actually bad because it's impossible to reliably shield-tank Templars, and once a high-tech ship has to vent it's done. Midline can shield-tank well but also is tough enough to vent under heavy fire a few times per battle, which you simply have to do while fighting Templars. The primary consideration for fighting Templars is durability. Anything with less than about 10,000 hull and 2,000 armor rating I consider unfit for that duty.

This ultra-late-game (10/10/10) Victory loadout (http://i.imgur.com/2s3WZSW.png) melts through Templar fleets with ease. Anything less than 4 Paladins or an Archbishop and 2 Paladins is trivial and can be easily done without noticeable damage, completely solo. (Since taking the screenshot I've gotten rid of the Rhons and Integrated PD AI in favor of Repair Unit, Aux Thrusters and some more capacitors, but it doesn't make much difference). Quite a lot of its effectiveness can be attributed to the AI problem described at the beggining of this post, though.

An earlier loadout with mostly non-Templar weapons (http://i.imgur.com/Dyo2XR8.png) works fairly well too. With 5/whatever/10 skills, it can solo a Paladin. It can't take a Paladin and its support, but I bring support of my own.

For that, I use Dictator heavy cruisers from Interstellar Imperium, fit for short-range combat and maximum tank (http://i.imgur.com/c9aQgTh.png). They're tough as nails and actually manage to survive most of the time, although the causalty rate remains fairly high and I wouldn't bother to do it without Omnifactory.

The best vanilla solution I can think of is a Conquest fit with long-range guns and Cyclone reaper launchers. It works reasonably well, although it's a bit fragile for the job. Unfortunately, vanilla doesn't have a midline battleship, so a Conquest has to do.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Megas on March 27, 2015, 04:14:42 PM
Quote
Small AI issue: Priwen Burst AI has incorrect timing when targeted with an Arondight Accelerator, activating as soon as you press the fire button. Instead of deflecting or dodging the projectile, it usually gets hit during the vulnerability period after a Burst. It feels as if it isn't taking into account the Accelerator's chargup time.
Hyperion (or other ship) can bait a Priwen Burst just by firing at the Templar ship's general direction, even if it has no chance of hitting it due to being far out of range.  Make my Hyperion shoot heavy/mining blaster at Templar ship from more a screen away, Templar bursts, then I can use my usual Hyperion tricks and murder the Templar ship like any other.

That assumes I try to use stock weapons on Hyperion against Templars.  Sentenias are so good that I stick them on everything that would normally use blasters or phase lance, even if something else needs to go.

I will write more feedback on Templars later.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: NightfallGemini on March 28, 2015, 09:18:01 AM
So I'm getting some strange slowdown issues whenever I fire a Rhon Laser or Clarent. It drops the FPS down to roughly 23 while firing for no discernible reason. It didn't used to do this before, so I'm not sure if it's Shaderlib screwing up or my drivers (using 2 GTX760 OCs) or something with this mod itself.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on March 28, 2015, 09:38:27 AM
Rhons, Clarents, a couple other weapons, and all of the ship systems activate the anamorphic flare shader.  It is a pretty GPU intense shader but a 760 should never be bogged down by it.  Frankly your setup is better than mine (I have a single gtx 670 OC) and I get full 60 fps.  Are your drivers up to date?  Try disabling SLI and see if that improves things.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: NightfallGemini on March 28, 2015, 10:12:59 AM
Running on a single GPU didn't fix, thought it might have been the fact I was running SS in a borderless window but fullscreen it did the same thing. The last thing I have yet to do is reinstall Shaderlib, but AFAIK I have the most recent version so I'm not sure if that'll do anything.

What's funny is, it only slows down when things get very, very chaotic or a Templar weapon gets fired, and even then if I check utilizations it's not taxing the cards at all. Very odd.

E: Oh, forgot to add, the drivers are the most recent version (v347.88).
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on March 28, 2015, 12:05:08 PM
Huh.  What's your CPU model?
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Megas on March 28, 2015, 04:56:33 PM
Feedback as promised:

The Templars are well done.  They have a consistent and unusual design, and are generally very powerful and fun to use.  Priwen Burst is a killer.

The bad...
Templar ships eat too many supplies, and I cannot rely on combat alone to keep them fed and running.  At least in Nexerelin, My Templar used Domain ships because they can use Templar weapons to great effect without the crippling supply costs, and I bought supplies from pirates when I could.  I would never use an Archbishop, and I would think twice before using a Paladin.  The Crusader is the biggest Templar ship I am willing to support in my fleet.

The weapons are overpowered, and can turn some stock ships (like Paragon) into godships once acquired.  In the past, I avoided Neutrino because once I mounted two Phased Array Cannons on a Paragon, it became a godship and slaughtered everything with ease.  With Knights Templar, all I need to do is arm a Paragon or Paladin with nothing but Rhons and Sentenias and simply watch things die.  Despite the quality of Knights Templar, I almost do not want to load the mod because it will devolve into a Rhon and Sentenia (and disruptor) spam-fest once I get them.

Comments on weapons themselves:
The standouts are Rhon laser, Sentenia Assault Cannon, Secace and Galatine disruptors, and Clarents.

Rhon laser is stronger that high intensity laser; not a big deal, I think standard beams are weak in general.  However, this weapon is totally sick when combined with IPDAI hullmod.  Two or more Rhons can snuff missiles better than Dual Flak Cannons and kill things without strong shields.  Its costs are not insignificant, and not all ships can use them effectively, but those that can become almost impervious to missiles and fighters.  Without IPDAI, Rhon is still a beam, and I prefer the Merced Cannon for hard flux on shields.

Sentenia Assault Cannon is probably one of the most overpowered weapons I have used in Starsector.  Better range and DPS than a blaster, or any stock energy weapon for that matter, and homing!  It is so good that I put it on nearly anything with medium or heavy energy weapon slots, and such ships because much, much more powerful.  Its only weakness is windup delay.  Its OP cost is high but not out-of-sight, and it outperforms all stock medium and (maybe) heavy energy weapons.  I take Sentenia over any stock heavy energy weapon or even Templar's Longinus beam any day.

Secace Autocannon and Galatine Heavy Disruptor would be no big deal, except they raise flux on a hit, which makes overloading AI somewhat easy.  Galatine is very good; several on a Dominator or Onslaught can and will wreck fleets.

Clarents, while impressive, are too overpriced for what they do.  Reapers still outperform them, and for much less OP.  They are only good when used by Teuton fighters and you have a carrier to rearm Smiter wings.  On Templar ships, I still prefer Reapers or any of the stock regenerating missiles over Clarents.

Heavy Templar weapons are flashy but impractical, and do not outperform their medium counterparts or the best stock weapons enough to make them worth using.  Juger Heavy Cannon is a joke - slow, and not very damaging for its cost.  Joyeuse Fractal Laser is fun and looks intimidating, but does not outperform the Sentenia enough to make it worth using.  Arondight Accelerator is fun, feels like the railgun from the Quake series (minus the hitscan), but it does not seem to outperform alternatives (such as Galatine) enough to make it worth the pain of using it - high OP cost, high flux cost, long windup and recovery delays.  I have no problem mounting one on an Onslaught, but firing it costs half my flux bar.  I can get nearly as much performance from a Galatine and possibly other heavy weapons.  The Clarent MIRV... easy to use, but not worth the OP unlike Hurricane MIRV or Cyclone Reaper.

Summary:
Overall, this is fun to load if I feel like loading a godmod and crushing everything with overpowered weapons.  Templars being super strong does not matter if I can steal their weapons and make more accessible ships unstoppable.

Suggestion:  Templars should have a destroyer-sized light carrier.  Their only carrier being an Archbishop is very painful for a would-be player-controlled Templar fleet.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Cycerin on March 28, 2015, 05:30:03 PM
Rare to see you posting mod feedback, but a welcome surprise. We're going to have to sit down and think about this, you raise a lot of good points.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: NightfallGemini on March 28, 2015, 05:33:47 PM
Huh.  What's your CPU model?

FX-8350. The issue didn't pop up until recently, so I'm wondering if something changed in how my GPU drivers handle that effect.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Nanao-kun on March 28, 2015, 05:41:04 PM
But Reapers don't home. I don't see how you could compare them.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Tartiflette on March 28, 2015, 06:18:02 PM
Interesting experience with Templars.

I'd say the main problem with supplies comes from Nexerelin: in a "normal" game you shouldn't have a fleet composed exclusively of Templar ships but only a few, and I believe they have been balanced for that type of fleet.

I disagree with the Clarents: homing, super fast (can hit before the enemy raise it's shield), hit like a truck and near unstoppable by PD, I on the contrary think they are OP. Of course I mostly experienced them from the other side of the launch tube so my opinion may be biased (and I know DR changed them a bit for the next update).

For the problem of mounting Templar weapons on non Templar ships, I think a neat solution could be to create a "Power Grid Perturbation" effect. In short if you mount more Templar weapons than what the ship's power grid can support, the cost for firing them raise sharply. If we say the maximum is 2 Templar weapons on a destroyer size ship, mounting 3 will cause all of them to produce 150% flux, mount 4 and it's 300% etc. For a Cruiser the max amount could be 3, 4 for a capital, and a single one for a frigate...The problem would be to communicate that information to the player during refit, I might be possible to simply refresh the weapons flux real time for the derived stats corner, but certainly not on the weapon card.
Another solution could be to prevent more than a certain number to fire at once, much in the same way only 2 weapons can fire at once on a destroyer, and you have to way for them to cooldown before another one can fire.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Histidine on March 28, 2015, 07:16:51 PM
Hmm, interesting discussion. My thoughts:

The thing about Clarents is that on the receiving end, we only see the ridiculous missile swarms that nothing short of a high-grade cruiser or capital can hope to survive (Teuton Smiters are the spawn of the devil). It's only when we try mounting them ourselves that we feel the painful OP costs required to mount a decent amount of Clarents, which generally relegates them to use as a highly opportunistic strike weapon - and it's hard to compete with the Reaper in this role. It's particularly annoying because the friendly AI likes to launch them first thing in any engagement (just like the enemy AI, but the enemy NPCs can afford to lose a few random frigates and destroyers way more than the player can).

Broadly agree with Megas on the heavy weapons.

Dunno about the Sentenia. It eats shields and soft targets, but the 110 damage per shot really hurts it against heavy armor. I'd take the Longinus over it for most purposes - it's just as good for most applications, and soft flux against shields matters a lot less when you have 750 DPS.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: orost on March 28, 2015, 07:32:18 PM
If you look at Clarents vs Reapers solely from a damage per OP perspective, they're indeed vastly inferior. But you can't forget that they're extremely dissimilar weapons that cannot be compared this way. A Reaper is fairly short-range and requires careful aim and positioning to connect and can be easily dodged or repelled, while a Clarent has longer range, can be fired from any orientation, never misses, is much faster, can retarget and can recover from repelling such as that by a weak Priwen Burst. It's a very reliable "press button to kill target" weapon and when your loadout requires that it's easily worth the OP.

If all you care about is a big burst of damage, then a Reaper is better, but a Clarent is much more than that.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Megas on March 28, 2015, 07:34:32 PM
Re: Clarents
I am aware how deadly they are in enemy hands.  They cost too much OP to be practical for ships I control, as I build ships to solo fleets if I pilot them, and a few Clarents cannot solo fleets.  (Neither can Reapers, but at least Reapers are cheap to mount.)

@ Cycerin:  I do not play mods much, but I recently tried Blackrock seriously for the first time.  I loaded older versions before in Exerelin, but Blackrock were eliminated too quickly for me to see what they did.  Gedune, IFed, and Nomads were the survivors I had the most exposure with.  I may post feedback about Blackrock in its topic later, if I find some time.

The main reason why I tried Knights Templar is because it seems like a small enough mod to try.  It also helped that Cycerin had a hand with the mod.

P.S. For fire-and-forget, I abuse Sentenias like no tomorrow.  No need for Clarents when I can fire Sentenias non-stop.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on March 28, 2015, 08:00:45 PM
I made a number of balance changes, which you can see on the upcoming patch notes on the OP.  Comments?
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Nanao-kun on March 28, 2015, 08:01:41 PM
Re: Clarents
I am aware how deadly they are in enemy hands.  They cost too much OP to be practical for ships I control, as I build ships to solo fleets if I pilot them, and a few Clarents cannot solo fleets.  (Neither can Reapers, but at least Reapers are cheap to mount.)
But isn't that from the perspective of kite masters and the highly skilled?

I admit though, I've only ever really used the medium and large mounts.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Cycerin on March 28, 2015, 08:08:53 PM
I may post feedback about Blackrock in its topic later, if I find some time.

I'd appreciate that. Currently finishing up a big balance/polish patch.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: orost on March 28, 2015, 08:40:14 PM
The only thing I don't like about the balance changes is the Clarent speed reduction. I very much like how their extreme speed makes them almost unavoidable and thus utterly terrifying and unique. Hearing the Clarent launch sound is a startle like nothing else in the game, because you know you have mere seconds to react, or you will take massive damage. With 450 speed, they become just an another missile, although a powerful one.


Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: HELMUT on March 29, 2015, 01:43:14 AM
Personally i never had trouble with supplies in my Templar campaign. Then again, most of the time i only deployed a single Martyr to take down everything from fighters to destroyers, sometimes isolated cruisers. I brought the Paladin (then later i went full Jesuit pack) to take care of the big ones. By doing this method, my expenditures in supplies were very low.

For the Archbishop, i haven't played that much with it (a carrier fleet was too expensive and not as efficient as the lone Rambo Martyr) but the tactic was the same. As it is the slowest ship in the game, i deployed it alone and kept it near the edge of the map, waiting for the enemy. Full Rhon loadout, with integrated PD AI, it's job was just to welcome all the enemy fighters and frigates. I also maxed the flux capacity to be able to unleash the mother of all priwen burst in their face when things went too hot.

And when the small fry was toasted, i waited for the big ones to engage me to deploy all the Teutons. And then the battle ended, usually. The Archbishop, because of its tankiness, can usually survive this kind of tactic, even though having one escorting crusaders wasn't a bad idea to ensure it really stayed alive.

Still, pretty expensive to run as well but at this point, i was swimming in supplies. You still need a freighter from another faction to survive though.

But yeah, the Rhon hurt super hard and the range problem is nullified by ITU, advanced optics and the Riastrad system. Which is why the Martyr felt so brutal in the hands of the player.

I found the Sentenia good but not as crazy as you. Yes, the range as well as the flux generation is better than the blaster, it only have 6 more DPS though and of course, is 6 ops more expensive. However the Blaster have the advantage of dealing a single instance of high damage (500 to 10x110 spread all over the ship) which tends to be better at cracking open the armor faster. The Sentenia projectiles are homing and are very good against fighters though. Sooo... I guess the nerf is justified?

I agree for the Clarents. Yes, they are terrifying when they're fired at you. However Templars are always outnumbered and won't have enough missiles to take down the entire enemy fleet. They will rapidly slaughter one or two big ships but they'll have to use their other guns for the rest. And yeah, a bunch of reapers are better for your flagship. For the AI however? Nah.

I am a bit terrified of the regenerating Roland though. Vanilla MIRVs are some of the most annoying things to deal with but at least you can somewhat dodge/intercept them. Dodging/destroying 4 Clarents every minutes however? Now that's really mean.

For the big guns. I never liked the Juger either. If you want to get rid of missiles, get IPD AI, if you want to get rid of fighters... Nearly all the Templars weapons can wreck them. If not, Priwen burst can.

I liked the Joyeuse however. Torpedo level damage at long range and plenty of ammo to toy with. One-shooting destroyers with that thing is satisfying, plus the Paladin usually have plenty of OPs to mount it.

Never found the Arondight in campaign and haven't played enough with it in missions to say much about it. And unlike Megas i never used Templar weaponry on other ships, so i don't really know about that either.

Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Tartiflette on March 29, 2015, 04:02:16 AM
I agree for the Clarents. Yes, they are terrifying when they're fired at you. However Templars are always outnumbered and won't have enough missiles to take down the entire enemy fleet. They will rapidly slaughter one or two big ships but they'll have to use their other guns for the rest. And yeah, a bunch of reapers are better for your flagship. For the AI however? Nah.

Clarents aren't that much of a big problem on the ships, it's the fighters that could spam them endlessly that were the big source of frustration with those missiles. True now they can be intercepted like normal missiles, but on the other hand the spamming is still a thing and you can't hope to dodge them now. Instead of a small chance to avoid damage in a super fast frigate, all ships can now defend themselves evenly. I'll have to try them, but from here I think it's a good change.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Megas on March 29, 2015, 07:06:38 AM
Quote
If you look at Clarents vs Reapers solely from a damage per OP perspective, they're indeed vastly inferior. But you can't forget that they're extremely dissimilar weapons that cannot be compared this way. A Reaper is fairly short-range and requires careful aim and positioning to connect and can be easily dodged or repelled, while a Clarent has longer range, can be fired from any orientation, never misses, is much faster, can retarget and can recover from repelling such as that by a weak Priwen Burst. It's a very reliable "press button to kill target" weapon and when your loadout requires that it's easily worth the OP.
I look at Clarents much like Harpoon MRMs.  Very deadly, but too few ammo to make it worth using in all but short fights.  I think Harpoon racks and pods cost too much OP for what they do.  Clarents are simply high performance Harpoons or Atropos that cost as much if not more OP.  If I want to use Clarents, I will grab two or three Smiter wings and a non-Templar carrier.

Quote
Personally i never had trouble with supplies in my Templar campaign. Then again, most of the time i only deployed a single Martyr to take down everything from fighters to destroyers, sometimes isolated cruisers. I brought the Paladin (then later i went full Jesuit pack) to take care of the big ones. By doing this method, my expenditures in supplies were very low.
It was tolerable with smaller ships, up to Crusader.  But, if I wanted all Templar fleet like NPCs, it was impossible.  The only way I could thrive as a Templar was to use stock Domain ships armed with Templar weapons.  Occasionally, I would use a Jesuit, Crusader or a few Smiter wings without too much pain.  However, if I wanted to use a Paladin or especially Archbishop it would consume all of my supplies, and I would not be able to buy enough replacement supplies.  The only markets I can buy supplies in bulk from are Templars and Pirates, but they were not enough for a proper Templar fleet.


Re: Joyeuse
It is fun to use, and player can snipe with it.  But the DPS is not much higher than Sentenia, sort of like Heavy Blaster vs. Plasma Cannon.  What is more, Sentenia tracks the enemy, but Joyeuse does not.  Also, Sentenia has no ammo, but Joyeuse does, and I have ran out of Joyeuse ammo and got stuck with low DPS.  I wrote elsewhere that I prefer Heavy Blaster over Plasma Cannon for most ships because Heavy Blaster performs nearly as well for much less OP.  Same deal with Sentenia vs. Joyeuse.

Re: Sentenia
Quote
However the Blaster have the advantage of dealing a single instance of high damage (500 to 10x110 spread all over the ship) which tends to be better at cracking open the armor faster.
I need to aim with a blaster, and I miss enough that getting full DPS cannot always be relied on.  With Sentenia, I rarely need to aim and I often get the full DPS.  With more range, I can kite from even further back.  Range is one of the most powerful stats in Starsector.

On a Hyperion, if I use blasters, I need IR Pulse Lasers for anti-fighter.  With Sentenias, I do not need any other weapon to kill a wide variety of ships.  Sentenia's only weakness is long windup, which may give the AI enough time to raise shields to block any Sentenia salvos Hyperion may try to fire after teleportation.  If I want to kill a Paragon with Combat 10, I am not sure Sentenias would work, and would probably need to use blasters which do work.  Phase ships are a real pain to kill with Sentenias alone.  On the other hand, if I use blasters, I risked getting instakilled by a Priwen Burst from a Templar ship if I make one mistake.  Sentenia is much safer to use against Templar ships (and many other non-Templar ships) than blasters.

Re: Upcoming changes.
Arondight Accelerator needs to shoot faster and/or lose the ammo, not do more damage and cost more flux (when it already generates lots).  You can give infinite DPS vs. shields and they will overload the same as a shot with less overkill damage.

Change to High Maintenance should help for a faction that relies mostly on measly combat drops (buying supplies is not an option if most markets refuse to trade).  Extremely High Maintenance made big Templar ships too difficult to use without a steady and generous source of supplies.  Why use Paladin, let alone Archbishop, when I can devastate fleets with a Domain ship armed with Templar weapons?

Other comments
Player needs high to max +OP skills and Optimized Assembly perk to make Templar weapons usable on non-Templar ships.

Clarents are at their strongest when used by fighters, who can launch never-ending salvos of them.  Clarents from bigger ships are fearful, but limited, not unlike Harpoon salvos from a Dominator with Combat 10.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Wyvern on March 29, 2015, 09:46:05 AM
Some comments from a slightly different perspective: Personally, I find heavy blasters to be vastly superior to the Sentenia, especially for anti-fighter work; the proposed nerf to the Sentenia will likely make me simply stop using it unless I really need the range and have way more ordnance points than I can otherwise spend.  I think the main reason I'm getting such different results from Megas is that I'm usually looking at putting them into turrets, and the auto fire AI is surprisingly accurate with heavy blasters.

Missiles: The one-shot clarent, if you have missile skills enough to get two shots, is pretty good; I'll happily use those in place of torpedos.  The two shot version, by contrast, is... very rarely worth the ordnance points.  Personally, I'd suggest assigning OP costs to clarent launchers on the assumption that they'll primarily be used on flagships with player skills.  The clarent medium launcher I've used on exactly one ship; a large capital ship where I didn't need the missiles, but they were a convenient way to blow up fleeing frigates that had managed to outrange my main guns.  I've never used the large clarent launcher; regenerating ammo will make it something I'll actually seriously consider.

Unsure on the incoming laser changes.  Maybe split the Rhon into two versions, one that's lower DPS but better tracking (and meant to be used as PD with the PDAI hull mod)?  It is one of the few Templar weapons that I've found to be generally usable, primarily as point defense on phase ships.  (On non-phase ships the flux cost is too high and you have to start doing the dance of "Are there missiles I want killed?  If yes, turn on PD guns, if no, turn them off so I don't overload", which I don't find very fun.)
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on March 29, 2015, 11:04:56 AM
All I did was slightly reduce its DPS and give it the flux efficiency of a heavy blaster.  It trades shot power for range and homing projectiles.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Megas on March 29, 2015, 11:39:39 AM
There are very few warships that I would not mount the Sentenia on if they can use them.  They include Tempest (because they give up too much to support two), and Vigilance if I want to use Pilums, and possibly Hyperion if I need blasters to counter some problem ships (e.g., Paragon or Doom with Combat 10).  Even on Vigilance, I will mount Sentenia and trade Pilums for Salamander.  I think Sentenias are extremely overpowered to the point that nothing else competes, barring absurdly overpowered stuff like Neutrio's Phased Array Cannon, and Sentenias and most other Templar weapons are extremely common if I have access to Templar markets.  I mount Sentenias on almost everything.  On a Paragon, you can bet I will mount ten Sentenias on it.  Well, maybe not, eight Sentenias and two Galatines.  I would mount Sentenia on the central mount of a Paladin if I could, but since I cannot, I mount Mjolnir, Storm Needler, or (rarely) Arondight Accelerator instead.

@ Dark.Revenant:  That was another reason - not only more range, DPS, and ease-of-use than blaster, but also better efficiency.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: sotanaht on March 30, 2015, 07:22:49 PM
double clarents + expanded missile racks + +1 missile.  6 of those on a single frigate (thanks to intersteller imperium), 24 clarents in rapid fire kills most battleships.  Of course the frigate is absolutely useless after that, so retreat, and call in another one.

Honestly I don't expect anything balanced from this mod.  The only reason I'm even playing with templar stuff is because they kept getting wiped out in my nexerelin game before I was strong enough to fight them, so now I'm building them up manually.

edit: the Arondight takes the cake for OP weapons though.  One shot disables destroyers one way or the other, 2 for crusers, and 3 for battleships.  Lucky the templar can't mount more than one at a time, the only way you can stop a ship with 3 of those is to swarm it, and with the range you can forget about doing that in a fleet setting.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: sotanaht on April 02, 2015, 01:37:40 AM
I'm finding Templar ships to be EXTREMELY weak to the Tachyon Lance.

I'm not 100% clear on how the templar shields work with regards to damage types, but barring templar weapons, I've found that JUST Tachyon lances are extremely effective at killing templar ships.  Not just disabling like you would expect, but actually killing them.  

With 3 Tachyon lances on a Ravana (mayorate), I can solo any templar fleet.  They SHOULD surround and kill me, but they never do.  Considering how thoroughly templars wreck my AI fleets, this is pretty much how I've been fighting them.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4b
Post by: Eternity on April 08, 2015, 06:17:41 AM
Hi there,

Just a BIG thank to the author(s) of this MOD !!! Impressive works on behavior, rendering, weapons and so on !!!! Keep up this awesome work !

Now, I have only one focus, improve my skills/fleets/weapons config to match at least Knight templar fleets and with luck retrieve some of their ships ;-)

Looking forward to your new releases ;-)

Once again many thanks !
Title: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4c
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 17, 2015, 05:53:03 PM
Lots of balance updates and AI improvements.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?871eekdsw56ebdk)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.4c (https://www.mediafire.com/?871eekdsw56ebdk)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.4c.zip)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.06 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.7.6 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Nexerelin 0.3.6b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0)) (Updated!)

We also recommend Version Checker 1.4b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.4c
- Priwen Burst AI added (bursts will be a lot smarter!)
- Rhon Laser DPS reduced to 300 from 375; range increased to 600 from 500; turn rate decreased to 30 from 100
- Merced Cannon flux per shot increased to 80 from 75 (flux/second is 375 -> 400)
- Clarent MRM HP reduced to 300 from 500
- Longinus Heavy Laser flux per second increased to 1000 from 900; turn rate decreased to 30 from 50
- Sentenia Assault Cannon damage decreased to 100 from 110; flux per shot increased to 140 from 120 (dps is 506 -> 460, flux/second is 552 -> 644)
- Juger Heavy Cannon damage increased to 2000 from 1850; maximum arc damage increased to 600 from 370; maximum total arc damage increased to 1500 from 740 (effective dps is 811 -> 1041)
- Joyeuse Fractal Laser damage increased to 6x900 from 6x850; flux per attack increased to 7000 from 6000 (effective dps is 850 -> 900, flux/second is 857 -> 1000)
- Arondight Accelerator damage increased to 3000 from 2000; flux per shot increased to 9000 from 7000; ammo recovery increased by 50% (effective shield-hit dps is 435 -> 522, effective armor-hit dps is 1009 -> 1252, effective armor-hit dps (w/o flux) is 487 -> 730, flux/second is 609 -> 783)
- ROLAND HP reduced to 900 from 1200
- ROLAND System now regenerates 1 ammo per minute
- Templar CR stats improved
- Made Templar shields particularly effective against beams
- Extremely High Maintenance changed to High Maintenance
- TwigLib compatibility improved
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4c
Post by: Ranakastrasz on April 17, 2015, 08:03:51 PM
The most obvious issue I ran into trying to maintain a Templar Fleet was not the lack of supplies to purchase, as 5k+ were usually available, but the lack of cargo space. I have to run a fleet of a single ship, dock at an unguarded enemy station, and buy as many cargo-haulers as I can manage. Templar ships require non-templar ships to support their logistics. Well, higher level ones might have enough cargo capacity, but a single Martyr has 25 capacity, which can't let it carry away loot, and if a battle goes badly without being fatal, you easily take 30-50 supplies to fix it.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4c
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 17, 2015, 08:19:06 PM
They're not really intended to be playable; they're more like bonus ships if you capture them.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4c
Post by: Megas on April 18, 2015, 10:19:38 AM
I have not played the latest version enough in Nexerelin to write complete feedback, but I noticed something that may or may not be a bug:

It seems Priwen Burst is usable only once per fight.  After I (or the enemy AI) successfully use the burst, it cannot be used again for the rest of the battle.  The Priwen substitute used by the Martyr and fighters recharge and can be used more than once.

Enemy Templars are much less dangerous when they can only burst once per fight, and they often waste it when at low flux (because they assume it is unlimited as before).

They're not really intended to be playable; they're more like bonus ships if you capture them.
Not in Nexerelin, where I can play as them.  The challenge is getting some of the Domain tech so I can use more efficient substitutes, such as Gemini fleets for Smiter wing domination.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4c
Post by: Nanao-kun on April 18, 2015, 01:43:25 PM
Not in Nexerelin, where I can play as them.  The challenge is getting some of the Domain tech so I can use more efficient substitutes, such as Gemini fleets for Smiter wing domination.
But that's Nexerelin, not Starsector/Starsector+.
Title: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 18, 2015, 02:04:09 PM
It's somewhat surprising to me that this bug, which has existed for the better part of a year, is only noticed now.

Basically, if ShaderLib is disabled, the Templars break in a variety of interesting ways.  Unfortunately, the fix reduces performance.  So have fun with that.


(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?2gcke6883hyfeh4)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.4d (https://www.mediafire.com/?2gcke6883hyfeh4)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.4d.zip)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.06 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0))
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.7.6 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0))
(Supported by Nexerelin 0.3.6b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0))

We also recommend Version Checker 1.4b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.4d (April 18, 2015)
- New Excalibur Drive explosion charge sounds
- Templars no longer break with shaders disabled
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Nanao-kun on April 18, 2015, 02:41:40 PM
I've never played with ShaderLib off so yeah,
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 18, 2015, 03:31:30 PM
I've never played with ShaderLib off so yeah,
I have and have never noticed anything off about the Templars
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Megas on April 18, 2015, 03:32:50 PM
I must play with ShaderLib effects off (mod enabled but all effects disabled) because I have no GPU.

Quote
It's somewhat surprising to me that this bug, which has existed for half the better part of a year, is only noticed now.
What bug would that be?
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Nanao-kun on April 18, 2015, 07:04:56 PM
I must play with ShaderLib effects off (mod enabled but all effects disabled) because I have no GPU.

Quote
It's somewhat surprising to me that this bug, which has existed for half the better part of a year, is only noticed now.
What bug would that be?
It seems Priwen Burst is usable only once per fight.  After I (or the enemy AI) successfully use the burst, it cannot be used again for the rest of the battle.  The Priwen substitute used by the Martyr and fighters recharge and can be used more than once.
This one, considering turning ShaderLib off causes Templars to bug out.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 18, 2015, 09:50:25 PM
I must play with ShaderLib effects off (mod enabled but all effects disabled) because I have no GPU.

Quote
It's somewhat surprising to me that this bug, which has existed for half the better part of a year, is only noticed now.
What bug would that be?
It seems Priwen Burst is usable only once per fight.  After I (or the enemy AI) successfully use the burst, it cannot be used again for the rest of the battle.  The Priwen substitute used by the Martyr and fighters recharge and can be used more than once.
This one, considering turning ShaderLib off causes Templars to bug out.
I play with shaderlib disabled in the config file and never seen this bug
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Megas on April 19, 2015, 06:51:41 AM
Quote
This one, considering turning ShaderLib off causes Templars to bug out.
"bug out" is not helpful.

I experienced no bugs with ShaderLib disabled in v0.9.4b, and none in v0.9.4d.  In v0.9.4c, Priwen limited to once per fight was the only bug I encountered, and I do not know if disabled ShaderLib effects caused it.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Nanao-kun on April 19, 2015, 08:40:12 AM
Quote
This one, considering turning ShaderLib off causes Templars to bug out.
"bug out" is not helpful.

I experienced no bugs with ShaderLib disabled in v0.9.4b, and none in v0.9.4d.  In v0.9.4c, Priwen limited to once per fight was the only bug I encountered, and I do not know if disabled ShaderLib effects caused it.
"- Templars no longer break with shaders disabled"

Is what the changelog says.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Megas on April 19, 2015, 09:35:58 AM
I read that too.  That would imply that Templars would be unplayable (i.e., game would not load).  Templars were playable, albeit with bug(s).  The one Priwen burst per game could have been either a new feature/nerf or a bug.  I guessed it was a bug (before d fixed it) since it used to be unlimited, and the AI behaved like it was.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Megas on April 19, 2015, 10:26:41 AM
Feedback on the update.

Priwen bursts:
AI is only smarter in that it bursts only when it thinks it can be hit.  Firing a short-ranged weapon at it from more than a screen away no longer triggers a burst.  This is an improvement.  It can still be baited into wasting its burst by firing anything from max range, while your attacking ship backpedals, to avoid or mitigate damage from a high-powered burst.


Weapon tweaks:
Rhon Laser exchanged DPS and turn speed for more range.  In my experience, this is more of an upgrade than a downgrade or even sidegrade.  I do not need Advanced Optics anymore to kite with Rhons.  Rhon Laser plus IPDAI is still disgustingly overpowered as PD.  Rhon remains more powerful than High Intensity Laser, and it fires quickly enough that Advanced Turret Gyros is not necessary, despite slower turn speed.

Sentenia Assault Cannon was noticeably weakened, but it is still very powerful.  It remains overpowered when compared to standard weapons, despite less DPS than Heavy Blaster, and is still usually a no-brainer for non-Templar ships to use if they can support it, due to 800 range and homing.  Compared to other Templar weapons, Sentenia was weakened enough that is no longer supreme.

Longinus Heavy Laser kills unarmored ships faster than other medium Templar weapons.  Still a beam, and takes a while to overpower shields.  Its flux costs are high on non-Templar ships.  Even on ships that can use Longinus effectively, I prefer Sentenia or Galatine instead, unless I want a beam-only configuration.

Juger Heavy Cannon feels useful.  The arcing murders missiles and fighters, and does respectable, if not great, damage on a direct hit.  Juger seems to be designed as a multipurpose swiss-army knife than a simple beatstick.  If I want a simple weapon that kills enemies efficiently, there are better alternatives to the Juger.

Joyese Fractal Laser is worth using thanks to more damage combined with weaker Sentenias.  It is damaging enough to overload or kill smaller or weakened ships in one full blast.

Arondight Accelerator is very powerful now, maybe to the point of unfair.  A direct hit will incapacitate most ships, regardless what defense was hit.  Can compete with multiple Galatines.  Tried it on an Onslaught, still brutally effective, though multiple Galatines may be better.  Dominator cannot fire two at a time without at least 40-something capacitors.

ROLAND System was deadly before, but with regeneration (and max Missile Specializaton), it competes with the other Templar heavyweights.  It can alpha strike like no other weapon short of a few other overpowered mod weapons.  Compared to other Templar weapons, it is a choice of whether you want to pile on the damage now or have less but more sustainable damage throughout the fight.  Non-Templar ships with large missile mounts can receive a significant power upgrade by mounting a ROLAND, especially the Astral.

Suggestion:  If ROLAND can regenerate, let the medium Clarent tube regenerate too.


Other
Change to High Maintenence is nice.  I can support more and/or bigger Templar ships comfortably.

Quote
Made Templar shields particularly effective against beams
It seems too effective.  An all-beam Paragon with Rhons and Longinus struggled against a Paladin.  A Paragon with Sentenias and Galatines crushed the Paladin.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Nanao-kun on April 19, 2015, 03:02:44 PM
It seems too effective.  An all-beam Paragon with Rhons and Longinus struggled against a Paladin.  A Paragon with Sentenias and Galatines crushed the Paladin.
Isn't the Paragon more of a supercapital in terms of strength since it outclasses all other vanilla capital ships? The Paladin would count as a capital ship, and the Paragon would be ranked higher. The Archbishop is more of a carrier and doesn't get far without support. Perhaps wait for the teased Templar capital ship?

What do you mean by struggled by the way? Did it lose?
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Megas on April 19, 2015, 04:00:51 PM
The game considers Paragon a capital.  Paladin is a cruiser.

Quote
What do you mean by struggled by the way? Did it lose?
It took longer, maybe about thirty seconds to a minute, despite higher DPS, for the Rhon and Longinus Paragon to kill the Paladin than it did with Sentenias and Galatine, and the Paragon got reduced to less than half hull.  With non-beam Templar weapons, the Paragon crushes the Paladin with only minor damage taken.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Nanao-kun on April 19, 2015, 04:21:37 PM
The game considers Paragon a capital.  Paladin is a cruiser.

Quote
What do you mean by struggled by the way? Did it lose?
It took longer, maybe about thirty seconds to a minute, despite higher DPS, for the Rhon and Longinus Paragon to kill the Paladin than it did with Sentenias and Galatine, and the Paragon got reduced to less than half hull.  With non-beam Templar weapons, the Paragon crushes the Paladin with only minor damage taken.

I said in terms of strength.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Histidine on April 19, 2015, 09:36:29 PM
I don't know if the same values are being used in the final version, but DR said a month or so back that the Templar shields would further reduce beam damage by their normal damage absorption - so at zero flux, a beam will only do 10% of its listed damage, with the underlying hull taking 1% of nominal damage after the shield has absorbed the other 9%.

I didn't bring it up at the time, but this seems a bit excessive.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 19, 2015, 10:14:54 PM
I changed it to a flat 75% reduction since then.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: orost on April 27, 2015, 05:20:15 PM
Bug: Arondight projectiles sometimes pass right through small targets without shields (like Hounds) without doing any damage.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 27, 2015, 06:11:30 PM
The good news: It is not difficult to fix
The bad news: All scripted-collision weapons in every mod will have this problem
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: sotanaht on April 28, 2015, 08:06:57 AM
There are few things more satisfying than guiding a swarm of hostile Clarents into the enemy Archbishop right as their guidance shuts off.  Except maybe doing it to a Martyr that just will not hold still and die.

Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: orost on May 05, 2015, 03:11:34 PM
I don't know if the Jesuit's system is supposed to let it phase through the middle of an Onslaught, but the AI seems convinced that it can do that, while often it cannot. It results in the Jesuit crashing into the battleship and exploding immediately after. While somewhat effective as a suicide bombing tactic, I have a feeling that this isn't how it's supposed to work.

I think this happening might have something to do with toggling shields while the Jesuit is on top of where they appear, but I'm not sure, it's difficult to test.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: tchan on May 08, 2015, 08:48:56 PM
I finally got my hands on my first Jesuit Elucidator, and I just love the Priwen Burst! 

I've been practicing bursting at the optimal time, looking at what flux numbers to do it while not overloading.

After 10 minutes of this, when I right clicked to do another burst, this time it sent me FLYING BACKWARDS over a length equivalent of 2 or 3 Schism drives worth, then it did the Priwen Burst.

I have no clue what happened.  I tried to redo it on purpose, but it seems to be random.  I did a search on the forum for keywords "backward" "opposite" and "retreat" on The Knights Templar section but nothing relevant came up.

I'm sorry if this was mentioned before.  I'll keep trying to reproduce this odd effect.

[edit]  Ok able to reproduce it 50% of the time.  It happens if I'm going forward, but not actively accelerating, and touched an enemy's shield at the same time as I'm clicking to do the Priwen Burst.  It sends me flying very far backwards.  Is this intentional?  I don't remember seeing enemy ships doing this o.o
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 08, 2015, 09:48:52 PM
I suggest alerting Alex about the bug, considering you're the first person to get a reproducible process to trigger it.  It's a problem with fixed-duration phase cloaks.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: tchan on May 08, 2015, 10:10:55 PM
Roger that.

