Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Blog Posts => Topic started by: Alex on April 16, 2014, 08:26:30 PM
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Blog post here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2014/04/16/comm-relays/).
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Hmm, are the more interactivity planned for comm relays?
I'm assuming so, is it possible to place your own? disrupt certain comm relays?
And is possible to just purchase intel (either at the relay or elsewhere) instead of having to use a sniffer?
Does this also mean custom station graphics is now possible? :D
oh and, obligatory Neat :P
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You know that I'm so drawing you a comm relay image now, right?
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David would rather draw ships. ;D
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Hmm, are the more interactivity planned for comm relays?
I'm assuming so, is it possible to place your own? disrupt certain comm relays?
All stuff I've been thinking about, but whether it'll be in the next release depends on how important it is to the functioning of the other features in the release. For example, placing your own falls very much outside the scope (and would be more of a possibility for a release focused, say, on outpost-building.)
And is possible to just purchase intel (either at the relay or elsewhere) instead of having to use a sniffer?
Maybe at some point. Thinking about it, but want to keep things fairly focused for the next release.
Does this also mean custom station graphics is now possible? :D
Yes, along with generally custom campaign entities.
You know that I'm so drawing you a comm relay image now, right?
Did I accidentally engage in spite-driven development? :) That stuff really works!
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Oooh~
Looking forward to this.
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This should help provide more interesting things to do; I'm also generally interested in the potential further developments of the campaign layer tied into the upcoming intel mechanic. Interesting stuff alright, and I'm looking forward to seeing more.
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"Cliche excited comment" : D
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Fleet - Memory + dialogues + interacting with objects and + change-able sprites
Here comes some intense mods.
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ooooo fancy. i like that the battle objectives are being redone to look more like something dropped off by a ship, in theory they'd have to be smaller than a fighter then because fighters are capable of capturing or "deploying" those objectives same goes for frigates. though i suppose the objective could just be closer to the screen. *handwave*
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NPC conversations! Yes!
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Hue~ i'm going to have fun with those. <3
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Harass a fleet enough, maybe they will just surrender themselves to you instead of floating with 0cr awaiting hot death?
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If i understand correctly the purpose of comm relays: You can ignore them and still receive the news but hacking them give you additional information about the events in the system (location of the event, fleet numbers etc... ), right?
Also fleet memory seems very interesting, i'm just worried that if a fleet can remember every encounters since its "birth", won't it eventually slow down lower-end PCs?
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If i understand correctly the purpose of comm relays: You can ignore them and still receive the news but hacking them give you additional information about the events in the system (location of the event, fleet numbers etc... ), right?
Right.
Also fleet memory seems very interesting, i'm just worried that if a fleet can remember every encounters since its "birth", won't it eventually slow down lower-end PCs?
First off, it's largely player-centric. Second, what actually gets remembered is up to how that specific interaction is coded. Third, memory values can have an expiration time, which is handy for all sorts of things, including it not getting cluttered up with things that don't matter anymore.
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"You killed a Buffalo in my fleet twenty play-hours ago! Now i upgraded my fleet and have tonnes of capital ships and captured pirate and tri-tachyon vessels and wil hound you till the end of time!"
But seriously, i may be alone in thinking framework development in a game is more exciting than content. Anyone can make content, but new off the wall features? Pshht.
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That is all kinds of win. Solid!
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What I like to know is can I take over the comm relay by force? Can other factions remove comm sniffers once you install yours (or vice-versa if I own the relay). Eventually, my would-be overlord will be strong enough to kill any and all fleets (given skillful play) that oppose him, and will not care about breaking Hegemony law. (On second thought, breaking Hegemony law equals combat, and combat equals more XP, loot, and power!)
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When you are installing the comm sniffer, will you not get caught as easily if you use a phase cloak capable ship?
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Andy raises a good question.
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My guess is your phase cloak will have to power down in order to interact with the comm relay. Then again, I could be completely wrong.
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I would think that phase ships are no harder to find than others since they glow like bright neon while phased. All phase cloak is good for is imitating fortress shield.
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What I like to know is can I take over the comm relay by force?
Pretty much same answer as to FlashFrozen's comments :) Outside the next update's scope, etc.
Can other factions remove comm sniffers once you install yours
Haven't decided yet.
When you are installing the comm sniffer, will you not get caught as easily if you use a phase cloak capable ship?
Not at the moment. I still want to look at special phase ship mechanics in the campaign, though, so that'll be a good time to look at this too. If it's done in a general-enough way (i.e. your fleet becomes harder to track down), that's the sort of thing that would "just work", without needing any special code.
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Exciting stuff, thanks for building this with the general API in mind too!
