Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Lucax on August 21, 2013, 07:37:04 AM
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Hi, I'm new here, but I've been following Starsector since 0.3x. I've played some similar games, when it comes to handling a ship, but also for general gameplay: Mount and Blade, obviously.
I don't think I'm the only one, but I don't like controlling big ships. Cruisers, capital ships, well, anything larger than a frigate. ;D
In early game, I usually enjoy the ride alone in pretty much any frigate, except the Brawler for some reason, so everything is fine.
In late game however, I feel quite useless in my tiny frigate. I always go for the Hyperion since it exists, and especially now that it can blink all over the place. To me it's the only correct choice, and I think it's a problem, but I'll get to that.
I try to invest in some combat skills, but I know they would be way more useful (or rather, way less pointless) if I were in a larger ship. And the "hit and run forever" tactic isn't going to work anymore, since CR is going to drop faster for frigates, if I recall correctly.
Everytime I feel like I'm better off investing in tech or leadership skills, since it would upgrade my frigate as much as the rest of my fleet.
That's where my idea comes in. I don't know if "overtuning" is the right name for it. It would almost be like refitting a ship, except instead of using OP, it increases the CP cost of the ship and it costs a great deal of credits, and you would be able to upgrade the ship more overall.
I don't really know what the best shape for it would be, but I think being able to directly increase dealt damage, and decrease damage taken by a percentage would be a good start. In fact, it could have similar effects to the combat skill tree. Maybe it would allow to change the ship system, or unlock more hull mods for more customization depth. Who knows, a Brawler with a phase teleporter might be useful after all...
Just increasing the OP of the ship would make it worse, as we would just rack up all available hull mods, throwing off the specialization aspect. Changing hardpoint and turret sizes and numbers would feel off too, for obvious reasons.
In short, it would allow to make any frigate (or any ship) as (or even more) powerful and important as a capital ship, while still played like the same ship, and costing about as much as a capital, both in credits and in CP. The cost, both in CP and credits, wouldn't be linear of course, but it wouldn't have a limit, unlike refitting. That's where all the balance difficulty is at I guess.
I think it would be something great to evolve with for players who don't like excessively big fleets, and in the future, trade and industry, or just players who have so much cash that they don't have a clue what to do with it.
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I really like the idea overall.
Having some sort of permanent level-up mechanics for individual ships that comes with an increased CR cost (and personally, I'd like to see it cost some money, too) sounds great.
Now, I'm not entirely sure that the whole CP-degrades-over-battle thing for Frigates is a great idea, personally, largely because of their importance to players who prefer a more arcade style of play. But I've decided to be patient and see how it plays before deciding whether to mod it out of existence :)
Anyhow, I think that "overtuning" should be something that has diminishing effects per hull size, not just be applicable to Frigates.
For example:
2/1.5/0.5/0.125 % more damage, per Overtuning level.
I'm not sure I agree with the OPs not being a bonus. Frigates aren't suffering from all-being-the-same issues because they can now carry a lot more Hull Mods than they used to be able to do, due to Tech / Combat upgrades. If anything, it's made them much more powerful and vital. However, that's arguable either way.
Also, it would finally give Alex a use for that button currently marked "convert" :D
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Now, I'm not entirely sure that the whole CP-degrades-over-battle thing for Frigates is a great idea, personally, largely because of their importance to players who prefer a more arcade style of play. But I've decided to be patient and see how it plays before deciding whether to mod it out of existence :)
I agree with that. Though maybe it's a good idea in general, I think overtuning should allow to remove this effect from the frigate to make it treated like a capital if it bothers the player too much. But as you say, we speak of it before having tried it ;D
Anyhow, I think that "overtuning" should be something that has diminishing effects per hull size, not just be applicable to Frigates.
For example:
2/1.5/0.5/0.125 % more damage, per Overtuning level.
Yes exactly, I forgot to mention that. Also, cheaper ships of the same class would also have cheaper upgrades, to all make them useful as a player ship.