Btw, really enjoying all the great work you've done :)

Your Templars are wrecking the face of everyone in SS+, pretty much doubling or more their weight in enemy casualties :D   It's too bad I can't join them in their crusades to PURGE THE HEATHENS OF THEIR UNCLEAN WAYS.  *ahem*
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 08, 2015, 11:23:46 PM
You actually can.  Just blow up backwards heathens ships in a crusade location.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Noxxys on May 10, 2015, 12:44:03 PM
Your Templars are wrecking the face of everyone in SS+, pretty much doubling or more their weight in enemy casualties :D
Yes, they are too much overpowered for my taste. I can't do much against them, so I'm removing this mod and starting a new game.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Euqocelbbog on May 10, 2015, 01:13:49 PM
Your Templars are wrecking the face of everyone in SS+, pretty much doubling or more their weight in enemy casualties :D
Yes, they are too much overpowered for my taste. I can't do much against them, so I'm removing this mod and starting a new game.
Considering that they're meant to basically be an endgame challenge after you've become tired of kicking in the faces of everyone else, the Templar aren't really overpowered for their role.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Megas on May 10, 2015, 03:22:25 PM
Templars are power creep to my ships, once their weapons fall into my hands, just like Neutrino.  Much as I like the quality of Templars, I do not use them anymore unless I want to play with godships.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: sotanaht on May 10, 2015, 07:46:57 PM
I just never use templar weapons in normal games.  I already know something like 3 aerondights on a ravana will kill everything effortlessly, including templars. 

My problem with templars in Nexerelin is they are too uniform.  Fighting the same templar fleet 100+ times gets pretty boring.  Most other factions have enough hulls to keep at least some interest, as long as you don't overpower them to the point that what they field doesn't even matter.  Templars have exactly one hull per ship class (if you separate corvette and frigate), and the majority of the challenge in fighting them comes from their ship systems and clarants, so the loadout variations don't really do that much to keep them distinct.

On a different note, the templar explosion (right click) is very often used by the AI to dodge projectiles.  I'm sure this is more a side effect of hacking phase cloak to do something completely different from the original intention, but I'm wondering IF it was possible, would you remove this function?  While I'm on the subject, the fact that their bursts shut down systems and cause burnouts completely disregarding shields and sometimes even phase cloaks doesn't seem like something they should be doing.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 10, 2015, 08:38:11 PM
Shields do, in fact, block most of a priwen burst, and phasing also blocks a major chunk of it.  EMP reduction hullmods are a must against them, either way, and any ship that doesn't rely on shields needs auto repair unit.  And yes, they do use it to dodge projectiles when prudent; this is intended behavior.  Arondights are being nerfed quite a bit in the next update, and to be fair the Ravana is sort of OP, so I'm not sure that should be a concern either.

Templars are not designed for Nexerelin; compatibility with Nexerelin is more of a formality on my part than something I seriously pursue.  You'll have to talk to Histidine if you want special treatment for them in Nexerelin.  Outside of Nexerelin, their dynamic actually works as I want it to.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: sotanaht on May 10, 2015, 11:09:39 PM
Shields do, in fact, block most of a priwen burst, and phasing also blocks a major chunk of it.  EMP reduction hullmods are a must against them, either way, and any ship that doesn't rely on shields needs auto repair unit.  And yes, they do use it to dodge projectiles when prudent; this is intended behavior.  Arondights are being nerfed quite a bit in the next update, and to be fair the Ravana is sort of OP, so I'm not sure that should be a concern either.

Templars are not designed for Nexerelin; compatibility with Nexerelin is more of a formality on my part than something I seriously pursue.  You'll have to talk to Histidine if you want special treatment for them in Nexerelin.  Outside of Nexerelin, their dynamic actually works as I want it to.

He's already doing a lot of work to try to make them workable.  That problem is less about Nexerelin and more about fighting them repetitively.  Maybe if you have them designed so you only face one fleet every <long period of time> I guess it wouldn't be much of an issue.

And didn't Arondights just get buffed?  Anyway the Ravana is good with them because it has 3 and can aim them via manuevering jets, but I would expect a Dominator, Onclaught, or Conquest would still be quite effective with them.

I don't think I've tried fitting my large ships with full anti-emp mods.  Will insulated engines and resistant flux conduits actually stop Paladins from causing flameouts through shields after ramming and bursting on the FONT of my AI ships?
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 11, 2015, 12:23:41 AM
A fully-charged point-blank burst from a Paladin?  Probably not.  Most other types of bursts?  Yes.  Also, the wider your shield arc is, the more effective it is against those bursts.

Arondights and Galatines are getting the hard flux mechanic nerfed significantly; they will remain powerful but not insane like they were before.

Maybe if you have them designed so you only face one fleet every <long period of time> I guess it wouldn't be much of an issue.
They are few and far between in vanilla. As for Nexerelin, that's not really my problem because Nexerelin is what controls how often their fleets spawn.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Megas on May 11, 2015, 07:09:58 AM
@ sotanaht:  If Templar weapons are in the game, I will use them.  Not using them when they are available is grand stupidity on my part.

Without Flux Dynamics perks, Dominator does not have the flux stats to use more than one Arondight at a time.  Even if your Dominator has 40 to 50+ capacitors, the OP cost to support two is too high.  Onslaught can only use one Arondight comfortably.  I tried using two, but frequently could not fire them at the same time due to limited flux capacity.  Conquest is the only standard ship that can support multiple Arondights, and it is totally sick against big ships, but a Arondight Conquest gives up enough that it is more vulnerable to fighters than a more balanced Conquest would better defend against.

Multiple Galatines are more effective than one Arondight, and they are easier to use.  Use Arondight only if your ship can support it comfortably.  For a Paladin, Arondight is great.  Onslaught can use one decently.  Conquest is nasty with two; four is possible but not a good idea.  Dominator should not use Arondight, and stick with Galatines or standard heavy weapons instead.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: ahrenjb on May 11, 2015, 11:05:26 AM
I don't know, for me and in my game universe the Templars have played the role they were intended to play very well. By the time my fleet is powerful enough to take on Templars regularly and I start getting my hands on plenty of their weapons I'm basically in the end game. Even if I get a couple early on, they're difficult to utilize without high level skills, rendering the point moot. In the current game, there isn't anything left to do once you have a fleet that's powerful enough to go head on with a full size Templar battle fleet. So, really it's game over. Start a new one.

I imagine eventually as new mechanics are added to the core game this will change and Templars role will have to evolve slightly. Until then I see them as a great colorful addition to my universe and they seem to do exactly what DR intended them to.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Megas on May 11, 2015, 12:32:40 PM
In the current game, there isn't anything left to do once you have a fleet that's powerful enough to go head on with a full size Templar battle fleet. So, really it's game over. Start a new one.
For me, that is when the game really begins, when I reach endgame at about level 50+ and enjoy full power.  Until then, it is a boring grind while my character is incomplete and weak.

All the Templars do for me is make my ships, regardless of faction origin, even more overpowered than normal.  My ships do evil things when I pick up overpowered mod weapons.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: sotanaht on May 12, 2015, 03:20:29 AM
@ sotanaht:  If Templar weapons are in the game, I will use them.  Not using them when they are available is grand stupidity on my part.

Without Flux Dynamics perks, Dominator does not have the flux stats to use more than one Arondight at a time.  Even if your Dominator has 40 to 50+ capacitors, the OP cost to support two is too high.  Onslaught can only use one Arondight comfortably.  I tried using two, but frequently could not fire them at the same time due to limited flux capacity.  Conquest is the only standard ship that can support multiple Arondights, and it is totally sick against big ships, but a Arondight Conquest gives up enough that it is more vulnerable to fighters than a more balanced Conquest would better defend against.

Multiple Galatines are more effective than one Arondight, and they are easier to use.  Use Arondight only if your ship can support it comfortably.  For a Paladin, Arondight is great.  Onslaught can use one decently.  Conquest is nasty with two; four is possible but not a good idea.  Dominator should not use Arondight, and stick with Galatines or standard heavy weapons instead.

Actually, putting Arondights on alternating fire is a superior strategy anyway.  Against frigates and destroyers it avoids overkill, and against larger ships you can keep pressure up by staggering your shots, preventing them from venting in between volleys.

And like you, my game only starts when I've maxed out most of the skills.  Until then I'm grinding food trades.

Out of the three, the Dominator is my favorite ship for Arondights.  The fixed hardpoints are actually much easier to aim (you lose tracking for turrets while the weapon is charging, but I always know where my hardpoints are pointed)  Definitely need skill ranks to make it worthwhile, but it can obliterate destroyers from the edge of scanner range.  Won't kill capitals as well the Ravana will, but it will still severely weaken their shields from a safe distance while whatever other ships you have move in for the kill.

A fully-charged point-blank burst from a Paladin?  Probably not.  Most other types of bursts?  Yes.  Also, the wider your shield arc is, the more effective it is against those bursts.

Arondights and Galatines are getting the hard flux mechanic nerfed significantly; they will remain powerful but not insane like they were before.

Maybe if you have them designed so you only face one fleet every <long period of time> I guess it wouldn't be much of an issue.
They are few and far between in vanilla. As for Nexerelin, that's not really my problem because Nexerelin is what controls how often their fleets spawn.

Is that all you are nerfing on the Arondight?  I didn't even know it had a hard flux on hull/armor hit.  I usually overload by striking the shields, because 3000 (now 4000) kenetic damage in one shot just wrecks the AI.  If their shields are down, the damage is more than sufficient to kill or at least severely wound the target, and the EMP will knock out weapons anyway even without overloading.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Megas on May 12, 2015, 05:59:50 AM
I tried alternating fire, but I prefer linked.  Arondight has such a slow fire rate that I prefer to shoot all of them at or close to at the same time.  That also helps with vent spamming.

For Dominator, I use two Mjolnirs and two Galatines.  Four Galatines instead is usable.

Part of what makes Templars' ballistics so powerful is they raise flux on a hit.  Secace Autocannon is mostly weak, but Galatine will tear stuff up.  Arondight will incapacitate most ships whether you hit shields, armor, or hull.  Their DPS is not that great, Galatine and Arondight is useful primarily for overloading ships.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: sotanaht on May 13, 2015, 12:48:29 AM
I tried alternating fire, but I prefer linked.  Arondight has such a slow fire rate that I prefer to shoot all of them at or close to at the same time.  That also helps with vent spamming.

For Dominator, I use two Mjolnirs and two Galatines.  Four Galatines instead is usable.

Part of what makes Templars' ballistics so powerful is they raise flux on a hit.  Secace Autocannon is mostly weak, but Galatine will tear stuff up.  Arondight will incapacitate most ships whether you hit shields, armor, or hull.  Their DPS is not that great, Galatine and Arondight is useful primarily for overloading ships.

Test the Ravana+Arondight against a capital ship.  NO other weapons.  You fire all 3 once, then the AI vents immediately.  By the time you can fire a second time they are at 0% flux and you've accomplished nothing.  Fire the same 3 shots on 3 second intervals and by the time you come around to the 4th shot they are still hovering at around 80% flux.

Then take that same ravina against a frigate.  Fire all three at once, at least one WILL miss and there's a good chance all 3 do.  If you hit the frigate dies, if you miss you are SOL.  Put it on Alternating, you can fire one at a time, as soon as any one hits his shields are going to be at full overload for max duration.  All it takes is a single hit to kill most frigates with shields down.

With the Dominator, the two guns are spaced so far apart you aren't going to hit anything but a Cruiser with both at once.  Put on alternating and you can aim each one with enough precision to hit frigates.  Use the second aim line to guide the first shot (while rotating the ship), which will always be a fixed distance away.

Maybe on something with turrets instead of hardpoints,,, I've been having trouble aiming those with my technique, so linked fire might work better.  Of course, the Onslaught can't hit the same target with more than 2 at a time (and only if you aim off-center).  Same for the Conquest, though that one is so finicky to aim I wouldn't bother myself.

Don't forget about the range difference either.  The Arondight starts at 2500 and upgrades to over 4k.  The Galatine only has a base range of 900, forcing you to fight  close enough for the enemies to return-fire.  It's like comparing an Anti-materiel rifle to an AK.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: Megas on May 13, 2015, 07:49:44 AM
Which mod has the Ravana?

No standard ship can focus fire more than two Arondights at a time, and the Paladin can mount only one.  Other mod ships may focus-fire more than two, but I do not play with those (enough).  One shot is not enough to overload bigger ships, but two shots usually do.  AI can only vent safely if it does not overload and no other weapon fire comes their way.  I would not use Arondight only - that leaves attacker too vulnerable, not to mention giving target time to lower shield and/or vent, while other enemies swarm you unopposed.

I use Arondights on turrets because Onslaught/Conquest/Paladin use turrets.  It is a little awkward to use Arondight at first, but it is something player needs to take into account if he wants to use that weapon effectively.  It is not any harder than other minor UI hurdles such as effective omni-shield use or strafing.

Extra range on Arondight is good, but it will take longer to fight if relied on solely.  If you want to kill quickly, it is a good idea if your assault weapons have similar ranges.  This is a reason why I use Mjolnir (or Hellbore or HAG) instead of Gauss Cannon on Dominator.  On a Paladin, I rely on Sentenia and Rhon spam to kill, while the Arondight is my immobilizer.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4d
Post by: MesoTroniK on May 13, 2015, 03:48:36 PM
Which mod has the Ravana?

The Mayorate
Title: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4e
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 17, 2015, 06:29:44 PM
We have some now content: sounds!  Also, some balance changes.  Saves should remain compatible.


(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?hdo8fqxqcydw21r)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.4e (https://www.mediafire.com/?hdo8fqxqcydw21r)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.4e.zip)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.06 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0))
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.8.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Nexerelin 0.3.8b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0)) (Updated!)

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.4e
- Templar interaction music added
- New Excalibur Drive explosion sound
- Solved AI issue
- Rhon Laser range decreased to 500 from 600
- Arondight Accelerator hit detection improved
- Arondight Accelerator flux damage decreased
- Clarent MRM Tube range increased to 3000 from 2000
- Aegis Shield is reverted to old behavior (not toggled, 3 second duration)
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4e
Post by: Eternity on May 18, 2015, 12:46:05 PM
Cool !!! Many thanks !!!
Title: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 21, 2015, 09:23:41 PM
Oops.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?h8waqdbkehv8egs)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.4f (https://www.mediafire.com/?h8waqdbkehv8egs)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.4f.zip)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.06 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0))
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.8.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0))
(Supported by Nexerelin 0.3.8b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0))

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.4f
- Fixed Priwen Burst
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Mealstrom on May 28, 2015, 04:39:08 PM
Why did you have to make them so religious themed? I mean, with such high-tech ships, I think they would pretty much be all atheists... anyway, I am going to kill them all for their moronic beliefs >:D     

I also have a tendency of importing massive amounts of illegal goods to luddic church just to *** with them lol

anyway, would be cool if you could make a less religious version since to me, its kind-of nonsensical since normaly, only rational and logical driven beings could be so advanced technologicaly since they would try to understand the science behind the weapons and not just paint ships with glowing religious logos if you know what I mean... Other than that, I really like the challenge these ships give except the stupid dash attack which would litteraly turn its crew into jelly... unless they are kerbals, that might actualy explain that part :P
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 28, 2015, 07:09:08 PM
lol
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Megas on May 29, 2015, 04:46:47 AM
Being technologically advanced and faithful to God (or the devil masquerading as a false, pagan god) are not mutually exclusive.

In case of Templars, I think they are heathens mocking the true faith, no better than the Church of Ludd.  Either way, both factions are only good for being used then dying.  Food runs and powerleveling from Ludd, and overpowered weapons from Templars.

Templars (and Luddites) using religious-themed names is fine with me.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Creepin on May 29, 2015, 06:22:53 AM
I mean, with such high-tech ships, I think they would pretty much be all atheists...
In real life, I would totally agree with you, but in computer game, I'll just let this tech-priest to look at you reproachfully.
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/3/34/Techpriest2.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width/250?cb=20111026163206)
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Euqocelbbog on May 29, 2015, 12:10:03 PM
Why did you have to make them so religious themed? I mean, with such high-tech ships, I think they would pretty much be all atheists... anyway, I am going to kill them all for their moronic beliefs >:D     

I also have a tendency of importing massive amounts of illegal goods to luddic church just to *** with them lol

anyway, would be cool if you could make a less religious version since to me, its kind-of nonsensical since normaly, only rational and logical driven beings could be so advanced technologicaly since they would try to understand the science behind the weapons and not just paint ships with glowing religious logos if you know what I mean... Other than that, I really like the challenge these ships give except the stupid dash attack which would litteraly turn its crew into jelly... unless they are kerbals, that might actualy explain that part :P

I can smell the neckbeard through my monitor.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Megas on May 29, 2015, 12:23:29 PM
In any computer game, all game elements are simply digital tokens to be used and exploited.  Templars could be teddy bears, unicorns, or whatever.  If I load Templars or Neutrino, it is because I want to turn my Paragon or other overpowered ships into even more overpowered godships with their overpowered weapons.  As for the factions themselves, they are a source of ships, loot, levels, and amusement when they explode.  Story and other fluff elements are completely irrelevant.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Nanao-kun on May 29, 2015, 12:26:15 PM
In any computer game, all game elements are simply digital tokens to be used and exploited.  Templars could be teddy bears, unicorns, or whatever.  If I load Templars or Neutrino, it is because I want to turn my Paragon or other overpowered ships into even more overpowered godships with their overpowered weapons.  As for the factions themselves, they are a source of ships, loot, levels, and amusement when they explode.  Story and other fluff elements are completely irrelevant.
Wait what. That's from your perspective only right? You're not claiming that's how they are in general right? Because that would be a seriously rude statement if it's the latter.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Megas on May 29, 2015, 12:38:13 PM
It is what I think.  Ye may agree with me or not.  Some may disagree to the point of feeling offense with that, but that is not my problem.

I agree with those that say "winning is not everything" because winning is the only thing that matters when winning (or living as long as possible) is your primary goal.

That said, while I should not let story influence my decision making and min-maxing, I fail at that sometimes, and let some immersion and role-playing in the game.  I wrote that I think Templars are blaspheming heathens, yet none of that should matter in my quest for power.  Yet, it did for a moment.

Also, when I play, I obey rules because if I do not, I can cheat, turn my character into a god, make rocks-fall-and-everyone-but-me dies, and say "I WIN!"
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Nanao-kun on May 29, 2015, 03:15:53 PM
It is what I think.  Ye may agree with me or not.  Some may disagree to the point of feeling offense with that, but that is not my problem.
No no, I was asking if that was entirely from your perspective/opinion, or if you were saying it as an objective fact.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Sabaton on May 31, 2015, 03:13:38 AM
There seems to be a delicious philosophical debate going on here....

Yet no one observed a tiny detail: the ships seem to be made from alien tech. Perhaps the templars didn't build them at all but received them from who knows what. And even revenant said at one point that temp ships are so efficient they don't need supplies. (proof is a few pages back)

So it seems like the ships take care of themselves and don't require much brain to maintain.
Which is fine because the templars are much like the Monolith faction from Stalker: fearless, ferocious, brainwashed fighters(not scientists).

What if they contacted an alien race, got indoctrinated, armed with some obsolete tech the aliens had lying around and got sent against humanity? Perhaps this race was responsible for the collapse as well? And is now trying to finish the job, divide and conquer as they say.

This seems similar to the mass effect reapers: they enslaved the Geth who thought of them as gods (a religious motif) and them sent them against the others.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Nanao-kun on May 31, 2015, 08:40:37 AM
There seems to be a delicious philosophical debate going on here....

Yet no one observed a tiny detail: the ships seem to be made from alien tech. Perhaps the templars didn't build them at all but received them from who knows what. And even revenant said at one point that temp ships are so efficient they don't need supplies. (proof is a few pages back)

So it seems like the ships take care of themselves and don't require much brain to maintain.
Which is fine because the templars are much like the Monolith faction from Stalker: fearless, ferocious, brainwashed fighters(not scientists).

What if they contacted an alien race, got indoctrinated, armed with some obsolete tech the aliens had lying around and got sent against humanity? Perhaps this race was responsible for the collapse as well? And is now trying to finish the job, divide and conquer as they say.

This seems similar to the mass effect reapers: they enslaved the Geth who thought of them as gods (a religious motif) and them sent them against the others.
Could be cool.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: FooF on May 31, 2015, 04:58:01 PM
Well, the Templar lore points to pretty massive hole in the vanilla game: aliens don't seem to exist. Domain-era tech was basically considered godlike but here we have alien tech that puts the Domain to shame.

I really don't care where the tech comes from as much am grateful that such a faction exists in the game. They're the cosmic bogeyman that everyone is afraid of and no one can bargain with. That they're religious zealots sell it even more for me because their motivations can't be bought/sold or reasoned with. They're like the Borg in some sense: relentless, single-minded, and technologically superior to even the most ambitious human endeavors.

That said, with some character levels and skill points, they eventually become beatable and oh how sweet those victories are.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on May 31, 2015, 05:15:51 PM
Well, the Templar lore points to pretty massive hole in the vanilla game: aliens don't seem to exist. Domain-era tech was basically considered godlike but here we have alien tech that puts the Domain to shame.
The Onslaught's codex entry states, IIRC, that it was originally designed to fight aliens
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Surge on June 08, 2015, 12:13:04 AM
These guys have been the bane of my existence, for quite a while I'd hang out in crusaded systems and lurk around until I saw a fleet without any cruisers or really low CR, then I'd swoop in with enough firepower to kill most pirate lord fleets, and I'd continue in this fashion until a paladin took note and singlehandedly wiped my fleet.

Right now I'm running a karkinos and odyssey with some mayorate cruisers armed with heavy polarizers, as well as whatever other cruisers I'm allowed to purchase, I have 10/10/10 with level 7 in most skills, and still that lone paladin, with hardly any support, is able to absolutely butcher my fleet with only a single priwen burst.

I think I'm gonna start trying to refit my ships for long range kinetic damage (except the odyssey, as I have a feeling it's current chirped pulse lasers are counter productive against the templars) and then mod them for EMP resistance, but right now I think it takes me 2-3 tries to get through most templar fleets without unacceptable losses.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Lycutena on June 08, 2015, 04:21:58 AM
Surge, you're right on using long range (kinetic) weapons to fight Templars.  I find Templar ships vulnerable to gauss cannon, especially if you can go backward fairly well.

I also have used three Zeus large ballistic weapons on a solo Mobile AutoFactory to work against them.  It's tricky because my AutoFactory is near overload after firing all Zeus weapons, but it's possible to kill Templar cruiser with this setup moving backward in advance.  This is with character skills of course.

The more you can keep your ships away from Priwen burst, the longer they survive.  The AI have a bad habit of drawing vulnerable ships too close to Priwen burst.  I seen AI ships not using shield to block Priwen burst where they're in no danger to do so.  This makes long range weapons optimal and punish using close range weapons.

Even larger ships will slowly get damage by Priwen burst with the way AI handle things.

I remember using Shadowyard fighter & bomber swarm and one Shadowyard capital to kit them to death.  Mobility and again, range is the way to fight Templars.  Although, I did got an AutoFactory to work against them solo so I guess having enough long range firepower is adequate.  I also had fun soloing them with an Onslaught, but this is very tricky to do.  I had experimented using different weapons against Templar, but I found gauss cannons the best to use against them, especially with the player's flagship in standoff distance.

That said, with some character levels and skill points, they eventually become beatable and oh how sweet those victories are.

I had capture a Templar cruiser.  It's a lot of fun trying to keep it alive.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Surge on June 08, 2015, 07:46:49 AM
The more I think about it actually the more I realize the karkinos would just simply benefit from a long range setup in general, it's the only blackrock ship I've seen that feels slow and clumsy, so closing in on targets that don't want to be closed on is difficult at best, and it's teleport's sheer range would certainly be better for a long range kit than a regular phase skimmer.

hypervelos, gauss, and sledge guns should provide me with more than enough distance to pull it off, ferros too since it IS a blackrock ship.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Axolotl on July 01, 2015, 06:26:15 AM
Hello guys!

I have a game crash (null reference error) when I fire an Arondight at a Templar ship. Any ideas on how to solve the issue?
Thank you for your help!
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 01, 2015, 07:54:14 AM
Hello guys!

I have a game crash (null reference error) when I fire an Arondight at a Templar ship. Any ideas on how to solve the issue?
Thank you for your help!

Can you post the end of your starsector.log?
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Axolotl on July 01, 2015, 09:20:31 AM
This is the end of the log:
Spoiler
106655 [Thread-5] INFO  com.fs.graphics.TextureLoader  - Cleaned buffer for texture graphics/backgrounds/background2.jpg (using cast)
149959 [Thread-5] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.D  - java.lang.NullPointerException
java.lang.NullPointerException
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatViewport.isNearViewport(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.addHitParticle(Unknown Source)
   at data.scripts.plugins.TEM_WeaponScriptPlugin.advance(TEM_WeaponScriptPlugin.java:344)
   at com.fs.starfarer.title.ooOO.K$Oo.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.super.new.super(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.G.???0(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.oOOO.oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.?00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.D.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$2.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
[close]
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 01, 2015, 12:39:49 PM
Ah, yeah, that is being fixed in the next release.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Axolotl on July 02, 2015, 12:57:10 AM
Thank you for your help. Any ETA on the patch?
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4f
Post by: Eternity on July 02, 2015, 02:21:48 PM
Same issue ;-)
Title: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 05, 2015, 12:15:00 PM
Just a small bugfix, and some cleaned up code.  Also, Corvus Mode.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?rr0eyq5ndcq2ahj)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.4g (https://www.mediafire.com/?rr0eyq5ndcq2ahj)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.4g.zip)
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.07 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated)
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.8.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0))
(Supported by Nexerelin 0.4.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0)) (Updated)

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.4g
- Resolved rare null pointer crash
- Corvus Mode supported
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Axolotl on July 06, 2015, 11:21:46 AM
Thank you for the update :)
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Eternity on July 06, 2015, 01:30:06 PM
Hi Dark.revenant,

Many thanks, Arondight should no longer crash when it fires ;-)

Once again, Starsector + shaderlib + starsector+ + Knights Templar = stat of the art for such a game !!!

See you for another updates ;-)

Eternity out
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: shingekinolinus on August 05, 2015, 01:52:15 AM
How do you guys fight templars? I tried to jump on them with my own three paladins (they have three as well), the battle proceeded as an endless exchange of Priwin Bursts at melee range with weapons of either side completely disabled, eventually they all holy charge and clump up in one big cluster, and at the end of the day all of the paladins died.  :'(

The worst is when I encounter an archbishop and hoping to overwhelm it with just paladins, but every time I get swarmed by Teuton wings with their clarents. I wish I could get a few of those on my own side but I can't find anywhere to buy them (except maybe the templar base Antioch but they are vengeful towards me).  :-\

On a side note, I find combat 10 paragons to be far more dangerous than paladins, their fortress shield literally tanks everything.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Axolotl on August 05, 2015, 07:24:17 AM
My favorite technique is get in an Onslaught with 3 mjolnirs, 2 hypervelos at the back and 4 reaper launchers rest is point defense against the clarents.
I usually pick augmented engines and maneuvering jets.
After each priven bursts, their shields are down, which means they are dead to 3-4 torpedos.
I can take on a lot of crusaders, and 2-3 paladins in the same battle with this ship alone. (if you make a mistake you are dead tho.)
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: shingekinolinus on August 06, 2015, 11:41:21 PM
wow that sounds really cool 10/10 will try if I get the chance
It kind of reminds me how I destroyed the first paladin
I followed it closely with my afflictor and after it used priwin burst I launched four reapers at once and killed it

I think the main problem is that I am sitting at combat 5 while all the templar fleets are maxed 10/10/10
was going for leadership and technology first a good idea? I mean I can capture enemy ships relatively easy but it is a real pain to get to that combat 10

EDIT: another question, where can I find a ROLAND system?
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Axolotl on August 07, 2015, 02:04:26 AM
10 Combat is not a necessity for this to work, but it is really nice quality of life improvement. ROLAND is a large missile weapon, some paladins have it.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: shingekinolinus on August 18, 2015, 10:49:31 PM
I thought my fleet was unbeatable after managing to put together 5 paladins at the cost of sub-par logistics, but after seeing this...what the serious f***

WARNING: LARGE IMAGE AHEAD
Spoiler
(http://s21.postimg.org/3m9ae1ajq/Screen_Shot_2015_08_19_at_3_39_00_pm.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/kzjksw5ur/)
[close]

Apparently this "Patriarch Irwin" has a fleet of SIX paladins, EIGHT crusaders, as well as an archbishop and numerous martyrs.
How do I even...I mean, even if I were to assemble a fleet that big, I would have a logistics of around 20 - 30%
Is this the ULTIMATE end game challenge? If so, is there a way to beat this? Or do I have to wait a long time for it to get whittled down by the sacrifice of many other fleets (such as the galactic purification fleet).
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HELMUT on August 19, 2015, 04:31:02 AM
Eh.

Honesty i don't see how to beat this in a "legit and honorable" way. Personally i would deploy ships one by one and transfer command to them as flagship, hoping to take down as many Templars until death, then deploying the second flagship. Pretty sure a few Gauss Karkinos would works well in this case. The teleporter would be good at kiting.

Otherwise, a few gazillion pilums launcher will do the trick. Shoot, retreat, repeat. Maybe add an Afflictor to bait the clarents if there's any.

But with Templars ships? Yeah, nah, don't approach that.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: shingekinolinus on August 20, 2015, 02:32:55 AM
Gauss Karkinos hmm...that might actually work.
* meanwhile, kills pirates furiously to recover relation with blackrock *

The problem is, while I think that the gauss cannon + kiting/teleport combination can be extremely powerful against templars, I don't see how one can actually finish them off once they're weakened, like usually when their flux goes high they just hide behind other ships and vent.

I don't know if mass pilum will work, because I've seen in templar vs imperium, despite the imperium using a lot of heavy ballista, which is a large missile weapon each equivalent to three or four pilums, missiles flooding the screen, but the lattice shield matrix just takes it like it's nothing.

I could use an afflictor to harass the enemy, and possibly launch a reaper or two at a high flux ship, but the priwin burst is really annoying when it causes flameout despite the fact I am in p-space. (is this a bug or a feature?)

Come to think of it, I think one can beat this (relatively easily) through the use of ROLANDs, like a LOT of them. I remember this large missile weapon to be extremely powerful, in one of the battles, I had three paladins against one enemy paladin with a ROLAND, and this weapon turned the tides. I could put two on each of the conquests, that's a maximum of 8 * 4 * 1000 burst energy damage, with a 75% hit rate. Then I could charge in with a single paladin/paragon and hold them back and tank the hits, while energy missiles tear them apart. The problem is however ROLANDs are so rare I've only encountered them in battle once or twice, and none of them have been actually salvaged.

On a side note, is there any way I could actually develop a positive relation with templars? Not that I approve their crusade in any way, but I just really want to get their weapons (fractal laser / ROLAND) and fighters (teuton wing).

Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HELMUT on August 20, 2015, 04:12:01 AM
Ballistas aren't as good as Pilums in some case. Pilums tends to clump and stack over each other, which works very well against Templars as once their armor have been breached, most of your missiles will directly reach the exposed hull. Ballistas tends to spread too much for this. On the other hand, Ballistas aren't as vulnerable to flak weapons but Templars don't use those anyway.

ROLAND spam can work too but the ships able to mount them are too expensive to be fielded in sufficient number. You can have like... What? 4 or 5 Conquests with stretched logistic? Not sure it would works against this fleet.

Another dirty idea, a pair of Astral with a pair of ROLAND on each one and the rest filled with Teutons smiter for maximum missile spam. Of course, you'll need to help the Templars in their crusade to grind the reputation to get their toys.

If you play Nexerelin, perhaps the Prism freeport have them though.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Histidine on August 20, 2015, 04:39:52 AM
Prism Freeport (both Nex and Scy versions) doesn't sell Templar items.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on August 20, 2015, 06:17:44 PM
Prism Freeport (both Nex and Scy versions) doesn't sell Templar items.
Because that would be too easy...
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Requal on September 20, 2015, 12:23:23 PM
Am I the only one who finds this mod a little strange.
Templars in space on a divine mission? lol
Doesn't space mean there is no heaven.

Good job nontheless but this mod is just pure fantasy rather than scifi which kills the immersion.
For me at least.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Tartiflette on September 20, 2015, 12:45:25 PM
Am I the only one who finds this mod a little strange.
Templars in space on a divine mission? lol
Doesn't space mean there is no heaven.

Good job nontheless but this mod is just pure fantasy rather than scifi which kills the immersion.
For me at least.
If what you said was true there shouldn't be any religion left since 1961... Besides, who said they are Christians and not another religion sharing a similar iconography (there are plenty of those already)? And even if they are, what that religion will be like in one thousand years? And what about the Luddic church then?
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Euqocelbbog on September 20, 2015, 01:48:34 PM
Am I the only one who finds this mod a little strange.
Templars in space on a divine mission? lol
Doesn't space mean there is no heaven.

Good job nontheless but this mod is just pure fantasy rather than scifi which kills the immersion.
For me at least.

An impressively bad post. :o
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 20, 2015, 01:52:08 PM
The Templars' religion is painted in an extremely negative light.  Plus, they're not exactly what I'd call 'rational'.  Not sure what your concern is.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: MShadowy on September 20, 2015, 01:54:24 PM
If what you said was true there shouldn't be any religion left since 1961... Besides, who said they are Christians and not another religion sharing a similar iconography (there are plenty of those already)? And even if they are, what that religion will be like in one thousand years? And what about the Luddic church then?

My initial impression was that he was for some reason of the mind that religion and science cannot co-exist, but on second glance I get the impression that he's being absurdly literal.  He seems to have completely misconstrued the intent of the mod, which does not in any way imply that the Templars, in their fanaticism, are correct.  If I recall correctly this is the second time this has come up, with the first being some nob suggesting that, because the Templars are religious zealots they could not possibly have the technology they do, when realistically the reason they should not have said technology is because it's beyond the reach of human science in the Starsector setting.

Essentially, being so tone deaf that they completely miss the subtext.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Tartiflette on September 20, 2015, 02:12:52 PM
That or I may have inadvertently fed a troll...
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Lycutena on September 21, 2015, 12:34:55 AM
My initial impression was that he was for some reason of the mind that religion and science cannot co-exist...
I thought so too for real religion, I discovered it just a cover up for real sciences, at least in my opinion.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Cycerin on September 21, 2015, 02:17:12 AM
As long as the human brain has the capacity for religious experience, religions can exist. As long as we are creatures whose view of the world can be described by Plato's Cave Allegory, there will be a time and a place for philosophy and religion to explain the universe.

Actually this may be a good time to post the short story which we used as inspiration for the Templars. (http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts/PeterWatts_Heathens.pdf)

If you don't want to read it, the theme is something like "religious experience can be induced, and how!"
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Tartiflette on September 22, 2015, 03:06:56 AM
The least believeable thing in this story is: How come it's not a real thing already?
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Thaago on September 22, 2015, 08:15:32 AM
Responding to the slightly old topic of how to fight Templars...

I've found Paragons with Tachyon Lances extremely effective as Templar shields let some damage through - you can harass them at long range or, if their shields are down, knock them out long enough to catch a breather and vent.

Then again, saying "Paragons" as an answer on how to beat something is kind of cheap - they are the super capital of vanilla...
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 22, 2015, 08:24:49 AM
Kiting tactics won't work forever....

MwaahahahahahhaH AHAH HA Hah A AH HAH *COUGH, HACK*
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Megas on September 22, 2015, 05:59:20 PM
As long as the human brain has the capacity for religious experience, religions can exist. As long as we are creatures whose view of the world can be described by Plato's Cave Allegory, there will be a time and a place for philosophy and religion to explain the universe.

Actually this may be a good time to post the short story which we used as inspiration for the Templars. (http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts/PeterWatts_Heathens.pdf)

If you don't want to read it, the theme is something like "religious experience can be induced, and how!"
The afterword appears to be inspired by Karl Marx.  "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

It makes the mistake assuming people made all religion.  God made people, but sinful people who reject God make their own religion of whatever.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Sabaton on September 24, 2015, 12:05:50 PM
That lecture describes what happens when you mix the god helmet experiment with the Imperium of makind from 40k but in a mundane universe.

Nice inspiration.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on November 01, 2015, 04:54:44 PM
So I know I have had the most recent post but I'm going to give this a bump because I have a few questions, and I'd like to leave a little review here while we all wait for .7

Firstly, how strong are the Templars supposed to be exactly? I understand "vanilla balanced" sort of takes a turn for the impossible when you have serious mod interaction going: its impossible to foresee what kind of minmaxing players are going to come up with, and the Templars need to handle this. So are they supposed to match a 10/10/10 player, match a whole fleet, match ships one size bigger than them?

I think Martyrs do a great job performing a more typical frigate support roll than Jesuits, which is fine. I'm not sure how well Martyrs are supposed to be able to actually "stand up" to ships bigger than them, but I assume in most cases they are fast enough that they shouldn't have to. Jesuits are odd, I don't really know what to say about them. The front weapon being hidden is a nice touch, which prevents it from being disabled correct? They don't seem to fulfill a typical fleet roll, and are still significantly stronger than most things their size. It sort of goes without saying, but Templar ships are strong enough that they don't really need to fulfill a fleet roll.

Moving on, in my experience the disparity between a Paladin and any other Templar is massive (In most cases, I'd rather deal with an Archbishop.) I personally like to think of Crusaders as a baseline for what I PERSONALLY would consider to be balanced. I think its system is right where it should be right now, as it makes realistically impossible to simply execute the ship with something like a large alpha strike or reaper. They are the least mobile Templar ship behind Archbishops, but they have staying power totally uncharacteristic of a destroyer.

Now onto the Paladin, and my issue with Templar ships over all. The Paladin is iconic. Its fast, heavily armed and armored, and fully capable of removing entire fleets on its own. If I to pick one thing to complain about, It'd be that the Paladin feels so much stronger than any other Templar ship. I'm not really sure if this is actually a problem or not game play wise, as they truly are force to be reckoned with one way or another.
I think the biggest issue lies in the way Templar ships scale exponentially. The lattice shield system belies its own power on smaller vessels, in the same way hard flux venting and the priwen burst is wasted on a ship that doesn't have that awe inspiring staying power that makes Paladins so intimidating. A 10/10/10 Crusader is noticibly better than a 0/0/0 one, but a 10/10/10 Paladin is a whole different ship. Skills not withstanding, Paladins simply make use of Templar systems far and away better than any other Templar ship.

To get to the point, I think if Paladins are supposed to be the basis for balance, smaller Templar ships need a buff, but if something like a Crusader is the basis, then Paladins should be nerfed a little.

On to the weapons. Heavy weapons seem to be a point of contest from what I've read so I'll start with them.
Most don't seem to like the Juger, but I love it. The arcing effect is immensely powerful and intimidating. It doesn't have the same "deadly" feeling as the Fractal Laser or the Arondight Accelerator, but the damage output is staggering none the less, and its particularly effective against the lightly armored high tech ships with powerful shields that tend to usually put a damper on Templar shenanigans, as it can reach around their shields and peel off their meager armor should they maneuver wrongly.

The Fractal Laser is good. Don't know what else to say. Personally I think its the most uniform and easy to use large Templar gun, which leads me to say I think It should perhaps do a pinch less damage and not have ammo restrictions.

The Arondight Accelerator is another odd weapon that seems to accrue mixed feelings. I think its pretty much fine the way it is. Its troublesome to use, but landing a hit is extremely satisfying regardless if it hits shields or armor. This is another one of my favorite weapons.

Smaller stuff Ill do all at once. Pax Cannons are wonderful. Expensive to fit, incredibly effective, zero complaints. Merced Cannons seem to be directly overshadowed by Pax Cannons, but it may be more of a taste thing. The most striking thing to me is the 200 range different between the two. Secace and Galatine Autocannons both seem perfectly acceptable to me. I think the two are one of the things make Templar ships uniquely intimidating, as forcibly raising flux is such a rare effect. Similarly, both flavors of beam are uniquely powerful in the SS universe, but not so much as to be overbearing.

