Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Announcements => Topic started by: Alex on March 13, 2013, 05:52:34 PM

Title: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 13, 2013, 05:52:34 PM
This version is out - you can download it here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2013/09/13/starsector-0-6a-release/).

Changes as of September 13, 2013

Miscellaneous:

Modding:


Changes as of September 05, 2013

Complete combat sound overhaul

Miscellaneous:

Core campaign UI revamp

Combat control scheme:

Skills and aptitudes:

Modding:

Bugfixing:


Changes as of August 15, 2013

Miscellaneous:

Modding:

Bugfixing:



Changes as of July 27, 2013

Hyperspace


Miscellaneous:

Modding:


Bugfixing:



Changes as of July 11, 2013

Hyperspace:

Fighter mechanics changes

CR-related:

Miscellaneous:

Modding:


Bugfixing:



Changes as of May 24, 2013

New fleet management:

Miscellaneous:

New boarding mechanics:

Ship AI:

Modding:
Added SectorAPI.getPersistentData(), used for saving arbitrary data in the savegame
Replaced MutableCharacterStatsAPI.getFriendly/EnemyShipRepairChance() with getShipRepairChance() due to changing mechanics
Expanded ShipVariantAPI. Combined with FleetMemberAPI.setVariant(), should be enough to allow mods to dynamically create custom variants.
Fixed bug where the order in which weapon firing offsets were specified did not work correctly for recoil with multiple barreled weapons (recoil would always go right-to-left instead of in the firing order)


Bugfixing:



Changes as of March 23, 2013

Ship AI:

Miscellaneous:

Battle mechanics:

Modding:

Bugfixing:




Changes as of March 13, 2013

Combat readiness ("CR"):


Campaign battles mechanics:

Battle mechanics changes:


Ship AI:

Miscellaneous:

Modding:

Bugfixing:
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on March 13, 2013, 05:54:47 PM
Holy crap. Double battle size.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 13, 2013, 05:55:56 PM
Holy crap. Double battle size.

Not really, right. It's just getting all those points upfront instead of from objectives.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on March 13, 2013, 06:02:51 PM
That's an interesting shift in battle mechanics. Do the objectives still deploy in roughly the same locations every time, or are they now completely random?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 13, 2013, 06:05:47 PM
Still working on map generation, probably in about the same locations though. Basically, somewhat random but not to a point where the objective placement is going to win or lose the battle for you.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: K-64 on March 13, 2013, 06:16:09 PM
Ooh, this IS a big update indeed. And I'm not just talking about the version number either :P

That multiple-battle thing is making things shape up really Mount&Bladeish, which I like the sound of there. Now for the anticipation of actually PLAYING that release...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on March 13, 2013, 06:18:53 PM
So many cool changes. The CR Stuff is cool, but we mostly knew about it, but the way the battles work now is SUPER cool. Can't wait to try it.  :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 13, 2013, 06:24:18 PM
Woah.  Big list of changes for .6. :)

Damn, even though I'm a fast reader, this will still take me ages to read. ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: NikolaiLev on March 13, 2013, 06:26:06 PM
Changes as of March 13, 2013

Ships traveling over their top speed (due to zero-flux coasting, for example) will automatically engage maneuvering thrusters to slow down

Boooo!  >:c  I can't be the only one who actually liked zero-flux coasting.  You even made the AI do it too.

Oh well.  I guess with the new travel drive it could have harmful implications.  But then, those maneuvering thrusters could be made to only engage when above the zero-flux speed, so you could still coast but not coast from travel drive.

Complaints aside, everything else sounds great.  Can't wait to play it!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 13, 2013, 06:31:29 PM
Can't wait for the CR. :)

Though I will miss my ROFL stomping Conquest going at max speed. ;)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 13, 2013, 06:42:11 PM
Boooo!  >:c  I can't be the only one who actually liked zero-flux coasting.  You even made the AI do it too.

Oh well.  I guess with the new travel drive it could have harmful implications.  But then, those maneuvering thrusters could be made to only engage when above the zero-flux speed, so you could still coast but not coast from travel drive.

Ah, that was not actually due to travel drive, which functions much like burn drive already does, and slows down automatically as it shuts off. Here's (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5703.0) the thread that caused the change to come about. For me, it boils down to "yeah, the AI uses it, but not well at all, and it's not likely to, so it mainly becomes a way for the player to abuse it". It actually does seem up the difficulty significantly, because it's much harder to coast away while blasting ships trying in vain to catch up.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Pelhamds on March 13, 2013, 07:01:35 PM
We really need a like system.....I really, really like it and I missed the blog post as I was editing stuff.....oh well now i can play StarSector tomorrow :)

Thank you Alex and co, it will make things much more fun, and make things easier to mod.

EDIT: AND I am a idiot I did not see the "In Development" part so looked for the release......I need eyes.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Lancefighter on March 13, 2013, 07:11:33 PM
As much as I love all of the battle enhancements, when is the actual meat of the game going to appear? It has been nearly a year, and we still have seen virtually no progress on the not-combat mechanics. :(
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: K-64 on March 13, 2013, 07:22:59 PM
If I were to guess, it'd be soontm-ish. Because IIRC, Alex was focusing on combat mechanics so the game was fully playable even since early days, since a functional campaign without properly implemented battles would just be disastrous. The fact that the battle scene and campaign scene are being integrated more seamlessly now to me says that the "meat of the game" as you say it is getting more of a focus in the (relatively) near future.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: VerifiedN on March 13, 2013, 07:27:58 PM
I'm really liking the CR mechanic. It opens up a lot of potential situations for campaign play.

What are your thoughts on it's interaction with stations though, will stopping by the dock for repairs restore CR?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 13, 2013, 07:34:35 PM
Right; all of this work is campaign-driven, even if that's not readily apparent from looking at the patch notes. The Combat Readiness (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2013/02/19/combat-readiness/) blog post talks about that in a little more detail.

What are your thoughts on it's interaction with stations though, will stopping by the dock for repairs restore CR?

Instant repairs are a placeholder, there to speed things along because time is meaningless at the moment. Once time starts to matter (i.e you might lose an outpost because your fleet wasn't ready to intercept a pirate fleet in time, or you can do other useful things with that time), I'd expect those mechanics to go away or alter quite a bit. That said, right now repairs also restore full CR.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: phyrex on March 13, 2013, 07:49:59 PM
oh wow.
big update indeed.
thats both awesome and sad for me :/

im currently working on my first mod and im still learning how the game's code work. having more stacked over is gonna be troublesome. especially a new stats like combat readiness
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Pentakill on March 13, 2013, 08:14:27 PM
I love that you're making such an effort to polish battles and combat but I feel like you're starting to tinker, not for the better, with something that's already very good.

With each new patch you're adding new combat mechanics and such but each is starting to feel less and less needed, and more like you're nitpicking because you've been looking at the same game for so long.

I suppose what i'm saying is, the combat is very well fleshed out while the rest of the actual game isn't at all. Right now its basically a combat simulator where you can acquire every ship, weapon, and upgrade in under a few hours, test them, then ask "now what?".

If you could take a step back for a month or two like so many of us loving players have between patches you'd see that the combat is beautiful and ready, but it needs the rest of the game.

Obviously you're not in a position to "take a step back for a month or two" but just try to put yourself in the consumers shoes. What we see is the dev "fixing" things that don't need it while putting off what we feel is really integral to making this a game.

I'm worried if your focus isn't renewed soon the development will take vastly more time then needed before it catches a glimpse of a trade system, more than one solar system, real factions, economy, real character progression, ect.

Hopefully you don't take this the wrong way, think of it as an intervention from one of your loving players.
(ps. I feel like a d*ck writing this but i'm just kinda bummed time and time again to see more of the same, changing a good combat system, and very little if any real meat in the patches.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on March 13, 2013, 08:40:10 PM
Did you read the CR blog post?   ???

This is a campaign mechanic. Yes it affects combat, but the campaign HAS to affect combat in some way. This is just the way it does that. If the combat is the muscle and the campaign the skeleton, this is like the ligaments. You need it for them to mesh.

He is working on the campaign, it just may not feel like it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: K-64 on March 13, 2013, 08:48:49 PM
Like I said in my post, what I see in this update is the campaign and combat being integrated more smoothly with one another. Jumping straight from combat mechanics to campaign entirely wouldn't have a good effect on the development in either the long or short terms. There has to be updates like this, which are more transitional from one to the other, so that the future updates go smoother and require less changing as more gets added to the game later on
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Vinya on March 13, 2013, 08:58:22 PM
Soooooooo, with this update, what will mod ships from the previous versions have their CR set to? Is it an individual rating for each for each ship in the .csv, or it it determined by ship class/tech level? Will non-updated mods still work?


Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: EnderNerdcore on March 13, 2013, 09:12:53 PM
Fantastic stuff.


This is also going to cause every mod maker to have to redo some of the stats on all of their ships. :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on March 13, 2013, 09:58:17 PM
after a day of frustration with blizzard over hots, this definitely provides a great degree of comfort

i knew there was a reason I prefer indie games :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gaizokubanou on March 13, 2013, 10:40:44 PM
Cool, two new major overhauls to help tie combat with campaign stuff that will come in the future.  YAY!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on March 13, 2013, 11:36:36 PM
Hope we get a fix for decorative weapons as well, so they don't get assigned to weapon groups.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on March 13, 2013, 11:40:50 PM
it's on the change log, they did it
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Nooblies on March 14, 2013, 01:13:22 AM
With the removal of the zero flux speed boost, the 5 and 10 point perks in the Helmsmanship aptitude are no longer applicable, and hence will need changes. Just thought I'd mention it as those perks aren't mentioned in the patch notes.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on March 14, 2013, 01:33:23 AM
0flux is still there, just no longer possible when... well.... the ship has more than 0 flux
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Jonlissla on March 14, 2013, 02:45:05 AM
Since the combat in the campaign is getting reworked, is it possible to make AI battles last a few days instead of getting immediately resolved? Like Mount&Blade, you can then come and assist in battles and so on. You could have a small window above showing how the battle is going. Would make the world feel more alive, right now all we see are small coloured circles going *poof* when they fly into eachother.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Uomoz on March 14, 2013, 02:52:48 AM
Since the combat in the campaign is getting reworked, is it possible to make AI battles last a few days instead of getting immediately resolved? Like Mount&Blade, you can then come and assist in battles and so on. You could have a small window above showing how the battle is going. Would make the world feel more alive, right now all we see is small coloured circles go *poof* when they fly into eachother.

This actually makes more sense now with the new combat mechanics :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on March 14, 2013, 03:20:32 AM
Nice. I'm eager to see how battle will work now  :)

edit: Oh, and Alex NOW is right time to give us that 0.6a version to test it for you  ;D  We gonna find bugs... and stuff... scout honor!  ::)   It's more of us then you, we will test it faster  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: RawCode on March 14, 2013, 03:23:06 AM
Quote
Ships traveling over their top speed (due to zero-flux coasting, for example) will automatically engage maneuvering thrusters to slow down
lateral movement removed from game, this is sad.

Code
Added ModPlugin interface:
looks like eventbus, praise gods.

Quote
Combat aptitude now raises maximum CR for piloted ship instead of providing a damage bonus
strange, personally i expected skills related to CR go to industry branch...

Quote
Mount&Blade
Noninstant combat shoud also allow to join in midtime and assist someone (or kill everything).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Apophis on March 14, 2013, 05:07:23 AM
Good improvements in general but i don't like the timer on the frigate. All ships should have the same mechanics.
Also i think it would be better to remove battle objectives completely.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: theSONY on March 14, 2013, 05:18:48 AM
Good improvements in general but i don't like the timer on the frigate. All ships should have the same mechanics.
Also i think it would be better to remove battle objectives completely.

agree
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Histidine on March 14, 2013, 05:35:38 AM
Most everything sounds great!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Uomoz on March 14, 2013, 05:43:06 AM
Good improvements in general but i don't like the timer on the frigate. All ships should have the same mechanics.
Also i think it would be better to remove battle objectives completely.

agree

+1 I guess.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Barracuda on March 14, 2013, 05:45:11 AM
Since the combat in the campaign is getting reworked, is it possible to make AI battles last a few days instead of getting immediately resolved? Like Mount&Blade, you can then come and assist in battles and so on. You could have a small window above showing how the battle is going. Would make the world feel more alive, right now all we see are small coloured circles going *poof* when they fly into each other.

If we do do this we shoulds make it kinda flashy as well. When two fleets come together their circles come together into one and mix colors. The ships will fly around and simulate fighting. Ships destroyed will explode and depending on how the battle is going and what phase they are in the ships will go head to head or run away.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 14, 2013, 05:48:11 AM
I'm sick in bed at the moment and this made me feel much better :)

I've got questions, though!


Campaign battles mechanics:
Take place as a series of engagements, that is, a single "battle" may involve several head-on engagements and a pursuit of one side's remaining ships
Only two battle types are a head-on engagement by the two fleets, or one fleet escaping and the other in pursuit

Maybe it is because of my condition, but I don't really get it. How can there be several head-on engagements? The "After a head on engagement"-options only seem to allow for an escape scenario next (assuming that "harry" is a pure text scenario).

Default battleSize increased from 100 to 200
Battle objectives no longer provide fleet points, only ship bonuses

Is it correct that ship deployment will no longer be staggered? Is there anything preventing us from deploying the whole fleet at once (aside from CR considerations vs. inferior opponents)?

Isn't that a huge blow to the usefulness of fast, small ships?


Extra CR cost for using missile weapons in combat, based on ammo remaining
Reduced missile ammo at below 30%, missile weapons at 0 ammo at 10%

Anything to counterbalance this? Missiles are not exactly overpowered at the moment, why would I want to choose them after this nerf?


Changes to how escape works

Mh, seems familiar... I smell steak here ;D


Very exciting all in all, can't wait to try it! (As everybody who ever said that I will wait though, despite my previously stated inability to do so. Language. Silly.)



lateral movement removed from game, this is sad.