I'm not sure I agree with the OPs not being a bonus. Frigates aren't suffering from all-being-the-same issues because they can now carry a lot more Hull Mods than they used to be able to do, due to Tech / Combat upgrades. If anything, it's made them much more powerful and vital. However, that's arguable either way.
I tried a lot to mod ships to have much more OP, it's the simplest change to try to make it match a capital, but it feels really unbalanced. Ships that are low tech get full coverage shields out of nowhere, and it changes the way they're played too much.
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I tried a lot to mod ships to have much more OP, it's the simplest change to try to make it match a capital, but it feels really unbalanced. Ships that are low tech get full coverage shields out of nowhere, and it changes the way they're played too much.
I had kind of the opposite experience; it finally made a lot of Frigates actually viable, which was a big deal.
I'm not really a fan of seeing a bunch of ships in a game like this that are a waste of FP (or, in the future, CR- but I don't see the "low CR for low-tech" idea as working all that well, if high-tech still stomps low without having to try all that hard). But that's another issue and it's largely one of preference about balance and structure, which is why I mod things instead of arguing with Alex all day ;)
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Hm... I don't think a generic frigate upgrade mechanic is the right way to go - mostly because of the Hyperion, which really doesn't need the help.
However, I do think that there should be an alternative to the Hyperion for a player who wants to be flying a frigate; right now, the Hyperion is a sort of frigate-shaped cruiser in terms of both price and combat power - but it's the only such ship in-game. I'd like for their to be at least one each low and mid-tech equivalent.
That said, I do think you're missing out by staying with frigates. The Apogee in particular is a reasonably mobile cruiser; take a look at the variants I posted here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5446.msg85273#msg85273). And the Conquest... ahh, that's a wonderful ship once you have the skills to support it. Don't even try to fly one without at least five points in tech, and preferably maxed tech and combat. And you'll probably have to experiment a bit to get a build that works for you - Conquest loadouts, based on what threads I've read, tend to be highly individualized. My preferred Conquest build is 2x MIRV launcher (use these for short-range armor-breaking - unlike torpedos, you don't need to turn to face your target), 2x storm needler (put these in the front two large turret slots, since they're relatively short range), 2x mjolnir, 4x heavy needler, and burst PD in all the energy turret slots (including 2x heavy burst PD in the mediums - they should have the range to actually shoot down sabots on occasion). Integrated targeting is of course a must-have, as is extended shields and accelerated shields and as many vents as you can fit. If you're planning on fighting a Paragon, you'll also need something to deal with EMP damage (or be really paranoid about always keeping your shields on and aimed to catch the tachyon lance hits).
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Hi and welcome to the forum Lucax :)
And the "hit and run forever" tactic isn't going to work anymore, since CR is going to drop faster for frigates, if I recall correctly.
Yeah, and here's the problem.
As I understand it, it is a deliberate design choice to make a lengthy battle of attrition with fast ships impossible. Unfortunately for you, your preferred playstile will not get cut from the game accidentally, but cutting it is the whole point of letting frigates lose CR over time.
So obviously adding in a new way to allow lengthy pin-prick tactics with faster ships (and as I understand it, that lies at the core of your idea) is unlikely to make it into the game.
Mh... then again one could argue that the main problem about these tactics is that you are sometimes forced into them (E.G. if your frigate is intercepted by a bigger fleet), which can be very boring for a player who's uninterested in that playstile. If you could only apply them after deliberately designing your character and fleet that way in advance, it should be fine.
So, maybe allowing to buy very costly upgrades for reduced CR loss rate and some other benefits to carve out Starsector's arcady site could work. I, personally, wouldn't touch it, though. Mh, and it should be objectively weaker then building a proper fleet, lest people feel compelled to play that way.
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I tried a lot to mod ships to have much more OP, it's the simplest change to try to make it match a capital, but it feels really unbalanced. Ships that are low tech get full coverage shields out of nowhere, and it changes the way they're played too much.
I had kind of the opposite experience; it finally made a lot of Frigates actually viable, which was a big deal.