As I already complained about, I think the Sentenia Cannon nerf was unwarranted, or at the very least too much. In its current form, I'd rather simply use a heavy blaster for the DPS or something else for flux ratio. I think its best quality is the range, which is what lends its value to Templar ships, which can only handle the weapon because of the halved weapon flux costs. While something like a Paragon can make use of them well, it takes a massive ship to handle the flux ratio. Anything smaller doesn't need the range and tracking and can get much better use out of something with less OP cost and a better flux ratio. I haven't felt the desire to use one since the nerf, as they are too hard to mount on anything small. All Templar weapons are unique in some way: the most "normal" of the large weapons is fractal laser, which is still hugely powerful and atypical. The beams are the most powerful in the sector, as are all the small mounts. The autocannons all raise flux, an extremely rare quality, and Clarents are exceptionally fast and accurate. The Sentenia Cannon's only two gimmicks are tracking and the ability to fire through allies, both of which are of somewhat dubious use comparatively, especially considering the cost.

Last but not least, Clarents. Ahh yes Clarents. Like most kinds of missiles, the AI does indeed like to dump them upfront for no reason, as so many others have said. But it works better for Clarents than anything else. The amazing tracking and energy damage means in enough volume they could probably take out faster and more lightly defended Frigates, even when used in such an odd manor. It seems like most people are afraid of the regenerating Clarents but personally I think its a good idea. One reason Clarents on both players and Templars tend to falter is the weak use of them on the AI's part, but having a limitless supply of them would sort of mitigate this, making it more of a support than a strike weapon.

In any case, theres my two cents. Also
Spoiler
In regards to the argument about the Templars religion, I love the theme. I think its perfectly in tune with SS and tastefully done.
[close]
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Schwartz on November 01, 2015, 07:18:38 PM
I've made a specialized Templar hunting fleet to see how SS+ stands up to them. The goal here is to be able to take them on with minimal losses, so I'm using an Asura, a few Scorpions, two Auroras and two Tartarus all geared with heavy Kinetic weapons (HVD, medium Shard cannons) and some Energy weapons. Lightning Gun works well but is costly and more of a stall instead of a quick finish. Lances, Pulse Lasers and Heavy Blasters all work fine. Lots of Flare Guns and PD Lasers with +range instead of more esoteric solutions. Auroras use MIRVs and Scalaron Pulses. Those loadouts seem to work the best.

My findings so far coincide with yours:

- Templar Frigates are somewhat dangerous but squishy and easily taken out. I don't consider them a threat.
- Crusader is the baseline. It's powerful and fun to fight against, it can take out an unwary Scorpion but usually is taken out without much damage to the cruisers, as long as they don't f**k up.
- Paladin still feels too overpowered and will hurt even a well-prepared fleet like this. I got lucky once or twice but avoid them for the most part, depending on enemy fleet composition.
- Fighters are a bit of a bother because they divert attention, but Clarents are really not an issue for a fleet with this loadout. I do avoid Teuton-heavy fleets (especially if there's flight decks available) because of the sheer number of Clarents they can deliver at once. A phase flagship can sprint ahead and coax the enemy to fire Clarents, after which it can take out one or several of them with well-timed PD coupled with phasing. The remaining Clarents will switch targets and usually hit shields or fizz out before reaching my fleet.

One point of curiosity: Shard weapons have a % chance to deal a certain amount of extra damage to armour and hull. I've got the feeling that owed to this separate calculation, the bonus damage slips right through an active Templar shield. Am I right here?
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on November 01, 2015, 07:54:51 PM
- Templar Frigates are somewhat dangerous but squishy and easily taken out. I don't consider them a threat.
- Crusader is the baseline. It's powerful and fun to fight against, it can take out an unwary Scorpion but usually is taken out without much damage to the cruisers, as long as they don't f**k up.
- Paladin still feels too overpowered and will hurt even a well-prepared fleet like this. I got lucky once or twice but avoid them for the most part, depending on enemy fleet composition.
Glad I'm not the only one feeling that.

One point of curiosity: Shard weapons have a % chance to deal a certain amount of extra damage to armour and hull. I've got the feeling that owed to this separate calculation, the bonus damage slips right through an active Templar shield. Am I right here?
I don't think it does go through the shield, but it might. I believe the way things like that are handled its just a separate "hit," not applying the damage directly, but I'm not sure.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 01, 2015, 08:05:53 PM
Thanks for the feedback, guys.  I've made a few changes:

- Joyeuse Fractal Laser damage reduced to 800 from 900 per shot; ammo restriction lifted
- Sentenia Cannon flux cost reduced to 125 from 140 per shot
- Clarent MRM (Single) OP reduced to 3 from 4
- Clarent MRM OP reduced to 8 from 10
- Clarent MRM Tube OP increased to 20 from 18
- Clarent MRM Tube now regenerates 1 ammo every 67 seconds
- Lattice Shield now scales damage reduction, efficiency, and critical level based on ship size

The destroyer is not changed, frigates are generally buffed (0.8 -> 0.6 efficiency, 90% -> 95% damage reduction (full), 50% -> 60% damage reduction (critical), 75% -> 85% critical level), and the cruiser is definitely nerfed (1.0 efficiency, 80% damage reduction (full), 40% damage reduction (critical), 75% -> 70% critical level).
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on November 01, 2015, 08:28:27 PM
Thanks for the feedback, guys.  I've made a few changes:

- Joyeuse Fractal Laser damage reduced to 800 from 900 per shot; ammo restriction lifted
- Sentenia Cannon flux cost reduced to 125 from 140 per shot
- Clarent MRM (Single) OP reduced to 3 from 4
- Clarent MRM OP reduced to 8 from 10
- Clarent MRM Tube OP increased to 20 from 18
- Clarent MRM Tube now regenerates 1 ammo every 67 seconds
- Lattice Shield now scales damage reduction, efficiency, and critical level based on ship size

The destroyer is not changed, frigates are generally buffed (0.8 -> 0.6 efficiency, 90% -> 95% damage reduction (full), 50% -> 60% damage reduction (critical), 75% -> 85% critical level), and the cruiser is definitely nerfed (1.0 efficiency, 80% damage reduction (full), 40% damage reduction (critical), 75% -> 70% critical level).
Awesome, sounds good to me.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Histidine on November 02, 2015, 02:36:00 AM
Oh goody, Paladins will actually be manageable now!

A few more minor things (IMO anyway):
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Megas on November 02, 2015, 04:54:20 AM
I had fleets with several Smiter wings and cheap carriers (Condor or Gemini), then watch the fireworks.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Megas on November 02, 2015, 05:21:33 AM
Quote
Secace and Galatine Autocannons both seem perfectly acceptable to me. I think the two are one of the things make Templar ships uniquely intimidating, as forcibly raising flux is such a rare effect. Similarly, both flavors of beam are uniquely powerful in the SS universe, but not so much as to be overbearing.
Galatines will tear stuff up.  Weapons are uniquely Templar, but can be used by anyone.  Once their weapons fall into my hands, it is a powerup for most of my ships (to the point that I no longer play Templars unless I want to play godships).  Some standard ships really get stronger; Paragon becomes a godship with Templar weapons.  Blackrock ships tend to have better hulls (and slightly worse weapons).  I have yet to put Templar weapons on Blackrock hulls, but I bet Blackrock ships will become extremely powerful.

As for Sentennia, the 800 range is godly for ships limited to energy mounts, and homing makes it even better.  No energy weapon aside from beams exceeds 700 range, and mediums do not exceed 600.  Shot range is one of the important stats in the game.  Some versions ago, it had better efficiency than heavy blasters.  For me, Sentennia is a no-brainer to use it instead of every other medium and heavy energy weapon unless I absolutely cannot have windup, such as a Hyperion versus Paragon match-up.  However, if Sentennias are in the game, then I need to fight Templars, and my Hyperion needs more (than 600) range to kill a Paladin in a one-on-one fight.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 02, 2015, 08:34:03 AM
Hmm, how about this?

- Teuton Smiters are now 2 per wing, FP reduced to 12 from 14, refit time increased to 25 seconds from 20
- Aegis Shield cooldown increased to 5 seconds from 1
- Crusader armor increased to 1000 from 800
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Nanao-kun on November 02, 2015, 09:09:21 AM
I love the Juger. Big, arcing, energy ball of death.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Megas on November 02, 2015, 09:55:57 AM
I love the Juger. Big, arcing, energy ball of death.
After it got buffed some time ago, I can agree with this.  It is a great all-purpose weapon.  It murders fighter wings and knocks out missiles at least as well as flak.  While direct hits are nothing spectacular compared to other Templar heavyweights, the damage is not too shabby.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on November 02, 2015, 10:12:13 AM
Quote
Secace and Galatine Autocannons both seem perfectly acceptable to me. I think the two are one of the things make Templar ships uniquely intimidating, as forcibly raising flux is such a rare effect. Similarly, both flavors of beam are uniquely powerful in the SS universe, but not so much as to be overbearing.
Galatines will tear stuff up.  Weapons are uniquely Templar, but can be used by anyone.  Once their weapons fall into my hands, it is a powerup for most of my ships (to the point that I no longer play Templars unless I want to play godships).  Some standard ships really get stronger; Paragon becomes a godship with Templar weapons.  Blackrock ships tend to have better hulls (and slightly worse weapons).  I have yet to put Templar weapons on Blackrock hulls, but I bet Blackrock ships will become extremely powerful.

As for Sentennia, the 800 range is godly for ships limited to energy mounts, and homing makes it even better.  No energy weapon aside from beams exceeds 700 range, and mediums do not exceed 600.  Shot range is one of the important stats in the game.  Some versions ago, it had better efficiency than heavy blasters.  For me, Sentennia is a no-brainer to use it instead of every other medium and heavy energy weapon unless I absolutely cannot have windup, such as a Hyperion versus Paragon match-up.  However, if Sentennias are in the game, then I need to fight Templars, and my Hyperion needs more (than 600) range to kill a Paladin in a one-on-one fight.
Hmm. Galatines are good, but I wouldn't say they're that good. They're a little different from the Secace cannons in that their damage is actually respectable as well, but I don't know. I don't tend to use them often as they're harder to come by, so maybe I'm just missing out.
As for Blackrock ships, I don't see how their weapons are weak, but the trick you're leaving out is that high end Blackrock ships tend to have very high OP, and the vent rate to handle venting constantly, both of which are required for the Sentenia cannon on a smaller ship. I know the 800 range is amazing. It is. But you seem to just discount the 50% extra op over a heavy blaster. What this basically comes down to, is the Sentenia Cannons big unique thing is 200 range at the cost of 6 more OP. Is that worth it sometimes? Certainly. Most of the time? Probably not.

Blackrock ships one or two med energy mounts probably handle it better than anything if you cut corners elsewhere to make up the OP, but that still doesn't excuse it to me. The Sentenia Cannon isn't on the same level as other Templar weapons, mounting it doesn't mean an auto win. 200 range =/= Galatine like dominance. Its just not as good. When it had better efficiency than heavy blasters, it might have been too good simply because it was such a uniform upgrade if you could stomach the OP. As it is now, I personally still think it still needs a little better efficiency, or maybe better yet 2 OP off, but its fine. Its certainly not godly, and not an auto win. Mounting it is a choice.
Hmm, how about this?
- Teuton Smiters are now 2 per wing, FP reduced to 12 from 14, refit time increased to 25 seconds from 20
- Aegis Shield cooldown increased to 5 seconds from 1
- Crusader armor increased to 1000 from 800
The Smiter change seems good, I think the only thing I'd add is one wing of Smiters is manageable, three is not so much. I don't know how I'd try and account for that though, maybe putting the wings back up to three and giving and even longer refit time? Idk.
The Aegis Shield change miiiiight be a tad too much, I'd have to mess with it to say for sure. Maybe 3 or 4 seconds instead of 5, 5 seems like it might be a pinch too long.
Other than that I like it.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Blaze on November 02, 2015, 12:15:12 PM
- Teuton Smiters are now 2 per wing, FP reduced to 12 from 14, refit time increased to 25 seconds from 20
I say you keep it at 3, and change the two-fer Clarent to a singleton. Maybe change the single 360-arc Carnewwan to two 180-arcs to stay comparable to other variants. You still end up with 6 missiles both ways. I would've just removed the built-in singleton, but then it'd lag behind the other variants.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 02, 2015, 12:18:09 PM
i cant make the changes you describe, aside from swapping the dual rack for a single, unless I make a separate fighter hull.  At which point, I might as well make a new sprite and new ship altogether.  At least seeing a pair is a red flag for pain.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Blaze on November 02, 2015, 12:28:40 PM
I checked the files. I though each version had a ship file, but you use a single hull.ship file and use variants to add weapons.

Eh, it's all good.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on November 02, 2015, 12:43:32 PM
i cant make the changes you describe, aside from swapping the dual rack for a single, unless I make a separate fighter hull.  At which point, I might as well make a new sprite and new ship altogether.  At least seeing a pair is a red flag for pain.
True, being able to easily spot them easily would allow you think about if you like your odds or not, and to plan ahead accordingly. I think that's fine for now, unless someone comes up with a more elegant solution.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Megas on November 02, 2015, 01:45:14 PM
Secace is not powerful enough to be useful against anything bigger than a frigate.  Galatines are good enough that I mount a few instead of Maulers, HVDs, and some heavy weapons.  Forcing overloads your enemy can do nothing about and causing (possibly splash) damage while you are at is good.

Quote
I know the 800 range is amazing. It is. But you seem to just discount the 50% extra op over a heavy blaster. What this basically comes down to, is the Sentenia Cannons big unique thing is 200 range at the cost of 6 more OP. Is that worth it sometimes? Certainly. Most of the time? Probably not.
I did not forget.  800 range, homing, more efficient than blaster is much better than anything standard can offer.  For Hyperion, the homing aspect means I can cut out the pair of IR Pulse Lasers I mount for anti-fighter.  Instead, I can use Sentennia pair alone and outperform Hyperion with blasters and small weapons.  I have usually have no trouble cutting OP somewhere to fit Sentennia on most hulls.  Wolf becomes much more dangerous because it does not need to get so close to shoot things with a blaster.  Part of high-tech's weakness is it cannot kite with short-ranged pulse lasers and blasters.  Sentennias (and Juger and Joyese) enables high-tech ships to kite just as well as low-tech or other ballistic-heavy ships.

With Blasters, I need to get close, and I need to aim or I miss.  With Sentennia, I can hang further back and point at their general direction and be assured of hitting most of the time.  The only weakness with Sentennia is long-windup, which makes fighting phase ships a pain, and prevents Hyperion teleporting tricks to bypass omni-shields (that is, teleport behind ship and fire before it can raise shields).

If you can use heavier Templar weapons comfortably, by all means, use them instead of Sentennia.  Juger is an all-purpose weapon, doing both offense and defense at the same time well.  Joyese is flashy long-range pain, much like Onslaught's dual TPCs.  When I compare Sentennia to standard energy weapons (short range, poor efficiency) or Longinus (more expensive, soft flux only), Sentennia seems to reign supreme for medium energy mounts.  Sentennia even outranges Autopulse Laser and Plasma Cannon, so if I do not have enough OP for a real heavy weapons, I can still use Sentennia in a heavy energy mount.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: orost on November 02, 2015, 05:09:02 PM
I don't think the nerf to the Crusader's system is good. The 1-second cooldown makes it extremely powerful, yes, but I think it really needs to be that powerful. The Crusader can't flee, dodge, or stay at long range, so its durability is all it has going for its survival. The extraoridinary staying power it has is its primary attribute and I think it's perfect the way it is right now. (But I'll withhold any more complaining until I actually get to play with the change.)

I do like the rest of the changes though.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on November 02, 2015, 05:18:28 PM
Alright lets break this down. Heavy Blaster flux to damage ratio is 36:25 (-36.1% efficiency). Pre-nerf Sentenia was a 12:11 (-8.7%) ratio, which is obvious miles better than anything else. Post nerf Sentenia is 7:5 (-33.3%), which puts it basically on par with the Heavy Blaster, but the Cannon is still ~3% better. Current state Sentenia 5:4 (-22.2%), which is much better. The Cannon has slightly less DPS than the blaster, 200 more range, tracking, and no friendly fire. The Blaster has 8 less OP, and 5 times the alpha damage.

So calculating using 1000 armor, one Blaster hit will do 166.6 damage to armor, while a Sentenia shot will do ~9.1 damage a hit for 90.9 damage a burst, if they all hit roughly the same spot, not accounting for armor loss during the burst. This makes the Blaster 58.8% better than the Sentenia against heavily armored targets, at least initially, and it only gets worse the more armor is involved.

So do you think the Cannon should be not be changed from its current form? Also, im curious as to what you think of the SKS cannons from P9 Megas. Do you think those are overpowered?
Also, what you said about using a Sentenia in a heavy slot is something I was avoiding bringing up because I couldn't think of a good way to word it, but it generally feels like the only ships that could handle the cost of the post nerf Sentenia were ships that had more large than medium slots, and I would rather use those large slots when I can, Templar weapons not withstanding. You seem to really really value the tracking, much more than I do, so there's not for me to say about it.

I will say the Sentenia seems more adept at killing smaller ships than larger ones, because of its qualities. That might be kind of a stretch, but it is highly effective vs fighters, and not great against armor. Your Hyperion example seems to be somewhat of an isolated case to me, and I have to say I don't really have issues with aiming at fighters, and if you're having a hard time or not wanting to spare the focus, just let the AI do it. Its probably better 90% of the time anyway. The range is something I can't contest. Because long range energy weapons are so rare, that 200 su is probably worth far more than it should be. But as I said, I think its good the way it is, but I think 18 -> 16 OP might be fine too. Would take some testing to see if it was too good, but I think it would work.

I don't think the nerf to the Crusader's system is good. The 1-second cooldown makes it extremely powerful, yes, but I think it really needs to be that powerful. The Crusader can't flee, dodge, or stay at long range, so its durability is all it has going for its survival. The extraoridinary staying power it has is its primary attribute and I think it's perfect the way it is right now. (But I'll withhold any more complaining until I actually get to play with the change.)
I do like the rest of the changes though.
You can make the Crusader changes yourself easily now if you like (not the shield changes though). I can tell you how if you like.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 02, 2015, 05:22:52 PM
I don't think the nerf to the Crusader's system is good. The 1-second cooldown makes it extremely powerful, yes, but I think it really needs to be that powerful. The Crusader can't flee, dodge, or stay at long range, so its durability is all it has going for its survival. The extraoridinary staying power it has is its primary attribute and I think it's perfect the way it is right now. (But I'll withhold any more complaining until I actually get to play with the change.)

I do like the rest of the changes though.
You could play with the change now by opening the ship_data.csv in a spreadsheet editor and increasing the armor to 1000 and doing the same with the ship_systems.csv and changing the cooldown to 5
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: orost on November 02, 2015, 05:30:39 PM
Oh, you're right, that's in the CSV. For some reason I thought it would be in the script, and recompiling the .jar is not something I wanted to get into right now. Thanks.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Megas on November 02, 2015, 06:56:12 PM
So do you think the Cannon should be not be changed from its current form? Also, im curious as to what you think of the SKS cannons from P9 Megas. Do you think those are overpowered?
SKS?  P9?  The only faction mods I am familiar with are Blackrock and Templars (and a few other dead ones).  I usually play mod-less standard.

The reason I use Sentennia in a heavy slot is because standard heavy energy weapons are weak enough (as of 0.65) that I prefer Heavy Blaster over all of them unless I desperately need the 700 range from plasma cannon and I have no better alternative.  (For example, I use plasma cannon with Apogee, but I use triple heavy blasters with Sunder, and capitals get heavy blasters in all heavy mounts.)  Similarly, in an earlier version of Templars, their heavy weapons did not outperform Sentennia enough to justify using them over Sentennia.  For example, why pay 20 or more OP for a heavier weapon that outperforms a powerful medium weapon by say... only +25%?

If I prefer Heavy Blaster over any heavy standard energy weapon, and I prefer Sentennia over Heavy Blaster in every situation except in a rare Hyperion vs. Combat 10 Paragon or Doom matchup, then (of course) I want to use Sentennia.  (I will still keep a blaster Hyperion handy to counter pesky Paragons and Dooms.)

Juger used to be awful; now the arcing is truly murderous against small stuff, and direct hit is painful.  Joyese ran out of juice over prolonged battles enough that Sentennia might have overtook it, much like how Heavy Blaster overtakes Autopulse Laser in about six seconds.

Hyperion is not the only ship I use Sentennia.  I use it on every standard and Templar ship with medium energy mounts except Tempest (because it cannot support two without giving up too much).  For ships with medium universals, Galatine may compete because forcing overloads is powerful.  As for Paragon, it has enough OP to indulge in heavy Templar weapons.  A properly outfitted Paragon with Templar weapons can kill the entire simulator fleet (deployed as much and soon as possible) before running out of CR (but it is hard... so much ships).

The last time I tried the Sentennia, after it was nerfed, I thought it is was still very powerful.  Despite not being all-powerful, range and homing still made it very powerful.  Most importantly, Sentennia enables high-tech ships to kite.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Tartiflette on November 03, 2015, 01:40:21 AM
[...]The only faction mods I am familiar with are Blackrock and Templars (and a few other dead ones).[...]
Which is sad: While I completely disagree with you on what is fun when playing a game, I think you are a GREAT benchmark to find loopholes and exploits.
...
[obvious bait] Also, I'm surprised you didn't at least tried Scy with their burn 4 light super freighter? [/obvious bait]  ;D
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Achataeon on November 03, 2015, 02:13:21 AM
Quick question:

Is the Arondight Accelerator's piercing ability intentional? I find that shooting ships from behind hits the engine AND the shield up front. Since each shot of an AA causes a rise in the flux of the ship hit, and then the projectile hits the shields and causes another flux raise, then comes the overload. Long story short, it's easy to cause overloads even on capital ships.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Blaze on November 03, 2015, 07:40:29 AM
[obvious bait] Also, I'm surprised you didn't at least tried Scy with their burn 4 light super freighter? [/obvious bait]  ;D
To be fair, Blackrock's Silverfish-B's 5 S-Missile VS the Centaur's 1 M-Missile makes it superior IMO. And Metelson's M.A.S.A. vC beats the Centaur in nearly everything.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Megas on November 03, 2015, 08:49:43 AM
@ Tartiflette: I downloaded Scy a day or two ago, but I have not yet been motivated to install 7-zip on my computer to extract the files.  Until I need to use 7-zip for more stuff, I probably will not try Scy for a while.  Currently, I have projects to divert some of my attention away from Starsector.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 03, 2015, 08:57:44 AM
@ Tartiflette: I downloaded Scy a day or two ago, but I have not yet been motivated to install 7-zip on my computer to extract the files.  Until I need to use 7-zip for more stuff, I probably will not try Scy for a while.  Currently, I have projects to divert some of my attention away from Starsector.

Installing 7-zip takes less time than loading up Starsector.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Nanao-kun on November 03, 2015, 09:09:30 AM
I get the feeling Megas has no intention of really bothering with mods at all. Or at least, only plans to play them once he's minmaxed and exploited every ship, weapon, and ship system he can find in what he already has.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on November 03, 2015, 09:51:12 AM
@ Tartiflette: I downloaded Scy a day or two ago, but I have not yet been motivated to install 7-zip on my computer to extract the files.  Until I need to use 7-zip for more stuff, I probably will not try Scy for a while.  Currently, I have projects to divert some of my attention away from Starsector.
Installing 7-zip takes less time than loading up Starsector.
Its funny how true that is.

Anyway, if all you have to work with is vanilla, I can see why the Sentenia is so appealing, as the large weapons are all very niche and not necessarily easy to use. Also,
I get the feeling Megas has no intention of really bothering with mods at all. Or at least, only plans to play them once he's minmaxed and exploited every ship, weapon, and ship system he can find in what he already has.
Damn
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Tartiflette on November 03, 2015, 10:23:39 AM
@ Tartiflette: I downloaded Scy a day or two ago, but I have not yet been motivated to install 7-zip on my computer to extract the files.  Until I need to use 7-zip for more stuff, I probably will not try Scy for a while.  Currently, I have projects to divert some of my attention away from Starsector.
Winrar opens 7z archives too... Scratch that, 7z archives can be opened by almost every compression program in existence but Windows Explorer.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Megas on November 03, 2015, 10:44:45 AM
For now, much of my gaming and modding energy is to Transcendence, not Starsector (due to me finding Transcendence first and making mods for it).  Eventually, once I can make my own assets, I prefer to make my own game.  One thing I like to do some time in the future is learn how to use a modelling program (probably Blender, since it looks like the GIMP of 3D modelling) so I can make ships for Transcendence and Starsector.  If I make a mod for Starsector, the one thing I do not want to do is kitbash.

After dealing with game mods for many years, I prefer not to play with mods too much, unless I make my mods.  I like the base game to stand on its own without mods.  If I need a mod to make a game enjoyable, the game is not very good to begin with.  (Although I am more forgiving if the game is free, which Starsector is not.)  That said, I try mods here and there, if they look promising.  After all, I would not have given feedback on various mods like Blackrock or Templars if I have not.

@ Dark Revenant:  I used 7-zip before on my previous computer.  I have no interest to use it again just for one game mod only.  Similarly, if I want to play with a lot of Starsector mods, I need to get 64-bit Java on my computer; and I do not want to deal with that just for an unfinished game.  I do not live for Starsector.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: orost on November 04, 2015, 06:19:22 PM
@Megas: Don't mind me, but just saying, in the time you spend posting on this forum in just one day, you could install 64-bit Java, 7-zip and all the major mods a dozen times over :P
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: The Soldier on November 04, 2015, 06:57:00 PM
@Megas: Don't mind me, but just saying, in the time you spend posting on this forum in just one day, you could install 64-bit Java, 7-zip and all the major mods a dozen times over :P
Megas is a munchkin.  Don't bother trying to change his ways - he has only one way, that's ruthlessly exploiting the AI with minimal effort.  Which includes mods. :P

Also, no offense, if you don't care too much for Starsector (you're just playing it on the side, compared to Tran), why are you here?  Sure, everyone's opinion matters, but your way of playing is so out of whack compared to the rest of ours that any input you have for us is effectively worthless.  This pretty much encompasses everything you say - balance, gameplay, design.  Also, under the same heading as the second and third words in this paragraph, you seem really damn full of yourself when you actually have to give a reason as to why you want the download to be in something other than .7z.  You're making the rest of us, as well as Starsector, seem pretty damn unimportant - yet you keep coming back.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Nanao-kun on November 04, 2015, 08:04:02 PM
A lot of the things he says tends to be oddly hostile.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Blaze on November 04, 2015, 09:56:04 PM
So funny discovery.

A Boxer mod-hull, with the full 30% OP from skills, +10% max flux from skills, and 17 points in Flux capacity, when using the ammo feeder's -30% flux cost will have JUUUUUST enough flux to fire an Arondight Accelerator.

That Onslaught had a big surprise.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on November 04, 2015, 10:16:31 PM
So funny discovery.

A Boxer mod-hull, with the full 30% OP from skills, +10% max flux from skills, and 17 points in Flux capacity, when using the ammo feeder's -30% flux cost will have JUUUUUST enough flux to fire an Arondight Accelerator.

That Onslaught had a big surprise.
Jesus christ, lmao
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Megas on November 05, 2015, 04:41:25 AM
I am here because I like Starsector.  If I did not, do ye think I would be here?  I have better things to do than to troll forums, which is a waste of time.

If I develop mods for one game, but not Starsector, of course I will spend more time on the other game.  Actually, I like Starsector more than Transcendence overall, but I have mods to support for the latter - plenty of them, and some are big!  That leaves much less time for doing more things for Starsector.  This is a side-effect of me finding Transcendence before Starfarer by at least a year.  I would not have known about Starfarer/Starsector (or SPAZ) if not for the Transcendence community.

Anyone is free to upload their mods in any format.  Just do not expect others to use it if the format is not supported by default by the client's system.  There is no shame for me refusing to download third-party add-ons for me to use someone else's third-party add-on.

@ The_Soldier & Nanao-kun:  Take what I write as you will.  It is not my job to not offend people; too many people take offense for merely disagreeing with something.  People who are too concerned with offending others is how much of the world is cowed and silenced by political correctness these days.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: The Soldier on November 05, 2015, 07:13:15 AM
You can like Starsector and not mod it - in fact, that's pretty much me these days.  And I don't condemn you with the fact that you're not installing a 64-bit version of Java on your system because I went through hell and back to get that to work on my own computer.  Those aspects don't offend me in any way.  I respect what you say (and sometimes may not agree), but in the end, it's the way that you say these kinds of things that really ticks me me off.  It explicitly sounded like a threat when you said:
@ Tartiflette: I downloaded Scy a day or two ago, but I have not yet been motivated to install 7-zip on my computer to extract the files.  Until I need to use 7-zip for more stuff, I probably will not try Scy for a while.
You sound like a stuck-up guy in a Youtube comments sections saying, "if you don't do this, I'll unsubscribe!".  Although I do condemn Tartiflette for the file in .7z and not .zip (I mean, why would you do that?  .zip is pretty much the universal compressed file type), you could have simply asked to change the file type and not say what amount to "or else I won't play this mod."  At that point, you're just sounding like a prick.  And no, I am not "cowed and silenced" by political correctness here - I've been banned here for speaking up against stuff I didn't like, but that doesn't prevent me from speaking my point now.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Cycerin on November 05, 2015, 07:21:34 AM
If you are beyond downloading a tiny program in order to enjoy one of the best mods ever made for a game you play all the time, it's going to raise a few eyebrows. It's better to just say that you don't care about playing the mod all that much and the extra effort of getting 7zip makes you not care at all. That said, who gives a crap, please use this thread to discuss our mod and not Megas' idiosyncrasies
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: The Soldier on November 05, 2015, 07:27:10 AM
That said, who gives a crap, please use this thread to discuss our mod and not Megas' idiosyncrasies
Fair enough.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Megas on November 05, 2015, 09:00:16 AM
@ Cycerin:  Understood.  I know being unorthodox may "raise eyebrows".  Remember when CR was introduced?  (I was in the minority who really disliked it.)  Then again, better left buried.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Tartiflette on November 05, 2015, 09:59:10 AM
[...]Although I do condemn Tartiflette for the file in .7z and not .zip (I mean, why would you do that?  .zip is pretty much the universal compressed file type) [...]
Because I have a crappy slow and unstable internet connection with tons of micro-disconnections. Since Bitbucket don't support upload resuming, the 25%+ size gain between a ZIP and a 7z for me is the difference between spending 45min trying to upload my mod and spending up to 2 hours... Besides, opening 7z archive is supported by almost every single archive software except the one built-in Windows Explorer.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HeartofDiscord on November 05, 2015, 10:32:09 PM
@ The_Soldier & Nanao-kun:  Take what I write as you will.  It is not my job to not offend people; too many people take offense for merely disagreeing with something.  People who are too concerned with offending others is how much of the world is cowed and silenced by political correctness these days.
Your method of writing comes off as very condescending. That being said, text has no intonation.

[...]Although I do condemn Tartiflette for the file in .7z and not .zip (I mean, why would you do that?  .zip is pretty much the universal compressed file type) [...]
Because I have a crappy slow and unstable internet connection with tons of micro-disconnections. Since Bitbucket don't support upload resuming, the 25%+ size gain between a ZIP and a 7z for me is the difference between spending 45min trying to upload my mod and spending up to 2 hours... Besides, opening 7z archive is supported by almost every single archive software except the one built-in Windows Explorer.
Don't worry about it man. 7z files can be read by almost anything like you said, its not a big deal. If someone doesn't want to bite, its their own loss.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Schwartz on November 08, 2015, 10:16:03 AM
After butting heads with Templars some more, I've found another annoying NPC dynamic that I already hinted at in my earlier post. Clarent spam that happens with several Teuton wings and an Archbishop who keeps resupplying them. It's not unusual at all to have a dozen or more Clarents homing in on you at once, and these bursts can happen in quick succession every 10 seconds or so.

Now I am -not- arguing that such a fleet should not be able to take you apart, but being constantly on the receiving end of 'game over' style missile spam is beginning to feel cheap. I do want to still feel threatened by Teutons. Anyway, the only counter I can think of is either matching the Templar fleet 1:1 and having ridiculous Clarent-fests or bringing several Paladins to EMP burst them all and hopefully never miss a beat. I could see Flare Burst Launchers working, but they'd run out of ammo quickly.

I would much prefer if fighter wings mixed it up a little with other weapons or even Mini-Clarents that couldn't be restocked but instead regenerated. Thoughts?
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: SpacePoliticianAndaZealot on November 08, 2015, 10:24:01 AM
Since Clarents are pretty weak in regard to general missle defense, I would suggest simply fielding a dedicated PD (destroyer-sized) ship.
Try outfitting an Archer with Flare Burst Launchers if you can. It should work against concentrated missle spams.
Regenerating missles are bad news IMO.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HELMUT on November 08, 2015, 10:46:36 AM
Get a phase ship to bait the Clarents. Otherwise, a few large PD weapon can more or less nullify a Templar carrier fleet (Guardian PD, Juger cannon...).
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Schwartz on November 08, 2015, 11:37:49 AM
None of these strategies work very well against a sizeable number of Teutons. You'll simply get overwhelmed. As a phase ship, you're either: Far enough from your fleet that the Clarents keep circling you, in which case you're close enough to the carrier that Teutons just turn around and immediately re-arm. It's a stall. Or you're close enough to your fleet that the Clarents keep on flying, in which case your ships most likely get insta-fragged. Flare Bursts, Tiandong long-range Flak and Guardian PD all work, it's just not enough to save your ships.

The best Clarent defense is a Paladin with IPDAI, Rhons and Merceds. But even those get taken out. I brought two, along with an Asura, two Mayorate missile cruisers for AA and a couple of Skinwalkers for point capture. One Archbishop, six Teuton wings plus two Templar frigates are enough to take that fleet apart each time.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Megas on November 08, 2015, 12:22:16 PM
And if you turn it back on the AI with a Smiter-and-carrier fleet of your own, you dominate a few fights, then you hemorrhage in supplies and money just to maintain your cheese fleet.  Mostly a late-game option after you have stockpiled so much.

What Templars could use is a souped-up destroyer-sized carrier, just to aggravate people more.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 08, 2015, 12:36:38 PM
The Smiter wings are being nerfed a bit, so you'll only see two per wing, plus they take longer to refit.  I will reduce the range on non-Smiter Clarents to SRM-tier, though, so they don't all come in at once.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HELMUT on November 08, 2015, 12:44:13 PM
As a phase ship, you're either: Far enough from your fleet that the Clarents keep circling you, in which case you're close enough to the carrier that Teutons just turn around and immediately re-arm. It's a stall.

That's the idea. Every Clarents wasted on a phase ship give more time for the rest of the fleet to close the gap against the Archibshop. It's not easy, but that's still the safest way i found to take on those fleets.

However, it's no wonder you lost with your fleet. Five cruisers, even with the two Paladins, are fresh meat for a carrier fleet like this. And the Asura isn't a good phase decoy ship either.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Tschudy on November 08, 2015, 03:09:05 PM
ITs a shame interstellar federation is dead.  Otherwise the templars could just have a nice big helping of omega device.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Schwartz on November 08, 2015, 09:07:17 PM
However, it's no wonder you lost with your fleet. Five cruisers, even with the two Paladins, are fresh meat for a carrier fleet like this. And the Asura isn't a good phase decoy ship either.

What would you bring? I'm still on that one fight, so I'm up for trying out some configurations. It's right outside my base, so assume you have all SS+ ships in the game available. ;D

The enemy consists of: 1 Archbishop, 4 Jesuit, 6 Teuton wings.

Edit: Asura, 200 supplies worth of Tempests, Afflictors, Shades and Omens: Minced.
Asura, 4 Scylla, 4 Doom, 6 Afflictors, 6 Shades: Did decent against the first few waves, then minced.
Asura, 2 Paladins, 6 Burst Flare Scorpions, 6 Shades: Minced.

One winning combination! 2 Paladins, 5 Doom with Burst Flares, 4 Afflictor for point capture. Piloting the Paladin and getting in close to intercept at least some of the Clarents with burst, I was able to take the b*tch out.

Since there's already some Clarent changes incoming, I'm not gonna bemoan this any further. We'll see how it plays out in the next version. My conclusion so far is this: Clarent spam can be overcome by gearing your fleet to counter it. However, such an equipped fleet is simply going to hit a brick wall with the Archbishop afterwards. The only way I've ever taken one of these out is by piloting a Paladin myself. But this leaves my fleet without phase bait which almost seems essential. Archbishop alone is doable, Teuton wings alone are doable. Both of them at once.. not so much.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Histidine on November 09, 2015, 05:17:24 AM
Best thing I can suggest is to take point with either a Paragon to sponge the Clarents on the shield (vent in between volleys), or an Onslaught with 2-3 Aegis Flak Cannons.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: HELMUT on November 09, 2015, 06:08:54 AM
A flagship Archbishop is going to be a brick wall no matter what anyway. With max combat skills, it's probably the hardest ship in the game to take down, especially at low health when it can regenerate faster than you can damage it. A handy trick is to retreat and re-engage to get it at low CR.

But yeah, that last fleet of yours is definitely better for this scenario. I personally don't use that many phase ships. Only one or two Afflictors, barely armed, their jobs is just to dance around the enemy fleet to catch their attention. For the rest? Cruisers and battleships, tanky ones if possible. Destroyers and frigates are too frail to handle Templar's priwen burst. The Dooms aren't a bad idea because they are more or less immune to Clarents, and can still pack quite a punch.

Or as Histidine said, a few Paragons. The perfect combination of tankiness to survive the Teutons and heavy firepower to engage the Archbishop. Not so sure about the Onslaughts, but i have to admit i haven't really tried the Aegis flak yet.

But even then, there's no magic trick with Templars. Even with a specialized fleet, you're never guaranteed to win. And i like that, it's the end-game boss after all.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 09, 2015, 08:23:35 AM
To be fair, the Archbishop is supposed to be the hardest Templar challenge.  Defeating it isn't really supposed to be easy; even after the Clarent changes, you'll still have to counter them, just with a little less trial and error.
Title: Re: [0.65.2a] The Knights Templar v0.9.4g
Post by: Megas on November 09, 2015, 09:56:12 AM
Player can scuttle the Teuton fighters and get the unlimited Clarents in the inventory, but they cannot be mounted.  I remember seeing this months ago, but did not think much of it until I recently and inadvertently did the same to stock fighters for their Swarmers.  (I posted the Swarmers bug earlier today at the bugs forum.)
Title: [0.7a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 27, 2015, 02:37:04 PM
Wee!

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?mplc2pcs9dc59f7)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.5 (https://www.mediafire.com/?mplc2pcs9dc59f7)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.5.zip)
(Requires LazyLib 2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0)) (Updated!)
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.1.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Starsector+ 3.0.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated Soon)
(Supported by Nexerelin 0.6.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0)) (Updated Soon)

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.5
- Updated for 0.7a
- Portraits added
- Sprite update
- Teuton Smiters are now 2 per wing, FP reduced to 12 from 14, refit time increased to 25 seconds from 20
- Singular fighter Clarent range reduced to 1200 (theoretical max 2400) from 1500 (theoretical max 3600)
- Aegis Shield cooldown increased to 3.5 seconds from 1
- Crusader armor increased to 1000 from 800
- Joyeuse Fractal Laser damage reduced to 800 from 900 per shot; ammo restriction lifted
- Sentenia Cannon flux cost reduced to 125 from 140 per shot
- Secace Autocannon damage increased to 120 from 75
- Secace Autocannon hard flux increased to 250 from 200
- Clarent MRM (Single) OP reduced to 3 from 4
- Clarent MRM OP reduced to 8 from 10
- Clarent MRM Tube OP increased to 20 from 18
- Clarent MRM Tube now regenerates 1 ammo every 67 seconds
- Lattice Shield now scales damage reduction, efficiency, and critical level based on ship size
- Clarents and ROLAND are smarter about retargeting from phased ships
- Added another boss ship for SS+
Title: Re: [0.7a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5
Post by: Aklyon on November 27, 2015, 03:46:36 PM
Does it work without SS+, if this is updated?
Title: Re: [0.7a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 27, 2015, 03:50:21 PM
Of course.
Title: Re: [0.7a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5
Post by: Ceebees on November 27, 2015, 05:35:28 PM
Noticed a small bug with the Rhon laser, the impact effect appears to be offset from the actual impact location

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/bPuGbop.jpg)
[close]

In motion, the effect is always that distance, but in line with the beam and not fixed relative to the ship model, if that helps?