Coasting or lateral movement are not removed! It just can't happen at speeds that are gained through some special means after those special means are discontinued. For example, after your maneuvering jets system stops you will drop back to your normal top speed.



Holy crap. Double battle size.
Not really, right. It's just getting all those points upfront instead of from objectives.

Added "Battle size" setting to gameplay settings screen, range is from 100 to 500 with the default at 200.

Holy crap. Double battle size at demand.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on March 14, 2013, 06:05:19 AM
Quote
Quote from: Alex on March 13, 2013, 07:52:34 PM
Extra CR cost for using missile weapons in combat, based on ammo remaining
Reduced missile ammo at below 30%, missile weapons at 0 ammo at 10%

Anything to counterbalance this? Missiles are not exactly overpowered at the moment, why would I want to choose them after this nerf?

You just destroyed the Valkyrians, their main weapon is missiles.. :'(
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: sirboomalot on March 14, 2013, 07:00:25 AM
It sounds to me like it will take a bit of fighting for the CR to drop low enough to affect things, missiles should be fine... I think...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: theSONY on March 14, 2013, 07:10:34 AM
Quote
Quote from: Alex on March 13, 2013, 07:52:34 PM
Extra CR cost for using missile weapons in combat, based on ammo remaining
Reduced missile ammo at below 30%, missile weapons at 0 ammo at 10%

Anything to counterbalance this? Missiles are not exactly overpowered at the moment, why would I want to choose them after this nerf?

You just destroyed the Valkyrians, their main weapon is missiles.. :'(
shame abut the missiles too cuz i like to have long range supporting missile ship so when at the battle it's like tankers on front, long range at backs  so its like more like in strategy games (archers always at backs) & now battle will mostly be like brute power less strategy
its a damn shame
& i have a little faith in modding community that they can turn of those silly "time out" durning combat
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sandremo on March 14, 2013, 08:21:46 AM
Quote
Quote from: Alex on March 13, 2013, 07:52:34 PM
Extra CR cost for using missile weapons in combat, based on ammo remaining
Reduced missile ammo at below 30%, missile weapons at 0 ammo at 10%

Anything to counterbalance this? Missiles are not exactly overpowered at the moment, why would I want to choose them after this nerf?

You just destroyed the Valkyrians, their main weapon is missiles.. :'(

Now you can replace the missiles with BEAM WEAPONS! >: D

Anyway looks interesting. And now i wont have to curse about not having enough fleet points to buy ANY fighters.

-Sandremo
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on March 14, 2013, 08:54:48 AM
Why is everyone assuming missile weapons will now be useless? Weird. All we know is that there will be a slight penalty in CR for using all of them, forcing you to better judge if you need missiles to finish off an enemy ship. Adds opportunity cost and makes combat more tense. If you just want to spam missiles everywhere in a mod, the new API functions for modifying CR effects will probably let you diminish this penalty to taste.

If this makes missile weapons unattractive, there are plenty of ways to make them attractive again.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on March 14, 2013, 08:59:58 AM
I'm just concern about enemy ships. AI is well known to be trigger happy with missiles. I hope this wont affect him much.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on March 14, 2013, 09:02:34 AM
Dunno - it depends. For instance, I've often seen Lashers fire only one or two harpoons into a venting ship even when a full salvo would instantly kill that ship.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JT on March 14, 2013, 09:04:20 AM
Changes as of March 13, 2013

Ships traveling over their top speed (due to zero-flux coasting, for example) will automatically engage maneuvering thrusters to slow down

Boooo!  >:c  I can't be the only one who actually liked zero-flux coasting.  You even made the AI do it too.

To be honest, I kept kicking myself for forgetting about the zero-flux drift, so this change actually doesn't affect me at all, other than cementing the gameplay mechanic I always followed through sheer ignorance.  For me, holding down W means "mustgofaster,mustgofaster", whereas letting go of W means "okay, time to change strategy" -- so intuitively I would hold down W while in pursuit of an enemy ship, and of course once I began firing, my 0% flux boost would disappear.  So I would need to stop firing and vent flux in order to catch up again -- making a pursuit a deadly game of cat and mouse.

After the battle, I then reflected and thought, "Shoot! [minced from original oath] I could've just drifted and kept firing without slowing down!"

Now, I can hold down W as normal, gaining 0% flux boost, and fire as normal, losing the 0% flux boost, per what I intuitively felt and which strikes me as far more interesting conceptually, even if it does mean that people will need to unlearn some things.


Since the combat in the campaign is getting reworked, is it possible to make AI battles last a few days instead of getting immediately resolved? Like Mount&Blade, you can then come and assist in battles and so on. You could have a small window above showing how the battle is going. Would make the world feel more alive, right now all we see is small coloured circles go *poof* when they fly into eachother.

This actually makes more sense now with the new combat mechanics :)

Interesting.  The problem I see here is that campaign time is galactic -- watch how quickly the days count down on the upper left -- whereas combat time is local -- when was the last time a battle for you lasted for more than 10 minutes?

Also, to be honest, Mount & Blade's battles actually struck me as weird in a quantum sense.  When enemy forces met on the field, it usually degenerated into a quick American football "pile on!", whereas when I met enemy forces on the battlefield, I could use luring tactics to split two enemy forces far enough that they don't reinforce one another, and could then defeat both of them one by one -- and the other force would not have repositioned while I was busy eliminating the other.  In other words, the enemy "fleets" didn't play by the same rules that I did, and I was at an inherent advantage.  It didn't matter how long I took in battle since my battles were instantaneous, but I could always assist my allies in battle because theirs weren't, until/unless I intervened.

That said, from pure look and feel alone, I think Mount & Blade's system is still far more interesting and might be worthwhile to implement even in spite of its realism problems.  Plus, since Alex has control over the engine, who's to say that campaign-level repositioning can't take place *in real time* while a battle is going on, such that allies or enemies can actually be determined to catch up to a battle in progress and then reinforce as necessary?  (The only major problem, of course, is the emphasis on Side A versus Side B, since if Side C is hostile to both or allied to both, it creates a logical inconsistency on who to support and who to attack.  The simple and intelligent solution is simply not to get involved and then to pick at the scraps later, but that's not necessarily very realistic either.)


Quote
Quote from: Alex on March 13, 2013, 07:52:34 PM
Extra CR cost for using missile weapons in combat, based on ammo remaining
Reduced missile ammo at below 30%, missile weapons at 0 ammo at 10%

Anything to counterbalance this? Missiles are not exactly overpowered at the moment, why would I want to choose them after this nerf?

You just destroyed the Valkyrians, their main weapon is missiles.. :'(

Don't be silly. =)

All that needs to be done is to ensure that the Valkyrians have a much better supply chain in campaign mode to maintain their missile loadouts in a realistic manner, and to ramp up the base readiness pool of those ships, which as Alex seems to suggest is definitely configurable on a ship-by-ship basis.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Jonlissla on March 14, 2013, 09:41:27 AM
I'm just concern about enemy ships. AI is well known to be trigger happy with missiles. I hope this wont affect him much.

I find it the opposite. Pilum and Salamander missiles are obvious, but I don't see the AI waste Harpoon or Sabot missiles all that often.

Besides, I doubt this change is going to make them useless or something.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on March 14, 2013, 09:44:16 AM
Still unhappy about the CR nerf to the frigates, with it, I'm not entirely sure what the point is of a Tempest or Hyperion is anymore - fast cap of an objective? Why give the tempests such gorgeous weapon capabilities if they'll just randomly derp half way through a battle? The Hyperion? Same, but both worse and better - it kinda makes sense since it's an experimental frigate and balances out the 15FP and teleporter, but the Tempest nerf I cannot understand... of course, I'd shut up if the price tags of the frigates really represented this.

I guess the saddest thing will be for me, personally, is this kills in one fell swoop any hope of ever creating Wanderer in a mod. And that pretty much reflects a lot of the other frigates I've seen in mods, Antediluvians  will suffer horrifically from this and that's the fastest example I can muster.

But everything else? I like. I like CR as a concept, I really do. It ties this nice little link between having a percentage value of dead hull and seeing the effects of that dead hull, but this I cannot explain. Think of the Hound, that certainly looks like the kind of ship you'd spend an age flying around in and kiting and it'd do it's job all the same while you do it. Now? Nada. Can't be done.
Your choice Alex, and I may not necessarily agree with part of it, but that doesn't mean you'll change it because one person says 'I don't like it.' The most I can do is let you see where I stand on this. I repeat my old argument, CR in relation to frigates (and now destroyers) favours an aggressive, no holds bared frigates and destroyers to cap cruisers versus cruisers versus capital ships versus capital ships versus fighters versus fighters (mouthful!) action. And that's something I never thought I'd see Starf-sector do. It sounds, in principle, like it'll make combat much more arcadey. I played defensive, it's how I play these games. I use fast frigates to move my lines around rapidly and keep people moving. Now, I can't. I'm going to have to save for a cruiser immediately. I'll never be able to build a frigate fleet. I'll never be able to build a destroyer fleet. I'll have to adapt, and that's something I feel I simply should not have to do.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: FloW on March 14, 2013, 09:52:57 AM
Still unhappy about the CR nerf to the frigates, with it, I'm not entirely sure what the point is of a Tempest or Hyperion is anymore - fast cap of an objective? Why give the tempests such gorgeous weapon capabilities if they'll just randomly derp half way through a battle? The Hyperion? Same, but both worse and better - it kinda makes sense since it's an experimental frigate and balances out the 15FP and teleporter, but the Tempest nerf I cannot understand... of course, I'd shut up if the price tags of the frigates really represented this.

I guess the saddest thing will be for me, personally, is this kills in one fell swoop any hope of ever creating Wanderer in a mod. And that pretty much reflects a lot of the other frigates I've seen in mods, Antediluvians  will suffer horrifically from this and that's the fastest example I can muster.

But everything else? I like. I like CR as a concept, I really do. It ties this nice little link between having a percentage value of dead hull and seeing the effects of that dead hull, but this I cannot explain. Think of the Hound, that certainly looks like the kind of ship you'd spend an age flying around in and kiting and it'd do it's job all the same while you do it. Now? Nada. Can't be done.
Your choice Alex, and I may not necessarily agree with part of it, but that doesn't mean you'll change it because one person says 'I don't like it.' The most I can do is let you see where I stand on this. I repeat my old argument, CR in relation to frigates (and now destroyers) favours an aggressive, no holds bared frigates and destroyers to cap cruisers versus cruisers versus capital ships versus capital ships versus fighters versus fighters (mouthful!) action. And that's something I never thought I'd see Starf-sector do. It sounds, in principle, like it'll make combat much more arcadey. I played defensive, it's how I play these games. I use fast frigates to move my lines around rapidly and keep people moving. Now, I can't. I'm going to have to save for a cruiser immediately. I'll never be able to build a frigate fleet. I'll never be able to build a destroyer fleet. I'll have to adapt, and that's something I feel I simply should not have to do.

Think of the change as a challenge. To be a good commander you have to adapt to your surroundings. Also we have yet to try the final implementation of CR. Frigates will be units you just cannot spam anymore. Instead of fielding all 12 frigates of a frigate fleet you will have to fight with 4 at a time, isolate your enemies and rip them apart.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Uomoz on March 14, 2013, 10:14:36 AM
Xareh, even playing defensively, you won't reach the frigate dead point: it's just for the kite strategies.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on March 14, 2013, 10:23:31 AM
Still working on map generation, probably in about the same locations though. Basically, somewhat random but not to a point where the objective placement is going to win or lose the battle for you.

Objective placement rarely does... but nebula placement already can!  Drop a random nebula on your spawn point, and suddenly it's vastly more difficult to get to nodes, deploy new ships, etc.  And vice versa.  May be less of an issue with being able to deploy more stuff up front, but, at least in the current missions, (most notably "the last hurrah"), the random nebula placement can easily swing the battle in either direction.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: sirboomalot on March 14, 2013, 10:27:07 AM
Still unhappy about the CR nerf to the frigates, with it, I'm not entirely sure what the point is of a Tempest or Hyperion is anymore - fast cap of an objective? Why give the tempests such gorgeous weapon capabilities if they'll just randomly derp half way through a battle? The Hyperion? Same, but both worse and better - it kinda makes sense since it's an experimental frigate and balances out the 15FP and teleporter, but the Tempest nerf I cannot understand... of course, I'd shut up if the price tags of the frigates really represented this.

I guess the saddest thing will be for me, personally, is this kills in one fell swoop any hope of ever creating Wanderer in a mod. And that pretty much reflects a lot of the other frigates I've seen in mods, Antediluvians  will suffer horrifically from this and that's the fastest example I can muster.

But everything else? I like. I like CR as a concept, I really do. It ties this nice little link between having a percentage value of dead hull and seeing the effects of that dead hull, but this I cannot explain. Think of the Hound, that certainly looks like the kind of ship you'd spend an age flying around in and kiting and it'd do it's job all the same while you do it. Now? Nada. Can't be done.
Your choice Alex, and I may not necessarily agree with part of it, but that doesn't mean you'll change it because one person says 'I don't like it.' The most I can do is let you see where I stand on this. I repeat my old argument, CR in relation to frigates (and now destroyers) favours an aggressive, no holds bared frigates and destroyers to cap cruisers versus cruisers versus capital ships versus capital ships versus fighters versus fighters (mouthful!) action. And that's something I never thought I'd see Starf-sector do. It sounds, in principle, like it'll make combat much more arcadey. I played defensive, it's how I play these games. I use fast frigates to move my lines around rapidly and keep people moving. Now, I can't. I'm going to have to save for a cruiser immediately. I'll never be able to build a frigate fleet. I'll never be able to build a destroyer fleet. I'll have to adapt, and that's something I feel I simply should not have to do.

Think of the change as a challenge. To be a good commander you have to adapt to your surroundings. Also we have yet to try the final implementation of CR. Frigates will be units you just cannot spam anymore. Instead of fielding all 12 frigates of a frigate fleet you will have to fight with 4 at a time, isolate your enemies and rip them apart.