I'm not really a fan of seeing a bunch of ships in a game like this that are a waste of FP (or, in the future, CR- but I don't see the "low CR for low-tech" idea as working all that well, if high-tech still stomps low without having to try all that hard). But that's another issue and it's largely one of preference about balance and structure, which is why I mod things instead of arguing with Alex all day ;)
Increasing OP does make any ship viable, it's just a question of balance I guess. And it still has its limits, unless more hull mods get added.
Hm... I don't think a generic frigate upgrade mechanic is the right way to go - mostly because of the Hyperion, which really doesn't need the help.
However, I do think that there should be an alternative to the Hyperion for a player who wants to be flying a frigate; right now, the Hyperion is a sort of frigate-shaped cruiser in terms of both price and combat power - but it's the only such ship in-game. I'd like for their to be at least one each low and mid-tech equivalent.
That said, I do think you're missing out by staying with frigates. The Apogee in particular is a reasonably mobile cruiser; take a look at the variants I posted here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5446.msg85273#msg85273). And the Conquest... ahh, that's a wonderful ship once you have the skills to support it. Don't even try to fly one without at least five points in tech, and preferably maxed tech and combat. And you'll probably have to experiment a bit to get a build that works for you - Conquest loadouts, based on what threads I've read, tend to be highly individualized. My preferred Conquest build is 2x MIRV launcher (use these for short-range armor-breaking - unlike torpedos, you don't need to turn to face your target), 2x storm needler (put these in the front two large turret slots, since they're relatively short range), 2x mjolnir, 4x heavy needler, and burst PD in all the energy turret slots (including 2x heavy burst PD in the mediums - they should have the range to actually shoot down sabots on occasion). Integrated targeting is of course a must-have, as is extended shields and accelerated shields and as many vents as you can fit. If you're planning on fighting a Paragon, you'll also need something to deal with EMP damage (or be really paranoid about always keeping your shields on and aimed to catch the tachyon lance hits).
Better and more expensive ship hull means more expensive upgrades, so the Hyperion would be upgradeable like other ships, just at a higher cost. But since the upgrades would be endless and cost more each level, that means it is less upgradeable than other ships, in a way. It's just a matter of balance here.
I have to say the Conquest feels the most agile and frigate-ish among the capitals. That being said, no matter how much you upgrade its speed or steering, it's still a huge target, and it can't flank bigger ships. But it's fine, because there is no such thing. :D
Mh... then again one could argue that the main problem about these tactics is that you are sometimes forced into them (E.G. if your frigate is intercepted by a bigger fleet), which can be very boring for a player who's uninterested in that playstile. If you could only apply them after deliberately designing your character and fleet that way in advance, it should be fine.
Exactly. I don't like fights that last forever, but I don't really like my own ship getting useless over time either. I do like flanking ships, making use of the extra agility etc. And the fact that the Hyperion, the best player frigate, has the best system to hit and run, just forces the player to do that, if he wants to be effective. I can't wait for the new update, I just hope that frigates don't go Excalibur to potato in less than five minutes.
And yes, this mechanic should really be reserved for late game. Getting an OP ship in early game would break the fine early game Starsector already has :)
Another idea I had, and maybe would be simpelr, was to make different effects in the combat skill tree depending on the size of your ship. This way the overall bonus to a fleet would be as useful if you're in a frigate as in a capital.
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As I understand it, it is a deliberate design choice to make a lengthy battle of attrition with fast ships impossible. Unfortunately for you, your preferred playstile will not get cut from the game accidentally, but cutting it is the whole point of letting frigates lose CR over time.
Yeah, I really wonder if this is a good idea.
As I said earlier, this is one of those things that's almost impossible to balance right; either it's too much, and Frigates are effectively nerfed to the point of uselessness (or at the least, the vast majority; the Hyperion, ironically, will feel the least pain) or it's so little that play is effectively as it always has been, except for the really high-end, uber-skill players not being able to kite fleets to death with one Frigate... so they'll use two, or three, or whatever.