VV Ah, whoops. Well, I never noticed it before, anyway.
Title: Re: [0.7a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 27, 2015, 05:51:59 PM
Noticed a small bug with the Rhon laser, the impact effect appears to be offset from the actual impact location

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/bPuGbop.jpg)
[close]

In motion, the effect is always that distance, but in line with the beam and not fixed relative to the ship model, if that helps?
It is a vanilla bug effecting all beam on hit effects, IIRC
Title: Re: [0.7a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5
Post by: StarSchulz on November 27, 2015, 10:28:00 PM
oh my... the thought of Templar ships with the power of combat 10 terrifies me.
Title: Re: [0.7a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5
Post by: Schwartz on November 28, 2015, 12:23:13 AM
On the flipside.. having a fleet with maxed officers on your side should help even more, as a lot of the Templar's abilities don't scale with Combat skills, like the burst and their unique shield stats. The damage-ups, speed bonuses and missile spec are terrifying though.
Title: Re: [0.7a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 28, 2015, 12:42:10 AM
On the flipside.. having a fleet with maxed officers on your side should help even more, as a lot of the Templar's abilities don't scale with Combat skills, like the burst and their unique shield stats. The damage-ups, speed bonuses and missile spec are terrifying though.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but they actually do scale with skills.
Title: Re: [0.7a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5
Post by: Schwartz on November 28, 2015, 12:43:28 AM
How, though? I don't see any skills that particularly influence an EMP burst. Damage dealt? Please do elaborate!
Title: Re: [0.7a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 28, 2015, 12:54:18 AM
How, though? I don't see any skills that particularly influence an EMP burst. Damage dealt? Please do elaborate!

Shield/flux skills affect the shield, obviously.  Flux skills also affect the burst.
Title: Re: [0.7a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5
Post by: Sabaton on November 28, 2015, 02:33:55 AM
oh my... the thought of Templar ships with the power of combat 10 terrifies me.

Heh heh, just wait for a while longer as they said they will release a templar battleship eventually....

Sweet dreams!
Title: Re: [0.7a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5
Post by: Spoorthuzad on November 28, 2015, 03:35:26 AM
Oh got the horror!
Title: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 06, 2015, 08:26:39 PM
Quite a number of fixes.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?x3d6cyhvcyyspoa)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.5b (https://www.mediafire.com/?x3d6cyhvcyyspoa)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.5b.zip)
(Requires LazyLib 2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.1.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Starsector+ 3.0.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Nexerelin 0.7 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0)) (Updated!)

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.5b
- Updated for 0.7.1a
- Clarent speed adjusted depending on specific type being launched
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Ranakastrasz on December 08, 2015, 10:48:58 AM
Is there any way to increase effective bounty for Templar ships, due to their increased potency for size?
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Vinyl Dash on December 08, 2015, 10:58:39 AM
Hey, I've been using this mod for years, It's been great.

However, I've been running into some issues with the interaction between this and the commission system.
The Templars start of as unhospitable toward the player, presumably so you don't have to fight them until you feel ready. However, taking a commission is pretty much required to progress at a good rate in the game now. Since the Templars are hostile to every other faction, taking a commission makes you hostile to them as well. This, by itself, is fine.

Problem is, a lot of the Templar ships have very high burn speed, making avoiding confrontation often almost impossible. The changes with the commission system kind of broke the "The Templars won't mess with you until you're ready"-thing this mod had going for it previously.

Maybe there's some way to fix it at a high level, having the Templar's relationship with the player be unaffected by commissions. If not, maybe lowering their burn speed by 1 across the board would help. Right now, the mod is probably not quite giving the desired experience.
Title: Re: [0.7a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5
Post by: 174gjc on December 09, 2015, 08:23:36 PM
oh my... the thought of Templar ships with the power of combat 10 terrifies me.

Heh heh, just wait for a while longer as they said they will release a templar battleship eventually....

Sweet dreams!

Just use console commands- the Pope battleship is already there but still unreleased. It is quite powerful, but really just a reskin of the classic Templar carrier.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 09, 2015, 08:25:00 PM
I saw that in the codex... terrifying.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: zoe_zucchini on December 09, 2015, 08:26:16 PM
It's an SS+ boss bounty, not really a regular battleship.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Surge on December 10, 2015, 01:17:57 PM
I've noticed a few things, one the Templar seem to project their power into a much larger area and with MUCH larger fleets without a crusade than before, I've seen them blockading Hybrasil a few times, two Diable Avionics is basically unplayable with the Templar installed because the rate of Templar fleet spawns and their presence in hyperspace combined with them being literal neighbors with Outer Terminus means that Diable can do literally nothing about anything, they cannot move goods, they cannot project fleets into the rest of the sector, they just sit in Outer Terminus and anything that leaves gets blapped by Templar. The first should probably be an easy fix for you, but for the second may I recommend shifting Ascalon from the top right corner to the bottom left corner of the map? Considering the Templar and Church of Ludd hate each other a bit more than most of the other factions I like the idea that Eos Exodus become the nearest system to Ascalon.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Tartiflette on December 10, 2015, 01:48:26 PM
I think the opposite position of Ludd and Templar space was actually the whole point: their fleets have to travel through the whole sector like menacing tidal wave everyone has to run from.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Surge on December 10, 2015, 02:34:34 PM
Fair enough I suppose, I don't particularly fear the Church but then again I don't ever really fight them either.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 10, 2015, 04:15:13 PM
Been having some serious fun with this mod! finally got to a spot where i could fight some Templar without loosing my entire fleet. Turns out, SCY ships make a great combo with salvaged Templar weapons!
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Surge on December 10, 2015, 04:21:19 PM
It's really hard to make Templar weapons work on non-Templar ships, I had some good experiences putting them on capital ships though.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 10, 2015, 05:40:50 PM
I've noticed a few things, one the Templar seem to project their power into a much larger area and with MUCH larger fleets without a crusade than before, I've seen them blockading Hybrasil a few times, two Diable Avionics is basically unplayable with the Templar installed because the rate of Templar fleet spawns and their presence in hyperspace combined with them being literal neighbors with Outer Terminus means that Diable can do literally nothing about anything, they cannot move goods, they cannot project fleets into the rest of the sector, they just sit in Outer Terminus and anything that leaves gets blapped by Templar. The first should probably be an easy fix for you, but for the second may I recommend shifting Ascalon from the top right corner to the bottom left corner of the map? Considering the Templar and Church of Ludd hate each other a bit more than most of the other factions I like the idea that Eos Exodus become the nearest system to Ascalon.

Good point; I'll make them not care about distance when determining who to attack - so diable isn't as screwed.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 10, 2015, 06:11:01 PM
The current game i am in nearly every system has 1 - 2 Templar carrier fleets in it.

Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 10, 2015, 06:59:22 PM
Unless they are crusading, Templars typically have around 10-15 fleets in the entire sector.  I have no idea why they are so elevated for you, unless you are running Nexerelin.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 10, 2015, 07:22:28 PM
I haven't tried Nexerelin yet. could the crusade fleets be getting distracted and scattering throughout the sector? i did notice that most of the fleets i encountered would be chasing something like a single ship that escaped initial attacks, and would never catch up to it. that ship would run away from the templar fleet, activating it's emergency speed whenever the templar fleet did.



Now that i think about it, fleets used to give up on chasing you after a short while if your burn speed was faster, but now they don't and will chase you forever if they need to.

I started a Nexerelin playthrough as a templar, and after i came back to ascalon i noticed many of the patrols were chasing a single pirate smuggler in a hound. probably the problem right there, they go chasing after it until they loose track or catch up and kill it. but the AI will "keep in contact" with a fleet that destroys the majority of it. so i imagine the templar fleets never make it back to ascalon because they are busy chasing the hounds!


So i guess its not a problem with the mod, its the patrol AI that is causing it.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Valhalla on December 12, 2015, 12:22:39 PM
So i was playing around with Nexerelin with this mod on, Was thinking "Oh neat, i can start out as a Templar!" So i did, worked my way up to a Paladin, got it fully kitted out, but instead of those four side mounts holding guns, i put on those nice little MRMs your faction has. All i have to say is ***, Four of those things kill practically anything, and even if they don't die from it, they are crippled and easily killed by anything else. So now when ever i start up a fight, i fire all 3/4 shots i have thanks to ranks in the correct skill, and hull mod, and i get at least 3 kills, usually fire them on something too close and they just constantly spin around the target. Its gotten to the point i don't even use any other ship, i mean sure im posting this after i lost the ship in a fight with 2 other capital ships, but i got to level 41 before that. These ships are by far some of the meanest i've ever had the fun of playing. Can't wait to see if you ever add anymore!
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Blaank on December 12, 2015, 11:24:20 PM
Is there any way to become friendly with the Templar?  Let me tell you, I'd rather pitch my lot in with them than anyone else.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 12, 2015, 11:50:57 PM
During a crusade if you happen to attack something that isn't templar in the system... they seem to like that! though, it will make anyone who isn't templar in the system very mad.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Blaank on December 13, 2015, 02:36:05 AM
I've got a real problem.  These guys are just flipping everywhere.  I see 1-2 fleets onscreen at any given time.  There are usually 4 hanging out in hyperspace around every system killing everything.  And at least 4 in each system killing everything.  I can't do the commission thing from SS+ because these guys are hostile to everyone and are everywhere and instantly kill me (My hammerhead was creamed by 5 missiles before they even came onscreen.).  "Pirate Armadas" consist of a few frigates because of all the Templars destroying things.  Trade is disrupted in every market constantly because Templars.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 13, 2015, 02:45:37 AM
I have no idea what's going on there.  Can you search starsector.log for -= Fleet Count Averages =- and paste that section here?

Also, are you playing Nexerelin?
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Blaank on December 13, 2015, 03:10:54 AM
Not playing Nexerelin.

21366182 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ Tiandong: 28.943575
21366182 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ all: 437.899
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ Hegemony: 63.05613
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ independent: 72.63497
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ Luddic Path: 20.000063
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ pirates: 53.57194
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ Tri-Tachyon: 26.681898
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ Neutral: 6.9999895
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ Imperium: 20.740702
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ ASP Syndicate: 2.995164
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ Luddic Church: 11.981704
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ Scy: 18.548111
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ Sindrian Diktat: 14.844882
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ Knights Templar: 78.87676
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ Blackrock: 9.999702
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ P.A.C.K.: 2.9999957
21366183 [Thread-5] INFO  data.scripts.campaign.SSP_FleetProfiler  -     ~ Junk Pirates: 3.9931445
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 13, 2015, 03:24:42 AM
It's probably inflated numbers from a crusade, or multiple crusades.  The fleets are supposed to fly back when they're done, but I guess the AI is too ADHD to ever make it back.  I already made crusade numbers not as crazy, but I'll make it a surer thing by forcing them to beeline home rather than fight on the way back -- non-crusade numbers should be more like 15 fleets, not 80.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Sabaton on December 13, 2015, 05:00:10 AM
I've got a real problem.  These guys are just flipping everywhere.  I see 1-2 fleets onscreen at any given time.  There are usually 4 hanging out in hyperspace around every system killing everything.  And at least 4 in each system killing everything.  I can't do the commission thing from SS+ because these guys are hostile to everyone and are everywhere and instantly kill me (My hammerhead was creamed by 5 missiles before they even came onscreen.).  "Pirate Armadas" consist of a few frigates because of all the Templars destroying things.  Trade is disrupted in every market constantly because Templars.


Sounds fun, I guess everything is going according to their plan.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Cik on December 13, 2015, 05:10:50 AM
yeah man i don't even install this mod because of that

why complain about the templars burning the entire sector to the ground, isn't that what you signed up for when you hit the install button?

sincerely, puzzled
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Jude on December 13, 2015, 10:13:08 AM
I actually kind of like them being everywhere.

I play with Nexerelin so it's probably a lot different, but back in 0.65 they would usually get completely wiped out before I had the chance to fight them at all. Now they're a constant threat (And opportunity, what with the expanded battles).
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 13, 2015, 10:13:35 AM
well, having a fleet or two in nearly every system that could easily catch you off guard and kill you instantly...  ::)

Don't get me wrong, i have the mod installed. its just a pain when the crusade system has barely any more than any other system normally.

Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Jude on December 13, 2015, 10:21:35 AM
Maybe I'm just overlooking the problem because months later I'm still caught up on the fact that the boss faction is literally Knights Templar In Space.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Gezzaman on December 14, 2015, 09:25:43 PM
Dunno if it is a bug or not but a fleet of 2 Archbishops and many Teuton wings SHOULD NOT fly at burn 10+ without burn drive on...

Impossible to win the fight since u get insta bombarded with clarents the moment you step into the fight. And good luck defeating 2 archbishops with what's left of your fleet
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Nanao-kun on December 14, 2015, 09:49:53 PM
Dunno if it is a bug or not but a fleet of 2 Archbishops and many Teuton wings SHOULD NOT fly at burn 10+ without burn drive on...

Impossible to win the fight since u get insta bombarded with clarents the moment you step into the fight. And good luck defeating 2 archbishops with what's left of your fleet
I just took a look at the ship values, and the Archbishop has a burn speed of 7. Are you sure it wasn't using emergency burn?
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Weltall on December 15, 2015, 04:02:39 PM
I really want to ask something; Are the Templar beatable? I have to admit that whenever I see them around me, they are destroying much larger fleets and fighting along them, I have to say they are as scary as cool looking. I can't say I fear them as much as I am filled with reverence for them.



Afar from that, are they not meant to be "friendly" towards others? I managed to raise my relationship with them to cooperative and when I tried to open a trade window, that game hang. I am on Nex and SS+ too.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 15, 2015, 04:34:38 PM
I really want to ask something; Are the Templar beatable? I have to admit that whenever I see them around me, they are destroying much larger fleets and fighting along them, I have to say they are as scary as cool looking. I can't say I fear them as much as I am filled with reverence for them.



Afar from that, are they not meant to be "friendly" towards others? I managed to raise my relationship with them to cooperative and when I tried to open a trade window, that game hang. I am on Nex and SS+ too.

Must be a nex issue; their market works fine outside of nex.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 15, 2015, 05:20:54 PM
I know a few tricks when fighting some of the fair sized Templar fleets. i have a DA battleship that can fight the Templar cruisers effectively, and crush their frigates. the carriers i have a hard time against though, i cant shoot the carrier and tank missiles at the same time  :'(

What i want to know is what the heck do i have to bring into Ascalon to invade it  ??? [ nexerelin ]
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Weltall on December 15, 2015, 05:33:31 PM
I know a few tricks when fighting some of the fair sized Templar fleets. i have a DA battleship that can fight the Templar cruisers effectively, and crush their frigates. the carriers i have a hard time against though, i cant shoot the carrier and tank missiles at the same time  :'(

What i want to know is what the heck do i have to bring into Ascalon to invade it  ??? [ nexerelin ]

The first think that comes it me is... the intergalactic pope.. Maybe he can make them stand down?.. In my first play on a random map (0.65.2) on Nexerelin they were the first faction to fall. Now that I play Corvus mode.. I wonder how the heck whoever did it, managed to do it. Back then I thought SCY were tough.. yeah..
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 15, 2015, 06:01:45 PM
Funny enough, my backup plan for taking out small Templar fleets are SCY cruisers!
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Weltall on December 15, 2015, 06:10:49 PM
One of my my favorite ships was from SCY. It was a manticore MIRV that I boarded and.. ahhh those nice free MIRV Torpedoes...With that said, the only other ship I ever tried was the armored Erymanthian Boar, that I did not like because eventally the Spinal Missile Launcher would eventually run out of missiles T_T

But the Templar.. they just come up your face and are like "You must be cleansed!"



I tried another market and it worked just fine. I think that specific one in Ratatosk did not like me. *looks at an Archbishop and it's tiny 860000 price* ... I feel if I will buy that.. the message "Congratulations you win!" will pop up.. and yet.. those fighters...Argh even if all the prices are crazy, they feel so "low" for these ship. :D
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 16, 2015, 04:03:44 PM
I paid 760k for a Templar cruiser on the Freeport station in Acheron  8)

TOTALLLY WORTH IT.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Weltall on December 16, 2015, 04:17:31 PM
I paid 760k for a Templar cruiser on the Freeport station in Acheron  8)

TOTALLLY WORTH IT.

They are cheap.. but the problem is.. I know as soon as I add them one in my fleet, the game will turn to easy mode XD I did buy though 2 Longinus Heavy Lasers for my Victory.. just two of them make me feel so powerful.. XD
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 16, 2015, 04:38:03 PM
The problem is that Templar weapons are great against their own ships ships. so if you take a Templar ship into a fight against another, the battle usually ends in an epic dual reactor explosion  :D
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 16, 2015, 08:14:13 PM
uhh, just noticed something really annoying. when a templar ship is out of armor and you hit it with a beam the sound effect for hull taking damage repeats at an insane speed.

And in my current nexerelin playthrough the imperium launched a siege on Ascalon. they not only made it there, but i was able to travel there myself and found templar fleets being annilated. maybe i should have allied with them instead of the TRI-Tachyon x.x
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 16, 2015, 08:19:26 PM
Vanilla problem with all ships that repair hull over time.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Snrasha on December 17, 2015, 06:04:09 AM
Ah ah, i have win a fight against templar! I am so happy!
Spoiler
(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/944564screenshot013.png) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=944564screenshot013.png)
After, templar have use templar cruiser and one shoot(4 homing nuke) my three ships... sniff. (Already my ship have no shield, so destroy one ship with my six ships, i am glad)
[close]


I love your mod, do not nerf this ships '.' , for me, this is a dangerous faction where we need never engage with.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Weltall on December 17, 2015, 06:36:44 AM
I have decided that as soon in a game I will reach level 100, I will battle any Templar I see.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: ValkyriaL on December 17, 2015, 05:14:39 PM
Im pretty sure reaching lvl 100 (wihtout cheating) would take you several weeks of playing.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Weltall on December 17, 2015, 05:31:04 PM
Im pretty sure reaching lvl 100 (wihtout cheating) would take you several weeks of playing.

I am more like betting my hopes of it being impossible actually..
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on December 17, 2015, 08:06:27 PM
Im pretty sure reaching lvl 100 (wihtout cheating) would take you several weeks of playing.
I am more like betting my hopes of it being impossible actually..
It isn't. My highest level character has been around 112. You can blame save transfer for that
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 19, 2015, 06:53:46 PM
Here is quite the bug: Templar ships won't attack you if the transponder is off and they haven't seen you recently. they also wont attack you even if you are in their home system.

The Nexerelin planetary defense fleet also didn't launch, and only two out of 3 saboteurs made it through.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 19, 2015, 07:06:06 PM
Not my problem.  Talk to Histidine about that; I tested it just now by setting my rep to -100 with them and warping to Antioch with transponder off, and they tripped over themselves trying to get to me.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 19, 2015, 07:09:14 PM
alright, its posted there too.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 19, 2015, 07:21:40 PM
Did another test with starsector + and without nexerelin. same bug as before.

Except now, when i am actually in the system, they approach me and yell at me but let me leave unharmed. their fleet displays "hunting your fleet down" as what they are doing.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Gezzaman on December 20, 2015, 02:43:32 PM
Dunno if it is a bug or not but a fleet of 2 Archbishops and many Teuton wings SHOULD NOT fly at burn 10+ without burn drive on...

Impossible to win the fight since u get insta bombarded with clarents the moment you step into the fight. And good luck defeating 2 archbishops with what's left of your fleet
I just took a look at the ship values, and the Archbishop has a burn speed of 7. Are you sure it wasn't using emergency burn?

there is a thread on General Discussion about it

http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10306.0

some other people have experienced the same thing.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Ceebees on December 20, 2015, 08:31:55 PM
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/yBudxGM.png)
[close]

Warmly waiting for that next version that helps them focus post-crusade.

Very warmly. Under this Longinus beam. Some things may be on fire.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Weltall on December 20, 2015, 08:52:36 PM
I am glad in my Nexerelin Corvus play, They were the only faction that liked me always and in the end took over the galaxy with me :D
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 20, 2015, 08:57:00 PM
I am glad in my Nexerelin Corvus play, They were the only faction that liked me always and in the end took over the galaxy with me :D

friends with the Templar!? those are my ENEMIES! [ raises shields and activates point defense systems ]
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Blaze on December 21, 2015, 06:20:16 AM
There seems to be some weird interaction between the gravity drones the Archbishop uses and the Paragon's fortress shield system.

Every now and then it causes my game to lock up and I have to force-close it via task manager.

The only thing that shows up in the log are some things about AI War's gravity plugins, but there aren't any Spire ships in there; I'm guessing the log isn't properly updated since the game freezes.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: valefore on December 21, 2015, 08:32:30 AM
Quote
Every now and then it causes my game to lock up and I have to force-close it via task manager.

I also get the same problem when fighting templars. I have not tried the issue with only Templar enabled though... so not sure if the cuase is by templar only or by conflicts with other mods.
Almost thought it was only me haha.
I also get nothing in my log except the game loading my flagship bgm.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Galwail on December 21, 2015, 09:55:11 AM
This mod is insane! I really enjoy fighting against these guys and the fact that their home world is just next to the Tri-Tachyon core worlds is evil (my chosen Nexerim faction). Is it ok that I can sometimes buy the absurdly overpowered Teuton fighter wing on the Tri-Tachyon military market, or is it a bug caused by some other mod?
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Weltall on December 21, 2015, 10:38:17 AM
This mod is insane! I really enjoy fighting against these guys and the fact that their home world is just next to the Tri-Tachyon core worlds is evil (my chosen Nexerim faction). Is it ok that I can sometimes buy the absurdly overpowered Teuton fighter wing on the Tri-Tachyon military market, or is it a bug caused by some other mod?

Whaaaaaaat? Teuton Fighters overpowered? Those tiny little, puny *a Teuton fighter wing passes and destroys his destroyer in seconds* ... ... ... uhmmm.. what was I saying?

Oh yeah..I am pretty sure no Templar stuff should appear in open or military markets of other factions. If anything, I never seen anything of theirs even in black markets.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Nanao-kun on December 21, 2015, 10:47:39 AM
I occasionally find small Templar weapons in Military and Black Markets. Nothing other than small weapons though, like Single Clarents, Secaces, and Rhon Lasers. On very rare occasion, I'll find a Teuton on the black market.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 21, 2015, 10:56:34 AM
i should start checking the black market then! i would love to find one of those... for... experimental reasons.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: KopiG on December 21, 2015, 11:13:05 AM
Okay I just installed and started using most of the mods recommended for SS+. These dudes are fking crazy. Its like they are on cracks using mini nuke launchers. They are absolutely crazy. Thank you for this amazing mod and challange! I cant beat them yet.... any advice? I got 1 Paragon 3 Sunder(U) 2 Archers 3 Fighter WIngs 1 Fast Carrier. Even a smaller detachment gives me trouble and usually big losses. THESE DUDES ARE FKIN CRAZY. Feels like borderline cheating :D
I dont see them having any base tho. Can you befriend them somehow? Buy stuffs from them? Or only boarding by a very small chance?
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 21, 2015, 11:22:34 AM
A paragon should be pretty good, but you need some seriously good point defense to stop their missiles. you know the guardian PD from vanilla? if you can get one of those on each side it will stop most of their missiles. other than that you need extreme firepower to knock em dead!

oh, and good luck fighting the carriers. those things regenerate missiles.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Galwail on December 21, 2015, 11:33:18 AM
I am also using a paragon. Face-tanking missiles and other high damage attacks with the fortress shield and hitting them with assault weapons when they are vulnerable works quite well. I do not dare deploy any smaller ships, they just get wrecked  ;D
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Weltall on December 21, 2015, 11:41:32 AM
I never managed to like the paragon. It just does not look good in my eyes, even if it is a moving block (circlular block) of death, in a way. I love Conquest from Vanilla and since SS+ mention... sweet... VICTORY! Even the crappy Onslaught (lol.. did I call the monster crappy?) seems better than Paragon to me. But I love sunders. My favorite sunders are the new SS+ armored sunders... especially the XIV ones. THe XIV sunder must be one of the handful ships I use unstable injector to make it faster.

I loved sunder from when only the vanilla naked version was around.. having it armored up.. is just... AWESOME!
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Ranakastrasz on December 21, 2015, 11:44:38 AM
Sunders are always glorious. I generally try to get them as quickly as is economically feasible, assuming they are available. The massive firepower and powerful shields (which are easy to make into a full bubble) make them rather durable early on as well.

----

What does the lesser... Energy burst do? There doesn't seem to be much detail anywhere, either on tooltip or on the OP.
The greater one seems to release lightning arcs, dealing (presumably) energy and EMP damage, scaled by current flux, and produces some hard flux. Also is technically a short-duration phase-shift.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 21, 2015, 11:50:18 AM
i think the smaller blast only shoots out one lightning bolt, instead of a huge AOE explosion. so it only hits one ship, but it still hurts.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: KopiG on December 21, 2015, 11:52:58 AM
Btw why isnt there a Large version of the Longinus Heavy Laser? A bit misleading that its a medium slot as well. Shouldnt a Large version exist as well?
Also do these Templars have any base? Can I buy stuffs from them? Otherwise whats the point in getting allied with them while the whole galaxy hates you?
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 21, 2015, 01:36:38 PM
the Ascalon planet in the Antioch system is there their base is. sells Templar ships/equipment and anything else you would need. they won't let you dock unless you are on good terms with them, though.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Weltall on December 21, 2015, 02:49:07 PM
 still find it awesome how I mounted two medium beam weapons on my Victory... and they made me feel overpowered.. I held back because I knew if i got more.. I would just tear through everything.. On my next gameplay though I am going to get a Paladin. I do wonder how it feels to move forward wreaking havoc.. XD
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: KopiG on December 21, 2015, 03:38:59 PM
the Ascalon planet in the Antioch system is there their base is. sells Templar ships/equipment and anything else you would need. they won't let you dock unless you are on good terms with them, though.
There is no such system for me displaying..... what can be the problem? Obviously I am using them mod. Do I need a "support" mod for that new system?
EDIT: Okay nvm I found it. Im almost always using the intel map and forgot the "normal" map (using Tab). The intel map does not show it btw! Future enhancement perhaps? Also the events display very funny when an event happens there. Puts the event on the right top corner.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: TrashMan on December 21, 2015, 04:19:04 PM
Wow...the into in the first post wasn't kidding when it called this faction OP.
they have weakenses, but also systems/upgrades that mostly nullify them.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Ranakastrasz on December 21, 2015, 07:09:00 PM
Btw why isnt there a Large version of the Longinus Heavy Laser? A bit misleading that its a medium slot as well. Shouldnt a Large version exist as well?
What? Isn't a starship scale Lightsaber enough?
Besides, force crystals don't come in a large enough size.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Ranakastrasz on December 22, 2015, 01:38:10 PM
I looked at the lattice shield script, and I have to ask, Does it malfunction if you damage control 10, meaning regeneration? Actually, since templar ships regenerate themselves, how is that handled?
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: StarSchulz on December 22, 2015, 02:34:13 PM
i think i have noticed sometimes i regenerate to 50%, and sometimes to 75%.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 22, 2015, 04:03:33 PM
I looked at the lattice shield script, and I have to ask, Does it malfunction if you damage control 10, meaning regeneration? Actually, since templar ships regenerate themselves, how is that handled?
It makes the shield slightly stronger.  It's not by enough of a margin to actually cause a noticeable effect; hull regen per frame, if you include Damage Control 10 and the Templars' normal regeneration, is something like 1.5 per frame.  Even the weakest weapon will do far more than that in one frame.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Ranakastrasz on December 22, 2015, 04:21:53 PM
I looked at the lattice shield script, and I have to ask, Does it malfunction if you damage control 10, meaning regeneration? Actually, since templar ships regenerate themselves, how is that handled?
It makes the shield slightly stronger.  It's not by enough of a margin to actually cause a noticeable effect; hull regen per frame, if you include Damage Control 10 and the Templars' normal regeneration, is something like 1.5 per frame.  Even the weakest weapon will do far more than that in one frame.
Not what I meant. According to the code, from my understanding, it looks at the hull and armor values and compares it to what it was last tick. That could well be negative in the case of regeneration, which seems like it would break something.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 22, 2015, 05:11:36 PM
I looked at the lattice shield script, and I have to ask, Does it malfunction if you damage control 10, meaning regeneration? Actually, since templar ships regenerate themselves, how is that handled?
It makes the shield slightly stronger.  It's not by enough of a margin to actually cause a noticeable effect; hull regen per frame, if you include Damage Control 10 and the Templars' normal regeneration, is something like 1.5 per frame.  Even the weakest weapon will do far more than that in one frame.
Not what I meant. According to the code, from my understanding, it looks at the hull and armor values and compares it to what it was last tick. That could well be negative in the case of regeneration, which seems like it would break something.
There's a check to see that damage is > 0.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Ranakastrasz on December 22, 2015, 06:59:11 PM
Hmm. So, if damage is small enough magnitude that you are outrepairing it, then no impact is registered?
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.5b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 22, 2015, 08:39:53 PM
Correct, though the damage would have to be literally 1 or 2 hull damage.
Title: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5c
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 22, 2015, 09:40:38 PM
Yet another general update.  Solves various problems people have been having.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?k2az4zdzwd921d5)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.5c (https://www.mediafire.com/?k2az4zdzwd921d5)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.5c.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta 1.1.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Starsector+ 3.1.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Nexerelin 0.7 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0))

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.5c (December 22, 2015)
- Reduced burn speeds across the board
- Updated Crusade characteristics
- Crusades aren't as common
- Improved attack fleet target selection
- Adjusted fleet composition
- Improved Priwen Burst system indicator
- Templar fleets no longer find it amusing when the player's transponder is off
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5c
Post by: StarSchulz on December 22, 2015, 10:03:46 PM
would a holy hand grenade Templar bomber wing be too much to ask?  ::)
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5c
Post by: Gezzaman on December 23, 2015, 02:53:14 AM
would a holy hand grenade Templar bomber wing be too much to ask?  ::)

because Teuton Wing doesnt shoot enough clarents? ><!
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5c
Post by: Blaze on December 23, 2015, 03:56:29 AM
Sounds like an idea for a mod-hull.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5c
Post by: StarSchulz on December 23, 2015, 10:33:52 AM
would a holy hand grenade Templar bomber wing be too much to ask?  ::)

because Teuton Wing doesnt shoot enough clarents? ><!

Well it would only have the grenade and some point defense. i think the bomb would detonate on a delay, three seconds sounds good. i think four would be just too much.  ;)
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5c
Post by: Weltall on December 23, 2015, 11:14:45 AM
Well it would only have the grenade and some point defense.

I suggest, instead of point defense it will only have Holy Hand Grenades and have a couple of kamikaze fighters. The fighters will have the codename "Super Sheep".
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5c
Post by: Gezzaman on December 23, 2015, 12:56:26 PM
would a holy hand grenade Templar bomber wing be too much to ask?  ::)

because Teuton Wing doesnt shoot enough clarents? ><!

Well it would only have the grenade and some point defense. i think the bomb would detonate on a delay, three seconds sounds good. i think four would be just too much.  ;)

 I'm Getting a strong Worms reference here HAHAHA
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5c
Post by: Ryu116 on December 23, 2015, 03:06:21 PM
would a holy hand grenade Templar bomber wing be too much to ask?  ::)

How about unguided torpedo (or guided version) with holy grenade warhead? Holy grenade torpedo would only have one ammo and after hitting target, holy grenade torpedo would take 3 seconds to explode that would shake whole map.  Holy torpedo would be only available to player for over million credit (As stated) or higher price, so it would be so difficult to obtain.  HGT (short for Holy Grenade Torpedo) also have very strict requirement when meeting certain conditions, in order to be worthy of receiving from the highest order of Templar.

Just an idea for humor feature in this epic mod.

:)
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5c
Post by: StarSchulz on December 23, 2015, 04:40:07 PM
So far in the current game every crusade has ended with zero casualties on each side, not sure what is going on.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5c
Post by: Weltall on December 23, 2015, 04:57:16 PM
So far in the current game every crusade has ended with zero casualties on each side, not sure what is going on.

It turned from a bloodthirsty crusade to a bloodless one. The pope goes forth and turned the enemy to Catholics and the war has not casualties. That and some footage of what a single Paladin can do, must be quite the good reason to surrender XD
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5c
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 23, 2015, 05:24:13 PM
Yeah, the transponder AI "fix" broke crusades.  I'm unsure as to what I can do at this point.  They're pretty much *** either way.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5c
Post by: StarSchulz on December 23, 2015, 07:39:02 PM
x.x
Title: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 23, 2015, 11:40:56 PM
A try at fixing Crusades.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?dpa6y41krdaudo1)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.5d (https://www.mediafire.com/?dpa6y41krdaudo1)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.5d.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta 1.1.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0))
(Supported by Starsector+ 3.1.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Nexerelin 0.7 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0))

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.5d
- Crusades fixed
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: StarSchulz on December 24, 2015, 12:42:25 AM
Haven't had a crusade just yet, but you might want to check up on the details of the chance at finding a Teuton wing in a black market. so far i have three, one of them was bought from prism freeport though. just a strange observation as i have never found one before, ever.

Can confirm crusades are working.


can also confirm giving templars the gift of triple clarent spam is truly the most enjoyable thing i have ever felt.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 24, 2015, 01:23:09 AM
Haven't had a crusade just yet, but you might want to check up on the details of the chance at finding a Teuton wing in a black market. so far i have three, one of them was bought from prism freeport though. just a strange observation as i have never found one before, ever.

Can confirm crusades are working.


can also confirm giving templars the gift of triple clarent spam is truly the most enjoyable thing i have ever felt.

Yep, they can on occasion show up on the black market.  Consider yourself lucky - and beware of costs - Teutons ain't cheap.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: StarSchulz on December 24, 2015, 01:35:03 AM
I spent the money on teuton wings instead of a battlecruiser. the feeling of watching clarents chase after fleeing templar just makes all of those times when they did that to me worth it  ;D
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Taverius on December 24, 2015, 03:47:24 AM
Whoa dude, dec 24 updates. Go have a nice relaxing holiday, you deserve it :)
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Weltall on December 24, 2015, 05:08:52 AM
Agreed. Santa is coming to town soon! You better relax and wait for him XD
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: KopiG on December 24, 2015, 11:35:37 AM
Okay guys you HAVE TO try this. One Cathedral Flagship with 20 Teuton Smiter Wing. Absolutely insane. Cathedral mounted with 8 Clarent MRM Tubes + Rhon Lasers for point defense. It is NUTS. Flying missiles of apocalypse. Nothing gets close. Tho I think this might fail vs the Templars themselves because of the insane ampount of point defense they have. Works tho vs every other major faction no matter fleet size. Really does matter if its 10 ships or 100.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Weltall on December 24, 2015, 03:44:22 PM
Tho I think this might fail vs the Templars themselves because of the insane ampount of point defense they have.

Indeed it might fail, but like StarSchulz said, the best weapons against the Templar are their own weapons. Who knows.. maybe they will regret sharing their weapons with anyone by their own faction members XD
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Snrasha on December 24, 2015, 04:10:10 PM
I have better, Weltall, if templar fleet attack you, for each frigate , you take 3 enforcers SO, if destroyer, you take 6, if cruiser, you take 9 enforcers SO, if capitalship,  give 3 nuke(One nuke is not enough).
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Megas on December 24, 2015, 04:23:18 PM
Okay guys you HAVE TO try this. One Cathedral Flagship with 20 Teuton Smiter Wing. Absolutely insane. Cathedral mounted with 8 Clarent MRM Tubes + Rhon Lasers for point defense. It is NUTS. Flying missiles of apocalypse. Nothing gets close. Tho I think this might fail vs the Templars themselves because of the insane ampount of point defense they have. Works tho vs every other major faction no matter fleet size. Really does matter if its 10 ships or 100.
It was even better when Smiters had three instead of two fighters.  Smiters did all of the work while carriers (did not matter what they were, Condor and Gemini were good enough) hid away.  Only weakness was the supplies the hungry Smiters ate.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: KopiG on December 24, 2015, 05:48:37 PM
I must say tho that even with all these faction mods and SS+ the best Energy weapon is still the Autopulse Laser. That burst dmg is just insane. Nothing compares.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: martinw on December 25, 2015, 01:28:32 PM
Although a awesome mod with great looking effects and sounds, god damm their ships are powerfull. My fleet of all sorts of death was wiped out by a carrier and some smaller support ships. Couldnt get trough their special shield no matter what I threw at it :/ There is a giant gap between their ships and whatever is out there in other mods atm.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Weltall on December 25, 2015, 02:18:52 PM
Indeed, they are a faction to be feared and to be overpowered and hated by all faction, while it of course hates all factions. Their weapons are highly destructive, with drawback being them needing a lot of Ordnance Points and they use a lot of flux. Of course their ship are made to be able to handle that and be overpowered like their weapons.

If anything they are a slow painful death. The larger ships of their are really show, although Paladin does has a dash attack (I really wanted to call it that). But I know after fighting them, that in battles with them I should not take anything but cruisers and capital ships, that of course are badass.

But this faction is made for one reason "To annihilate anything that gets close to them."

Amusingly enough in 0.65.2a in the handful of playthrough I had with Nexerelin, they were one of the first factions to get destroyed, thus I never met them until I played a modded 0.7.1a game... I was glad I did not meet them before XD
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: StarSchulz on December 25, 2015, 03:48:16 PM
Finding those Teuton wings in the old save file certainly couldn't have been a coincidence, as i have been noticing more Templar equipment used in standard fleets. SS+ fleets.

Examples being in just a few fights i noticed a Blackrock fleet had a Jesuit, and the last Tri-Tachyon fleet i fought had an Alastor equipped with a single Clarent mrm. am i just the luckiest dude ever, or have they become more common? not saying it is a bad thing, but it certainly scared me shitless and i started having flashbacks when the Clarent came screaming at me in my Scythe.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: TaLaR on December 26, 2015, 10:40:04 PM
Continuous weapons (beams and storm needler) do not autofire consistently against templar ships, which greatly lowers their efficiency. I'm not talking about invulnerable moment slightly before priwen burst, they just pause fire like once per second. (0.9.5d)
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Blaank on December 27, 2015, 12:07:36 AM
Mayorate Del Archziel fit with two Roland Systems is the most OP thing.  Dirt cheap to deploy and can take out fleets by itself and even those giant hubships.  Most OP thing is SCY Nemian Lion with 3 Roland Systems.

You may want to consider more strict fitting to Templar ships because anything with a large missile slot has become a game winner without the deployment costs of the pally.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 27, 2015, 02:57:13 AM
Continuous weapons (beams and storm needler) do not autofire consistently against templar ships, which greatly lowers their efficiency. I'm not talking about invulnerable moment slightly before priwen burst, they just pause fire like once per second. (0.9.5d)

That's because they use phase-triggered systems.  I'll probably have to do a major rewrite specifically to fix this.