I have to say, four frigates for a frigate fleet simply is not acceptable. We do not have the control required for that to work, and the enemy AI is too smart to get isolated that easy. As somebody who prefers frigate swarms over any other type of fleet, I very much share xareh's concerns. I do however believe that Alex knows what he is doing and will be able to find a better solution than to eliminate a way of playing.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 14, 2013, 10:45:49 AM
@Pentakill: Right; what others have said. I'll just add that I'm very much aware of the dangers of tinkering, and this is most assuredly not that. I appreciate your candor and concern, though.

Soooooooo, with this update, what will mod ships from the previous versions have their CR set to? Is it an individual rating for each for each ship in the .csv, or it it determined by ship class/tech level? Will non-updated mods still work?

They're individual ratings per-ship, but there are some reasonablish derived defaults if those columns are missing.


Since the combat in the campaign is getting reworked, is it possible to make AI battles last a few days instead of getting immediately resolved? Like Mount&Blade, you can then come and assist in battles and so on. You could have a small window above showing how the battle is going. Would make the world feel more alive, right now all we see are small coloured circles going *poof* when they fly into eachother.

I'll just reply to this (instead of quoting lots of other posts on the same subject). I'm definitely not going to do this now, but might take another look at it later. One of the reasons is that it's decidedly non-trivial in many aspects, both UI and mechanics-wise. So, not something I want to devote that much time to now, until the rest of the campaign takes shape.

edit: Oh, and Alex NOW is right time to give us that 0.6a version to test it for you  ;D  We gonna find bugs... and stuff... scout honor!  ::)   It's more of us then you, we will test it faster  ;D

Nice try :)


Also i think it would be better to remove battle objectives completely.

agree
+1 I guess.

I like what they do for making battles a little more strategic and spread out, rather than one giant furball.


I'm sick in bed at the moment and this made me feel much better :)

I've got questions, though!

I've got answers! :)

Maybe it is because of my condition, but I don't really get it. How can there be several head-on engagements? The "After a head on engagement"-options only seem to allow for an escape scenario next (assuming that "harry" is a pure text scenario).

After you pick one of those options, the fleets are back in stand-off range, and can choose to engage or disengage. But yes, generally there'd only be one head-on engagement because, unless the enemy is suicidal, if they retreated from the field once, they're not likely to want to reengage.


Is it correct that ship deployment will no longer be staggered? Is there anything preventing us from deploying the whole fleet at once (aside from CR considerations vs. inferior opponents)?

Isn't that a huge blow to the usefulness of fast, small ships?

Correct. You can deploy everything (provided it's still within the battle size - 200 total for both sides by default).

A lot of fleet (er, "deployment") point values have been adjusted - some frigates are a little cheaper, some larger ships more expensive. I don't think it's a huge blow - capturing objectives is still important, and small ships have much more important role in escape scenarios.


Anything to counterbalance this? Missiles are not exactly overpowered at the moment, why would I want to choose them after this nerf?

Here's how it works: say you have 10 OP worth of missile weapons on a 50 OP ship, and that ship has a base deployment cost of 25% CR. If you fired all the missiles in an engagement, you'd get an extra 10/50 * 25% = 5% CR loss.

So, not a game-changer for anything but dedicated missile boats. And those could have a reduced base deployment cost to counterbalance this. It's not inherently a nerf. If missile-heavy ships get a reduced deployment CR cost as a result, it would actually be a bonus.


@Xareh: Right. Two points (one of which I think I brought up in the CR thread...)

It's too early to make these kinds of conclusions about how it plays out. All in all, the higher CR regeneration rate could make frigates more powerful in the grand scheme of things, even accounting for the in-combat drain (which takes a while to kick in).

I'll have to adapt, and that's something I feel I simply should not have to do.

I strongly disagree. The game's still in development, and things change. Not everyone is going to like all of the changes, and I have to be ok with that. So; my apologies if you don't like something, but I have to do what I think is best long-term. Still open to feedback, of course, and did read what you said carefully.

As somebody who prefers frigate swarms over any other type of fleet, I very much share xareh's concerns. I do however believe that Alex knows what he is doing and will be able to find a better solution than to eliminate a way of playing.

FWIW, I suspect a frigate swarm would still be viable. Although it might run into issues with sustainable logistics, due to limited cargo space - frigates are, after all, not intended for lengthy tours of duty without some support.

Anyway, it needs more playtesting. I obviously don't want to make frigates useless, so let's all work from that as a base assumption :)

Objective placement rarely does... but nebula placement already can!  Drop a random nebula on your spawn point, and suddenly it's vastly more difficult to get to nodes, deploy new ships, etc.  And vice versa.  May be less of an issue with being able to deploy more stuff up front, but, at least in the current missions, (most notably "the last hurrah"), the random nebula placement can easily swing the battle in either direction.

Right, fair point.

(What I meant was IF objective placement was completely random, it would also occasionally decide battles - not that it already does.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on March 14, 2013, 11:40:10 AM
@Xareh: Right. Two points (one of which I think I brought up in the CR thread...)

It's too early to make these kinds of conclusions about how it plays out. All in all, the higher CR regeneration rate could make frigates more powerful in the grand scheme of things, even accounting for the in-combat drain (which takes a while to kick in).

I'll have to adapt, and that's something I feel I simply should not have to do.

I strongly disagree. The game's still in development, and things change. Not everyone is going to like all of the changes, and I have to be ok with that. So; my apologies if you don't like something, but I have to do what I think is best long-term. Still open to feedback, of course, and did read what you said carefully.
It certainly is too early to make these kinds of conclusions, though I was not conclusively concluding, I was asking a question. Numerous questions. Most of which were, designed and phrased, even if not neccesarily marked with correct punctuation, to be treated and answered as if they were a question. 
And what I said about adapting is not at all that my current playstyle revolves around say a gimmick, exploit or inherent feature of the game, but the broadness of defending and modifying my defence with frigates. The broadness of defending. That is all.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 14, 2013, 12:12:30 PM
It's not inherently a nerf. If missile-heavy ships get a reduced deployment CR cost as a result, it would actually be a bonus.

Mh, I see. Still, if I am low on OP for a (non missile-boat) build missiles are among the first things I drop, this will encourage it further. Maybe there could be additional missiles if the CR is at a very high level to provide some symmetry?

Correct. You can deploy everything

I guess I'll have to wait and see how this plays out, but it sounds as if two of the currently most important tactical elements are dropped, struggle for (initial) FP dominance and deployment order. Is there, well, anything new instead? I don't see any important tactical decisions at the beginning of a battle now...


Extra CR cost for suffering a flameout of weapons being disabled by damage

"or" maybe?
Anyway, does this include EMP damage? If yes, that might almost make it feasible to wear down a superior enemy low-tech fleet with Ion cannons over time :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: sdmike1 on March 14, 2013, 12:20:54 PM
It's not inherently a nerf. If missile-heavy ships get a reduced deployment CR cost as a result, it would actually be a bonus.

Mh, I see. Still, if I am low on OP for a (non missile-boat) build missiles are among the first things I drop, this will encourage it further. Maybe there could be additional missiles if the CR is at a very high level to provide some symmetry?

This is a very solid idea, another interesting idea would be missiles getting a bouns to there lowest stat (proper maintenance we can call it :)) if the CR is very high
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 14, 2013, 12:26:12 PM
It's not inherently a nerf. If missile-heavy ships get a reduced deployment CR cost as a result, it would actually be a bonus.

Mh, I see. Still, if I am low on OP for a (non missile-boat) build missiles are among the first things I drop, this will encourage it further. Maybe there could be additional missiles if the CR is at a very high level to provide some symmetry?

Hmm. I don't know, I already like missiles. Especially with the right skills, they're devastating - one of my favorite setups is an Enforcer with 4x Harpoon racks, Expanded Missile Racks, and maxed out Missile Specialization/Ordnance Expertise. You can knock out a large number of ships so quickly with that.

If missiles do turn out to be too weak after the change, that could be rectified by making them cost less OP or do more damage or have more skills improving them. There's lots in play here besides the CR mechanic, so there are lots of ways this could be adjusted.

Another option (that does involve CR mechanics directly) is to switch it around and give missile-using ships some CR back if they *didn't* fire the missiles.

Correct. You can deploy everything

I guess I'll have to wait and see how this plays out, but it sounds as if two of the currently most important tactical elements are dropped, struggle for (initial) FP dominance and deployment order. Is there, well, anything new instead? I don't see any important tactical decisions at the beginning of a battle now...

Well, the struggle for initial FP dominance - while interesting - also leads to a degenerate battle state where one side (usually the player's) has an overwhelming advantage that renders the rest of the battle moot. So, while I did like the mechanics leading into it, that downside also goes away.

The tactical decision now is just how much/what composition you want to deploy. You're basically betting what you think you can handle.


Extra CR cost for suffering a flameout of weapons being disabled by damage
"or" maybe?
Anyway, does this include EMP damage?

Only indirectly, because EMP tends to disable weapons/engines when it hits.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on March 14, 2013, 12:34:44 PM
Looks good! Question: will the harry and CR mechanic replace the semi-random damage currently being applied to retreating ships?


My 2 cents on frigates: I think after this update they will be more useful because of the escape mechanic and their boosted speed. With enemies starting 50% of the way up the map, I think its going to be very important to engage them quickly and rob them of their +50 nf bonus, letting larger ships/bombers catch up to retreating enemies. Add to this that frigates are getting a speed boost, so will be extra survivable and deadly (while they last).

Tactics idea now that frigates are faster - keep a cluster of frigates in reserve to ambush enemies that try to cap one of your points.

I like the idea of missiles getting an ammo bonus at very high CR - that would give an incentive to have elite crew etc on missile support boats.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 14, 2013, 12:41:08 PM
Looks good! Question: will the harry and CR mechanic replace the semi-random damage currently being applied to retreating ships?

Yes. Random post-battle damage is entirely gone now.

That's one of the things I like about CR - it allows a more fine-grained expression of "something bad happened to your ship" than bashing it with a space-hammer.


I like the idea of missiles getting an ammo bonus at very high CR - that would give an incentive to have elite crew etc on missile support boats.

Hmm, that's an interesting consequence to that idea. But - as the missile spec skill demonstrates - adding ammo to missiles is a little awkward due to such a high ammo count variance.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: LazyWizard on March 14, 2013, 12:45:22 PM
Is it wrong that I looked at the Modding section of the patch notes first? :D

For BoundsAPI, if I'm reading this right the process to add to a bounds is to save the current list of segments, clear it, then rebuild using addSegment() with the new segments included? Or will the game still function correctly if you just add another polygon alongside the existing bounds?

Could you explain SpriteAPI? You mention custom UI panels, does that mean we will be able to create buttons/input boxes alongside these sprites, or is it display-only?

Extra CR cost for suffering a flameout of weapons being disabled by damage
"or" maybe?
Anyway, does this include EMP damage?

Only indirectly, because EMP tends to disable weapons/engines when it hits.

Will low CR improve capture chances (aside from the existing mechanic of undeployable ships being auto-captured/sabataged)? There have been suggestions on making EMP increase capture chance, and with the mechanic above it seems natural to include it. :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 14, 2013, 12:54:36 PM
Is it wrong that I looked at the Modding section of the patch notes first? :D

For BoundsAPI, if I'm reading this right the process to add to a bounds is to save the current list of segments, clear it, then rebuild using addSegment() with the new segments included? Or will the game still function correctly if you just add another polygon alongside the existing bounds?

You could add segments to existing bounds, but I'm not sure you'd often want to. Valid bounds need to be a single polygon.

Could you explain SpriteAPI? You mention custom UI panels, does that mean we will be able to create buttons/input boxes alongside these sprites, or is it display-only?

More on that later, but the idea is you'd be able to create customizable dialogs with fully-custom components for certain events. Still working through the details; using the new fleet-to-fleet interaction dialog as a test case for this. If all goes well, it'll actually be moddable.

As far as input - this is what the custom UI panel plugin looks like right now:
Spoiler
/**
    * Called whenever the location or size of this UI panel changes.
    * @param position
    */
   void positionChanged(PositionAPI position);
   
   /**
    * alphaMult is the transparency the panel should be rendered at.
    * @param alphaMult
    */
   void render(float alphaMult);
   
   /**
    * @param amount in seconds.
    */
   void advance(float amount);
   
   /**
    * List of input events that occurred this frame. (Almost) always includes one mouse move event.
    *
    * Events should be consume()d if they are acted on.
    * Mouse-move events should generally not be consumed.
    * The loop processing events should check to see if an event has already been consumed, and if so, skip it.
    * Accessing the data of a consumed event will throw an exception.
    *
    * @param events
    */
   void processInput(List<InputEventAPI> events);
[close]

At the moment, if you wanted buttons etc, you could do that but you'd have to code them up yourself.

Note that you can also make OpenGL calls inside render(). So, you could really code up whatever you wanted in there.


Extra CR cost for suffering a flameout of weapons being disabled by damage
"or" maybe?
Anyway, does this include EMP damage?

Only indirectly, because EMP tends to disable weapons/engines when it hits.

Will low CR improve capture chances (aside from the existing mechanic of undeployable ships being auto-captured/sabataged)? There have been suggestions on making EMP increase capture chance, and with the mechanic above it seems natural to include it. :)

Still thinking about boarding/capture.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 14, 2013, 01:11:00 PM
Well, the struggle for initial FP dominance - while interesting - also leads to a degenerate battle state where one side (usually the player's) has an overwhelming advantage that renders the rest of the battle moot. So, while I did like the mechanics leading into it, that downside also goes away.

Right, if it leads to a more intense mid-battle phase I'm all for it :)


Another option (that does involve CR mechanics directly) is to switch it around and give missile-using ships some CR back if they *didn't* fire the missiles.

One problem with the cost for missile firing is that the optimal playstile is to not use them. This would emphasize it much more. Isn't it kinda stupid to equip my ship with something that makes me feel bad when using it?

But yeah, there are many ways to fix it if they turn out to weak.


Hmm, that's an interesting consequence to that idea. But - as the missile spec skill demonstrates - adding ammo to missiles is a little awkward due to such a high ammo count variance.