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Will we be able to do stuff like insult or "ass kiss" the AI and have it effect them? Like being able to fly up to a pirate ship with a weak fleet or single frig and contact them, insult them and then run like hell to your storage station where your "real" fleet is stored?
Also, will admirals "spread" information about you? Like you do the above scenario and the commander tells/ cries to all of his buddies about what happened and the next time you try it, they either ignore you, bring a bigger fleet, and/ or set a trap at said storage location.
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I admire your diligence in laying down solid groundwork instead of rushing to exciting content creation, Alex. I really think it will pay off in the long run, especially when considering modability.
Just two little things:
- Comm relays seem to be displayed as far bigger than stations. Looks strange.
- The blue progress bar seems a bit out of place outside its original menu. Maybe give it the same greenish color the tab bar has? (Or the other way round.)
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The discussion at the end reminded me of a good quote.
“ Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. ”
- Brian Kernighan
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Will we be able to do stuff like insult or "ass kiss" the AI and have it effect them? Like being able to fly up to a pirate ship with a weak fleet or single frig and contact them, insult them and then run like hell to your storage station where your "real" fleet is stored?
Also, will admirals "spread" information about you? Like you do the above scenario and the commander tells/ cries to all of his buddies about what happened and the next time you try it, they either ignore you, bring a bigger fleet, and/ or set a trap at said storage location.
Just to clear something up - there's a framework for dialogue, yeah, but that doesn't mean there's new dialogue everywhere. That's going to be a separate effort.
The answer to any "will we..." type of question is either "maybe" or "no"; in this case it's "maybe", with a side of "it depends" :)
But seriously, i may be alone in thinking framework development in a game is more exciting than content. Anyone can make content, but new off the wall features? Pshht.
I think both are equally important. Can't have one without the other, etc. The line is blurry, too.
I really think it will pay off in the long run, especially when considering modability.
It's a point where the benefits both to the core game and to modability align, I think, since adding content is a big deal for both. In general, I'm finding myself doing things in a modable way because it's actually easier. I think it's the result of the modding-related architecture being more settled now.
- Comm relays seem to be displayed as far bigger than stations. Looks strange.
I don't know, right now I'm thinking of them as gigantic installations, with a core of irreplaceable high-tech machinery. (Broadcasting across the gulf between the stars can't be easy, right?) We'll see, though.
- The blue progress bar seems a bit out of place outside its original menu. Maybe give it the same greenish color the tab bar has? (Or the other way round.)
Hmm, yeah. Tried another color (the more cyan-ish), that seems to be a bit better.
The discussion at the end reminded me of a good quote.
“ Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. ”
- Brian Kernighan
Ha! Yeah, that nails it.
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I don't know, right now I'm thinking of them as gigantic installations, with a core of irreplaceable high-tech machinery. (Broadcasting across the gulf between the stars can't be easy, right?) We'll see, though.
Mh, it just seems unlikely to me that such a gigantic installation, so close to inhabited planets/stations, is unmanned. It seems very uneconomical. I could much more easily imagine a small automated relay near a planet, a big manned comm station (probably with additional functions) near a planet, or a big automated relay in outer space.
Another idea, you probably thought of it long ago, but anyway: It would be really interesting if we could manipulate the data in a relay to deceive other entities. For example, luring a defense fleet away by faking reports of a pirate attack. Or lure in traders with reports of shortages.
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Local array in a system, and then one in hyperspace?
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@Gothars Well, the Domain was a big advocate on control. Having a comms system entirely automated would be handy in case some anti-domain rebellion was using it to transmit propaganda to the people of the sector. Then they could just switch it off, potentially stopping the rebellion's spread, if not impeding it.
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It's entirely plausible that spending a lot of time around a giant, somewhat mysterious, high-tech installation capable of interstellar high-bandwidth FTL communication might be either unpleasant or actively unhealthy. That's how I'd spin it, anyway.
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I don't know, right now I'm thinking of them as gigantic installations, with a core of irreplaceable high-tech machinery. (Broadcasting across the gulf between the stars can't be easy, right?) We'll see, though.
Mh, it just seems unlikely to me that such a gigantic installation, so close to inhabited planets/stations, is unmanned. It seems very uneconomical. I could much more easily imagine a small automated relay near a planet, a big manned comm station (probably with additional functions) near a planet, or a big automated relay in outer space.
It's entirely plausible that spending a lot of time around a giant, somewhat mysterious, high-tech installation capable of interstellar high-bandwidth FTL communication might be either unpleasant or actively unhealthy. That's how I'd spin it, anyway.
That does sound plausible, and would explain why one isn't just built into every station. Let's see where David wants to go with it, haven't actually talked to him about that. Might not be too relevant for the next release, except for the sprite size.