Honestly, I think that the better solution is to treat the speed "problem" as an inherent part of how things work. Big, lumbering fleets can't catch little fast ships; if you want to defeat them, buy fighters or small fast ships of your own, end of story. If there aren't weapons that are sufficiently balanced to do consistent Frigate-kill, then change the weapons a bit and fix the problem.
Anyhow, we'll see how it all works out when we see how it works out.
So, maybe allowing to buy very costly upgrades for reduced CR loss rate and some other benefits to carve out Starsector's arcady site could work. I, personally, wouldn't touch it, though. Mh, and it should be objectively weaker then building a proper fleet, lest people feel compelled to play that way.
I can't see how it's anything but that way right now, so why did it need to be changed? Not really understanding the logic here; this is already a game where the green-eyeshades approach has been emphasized over twitch, to my mind at least to its detriment (amongst other issues, it just makes high-end twitch much easier the way things work right now, and it can't ever really go any other way- any advantages from number-stacking invariably favors the high-skill player much more than the low-skill player- see what happens when you give a newbie a good Conquest build, for example).
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So, maybe allowing to buy very costly upgrades for reduced CR loss rate and some other benefits to carve out Starsector's arcady site could work.
I can't see how it's anything but that way right now, so why did it need to be changed?
It is a problem, though. I have been in involuntary attrition-battles relatively often, or at least it feels often because it takes so long do get out of it. If you run into a superior fleet (or a battle goes awry) your choice is often between giving up on the last ~30 minutes of campaign progress or taking ~20 minutes to prick the enemy to death with a frigate and the ever same motions.
The latter option
- is no fun (to me)
- wastes player time
- makes the AI seem stupid and predictable
- feels like cheating (the AI can't do anything comparable after all)
- and through this, brakes immersion
And still, I feel like I have to to this dance because it is the best I can do for my campaign progress. With the new version the best choice will be to flee, which will likely be much more fun thanks to the new escape scenario.
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I hear you (on the boring grind-it-all thing) and I agree with that. I'm just a bit concerned here; if that's the core problem, it's an issue largely of balance; it didn't need a fundamental shift in what's useful.
If the Escape mechanics worked better, it'd probably be a bit less of a hassle.
Then again, I'm of the opinion that Escape should force you to deploy stuff, and if that means you lose things, you lose things, and there is no safety net. Getting caught by vastly-superior fleets should suck. Figuring out how to escape anyhow should be awesome.
I think that the issue then becomes one of "why can't monster battleships handle a lowly Frigate", but that's balance stuff that can be fixed fairly easily.
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I wouldn't worry about balance just yet, a quick look into (the depths of) the indev patch notes shows that alex did take it into account (at least somewhat)
-Increased top speed and acceleration for most frigates
-Adjusted deployment points values for all ships and fighter wings - reduced for a few frigates, raised slightly for larger ships
so frigs will be even faster cheaper to deploy (and cheaper still if you consider it in relative to larger ships)
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It's basically impossible to evaluate how this works out until we get the new engagement system. From the description you should be able to needle with fast ships, but in a series of hit-and-run encounters rather than within a single very long encounter.
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What if you could overclock your ship, but doing so had serious disadvantages?
For example, I overclock my Tempest. It moves faster and deals more damage, but bits of it overheat. I go for a long burn; I flame out.
I shoot my weapons too much, I have an ammunition explosion. Because I'm eking so much power from the ship's reactor the CR drops faster, but all the while I'm moving faster, hitting harder, but when I turn too sharply the g force ruptures a coolant tank and everyone on the lower decks of my ship freezes to death.
I think what is needed, is to find a way of weakening frigates when against a superior force, without it seeming arbitrary or unfair. A higher risk higher reward type system.
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Well they have a CR drain unique to them. That's pretty weakening.
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they also all got a huge boost in speed, that's not too bad either
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Well I'd rather have an average frigate than an unreliable one. If upgrades would have downsides, they'd better not cost much...
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What if Combat skills were more effective on smaller ships?