However, you found a solution for that skill. Maybe also start with +1 missile at ~60% and then use a increasing percentage bonus here?

CR50  CR60 CR70  CR80   CR90  Cr100
-        +1     +10% +25% +38% +50%
Atropos
2         3         3         3       3          4
Pillum
30       31       34      39     42         46
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on March 14, 2013, 01:31:54 PM
Another option (that does involve CR mechanics directly) is to switch it around and give missile-using ships some CR back if they *didn't* fire the missiles.

One problem with the cost for missile firing is that the optimal playstile is to not use them. This would emphasize it much more. Isn't it kinda stupid to equip my ship with something that makes me feel bad when using it?

Eh, I don't buy that. It's not a hit if you use them, it's a bonus if you don't (though you could probably argue it's the same thing, haha). And they currently already emphasize a wait-and-see play style anyway since their ammo is limited. So it's not that big a jump.

I'm leery of adding ammo to missiles. It seems like a too big a bonus. Maybe it'd play out okay though. No way to know without trying it out, really.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Jonlissla on March 14, 2013, 02:51:25 PM
The tactical decision now is just how much/what composition you want to deploy. You're basically betting what you think you can handle.

How does the AI handle this? I'm guessing it's just going to deploy everything, but it would be nice if it tried to conserve its own CR in case your fleet is much smaller. You know, for future battles and such.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Kommodore Krieg on March 14, 2013, 05:11:01 PM
Brilliant.  I love how you've implemented CR.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Railgun on March 14, 2013, 05:23:08 PM
Can we have a bit of industry/economy thrown in please? Just a bit? Like a bone to a dog? I want a bone!

Or at least a bit of API for those modders to make a more complete campaign mode, maybe with a bit of commerce and outpost construction, etc. I mean, the industry stat' is in there... but it's not being used :(.

I hunger for commerce and industry to give purpose to my foolish vagrancy.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Blips on March 14, 2013, 05:57:58 PM
Can we have a bit of industry/economy thrown in please? Just a bit? Like a bone to a dog? I want a bone!

Or at least a bit of API for those modders to make a more complete campaign mode, maybe with a bit of commerce and outpost construction, etc. I mean, the industry stat' is in there... but it's not being used :(.

I hunger for commerce and industry to give purpose to my foolish vagrancy.

This. This a thousand times this.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on March 14, 2013, 06:14:35 PM
I don't give two craps about industry before we get exploration and multiple systems. I still remember the sense of dread from Escape Velocity and Escape Velocity Override when you are getting low on fuel and jumping into uncharted systems... so good.

I also really want more interaction with characters in the game, and I'm curious about Officers. I guess they'll be NPCs with personality traits and skills that can be assigned to captain one of your ships or manage an outpost?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on March 14, 2013, 07:53:18 PM
I don't give two craps about industry before we get exploration and multiple systems. I still remember the sense of dread from Escape Velocity and Escape Velocity Override when you are getting low on fuel and jumping into uncharted systems... so good.
You stop that! Now I can't think about anything else, haha.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Railgun on March 14, 2013, 08:19:29 PM
Well, it's a matter of tastes and opinions after all :).

I'd rather have a bit of industry and commerce because multiple systems wouldn't change much to the current gameplay - you'd find more of what we have already, in different systems. Industry and commerce increase the stakes - they give something to gain, something to lose, and something to fight for.

The combination would be exciting - other systems play the role of markets, territory, and hard-to-reach places, which increase the value of industry, commerce, and politics. But as a stand-alone, I don't think it would add much.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Trylobot on March 14, 2013, 08:32:34 PM
I see the addition of BoundsAPI; would you mind adding a ShipSpriteAPI as well? :D
"SetShipSprite", provide ID of an already-loaded ship sprite :D

:D

(You know why :D)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on March 14, 2013, 09:44:40 PM
I hope Combat Readiness isn't going to only affect you, because that's lame and waters down the mechanics as you'll never face a weakened enemy fleet.



Furthermore why are frigates being nerfed again?  It's not like they're super powerful, they tend to die enmasse to me.  It also seems like a cop-out to say stress, do cruiser and capital ship crew members somehow not suffer the same kind of stress from being in combat?  I really don't see why frigates need a nerf, frigates tend to have the lower range than larger ships due to smaller slots and less of a bonus from Integrated Targeting Unit.  Furthermore this means that you can't make a frigate that can last long-term in combat which waters down frigate customization.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Pentakill on March 14, 2013, 09:52:11 PM
@Pentakill: Right; what others have said. I'll just add that I'm very much aware of the dangers of tinkering, and this is most assuredly not that. I appreciate your candor and concern, though.

I appreciate the quick and on-point reply, there's really no substitute for good communication and you, sir, are a master in that respect.

On several other topics:

Missiles: As someone who adores missiles more than most, I find myself on your side of the fence here because when used properly, especially with the right skills, ships, and load-outs, missiles are incredibly effective and devastating. Whether people see this as a small nerf, or perhaps a small buff, i'm not worried missiles will be going anywhere anytime soon.

Frigates: I often start a map with a large fleet of frigates because they are cost efficient, fast, and disposable. Then move into larger ships as the game progresses. As far as this change to frigates it makes them more realistic in my book. As you briefly covered, you can't expect an armada of frigates alone to conquer the universe without large and nearby supply lines.

While these are just the opinions from one of many players, feedback is always helpful and I wanted you to know there is at least one missile lover out there who's okay with the changes.
 
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on March 14, 2013, 10:18:57 PM
Furthermore why are frigates being nerfed again?  It's not like they're super powerful, they tend to die enmasse to me.  It also seems like a cop-out to say stress, do cruiser and capital ship crew members somehow not suffer the same kind of stress from being in combat?  I really don't see why frigates need a nerf, frigates tend to have the lower range than larger ships due to smaller slots and less of a bonus from Integrated Targeting Unit.  Furthermore this means that you can't make a frigate that can last long-term in combat which waters down frigate customization.

Frigates are also getting an across the board speed buff so that they can be more in their niche. Depending on how large the buff is, I suspect frigates will be significantly more deadly in this patch, not less :P. I guess we'll see.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 14, 2013, 10:54:31 PM
One problem with the cost for missile firing is that the optimal playstile is to not use them. This would emphasize it much more. Isn't it kinda stupid to equip my ship with something that makes me feel bad when using it?

Well, that's not entirely true, is it? Presumably, using the missile successfully has some benefit, too. Getting a faster kill is often more than about just saving time - you're also potentially saving damage taken by your ships.

The tactical decision now is just how much/what composition you want to deploy. You're basically betting what you think you can handle.

How does the AI handle this? I'm guessing it's just going to deploy everything, but it would be nice if it tried to conserve its own CR in case your fleet is much smaller. You know, for future battles and such.

The idea is that the AI will try to avoid over-deploying - i.e. it'll try to top what you have on the field, within reason. If it does end up over-committing, it can always "stand down" after combat to get the CR back, at the cost of letting you get away. Assuming it managed to win, that is.


Can we have a bit of industry/economy thrown in please? Just a bit? Like a bone to a dog? I want a bone!

Or at least a bit of API for those modders to make a more complete campaign mode, maybe with a bit of commerce and outpost construction, etc. I mean, the industry stat' is in there... but it's not being used :(.

I hunger for commerce and industry to give purpose to my foolish vagrancy.

This. This a thousand times this.

I hear you - working towards that. I don't think a half-assed implementation of industry would be helpful here, though, and I don't think creating industry stuff in a relative vacuum and then hoping it can be connected well to combat would work out. CR is the bridge to bigger and better campaign things.

I see the addition of BoundsAPI; would you mind adding a ShipSpriteAPI as well? :D
"SetShipSprite", provide ID of an already-loaded ship sprite :D

:D

(You know why :D)

I do indeed :) Noted down; will take a look.


I hope Combat Readiness isn't going to only affect you, because that's lame and waters down the mechanics as you'll never face a weakened enemy fleet.

It affects everyone.


Missiles: As someone who adores missiles more than most, I find myself on your side of the fence here because when used properly, especially with the right skills, ships, and load-outs, missiles are incredibly effective and devastating. Whether people see this as a small nerf, or perhaps a small buff, i'm not worried missiles will be going anywhere anytime soon.

...

While these are just the opinions from one of many players, feedback is always helpful and I wanted you to know there is at least one missile lover out there who's okay with the changes.
 

Thanks for chiming in with that!


Frigates are also getting an across the board speed buff so that they can be more in their niche. Depending on how large the buff is, I suspect frigates will be significantly more deadly in this patch, not less :P. I guess we'll see.

Oh, I think I forgot to mention one thing about the role of frigates in escape-style battles. The pursuing side can choose to deploy their fighters and frigates from the left or right instead of at the bottom. That potentially brings those ships closer to the flanks of the retreating fleet and also puts them in much better position to control some of the objectives. As you might imagine, control of the Nav Buoy points can make or break an escape. On the flip side, when you're escaping, having fast escort ships to control or at least contest those is what gives larger ships a chance to get away.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: RawCode on March 14, 2013, 11:35:05 PM
IMHO
As stated in devlog mods will have chance to alter effects of CR, there is completely no reason to complain about existing mods with imbalanced ships become ever more imbalanced.

for vanilla - high cost of missiles shoud encourage player to think abit, not just shooting reapers from all possible mounts to halfdead hound.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Foxd1e on March 14, 2013, 11:44:35 PM
So pretty much the Escape Phase becomes the Frigates time to shine? That's cool and makes sense.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gabrybbo on March 15, 2013, 01:41:12 AM
Oh, I think I forgot to mention one thing about the role of frigates in escape-style battles. The pursuing side can choose to deploy their fighters and frigates from the left or right instead of at the bottom. That potentially brings those ships closer to the flanks of the retreating fleet and also puts them in much better position to control some of the objectives. As you might imagine, control of the Nav Buoy points can make or break an escape. On the flip side, when you're escaping, having fast escort ships to control or at least contest those is what gives larger ships a chance to get away.

This i like :3
Now there's a reason to have a slow assault fighter wing with a heavy destroyer's firepower and staying power in your fleet, if said wing can be deployed in the enemy's flank right from the start.

Also, i assume that each frigate and fighter wing will be able to be deployed on a different side of the battlefield, so i can deploy half my fighters on the right and half on the left, is this right?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 15, 2013, 08:08:53 AM
One problem with the cost for missile firing is that the optimal playstile is to not use them. This would emphasize it much more. Isn't it kinda stupid to equip my ship with something that makes me feel bad when using it?
Well, that's not entirely true, is it? Presumably, using the missile successfully has some benefit, too. Getting a faster kill is often more than about just saving time - you're also potentially saving damage taken by your ships.

Rereading, I think I misunderstood your idea about giving back CR for not firing missiles. Sry 'bout that. I thought you wanted both mechanisms together, which would have been a bit much.


Anyway...

Do you still plan a blogpost about the new combat mechanics? I think they deserve more then a few lines of explanation :)

And: will missions be influenced by CR or the new combat mechanics in any way? For some of the missions very low or high CR would be plausible. Will there be multi-part missions?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: RawCode on March 15, 2013, 08:12:32 AM
can you add Ship\Person name manager plugins (or name generation event)

static files are OK but there are TONS of runtime generators to do this job much more better then game can.
controlling ship names already possible, but name generation event will improve situation a lot.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JT on March 15, 2013, 09:27:26 AM
The tactical decision now is just how much/what composition you want to deploy. You're basically betting what you think you can handle.

How does the AI handle this? I'm guessing it's just going to deploy everything, but it would be nice if it tried to conserve its own CR in case your fleet is much smaller. You know, for future battles and such.

The idea is that the AI will try to avoid over-deploying - i.e. it'll try to top what you have on the field, within reason. If it does end up over-committing, it can always "stand down" after combat to get the CR back, at the cost of letting you get away. Assuming it managed to win, that is.

Hrm, thinking on this, does this affect the pre-battle deployment? I.e., does this mean that the AI always "moves last" in pre-battle deployments and will always commit more than what you've declared, or is it processed in real time on an I-go-you-go system where when you add a ship, it adds a ship (or ships) and then waits for you to commit more, continuing to do so until there are no ships left to commit or you decide not to commit any more?

Or is the pre-battle deployment simply a double-blind guess and then the only amount of tactical deployment comes in the battle phase? A double-blind guess in this case would be remarkably odd, since you're already able on the campaign level to detect discrete classes of enemy ships at range, but that at that level of sensor resolution still somehow unable to detect which units are moving for an intercept versus which ones are hanging back...?

I suppose this could be handwaved by explaining that what your sensors are actually doing on the campaign level is reading mass footprints and energy footprints: where each "fleet" reads as one gigantic "blur" on your scope, and then using advanced spectrometry and computer heuristics you're able to decode what that "blur" is composed of, but don't have nearly enough detail to determine the individual positions of each unit in the blur. (The little ships floating around on the map are the actual physical representations of the ships if you had an omniscient perspective, but don't represent what you as a person can actually see.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sproginator on March 15, 2013, 09:31:44 AM
Will this break any mods? Will I have to add anything extra?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: robokill on March 15, 2013, 09:42:08 AM
Would it be possible to have fuel alongside the supplies to be used to effect C.R.? This would give fuel actual use in the game.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 15, 2013, 10:08:27 AM
Hrm, thinking on this, does this affect the pre-battle deployment? I.e., does this mean that the AI always "moves last" in pre-battle deployments and will always commit more than what you've declared, or is it processed in real time on an I-go-you-go system where when you add a ship, it adds a ship (or ships) and then waits for you to commit more, continuing to do so until there are no ships left to commit or you decide not to commit any more?

I would assume that the inferior fleets always deploys all ships, and the superior fleet, knowing the total enemy strength, deploys that and then some. Or is there any reason for the inferior fleet to under-deploy?


Mh, if phase ships end up being invisible on the campaign map/prior to a battle, this could result in some very nice opportunities for traps. Imagine leaving your heavy ships behind and speeding across the map with your frigates to quickly take out the enemy transporter, when suddenly a Doom emerges from the fog of war  :)


Would it be possible to have fuel alongside the supplies to be used to effect C.R.? This would give fuel actual use in the game.