Until then, fight Martyrs and Teutons.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on December 27, 2015, 03:08:29 AM
You may want to consider more strict fitting to Templar ships because anything with a large missile slot has become a game winner without the deployment costs of the pally.

There is basically nothing I can do about this.  Huge flux cost to fire?  Still probably wouldn't be enough.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: TaLaR on December 27, 2015, 03:15:15 AM
Continuous weapons (beams and storm needler) do not autofire consistently against templar ships, which greatly lowers their efficiency. I'm not talking about invulnerable moment slightly before priwen burst, they just pause fire like once per second. (0.9.5d)

That's because they use phase-triggered systems.  I'll probably have to do a major rewrite specifically to fix this.

Until then, fight Martyrs and Teutons.

After trying to pilot a templar ship myself, I see that merely trying to use uncharged priwen burst interrupts beams. Martyrs and Teutons don't cause this problem.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: KopiG on January 03, 2016, 04:20:26 AM
A Large version of the Longinus Laser please which can compete with the Autopulse laser :)
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: TaLaR on January 03, 2016, 05:43:36 AM
A Large version of the Longinus Laser please which can compete with the Autopulse laser :)

Single medium version is already enough to create no fighers/frigates allowed zone around your ship.
No reason to take any more though, since it's an inefficient soft flux hog and can't be used as primary weapon.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: KopiG on January 03, 2016, 07:41:25 AM
A Large version of the Longinus Laser please which can compete with the Autopulse laser :)

Single medium version is already enough to create no fighers/frigates allowed zone around your ship.
No reason to take any more though, since it's an inefficient soft flux hog and can't be used as primary weapon.
I still want a large version of it :)
Other topic: Shouldnt you comission to get the best Templar ships/weapons? Feels a bit cheating to just massacre everybody at a Holy Crusade and get rep that way. I mean really everybody should hate you when you get your hands on those ships AND weapons (like how every other major faction military market work).

-Hey where did you get those new shiny weapons and ships?
-Oh nowhere special Im just best buddies with the Templars and sold me some stuff. I like you guys too tho no worries.
-WHAAAT? You are buddies with the Templars who massacre everybody in the sector? Die die die.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Spoorthuzad on January 03, 2016, 07:47:22 AM
-Hey where did you get those new shiny weapons and ships?
-Oh nowhere special Im just best buddies with the Templars and sold me some stuff. I like you guys too tho no worries.
-WHAAAT? You are buddies with the Templars who massacre everybody in the sector? Die die die.

Well unless you captured the ships.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: KopiG on January 03, 2016, 11:56:17 AM
-Hey where did you get those new shiny weapons and ships?
-Oh nowhere special Im just best buddies with the Templars and sold me some stuff. I like you guys too tho no worries.
-WHAAAT? You are buddies with the Templars who massacre everybody in the sector? Die die die.

Well unless you captured the ships.
Capturing and salvaging equipment is fine. As I said in my little dialogue buying them without any repercussion is the problem imo.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Spoorthuzad on January 03, 2016, 11:58:36 AM
-Hey where did you get those new shiny weapons and ships?
-Oh nowhere special Im just best buddies with the Templars and sold me some stuff. I like you guys too tho no worries.
-WHAAAT? You are buddies with the Templars who massacre everybody in the sector? Die die die.

Well unless you captured the ships.
Capturing and salvaging equipment is fine. As I said in my little dialogue buying them without any repercussion is the problem imo.

yeah, I read that wrong. my bad!
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: StarSchulz on January 03, 2016, 12:38:03 PM
I love capturing their ships. haven't managed to capture a carrier though, ever, even though they are relatively easy for me to destroy when i am prepared. [ i am totally suggesting you buff them in some way ]
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 03, 2016, 03:22:03 PM
Other topic: Shouldnt you comission to get the best Templar ships/weapons? Feels a bit cheating to just massacre everybody at a Holy Crusade and get rep that way. I mean really everybody should hate you when you get your hands on those ships AND weapons (like how every other major faction military market work).

-Hey where did you get those new shiny weapons and ships?
-Oh nowhere special Im just best buddies with the Templars and sold me some stuff. I like you guys too tho no worries.
-WHAAAT? You are buddies with the Templars who massacre everybody in the sector? Die die die.

Massacring everyone in a crusade tends to drop your rep really quickly.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Gezzaman on January 03, 2016, 04:32:42 PM
I love capturing their ships. haven't managed to capture a carrier though, ever, even though they are relatively easy for me to destroy when i am prepared. [ i am totally suggesting you buff them in some way ]

A ship full of heavy maulers totally wreck ANY Templar ship
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: StarSchulz on January 03, 2016, 05:43:30 PM
I usually use Gauss cannons.

I guess what i realize is that the skill tree makes Templar ships a breeze when you have it all and a reasonable ship. Armor in general is pretty weak compared to normal shields, So once you make a crack and shoot that spot any ship falls. Especially in the case of the carrier, where if you shoot the very front of it repeatedly enough it will just crumble. I was able to kite it and destroy it once in a frigate but i can't remember which one.

Does the AI know when it's armor is destroyed, and to turn that armor away from the enemy?
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: SpacePoliticianAndaZealot on January 04, 2016, 02:18:52 AM
I usually use Gauss cannons.

I guess what i realize is that the skill tree makes Templar ships a breeze when you have it all and a reasonable ship. Armor in general is pretty weak compared to normal shields, So once you make a crack and shoot that spot any ship falls. Especially in the case of the carrier, where if you shoot the very front of it repeatedly enough it will just crumble. I was able to kite it and destroy it once in a frigate but i can't remember which one.

Does the AI know when it's armor is destroyed, and to turn that armor away from the enemy?
I've noticed that behaviour with all phase cloaking ships, and since all Templar ships are technically such...
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Schwartz on January 07, 2016, 12:04:17 AM
I worked my way up with Tachyon Lances and Blasters this time around. Never been a fan of explosive against Templars. It's usually HVDs or Shard weaponry. The Energy lineup is also fairly forgiving against them.

The easiest way to get a foothold are actually Clarent Tubes and ROLANDs. Even if you have to make sacrifices to fit these, they'll kill smaller Templar ships before they even reach visible range. Might not be the worst idea to give the various Clarents a flux cost just so there's some small disadvantage to fitting these on non-Templar ships.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Taverius on January 07, 2016, 02:15:18 AM
Clarent Tubes are not that much of an issue tbh, its just the Roland systems - scaling up to 4x the dps and 4x the ammo is a bit much for a M->L missile upgrade.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Unbroken on January 07, 2016, 08:59:45 AM
Clarent Tubes are not that much of an issue tbh, its just the Roland systems - scaling up to 4x the dps and 4x the ammo is a bit much for a M->L missile upgrade.

This. So much this.

Clarents by themselves are only very dangerous to frigates, namely ones that rely heavily on maneuver or specialized ship systems to survive like Wolves, Hyperions, Tempests, Imaginoses, etc. as a single Clarent strike on the ship itself is (99% of the time) an instant kill. When fighting the Templars, I will never deploy any frigates I own - especially Tempests - since they are guarenteed to get smoked by a Clarent at some point during the battle. The only time Clarents become a serious problem is when you spot 2+ Teuton Smiter wings with an Archbishop, since they'll constantly rearm and spam you to death.

The ROLAND, on the other hand, is a harbinger of destruction. In my last Nexerelin playthrough as the Mayorate, I went out of my way to go ROLAND farming to put together a Del Azarchel with two of these + a Clarent tube, expanded racks & ECCM, after using the console to test the design out. With missile spec, you get 15 shots from both racks and with the ship's Fast Missile Racks, even the AI can fire them at an unholy rate. When it's dry, it'll still autoload at a little under one shot/minute. Each volley deals something like 25k damage with the correct officer skillset, and it is effectively unavoidable for most ships. It's also very difficult to kill that cruiser, given the ROLAND's absurd range and my habit of positioning artillery ships well away from the front. All of that comes in a package that has a deployment cost of 18, with combat aptitude 10.

All I can say is, the game basically ended once I had that thing operational. Battles where I was fighting two or even three very large enemy fleets at once were largely trivial, given how many ships would get vaporized during each volley; although the AI doesn't use its ammo as well as I'd like, there often wasn't a lot of overkill going on, so leftover Clarents often find new targets and either overload or kill them outright. Only once the Del Azarchel had run out of ammo did the tempo of the fighting slow down, but by then winning the battle is only a matter of cleaning up.

Even against the Templars themselves, it was funny how quickly the ROLANDs overwhelm a Paladin or an Archbishop by driving its flux through the roof and punching gaping holes in its armor, leaving it an easy target for me to finish off - assuming another volley doesn't kill it first. Crusaders get seriously gimped if they eat a full barrage, while Jesuits and Martyrs straight-up die.

I'd suggest reducing the ROLAND's range, slightly slowing the initial missile, and having it spawn only three Clarents instead of four. E: Just noticed the unreleased patch notes giving these big flux costs to fire - will have to see how it affects things.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 07, 2016, 09:54:18 AM
There are some changes to the weapon, but...

I'd suggest reducing the ROLAND's range,

To what?  As far as your concerns go, even the bog standard Clarent's relatively short range is enough to kill everybody, since it's longer than any ballistic/energy weapon.

and having it spawn only three Clarents instead of four.

From the point of view of Templar ships, that would make the ROLAND straight-up worse than the other large weapons in a major way.  I'd honestly rather remove the weapon completely than do that; there's a reason I changed it to four in the first place.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Taverius on January 07, 2016, 10:37:27 AM
I guess there's the option to drop the submunition count but increase the total ammo to keep the final clarent count invariant, but that would change the tactical considerations going up against templars in a significant way. Either that or drop the submunition count by 2 but increase the ammo and RoF by 2.

I hope the flux cost works out for you!
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Megas on January 07, 2016, 10:39:34 AM
When I played Templars, using ROLAND instead of other Templar heavy weapons meant get your damage now instead of later.  It was fun watching things die now, but then when it was time to slog through the rest of the enemy fleet, I missed the firepower (and pseudo-PD in case of Juger) other large Templar weapons gave.  Regenerating Clarents meant mounting ROLAND was not a waste of OP once it was spent, but I generally prefer higher sustained DPS of other weapons.  What ROLAND is great for is greatly powering up Conquest, Astral, and other ships whose biggest mount is a missile.  Astral morphs from a punching bag to a nightmare.

If I want to abuse Clarents, I would use carrier and Smiter wings.  I have not tried this in 0.7 since Smiters are two per wing.  Then again, I can probably use more wings than before now that Logistics has been done away with.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: KopiG on January 07, 2016, 10:48:11 AM
When I played Templars, using ROLAND instead of other Templar heavy weapons meant get your damage now instead of later.  It was fun watching things die now, but then when it was time to slog through the rest of the enemy fleet, I missed the firepower (and pseudo-PD in case of Juger) other large Templar weapons gave.  Regenerating Clarents meant mounting ROLAND was not a waste of OP once it was spent, but I generally prefer higher sustained DPS of other weapons.  What ROLAND is great for is greatly powering up Conquest, Astral, and other ships whose biggest mount is a missile.  Astral morphs from a punching bag to a nightmare.

If I want to abuse Clarents, I would use carrier and Smiter wings.  I have not tried this in 0.7 since Smiters are two per wing.  Then again, I can probably use more wings than before now that Logistics has been done away with.
I can tell you from personal experience that a Cathedral ship + like 20 smiter wings is a godlike fleet :) Nothing can touch them. Truly nothing :) Also IMO leave ROLAND as it is just give me a large version of the Longinus Heavy Laser :P
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Schwartz on January 07, 2016, 10:52:43 AM
I wouldn't want to see either of them removed tbh. They're powerful and fun to use. What they need though is another downside that isn't OP - they already cost a fair amount to fit. I think a 3-split ROLAND wouldn't be that bad at all. Still worth it. You can't 1:1 compare it to the other heavy Templar weapons because it's a missile system and those have intrinsic advantages. Hell, even a 3-split and flux cost on top would still be 'in line' for what you're getting out of them. Slower fire rate might be another thing.

Arondight, Juger or Joyeuse are all powerful but none of them can reduce enemy strength before combat even begins. All the non-missile weapons are slowed down a fair bit by Templar shields - combat as it should be. In comparison, Clarents and ROLANDs are the 'uranium bullet'. 2 Aurora/Apogee with ROLANDs in your fleet means that ALL Templar frigates will be destroyed by the time they reach visible range, and they'll make quick work of larger ships as well. Regen means that the damage is not just heavy up-front but will continue throughout combat. They leave the Aurora/Apogee with no flux impairment for the power it's wielding. The hardest part really is finding ROLANDs, for which you'll have to tough it out and fight Templar fleets for a while.

Part of the issue of course is officers with Missile Spec. As the game works right now, there are just some strategies that will excel. Missile boats tuned to the max are one such strategy, and Clarents are the best missiles. As such, this is mostly a player problem. NPC fleets don't usually use 'em like this, except for the dreaded Bishop + fighter spam.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Megas on January 07, 2016, 11:06:52 AM
I think we can compare ROLAND to other heavy weapons because the one Templar ship that can use heavy weapons (Paladin; excluding the Pope bonus boss) has a large universal.  Considering lore, I doubt Templars intentionally designed their weapons for Domain ships (the tech they want to eradicate).

Yes, ROLANDs do thin out fleets at first contact.  After that, if the remaining fleet is large enough, it is a slog without the big guns.  The other Templar heavy guns are great in some way.  Juger is the slow Doom 3-style BFG shot - pseudo PD and high-damage all-in-one.  Joyese is like a long-range super-charged TPC.  Arondight is practically unblockable stun (at least in the 0.65 days).  ROLAND simply means the first few enemy ships disappear, then you finish off the rest the enemy without additional support.  Regeneration is slow enough that its DPS is a shadow of other heavy Templar weapons.  It makes ROLAND usable after the initial fireworks are over.

Quote
I can tell you from personal experience that a Cathedral ship + like 20 smiter wings is a godlike fleet Smiley Nothing can touch them. Truly nothing Smiley Also IMO leave ROLAND as it is just give me a large version of the Longinus Heavy Laser Tongue
Back when I played Templars in 0.65, a Condor, Gemini, and as many Smiter wings as I can fit slaughtered almost everything I fought.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Schwartz on January 07, 2016, 11:26:32 AM
I don't know how big your fights are, but if you put missile racks on your ROLAND cruisers they last well throughout most reasonable fights. You get 17 shots = 68 Clarents, that's nearly 2,25 minutes of full speed spam including regen and max missile skills. Only then are you reduced to ,9 shots per minute.

I still see them pulling their weight towards the end of most mid-size encounters, like facing off against 3 Paladins, 4 destroyers and half a dozen frigates. Not to forget that officers can be opportunistic with missile shots, which theoretically increases peak time, and the burst damage is nasty. A good combo. Anyway, that's about the biggest Templar army I'd comfortably touch, considering deploy limits.

Anyway, I don't mean to nag on about the same point - there's already some changes in the pipeline. It's just been my experience that I fear those ROLANDs more than the other guns - and conversely I want them more on my ships than the other guns. They win fights.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Megas on January 07, 2016, 11:32:37 AM
I don't know how big your fights are
One of my benchmarks is if a ship can solo the entire simulator fleet.  If the ship can do that, it gets a big thumbs up.  Not many ships can do that, though most cannot because of lack of peak performance and/or firepower.

With expanded battles, it is possible for several patrols and detachments to merge into a simulator-sized fleet.

Sometimes, I put ships through the simulator meat-grinder.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Unbroken on January 07, 2016, 11:56:56 AM
Yes, ROLANDs do thin out fleets at first contact.  After that, if the remaining fleet is large enough, it is a slog without the big guns.  The other Templar heavy guns are great in some way.  Juger is the slow Doom 3-style BFG shot - pseudo PD and high-damage all-in-one.  Joyese is like a long-range super-charged TPC.  Arondight is practically unblockable stun (at least in the 0.65 days).  ROLAND simply means the first few enemy ships disappear, then you finish off the rest the enemy without additional support.  Regeneration is slow enough that its DPS is a shadow of other heavy Templar weapons.  It makes ROLAND usable after the initial fireworks are over.

I dunno - I've used the Arondight a fair bit on a Paladin I captured while I was ROLAND farming. While it gores ships that are venting or have dropped shields, I found it much less effective vs. shields, and it's unwieldly to use against targets that will take crippling damage from it (such as destroyers). It's certainly effective at blowing a big hole in capital ship armor, but aside from that + the EMP, I thought it was a bit underwhelming for the 7k flux/shot and 41 OP. I felt like it was best for giving frontline cruisers such as Eagles hell.

Part of why I found the ROLAND so game-breaking was combining it with the Fast Missile Racks system + expanded racks hullmod, along with using the best officer skills, where you can deploy a missile cruiser the AI has no hope of ever countering for peanuts, and it'll chomp ten or possibly twenty times its deploy cost in ships before being tied to the autoloader and the player does not have to fly it to gain the benefit.

As far as the AI Paladins go, I respect and am much more wary of ROLANDs than any other weapon with the possible exception of the Joyeuse at close range, however it's nowhere near as ridiculous as it can be on the right ship. It may simply be because the ROLAND is dead-easy for the AI to use well, while the AI has a harder time using the other heavy weapons as effectively in their intended context.

I'd suggest reducing the ROLAND's range,

To what?  As far as your concerns go, even the bog standard Clarent's relatively short range is enough to kill everybody, since it's longer than any ballistic/energy weapon.

I was thinking to around 3000 or 3500su. The other Clarent racks are in a good spot, since you can generally deal with the ship firing them in some manner, shoot them down or tank them on your shield at the cost of hard flux. Shieldtanking a ROLAND continuously is doable in a good ship, but you'll be in big trouble if anything else takes an interest in you as overloading is a death sentence in that situation.

Either way, the changes are made, all we can do is wait and see for ourselves once 0.9.5e is out.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Megas on January 07, 2016, 01:24:32 PM
The main use of the Arondight (when I played in 0.65) is/was to force an overload.  On a Paladin, Sentennia and Rhons were plenty enough firepower already.  Arondight was there to overload and freeze targets.  If it hits shields, flux goes up by half or more, depending on target.  If shields are down, it takes a lot of damage AND overloads too.

I usually use Arondight on Onslaught or Conquest.  Two Arondights focused on one target will overload just about anything, and it is evil.

None of the standard ships that have large missile mounts also has Fast Missile Racks.  The closest we have is Gryphon's nanoforge, and that can only be used once per fight.

If the enemy fleet is small, or if used against your solo flagship, then sure, ROLAND is devastating.  My hardest fights are those with 100+ ships (some of which are battleships), and I try to build for them.  ROLAND is great at alpha-striking, but it is less useful when I need high and steady DPS throughout a long marathon fight.

With that said, regeneration does make ROLAND competitive with other heavy Templar weapons.  If you use ROLAND instead of other Templar weapons for your heavy universal mount, you take it because you want to alpha-strike a few ships immediately and deal that damage spike now.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: KopiG on January 08, 2016, 12:08:48 AM
Thank you for making comissions in the upcoming 'e' version a must have to buy stuff. I really think this was the right call. If you want to buy from the Templars instead of salvaging you have to accept the fact that the whole sector will be hostile to you. I really like this change. I will even restart my game now to see how things will go with these changes yay!
PS: I hope ROLANDs and Clarents arent nerfed to oblivion :)
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: StarSchulz on January 08, 2016, 12:29:53 AM
Honestly i thought that the Roland system was pretty meh, unless i was setting up a ship dedicated for clarent spam. When i tried bringing it with other weapons the slow reload time just felt like i was gimping the Paladin's firepower and i prefer the Arondight Accelerator or the Crazy laser space shotgun [ don't remember the name of that ].

Something i will stand by: If the Templar's didn't have something like their Clarents, they would be far too easy to cheese.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Ced23Ric on January 08, 2016, 02:48:01 AM
I gotta say, when I loaded up my newest game last night (erry faction, plus nex, plus SS+, max systems/planets/stations, wheeee it's busy in here) and rolled with Hiigarans, I *** my pants when I realised that the planet next to mine - like, throw a rock and you're there - is occupired by the Templars. So, initially, everytime I would go home or do something around my homebase, I had to rely on the Hiigaran's superior burn speeds to avoid the ever-salty Templars.

Then they started attacking my mining and convoy fleets, so I started hopping in to assist.

It's funny. The resilience and speed of the Hiigarans combined with their relative short-range kinetic and HE heavy projectile weapons deals with the Templars rather well. At first I felt like I was the fodder placed next to the predator, but now I am starting to appreciate the constant source of XP, gear and credits. Clarents hurt, and I usually need to eat that alpha and vent, but as soon as the Clarents are out of the way, ganging up on them one by one works dandy. Since their captains lean towards aggressive, they like to come to get their beating, too, which makes it easier to deal with them.

That being said, they are probably among the most intimidating factions, which I find great. They are very flavourful and enjoyable to fight with, and even more so, against. Good job, Cycerin.

Spoiler
Now expand their fleet. ;)
[close]

[ don't remember the name of that ].
Ah, mon ami, c'est la Joyeuse Fractal Laser!
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: JohnDoe on January 08, 2016, 07:47:21 PM
I'm just waiting for a frigate with a large missile slot so I can put ROLANDs on those.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Takion Kasukedo on January 09, 2016, 06:26:58 AM
I'm just waiting for a frigate with a large missile slot so I can put ROLANDs on those.
Oh-hohohoh...

You evil bastard, you.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Starasp on January 12, 2016, 11:48:35 AM
Just put 3 ROLANDS on a Citadel Monolith with expanded racks and all those nice missile skills/ship mods, and park it a ways back from the action.

Get some quick fighters to spot for you.

Commence laughing.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Blaze on January 12, 2016, 12:39:48 PM
I'm just waiting for a frigate with a large missile slot so I can put ROLANDs on those.
Flu-X has the Necro Scab, which is just that.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Megas on January 12, 2016, 01:25:46 PM
Some feedback on Knights Templar for 0.7.1.

The new block-head portraits appear a bit silly, but admittedly matches the faction and ships' style.  The portraits where the mouth is visible remind me of Megatron from the Transformers, 80s generation one cartoon series.  (For my test game, I picked the knight with no mouth and V for eyes, and named him Morgoth.)

With Safety Override, I have a reason to use Merced Cannon, at least on a Martyr.  With Safety Override on a Martyr, I can fire dual Merced Cannons non-stop, and the 500 range is no longer a deal-breaker after Safety Override cuts the range to less.

The recent change to beam AI made Rhons (with IPDAI) better at PD.

Did Single Clarent always cost 3 OP, or did it cost more in previous builds?  At 2 OP (with Optimized Assembly perk), it is a nice alternative to the Reaper for some ships.  I still would not use dual Clarent due to high OP cost, especially if my captain has Missile Specialization 5+.

Medium Clarent tubes that regenerate are nice.  Tried them on an Odyssey, and while they are no ROLAND, the tubes are deadly and effective.  After all, they launch Clarents - enough said.

Joyese is still powerful despite reduced damage.  It is nice to no longer deal with ammo.

Had no chance to try Arondight lately yet.  Other weapons seem more or less the same as before.  Sentenia is still my go-to for medium energy weaponry.

Smiters reduced to two per wing is actually a bit of a boost, at least for a chain-battling player.  While three Smiters per wing increased alpha striking and gratuitous overkill, deploying two per wing means less CR gets used per fight, and I can deploy the same Smiter wings in more consecutive fights.  Other Teuton wings break down more quickly and I cannot deploy them as often as Smiters.

Crusader ship system is mostly worthless now.  It is only good if the ship needs to stall for time.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 12, 2016, 02:38:44 PM
The crusader is nigh invulnerable with the system on.  It's meant to be used by the AI; it's not so interesting for the player.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: ahrenjb on January 15, 2016, 09:33:06 AM
I'm running the latest version, and crusades appear to be "working", but they're kind of... Small. The most recent crusade in Sindria ended with a death toll of something like 800 templars to 3000 others. Not exactly massive fleet combat, in fact I'm not even seeing large templar fleets, even when flying around the area looking for the large fleets.

Imperium sieges on the other hand, appear to be working as intended.

UPDATE: Had another crusade, took a screenshot this time. Never saw a templar fleet with more than a single capital with some frigates and wings or a couple cruisers with the same.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Spoorthuzad on January 15, 2016, 10:51:56 AM
I'm just waiting for a frigate with a large missile slot so I can put ROLANDs on those.
Flu-X has the Necro Scab, which is just that.
Might be a problem since it only has 35 OP and the large missile weapon needs 40.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Blaze on January 15, 2016, 11:49:24 AM
I'm just waiting for a frigate with a large missile slot so I can put ROLANDs on those.
Flu-X has the Necro Scab, which is just that.
Might be a problem since it only has 35 OP and the large missile weapon needs 40.
Ordnance expert 10 knocks that down to 36, or just get +18% OP bonus to mount it.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
Post by: Gezzaman on January 16, 2016, 03:11:59 AM
The crusader is nigh invulnerable with the system on.  It's meant to be used by the AI; it's not so interesting for the player.

Crusaders used by AI is so damn good, they never die XD
Title: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 30, 2016, 06:00:34 PM
New music!  Balance changes!

Also, Priwen Burst and Almace Burst are now completely scripted and don't suffer from phase mechanics glitches.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?ac135jaxtfd8v0r)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.5e (https://www.mediafire.com/?ac135jaxtfd8v0r)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.5e.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta 1.1.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0))
(Supported by Starsector+ 3.2.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Nexerelin 0.7.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0)) (Updated!)

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.5e
- Priwen Burst and Almace Burst are now 100% scripted, and has no phase-related side-effects
- Added market music
- Templars now require a commission for buying stuff
- Lattice Shield generally buffed for capital ships
- Interdictor Beam range increased to 800 from 500
- Clarents and ROLAND now have large flux costs
- Clarent and ROLAND stats adjusted across the board
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: Ahne on January 30, 2016, 06:07:32 PM
great!
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: KopiG on January 31, 2016, 11:39:35 AM
Hello Dark Revenant,

I started a Nexerelin playthrough using Dark Templars as my starter faction. How can I start earning credits? Dark Templars dont seem to post any assasination bounties apart from what the starting station offered which is not very much.

Thank you.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: DrakonST on January 31, 2016, 11:44:50 AM
Hello Dark Revenant,

I started a Nexerelin playthrough using Dark Templars as my starter faction. How can I start earning credits? Dark Templars dont seem to post any assasination bounties apart from what the starting station offered which is not very much.

Thank you.

Use prisoners, each of them can be sold for 5 000 - 30 000. Cost depends on your level.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: Nanao-kun on January 31, 2016, 12:07:58 PM
Hello Dark Revenant,

I started a Nexerelin playthrough using Dark Templars as my starter faction. How can I start earning credits? Dark Templars dont seem to post any assasination bounties apart from what the starting station offered which is not very much.

Thank you.

Dark what?
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: grinningsphinx on January 31, 2016, 12:26:41 PM
Hello Dark Revenant,

I started a Nexerelin playthrough using Dark Templars as my starter faction. How can I start earning credits? Dark Templars dont seem to post any assasination bounties apart from what the starting station offered which is not very much.

Thank you.

Dark what?

Space Marines.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: KopiG on January 31, 2016, 12:48:27 PM
Yeah okay I mixed the author's name into the faction :P My bad :D . So I am not really sure I would like to trade. I assume prisoners are a commodity for the Knight Templars. So I would need to trade?
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: DrakonST on January 31, 2016, 01:08:27 PM
Yeah okay I mixed the author's name into the faction :P My bad :D . So I am not really sure I would like to trade. I assume prisoners are a commodity for the Knight Templars. So I would need to trade?
So that's that: To be docked to the station/planet - "Special functions" - "Prisoners action" - "collect rassom" or "Sell of slave"(x2 bonus of money and -2 reputations for all fractions in system).
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: Very Good on February 12, 2016, 02:11:51 PM
It's normal to see non templar faction have templar ship sometime?
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: Ceebees on February 12, 2016, 02:23:34 PM
With SS+, apparently yes. Just like you can capture Templar weapons and hulls with significant effort, so can AI factions, it seems.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: Very Good on February 12, 2016, 03:00:56 PM
Ah?It's not just difficulty scaling or a bug?Because i am level 44 and now everyone have jesuit/matyr.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: HELMUT on February 12, 2016, 03:34:12 PM
When you say everyone, do you mean like, every single fleet you meet? Because that would be indeed an issue. It happens to see some factions, even pirates, with an occasional looted Templar ship but it's still fairly uncommon.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: Very Good on February 12, 2016, 04:19:53 PM
Imperium fleet,ASP syndicate and tri-trachyon all had matyr/jesuit in them(+the normal ship).Bah,maybe this was random,but i have no idea templar fleet would go so far-and die to fleet weak like that-they did not launch any Crusade against them.
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: Very Good on February 18, 2016, 01:07:11 PM
The Pope archibishop explode all the time when i kill it,it's not a playable ship?
Title: Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5e
Post by: NightKev on February 20, 2016, 01:13:36 AM
The Jesuit-class ship needs to learn not to use its ship system through allied ships.
Title: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on March 01, 2016, 12:29:30 AM
Updated for 0.7.2a.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://www.mediafire.com/?ph5b5sfya47941z)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.5f (https://www.mediafire.com/?ph5b5sfya47941z)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.5f.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta 1.2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Starsector+ 3.3.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Nexerelin 0.7.4 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0)) (Compatibility update soon!)

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.5f
- Priwen Burst vulnerability time is longer
- Clarent damage reduced to 1750 from 2000
- Minor adjustments
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: Cordacc on March 10, 2016, 06:45:17 PM
I'm getting some sort of crash when fighting against knights templar fleets with allies. It only happens about 20% of the time but it seems entirely random as I'll get the crash save load, join the same fight and not get the crash.
Spoiler
24355066 [Thread-4] INFO  com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.shared.StarSystemActivityTracker  - Increasing system bounty probability for Exerelin Habitat by 7.1907176E-5, is now 0.07393646
24362056 [Thread-4] INFO  com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine  - FP1: 167, FP2: 91, maxFP1: 120, maxFP2: 80
24362316 [Thread-4] INFO  org.histidine.chatter.combat.ChatterCombatPlugin  - Chatter plugin initialized
24362324 [Thread-4] INFO  org.histidine.chatter.combat.ChatterCombatPlugin  - Assigning character pirate to officer Valentine Langley
24362330 [Thread-4] INFO  org.histidine.chatter.combat.ChatterCombatPlugin  - Assigning character ja2_fox to officer Riley Berg
24362331 [Thread-4] INFO  org.histidine.chatter.combat.ChatterCombatPlugin  - Assigning character freespace_vasudan to officer Dale Knowles
24362759 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.IllegalStateException: Zero length vector
java.lang.IllegalStateException: Zero length vector
   at org.lwjgl.util.vector.Vector.normalise(Vector.java:91)
   at data.shipsystems.scripts.TEM_SchismDriveStats.apply(TEM_SchismDriveStats.java:102)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.systems.F.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.Ship.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advanceInner(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatState.traverse(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
[close]
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on March 10, 2016, 11:22:04 PM
That seems impossible, since that would require a schisming Jesuit to somehow halt to a speed of exactly 0 during the schism, which seems impossible unless there's some weird script in a mod I don't play with.

Added a fail-safe.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: Cordacc on March 11, 2016, 12:00:20 AM
That's really weird, because it wasn't happening during combat but the moment I would load into the battle screen from clicking "take command of the action." So there certainly wan't any time for a jesuit to start schisming.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: NightKev on March 13, 2016, 01:29:28 AM
The fighters keep smashing into the carriers when trying to refit instead of being above them on the Z-axis; getting suicide charged by your own fighters isn't too great.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: Surge on March 13, 2016, 09:58:45 AM
I think it might be an issue caused by the lattice shields, I know that fighters collide with ships properly when they flameout, and the collisions make me think the same happens when the shields are up, but the Teuton can't shut off its shields so things just go weird.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on March 13, 2016, 01:03:23 PM
I fixed this a while ago, but you're going to have to wait longer still.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: Never on March 17, 2016, 11:44:16 AM
The fighters keep smashing into the carriers when trying to refit instead of being above them on the Z-axis; getting suicide charged by your own fighters isn't too great.

Yea. And what is worse the biggest carrier more dmg it causes. When u use heron they both will survive when u use capital after 5-10 kills it destroys your armor.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: djcian on March 23, 2016, 12:12:31 AM
I'm getting some sort of crash when fighting against knights templar fleets with allies. It only happens about 20% of the time but it seems entirely random as I'll get the crash save load, join the same fight and not get the crash.
Spoiler
24355066 [Thread-4] INFO  com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.shared.StarSystemActivityTracker  - Increasing system bounty probability for Exerelin Habitat by 7.1907176E-5, is now 0.07393646
24362056 [Thread-4] INFO  com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine  - FP1: 167, FP2: 91, maxFP1: 120, maxFP2: 80
24362316 [Thread-4] INFO  org.histidine.chatter.combat.ChatterCombatPlugin  - Chatter plugin initialized
24362324 [Thread-4] INFO  org.histidine.chatter.combat.ChatterCombatPlugin  - Assigning character pirate to officer Valentine Langley
24362330 [Thread-4] INFO  org.histidine.chatter.combat.ChatterCombatPlugin  - Assigning character ja2_fox to officer Riley Berg
24362331 [Thread-4] INFO  org.histidine.chatter.combat.ChatterCombatPlugin  - Assigning character freespace_vasudan to officer Dale Knowles
24362759 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.IllegalStateException: Zero length vector
java.lang.IllegalStateException: Zero length vector
   at org.lwjgl.util.vector.Vector.normalise(Vector.java:91)
   at data.shipsystems.scripts.TEM_SchismDriveStats.apply(TEM_SchismDriveStats.java:102)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.systems.F.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.Ship.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advanceInner(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatState.traverse(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
[close]



I'm getting the same error as him and its happening fairly frequently. Only mods I use are nexerelin and starsector+.  I don't want to sound rude and I appreciate what you're doing, but when are you planning on releasing Version 0.9.5g

my log:
Spoiler
167971 [Thread-10] INFO  sound.O  - Creating streaming player for music with id [tem_templarshostile.ogg]
167972 [Thread-10] INFO  sound.H  - Playing music with id [tem_templarshostile.ogg]
169753 [Thread-4] INFO  com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine  - FP1: 129, FP2: 65, maxFP1: 180, maxFP2: 120
170229 [Thread-4] INFO  sound.O  - Cleaning up music with id [miscallenous_corvus_campaign_music.ogg]
170627 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.IllegalStateException: Zero length vector
java.lang.IllegalStateException: Zero length vector
   at org.lwjgl.util.vector.Vector.normalise(Vector.java:91)
   at data.shipsystems.scripts.TEM_SchismDriveStats.apply(TEM_SchismDriveStats.java:102)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.systems.F.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.Ship.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advanceInner(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatState.traverse(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
[close]
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on March 23, 2016, 12:14:52 AM
It's fixed in the next version.  I can't give a date for release but it will be less than a week from now.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: Mr. Nobody on March 25, 2016, 05:09:46 PM
Your friendly neighbor literal nobody reporting in from somewhere in the internet.

Just recently heard a suggestion in another maybe-related site:

How much would impact balance having Templar ships get a OP discount when mounting Templars weapons while also nerfing their available OP to counteract the discount, either along or in place of the 50% flux cost reduction for weapons?

What about instead increasing the OP cost for non templar ships mounting templar weapons?

Note: this is not my suggestion, i'm merely reporting stuff from a discussion about the game happening somewhere else.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: NightKev on March 25, 2016, 07:12:14 PM
What's the point?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: Surge on March 25, 2016, 07:23:00 PM
increasing the OP cost of Templar weapons on non-Templar ships would be pointless, they're already prohibitive to mount in any appreciable volume on most ships, and decreasing the OP cost on Templar ships while nerfing their OP availability would only make the Templar ships less effective outside of Templar hands, which will just give the player even less reasons to go after them.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on March 25, 2016, 08:02:25 PM
Your friendly neighbor literal nobody reporting in from somewhere in the internet.

Just recently heard a suggestion in another maybe-related site:

How much would impact balance having Templar ships get a OP discount when mounting Templars weapons while also nerfing their available OP to counteract the discount, either along or in place of the 50% flux cost reduction for weapons?

What about instead increasing the OP cost for non templar ships mounting templar weapons?

Note: this is not my suggestion, i'm merely reporting stuff from a discussion about the game happening somewhere else.

An OP discount like that is not possible in the engine.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar FINAL
Post by: JohnDoe on April 01, 2016, 02:40:40 AM
Oooh! Me likey! :D

Spoiler
(http://mylittlepony.hasbro.com/images/spring2016/ponies/char_pinkiepie.png)
[close]
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar FINAL
Post by: Alphascrub on April 01, 2016, 02:42:29 AM
So when you say final... that mean forever? or for this patch? or other? My speculation is flying the *** handle lol.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar FINAL
Post by: ValkyriaL on April 01, 2016, 02:52:26 AM
I think when he says "Final" he means that he has gotten to the point where the mod does what he wanted the mod to accomplish, so no more content, just compatebility updates.

or am i wrong?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar FINAL
Post by: Taverius on April 01, 2016, 03:16:34 AM
Well, the date makes me a little suspicious :3
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar FINAL
Post by: ValkyriaL on April 01, 2016, 03:34:23 AM
You never know, all things must come to an end eventualy...
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar FINAL
Post by: lemski07 on April 01, 2016, 04:48:10 AM
Its april  :'( ne
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar FINAL
Post by: Surge on April 01, 2016, 10:21:48 AM
I kinda wanna see this, and I kinda don't.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar FINAL
Post by: Surge on April 01, 2016, 07:58:32 PM
You forgot to update the visuals of the Cleric and Pope, 0/10, the mod is forever tainted and ruined.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar FINAL
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 01, 2016, 08:23:38 PM
You can't improve on perfection.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: ValkyriaL on April 02, 2016, 09:05:54 AM
But you can turn perfection into a larger quantity of the same thing. ::)
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: Weltall on April 02, 2016, 11:09:29 AM
After all perfection is throned on infinity and infinity has no end! <-What?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: SpaceRiceBowl on April 02, 2016, 03:04:11 PM
So uh, was that whole Templar Final thing an April Fools joke?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: ValkyriaL on April 02, 2016, 03:19:57 PM
What? you really thought he would just up and quit and call it finished just like that? on april 1st of all things? ;D
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 02, 2016, 07:49:11 PM
I kinda like the Clarents better this way.

What, you mean green?  Or with the balance changes.
Title: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 03, 2016, 01:13:44 AM
Updated for 0.7.2a.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (http://www.mediafire.com/?esurx7jg6wc7w5w)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.5g (http://www.mediafire.com/?esurx7jg6wc7w5w)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.5g.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires ShaderLib Beta 1.2.1b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7958.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Starsector+ 3.4.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7679.0)) (Updated!)
(Supported by Nexerelin 0.7.4c (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0)) (Updated!)

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/templarShaders.json

Having problems?  Visit the Mod Troubleshooting Guide (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10931)!