Capital gets 50%
Cruiser gets 100%
Destroyer gets 150%
Frigate gets 200%
So, at +10% damage currently for the attribute itself, would get +20% for frigates, but only +5% for capital ships. Would apply to all the damage related bonuses, but not to the mobility bonuses. Unsure about flux.
Or, alternatively, base it on fleet point size, to avoid the hyperion getting frigate level bonuses considering it's cost, power, and fleet point size.
Am trying to write a mod to do this, but the variables being passed into the update function don't seem to be entirely valid.
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What if Combat skills were more effective on smaller ships?
Capital gets 50%
Cruiser gets 100%
Destroyer gets 150%
Frigate gets 200%
So, at +10% damage currently for the attribute itself, would get +20% for frigates, but only +5% for capital ships. Would apply to all the damage related bonuses, but not to the mobility bonuses. Unsure about flux.
Or, alternatively, base it on fleet point size, to avoid the hyperion getting frigate level bonuses considering it's cost, power, and fleet point size.
Am trying to write a mod to do this, but the variables being passed into the update function don't seem to be entirely valid.
I think it would be best that the bonuses depend on ship size. Making it depend on multiple factor would be impossible to balance.
That's definetely a good idea. Still, there should be something else that is not skill point dependent, just so that you don't get the best frigate in the game by just leveling.
And I wouldn't worry too much about the Hyperion. The only serious advantage it has over other frigates right now, is that it's the best to hit and run. It won't be pointless either, I think this change will bring it closer to other frigates.
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What if Combat skills were more effective on smaller ships?
Capital gets 50%
Cruiser gets 100%
Destroyer gets 150%
Frigate gets 200%
So, at +10% damage currently for the attribute itself, would get +20% for frigates, but only +5% for capital ships. Would apply to all the damage related bonuses, but not to the mobility bonuses. Unsure about flux.
Or, alternatively, base it on fleet point size, to avoid the hyperion getting frigate level bonuses considering it's cost, power, and fleet point size.
Am trying to write a mod to do this, but the variables being passed into the update function don't seem to be entirely valid.
I think it would be best that the bonuses depend on ship size. Making it depend on multiple factor would be impossible to balance.
That's definetely a good idea. Still, there should be something else that is not skill point dependent, just so that you don't get the best frigate in the game by just leveling.
And I wouldn't worry too much about the Hyperion. The only serious advantage it has over other frigates right now, is that it's the best to hit and run. It won't be pointless either, I think this change will bring it closer to other frigates.
Two things there you might have missed.
One, It is using EITHER Ship size, OR Fleet cost. Not both. Hence, either bonus or loss depending on hull size, OR bonus/loss depending on fleet point cost. Also, bonus or loss, compared to current effect. It will still give +stats regardless.
Two, It applies ONLY to your piloted ship. This, to make piloting a smaller ship, which requires more skill and so on, and is more mobile, fall off less as you get more and larger ships. Makes the piloting skill more useful.
Hyperion has, like, 15 fleet points to others getting 3 - 7, I think. Its more than quite a few destroyers, hence it almost doesn't belong. However, after playing with it for a while, I agree that the Hull Size increased boost it is is probably more appropriate.
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One, It is using EITHER Ship size, OR Fleet cost. Not both. Hence, either bonus or loss depending on hull size, OR bonus/loss depending on fleet point cost. Also, bonus or loss, compared to current effect. It will still give +stats regardless.
Yeah sorry, I misread that part.
Anyway, making the Combat skills line useful is one thing. Making player frigate as useful as capitals is another. You have to spend a lot of money to buy a capital, so you should have to when you want to buy a frigate that is as good. And overtuning is the only way I figured to do that.
I just hope some talented modders will (can?) make it happen some day.
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One, It is using EITHER Ship size, OR Fleet cost. Not both. Hence, either bonus or loss depending on hull size, OR bonus/loss depending on fleet point cost. Also, bonus or loss, compared to current effect. It will still give +stats regardless.
Yeah sorry, I misread that part.