It will get useful once interstellar travel is implemented. No need for stop-gap mechanics here, I think.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 15, 2013, 11:03:59 AM
Also, i assume that each frigate and fighter wing will be able to be deployed on a different side of the battlefield, so i can deploy half my fighters on the right and half on the left, is this right?

The way it works right now is clicking on a fighter/frigate cycles through "deploy", "deploy left", and "deploy right". So, any combination you like.


Do you still plan a blogpost about the new combat mechanics? I think they deserve more then a few lines of explanation :)

And: will missions be influenced by CR or the new combat mechanics in any way? For some of the missions very low or high CR would be plausible. Will there be multi-part missions?

Yeah, I'd still like to write a blog post about it.

As far as missions, still working that through. Definitely no multi-part ones, but whether CR will be adjustable via the API (or whether it'll just default to the maximum value for a given crew level) is TBD.


Hrm, thinking on this, does this affect the pre-battle deployment? I.e., does this mean that the AI always "moves last" in pre-battle deployments and will always commit more than what you've declared, or is it processed in real time on an I-go-you-go system where when you add a ship, it adds a ship (or ships) and then waits for you to commit more, continuing to do so until there are no ships left to commit or you decide not to commit any more?

With the caveat that I haven't touched the AI yet, I imagine it'll probably deploy a fighter wing or a fighter and then escalate from there to match what's on the field. So, like the latter option you've described.


can you add Ship\Person name manager plugins (or name generation event)

static files are OK but there are TONS of runtime generators to do this job much more better then game can.
controlling ship names already possible, but name generation event will improve situation a lot.

I'll take a look. Let's not turn this into "request a feature", though, especially if the feature is totally unrelated to stuff in the notes. There's the suggestions forum for that.


Will this break any mods? Will I have to add anything extra?

Probably, though I'm trying to minimize breaking changes. Wouldn't worry about it overmuch just now, the release is quite a ways off.



I would assume that the inferior fleets always deploys all ships, and the superior fleet, knowing the total enemy strength, deploys that and then some. Or is there any reason for the inferior fleet to under-deploy?

I'd imagine a lot of the time the inferior fleet is the player's, in which case, I think so. You also can't count on the inferior fleet still being small enough to fully deploy within the battlesize limit, which is now player-adjustable.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xanderh on March 15, 2013, 11:34:54 AM
Looking forward to the patch, it sounds great.

Any details on the speed buff for frigates? I don't think anyone would mind getting all the numbers as they are right now ;)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sloul on March 15, 2013, 04:26:34 PM
Looks promising  :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 15, 2013, 04:31:55 PM
Any details on the speed buff for frigates? I don't think anyone would mind getting all the numbers as they are right now ;)

Roughly in the +25 (flat, not percentage) range.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sproginator on March 15, 2013, 06:01:22 PM
Well, I look forward to the release, however, is there anyway to have a kind of difficulty setting that disables the C.R features?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on March 15, 2013, 06:05:35 PM
That sounds a bit like asking for a difficulty setting that disables shields...

You'll probably be able to at least mostly disable it via mods, though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sproginator on March 15, 2013, 07:03:24 PM
That sounds a bit like asking for a difficulty setting that disables shields...

You'll probably be able to at least mostly disable it via mods, though.
I hope so :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: RawCode on March 15, 2013, 08:14:25 PM
mod disable definely will be possible, expecting that it will be possible without black TOS violating magic.

for combat phase, i expect entire stages definition will be changeble by replacing mission definition inside battleplugin, othervice it will be very very limited.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Uomoz on March 16, 2013, 03:46:21 AM
Well, I look forward to the release, however, is there anyway to have a kind of difficulty setting that disables the C.R features?

Where I already heard that? Oh yes, accidents.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sproginator on March 16, 2013, 05:38:31 AM
I mean, I just don't like the ammo requirement, so an option to disable that would be lovely :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on March 16, 2013, 02:44:13 PM
I think it's pretty pointless to complain about quality of life features in a game with such an enormous and active modding community... Just mod it out if it bothers you in the future, or someone else will. Besides, hopefully the features will make the game more interesting overall and you won't even remember why you were so bothered in the first place.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: K-64 on March 16, 2013, 02:46:14 PM
That depends on whether or not the feature will be hardcoded or not. Since if it is, I'd hope nobody does try to mod that aspect.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on March 16, 2013, 02:53:25 PM
That's true, but since CR is a stat based mechanic there is very little reason why we wouldn't eventually be able to access most aspects of it. Alex is TC friendly after all.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: K-64 on March 16, 2013, 02:54:25 PM
There is that, yeah.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 16, 2013, 03:11:47 PM
Since, I think, nobody has yet, I just want to say that I love all the small stuff in the patch notes. The stuff on this list alone will get rid of most of what I find a bit annoying atm.

  • Player can retreat their flagship by pressing "enter" when within 2000 pixels of the retreat border and facing towards it. Retreat popup dialog is gone.
  • X button in the top right corner and Alt-F4 now close the game
  • Scrollbars are now draggable/clickable/etc
  • Phase Skimmer will now face towards the mouse cursor when it comes out of the skim, unless there's a target set, in which case it'll point towards the target. Phase Teleporter behavior is unchanged.
  • Added "shield arc" indicator to refit screen
  • Increased top speed and acceleration for most frigates
  • Pre-combat ship tooltips now only show essential information, can be expanded to show full information by pressing F1
  • Ships traveling over their top speed (due to zero-flux coasting, for example) will automatically engage maneuvering thrusters to slow down
  • Flux bar now shows some activity when the flux level is at 0 while flux is being generated and dissipated at a faster rate

Oh by the way, will Objective bonuses affect frigates now? Possible even fighters?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: sdmike1 on March 16, 2013, 04:59:57 PM
Since, I think, nobody has yet, I just want to say that I love all the small stuff in the patch notes. The stuff on this list alone will get rid of most of what I find a bit annoying atm.

  • Player can retreat their flagship by pressing "enter" when within 2000 pixels of the retreat border and facing towards it. Retreat popup dialog is gone.
  • X button in the top right corner and Alt-F4 now close the game
  • Scrollbars are now draggable/clickable/etc
  • Phase Skimmer will now face towards the mouse cursor when it comes out of the skim, unless there's a target set, in which case it'll point towards the target. Phase Teleporter behavior is unchanged.
  • Added "shield arc" indicator to refit screen
  • Increased top speed and acceleration for most frigates
  • Pre-combat ship tooltips now only show essential information, can be expanded to show full information by pressing F1
  • Ships traveling over their top speed (due to zero-flux coasting, for example) will automatically engage maneuvering thrusters to slow down
  • Flux bar now shows some activity when the flux level is at 0 while flux is being generated and dissipated at a faster rate
Not to make the obligatory +1 but, my post is an obligatory +1 :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Griffinhart on March 16, 2013, 07:57:35 PM
Scrollbars are now draggable/clickable/etc

\o/

-- Griffinhart
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JT on March 16, 2013, 11:55:59 PM
Yeah, forgot to mention how much I like the disengagement feature myself. It really, really channels the Star Trek "go to warp"/Star Fleet Battles "disengage by acceleration" concept.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xanderh on March 17, 2013, 02:51:40 AM
Agree with everyone else on the "disengage" part. It kinda gets in the way right now, and after the change, it won't anymore.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 18, 2013, 12:37:45 PM
Oh by the way, will Objective bonuses affect frigates now? Possible even fighters?

Maybe. May have to tweak some stuff, though - it gets a little insane when speed-boosting skills and the frigate speed increase combine, so a potential extra +50 to speed is... a lot.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on March 18, 2013, 12:46:45 PM
Maybe change the percentage speed bonus to a flat bonus based on hull size?  Compare to, for example, unstable injector - for a slow capital ship, the skill (even maxed) adds maybe +3 top speed, versus +20 for the hull mod, while a zippy frigate gets notably more benefit (even in comparison to the increased benefit from the hull mod).  And then it wouldn't get quite so silly in combination with an increase to base frigate speeds.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: robokill on March 18, 2013, 08:06:41 PM
Theres been a significate decrease it seams in regular forum members.
i remember .5 and when we hit 25 pages of "sweet cool" before any crucial discussion on day 3.
Or was it the update directly after campaghne. (not bug fix).
It makes me sad  :'( .
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on March 18, 2013, 08:12:57 PM
They'll be back.  :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DornoDiosMio on March 18, 2013, 08:52:54 PM
Theres been a significate decrease it seams in regular forum members.
i remember .5 and when we hit 25 pages of "sweet cool" before any crucial discussion on day 3.
Or was it the update directly after campaghne. (not bug fix).
It makes me sad  :'( .

Sweet! Cool! I can't wait!

See, new people like me will come around to pick up the slack too.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: robokill on March 18, 2013, 09:09:17 PM
THERE WILL BE BLOOD!!!!!!!!! >:(

pirate blood, sorry swallowed some marbles. ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on March 18, 2013, 10:09:58 PM
well, that's kinda to be expected considering how long alex's been taking....

people get bored and move on, i haven't been the most active these days either

when there's something to actually talk about, maybe people will get a little more hyped about this thing
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Decer304 on March 18, 2013, 10:18:03 PM
Well, i'd rather a game that someone has taken time into making and perfecting, that some crap someone pumped out in a short period of time.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on March 18, 2013, 11:02:51 PM
The problem is that most suggestions and discussion happens after a large patch, and right now we're only on a hotfix.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: StahnAileron on March 18, 2013, 11:18:13 PM
CR Mechanic + Missile Deabte = My trains of thought:

1) High CR = Proper Maintenance and/or highly trained and non-stressed crew.
2) Proper Maintenance = Things(tm) work like they're supposed to or perhaps better.
3) Trained Crew = Makes Things(tm) work a bit better than the spec.

Increased Missile ammo doesn't make much sense since missile launchers are designed with a set number of tubes. Even designs with a magazine are fixed in amount with how much a magazine can hold. Neither good maintenance or a good crew can fix that. However there is the following I can think of that reflect points (2) and (3).

A) If a launcher is maintained well, it could fire faster = small bonus to ROF for high CR?
B) A good crew (assuming the ship has spare ammo in storage and can access the launchers somehow) could theoretically reload the launcher under combat conditions = Low chance or rate to reload missiles.

(A) is the most logical and easily feasible. It's only be useless for single-shot missiles. (Single Reaper, Single Harpoon, etc.)

(B) would be problematic to implement as I think about it. I can definitely see it done on larger vessels with good cargo space. Frigates with low cargo sapce is a bust though. (Take the Hyperion for instance. I can't see that sucker carrying spare ammo despite the math in regards to cargo numbers). There also the problem with rate/chance of reload. That would be a balancing problem. Ammo levels vary greatly between launchers (Single shot all the way up to 100 for the rockets, not counting Expanded Racks.) An across the board rate will favor one ammo count over another. (Flat rate would favor low count, % rate would favor higher counts.) The other option would be to give each missile weapon its own bonus rate. That would be more numbers to remember, handle, and balance.

Now, for my own questions:

Alex, do you think any other ammo-based weapons will affect CR? I'm thinking mostly of Ballistics, but there are some ammo-based Energy-DMG type weapons. (AM Blaster or Mjollnir, for example). You'd need to reload ammo based weapons between fights, no? Technically, that would affect combat readiness. I imagine you kinda don't want to touch on that yet (if at all) since that could push players towards pure, unlimited-ammo Energy-type weapons.

On the flip side, might CR eventually affect ballistic ammo count if CR is too low between fights? Speaking of which: if battle are now in phases, will ammo levels at the end of phase one reflect in phase 2? Or will ammo be restored between phases/engagements?

Lastly, will we have visible supply consumption for missile ammo now? Supplies only have applied to crew, fleet repair, and fleet "maintenance" (for being over limits), yet not to the expendables/consumables known as ammunition. I ask the same if ballistic weapon ammo usage will affect CR and such at some later time (if at all). I just find it kinda strange that supplies really only consist of 2 things: Food (crew) and ship components (Fleet; think armor, wiring, conduit, etc.) Apparently ammo is freely available? ::)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: RawCode on March 19, 2013, 01:11:36 AM
Realism is wrong word, you shoud not use it in context of starfarer.
Currently player skill increase damage and amount of missiles, magically.
I cant see any reason why CR and crew levels can't improve same stats same way.

(Also we need more crew levels to smooth effects, maybe 5-7 levels from very poor to very good)

Just imagine - tactical nuclear charge (Reaper) manufactured by local nano assembly \ universal constructor by known bluprint.

How you going to increase its speed or damage without altering blueprint?
Answer: you cant
Right answer: with magic.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Pelhamds on March 19, 2013, 02:13:25 AM
Realism is wrong word, you shoud not use it in context of starfarer.
Currently player skill increase damage and amount of missiles, magically.
I cant see any reason why CR and crew levels can't improve same stats same way.

(Also we need more crew levels to smooth effects, maybe 5-7 levels from very poor to very good)

Just imagine - tactical nuclear charge (Reaper) manufactured by local nano assembly \ universal constructor by known bluprint.

How you going to increase its speed or damage without altering blueprint?
Answer: you cant
Right answer: with magic.
Nope.

I imagine that any commander worth his salt would modify their weapons to how they fight, therefore increasing 'skills' in missile combat means you are more experienced in using them and have changed the specifications to reflect how you fight (e.g. variants of ships).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on March 19, 2013, 02:32:44 AM
Nope.