Change Log
Version 0.9.5g
- Claim Victory exploit fixed
- Lattice Shield damage display numbers improved
- Ship sprites reverted back to the normal white color
- Pax Cannon range increase to 1000 from 700
- Pax Cannon now actually obeys conservation of momentum
- Clarent damage raised back to 2000, but range decreased to SRM status
- Bug fixes
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: NCMagic on April 03, 2016, 03:56:27 AM
What happened on april the 1st? Did the visuals change or something?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: isaacssv552 on April 03, 2016, 11:28:29 AM
I think Clarents were fine as 2000 damage super MRMs, especially once the flux cost was added. Of course, I like buffing the Templars armour and OP to make them more unbeatable, so my idea of an appropriate level of power may be different from others. As far as I'm concerned if I can beat a decently sized fleet of Templars without allies or Capitals they're too weak. (I currently limit myself to fleets with 1 or fewer Paladins, and no Archbishops. Anything larger stands a decent chance of obliterating my fleet.)
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Schwartz on April 03, 2016, 12:24:49 PM
- Claim Victory exploit fixed

Nnnnoooo! My shipsies!
..probably a good idea, but still. Nnnnoooo!

Clarent damage hasn't really changed that much. Flux cost was more of a big deal, because these things were stupidly good on non-Templar ships that could mount them. 2000 damage and less range sounds interesting. If it curbs reloading and re-firing while still on approach, that'll bring them more in line with how they were meant to be used, I think.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: radekplug on April 06, 2016, 03:15:21 PM
in nwest update for ss+ sometiems i meet cabal flleet with templar cruiser or even one bigg fllet with templar battleship.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Gorgonson on April 07, 2016, 11:05:25 PM
I have to give credit to you, Dark.Revenant, Cycerin, Tartiflette, and MShadowy - This mod has spoiled me to no end.  The level of polish here is incredible.
The day I boarded a Jesuit, I was so happy.  I should have known it was a curse...  Nothing can top that little powerhouse, and I have nothing to look forward to anymore.
I can't wait for whatever else you have in store for us.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 07, 2016, 11:51:02 PM
I have to give credit to you, Dark.Revenant, Cycerin, Tartiflette, and MShadowy - This mod has spoiled me to no end.  The level of polish here is incredible.
The day I boarded a Jesuit, I was so happy.  I should have known it was a curse...  Nothing can top that little powerhouse, and I have nothing to look forward to anymore.
I can't wait for whatever else you have in store for us.

Thank you!  Cycerin and I worked hard.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Schwartz on April 11, 2016, 09:47:48 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/yKslasd.png)

Here's something you can look forward to. Yep, that's a hunter fleet.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Surge on April 11, 2016, 10:21:26 AM
No words for that, only tears.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: CitizenJoe on April 11, 2016, 11:27:22 AM
AWWW HELLL NAW

Edit: Pff, burn level 6? That isn't scary :P
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Schwartz on April 12, 2016, 03:52:07 AM
I managed to finally take it out without losses using 2 Paragons and 2 Mimirs, all loaded up on Wavepulse Cannons and Heavy Pulse Lasers. All other fleet compositions ran into a brick wall. I did have 4 Paladins ready, but they tend to suicide in Templar vs Templar fights.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: JohnDoe on April 12, 2016, 04:17:07 AM
Would have thought the Mimir to be more suicidal as AI tends to use the mobility system rather overzealously.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Schwartz on April 12, 2016, 07:03:28 AM
It does, but Mimir uses it also to back off again if it's taking a beating. The Paladin has a tendency to use its system to rush enemy ships into hugging distance. Paladin vs. Paladin usually means they both die, thanks to the massive explosion. I would've used 3 Paragons if I had a third one, so Mimir is funnily enough the 'budget option'. Onslaught gets minced.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: shingekinolinus on April 15, 2016, 11:34:12 PM
Here's a video of me taking on something similar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXSahXBQbbM

This is by far the roughest battle I've gone into, no major losses (only 1 jesuit) however two of my three karkinos were that close to becoming space junk. In my opinion, paragons do have amazing defensive capabilities and would be a great choice vs templar however I do prefer having overwhelming firepower and the ability to use templar kinetics. That being said, I think the karkinos is essentially a buffed onslaught: better manuverability, better armor, better focus fire (though less weapons) and better flux stats.

I also like having a bunch of random sacrificial fighters just to gain map control and be annoying. I was expecting a single priwin burst to take them all out but seems like that rarely happens.

My biggest mistake is being too aggressive in this battle, especially trying to camp their spawn (see 6:29). Most templar captains do tend to valiantly rush their ships into deathtraps and it would've gone better if I kited more.

As you can see by the end of the video, I think I've ran into a bigger problem.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Black Crag on April 17, 2016, 12:27:11 PM
What is it that determins if a ship will blow up after it is disabled? is it the flux level?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 17, 2016, 02:22:10 PM
What is it that determins if a ship will blow up after it is disabled? is it the flux level?

Ship hull type and RNG.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: shingekinolinus on April 17, 2016, 10:16:23 PM
Hi Dark Renevant. While playing with this mod, I've noticed that the templar kinetics raise flux levels by crazy amounts even against the fortress shield. When the Galantine HV Disruptor hits the Paragon's fortress shield, is the damage still reduced to 10%? I know the value displayed on the damage bubble is rather small but I think the shift in the flux bar is way too big for that to be true.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 17, 2016, 10:19:40 PM
You ought to read the description for those weapons; they raise flux on hit automatically.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Silver Silence on April 18, 2016, 10:16:42 AM
Additionally, in doing that, the Secace, Galatine and Arondight all have the ability to force overloads on you if you're the sorta person to only ever raise shields against torpedo hits and use the passive venting that would've been diverted to shields instead on pewpewing for as long as possible until you're at 95%+ flux. Having not played for a few months, it took me a few fights to remember that was a thing when fighting the Templar.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: neptix on April 30, 2016, 02:48:07 PM
I'm getting zero length vector crashes again, after I installed 0.95g.  The crash occurs the instant you transition from the dialog in campaign mode to battle mode.  The relevant part of the log:

Code
69949 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.IllegalStateException: Zero length vector
java.lang.IllegalStateException: Zero length vector
at org.lwjgl.util.vector.Vector.normalise(Vector.java:91)
at data.shipsystems.scripts.TEM_SchismDriveStats.apply(TEM_SchismDriveStats.java:102)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.systems.F.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.Ship.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advanceInner(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatState.traverse(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:745)

Any ideas?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 30, 2016, 05:03:14 PM
Evidently, you're not using 0.9.5g.  Line 102 of TEM_SchismDriveStats.java is:

Code
                    if (speed < 1f) {

Which can't throw that exception.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: neptix on April 30, 2016, 11:39:20 PM
You are correct, my apologies.  Apparently I downloaded 95g and installed the previous version again from my downloads directory.  Also, are the archbishops interceptors new?  Those things are terrifying
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Sy on May 01, 2016, 06:32:52 AM
do the looted Templar Flux Cores have any purpose besides just giving something to sell for credits?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: King Alfonzo on May 16, 2016, 11:41:49 PM
Just a little thing I noted in SS+ 3.5, Dynasector, Ship/Weapon, Underworld, and I'm not sure if intentional; you can pick up Templar weapons and Templar fighter wings from High-Tech military markets (Tri-Tachyon, Blackrock), if those markets were in a system that had been recently crusaded. The chance is still very rare, however. I am aware that independent markets can start selling Cabal ships if they come under sustained cabal assault, so perhaps something similar occurs in high-tech factions. Is this a a bug? Or was this the only way to (reasonably) get Templar fighters?

@Sy

I believe Templar Cores are 'Luxury items' that increase in price the further away you get from it's source (Antioch), kind of like Volturnian lobster which gets more valuble the further away you get from Sindria.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Sy on May 17, 2016, 07:37:34 AM
i see, ty. :]
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: koalabog on May 17, 2016, 10:09:22 AM
So a bit of an interesting crash im getting
Code
	96467 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.NullPointerException
java.lang.NullPointerException
at data.scripts.campaign.events.TEM_CrusadeEvent.reportBattleOccurred(TEM_CrusadeEvent.java:608)
at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignEngine.reportBattleOccurred(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.FleetEncounterContext.applyAfterBattleEffectsIfThereWasABattle(FleetEncounterContext.java:668)
at com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.BattleAutoresolverPluginImpl.resolveEngagement(BattleAutoresolverPluginImpl.java:488)
at com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign.BattleAutoresolverPluginImpl.resolve(BattleAutoresolverPluginImpl.java:234)
at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.fleet.Battle.doAutoresolveRound(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.fleet.Battle.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.BaseLocation.advanceEvenIfPaused(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.CampaignState.advance(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.BaseGameState.traverse(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
With the exact same error being thrown at line 223 in II_ISAFleetManager file for interstellar imperium, my limited java knowledge tells me some course of events cause the API to report the "primaryWinner" variable as null maybe something along the lines ofBut either way i cant really be sure just figured i would report this error

Edit:
I do have a save that causes the error within 30 seconds or so but im not sure i can upload files since its my second post on the forum
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 17, 2016, 07:39:13 PM
A mod list would help more.  The vanilla fleet managers would also crash at the same spot, so it's unfixable from my end, even if I was willing to bust my ass to fix some other mod's messy fleet-handling logic.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: koalabog on May 17, 2016, 11:32:23 PM
Ok then for mods with factions i have
Starsector+ 3.4.0
Steiner foundation 1.0.2
Blackrock
Diable avionics
Interstellar imperium
Idoneus citadel exiles
SCY
Templars

and the rest is
Combat chatter
Common radar
Console commands
Graphics Lib
Music lib(i think this is a part of SS+)
save transfer
version checker
Lazy lib
TwigLib

Reason i posted version numbers for SS+ and steiner foundation is i know they are out of date but the others should be up to date. And sorry for terrible formatting im not used to forums and grammer
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5g
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 18, 2016, 03:01:31 AM
ICE is suspect, but then again you're mixing mod versions that don't necessarily work together.
Title: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 21, 2016, 01:57:58 PM
Routine update.


(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.5h.7z)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.5h (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.5h.7z)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.5h.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires GraphicsLib 1.0.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10982.0)) (Updated!)

- Supported by DynaSector 1.0.3 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11001.0) (Updated!) -
- Supported by Nexerelin 0.7.5c (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.) (Updated!) -

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Edit TEMPLAR_OPTIONS.ini to enable or disable Knights Templar features, such as the demanding custom shader effects!

Having problems?  Visit the Mod Troubleshooting Guide (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10931)!


Change Log
Version 0.9.5h
- Minor improvements and fixes
- General compatibility update
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: King Alfonzo on May 21, 2016, 08:23:28 PM
Nice!

Although I've hit a problem - I had a battle crash to desktop because there was something wrong with the tem_latticeshield hullmod:

Fatal: data/hullmods/TEM_latticeShield
Cause: data.hullmods.TEM_latticeshield
Check Starsector.log for more info

Annoyingly, it doesn't generate a log for this error.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 21, 2016, 09:23:54 PM
Mod incompatibility.  Probably BRDY,  if you are using all the updated versions.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: NightKev on May 22, 2016, 01:19:44 AM
Bitbucket download for this mod is broken too (other than II/GraphicsLib all the others work fine though).
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Metadane on May 22, 2016, 06:18:17 AM
Brilliant mod, thanks very much for the hard work! :)
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: DrakonST on May 23, 2016, 01:39:17 AM
Mod incompatibility.  Probably BRDY,  if you are using all the updated versions.
Yes, it "BRDY" because of a kinetic shot-gun.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Gorgonson on May 27, 2016, 09:18:09 PM
Nice!

Although I've hit a problem - I had a battle crash to desktop because there was something wrong with the tem_latticeshield hullmod:

Fatal: data/hullmods/TEM_latticeShield
Cause: data.hullmods.TEM_latticeshield
Check Starsector.log for more info

Annoyingly, it doesn't generate a log for this error.

I've had the same issue.  Templar vs Shadowyards battle, but it generated a .log file for me.
I'll post the relevant part below, I hope this will help resolve the issue.

Quote
2908609 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: data/hullmods/TEM_LatticeShield
java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: data/hullmods/TEM_LatticeShield
   at data.scripts.weapons.MS_PolarizerSmallOnHitEffect.onHit(MS_PolarizerSmallOnHitEffect.java:33)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.MovingRay.notifyDealtDamage(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.E.oOOO.super.super(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.E.B.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.E.B.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advanceInner(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatState.traverse(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: data.hullmods.TEM_LatticeShield
   at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
   ... 12 more
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 27, 2016, 10:54:13 PM
Those mods will have to resolve the incompatibility on their end.  The structure of Knights Templar changed.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Mr. Nobody on May 28, 2016, 12:11:54 PM
Question: how much will it take before all (or a good amount of) the mods recover from the SS+ shakedown?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Kevin Flemming on May 28, 2016, 12:50:25 PM
Question: how much will it take before all (or a good amount of) the mods recover from the SS+ shakedown?

That isn't something you can really put a time frame on. Depends on how busy or enthusiastic the authors are.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Schwartz on May 29, 2016, 03:46:20 PM
Does anyone still have the 0.9.5g floating around? Since I assume that one will play nice with the currently available versions of other mods.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Sy on May 29, 2016, 04:09:38 PM
yup. (https://www.mediafire.com/?uund3075omtnvqd)
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Schwartz on May 29, 2016, 04:49:06 PM
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, that too now crashes the game when it loads up the main menu.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Sy on May 29, 2016, 05:33:22 PM
hmm, working fine for me. maybe you also need the older versions of SS+, Dynasector, etc?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 29, 2016, 09:18:47 PM
Here is a .jar with hacked-in compatibility; should work until those other mods (SRA and BRDY from what I remember) fix their stuff: https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars.jar
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: King Alfonzo on July 04, 2016, 02:39:57 AM
Something I've noticed (and not sure what to make of): When the Martyr class gets disabled, it propels itself towards the nearest ship. Not the nearest enemy ship, the nearest ship, firendlies included. Even when there's an enemy ship available, it still shoots towards the nearest ship, even if it's friendly.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Dark.Revenant on July 04, 2016, 03:57:44 AM
Indeed.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: LordDavenport on August 21, 2016, 06:33:03 PM
Was there ever talks of a non-carrier capital ship for the Knights? I have been really enjoying playing a game as a knight captain(using star starsector +, Nex, and most of the mod factions), and I have slowly phased knight ships out of my fleet. The Carrier is to resource heavy to really deploy, and really it isn't like it matters how much armor you have on your carriers. The paladin is fun, but isn't really armed that heavily. It has a hard time brawling with several capitals in a row. At this point my flag ship ends up either being a pocket battleship with three arondalights on the front, or a Corundum. The Paladin was a nice midrange flagship... but it isn't big enough to really act as the center piece of an end game fleet.

I wouldn't mind something stupidly expensive or with an insane resource cost...
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 21, 2016, 08:56:58 PM
There is a smaller carrier planned.  The paladin has always been a heavy cruiser, not a flagship.  It's powerful enough to act as a flagship if there are no battleships in the fleet, but ultimately it does not have the oomph to hold down an entire endgame fleet.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Weltall on August 21, 2016, 10:56:10 PM
O.O What? A smaller carrier? I cringe at the thought.. Templar having a lower CR solution when it comes to keeping their fighters alive and going.. The only reason eventually I stopped being really scared of the Templar, is because I came to understand that they can't have too many ships on their side, thanks to their huge CR.. but having a cheaper (in CR) carrier.. Now that adds a new level of fear.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Schwartz on August 22, 2016, 02:01:05 PM
Agreed. I have an end-game fleet myself with a lot of Teuton wings, and they tend to be so damn survivable that a carrier isn't really required to keep a battle going. They could be useful in Templar vs. Templar fights. Those burst attacks are the only thing that can really make short work of Teutons. But generally I think with the focus on a lean and mean ship lineup another carrier isn't really a fitting addition - nor another capital. To round it off, if anything I would consider adding another destroyer that's a little less lumbering and defensive. Maybe something with utility like a slow wind-up phase warp.

But as always, you do your thing. ;)
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 22, 2016, 02:18:18 PM
By smaller carrier I was thinking more like a cruiser.  A combat destroyer is also planned, as is another fighter type.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Sy on August 22, 2016, 02:19:20 PM
if a smaller carrier is added, how about making it a hybrid? it would be nice if Templars had a way of replenishing fighter wings without requiring a capital ship, but i also agree with Weltall in that Teuton wings being continuously rebuilt by a carrier hiding somewhere at the edge of the map seems kinda crazy. i suppose the current carrier is already a hybrid as well, but it doesn't act like one. a cruiser or possibly even destroyer sized hybrid carrier that fights at the front lines could be more easily focused down. having Teuton wings built and launched directly at the front lines, and having a hybrid ship dive right into battle, also fits the aggressive, almost suicidal Templar style, imo.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Weltall on August 22, 2016, 04:36:45 PM
I can't imagine any Templar ship hiding in the edge of the map honestly. The only one hiding is me. They have been nerfed so much, I finally managed to be able to stand against them.. and still I fear them.

I do not know how you got those Wings Schwartz. I used to be able to befriend them to in their market, but by now I am unable too. I am guessing if i turn against other factions right away, they might like me. I would mention about being sad they are not as powerful as they used to be, but I feel I will be shot on the spot for it.

I started a game of 0.6.5.2a... and got reminded why I really preferred to avoid them and let others handle them.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: King Alfonzo on August 22, 2016, 06:32:46 PM
Was there ever talks of a non-carrier capital ship for the Knights? I have been really enjoying playing a game as a knight captain(using star starsector +, Nex, and most of the mod factions), and I have slowly phased knight ships out of my fleet. The Carrier is to resource heavy to really deploy, and really it isn't like it matters how much armor you have on your carriers.

I too have found the Carrier to be a bit of an underwhelming adversary when I'm fighting against the Templars. They lack that umph the other ships have (the lack of a large mount I think really hurts it). What's more, it really only gets engaged right at the end of the battle when you've mopped up the rest of the fleet and you can pick it apart with leisure. It's a good carrier, but a rather dodgy capital, and - dare I say it - a rather dodgy cruiser. I wouldn't mind having a version of the Carrier with no flight decks, but about three large mounts, turning it into what the Cathedral is on steroids. That way when it pops up on your screen you know that you're going to be in for a bad time, instead of something you'll have to deal with once you've eaten the fifth paladin.

I do not know how you got those Wings Schwartz.

Strange thing I noticed ages ago - sometimes (but very rarely) templar weapons and fighter wings just appear in completely random markets. I've picked up Rhon lasers, Pax cannons, Merced cannons, Clarents and one or two Teuton fighter wings from random markets. Pretty generally these pop up in Tritachyon and CABAL markets, but my last Teuton Wing I found in a pirate market (!). I've even found an Arondight in Jangala and 2 flux cannons (whatever they're called) in an Imperium market (Aleria - I beg of you, in freaking ALERIA). So if you're just passing through a system, give a quick glance around the markets, because you never know when you might see that elusive Templar Teuton unicorn.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Schwartz on August 22, 2016, 09:50:14 PM
Yeah, you'll find the odd Teuton wing in random high-tech markets. I've had good luck with Blackrock.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: borgrel on August 23, 2016, 03:16:17 AM
I too have found the Carrier to be a bit of an underwhelming adversary when I'm fighting against the Templars. They lack that umph the other ships have (the lack of a large mount I think really hurts it). What's more, it really only gets engaged right at the end of the battle when you've mopped up the rest of the fleet and you can pick it apart with leisure. It's a good carrier, but a rather dodgy capital, and - dare I say it - a rather dodgy cruiser. I wouldn't mind having a version of the Carrier with no flight decks, but about three large mounts, turning it into what the Cathedral is on steroids. That way when it pops up on your screen you know that you're going to be in for a bad time, instead of something you'll have to deal with once you've eaten the fifth paladin.

it can mount 5 medium missile batteries ....... and a flight of 10 clarents can kick just about anybodies teeth in.
which is more perfect for its support role that direct fire weapons

...... and dont say 1 large missile and 3 mediums will work exactly the same, because the shots/min are differant so u will just end up with staggered missiles instead of huge salvos.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Sy on August 23, 2016, 07:43:57 AM
i think King Alfonzo is right though, the main problem is simply that you generally don't engage any Archbishop(s) until you've already dealt with the rest of their fleet. at that point you can usually just overwhelm them and take them out relatively quickly and easily.
if they'd attack with the bulk of their forces, and barrage you with Clarents while you're busy fighting several Paladins and various smaller craft, Archbishops would probably be a lot scarier.

also keep in mind that the large version of Clarents fires four of them at a time. and with its greatly extended range, it could also be dangerous when used from behind the front lines, while small and medium mount Clarent launchers only work in a direct engagement.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Starasp on August 23, 2016, 11:58:14 AM
I wouldn't mind having a version of the Carrier with no flight decks, but about three large mounts, turning it into what the Cathedral is on steroids. That way when it pops up on your screen you know that you're going to be in for a bad time, instead of something you'll have to deal with once you've eaten the fifth paladin.



That already exists if you're doing IBB stuff. The mod-archbishop can do exactly this iirc.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Sy on August 23, 2016, 12:16:10 PM
That already exists if you're doing IBB stuff. The mod-archbishop can do exactly this iirc.
yep, that thing is pretty nuts. but it doesn't change how 99% of fights against Templars play out.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Schwartz on August 23, 2016, 01:08:34 PM
You're saying the Templar capital is easy? Sheesh.. we must be playing a different game. Maybe if there was nothing else going on on the battlefield. But I seldom have the luxury of fighting it as an 'afterthought'. Usually it's surrounded by Teutons and some other stuff.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: King Alfonzo on August 23, 2016, 07:53:21 PM
You're saying the Templar capital is easy? Sheesh.. we must be playing a different game. Maybe if there was nothing else going on on the battlefield. But I seldom have the luxury of fighting it as an 'afterthought'. Usually it's surrounded by Teutons and some other stuff.

But you DO normally fight it when there's nothing else on the board. You just sit back and munch on the Teutons until they're spent, then mob it. Trying to attack that thing while the rest of the fleet is there is literal suicide. The carrier is a good anchor for a fleet, but it needs the fleet there to be spooky...which I can kind of think was a balancing decision so it's not too OP.

Then again, in my anti-Templar fleet I usually have hardened subsystems on all my ships as standard, so I can kind of outlast them.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Sy on August 24, 2016, 10:46:16 AM
You're saying the Templar capital is easy?
not really "easy", it's still a powerful ship. but easier than fighting two or three Paladins + several Crusaders, Jesuits and/or Martyrs + at least as many Teutons as you're still dealing with when finally engaging the Archbishop(s).
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Weltall on August 24, 2016, 02:38:40 PM
I think Paladins and Archbishops because really scary when surrounded by smaller ships, especially fighters... then again, I always hate fighters and if there are fighter in battles, my first targets become the ones with flight decks... although I have to admit with Templar I avoid the Archbishop until it is totally alone..
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: King Alfonzo on August 24, 2016, 04:49:18 PM
You're saying the Templar capital is easy?
not really "easy", it's still a powerful ship. but easier than fighting two or three Paladins + several Crusaders, Jesuits and/or Martyrs + at least as many Teutons as you're still dealing with when finally engaging the Archbishop(s).

A hundred times this. Maybe it'd be a lot more scary if it's deployment cost was reduced slightly, so you are more likely to run into the Archbishop along with more smaller ships.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Weltall on August 24, 2016, 05:54:51 PM
While we are having this talk... fighters are becoming part of the carrier and they can be infinitely reproduced. I am guessing Dark Revenant will add a large ammount of "fighter flux", so they will not be able to keep coming out in torrents, but the sure is that at least now Archbishop will always have the chance to have company, even after everything else is destroyed. Not that I think that eventually having a single fighter every so long will be too helpful towards Archbishop, but depending how many dicks Archbishop will have, I think balance of fighters is changing~
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Sy on August 25, 2016, 03:02:47 AM
yeah. Heron's current two flight decks will become three fighter wings, so the same should probably apply to Archbishop as well. three Teuton wings with infinite reinforcements seems kinda crazy, but ultimately specific fighters are still not directly linked to specific carriers. so a Mora could use Teutons, and an Archbishop could use Talons.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: borgrel on August 25, 2016, 03:08:09 AM
except that same as weapon flux, the archbishop will have a HUGE reinforcements pools
and templar fighter wings will cost a LOT for each reinforcement so that a mora will only get 1 or 2 reloads before the capacity is all used up
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Orikson on August 25, 2016, 08:48:15 PM
It'll certainly be interesting on how the Archbishop wil change given the new reworked fighters and carriers.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Sy on August 26, 2016, 08:29:24 AM
except that same as weapon flux, the archbishop will have a HUGE reinforcements pools
and templar fighter wings will cost a LOT for each reinforcement so that a mora will only get 1 or 2 reloads before the capacity is all used up
if i understood Alex right: neither carriers' reinforcement "pool" nor fighter wings' reinforcement "cost" are different from ship to ship / wing to wing. it's possible to change these, but they aren't intended to be used as common balance tools.

maybe Templars could get away with unique stats regardless, since the whole faction is unique in many ways. but then there should likely be another special hullmod or something else that shows these traits.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Kargen on August 27, 2016, 01:24:13 AM
Hiya folks, I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this but, I've been getting crash errors every time I face a Templar. I'm guessing it has something to do with shard weapons hitting the Templar Lattice shield? Any help to fix this would be appreciated  :D
Quote
467670 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: data/hullmods/TEM_LatticeShield
java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: data/hullmods/TEM_LatticeShield
   at data.scripts.weapons.ShardOnHitEffect.onHit(ShardOnHitEffect.java:36)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.BallisticProjectile.setDidDamage(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.entities.BallisticProjectile.notifyDealtDamage(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.E.oOOO.String.super(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.E.B.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.E.B.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advanceInner(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatState.traverse(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: data.hullmods.TEM_LatticeShield
   at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
   ... 13 more
Mods in use
The Knights Templar
Blackrock Drive Yards
DiableAvionics
Interstellar Imperium
Mayorate
Neutrino corp
Scy
ShadowYards
Tiandong Heavy Industries
Starsector+, Nexerelin, LazyLib, ZZ Graphics Lib, TwigLib, Combat Chatter, Combat Radar
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: MesoTroniK on August 27, 2016, 01:37:28 AM
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8095.msg188890#msg188890

Replace the Templar's .jar with that hotfixed one.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Kargen on August 27, 2016, 05:00:06 AM
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8095.msg188890#msg188890

Replace the Templar's .jar with that hotfixed one.
Thanks for directing me to that but unfortunately the link is not working. It's giving me an access denied page in html format. :(
Would you perhaps know of another link? Thank you very much  ;D
Quote
This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.
<Error>
<Code>AccessDenied</Code>
<Message>Access Denied</Message>
<RequestId>D3CC7D05E5C514A3</RequestId>
<HostId>
eEgjja1ChQ/GO6o+JqPyaazFxIgho7N0lWBOXf39P4Pb58gDT6gYOmu0RjHlfYbb7fsDYnTGFb8=
</HostId>
</Error>
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: DownTheDrain on August 27, 2016, 05:59:26 AM
Thanks for directing me to that but unfortunately the link is not working. It's giving me an access denied page in html format. :(
Would you perhaps know of another link? Thank you very much  ;D

Just go back to page 52 of this thread, second post from the bottom.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Weltall on August 27, 2016, 07:33:15 AM
Kargen, it seems that either it is a bitbucket bug or something like that. I am going to message you the jar, since I do not want to post a public link on her,e under Dark Revenant sees this.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: comp on August 27, 2016, 07:54:14 AM
Kargen, it seems that either it is a bitbucket bug or something like that. I am going to message you the jar, since I do not want to post a public link on her,e under Dark Revenant sees this.
Can you send me the jar too? I'm having the same issues as Kargen.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Weltall on August 27, 2016, 10:44:53 AM
Can you send me the jar too? I'm having the same issues as Kargen.

By now bitbucket has fixed the issues they had, but just in case this is only for my side of the world, I will send you a message with it. Although I am sure this time the link will work for you if you try.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: comp on August 27, 2016, 12:29:34 PM
By now bitbucket has fixed the issues they had, but just in case this is only for my side of the world, I will send you a message with it. Although I am sure this time the link will work for you if you try.

Thanks for helping out.
And yes, link is working again.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: borgrel on September 05, 2016, 05:13:50 AM
BTW: does lattice shield count as shield or armour??
(i.e. does kinetic of HE damage work?)
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on September 05, 2016, 11:20:12 AM
BTW: does lattice shield count as shield or armour??
(i.e. does kinetic of HE damage work?)
I think kinetic
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: King Alfonzo on September 05, 2016, 05:47:33 PM
BTW: does lattice shield count as shield or armour??
(i.e. does kinetic of HE damage work?)

Counts as shield - you can tell because when you whack the ship, the numbers that pop up are grey. At high flux, some of the damage bleeds through, so you start to see yellow for the armour and, eventually, red for hull.
Title: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 17, 2016, 07:25:50 PM
General improvements, including more aggressive Archbishops...

Edit: broken
(Requires LazyLib 2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires GraphicsLib 1.0.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10982.0))

- Supported by DynaSector 1.0.4 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11001.0) (Updated!) -
- Supported by Nexerelin 0.7.5c (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0) -

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Edit TEMPLAR_OPTIONS.ini to enable or disable Knights Templar features, such as the demanding custom shader effects!

Having problems?  Visit the Mod Troubleshooting Guide (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10931)!


Change Log
Version 0.9.6
- Fixed legacy crashes
- Archbishop speed increased to 50 from 30
- Archbishop is no longer designated as a carrier, so it will enter battle more readily
- Lattice shield beam damage reduction is now based on a curve; using beams to finish off a ship is much easier now
- Improved custom Priwen Burst UI indicator appearance
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Sy on September 18, 2016, 11:04:38 AM
including more aggressive Archbishops
awesome! looking forward to seeing how this changes big endgame battles. :]
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Asauski on September 20, 2016, 11:46:17 AM
I'm having this error after update to 0.9.6

sometimes I have this error when start a battle or a mission with some templar ship.

Quote
550797 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Color parameter outside of expected range: Alpha Red Green Blue
java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Color parameter outside of expected range: Alpha Red Green Blue
   at java.awt.Color.testColorValueRange(Unknown Source)
   at java.awt.Color.<init>(Unknown Source)
   at java.awt.Color.<init>(Unknown Source)
   at data.scripts.util.TEM_Util.interpolateColor(TEM_Util.java:168)
   at data.scripts.util.TEM_Util.drawSystemUI(TEM_Util.java:62)
   at data.scripts.everyframe.TEM_PriwenBurstPlugin.advance(TEM_PriwenBurstPlugin.java:281)
   at com.fs.starfarer.title.C.o0oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO$Oo.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.A.B.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advanceInner(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatEngine.advance(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatState.traverse(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.state.AppDriver.begin(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain.main(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$1.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)

help  :'(
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Sy on September 20, 2016, 12:12:49 PM
help  :'(
i have no idea what any of that means, but the default solutions to most mod related crashes seem to be:

Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 20, 2016, 04:30:27 PM
I have to go on a limb here but sometimes, exceptions are *** ***.  Crashing out of an entire program because some color value was higher than 255?  Why doesn't it just clamp?  Who wrote that tripe?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 20, 2016, 10:51:25 PM
Anyway to answer your question: there is no help.  The mod is broken and you can't use it.  Disable it and start your save over or transfer.  I'll fix it eventually when I'm not busy.

Alternatively, you can go into the Bitbucket page : https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/overview and clone the repository so you can build your own jar and run it yourself.  It's already fixed but releasing anything takes forever.  You know that update batch from a few days ago?  Just releasing that stuff took three solid hours of work, not counting any development time.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Asauski on September 21, 2016, 06:35:08 AM
Well, thank you for your attention, I will try to do something about the jar file but I do n know anything about this stage of the mods.

I think more viable (and safe) continue with 0.9.5h version, perhaps I end up breaking the whole game hehe ;D.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Asauski on September 22, 2016, 09:48:32 AM
I think more viable (and safe) continue with 0.9.5h version, perhaps I end up breaking the whole game hehe ;D.

Well, I ignored what was said before and following a tutorial I found here in the forum created the jar file, but kept having a similar error, except for the red color.

But I found an efficient way to recreate the bug:


However if you change a part of the TEM_Util code line ...

Code
    private static Color interpolateColor(Color old, Color dest, float progress) {
        final float antiProgress = Math.max(0f, Math.min(1f, 1f - progress));
        final float[] ccOld = old.getComponents(null), ccNew = dest.getComponents(null);
        //remove it
        //
        //return new Color((ccOld[0] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[0] * progress),
        //        (ccOld[1] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[1] * progress),
        //        (ccOld[2] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[2] * progress),
        //        (ccOld[3] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[3] * progress));
        //
        //and put it
        //
        return new Color(Math.max(0f, Math.min(1f, 1f - ((ccOld[0] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[0] * progress)))),
                Math.max(0f, Math.min(1f, 1f - ((ccOld[0] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[0] * progress)))),
                Math.max(0f, Math.min(1f, 1f - ((ccOld[0] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[0] * progress)))),
                Math.max(0f, Math.min(1f, 1f - ((ccOld[0] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[0] * progress)))));
    }

and repeat this process, the box that marks the cooldown will be completely black for a few seconds (the burst cooldown?) instead of breaking the game.

Maybe "MAYBE" the bug is in some part of the cooldown timer code in TEM_PriwenBurstPlugin because time does not reset...

I do not know if this information can help in something, but for some reason I thought q would be useful to post here :P.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5h
Post by: michael1 on September 22, 2016, 06:35:00 PM
Can you send me the jar too? I'm having the same issues as Kargen.

By now bitbucket has fixed the issues they had, but just in case this is only for my side of the world, I will send you a message with it. Although I am sure this time the link will work for you if you try.

Do you mind sending it to me too? The link on page 52 is dead.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Dark.Revenant on September 22, 2016, 08:34:11 PM
I think more viable (and safe) continue with 0.9.5h version, perhaps I end up breaking the whole game hehe ;D.

Well, I ignored what was said before and following a tutorial I found here in the forum created the jar file, but kept having a similar error, except for the red color.

But I found an efficient way to recreate the bug:

  • Start a mission of the Templars
  • Go to the simulator
  • Use the Priwen / Almace Burst
  • Before the shields raise, get out and go back to the simulator

However if you change a part of the TEM_Util code line ...

Code
    private static Color interpolateColor(Color old, Color dest, float progress) {
        final float antiProgress = Math.max(0f, Math.min(1f, 1f - progress));
        final float[] ccOld = old.getComponents(null), ccNew = dest.getComponents(null);
        //remove it
        //
        //return new Color((ccOld[0] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[0] * progress),
        //        (ccOld[1] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[1] * progress),
        //        (ccOld[2] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[2] * progress),
        //        (ccOld[3] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[3] * progress));
        //
        //and put it
        //
        return new Color(Math.max(0f, Math.min(1f, 1f - ((ccOld[0] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[0] * progress)))),
                Math.max(0f, Math.min(1f, 1f - ((ccOld[0] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[0] * progress)))),
                Math.max(0f, Math.min(1f, 1f - ((ccOld[0] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[0] * progress)))),
                Math.max(0f, Math.min(1f, 1f - ((ccOld[0] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[0] * progress)))));
    }

and repeat this process, the box that marks the cooldown will be completely black for a few seconds (the burst cooldown?) instead of breaking the game.

Maybe "MAYBE" the bug is in some part of the cooldown timer code in TEM_PriwenBurstPlugin because time does not reset...

I do not know if this information can help in something, but for some reason I thought q would be useful to post here :P.

There is no timer bug.  I didn't bother adding a bunch of initialization logic for it because the only outward effect of it is that the timer would be wrong for one frame when you first start combat.

The crash is because the Color class throws runtime exceptions if any input is out-of-range, which is a *** stupid design.  Most of the AWT libraries are like that.

The reason the "fix" I made was wrong is because I am unfit for modding.  I have been exhausted every day for months, and usually get home like 1 hour before I'm supposed to sleep.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Orikson on September 23, 2016, 06:06:30 AM
Ok, don't be too hard on yourself. Your a great modder with a lot of wonderful mods after all.

So we can't use the Knights Templar for now I guess? I'll patiently wait for it. (We all probably have long patience spans with how Starsector updates come by ;D).
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: sirboomalot on October 08, 2016, 08:11:43 PM
If a change to the jar isn't actually needed to fix the crash, maybe you could get the next version out without messing with that whole bitbucket thing. Just make the change to the already jar'd 9.6 version and upload that?

Seems like it could save you a bit of time and get people's next Templar fix out sooner...   ;D
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: tbninja on November 18, 2016, 12:14:50 PM
Hey, I really enjoy this mod and it's a shame it's not functional at the moment.
Is there an ETA of the fix and could anyone pm me the fixed jar in the mean time?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: sirboomalot on November 18, 2016, 02:47:20 PM
The fix doesn't actually seem to be that hard.

Step one: Download 9.6 from the first post, unpack it like you would any other mod.

Step two: Go to Starsector/mods/Templars/data/scripts/util

Step three: Open TEM_Util.java with any text editor, such as notepad.

Step four: Scroll to the bottom, and replace

Spoiler
}

    private static Color interpolateColor(Color old, Color dest, float progress) {
        final float antiProgress = 1f - progress;
        final float[] ccOld = old.getComponents(null), ccNew = dest.getComponents(null);
        return new Color((ccOld[0] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[0] * progress),
                         (ccOld[1] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[1] * progress),
                         (ccOld[2] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[2] * progress),
                         (ccOld[3] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[3] * progress));
    }
[close]

with

Spoiler
}

    private static Color interpolateColor(Color old, Color dest, float progress) {
        final float clampedProgress = Math.max(0f, Math.min(1f, progress));
        final float antiProgress = 1f - clampedProgress;
        final float[] ccOld = old.getComponents(null), ccNew = dest.getComponents(null);
        return new Color((ccOld[0] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[0] * clampedProgress),
                         (ccOld[1] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[1] * clampedProgress),
                         (ccOld[2] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[2] * clampedProgress),
                         (ccOld[3] * antiProgress) + (ccNew[3] * clampedProgress));
    }
[close]

Step five: Enjoy.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Asauski on November 18, 2016, 05:24:39 PM
I hope I'm not disrespecting any forum rules with this post but here it is ...
I hope it's possible to download this file

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vu7fd815n48pq4b/Templars.jar?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/vu7fd815n48pq4b/Templars.jar?dl=0)

Templars.jar with the corrections shown by sirboomalot, enjoy.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Morgan Rue on November 19, 2016, 11:36:16 AM
Wait, this mod is currently busted?  ??? I'm running Templars and a bunch of other stuff(Nexerelin + faction mods + some utility mods) and its working mostly fine. Only issue is if I run the game for too long, like 3+ hours, it starts to get unstable, but I think that is mostly because I have too many mods active and not enough memory space. I'm running Templars version 0.9.5h on Starsector 0.7.2a-RC3.

full mod list
Spoiler
Dynasector 1.0.4, ApproLight 0.4.6a(f1)*, Combat Chatter 1.6.1, Diable Avionics 1.63, Interstellar Imperium 1.12.1, LazyLib 2.1, Nexerelin 0.7.5c, Simulator Overhaul 1.2b, The Knights Templar 0.9.5h, Torchships 1.0, ZZ GraphicsLib 1.0.2
*Is this outdated? I started in v7a. I think this mod is at least partially responsible for the instability.
[close]
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Tartiflette on November 19, 2016, 11:45:12 AM
Use Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181.0) to keep your mods up to date.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: DownTheDrain on November 19, 2016, 12:19:48 PM
Also, ApproLight can indeed break things even when it's not outdated.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: DornoDiosMio on December 06, 2016, 11:56:52 PM
Hi,

I just wanted to say I really like "The Knights Templar" and the lore behind the faction. Needless to say I was really surprised when I played my first game with them and then checked the faction tab to see that everyone was hostile to me. It was a really cool moment.

The one very tiny criticism I have, is that the faction music seems a little loud compared to the other music in the game and can be kind of jarring when you dock at a station or planet. I think it's primarily the volume of the track and not necessarily the track itself, but, that's just my opinion.