Anyway, making the Combat skills line useful is one thing. Making player frigate as useful as capitals is another. You have to spend a lot of money to buy a capital, so you should have to when you want to buy a frigate that is as good. And overtuning is the only way I figured to do that.
I just hope some talented modders will (can?) make it happen some day.
Yea. Combat skill is kinda intended to make the player's battle actions more significant, at least from what I see. Piloting a capital ship is rather less exciting, due to pitiful speed, and so many weapons autofire is required.
If it were possibly to *Buy* Frigate Specific hull mods or weapons, that might also solve the problem. As in, they are more expensive, easily bumping you up to Capital tier. Costs like 20-50k each, and are items which are lost/gained when added/removed to a hull.
Alien Geometric Fabrication: -10 OP // Almost like it is bigger on the inside
Flux Super-conduits : 0 OP, +200 Flux Dissipation, +4000 Flux Capacity // Null resistance when transferring energy.
Hardpoint Upgrade : 0 OP, Small to Medium. Medium to Large. // Attached weapon is scaled down, and glows with power. It is warped to fit in a smaller space.
// Oh, and these are all volitile upgrades, so the ship explodes more violently on death. Twisting space and handling extra power is not the safest thing ever.
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One, It is using EITHER Ship size, OR Fleet cost. Not both. Hence, either bonus or loss depending on hull size, OR bonus/loss depending on fleet point cost. Also, bonus or loss, compared to current effect. It will still give +stats regardless.
Yeah sorry, I misread that part.
Anyway, making the Combat skills line useful is one thing. Making player frigate as useful as capitals is another. You have to spend a lot of money to buy a capital, so you should have to when you want to buy a frigate that is as good. And overtuning is the only way I figured to do that.
I just hope some talented modders will (can?) make it happen some day.
Yea. Combat skill is kinda intended to make the player's battle actions more significant, at least from what I see. Piloting a capital ship is rather less exciting, due to pitiful speed, and so many weapons autofire is required.
If it were possibly to *Buy* Frigate Specific hull mods or weapons, that might also solve the problem. As in, they are more expensive, easily bumping you up to Capital tier. Costs like 20-50k each, and are items which are lost/gained when added/removed to a hull.
Alien Geometric Fabrication: -10 OP // Almost like it is bigger on the inside
Flux Super-conduits : 0 OP, +200 Flux Dissipation, +4000 Flux Capacity // Null resistance when transferring energy.
Hardpoint Upgrade : 0 OP, Small to Medium. Medium to Large. // Attached weapon is scaled down, and glows with power. It is warped to fit in a smaller space.
// Oh, and these are all volitile upgrades, so the ship explodes more violently on death. Twisting space and handling extra power is not the safest thing ever.
Alex has already stated that capital ships are supposed to be both rare and expensive in the finished game, so I think that any ship upgrades should follow this trend. They could be cannibalised from captured capital ships (Imma stick a Paragon's power plant in my hyperion!) or found/acquired based on a similar level of rarity. It may be wise to add a tier system to upgrades as well, so that player can yank upgrades from cruisers in order to hit a 'cruiser' level of strength.
An increased demand on supplies would require players to haul support ships with them, which may actually be a good thing.
As for balance issues? I don't think that upgraded frigates would ever work, nor fit with the theme of Starsector (or at least, not what you're proposing). It'd have to be a clear trade off, like severely reducing hull integrity and bolting extra engines on a ship for increased speed, which is more of an extension to the OP system.
Having said this, special player controlled fighters/making a player frigate act like a fighter (call it dogfighting?) could spice things up. Carriers would still be required for resupplying, and the player could assign himself a few wingmen for tactical deathstar trench runs.
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I can't see how it can't fit in Starsector. What I'm proposing are frigates, which are already in the game, only more powerful and expensive. The balance difficulty is at the cost in credits and CP.
If it means you have to fight bigger foes instead of buying the upgrades outright, then why not. You'd have to get a decent fleet and go kick some capital's ass, just like how it is right now for capturing ships and getting money, but you would also have the choice to recycle ships and use parts to upgrade your own, increasing the CP cost.