I imagine that any commander worth his salt would modify their weapons to how they fight, therefore increasing 'skills' in missile combat means you are more experienced in using them and have changed the specifications to reflect how you fight (e.g. variants of ships).
Well now, i don't think that, today, any captain of, let say, nuclear submarine, no matter how experience he is, can increase number of torpedoes. I don't know how it goes but i don't think he can come and say: "Hey put there one more torpedo." Smarter captains are better in deciding when to shoot torpedo, aka. how to use weapons efficiently. Ships are build by engineers, how, why, and because something is where it is, that is stuff that engineers decides. Captain do not know and do not need to know, they just need to know what ship can or can't do. That way they know how far they can push them.
Ok, i write enough, what i want to say is that i agree with RawCode. It's magic  ;D


Buuuuut as for more dmg from ballistic and energy weapons i think that is ok. Better captain know where weak-spots of enemy armor is so he can tell/learn his crew how to use that against enemy so they can make more damage.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Pelhamds on March 19, 2013, 02:53:31 AM
Nope.

I imagine that any commander worth his salt would modify their weapons to how they fight, therefore increasing 'skills' in missile combat means you are more experienced in using them and have changed the specifications to reflect how you fight (e.g. variants of ships).
Well now, i don't think that, today, any captain of, let say, nuclear submarine, no matter how experience he is, can increase number of torpedoes. I don't know how it goes but i don't think he can come and say: "Hey put there one more torpedo." Smarter captains are better in deciding when to shoot torpedo, aka. how to use weapons efficiently. Ships are build by engineers, how, why, and because something is where it is, that is stuff that engineers decides. Captain do not know and do not need to know, they just need to know what ship can or can't do. That way they know how far they can push them.
Ok, i write enough, what i want to say is that i agree with RawCode. It's magic  ;D


Buuuuut as for more dmg from ballistic and energy weapons i think that is ok. Better captain know where weak-spots of enemy armor is so he can tell/learn his crew how to use that against enemy so they can make more damage.
NOONONONON! :)

I believe that this is true, as for example during long wars (e.g. Vietnam,WW2, Gulf) tank commanders for example changed parts of their tank, these were not made by the engineers? They added armour plates, more supplies, more storage (FOR AMMO.....)  this does happen in real life, the example about missiles changing the payload was certainly a long shot but the only explanation for more damage I could see apart form changing the launchers...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on March 19, 2013, 03:02:10 AM
NOONONONON! :)

I believe that this is true, as for example during long wars (e.g. Vietnam,WW2, Gulf) tank commanders for example changed parts of their tank, these were not made by the engineers? They added armour plates, more supplies, more storage (FOR AMMO.....)  this does happen in real life, the example about missiles changing the payload was certainly a long shot but the only explanation for more damage I could see apart form changing the launchers...
Well one thing is tank and other thing is space ship. Try to mess around with submarine, cos submarine is closest thing to space ship that humans have with weapons on/in it. It's more complicated and have really nasty environment - space.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Pelhamds on March 19, 2013, 03:06:40 AM
NOONONONON! :)

I believe that this is true, as for example during long wars (e.g. Vietnam,WW2, Gulf) tank commanders for example changed parts of their tank, these were not made by the engineers? They added armour plates, more supplies, more storage (FOR AMMO.....)  this does happen in real life, the example about missiles changing the payload was certainly a long shot but the only explanation for more damage I could see apart form changing the launchers...
Well one thing is tank and other thing is space ship. Try to mess around with submarine, cos submarine is closest thing to space ship that humans have with weapons on/in it. It's more complicated and have really nasty environment - space.

SPAAAAAACE.....in Space.

Within the game the ships feel more like tanks than submarines, though I understand the comparison to real life, I don't believe that a captain would not dare modify parts of the ship.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gaizokubanou on March 19, 2013, 04:23:20 AM
Given the lore, I think most captains would be too busy trying to keep the ship operational.  Even if extremely talented individuals make modification, it's doubtful that there can be any complex modifications made.  Every on-field modifications I can think of are extremely rudimentary or minor.  To make big changes, you need proper tools and there is no way that character level based bonuses reflect such change.  What they represent is more akin to changes in personal--machine stays the same, but the users learn to drive it to its limit.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Talkie Toaster on March 19, 2013, 04:34:54 AM
Lastly, will we have visible supply consumption for missile ammo now? Supplies only have applied to crew, fleet repair, and fleet "maintenance" (for being over limits), yet not to the expendables/consumables known as ammunition. I ask the same if ballistic weapon ammo usage will affect CR and such at some later time (if at all). I just find it kinda strange that supplies really only consist of 2 things: Food (crew) and ship components (Fleet; think armor, wiring, conduit, etc.) Apparently ammo is freely available? ::)
The problem with adding supply consumption for ammo is it adds a metagame of 'Shoot as little as possible' to combat, which is not going to be particularly fun- especially when you have regenerating shields and it's easy to waste ammo. It also means a lot of frustration with the AI over ammo wastage; the AI is set to be conservative and avoid hull damage, which is good, but the cost for that is lots of wasted ammo as it doesn't press the advantage and drags fights out. So suddenly one of the AI behaviors that minimises player annoyance (less likely to throw themselves into trouble & explode) becomes a source of it.

It also puts higher upkeep costs on ballistics-heavy low-tech ships, which doesn't seem to go along with the codex descriptions (and presumably a balancing mechanic that'll arrive at some point for them) that say higher-end ships are harder to upkeep.

I can kind of get behind missiles costing OP as they're low-quantity, high-effect things like grenades in an FPS rather than staple weapons, but they're a bit anemic in general use for that IMO.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: RawCode on March 19, 2013, 06:46:05 AM
Shield and energy weapons can drain fuel, and maximum possible amount of flux can be implemented.

like:
Frigate with energy weapons and shield can only proces up to 10 000 flux (or 50k or x times maximum flux), after that value venting rate start to degrade.
Flux used to shoot weapons counted as X times more.
Flux pool go negative (with basically unlimited negative value) and can be restored with fuel over time.

This will place missiles\ballistic\energy\shields in same tactical level - use only if you really need it, if you dont want your missile destroyers to spam pilums - dont deploy them or order to hold fire.

As for stats:

No matter how well you at shooting gun, bullet have constant speed\weight\armor penetration.

Ever if you reached level 90 at shooting, you can't pierce heavy tanks with 9mm pistol.
Every type of ammo\damage increase from stats\crew is magic.
Magic is OK for sci-fi game.

And not, IRL you cant just rig with submarine reactor to increase it's power by 2% per level you gained from destroying other submarine.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on March 19, 2013, 07:29:53 AM
As for stats:

No matter how well you at shooting gun, bullet have constant speed\weight\armor penetration.

Ever if you reached level 90 at shooting, you can't pierce heavy tanks with 9mm pistol.
Every type of ammo\damage increase from stats\crew is magic.
Magic is OK for sci-fi game.
Well... Hmmmm... No!  ;D  It's not fair to compare tank armor vs 9mm pistol. All weapons in this game CAN (really, they can man) damage any ship. So it's like tank vs other tank. If you know where to shoot aka. where is armor weaker then you will make more damage against your opponent who shoot in thicker armor. Right?  :D

And not, IRL you cant just rig with submarine reactor to increase it's power by 2% per level you gained from destroying other submarine.
O yeah?! Yes you can man.Yes you CAN! After blasting all that submarines when you see next one your blood boils, safety protocols don't mean fart for you any more, you push your ship to the max like there is no tomorrow and cos of that you manage to squeeze that 2% or more out of it buuuuut in compare to normal usage of reactor. YEAH!  ;D   But then again you may blow up in process  ::)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on March 19, 2013, 07:32:14 AM
How about oval shields? because the round ones are limiting ship size and functionality by a lot.  1 extra value to set in the editor can't be the end of the world.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on March 19, 2013, 07:38:40 AM
How about oval shields? because the round ones are limiting ship size and functionality by a lot.  1 extra value to set in the editor can't be the end of the world.
It can  ;D

It's not about shields it's about collision radius. Collision radius dictate all. My guess is that it would take a lot of time to make game work with oval collision radius.
Don't get me wrong it would be awesome because we could make long thin ships, or bigger long ships but i don't think it's gonna happen.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on March 19, 2013, 07:59:18 AM
well, 2 extra values, set width of collision radius and shield radius, length is already there.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on March 19, 2013, 08:42:29 AM
well, 2 extra values, set width of collision radius and shield radius, length is already there.
I know that but i don't know how hard is it to implement it in-game. I guess Alex would do that if it just that easy. He didn't put it so i guess it's more complicated than it looks. Probably it have lot's with AI. Its one thing to know where is circle boundaries but it's another thing to know where are boundaries of something that isn't circle. If you turn circle a bit left its same but if you turn oval thing a bit left it's not same. Maybe it would required much more coding for AI... Dunno.  :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 19, 2013, 08:45:05 AM
Alex, do you think any other ammo-based weapons will affect CR? I'm thinking mostly of Ballistics, but there are some ammo-based Energy-DMG type weapons. (AM Blaster or Mjollnir, for example). You'd need to reload ammo based weapons between fights, no? Technically, that would affect combat readiness. I imagine you kinda don't want to touch on that yet (if at all) since that could push players towards pure, unlimited-ammo Energy-type weapons.

Probably not. Missiles are different in that they're both low-ammo and not generally a primary weapon type. For ballistics, ammo is there more for feel than mechanical reasons. I might actually eliminate ammo for ballistics altogether, or just bump it up to where it doesn't matter. Limited ammo on primary weapons creates some undesirable dynamics, such as waiting out the AI's ammo, aforementioned issues with what the desired AI behavior is (cautious to avoid damage vs aggressive to make efficient use of ammo), etc.


On the flip side, might CR eventually affect ballistic ammo count if CR is too low between fights? Speaking of which: if battle are now in phases, will ammo levels at the end of phase one reflect in phase 2? Or will ammo be restored between phases/engagements?

No, for the same reasons - not the kind of dynamics I'd want to encourage. All ammo is reloaded between phases.


Lastly, will we have visible supply consumption for missile ammo now? Supplies only have applied to crew, fleet repair, and fleet "maintenance" (for being over limits), yet not to the expendables/consumables known as ammunition. I ask the same if ballistic weapon ammo usage will affect CR and such at some later time (if at all). I just find it kinda strange that supplies really only consist of 2 things: Food (crew) and ship components (Fleet; think armor, wiring, conduit, etc.) Apparently ammo is freely available? ::)

At the moment, regaining CR has a slight supply cost associated with it, and ships have a per-hull maintenance cost, so I'd look at ammo as being one of those.

Maybe change the percentage speed bonus to a flat bonus based on hull size?  Compare to, for example, unstable injector - for a slow capital ship, the skill (even maxed) adds maybe +3 top speed, versus +20 for the hull mod, while a zippy frigate gets notably more benefit (even in comparison to the increased benefit from the hull mod).  And then it wouldn't get quite so silly in combination with an increase to base frigate speeds.

Hmm. The percentage bonus from the skill is only a small part of it, though. You get +75 (0-flux) +50 (2x Nav Buoy) +40? (Aug Engines) +40? (Injector). That's, what, +205 to speed? Then another 20 or so from Helsmanship for a 200-speed frigate, which at that point isn't a big deal. So, I don't know. Might disallow the AE + UI combo, but... well, this should probably go into another thread. I think speed for many ships, not just for frigates, tends to get a little out of control if stacked.


Re: shields stuff - let's keep this on-topic. There are several threads in the Suggestions forum talking about this very idea. (Short answer: it's rather involved.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gaizokubanou on March 19, 2013, 09:34:25 AM
WOoo unlimited ballistics would be awesome!  I recommend going unlimited rather than limited but with limit so high as to not mattering at all... because even if it had no practical limitation, ammo count itself would probably end up bugging obsessive people like me.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Apophis on March 19, 2013, 10:15:44 AM
I might actually eliminate ammo for ballistics altogether, or just bump it up to where it doesn't matter
I hope you don't remove ammo for ballistic or it will feel too arcadish
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on March 19, 2013, 10:20:36 AM
Actually... you know what might work better?  Instead of increasing the limits for ballistics, lower them - and add a "regenerate ammo when at zero flux" statistic, or maybe "regenerate ammo after X seconds of not-firing", typically with fairly high values for regen rate.  Thematically, this would mean, when you're not actively in combat you can resupply their magazines from stores.  And then the autoloader ship system?  The one that increases fire rate on ballistics?  Have it activate ammo regeneration, too, giving ships with it both increased firepower & increased longevity.

Edit: Another option might be, tying ballistic ammo regeneration to venting - maybe hitting the "vent flux" button also triggers munitions restoration, and weapons remain offline until their ammo is fully restocked.  Ideally, I'd want a solution that doesn't involve adding yet another button for the player to remember, but still has the feel of "ballistic ships have limited combat windows, but can back off and restock munitions when they aren't actively fighting."
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Uomoz on March 19, 2013, 10:24:48 AM
Actually... you know what might work better?  Instead of increasing the limits for ballistics, lower them - and add a "regenerate ammo when at zero flux" statistic, or maybe "regenerate ammo after X seconds of not-firing", typically with fairly high values for regen rate.  Thematically, this would mean, when you're not actively in combat you can resupply their magazines from stores.  And then the autoloader ship system?  The one that increases fire rate on ballistics?  Have it activate ammo regeneration, too, giving ships with it both increased firepower & increased longevity.

Sounds good!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Psiyon on March 19, 2013, 10:41:55 AM
Actually... you know what might work better?  Instead of increasing the limits for ballistics, lower them - and add a "regenerate ammo when at zero flux" statistic, or maybe "regenerate ammo after X seconds of not-firing", typically with fairly high values for regen rate.  Thematically, this would mean, when you're not actively in combat you can resupply their magazines from stores.  And then the autoloader ship system?  The one that increases fire rate on ballistics?  Have it activate ammo regeneration, too, giving ships with it both increased firepower & increased longevity.
Probably one of the best ideas I've heard regarding weapons. This way, it makes it so you can't just endlessly spam low-flux kinetic weapons, while at the same time, making it so they aren't totally useless after they run out of ammo.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on March 19, 2013, 12:09:26 PM
Alex, do you think any other ammo-based weapons will affect CR? I'm thinking mostly of Ballistics, but there are some ammo-based Energy-DMG type weapons. (AM Blaster or Mjollnir, for example). You'd need to reload ammo based weapons between fights, no? Technically, that would affect combat readiness. I imagine you kinda don't want to touch on that yet (if at all) since that could push players towards pure, unlimited-ammo Energy-type weapons.