Other than that I think everything is really well done and I just wanted to thank you guys for your work on this.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: DornoDiosMio on December 07, 2016, 12:15:22 AM
I hope I'm not disrespecting any forum rules with this post but here it is ...
I hope it's possible to download this file

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vu7fd815n48pq4b/Templars.jar?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/vu7fd815n48pq4b/Templars.jar?dl=0)

Templars.jar with the corrections shown by sirboomalot, enjoy.

Thanks, I d/l'd the file w/o issue. I'm sure I could have done the stuff myself, but, it's always easier if someone else does it for you. That's why I pay someone to cut my grass, lol.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6
Post by: Sy on December 07, 2016, 05:39:47 AM
The one very tiny criticism I have, is that the faction music seems a little loud compared to the other music in the game
i believe this is intentional, to make the music feel more impactful. the Templars aren't known for doing things in moderation. go big or go.... actually, there is no other option. ALWAYS go big! :P

but you can very easily edit the volume of individual music and other sound files yourself. just change "volume":0.5 in \Starsector\mods\Templars\data\config\sounds.json to whatever you'd prefer.
Title: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on January 08, 2017, 01:56:40 AM
Basic update...  Also, the mod now works!

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.6b (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars_0.9.6b.7z)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.6b.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires GraphicsLib 1.0.3 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10982.0) (Updated!))

- Supported by DynaSector 1.0.5 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11001.0) (Updated!) -
- Supported by Nexerelin 0.7.6d (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0) (Updated!) -

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Edit TEMPLAR_OPTIONS.ini to enable or disable Knights Templar features, such as the demanding custom shader effects!

Having problems?  Visit the Mod Troubleshooting Guide (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10931)!


Change Log
Version 0.9.6b
- Updated ship and weapon prices
- Fixed stupid color crash
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: Sy on January 08, 2017, 07:52:05 AM
Also, the mod now works!
that's the best kind of change! :D
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: majorfreak on April 02, 2017, 01:47:24 PM
*fires up 45 minute long twostepsfromhell playlist and reads all 56 pages*

interesting read. one thing i found missing from the entire thread was an indepth look at how the Longinus Heavy Laser compares to other beams. Especially, how come it's got almost the same stats as the Plasma Cannon which is a large energy? Just based on that i'd say the mod as a whole is unbalanced and OP. Actually, being honest, one has to admit there's been a severe lack of philosophical discussion as to what constitutes a 'Large' weapon as opposed to the smaller brethren...just by looking at some of the [admittedly very cool] weaponry in the armory of someone with most of the mods installed.

Having lambasted Dark Revenant, albeit unfairly, the onus is on me to proof the case that the Longinus either needs a 'Large' designation or some sort of nerf to make it less appealing (because, honestly, why not put the long in a large slot, ffs?)

Using the Sunder (U)'s large energy slot i'm going to beat the stuffing out of successive enforcers (poor things, i know) after entering "allweapons" into console. Now, i'm using probably half of the major mods on the left hand side of the index by now so it should be somewhat definitive.
Using an officer with 10 power grid skill
My hypothesis is that as i travel down the OP cost list of energy weapons available, and make notes as to flux and damage, i will find the Longinus outperforms at an immersion breaking level compared to it's peers.
If it does i'll probably download and install the editor (assuming i'll be able to nerf the gun that way)


now, taking a bit to refine my hypothesis i'd like to point out that the first impression of the Longinus was that it's "1000flux/second" statistic didn't really seem like that ingame. It's a continuous fire beam weapon and i worry less about it than my high intensity laser? hello
yeah. confirmed. look at that. jeezuz. wiped the floor with that poor enforcer. didn't even bother to turn on high energy focus once. flux? lulz. seriously? nahhh..something's wrong. i lower the sunder's flux to base and i'm barely scratching flux levels. turn the shields on and it start moving slowly up.  yeah, dude. serious problems...did you recently buff the weapon and not touch the ingame statistics? seriously overpowered. stop listening to Megas. lol

it's got the turning radius of a medium energy but the power of something costing 21 OP that's a large. it's got good range, and it's the only true 'large' beam weapon outputting non-explosive.  My suggestion? simply change the damage type to explosive and you'll solve the problem then and there. sure it'll cost more than the large intensity laser, but its stats (corrected) are superb across the board, so why the hell not?

tried to add attachment but forum big meanie. sad.








Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 02, 2017, 02:34:19 PM
I had an easier time killing a Dominator in my Sunder U (no officer skills) using a Heavy Blaster in place of the Longinus Heavy Laser.  And we're talking about a ship that is vulnerable to beams.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: Schwartz on April 02, 2017, 02:50:05 PM
Sure it's a good weapon, but it's not cheap to fit or to fire. Longinus on non-Templar ships is not nearly as useful as the Sentenia (homing that passes through friendlies anyone?). It's always going to be a beam. Those Templar beams only really shine when you get the flux perk along with them. Also there's the High Intensity Laser for Sunders, which is quite good now and can be paired up with 2x Gravs to melt through almost anything.

Anyway, my extensive playthrough ended with a bunch of Templar weapons on non-Templar ships, and the only really overpowered ones were the pre-nerf Clarents. Rest is, all things considered, a slight upgrade with a hefty cost.

Seems odd that the HIL feels more flux hungry to you than the Longinus. Will have to test...
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: majorfreak on April 02, 2017, 02:57:23 PM
I had an easier time killing a Dominator in my Sunder U (no officer skills) using a Heavy Blaster in place of the Longinus Heavy Laser.  And we're talking about a ship that is vulnerable to beams.
well, i can't very well defeat a dom using a single heavy blaster. just sitting ingame simulator with no enemies i can push my 1 longinus to actually increase flux a bit faster than a single heavy blaster, when shields are on. i'm guessing longinus has an effective flux of about between 600-800/sec?


Sure it's a good weapon, but it's not cheap to fit or to fire. Longinus on non-Templar ships is not nearly as useful as the Sentenia (homing that passes through friendlies anyone?). It's always going to be a beam. Those Templar beams only really shine when you get the flux perk along with them. Also there's the High Intensity Laser for Sunders, which is quite good now and can be paired up with 2x Gravs to melt through almost anything.
Anyway, my extensive playthrough ended with a bunch of Templar weapons on non-Templar ships, and the only really overpowered ones were the pre-nerf Clarents. Rest is, all things considered, a slight upgrade with a hefty cost.
Seems odd that the HIL feels more flux hungry to you than the Longinus. Will have to test...
High Int plus Gravs. hmmm...you know, i wonder why i never tried those vanilla weapons in combo? n00b me.
But, sorry for digressing. My point is that there needs to be a discussion about large/medium threshold. the longinus is seriously overpowered as a medium (regardless of how shockingly low it's ingame flux/sec is)

====
grrrr...now i can't replicate the flux problem vs the high intensity beam and longinus *feels like ****
*keeps trying to replicate*
okay, i may be misunderstanding the flux issue when it's at zero. i've got my sunder at 990 dissipation but the longinus isn't increasing it. slowly lowering the dissipation by increments to see where it starts to fill the flux capacitors.
at 950 dissipation the longinus will very slowly start filling the capacitor. hmmmm...i wonder if it's a peculiarity of true beam weapons

I did test your grav+HI; i prefer my tachyon+heavy shockbeams (same range; way better performance)
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 02, 2017, 03:15:08 PM
Longinus is 1000 flux/sec.  A fully-outfitted Sunder with shields off raises flux by about 250/sec (assuming power grid 10), which will take a while to fill up the flux bar.

Anyway, my test was with graviton beams in the medium slots, salamanders, and vulcans.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: majorfreak on April 02, 2017, 03:17:38 PM
read my last. edited. am i misunderstanding how flux works?

Regardless, trying the heavy blaster is sort of misleading. the lesser range (even with AO and the other extended range hullmod, and lvl5 gunnery) is brutal against the dominator for flux management. The grav+long combo is a good range to kite the dom while being nimble enough to sidestep the inevitable bull charges.

I dunno. i think i've listed a number of major advantages true beams have. not least is that weird flux thing (that i seem to have overstated when it's only 50 flux/sec off listed stats)
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: cjuicy on April 02, 2017, 03:49:24 PM
Isn't the point of the Templars to be as OP as possible while being slightly killable?
Even then, this discussion does raise the valid question of large/medium slot distinction.

Everything Templar is overkill. NUFF SAID.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: majorfreak on April 02, 2017, 04:04:32 PM
Isn't the point of the Templars to be as OP as possible while being slightly killable?
Even then, this discussion does raise the valid question of large/medium slot distinction.

Everything Templar is overkill. NUFF SAID.
it's either a distinction that needs to be talked about and refined. OR we simply say "NUFF SAID" and ignore the immersion breaking situation with the long.
*shrug* i think i'll go finally download that editor and see how the Templar fair when i change the long...i wonder if i should make it a large (meaning i probably have to tweak the slots on some ships) or change it to explosive (the simpler option; and probably my only option? might not be possible even)
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 02, 2017, 04:10:18 PM
read my last. edited. am i misunderstanding how flux works?

Regardless, trying the heavy blaster is sort of misleading. the lesser range (even with AO and the other extended range hullmod, and lvl5 gunnery) is brutal against the dominator for flux management. The grav+long combo is a good range to kite the dom while being nimble enough to sidestep the inevitable bull charges.

I dunno. i think i've listed a number of major advantages true beams have. not least is that weird flux thing (that i seem to have overstated when it's only 50 flux/sec off listed stats)
  • you've got the ability to instantly hit the target (and with 'shift' key it becomes very easy to track a target if it's a hardpoint on a sunder)
  • you can keep constant pressure on a target (and whittle away at it when the shields go down for any brief period like the AI is wont to do)
  • advanced optics (combined with gunnery implants and integrated targeting unit) has no downside...whereas projectiles of any type have travel time to compensate
  • with a medium fast tracking turret the long is almost an automatic hit
  • there's literally NO other energy type damage true beam in the game of medium/large that even comes close to the long (heavy shockbeam for example)
  • heck, you can even wave it back and forth and wipe away missiles inbound...something i didn't realize until now
Maybe, just MAYBE, if you weren't using the OP as hell skills, the gun would not seem so OP
Modders balance around level ZERO after all. I'd like to see you use and support the laser in missions
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: majorfreak on April 02, 2017, 04:19:17 PM
possibly. yet, i believe you simply cannot throw out sheet anchors to port and starboard on a whim to derail my comparisons (which would stand up to lesser skills since i tested all equally at the same skill/hullmod level)
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 02, 2017, 04:39:27 PM
How the hell will changing the Longinus Heavy Laser to HE nerf it? Hell, that would just make it even MORE OP. You DO realize that right? Energy damage is the second weakest damage type, next to frag due to damage bonuses.
To be honest, the HIL should not exist is SS beams are S*** and the HIL especially is TurboS***™ because no player agency
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: Schwartz on April 02, 2017, 04:47:30 PM
So what are beams now? Good or sh*t? Because to me that just translates to a situational weapon. Sunder with HIL & 2 Gravs is excellent in fleet engagements. The same ship in a 1v1 against an enemy with strong shields and kinetics is going to be a paper tiger. Hence why I said - as good as the Longinus is, it's still a beam. And it costs a ton of flux. Crunching the numbers does not account for flux that accrues in combat, and you're unlikely to always keep enemies at a cozy distance. Up close you're using a weapon that can't deal hard flux vs. shields while you yourself are eating plenty of it.

Energy damage is pretty good all-around. Why do you think the Mjolnir is so popular as the #1 ballistic weapon?

Also yeah, Templar weapons are reserved for high skill players. Others gimp their loadouts trying to fit them. This is kind of a big deal still, because by endgame you yourself, your fleets and your loadouts are overpowered. Templar guns add to it, but they don't make that much of a dent anymore at that level.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 02, 2017, 05:01:12 PM
So what are beams now? Good or sh*t? Because to me that just translates to a situational weapon. Sunder with HIL & 2 Gravs is excellent in fleet engagements. The same ship in a 1v1 against an enemy with strong shields and kinetics is going to be a paper tiger. Hence why I said - as good as the Longinus is, it's still a beam. And it costs a ton of flux. Crunching the numbers does not account for flux that accrues in combat, and you're unlikely to always keep enemies at a cozy distance. Up close you're using a weapon that can't deal hard flux vs. shields while you yourself are eating plenty of it.
Basically SS beams, especially constant ones, in general are s*** because there is no player agency. They are a binary weapon; either you are hitting the enemy or you are not. They are also an "always on autofire" weapon. At least the Longinus uses more flux than vanilla beams so you can't just leave it on auto. Another reason why they suck is there is VERY little API support. So modders can't really do much with them and make them Not S***.

Energy damage is pretty good all-around. Why do you think the Mjolnir is so popular as the #1 ballistic weapon?
Only because it was buffed when regenerating ammo was introduced (was Plasma Cannon tier flux efficiency) but was never nerfed when infinite ammo was added.Also, that gun is getting nerfed in .8 and is already nerfed in SS+

possibly. yet, i believe you simply cannot throw out sheet anchors to port and starboard on a whim to derail my comparisons (which would stand up to lesser skills since i tested all equally at the same skill/hullmod level)
Easy: You are testing in a skill zero environment against a SINGLE ship with poor shields with skills yourself.
Your testing methods are bad and you should feel bad
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: majorfreak on April 02, 2017, 05:37:30 PM
hmmm...all i hear is "i know fancy words" (alot of fanboi nerddom bafflegab) making fun of someone trying an honest attempt and detailing a comparison between one single weapon i thinks is overpowered and the ENTIRE list of large energy weapons at my disposal (with nary a single true energy beam among them, besides the explosive HIL, which kind of makes your point a little bit silly when you talk explosive but ridicule my use of the enforcer as the drone)

*caveat: since you seem to be intent of just picking me apart out of context let me remind you i've already conceded multiple times i understand the intent of this mod...it's just...i dunno. there's ways of going about making the templars challenging without breaking immersion; And i'd like to point out the very best use of this conundrum is being honest about the lack of medium/large parameters when designing weapons...at least it seems that way to me after reading all 56 pages of this thread.

EDIT: sadly, the ship editor isn't able to work with weapons. Well, the only option is to roleplay (to pick and choose the least immersion breaking elements of a mod and not to touch the rest)
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: Toxcity on April 02, 2017, 06:12:35 PM
I disagree that SS beams are ***. They are weapons that control space extremely well.

HIL or Ion force an opponent to play more defensively. In essence they're similar to harpoons as a shield can't safely use their flux without facing consequences. Beams also give energy mounts an advantage vs. more agile targets.

Also just beacause a weapon doesn't require constant micromanagement make it bad. Not everything needs antimatter blaster levels of involvement. As long as a weapon has strengths/weaknesses, it can be interesting.

EDIT: not to be completely off topic, any plans for hybrid templar tech ships? I remember that HELMUT posted a high-tech templar tech hybrid, and it seems like it would be a good way to add more ships without clogging the templar faction itself up with ships.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 02, 2017, 06:27:35 PM
hmmm...all i hear is "i know fancy words" (alot of fanboi nerddom bafflegab) making fun of someone trying an honest attempt and detailing a comparison between one single weapon i thinks is overpowered and the ENTIRE list of large energy weapons at my disposal (with nary a single true energy beam among them, besides the explosive HIL, which kind of makes your point a little bit silly when you talk explosive but ridicule my use of the enforcer as the drone)

*caveat: since you seem to be intent of just picking me apart out of context let me remind you i've already conceded multiple times i understand the intent of this mod...it's just...i dunno. there's ways of going about making the templars challenging without breaking immersion; And i'd like to point out the very best use of this conundrum is being honest about the lack of medium/large parameters when designing weapons...at least it seems that way to me after reading all 56 pages of this thread.
Player agency is basically how much they interact with the player. SS Beams are boring and uninteresting to use.
Notice that lack of constant beams? It is because they are boring and there are very few ways to make them interesting and different.
Also, I'm pointing out major issues in your test bed because it can skew and mess up results
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: Rynuia on April 02, 2017, 07:07:44 PM
Beams are in general intended for support roles, as they have efficient flux costs (effective cost = cost per second - flux dissipation per second), long range and instant hits, while dealing less damage against armor (they deal half damage, in case of Longinus, it's equal to a projectile dealing 375 damage per second) and deal soft flux against shields. Burst beams are also falls into support category, but they are a bit more effective against armor as their damage is calculated by the burst's damage per second. As they are support weapons, they are generally dealing energy damage - jack of all trades but master of none.

Now, if you change the damage type of Longinus into HE, they will be rather ineffective against shields indeed, but they will deal HUGE amounts of damage to armor. It is already balanced as it is, cost/damage wise it is not efficient (save for the templar ships) and a ship with 0.5 flux/damage won't build any flux by having 375 flux dissipation for each beam - meaning that it will cost more to the source ship (even to the templars).
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 02, 2017, 07:09:56 PM
The Longinus is extremely proficient at melting low-tech ships (ships that rely on armor rather than shields).  This is intentional; most of the Templar weapons are meant to combat ships with good shields.  The Longinus falls flat on its face against a ship with decent dissipation and good efficiency; even something like an Eagle with Stabilized Shields and 18 vents will take zero soft flux buildup from a Longinus, effectively wasting the 1000 flux/s the firing ship is spending.

I will make the Longinus turn slower though (30 -> 10).  It's erroneously as fast as the Rhon.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.6b
Post by: majorfreak on April 02, 2017, 09:32:46 PM
thanks. i feel like a n00b here, but after reading all those pages i noticed a distinct lack of talk about the long's very attractive stats.
Title: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 07, 2017, 01:15:18 AM
New stuff!

(http://i.imgur.com/EP4P1L2.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.7.7z)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.7 (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.7.7z)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.7.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires GraphicsLib 1.0.4 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10982.0) (Updated!))

- Supported by DynaSector 1.0.8 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11001.0) (Updated!) -
- Supported by Nexerelin 0.7.7 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0) (Updated!) -

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Edit TEMPLAR_OPTIONS.ini to enable or disable Knights Templar features, such as the demanding custom shader effects!

Having problems?  Visit the Mod Troubleshooting Guide (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10931)!


Change Log
Version 0.9.7
- Added Chevalier-class Avenger
- Added Lancelot Lance built-in for the Chevalier
- Added Crucifix MRM
- Added Crucifix MRM Array
- Added Trucidare LRM
- Teuton fighters now have a Crucifix MRM Mini launcher instead of a Clarent launcher
- Increased Archbishop armor to 1200 from 1000
- Tweaked Clarent stats (again)
- Adjusted Holy Charge AI
- Schism Drive generates soft flux instead of hard flux
- Reworked Templar variants
- Added A Hard Place mission
- Reworked Excommunication mission
- Tweaked other Templar missions
- Additional balance changes
- Added fake phase system onto Templar ships to improve enemy AI handling of attack patterns (especially missiles)
- Updated various scripts to remove frame rate dependence on graphical effects
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7
Post by: Gezzaman on April 07, 2017, 03:04:09 AM
i... dont even wanna go near templars now..
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7
Post by: cjuicy on April 07, 2017, 07:44:12 AM
i... dont even wanna go near templars now..

No thanks. I already die enough from surprise Clarents. And singular Teuton wings. And anything larger than a frigate from them.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7
Post by: DrakonST on April 07, 2017, 07:47:44 AM
One more ship in the Templars fleet will effectively blow up. ;D

Spoiler
Perhaps it was the most evil ship from all that is at **. However he has turned out insufficiently angry.

(http://i.imgur.com/KVBbbB2.png)
[close]

Dark.Revenant when there is a support of an event "Holy Crusade" for Nexerelin non-Corvus mode?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7
Post by: Eternity on April 08, 2017, 12:08:33 PM
Hi all

Many thanks for this cool updates with fresh ship ;-)

Going to test it right now ...
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7
Post by: DrakonST on April 09, 2017, 05:22:12 AM
We... Need... More special effects! ;D
Spoiler
(https://pp.userapi.com/c837734/v837734179/2d743/dh_Lwseu-mM.jpg)
[close]
Title: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 11, 2017, 01:39:54 AM
Lots of fun balance changes.  SAVES WILL BREAK HORRIBLY!


(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.7b.7z)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.7b (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.7b.7z)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.7b.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires GraphicsLib 1.0.4 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10982.0))

- Supported by DynaSector 1.1.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11001.0) (Updated!) -
- Supported by Nexerelin 0.7.7b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0) (Updated!) -

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Edit TEMPLAR_OPTIONS.ini to enable or disable Knights Templar features, such as the demanding custom shader effects!

Having problems?  Visit the Mod Troubleshooting Guide (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10931)!


Change Log
Version 0.9.7b (April 11, 2017)
- Improved Chevalier armor, speed, and turning
- Chevalier no longer loses beam range (but still loses beam power) with higher flux
- Chevalier beam flux/second scaling with higher flux now proportionally matches the loss in DPS
- Chevalier beam scaling now only applies while the Lancelot Lance is firing
- Lancelot Lance damage reduced to 1200 from 1500 per second
- Lancelot Lance flux reduced to 1500 from 2000 per second
- Reduced Trucidare submunitions to 8 from 10
- Trucidare, Crucifix, Secace, Galatine, and Arondight hard flux increases no longer scale with damage buffs
- Crucifix damage and EMP reduced to 150 from 200
- Crucifix hull-hit extra damage reduced to 75 from 100
- Crucifix hull-hit extra EMP reduced to 75 from 200
- Trucidare flux cost reduced to 2000 from 2500
- Trucidare now detonates if it rams into a ship
- Improved Dynasector results (breaks saves)
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7b
Post by: Ceebees on April 12, 2017, 10:06:25 PM
I've always enjoyed Templars since i first found it, cool to have a new ship to panic about again!
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7b
Post by: StarSchulz on April 14, 2017, 08:59:36 PM
I can already imagine one of those things staying behind an archbishop firing its laser.. beautiful.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7b
Post by: EvilWaffleThing on April 15, 2017, 08:13:09 PM
So how exactly do I make it so I can use prisoners to gain rep?
I've looked through the files and found the omnifactory settings but I've seen anything about prisoner actions.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7b
Post by: Histidine on April 15, 2017, 08:31:46 PM
So how exactly do I make it so I can use prisoners to gain rep?
I've looked through the files and found the omnifactory settings but I've seen anything about prisoner actions.
Nexerelin/data/config/exerelinFactionConfig/templars.json -> allowPrisonerActions
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7b
Post by: EvilWaffleThing on April 16, 2017, 06:28:03 AM
Well in hindsight that seems obvious...
Thank you very much!
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7b
Post by: Howkin on May 06, 2017, 08:14:45 PM
How the work for the 0.8 version goin?
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7b
Post by: Death_Silence_66 on May 11, 2017, 12:44:48 PM
I wonder how these will stack up against [REDACTED] fleets.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7b
Post by: Inventor Raccoon on May 11, 2017, 12:46:53 PM
I wonder how these will stack up against [REDACTED] fleets.
Templars will absolutely crush them.
Title: Re: [0.7.2a] The Knights Templar 0.9.7b
Post by: DanJSC on May 11, 2017, 03:48:33 PM
I wonder how these will stack up against [REDACTED] fleets.
Templars will absolutely crush them.

Won't even be close. Even for the [REDACTED] you know what.
Title: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 14, 2017, 12:44:53 AM
At long last...


(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8.7z)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.8 (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8.7z)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.8.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0) (Updated!))
(Requires GraphicsLib 1.1.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10982.0) (Updated!))

- Supported by DynaSector 1.1.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11001.0) (Not yet updated!) -
- Supported by Nexerelin 0.7.7b (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0) (Not yet updated!) -

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Edit TEMPLAR_OPTIONS.ini to enable or disable Knights Templar features, such as the demanding custom shader effects!

Having problems?  Visit the Mod Troubleshooting Guide (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10931)!


Change Log
Version 0.9.8 (May 14, 2017)
- Updated to support Starsector 0.8a
- Adjusted various ship stats to meet new standards
- Longinus Heavy Laser DPS reduced to 600 from 750
- Longinus Heavy Laser flux/s reduced to 900 from 1000
- Rhon Laser DPS reduced to 250 from 300
- Rhon Laser flux/s reduced to 350 from 450
- Improved fleet spawn scaling
- Archbishop now has built-in Faith Decks
- Enhanced campaign terrain in various ways
- Teutons rebalanced
- Almace Burst nerfed in almost every manner
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: arwan on May 14, 2017, 01:09:22 AM
yay now i get to try these god ships out.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Eternity on May 14, 2017, 04:59:44 AM
Many thanks Dark.Revenant for this quick update !!!
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: StarSchulz on May 14, 2017, 10:25:19 AM
Thank you! this faction gives some major purpose to lategame for me.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: D00D on May 15, 2017, 05:00:22 AM
The new salvage system makes it way too easy to grab Templar ships and their restoration costs is about on par with the top tier ships. I think the price should be increased a bit. Speaking of which, how do I activate the special burst ability? Rightclick seems to do nothing for me.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: borgrel on May 15, 2017, 05:24:03 AM
since templar ships explode on death, how are they salvagable at all??
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Sy on May 15, 2017, 07:25:12 AM
since templar ships explode on death, how are they salvagable at all??
same basic idea as how they've always been boardable in previous versions: every now and then, they don't explode, giving you a chance to capture the ship(s). in most battles you shouldn't be able to capture any, but you will eventually able to get a decent number if you keep fighting them.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: D00D on May 15, 2017, 07:49:44 AM
I'm getting a ton of them from NPC battles when they launch a crusade, even more in the rare cases where they get their faces smashed in. Some variable must have been off since their exploding chances doesn't seem to apply to NPC battles where you don't participate.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: ROFLtheWAFL on May 15, 2017, 03:12:15 PM
As much as I appreciate the challenge Knights provide, right now they're going crazy all over the sector. Multiple Templar fleets swarming through hyperspace murdering everything that looks at them funny. The only reason Hyperspace is traverseable at all is because Templars are neutral to the player at first.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Flibjib on May 16, 2017, 08:09:57 AM
Love the look and feel of this mod.

I had a quick question, I salvaged a Martyr and I can't seem to get the Almace burst to work. Could this be related to the D-mods on the craft, or am I missing something? I've tried on a several different flux levels but nothing happens.

Please continue the great work!

Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 16, 2017, 10:28:10 AM
There are several bugs related to D-mods, but Priwen/Almace burst not working is actually intentional.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: SierraTangoDelta on May 17, 2017, 04:00:44 PM
I assume it's to prevent people from taking advantage of the lower deployment cost on Templar ships with d-mods, right?
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: qinta on May 18, 2017, 12:07:17 PM
I am having an issue getting Starsector started with the Knights Templar mod activated. I have both Lazylib 2.2 and Graphicslib 1.1.0 running, no other mods activated, Starsector crashes, closes down, then I get a java popup exactly as follows

Fatal: Error loading [sounds/templars/sfx_wpn_guns/tem_secace_fire1.wav]
resource, not found in [C:\program Files (x86)\Fractal
Softworks\Starsector\Starsector-core\..\mods\LazyLib,C:\Program Files
(x86)\Fractal Softworks\Starsector\starsector-core\..\mods\Templars,C:\Program
Files (x86)\Fractal
Softworks\Starsector\starsector-core\..\mods\GraphicsLib,../starfarer.res/res,CLA
SSPATH]
Check starsector.log for more info


I am pretty sure that the problem is not with lazylib or graphicslib, since I had other mods working that require them.

Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 18, 2017, 12:13:02 PM
You might want to re-download.  Also, make sure you delete the original folder.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: qinta on May 18, 2017, 12:27:21 PM
still have the same issue, maybe its the extraction software I am using? though I have not had any issues with it when unzipping other files.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 18, 2017, 12:50:45 PM
Which software is it?  There shouldn't be missing files.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: isaacssv552 on May 18, 2017, 01:27:03 PM
Which software is it?  There shouldn't be missing files.
When I downloaded two of the audio files were corrupted and I had to pull them from the old version. (I re downloaded as soon as the error appeared and tried two unarchivers with no luck.)
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: qinta on May 18, 2017, 02:07:02 PM
I am using 9zip, and for some reason, its not extracting the .wav files from the sfx_wpn_guns folder. Its handling the .ogg files just fine, but it wont do anything with the .wav files. I installed a different extraction software, and it started up fine now. Thanks for the help and quick replies, and sorry for wasting your time.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: ahrenjb on May 18, 2017, 02:20:31 PM
Thanks for the update DR.

Started a new campaign included Templars and haven't noticed any issues. The Templar fleets roaming around space are a persistent threat, but there doesn't seem to be an overabundance of them or anything.

Priwen Burst not working on (D) model ships was a good call, I think. Templar ships are a little more available due to the new mechanics is 0.8 and they'd just be too powerful if they were fully functional. The extreme cost of restoration, often more than what it would cost to purchase and fit a capital, is a good offset to this.

I salvaged a Bulwark (D) and it's strong enough even with a mediocre weapons fit to give my fleet a real edge. The 300,000 cost of restoration is high, but I'm glad to pay it anyway.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Death_Silence_66 on May 19, 2017, 03:05:03 PM
Apparently some of the files are password protected and can't be extracted by 9zip.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 19, 2017, 09:24:41 PM
9zip doesn't support common compression filters like delta encoding, which 7zip uses for wav files.  Reuploaded with that forced off...
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Clutch31313 on May 21, 2017, 02:37:21 PM
Is there any way to improve Templar relations in 0.8a? I've assisted the Templar in battles in and out of crusades without gaining any relation at all. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 21, 2017, 03:32:37 PM
Is there any way to improve Templar relations in 0.8a? I've assisted the Templar in battles in and out of crusades without gaining any relation at all. Am I missing something?

You get Crusade reputation, but a bug is preventing reputation from climbing via combat.  I'll fix that.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Clutch31313 on May 21, 2017, 03:33:32 PM
Crusade reputation? What is this and how do I get it?
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 21, 2017, 03:35:13 PM
Kill enemies of the Templar in crusaded systems.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Clutch31313 on May 21, 2017, 03:36:35 PM
Does this include the hyperspace area around the system?
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Dark.Revenant on May 21, 2017, 04:39:07 PM
If it's close enough, yes.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Death_Silence_66 on May 25, 2017, 12:09:55 AM
The fighter versions of weapons show up when configuring a ship for missions. I assume this is not intended.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: KopiG on May 30, 2017, 02:29:52 PM
First of all, I love the mod it is absolutely insane good however I have to say, getting Longinus Laser from the Knights is almost impossible. I have defeated around 30 fleets and have salvaged only 1 Longinus laser so far. Is this intended?
PS: I have insane amount of Sentenia Assault Cannons
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: cjuicy on May 31, 2017, 08:17:52 AM
First of all, I love the mod it is absolutely insane good however I have to say, getting Longinus Laser from the Knights is almost impossible. I have defeated around 30 fleets and have salvaged only 1 Longinus laser so far. Is this intended?
PS: I have insane amount of Sentenia Assault Cannons
Think about how many ships carry a Longinus compared to Sentenia Cannons. Also remember there are other variants that might carry a Juger or ROLAND. If I remember, it is only the Archbishop and Paladin that can carry them. (Correct me if I am wrong.)
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: KopiG on May 31, 2017, 12:30:28 PM
First of all, I love the mod it is absolutely insane good however I have to say, getting Longinus Laser from the Knights is almost impossible. I have defeated around 30 fleets and have salvaged only 1 Longinus laser so far. Is this intended?
PS: I have insane amount of Sentenia Assault Cannons
Think about how many ships carry a Longinus compared to Sentenia Cannons. Also remember there are other variants that might carry a Juger or ROLAND. If I remember, it is only the Archbishop and Paladin that can carry them. (Correct me if I am wrong.)
Exactly my question, is that intended that very very few fleets have Longinus Laser ships, and if they do, from like 10 ships only 1 carries it? This seem to me a bit odd. As I said, from around 30 fleets I managed to salvage only ONE Longinus. I have just recently got my second Longinus after around +5 fleets defeated. Maybe I am just very unlucky? Or the numbers are really this uneven?
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: cjuicy on May 31, 2017, 01:38:31 PM
First of all, I love the mod it is absolutely insane good however I have to say, getting Longinus Laser from the Knights is almost impossible. I have defeated around 30 fleets and have salvaged only 1 Longinus laser so far. Is this intended?
PS: I have insane amount of Sentenia Assault Cannons
Think about how many ships carry a Longinus compared to Sentenia Cannons. Also remember there are other variants that might carry a Juger or ROLAND. If I remember, it is only the Archbishop and Paladin that can carry them. (Correct me if I am wrong.)
Exactly my question, is that intended that very very few fleets have Longinus Laser ships, and if they do, from like 10 ships only 1 carries it? This seem to me a bit odd. As I said, from around 30 fleets I managed to salvage only ONE Longinus. I have just recently got my second Longinus after around +5 fleets defeated. Maybe I am just very unlucky? Or the numbers are really this uneven?
I think the salvage rates also affect it. Have you put any points into skills that increase salvage and/or weapon drop rates? Also, research stations are a good place to find rare weapons in general.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: KopiG on June 01, 2017, 06:14:10 AM
I had salvage skills, but yesturday I respecced my character and dropped salvaging. Also gathered 4 more Longinus lasers from around 10-15 fleets. So I guess RNG was just not on my side.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: KopiG on June 02, 2017, 02:24:25 AM
Now what I have truly realised that from all my fleet kills I only have just one Clarent SRM Tube. As my previous posts stated I now have around 6 Longinus Lasers. I have defeated countless amount of fleets but it seems like they just dont use it.
While the Longinus Lasers are rare, I would consider this rarity for the Clarent SRM Tubes to be rather a bug. It cannot be that from 40+ fleets I get just only 1.
Title: Re: [0.8a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8
Post by: Death_Silence_66 on June 02, 2017, 02:58:16 AM
AFAIK salvage skills have no effect on post battle loot.
Title: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8b
Post by: Dark.Revenant on June 04, 2017, 03:24:21 AM
Hopefully, this is the last update before the Big Things.

Note: DynaSector is necessary for debris/salvage adjustments to certain Templar campaign features.  Without certain features added by DynaSector, significantly more gear is possible to salvage than is actually intended, which can negatively impact balance and your enjoyment of the game.  If you don't like certain changes introduced by DynaSector, (nearly) all of them can be turned off in DYNASECTOR_OPTIONS.ini.


(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8b.7z)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.8b (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8b.7z)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.8b.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires GraphicsLib 1.2.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10982.0) (Updated!))

- Supported by DynaSector 1.2.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11001.0) (Strongly recommended!) -
- Supported by Nexerelin 0.8 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0) (Not yet updated!) -

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Edit TEMPLAR_OPTIONS.ini to enable or disable Knights Templar features, such as the demanding custom shader effects!

Having problems?  Visit the Mod Troubleshooting Guide (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10931)!


Change Log
Version 0.9.8b
- Updated to support Starsector 0.8.1a
- Each D-mod decreases Lattice Shield ship performance
- D-modded Templar ships have no Priwen Burst
- Significant changes to Templar debris/derelicts
- Significant rebalance to fleet presence in the sector
- Significant rebalance of Crusades and Crusade effects
- Prevented edge cases that could break the economy
- Greatly reduced EMP damage of Priwen Burst, Almace Burst, and Excalibur Drive detonations
- Increased ship prices
- Fixed floaters on the Chevalier sprite
- Readjusted Almace Burst AI
- Attacks that deal hard flux on a hit now only deal soft flux if they hit hull (still hard flux against shields)
- Adjusted Holy Charge AI
- Fixed some reputation-related issues for battle participation
- Priwen Burst and Excalibur Drive detonations have a maximum amount of total damage, attenuating if there are too many targets
- Made Martyrs more aggressive
- Far fewer enemy Templar ships are available for capture
- Aegis Shield now has charges and regenerates
- Reduced Clarent damage to 1500 from 2000, reduced Fighter Clarent damage to 1250 from 1500
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8b
Post by: StarSchulz on June 04, 2017, 08:21:50 AM
Thanks for updating.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8b
Post by: Drokkath on June 05, 2017, 02:08:08 PM
*chuckles meticulously* Time for a round two for my Dramlord-class vs Templar fleets. Thanks for updating it, though! I may not like the faction but I sure like testing my overpowered ships against the Templar fleets.

EDIT: *sigh of relief* Refreshingly satisfying to me:

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/JP0rPpY.png)
 
"Your shrines will burn, your streets run with blood, your false idols shattered, your people slaughtered by the thousands, your very planet torn apart… and the barest fraction of my hatred will be satisfied!" - Ba’ar Zul the Hate-Bound, Warrior of Khorne
[close]

Still had to modify my doomsday Dramlord a bit though, increased its flux dissipation seriously of the scale so I could machinegun-blast them with my personal Doombore cannon that can do some EMP damage too. The glorious sound of a rapid-fire Hellbore sounds and disintegrating the Templar ships before they can initiate their explosion device thus rendering them derelicts in many pieces.
Title: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Dark.Revenant on June 10, 2017, 05:17:49 PM
Hopefully, THIS is the last update before the Big Things.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8c.7z)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.8c (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8c.7z)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.8c.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires GraphicsLib 1.2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10982.0) (Updated!))

- Supported by DynaSector 1.2.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11001.0) (Strongly recommended!) -
- Supported by Nexerelin 0.8c (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0) (Updated!) -

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Edit TEMPLAR_OPTIONS.ini to enable or disable Knights Templar features, such as the demanding custom shader effects!

Having problems?  Visit the Mod Troubleshooting Guide (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10931)!


Change Log
Version 0.9.8c
- Fixed Templar transponder-off proceedings
- Improved some odds and ends
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Galwail on July 01, 2017, 12:06:13 PM
I have salvaged some Templar ships and weapons with thoughts of integrating them into my fleet, but the end result was rather disappointing.


If they are supposed to be the boss faction, they could use a bit of a boots.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Nanao-kun on July 01, 2017, 01:18:41 PM
Have you fought them head on?
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Galwail on July 01, 2017, 03:42:37 PM
Have you fought them head on?

What do you mean?

All fights in the simulator were on autopilot, so I can see, how the AI handles it.

In game I fight them head on. I have a mixed fleet with 3 capitals, 2 cruisers, 10 destroyer carriers and 7 frigates. Templars usually engage my big tanky ships and then get destroyed by fighters/bombers. They can always deploy only a relatively small number of ships. So even large Templar fleets attack in waves, that are quite manageable.

Now don't get me wrong, they are still stronger than other factions. It's just that I remember them being even stronger in 0.7.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on July 01, 2017, 03:44:53 PM
Have you fought them head on?

What do you mean?

All fights in the simulator were on autopilot, so I can see, how the AI handles it.

In game I fight them head on. I have a mixed fleet with 3 capitals, 2 cruisers, 10 destroyer carriers and 7 frigates. Templars usually engage my big tanky ships and then get destroyed by fighters/bombers. They can always deploy only a relatively small number of ships. So even large Templar fleets attack in waves, that are quite manageable.

Now don't get me wrong, they are still stronger than other factions. It's just that I remember them being even stronger in 0.7.
Yeah, that's because of the old OP BS skills...
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Megas on July 01, 2017, 05:43:55 PM
Templars are still strong, but maybe not overwhelmingly so.  In my last Nexerelin game, my restored Paladin (that I recovered) was my trump card if my triple Tachyon Lance Karkinos was not good enough.  High-flux Priwen Burst wrecks small ship swarms and counters that AI's favorite behavior to some extent.

Paladin with IPDAI Rhons, Sentennia, and Joyese/Arondight is still a bit ridiculous.