Another idea, you probably thought of it long ago, but anyway: It would be really interesting if we could manipulate the data in a relay to deceive other entities. For example, luring a defense fleet away by faking reports of a pirate attack. Or lure in traders with reports of shortages.
Yeah, that sounds like fun. I don't think it'd actually require a hidden layer of data passing around for the AI to base decisions on; in any case, that seems like it wouldn't be the right way to go about it, as it'd be difficult to produce the right result. Already thinking about stuff like fake distress calls, too. Probably out of the scope for the next update, but it's fun to get into stuff like that!
Local array in a system, and then one in hyperspace?
If this is a question to me, I'm not 100% sure what you mean :)
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If this is a question to me, I'm not 100% sure what you mean :)
think he means theres a relay in hyper for FTL comms and one in system for system wide comms(dont know if this is what he ment but its what i think would fit)
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When I saw the section of the web post that talked about spreadsheets of information and logic systems I must admit I got very excited. If you could actually create a logic based system for the interaction of people within your game then I will gladly salute you and praise you for eternity. Other than that this is a very interesting update and I'm eagerly awaiting the next patch.
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Wut is logic systems?
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Forum *robutt* alert! Dang_botters are all over the place now.
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Wait, you're telling me that's a bot? Did I miss something? How much Skynet is it gonna get?
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If this is a question to me, I'm not 100% sure what you mean :)
think he means theres a relay in hyper for FTL comms and one in system for system wide comms(dont know if this is what he ment but its what i think would fit)
If that's the question: there relays are all in-system at the moment. May put one here and there in hyperspace, though.
When I saw the section of the web post that talked about spreadsheets of information and logic systems I must admit I got very excited. If you could actually create a logic based system for the interaction of people within your game then I will gladly salute you and praise you for eternity. Other than that this is a very interesting update and I'm eagerly awaiting the next patch.
"Logic" is awfully vague, isn't it? :) So, I'm not entirely sure just what you mean.
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By logic it probably means that it will allow you to have characters. Have them have memories, so as to let them have different reactions to different things. Have communication options which will have effects. Have events alter those memories.
And, naturally, API allowing modders to manipulate all of that.
Thats what I read it as anyhow.
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I really think you should flesh out the intelligence market into it's own ughh... thing. To my understanding comm relays are a place that collects system wide information and broadcasts it around the system and to other systems. Each faction will have comm stations of their own (and maybe some independent ones) where information that group receives is gathered.
Here's what I think, there should be levels of intelligence ranging from low which anyone can see except enemies of the faction eg. planetary weather, right up to high level eg. future battle plans. Being friendly with the faction will access higher levels as will planting comm sniffers of varying levels. This could lead to all sorts of dynamic espionage missions such hacking one factions comm relay and selling the information to a rival faction or scouting a planet for information to give to a faction.
Secondly I feel that comm relays are too valuable to be left alone. They should be guarded or the surrounding space be considered out of bounds and being in that space will prompt a faction response if seen. Instead information will be received through a news interface perhaps and in turn placing comm sniffers will be more risky but more rewarding.
Finally something that isn't really related to comm relays but I feel some sort of visibility system should be included (just a simple one), smaller fleets are less detectable or something. I only bring this up because at the moment, the way I see it, the safest way perform a stealthy bugging mission would be to assemble your entire fleet and take those motha's head on which just doesn't feel right.
Please tell me what you think and I don't expect this in the next update, this is more of an overall plan.
Oh and keep up the great work ;)
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Hi, and welcome to the forum :)
As far as fleshing out intelligence, that's very much the idea. The events system (talked about here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2014/03/02/on-trade-design/)) is designed with this in mind. It's flexible enough to allow for various levels of fleshing out, so we'll just have to see how much feels right.
Secondly I feel that comm relays are too valuable to be left alone. They should be guarded or the surrounding space be considered out of bounds and being in that space will prompt a faction response if seen. Instead information will be received through a news interface perhaps and in turn placing comm sniffers will be more risky but more rewarding.
Pretty much how it already works! Will most likely ensure there are patrol near relays, too.
Finally something that isn't really related to comm relays but I feel some sort of visibility system should be included (just a simple one), smaller fleets are less detectable or something. I only bring this up because at the moment, the way I see it, the safest way perform a stealthy bugging mission would be to assemble your entire fleet and take those motha's head on which just doesn't feel right.
I've been thinking about this myself, for a while. I'd like to take some time at some point and take a closer look at it; there are some ideas but I don't quite want to discuss them because, well, they're just not ready for it.
All in all, though, what you're saying is very much in line with how I'm thinking about it, with the caveat that the devil is in the details.
Oh and keep up the great work ;)
Thanks for your support :)