Probably not. Missiles are different in that they're both low-ammo and not generally a primary weapon type. For ballistics, ammo is there more for feel than mechanical reasons. I might actually eliminate ammo for ballistics altogether, or just bump it up to where it doesn't matter. Limited ammo on primary weapons creates some undesirable dynamics, such as waiting out the AI's ammo, aforementioned issues with what the desired AI behavior is (cautious to avoid damage vs aggressive to make efficient use of ammo), etc.
But if you don't have to worry about ammo counts at ALL then you'll just spam it all the time and game the AI that way. No one likes flying into a constant stream of death.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on March 19, 2013, 12:16:27 PM
Ideally, I'd want a solution that doesn't involve adding yet another button for the player to remember, but still has the feel of "ballistic ships have limited combat windows, but can back off and restock munitions when they aren't actively fighting."
Well maybe all ballistic weapon could have reload timer. When you run down your ammo (and only then) it's kicks in. Weapon is inactive for XX time and that time is used to, well, reload ammo :) So it's something that you can't control and goes automatic.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on March 19, 2013, 12:20:57 PM
i like that, some sort of reload mechanism

I prefer going offmap to reload somehow but I suppose that's a simpler implementation

Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: StahnAileron on March 19, 2013, 01:08:11 PM
First, let me make it clear to all others that I wasn't trying to make a suggestion. I was just trying to see what the future might hold in terms of develop of game mechanics.

Alex, do you think any other ammo-based weapons will affect CR? I'm thinking mostly of Ballistics, but there are some ammo-based Energy-DMG type weapons. (AM Blaster or Mjollnir, for example). You'd need to reload ammo based weapons between fights, no? Technically, that would affect combat readiness. I imagine you kinda don't want to touch on that yet (if at all) since that could push players towards pure, unlimited-ammo Energy-type weapons.

Probably not. Missiles are different in that they're both low-ammo and not generally a primary weapon type. For ballistics, ammo is there more for feel than mechanical reasons. I might actually eliminate ammo for ballistics altogether, or just bump it up to where it doesn't matter. Limited ammo on primary weapons creates some undesirable dynamics, such as waiting out the AI's ammo, aforementioned issues with what the desired AI behavior is (cautious to avoid damage vs aggressive to make efficient use of ammo), etc.

Well, my question became moot when you reveal you might eliminate ammo for all primary weapons. ::)

Related to that: would that open the possibility of new weapons being made that ARE ammo limited and meant more as secondary weapons like missiles? The AM Blaster is currently the closest thing to what I'm thinking of: powerful, but limited ammo. Good for bursts of firepower, but can only be used so many times, so not really meant to be primary weapons on a ship. Or specialty weapons, like an Energy Mount that can do Explosive or Kinetic DMG instead of the typical Jack-of-All-Trades EN-DMG.

On the flip side, might CR eventually affect ballistic ammo count if CR is too low between fights? Speaking of which: if battle are now in phases, will ammo levels at the end of phase one reflect in phase 2? Or will ammo be restored between phases/engagements?

No, for the same reasons - not the kind of dynamics I'd want to encourage. All ammo is reloaded between phases.

Okay, one less thing to worry about in a fight. ;)

Lastly, will we have visible supply consumption for missile ammo now? Supplies only have applied to crew, fleet repair, and fleet "maintenance" (for being over limits), yet not to the expendables/consumables known as ammunition. I ask the same if ballistic weapon ammo usage will affect CR and such at some later time (if at all). I just find it kinda strange that supplies really only consist of 2 things: Food (crew) and ship components (Fleet; think armor, wiring, conduit, etc.) Apparently ammo is freely available? ::)

At the moment, regaining CR has a slight supply cost associated with it, and ships have a per-hull maintenance cost, so I'd look at ammo as being one of those.

That works for me. ;D

I just wanted more reason to keep a stack of supplies in a fleet other than a simple, constant "upkeep" cost outside of in-flight repairs. Pillaging fleets gets irritating when you need to dump supplies constantly to make room for equipment. (Supply management is something of a nuisance currently; having something use up the supply "income" of fighting fleets or buying supplies justifies managing it a bit more closely.) Though now with the CR mechanic, I probably won't want to fight several fleets back to back as often, if at all ::)

For the ammo "issue": I believe there was a thread in the Suggestions section that advocated a "clip/reload" based system. More or less one idea that is mentioned here in response to your possible elimination of ammo altogether for primary weapons. You could have Weapon X fire Y rounds before needing Z secs to reload a full clip of Y rounds again.

I believe the balancing of Ballistic vs Energy was that Ballistics were flux efficient with limited ammo; Energy were Flux-costly but didn't have to worry about ammo limits (in most cases). The "clip size" for Energy was basically your Flux Capacity and the (constant) reload rate was your Flux Vent Rate (again, in most cases). I think a "clip" system for ballistics would be a decent compromise to eliminate the ammo "issue" while still retaining some of the aspects and mechanics of having "limited" ammo. You'd still have to worry about running out of ammo, but for timing reasons rather than endurance. ("Incoming missiles!" "The shields won't be able to take them!" "Activate PD!" *quick, short burst* "DAMN! I KNEW I shouldn't wasted all that ammo on those Wasps! >:( Evade to avoid or minimize damage as best as you can until the PD systems come back online!")

Otherwise, wouldn't you have to completely rebalance all the current weapons if you eliminated ammo?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 19, 2013, 01:25:43 PM
Actually... you know what might work better?  Instead of increasing the limits for ballistics, lower them - and add a "regenerate ammo when at zero flux" statistic, or maybe "regenerate ammo after X seconds of not-firing", typically with fairly high values for regen rate.  Thematically, this would mean, when you're not actively in combat you can resupply their magazines from stores.  


I really like that. It sounds like the perfect combination of the solution to the "limited ammo creates undesirable dynamics" issue and this:

Since we are talking about ammo, how about being able to reload ballistic weapons at the cost of CR, to represent the crew scrambling to grab and load ammo crates out of the cargo hold?
Oh, interesting idea! Will keep it in mind.

And I like the window of opportunity it might open for an attack on a ship with ballistic weapons.




But if you don't have to worry about ammo counts at ALL then you'll just spam it all the time and game the AI that way. No one likes flying into a constant stream of death.

If you fire mindlessly you will have a empty magazine very soon and then you'll have to stand down to reload very often.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 19, 2013, 02:02:06 PM
Interesting discussion, maybe someone can start a thread over in Suggestions so we can continue it?

I believe the balancing of Ballistic vs Energy was that Ballistics were flux efficient with limited ammo; Energy were Flux-costly but didn't have to worry about ammo limits (in most cases).

Just wanted to make a note here: ammo isn't a good balancing factor because it doesn't operate on the same timescale, at least when the count is high enough that it's meant to last through several fights. The general balancing of energy vs ballistic is "versatile and more costly" vs "more efficient but more specialized" (barring beams and other exceptions). Ammo *is* a balancing factor for missiles, though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on March 19, 2013, 02:04:06 PM
Interesting discussion, maybe someone can start a thread over in Suggestions so we can continue it?

Am working on that right now, actually.  Will edit this post with a link when I have it up.
And, new topic.  Yay! (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5853.0)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cosmitz on March 19, 2013, 05:18:50 PM
Damn you guys, every time i get far enough away from Starfa---starsector, i check the forum and get dragged back in. :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: StahnAileron on March 19, 2013, 05:32:37 PM
Interesting discussion, maybe someone can start a thread over in Suggestions so we can continue it?

I believe the balancing of Ballistic vs Energy was that Ballistics were flux efficient with limited ammo; Energy were Flux-costly but didn't have to worry about ammo limits (in most cases).

Just wanted to make a note here: ammo isn't a good balancing factor because it doesn't operate on the same timescale, at least when the count is high enough that it's meant to last through several fights. The general balancing of energy vs ballistic is "versatile and more costly" vs "more efficient but more specialized" (barring beams and other exceptions). Ammo *is* a balancing factor for missiles, though.

Oh, dammit. That's right. I forgot about the specialization of Ballistics with EXP vs KIN damage-types. Ironic since I kinda mentioned it in that same post... Okay, that reminder reset a few things back to where my thought process should've been at th starting point. I feel stupid... (Full Disclosure: I haven't touched SS in a while :P )
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tarran on March 19, 2013, 06:17:45 PM
Posting in this thread to watch it, don't mind me do do do...

Oh, yes, I do in fact moderately like these new changes, by the way, if you the random reader are curious.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Icelom on March 19, 2013, 09:15:28 PM
Alex, do you think any other ammo-based weapons will affect CR? I'm thinking mostly of Ballistics, but there are some ammo-based Energy-DMG type weapons. (AM Blaster or Mjollnir, for example). You'd need to reload ammo based weapons between fights, no? Technically, that would affect combat readiness. I imagine you kinda don't want to touch on that yet (if at all) since that could push players towards pure, unlimited-ammo Energy-type weapons.

Probably not. Missiles are different in that they're both low-ammo and not generally a primary weapon type. For ballistics, ammo is there more for feel than mechanical reasons. I might actually eliminate ammo for ballistics altogether, or just bump it up to where it doesn't matter. Limited ammo on primary weapons creates some undesirable dynamics, such as waiting out the AI's ammo, aforementioned issues with what the desired AI behavior is (cautious to avoid damage vs aggressive to make efficient use of ammo), etc.

What if running out of ballistic ammo caused a small CR drop (so supply drop as well) and used a longer reload time to "restock" the ammo bays like 10-30 seconds(or longer)... this means you cant run out of ammo unless you stay in the fight so long your CR is gone... but it also makes ammo have some relevance. This idea could be extended to missiles as well giving them a larger CR drop and a larger restocking time.

Just an idea, because i think ammo count should stay somewhat relevant but i also understand why it can be exploited, "waiting" out the enemy fleet to deplete all its ammo may be effective but is it really fun?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on March 20, 2013, 05:16:58 AM
How about being able to call resupply drones from any ship that has a flight deck, but if the resupply drone dies, the flight deck capable ship loses CR?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 20, 2013, 08:29:51 AM
Come on, guys, there's a link to a new thread for the ballistic ammo discussion on this very page.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dr. Death[Lexx] on March 20, 2013, 02:51:38 PM
Misc-
...Added "shield arc" indicator to refit screen


+Kudos for this, alex.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wolfyharvell on March 21, 2013, 11:36:43 AM
Is the shield arc a numerical indicator or a graphical one.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 21, 2013, 11:40:09 AM
Numerical, shows the arc in degrees.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: K-64 on March 21, 2013, 11:44:54 AM
For the shield arc, would it be possible to have it for fixed just showing on the refit, but on omni, circling round the sprite on the screen shows what it covers? Just to give a visual representation of its coverage.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 21, 2013, 11:52:31 AM
Well, you can always "run simulation" real quick to see it. There are many things that are "nice to have", but if you have all of them, you end up with something of a mess. For me, that's steering into that territory; there's already a way to see the arc, and the number in degrees is fairly easy to interpret (perhaps with a bit of practice) to boot.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Lancefighter on March 21, 2013, 06:39:15 PM
I think instead of degrees, it should be in radians. Radians are more awesome. I am however torn on if I want actual ratios of pi or just numbers though. Both have their benefits.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 21, 2013, 06:42:39 PM
Hooo boy. Grads, let's just compromise and use grads.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Pelhamds on March 22, 2013, 03:13:12 AM
I think instead of degrees, it should be in radians. Radians are more awesome. I am however torn on if I want actual ratios of pi or just numbers though. Both have their benefits.

That is a amazing argument for using radians....especially as 180 degrees = 1 Pi radian, YAY more maths to implement a unneeded measurement when degrees are used for the weapon arcs and shield arcs, if this is a really important addition then I am sure that it can be added in later, when the core is complete.

Hooo boy. Grads, let's just compromise and use grads.
YES Lets use them!  :P (for anyone without a sarcasm gland, this is sarcasm, not directed at alex though)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Spardok on March 22, 2013, 06:02:11 AM
Some really cool changes for this patch, the one I like the most is of course the battle map change :D. Though with the way objectives are being redesigned I strongly agree with posts made earlier on in the thread that they may as well just be removed all together. A thing on CR, pretty sad to see that it will affect frigates so strongly in a negative way. I read up to around page 5 and I didn't see anything about the exact formulas for what influences CR by % or flat # would love to know if these will be available early on or if we have to wait for patch release. On a last note, has using hull damage as a direct % of ship CR been looked at? I would think having half your ship destroyed would be more of a deciding factor of its combat readiness compared to being in combat for a few hours.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: RawCode on March 22, 2013, 06:06:33 AM
With radians we definely shoud use IEEE 754 floats represented in HEX...

90 degrees == 0x3f000000r

this will be awesome!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Durandal4532 on March 22, 2013, 01:00:42 PM
I wouldn't get rid of battle objectives, dynamic buffs/debuffs on the battlefield are fun!

What I might do based on what I think you're planning is to have them be like sensor packages or whatnot dropped by player ships that affect a given radius. Then, you can drop your Sensor Pod, give a +25% speed boost to ships within [distance], and that bonus can be either captured/hacked/whatevered as it is now or maybe even destroyed by the enemy? If they are just deployable objectives, I feel like you'd want to deploy them all instantly at the edge of the map. I do think there should be some option of placing them automatically. It adds such a possibility for variation to the fights to have "terrain" so to speak.

Really, anything that adds variation and player agency to the fights is a good time!