Unless you mean rarity as in a highly improbable chance of getting what you want? I've never been a big fan of this kind of mechanic. It's pretty much the same as playing a long time to get what you want, only it can be frustrating, while paying isn't.
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I meant that certain frigates (*cough* Hyperion) are already capable of crazy feats- such as taking down entire fleets when given enough time. This is mainly due to their speed and agility, which tend to make combat more enjoyable (when not simply performing hit and run tactics) and make them hard to kill. At best the hit and run would become more aggressive (say if all buffs were offensive in nature), or the buff would turn these frigates into small capital ships (especially if the trade off is speed).
In any case larger ships like cruisers and capitals won't be as common in the finished game.
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Thought I'd put my 2c in.
I've found that some of the best ways to use frigates in game currently are as support roles for larger ships, for instance I have been known to take several wolf class frigates alongside an eagle or apogee all armed with a single tac laser, a graviton beam and as many shield buffs as I can throw at them. They often change the course of a battle in the middling area of the game just before I get my first capitol. But you raise a good point, being able to upgrade ships (Any ship mind you I would love to be able to further buff my capitols or make my fighters more durable) would be a stellar idea, it would add a considerable amount of depth to the game (not to mention length) as I currently find myself "finishing" the game when I have a capitol or two, after that things seem to get somewhat grindy and boring to level up my character. Having something else to grind towards (in terms of credits) would really expand my enjoyment of the game. And hey, if it means my wolf class frigates can suddenly equip a large energy weapon instead of thier other weapons then cool!
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I don't think it's a good idea to be able to mound large weapons on frigates for 2 simple reasons:
-It looks super weird. Really, the weapons take up more space than the hull on the sprite. Some weapons, and particularly weapons from mods, cover up the whole ship. Trust me, I tried.
-Even if we could shrink the weapon sprites somehow, it would be impossible to balance. Larger weapons generate too much flux for a frigate. Plus, it wouldn't fit the frigate gameplay, since a lot of large weapons have a much longer range than medium or small weapons, and they're meant to be used from a distance. A frigate that is meant for flanking and outrunning bigger ships equipped with long range weapons doesn't sound that good.
Anyway, big guns are meant to be on big ships, that's how I see it.
I meant that certain frigates (*cough* Hyperion) are already capable of crazy feats- such as taking down entire fleets when given enough time. This is mainly due to their speed and agility, which tend to make combat more enjoyable (when not simply performing hit and run tactics) and make them hard to kill. At best the hit and run would become more aggressive (say if all buffs were offensive in nature), or the buff would turn these frigates into small capital ships (especially if the trade off is speed).
In any case larger ships like cruisers and capitals won't be as common in the finished game.
Well with CR in mind the Hyperion won't be able to destroy entire fleets, not on its own. It will still have its agility and its neat gameplay. Upgrades that would make it more durable and deal more damage wouldn't change the way it's played (that much).
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I forget which mod it is but there is a frigate called the scarab which has a single large ballistic mount. It's terrible at actually being a frigate but I found it to be an excellent support ship if given a Hephaestus or gauss.
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I don't think it's a good idea to be able to mound large weapons on frigates for 2 simple reasons:
-It looks super weird. Really, the weapons take up more space than the hull on the sprite. Some weapons, and particularly weapons from mods, cover up the whole ship. Trust me, I tried.
-Even if we could shrink the weapon sprites somehow, it would be impossible to balance. Larger weapons generate too much flux for a frigate. Plus, it wouldn't fit the frigate gameplay, since a lot of large weapons have a much longer range than medium or small weapons, and they're meant to be used from a distance. A frigate that is meant for flanking and outrunning bigger ships equipped with long range weapons doesn't sound that good.
Looking stupid and being hard to play are good reasons for a play not to choose them. I don't think they are good reasons for a play not to be allowed to choose them.
Also, endgame with all the OP and flux skills, plenty of them would be manageable. Like, the big beam and pulse laser, needle storm, some of the low end balistic could all be functional.
Derpy bad ideas? Sure, but still fun.