However, thanks to Advanced Targeting Core, Paragon with quad Tachyon Lances destroys Templar ships somewhat easily, unless swarmed by multiple ships.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: A Random Jolteon on July 23, 2017, 04:04:49 PM
My first fight against the Templars. I was using a modded faction with a mix of Ballistic Energy and Missile weapons, with a slight focus of energy.
My side: 1 destroyer, 1 Escort Carrier (Basically a smaller carrier), 2 frigates.
Allies: 6 destroyers, 6+ frigates, 1 Escort carrier(Maybe Poi?). (Spread out along two picket fleets)

Knights Templar: 2 destroyers, 2 frigates, 2 corvettes


End result:
My side: Destroyer Heavily damaged, 1 Frigate heavily damaged, 1 Frigate Moderately damaged
Allies: 4 destroyers blown to bits, 5 frigates destroyed, Carrier N/A (Forgot to look at it)


Lesson of this post? Never underestimate the Templar's. Ever.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: OzarMidrashim on July 23, 2017, 04:14:34 PM
We all know...they use P90's, Apple Artefact and Bronze Spear...alongside other dirty hax hex and secret cheats.

I like whole idea, of some zealots who encountered and pillaged ancient artefacts from holly temples of long forgotten ancients, and now behave like they own everything and are most suited to lead and set in stone what is what.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on July 23, 2017, 04:23:51 PM
...they use P90's...
What is this, Stargate?
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: OzarMidrashim on July 23, 2017, 04:56:47 PM
...they use P90's...
What is this, Stargate?

FN P90 ...futuristic personal balistic weapon, designed some time ago that absolutley declass everything. Immagine 50 rounds, compact, almost no recoil, accurate, fast firing, submachinegun with rifle ammo that eats through vests.

Yea... SG1 from Stargate used them to...just after they diched MP5's.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Drokkath on July 24, 2017, 04:42:37 PM
Heh, how fitting to consider the Templars as the Ori of Starsector, one of the reasons the Templars are the first faction to go in my playthroughs. Damn was it difficult to watch Stargate SG-1 when they introduced those holier-than-thous, felt like punching through the screen to shut up their BS. Can at least finally beat/kick/stomp/maim/kill/obliterate such similar baddies into useless shreds of tiny pieces.

I'm glad that this mod exists though, have lost count how many times I've torn through Templar fleets and in my head after invading their planet I imagine nuke-bombarding their planet into a lifeless rock and crushing any left-over Templar warrior/officer/whatever-rank's square helmet/head into a crushed and bloody scrap with the boot of my demonically superior pressurized-power-armor-space-hazard-suit.

Recently even went as far as to recover their ships only to scuttle them. I got nothing against the mod-maker or something along those lines, I just do what I do in-game to get rid of my frustrations and it tends to include all religions, both Luddic Church and Luddic Path get the extermination marked at their way too in my playthroughs, after wiping them all out I move on to wiping most of everything else.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: orost on July 25, 2017, 10:01:06 AM
I do miss the old power level of the Templars. In 0.65 they used to be frightening, and if I wanted to kill a Paladin, I had to design a fleet around that goal and even then it wasn't easy. I remember that killing a Templar fleet with two Paladins was something that I could just barely do, after multiple attempts, with a maxed out character and fleet fully optimized for that task. I was probably bad at the game back then, and lack of officers didn't help, but, still...

Now they're just very strong and a Paladin is about as much of a threat as any good capital ship.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Mr. Nobody on July 25, 2017, 12:10:49 PM
Agree on that, they seem so... Balanced now.
I'm not sure if it's because vanilla/mods became more powerful and the Templars didn't follow suit or the Templars were being nerfed but i can find myself easily taking their destroyers with a relatively small fleet, their cruisers take a bit more but i can usually grind them down with little losses.
I personally blame the fighter rework for that.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: King Alfonzo on July 25, 2017, 05:29:51 PM
Nah, it has to do with salvage mechanics. It used to be really, REALLY hard to acquire a templar ship, or just difficult to aquire templar weapons. However, now it's a lot easier to get a Templar ship post-battle, and it's easier to get templar weaponry without actually fighting them. So to balance it, the templars got nerfed. I think this has been somewhat fixed in the most recent Templar patch, but it's still too easy to aquire templar technology. Hence, the balance.

If it became just as difficult to get a Templar ship or weaponry as in 0.7.2, then I imagine Rev will ramp up their OPness.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Schwartz on August 01, 2017, 01:09:46 PM
Some feedback re: Templar power and the new version.

Crucifix missiles have great visuals, but they feel weak. They plink against decently strong shields and armour both. They don't inspire the dread that comes with other signature Templar weapons. Essentially ships favouring these over Clarents are fighting with a handicap. Try building a Paladin around as many Crucifix systems as you can fit and have him fight a few simulator battles. Compare with classic loadouts. For a frontloaded weapon system, it's not bursty enough. I'd recommend either making it more regenerative or adding more flux spike / EMP.

The Chevalier seems to be bugged. By default, all weapon ranges are reduced. It also does not reduce the Lancelot Lance's range depending on flux level, tried it with ship system on and off.
That aside, it's too strong against other Templar ships since they aren't fully shielded. If you manage to steal a Paladin and outfit it, you'll notice that this much cheaper Templar cruiser is the biggest threat on the battlefield. Fighting Paladins is easier than fighting one of these. It turns around so fast that its artillery beam is lacking a downside and trying to outmaneuver the ship (which you'd expect to work) will be rewarded with death. Too weak: Artillery beam range without ship system is very short. I'd balance this by making it longer range and less damaging. Or making damage dissipate with range.

The classic Templar ships and weapons haven't been nerfed much. Sentenia is still amazing and probably remains the one decent flux/DPS gun to put on non-Templar ships. The bursts still shred fighters, but I've been able to field a mass of fighters against Crusaders and smaller ships fairly successfully. Clarents are still scary but have taken a back seat since there's now several missile choices, so less Clarent spam is in itself a nerf since numbers compound threat.

So far the 8 Teuton wings I've been able to snatch all use Crucifix missiles. This seems appropriately powerful since they rearm in flight and fairly quickly as well. It would be nice to see standard loadouts for the bigger Templar ships to favour more Clarents though unless Crucifix ship weapons become more threatening. By the changelog it looks like Clarent Teutons are still in rotation but I haven't met a single one yet. I'll chalk that one up to RNG for now.

Even with the latest version, Templar ships are much too easy to obtain after battle. You could comfortably cut that down to 1/4 or beyond.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: King Alfonzo on August 01, 2017, 07:30:48 PM
Crucifix missiles have great visuals, but they feel weak. They plink against decently strong shields and armour both. They don't inspire the dread that comes with other signature Templar weapons. Essentially ships favouring these over Clarents are fighting with a handicap. Try building a Paladin around as many Crucifix systems as you can fit and have him fight a few simulator battles. Compare with classic loadouts. For a frontloaded weapon system, it's not bursty enough. I'd recommend either making it more regenerative or adding more flux spike / EMP.

I am inclined to agree about this - Crucifixes are just a bit too weak for their suppression purpose. Not by much mind you, but just a little bit. Maybe if they regenerated just a smidge quicker they'd be a better suppression weapon.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 03, 2017, 03:54:12 AM
Some feedback re: Templar power and the new version.

Crucifix: They used to be more powerful but I had to nerf them due to being incredibly overpowered on non-Templar ships.  Like instant-win powerful.  There's probably no real solution to this other than making the flux cost too unappealing for any non-Templar ship, and even then it becomes a binary uncounterable attack that the player can't do anything about other than massing flak/burst PD.  Kind of like how clarents used to be.  The only acceptable change is probably to remove the ammo cap.

Chevalier: I have no idea WTF that range bug might be and I never noticed anything of the sort.  Ranges shouldn't change based on flux level anymore, by the way.  The beam is supposed to be OP, and being good against Templar ships is not exactly a major concern for me.  You're not supposed to outmaneuver one in a duel; you being a team mate.

Salvaging: I can't do anything about this.  Unless I flag Templar ships as outright unboardable across the board, there's basically nothing I can do to make salvaging them harder.  It took a lot of work just to make it so you can't grab them from deep space; at least you have to actually *fight* them.  When it comes to battle salvage, all bets are off; for example, Reinforced Bulkheads makes their salvage chance 100% even if I set their boarding chance to 1%.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Mr. Nobody on August 03, 2017, 05:20:42 AM
About the "too OP when on non-Templar" issue, could it be possible to use a modified version of the Onslaught Large-Mounts-Cost-Less Hullmod to make so Templar weapons cost less OP/generate less flux when on Templar ships?
Maybe the next update with the "manufacturer" thing might make it easier to implement but it should still be possible now, albeit with some workarounds to properly identify ships and weapons
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Schwartz on August 03, 2017, 05:54:02 AM
Too bad about the salvaging. Maybe there'll be more settings to tinker with in future versions.

Nr. Nobody, it's already like this though. Templar ships have a ton of OP to be able to field the expensive guns, and all weapon flux is cut in half. On non-Templar ships you effectively have to pay an OP amount that the ships weren't made to handle, and a high flux cost to boot. The winbutton-ness of Clarents on regular ships was remedied by giving them a decent flux cost. I haven't tried Crucifix on regular ships yet, will have to get back to you on that...

Yeah, I was wrong about the weapon range thing. I don't know why I was still convinced a tick of the reticule is 100 units. It isn't.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Mr. Nobody on August 03, 2017, 07:23:31 AM
and all weapon flux is cut in half.
I didn't mean "all weapons" but specifically TEMPLAR weapons. As is "templar weapons on templar ships is smooth as butter, any other combination and you have to take a hammer to it to make it fit"
Also with the OP cost reduction for templar weapons on templar ships you can cut some of the OP available to templar ships so they aren't as murderous in the hand of a player that fits them with "conventional" weaponry
Since Templar tech is supposed to be fairly alien (as in "there is nothing like this in normal ships" not in "ayy lmao") compared to everyone else's it makes sense that they are specialized to use their own weapons, other factions (captains) have to do a large amount of hackjobs in order to cram a templar weapon into a normal mount.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Schwartz on August 03, 2017, 07:56:09 AM
That's just the thing though - it doesn't matter if it's just Templar weapons or all weapons. The high OP ceiling of Templar ships doesn't translate to more power if you fit cheaper guns on them. You just get more hullmods or better flux stats. And a much higher TTK against other ships. Offensive power is mostly limited by weaponry, so DR balanced it one way. Making Templar weapons specifically cheaper on Templar ships would be doubling down on that, it's not really necessary. I think the trouble of fitting Templar weapons on regular ships is well represented in the many sacrifices you have to make and the fragile combat performance you get as a result.

The only times that formula runs into problems is when you have Templar weapons with 'too reasonable' flux stats like the Sentenia, Pax Cannon (not technically cheap, but range makes it viable) or formerly the Clarents, coupled with ships that have the stats and spare OP to handle them. A lot of Templar guns aren't great for that purpose already, so it's just an issue of us figuring out the cheese builds so he can fix the remaining ones. Like.. you wouldn't do any better putting a Longinus on a Sunder when you can just fit a HIL with 1/1 flux.

tl;dr: Up Sentenia flux cost a bit and you're golden.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 03, 2017, 09:31:05 AM
Agreed; I'll probably end up doing that.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Mr. Nobody on August 03, 2017, 10:54:52 AM
That's just the thing though - it doesn't matter if it's just Templar weapons or all weapons. The high OP ceiling of Templar ships doesn't translate to more power if you fit cheaper guns on them. You just get more hullmods or better flux stats. And a much higher TTK against other ships. Offensive power is mostly limited by weaponry, so DR balanced it one way. Making Templar weapons specifically cheaper on Templar ships would be doubling down on that, it's not really necessary. I think the trouble of fitting Templar weapons on regular ships is well represented in the many sacrifices you have to make and the fragile combat performance you get as a result.

The only times that formula runs into problems is when you have Templar weapons with 'too reasonable' flux stats like the Sentenia, Pax Cannon (not technically cheap, but range makes it viable) or formerly the Clarents, coupled with ships that have the stats and spare OP to handle them. A lot of Templar guns aren't great for that purpose already, so it's just an issue of us figuring out the cheese builds so he can fix the remaining ones. Like.. you wouldn't do any better putting a Longinus on a Sunder when you can just fit a HIL with 1/1 flux.

tl;dr: Up Sentenia flux cost a bit and you're golden.

Better flux stats that translate into me being able to slap all those weapons that don't have a too high OP cost but eat flux like nobody else.
Or installing SO and brutally murder anything within 450 range while enjoying even greater flux stats (double venting at all times).

What i'm getting at is making the Templar weapons and ships a "costly but effective" thing when taken separately and a "refer to the ships' chaplain asap" when together.
This would allow DR to make the Templar fleets even more of a powerhouse (pretty much Final Boss or even Bonus Boss staus) without necessarily turning the recovery of a templar ship or a bunch of their weaponry in a "i win" button against anything that is not a massive non-pirate fleet.

Long story short:
Normal ship with Templar weaponry->Ok-ish, better be able to supply the insane flux cost with what little OP it has left
Templar ship with normal weaponry->Ok, is a noticeabily stronger ship with a nice system but nothing too special, there might be better alternatives
Templar ship with Templar weaponry->NOW WE ARE TALKING

Spoiler
My judgement might be affected by enjoying Brawl Minus a little bit too much
[close]
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Ataren on September 20, 2017, 05:42:25 AM
Ok, I know this might be a bad place to ask around such questions but... I am struggling to start the campaign as a Knights Templar with the Nexerelin mod. Any tips on how to start and earn money?
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: LordDavenport on September 24, 2017, 01:32:34 PM
Ok, I know this might be a bad place to ask around such questions but... I am struggling to start the campaign as a Knights Templar with the Nexerelin mod. Any tips on how to start and earn money?

Step 1. Find a fleet of pirates/any unfriendly faction.
Step 2. Murder it.
Step 3. Loot it.
Step 4. Sell the loot to buy more stronk templar stuff.
Step 5. Go to Step 1.

Remember that all of your ships are effectively a size larger for combat effectiveness. So your frigate will go toe to toe with most Destroyers.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: HELMUT on September 24, 2017, 02:05:08 PM
Easier said than done, Templar start is by far the hardest of any factions. You can't really loot things since the starter Martyr have really poor cargo capacities, and require many supplies for maintenance. And that's not counting everyone trying to kill you.

You'll have better results by starting with another faction, and then join the Templars mid-game when you reached a sizeable fleet/treasury to support your crusades. Still, going for a pure Templar fleet is just impractical, but having a few of those ships in a more conventional fleet works much better.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: lechibang on September 26, 2017, 07:05:46 AM
More ships!!!!
Anyway, I had a lot of fun with the ships, especially the Chevalier-class with its Lancelot lance, blasting the foes into oblivion.
Of course, fighting the Templars are always hard as hell because of their shields and especially the Archbishop.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Death_Silence_66 on September 27, 2017, 12:20:49 PM
More ships!!!!
Anyway, I had a lot of fun with the ships, especially the Chevalier-class with its Lancelot lance, blasting the foes into oblivion.
Of course, fighting the Templars are always hard as hell because of their shields and especially the Archbishop.
If you are having difficulty killing the templars, High Intensity Lasers are the way to go. A paragon or oddessy with all HILs can deal with most templar ships without too much trouble.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: cjuicy on September 27, 2017, 02:11:39 PM
More ships!!!!
Anyway, I had a lot of fun with the ships, especially the Chevalier-class with its Lancelot lance, blasting the foes into oblivion.
Of course, fighting the Templars are always hard as hell because of their shields and especially the Archbishop.
If you are having difficulty killing the templars, High Intensity Lasers are the way to go. A paragon or oddessy with all HILs can deal with most templar ships without too much trouble.
But it is also a Paragon... The main way to beat them is to force them into a corner and overwhelm them one by one.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: A Random Jolteon on September 27, 2017, 08:26:21 PM
More ships!!!!
Anyway, I had a lot of fun with the ships, especially the Chevalier-class with its Lancelot lance, blasting the foes into oblivion.
Of course, fighting the Templars are always hard as hell because of their shields and especially the Archbishop.
If you are having difficulty killing the templars, High Intensity Lasers are the way to go. A paragon or oddessy with all HILs can deal with most templar ships without too much trouble.
But it is also a Paragon... The main way to beat them is to force them into a corner and overwhelm them one by one.
What about the "Brutal death by OverPowered Templar Lasery Death Beams"? Shouldn't that be included somewhere?
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Megas on September 29, 2017, 09:40:22 AM
Sentennia is still great; more range than normal energy weapons and homing?  I gladly leave other weapons empty to fit that bad boy in.  It is still one of the best weapons to use even after all of the tweaks over the years because normal energy weapons are generally bad to mediocre.  The only major weakness of Sentennia is windup, which kills shield bypass tricks teleporting ships can do.

Re: Templar start in Nexerelin
I just recover ships and use those instead of Templar ships until I can afford to use them.  Kind of silly since that makes my fleet a Pirate fleet with the Templar flag.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: LordDavenport on September 29, 2017, 10:34:50 PM
Sentennia is still great; more range than normal energy weapons and homing?  I gladly leave other weapons empty to fit that bad boy in.  It is still one of the best weapons to use even after all of the tweaks over the years because normal energy weapons are generally bad to mediocre.  The only major weakness of Sentennia is windup, which kills shield bypass tricks teleporting ships can do.

Re: Templar start in Nexerelin
I just recover ships and use those instead of Templar ships until I can afford to use them.  Kind of silly since that makes my fleet a Pirate fleet with the Templar flag.

Man... after talking about how easy the templar start is, I started a new game with the mid level fleet size for templars in nexterline(frigate and minifrigate). I have remembered how much of a *** it is killing everything with the frigate. Mostly that the jaunt is an awkward distance for engaging ships sitting outside weapons range. Starting to remember how to work the ship now though.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: Botaragno on September 30, 2017, 02:29:29 PM
This faction really doesn't work well with Nexerilin and the ability to take planets.

Because basic Templar fleet comps beat the *** out of every basic fleet they can just swarm the map and nullify the supposed "small numbers" part of their "small numbers but deadly" fleet aspect
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: canned Tomatoes on September 30, 2017, 02:44:43 PM
This faction really doesn't work well with Nexerilin and the ability to take planets.

Because basic Templar fleet comps beat the *** out of every basic fleet they can just swarm the map and nullify the supposed "small numbers" part of their "small numbers but deadly" fleet aspect
In 7.2 I used to request a few large fleets, to distract and invade the templar planets. If you can't beat them with one fleet, bring three. Also, using saboteurs can help with that. It's costly but not impossible.
Also if you see a lot of templar fleets in a system of your faction you can request fleets to take care of them.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: AxleMC131 on September 30, 2017, 03:00:00 PM
... Also, using saboteurs can help with that. It's costly but not impossible.

I thought the Templars couldn't be infiltrated? As in, you can't use saboteurs or agents against them.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8c
Post by: canned Tomatoes on September 30, 2017, 04:50:26 PM
... Also, using saboteurs can help with that. It's costly but not impossible.

I thought the Templars couldn't be infiltrated? As in, you can't use saboteurs or agents against them.
Oh. I usually just got five fleets or so to deal with everything, including the invasion.
Cash isn't of that much importance in the endgame and I usually forget about saboteurs at that point.
That could have been useful in the earlier stages of the game though. My bad.
Title: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on October 01, 2017, 10:36:51 PM
Pretty new effects!  Breaks saves.  Click the reduced-qualify gifs below for bigger, smoother versions.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DigitalSlipperyCaracal-size_restricted.gif) (https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/DigitalSlipperyCaracal)

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PaltryUnderstatedBushbaby-size_restricted.gif) (https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/PaltryUnderstatedBushbaby)

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OffbeatEvenEagle-size_restricted.gif) (https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/OffbeatEvenEagle)

(https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8d.7z)(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png)

(https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8d.7z)Download The Knights Templar 0.9.8d
(http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.8d.7z)Download Mirror
(Requires LazyLib 2.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires GraphicsLib 1.2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10982.0))

- Supported by DynaSector 1.4.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11001.0) (Updated!) -
- Supported by Nexerelin 0.8.2d (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0) (Updated!) -

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Edit TEMPLAR_OPTIONS.ini to enable or disable Knights Templar features, such as the demanding custom shader effects!

Having problems?  Visit the Mod Troubleshooting Guide (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10931)!


Change Log
Version 0.9.8d
- Made Teutons significantly faster and tougher
- Various new projectile and impact effects
- Pax and Sentenia require more flux to fire
- Crucifix/Trucidare no longer requires ammo, but has a significantly higher flux cost
- Minor fixes
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8d
Post by: 00lewnor on October 02, 2017, 09:53:17 AM
Will disabling GraphicsLib ("enableShaders":false) disable the new Templar effects or do you need to disable both separately if your computer can't handle the aforementioned demanding custom shader effects?
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8d
Post by: Dark.Revenant on October 02, 2017, 11:57:52 AM
They're basic sprites, not shader-based.
Title: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Dark.Revenant on October 04, 2017, 12:17:24 AM
Fixed the archive and improved Schism Drive AI for retreat scenarios.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8e.7z)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.8e (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8e.7z)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.8e.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires GraphicsLib 1.2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10982.0))

- Supported by DynaSector 1.4.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11001.0) -
- Supported by Nexerelin 0.8.2d (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0) -

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Edit TEMPLAR_OPTIONS.ini to enable or disable Knights Templar features, such as the demanding custom shader effects!

Having problems?  Visit the Mod Troubleshooting Guide (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10931)!


Change Log
Version 0.9.8e
- AI improvements
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: NITROtbomb on November 15, 2017, 07:54:06 PM
Gotta say, Love the strength of the Templars.
Still gives my strong fleep a reason to run away!
So yeah thanks again for a super cool "endgame" enemy
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: DrakonST on February 01, 2018, 05:00:54 PM
Dark.Revenant, can you realize the idea of your mod user?

I have the idea as it is possible to make yours mod even more interestingly(perhaps not). But I will need to write and translate a lot of text and I don't know your opinion about the third-party ideas. Whether it makes sense to me to voice the idea?
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: fireflambe on February 11, 2018, 11:11:39 AM
Just started playing with this mod again, did something change? It seems like right click doesn't trigger priwen burst anymore, even though the enemy AI still uses it. My AI can't seem to use it either. Does it get disabled on captured ships now or something? I don't see it in the change log
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Snrasha on February 11, 2018, 11:24:06 AM
Just started playing with this mod again, did something change? It seems like right click doesn't trigger priwen burst anymore, even though the enemy AI still uses it. My AI can't seem to use it either. Does it get disabled on captured ships now or something? I don't see it in the change log

If your templar ship have D-mod, he lost the Priwen burst.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Sy on February 11, 2018, 05:31:09 PM
Just started playing with this mod again, did something change? It seems like right click doesn't trigger priwen burst anymore, even though the enemy AI still uses it. My AI can't seem to use it either. Does it get disabled on captured ships now or something? I don't see it in the change log
If your templar ship have D-mod, he lost the Priwen burst.
it's displayed in the tooltip of the built-in Templar hullmods. as Snrasha says, having any d-mod on a Templar ship disables Priwen Burst, and also gives huge penalties on shield effectiveness.

so you usually want to use Templar ships only if you have the money to restore them fully, or when you really need more ships badly. they are a lot weaker and die a lot easier with these two penalties, in addition to whatever penalties the d-mods themselves add.

i think this is mainly to (partially) offset the fact that you'll have a lot more chances to recover Templar ships now than you did pre-0.8, especially if you also have the industry skill that increases the chance. you get more Templar ships, but you'll have to spend a lot of money to make them as powerful as those of your enemies.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: FreedomFighter on February 12, 2018, 02:06:33 AM
How long for each Crusade cycle to happen? I don't want to be on their purge list so i figure to helping them out  ;)
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: DrakonST on February 18, 2018, 07:30:10 AM
It is necessary to remove HP regeneration on templars ships. This doesn't help AI, but makes the player TOO strong. Why?
Spoiler
(https://pp.userapi.com/c840521/v840521587/576c0/ELuENHeQKCQ.jpg)
[close]
But because one destroyer shouldn't kill the station. Even if he is a Templar, it too overpowered.

I just flew to station and kill her, after this i retreat from fight, the only thing that all hasn't allowed me to kill all enemy is combat readiness.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Flying_Whale on February 18, 2018, 11:45:35 AM
Damn it! Stop asking to nerf the templars! Leave at least 1 truly boss-faction!
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Nikopol on February 18, 2018, 12:36:14 PM
Agreed. Templars are my late enemy when almost everyone is dead. They ARE already nerfed a lot. I still have the previous version, where encountering them is a pure horror. I was thinking lately to switch back to that version. It is simply better.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Sy on February 19, 2018, 09:25:23 AM
you can very easily buff their stats by editing the ship_data.csv file. hull points, armor, flux stats, speed, maneuverability, etc all work well for this, without having to mess with any mechanics or scripts.

that's what i did (along with increasing costs as well), because i agree they're overall not as powerful anymore as i like them to be. but if hull regen specifically is something that can be kinda exploited, maybe it really should be removed. it's not like that's the only thing that can make Templar ships powerful. ^^
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Flying_Whale on February 22, 2018, 12:15:23 PM
The templars MUST be VERY powerfull. They MUST be a true horror. In that case any player will have a goal - to gain enough strength to beat them. That makes people WANT to play Starsector more. This faction does not just have overtuned configs - they absolutely deserve their status: sound and visual effects, shield mechanics, the entire philosophy is SPECIAL.

Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: DrakonST on February 22, 2018, 01:54:31 PM
Do you call it horror? And what you tell about it? Just small buffed Hegemony fleet. I see more than 15 battleships on one Hegemony fleet. Its madness.
Spoiler
(https://pp.userapi.com/c831308/v831308205/842e1/X_Zp8CjtqFc.jpg)
[close]
Or it?
Spoiler
(https://pp.userapi.com/c824500/v824500389/93a35/kXlb6_4DgFM.jpg)
[close]

Templars were never VERY terrible opponent. On the contrary, earlier, in 0.7 they were very weak. The player could kill with 50% of their fleet on one destroyer. ONE. DESTROYER. Destroyer just like Hammerhead, Enforcer, Legionary/Centurion(II).

And then player could kill ANY fleet on the majority of battleships or really good cruiser(Modded Dominator from IBB). They could be exterminated using only one battleship of type Conquest, Onslaught, Victory, Maestrom and Paragon.

Now, in 0.8 they became stronger. And if now the player receives very powerful ship with HP regen it ALL BALANCE pulls down.

This HP regen never helps AI with fights but makes the player too strong. TOO STRONG.

For Templars not need a HP regen, for hes need a like 25% buff on hull and armor or better matrix efficiency on cruser/battleship ship sizes.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Snrasha on February 22, 2018, 02:19:51 PM
Well, i found Templar ship very weak for my every campaign where they are just too easy to destroy when you begin to have some power.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Megas on February 22, 2018, 02:31:01 PM
In earlier versions, I considered Templars power creep (not unlike Neutrino before Deathfly took over maintenance).  Once my ships looted some of their hardware (whether ships or weapons), my ships became even more overpowered than normally possible, especially energy reliant ships, and the game gets easier overall.  High-tech ships became much stronger.  Pre-0.8 Astral and Conquest became a nightmare with dual Rolands.  Normally worthless carriers like Condors were Smiter wing cheese platforms.  Skilled pre-0.8 Paragon flagship with the best weapons from Templars sliced through everything, including enemy Templars.

It is like Slash'EM vs. Nethack.  Slash'EM being harder than Nethack early in the game due to stronger enemies, but if player survives and gets superior loot (like firearms) not present in Nethack, the late game becomes a bigger cakewalk (although tempered by careless one-hit gotcha kills).

As long as Templar tech can be looted, Templars steadily becoming mostly balanced yet different in recent versions is good to minimize power creep.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: DrakonST on February 22, 2018, 03:22:08 PM
I haven't found sense to use their weapon on classic ships. Except one. A BADASS TEMPLAR SHOTGUN. This - REAL WEAPON.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Megas on February 22, 2018, 04:01:07 PM
I have abused Sentennia on anything that can mount it, provided I do not include more mods that also add long-ranged energy weapons.  800 range and homing usually beats standard weapons.  The only time I do not use it is when the windup hurts too much, such as Hyperion attempting to shoot ships with Omni shields before they are raised.

@ DrakonST:  Which is the shotgun?  Pax or the Joyese?  Pax is... nothing that special.  Joyese is fun.  Paragon feels like Onslaught with that bad boy, although Juger tends to be a bit more practical on it.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Drokkath on February 22, 2018, 08:53:31 PM
I gotta say I still haven't tried out Templar weapons. I always toss captured Templar ships and their weapons as trophies in my "abandoned" space station vault. :D That's mainly because I rely on my own unique superior versions of the default weaponry when I use my proverbial hammer on them.

I like keeping Templars around as a boss faction, something to steamroll over royally a bit later in the game. I always get satisfaction out of blowing them to shreds and glass puddle.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Snrasha on February 22, 2018, 09:21:04 PM
I have abused Sentennia on anything that can mount it, provided I do not include more mods that also add long-ranged energy weapons.  800 range and homing usually beats standard weapons.  The only time I do not use it is when the windup hurts too much, such as Hyperion attempting to shoot ships with Omni shields before they are raised.

@ DrakonST:  Which is the shotgun?  Pax or the Joyese?  Pax is... nothing that special.  Joyese is fun.  Paragon feels like Onslaught with that bad boy, although Juger tends to be a bit more practical on it.

I found the pax very good for the kite.


Templar need to be strong for me, and they are currently a tiny weak when you are  on late game and know how beat them, so do not nerf them. I will say the same thing than Drokkath.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Megas on February 23, 2018, 05:37:04 AM
Templars being so-called boss faction while you can obtain their tech is like adding a (close but not-quite) god mod.  The difficulty is harder early, then much easier by endgame.  I do not add Templars or similar boss faction mods unless I want to feel like emperor Palpatine drunk on power after I get their stuff.

If Templars are meant to be an unholy terror, then their ships and weapons need to be unobtainable, much like Remnant hulls.  Otherwise, they are simply pinatas once the player can defeat them.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Mr. Nobody on February 23, 2018, 06:03:59 AM
Maybe with the new manufacturer field stuff Alex is adding in the game you could have special buffs/nerfs depending on mismatches (example: templar weapons consume 10 times more flux when mounted on a non templar ship or stuff like that)
So you can have horrendously powerful templar stuff without making it too OP when in player's hands since the whole thing would be a "we took this thing we barely know how it works, welded it to the turret and prayed for the best, don't come looking for me if half of the ships (and it's occupants) just melts when you fire it"
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Histidine on February 23, 2018, 06:11:28 AM
What was the Asgard (D)'s loadout?

Templars ought to have the hull regen they do. A Domain ship with 0.1 hull can still stay alive indefinitely if it keeps its shield up (although retreating is usually the smarter option); a Templar ship in the same state and without regen is guaranteed to die if anything hits its hull, even if its shield is at full strength.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Megas on February 23, 2018, 07:12:52 AM
Templars should already have buffs (via builtin hullmods) that make their weapons easier to use for their hulls.  I forgot exactly what they do, but I think one of them was reducing flux use of their weapons by half or something.

The thing is that some of the Templar weapons are (or were) so much better than standard weapons that it is often worth it to mount a few on non-Templar ships, despite the high cost.

Templars' shields feel a bit like always-on Damper Field.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: DrakonST on February 23, 2018, 07:20:32 AM
Spoiler
(https://sun9-8.userapi.com/c840521/v840521587/576ac/CjQG4noWn3k.jpg)
[close]
Here "Asgard" before I destroyed him.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Drokkath on February 23, 2018, 08:28:39 PM
Templars ought to have the hull regen they do.

I agree. Never thought I'd defend keeping a faction difficult to deal with but, there ya go. I can see the point in what Megas was talking about though and personally I am drunk on power almost all the time in SS so I'm not even sure what sober is like to me anymore. :D

To me Templars and the way game itself works and feels like, touches places in my mind that connect to my memories about playing Homeworld, Homeworld: Cataclysm and Homeworld 2. For some very odd reason I found dealing with opponents like the Kadeshi from the first game, The Beast menace from its expansion, Progenitors from the second game and especially pretty much every ancient/unique ship in the franchise the most interesting.

To stay on topic and to what I was getting at is that the Templars and the core game's redacteds feel a lot like what I've experienced in the Homeworld games. As long as such a powerful foe isn't too off the rails and the player can still (with some extra effort) take them down. Part of being a deep space explorer is to know that the sense of balance for the Universe ranges from extremes of chaos to extremes of order and thus the difference between technology, civilizations and all life in general can be astronomically different. Not expecting the latter sentence to make much sense since the possibilities are seemingly endless in the vast depths of cosmos.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: DrakonST on February 24, 2018, 06:35:57 AM
ALSO, Templars for me just interesting opponent. And here the REAL opponent at me here:
Spoiler
(https://pp.userapi.com/c834302/v834302979/cc219/_AYQo7LD9NQ.jpg)
[close]
Maybe it will seem to you on the present terrible?
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Igncom1 on February 24, 2018, 07:03:19 AM
You could beat that with two or three astral carriers however.

So long as your CR holds up anyway.  ;D
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: DrakonST on February 24, 2018, 07:39:31 AM
You could beat that with two or three astral carriers however.

So long as your CR holds up anyway.  ;D
I don't love aircraft carriers. Too big load of my weak computer.

I killed this fleet by two destroyers "Legionary"(Hes kill all ships of frigate, destroyer and cruiser classes), one pirate battlecruiser "Renegate"(he kill two supercarriers) and one "Paragon"(he kill all battleships). Also, "Dominius" it most baddest capital ship. Total unless ship, better to take pirate battlecruisers, like a Dragon. He a awesome.

P. S. A hes (IG) version is not bad ship.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Megas on February 24, 2018, 07:52:48 AM
Yes, Templars and Remnants feel very much alike, at least in regards to coloration and outsider/hidden character feel.  When I see Remnants, I think of Templars, until combat begins.
Title: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on April 23, 2018, 04:35:21 AM
It had to be done.

(http://i.imgur.com/J7kN5X4.png) (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8f.7z)

Download The Knights Templar 0.9.8f (https://bitbucket.org/DarkRevenant/knights-templar/downloads/Templars%200.9.8f.7z)
Download Mirror (http://www.sc2mafia.com/Starsector/Templars%200.9.8f.7z)
(Requires LazyLib 2.2 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0))
(Requires GraphicsLib 1.2.1 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10982.0))

- Supported by DynaSector 1.4.4 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11001.0) (Updated!) -
- Supported by Nexerelin 0.8.3e (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9175.0) (Updated!) -

We also recommend Version Checker (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=8181) to notify you when an update is ready.

Edit TEMPLAR_OPTIONS.ini to enable or disable Knights Templar features, such as the demanding custom shader effects!

Having problems?  Visit the Mod Troubleshooting Guide (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10931)!


Change Log
Version 0.9.8f
- Significantly reduced Crucifix range
- Significantly reduced Crucifix HP
- Significantly reduced Crucifix rate of fire
- Significantly reduced Crucifix flux cost
- Renamed Crucifix MRM to Crucific CSM
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: Flying_Whale on April 23, 2018, 12:45:10 PM
Every update is a nerf. Now those missiles. Don't wanna play SS now.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: Takion Kasukedo on April 23, 2018, 08:28:58 PM
...Perhaps a buff to something like what the Martyr uses as a burst system?

In exchange for...hmm...nah seems like the mod's weapons are slightly ok in that aspect. Curious to see the Crucifix change.

I am curious to see a new Templar ship though. Something like a bigger Martyr, like...I dunno. Might come up with something. Or you would. Time will tell.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: Menumorut on May 05, 2018, 12:52:53 PM
Where can i buy the Chevalier ship?
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: Sy on May 05, 2018, 01:28:58 PM
Where can i buy the Chevalier ship?
welcome to the forum! ^^

you can't buy Templar ships anywhere (unless you're playing as Templars yourself in Nexerelin, but that's difficult). you can only acquire them by defeating them in battle and recovering any disabled ships afterwards. they also have reduced chance to be recoverable, though in large battles you should still get a decent number of pickings.

you can sometimes find some Templar weapons for sale in normal markets, but that's also rare.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: Menumorut on May 06, 2018, 07:07:10 AM
Glad to be here!
I am playing as them, but I can't see the ship in their market.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: Menumorut on May 06, 2018, 10:53:26 AM
Nevermind my previous question. I've captured a pirate station, and that station is now selling the Chevalier. Noice!
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: DrakonST on August 21, 2018, 09:58:39 PM
Why Templars ships with officers don't receive damage from kinetic weapons? Gauss cannons shots of frigate and no any effect. But if this frigate don`t have a officer he will be die very fast after little counts of shots.

On SS 0.7 gauss - its a best weapon against templars. Now it worst weapon. Why?
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: Dark.Revenant on August 25, 2018, 04:14:31 PM
Why Templars ships with officers don't receive damage from kinetic weapons? Gauss cannons shots of frigate and no any effect. But if this frigate don`t have a officer he will be die very fast after little counts of shots.

On SS 0.7 gauss - its a best weapon against templars. Now it worst weapon. Why?

This is intentional.  Officer skills make a big difference for Templar ships, especially Jesuits.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on August 29, 2018, 08:52:01 PM
Why Templars ships with officers don't receive damage from kinetic weapons? Gauss cannons shots of frigate and no any effect. But if this frigate don`t have a officer he will be die very fast after little counts of shots.

On SS 0.7 gauss - its a best weapon against templars. Now it worst weapon. Why?
Advanced Countermeasures 1.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: DrakonST on August 30, 2018, 05:14:06 AM
I know. But why Templars at the same time have bonuses for armor and for shield for Templars matrix?
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8e
Post by: Chroma on August 30, 2018, 01:18:01 PM
ALSO, Templars for me just interesting opponent. And here the REAL opponent at me here:

Templar are supposed to be more than 'just interesting opponent' they're supposed to be an end-game challenge. That's why Templars at the same time have bonuses for armor and for shield for Templars matrix.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: DrakonST on September 05, 2018, 05:55:09 AM
It is more similar to a bug or laziness to rewrite matrix script. Just not normal when after game update 95% of ships which could be applied against Templars earlier now total useless.

Early it was possible to made fleet with 5 Onslaughts and fight agains most Templars fleets. Now it is a suicide. This updating has killed a variety of fights with them. If you really want to fight agains Templars you dont have any variants to fit you fleet. You need play only as Tri-Tachion commander and use 2 their ships. Take 1x"Aurora" for little fleets and 1x"Paragon" for all other fleets on solo fights, no any other effective variants. Awesome variety of game.

This overhelming bonuses on Templars matrix its not normal. Total not normal when enemy just dont taking any damage. Need to some balance work with this matrix. Like a disable some bonuses for matrix or lower bonuses effectivety for their on 50%.

Not normal when killing one frigate take more time than killing capital ship. Not normal when SHIELD dont recivie any damage from KINETIC weapons, phhh... matrix just dont take any damage from most weapons on sector. And absolutely not normal when little "Crusader" can kill a "Asgard" battlestation. For comparison: Earlier they afraid Onslaught-class capital.

I don't say that they can't be killed. I killed a great number of Templars on an extent of the game. I killed the fleet which 5 "Archbishops". And it isn't difficult provided that the player have just a one "Paragon". But when mod doesn't leave other choices - it not normal.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: MesoTroniK on September 05, 2018, 09:37:20 PM
Your increase of the player and officer level caps is greatly magnifying the perceived issues you describe Drakon. The overwhelming bonus, is made overwhelming by such modifications.
Title: Re: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f
Post by: TaLaR on September 05, 2018, 10:57:47 PM
I think Drakon has a point. If Templars have massive reduction vs Kinetic and HE due to easily available character skills, it's all up to energy damage. And as far as I remember they have massive resist to beams built into their shields too.
So... hard flux ener