Although who knows, until we have .60 I won't know if this is already much better handled than my ideas.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Talkie Toaster on March 22, 2013, 01:53:46 PM
On a last note, has using hull damage as a direct % of ship CR been looked at? I would think having half your ship destroyed would be more of a deciding factor of its combat readiness compared to being in combat for a few hours.
I'd argue against that as it's textbook death spiral. The more damaged your ship gets, the less able you are to fight back, the more damaged you get... that's already in to an extent as losing ships degrades your fleet performance, but that's a fairly major event that really signals you to reassess the fight. Instead, gradual CR reduction with damage could lead to fights getting decided by the first salvo then dragging out as you wail on an opponent who poses increasingly little threat (or visa versa).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: lindsay lohan on March 22, 2013, 06:29:07 PM
I don't have any suggestions but this is very exciting stuff on the horizon. I don't post often but I'm impressed with the development team's work. Thanks.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: MindsEye on March 23, 2013, 07:03:09 AM
The stages of battle with choices in between is a neat idea. Kind of makes you feel more of a commander. My question is will this limit options to preventing retreats. Sometimes maybe I will not always want to engage in a chase scene and may want to invest in something else. For example tractor beams,gravity wells, or some type of performance damaging weapons or systems. Will frigates and the chase scene be the only option for the game?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2013, 11:35:17 AM
On a last note, has using hull damage as a direct % of ship CR been looked at? I would think having half your ship destroyed would be more of a deciding factor of its combat readiness compared to being in combat for a few hours.

Not directly, but engine flameouts and weapons being disabled affects CR post-battle. Not too keen on having the impact be in-battle, basically makes CR another healthbar, and we've already got one of those.

I don't have any suggestions but this is very exciting stuff on the horizon. I don't post often but I'm impressed with the development team's work. Thanks.

My first thought on seeing the post was "hey, spambot!" Was a nice surprise to find out otherwise, and thanks :)

My question is will this limit options to preventing retreats. Sometimes maybe I will not always want to engage in a chase scene and may want to invest in something else. For example tractor beams,gravity wells, or some type of performance damaging weapons or systems. Will frigates and the chase scene be the only option for the game?

If someone tries to run, you can either let them go or chase them down. At the moment there are no alternative ways to prevent a retreat, although you can choose to harass the retreating fleet instead of engaging in a full-on pursuit. That just costs them CR without costing you anything.


Also: updated the OP with more notes, mostly modding changes this time.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on March 23, 2013, 11:48:58 AM
Impressed with the additional campaign modding options. Very good work - does this pave the way for communication actually impacting the gameplay? Does this mean we can write a whole host of responses for a faction, or at least have random strings upon hailing? I'm a bit hazy right now and not that good at visualizing implications.

Hope you haven't forgotten about additive blended decorative weapons. ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 23, 2013, 11:56:31 AM
My first thought on seeing the post was "hey, spambot!" Was a nice surprise to find out otherwise, and thanks :)

Ay, my cursor was already moving towards "remove", too ;)


Control group management can now be done in the fleet deployment dialog

Yay :)

Decorative, background parallaxing planet added to campaign battle depending on where the battle takes place

Nice, do they have the absolute (small) or relative (to the ships, big) same size as in the campaign? Or something in between?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2013, 12:00:14 PM
Impressed with the additional campaign modding options. Very good work - does this pave the way for communication actually impacting the gameplay? Does this mean we can write a whole host of responses for a faction, or at least have random strings upon hailing? I'm a bit hazy right now and not that good at visualizing implications.

Right; you could do that - as full-fledged a dialog system as you care to code up. The vanilla implementation is still the same few strings from the .faction file (pending "real" dialog options), but mods are no longer tied to that if they don't want to be, and could create an entirely different dialog system.

Hope you haven't forgotten about additive blended decorative weapons. ;D

It's still on my list, along with a bunch of other things :) This update is by no means the extent of the planned changes, just what got done in the last 10 days or however long.

Decorative, background parallaxing planet added to campaign battle depending on where the battle takes place

Nice, do they have the absolute (small) or relative (to the ships, big) same size as in the campaign? Or something in between?

Somewhere in between - atm it's 1.5x the campaign planet size, up to a maximum 500 pixel radius. Also depends on how far away from the planet the engagement is - farther away means it looks smaller and the parallax is slower.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: K-64 on March 23, 2013, 12:12:53 PM
Is the sun/suns (depending whether the system is a binary one) included in that battle background stuff??
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2013, 12:14:40 PM
No. Far too bright and annoying :)

Edit: even tried showing the star as really small, but the graphics didn't scale down well, and it didn't really work. Might look better if there were mipmaps (auto-generated level-of-detail versions of the texture), but I'm not sure generating those would be a good idea in this case, since it'd double the video memory usage, and those textures are pretty large.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on March 23, 2013, 12:26:39 PM

  • ModPlugin now has the following methods:
    • void onApplicationLoad() throws Exception;
    • void onNewGame();
    • void onEnabled(boolean wasEnabledBefore);
    • void onGameLoad();
    • void beforeGameSave();
    • void afterGameSave();
  • Mods can add things to existing games (using the "onEnabled" method)


I'm very happy about this! Great work as always.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on March 23, 2013, 12:42:35 PM
Exiting mid-battle:
Finishes the battle as a victory if the enemy is in full retreat
Is there something in the UI that lets you know that the enemy is in full retreat? Sometimes there is a small ship outside of your viewing range, and it would nice to know in this situation that you could exit the battle without wasting time trying to find the ship and chase them down.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: theSONY on March 23, 2013, 12:55:15 PM
can the Decorative background be disabled durning battles ?
i got rather slow/weak PC so i have to save as many memory i can ( currently i disable V-sync ;p)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: scotty0002 on March 23, 2013, 01:46:37 PM
Once this patch comes out Starsector should gofor steam Greenlight.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on March 23, 2013, 01:53:45 PM
Once this patch comes out Starsector should gofor steam Greenlight.
Hi there! :)

Steam Greenlight is a great platform for indie games and its likely that Starsector will eventually use it (or other means to get on Steam). That time, however, has not yet come. Starsector still needs a bit to mature, I'm sure when it's ready the developers will make their move on steam. Here's what the lead developer said about the idea:

"Guys - I appreciate the thought, but I really don't feel like Starsector is ready for this kind of exposure. Please don't do anything on my behalf to make that happen - I think it could end up causing serious problems, both for the development of the game, the community, and, indeed, my mental health :) "

See also this post (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5371.msg84155#msg84155) by David, the art designer.

As a general advice: It is a good idea to use the search function (upper right corner) to see if anyone posted a similar suggestion before ;)

Thanks Gothars :)

EDIT: 1337 posts!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2013, 01:57:19 PM
Exiting mid-battle:
Finishes the battle as a victory if the enemy is in full retreat
Is there something in the UI that lets you know that the enemy is in full retreat? Sometimes there is a small ship outside of your viewing range, and it would nice to know in this situation that you could exit the battle without wasting time trying to find the ship and chase them down.

There's a message in the top left and I'd like to add an audio cue. You can also quickly check the status of that by pressing escape and seeing what message comes up.

can the Decorative background be disabled durning battles ?
i got rather slow/weak PC so i have to save as many memory i can ( currently i disable V-sync ;p)

No, but it's not difficult to mod out. It's not exactly a performance hog, though - no more so than a planet in the current missions.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Pelhamds on March 23, 2013, 01:59:16 PM
Faiter why does your name have instead of numbers for the amount of posts "leet"????
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2013, 02:00:16 PM
A little SMF easter egg, when the posts are at 1337. Back on topic, please :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Pelhamds on March 23, 2013, 02:04:56 PM
A little SMF easter egg, when the posts are at 1337. Back on topic, please :)
Thanks Alex, I thought my screen was bugging out or something else.... and I just saw the mod can add stuff to existing games function!!!! oh that is really helpful, thank you SOOOO very much for putting that in :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: theSONY on March 23, 2013, 03:04:40 PM
can the Decorative background be disabled durning battles ?
i got rather slow/weak PC so i have to save as many memory i can ( currently i disable V-sync ;p)

No, but it's not difficult to mod out. It's not exactly a performance hog, though - no more so than a planet in the current missions.

well i think thats ok
& a question: will there be any graphic/resolution  option in full game ?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2013, 03:08:23 PM
& a question: will there be any graphic/resolution  option in full game ?

Well, there's already resolution options in the launcher :)

Anything more involved... possibly, if it makes sense. Right now it's not using anything terribly fancy that could be disabled for a significant performance boost. I'll take a closer look later on, though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on March 23, 2013, 07:17:56 PM
Speaking of that, are there new graphical elements you really want to implement in the polish phase of the game? I think the game currently is a very good example of how cohesive art design and gamefeel can carry the game on its own without the need for visual fluff. Even so, small additions like these that work within the current scope of the graphics engine are very effective at aiding immersion.

One thing I personally would love to see eventually is a gradual breakup and explosion of shipwrecks that actually become destroyed rather than merely disabled, like in Escape Velocity, along with flying, red-hot debris...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BrickedKeyboard on March 23, 2013, 08:40:30 PM
I hope to see substantive improvements to the actual game in a coming update.  The character stats, the improved campaign battles, the AI improvements : all of those make the actual combat immensely better.  But right now the overall metagame is you start out, you kill stuff to gradually make you "cloud" of ships better, and you keep doing it until no one can offer a significant challenge.  

I wish your attacks actually meant something.  If I raid the pirates faction for 50 battles in a row, the faction itself ought to be affected somehow.  The basic idea I thought of is that if you attack a faction enough times

a) The faction starts sending their ships out in convoys instead of piecemeal
b)  If they become sufficiently mad, and if they have the resources, they assemble a fleet strong enough to take you out and send it after you.  
c).  If their own types of ships aren't working, they hire outside mercenary fleets that come in from out of system to chase the player fleet down.
d)  Once a faction is actually exhausted of resources, they abandon the system

To make this a little more in depth : if you've got a fleet hunting you down, if you flee to a friendly starbase you'd have the option to "lie low" (costs credits and supplies to pay for the slip rental fees and to pay for your crew salaries) or to "reconfigure IFF" that would cause your fleet to resemble a fleet from that faction unless you get too close to ships from the faction that is trying to hunt you down.



Other options might be there besides combat, like maybe a faction would try to bribe you to stop attacking them.

If you ally with a faction and annihilate all other factions from a system, you get a victory screen.  You beat Starfarer!  Would you like to continue playing?



As a programmer myself, I know that scripting this kind of stuff is not at all difficult.  It's a lot easier than some of the stuff the game already does.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BrickedKeyboard on March 23, 2013, 08:59:22 PM
One other basic improvement that ought to make the next update : the AI should take into account your victories and losses and adjust you actual "fleet point" rating accordingly.  If you beat a 150 point fleet with a 100 point fleet, it should consider your 100 point fleet to be closer to that 150 point value.  That way you won't have fleets of pirates that you have already beaten 10 times in a row still attacking you, thinking they can win.  In a similar manner, if you are near a destination or a spawn point, ships from a faction won't spawn or attempt to reach the destination if they think they will lose to your point adjust fleet. 
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: YAZF on March 23, 2013, 10:59:05 PM
Missions only: removed random post-battle capture

Sooooo.....What missions are we talking about Alex? :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Okim on March 24, 2013, 12:17:15 AM
Modding related question.

Is it possible that we can get in this update a 'NOT SALVAGEABLE' flag to allow such things as Ironclads` Rock Fly appear in campaign? I`ve suggested it multiple times and i rmember you saying that you`ll consider it.

Some players here ask me about moving the Rock Fly into campaign. I also have a new unique race which ships i don`t want to be salvageable/controllable at all.

I thing that many other mods will benefit from this too.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 24, 2013, 04:16:06 AM
I hope to see substantive improvements to the actual game in a coming update.  
I wish your attacks actually meant something.  If I raid the pirates faction for 50 battles in a row, the faction itself ought to be affected somehow.

Dynamics along those lines are definitely planned for the final game, I doubt that they will make it into the next update, though.

In general, please post suggestion in the suggestions thread, especially if they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

As a programmer myself, I know that scripting this kind of stuff is not at all difficult.  It's a lot easier than some of the stuff the game already does.

As a guy who knows nothing about programming but a tiny little bit about game design, I'd say that the difficulty here lies in getting those dynamic behaviors right. They have to mesh with player actions, actions of other factions, the environmental resources, local economy, sector economy, short and long term faction goals, overall development progress (or regress) of the sector and at the same time be intuitively assessable, offer meaningful choices and be fun.


Missions only: removed random post-battle capture
Sooooo.....What missions are we talking about Alex? :)

This goes for all missions. Those missions you access via the main menu. It would make no sense to have a meaningless capture mechanic in there that can't be found anywhere else in the game.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 24, 2013, 09:16:37 AM
Speaking of that, are there new graphical elements you really want to implement in the polish phase of the game? I think the game currently is a very good example of how cohesive art design and gamefeel can carry the game on its own without the need for visual fluff. Even so, small additions like these that work within the current scope of the graphics engine are very effective at aiding immersion.

One thing I personally would love to see eventually is a gradual breakup and explosion of shipwrecks that actually become destroyed rather than merely disabled, like in Escape Velocity, along with flying, red-hot debris...

That's something I'd love to see, too. Whether it's something I'll actually be able to get to is another question :) If there's ever time, shield graphics are something else I'd like to take a look at. David had also mentioned wanting to tweak some of the weapon and engine effects.

Overall, though, I feel good about where the graphics are at. Incremental improvements are possible across the board, but that's not something that ever stops being true.


@BrickedKeyboard: Right, what Gothars said :) I'll just add that I don't want to spend time on a more expansive system if it ends up being replaced by the "real" one down the line, anyway.

@Okim: Thanks for the reminder, added to the list and will make sure it's possible one way or another. Also sent you a PM.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: lindsay lohan on March 24, 2013, 03:05:46 PM
What's a spam bot? Some awesome Hull Mod I haven't discovered yet??
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sproginator on March 24, 2013, 04:50:02 PM
What's a spam bot? Some awesome Hull Mod I haven't discovered yet??
I'm sensing your a troll or something?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 24, 2013, 04:56:08 PM
No, that's alright. Context (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5813.msg93121#msg93121).

@lindsay lohan: A spambot is a program that automatically posts advertisement in the forum, they sometimes have names of VIPs like you do.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sproginator on March 24, 2013, 06:17:24 PM
No, that's alright. Context (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5813.msg93121#msg93121).

@lindsay lohan: A spambot is a program that automatically posts advertisement in the forum, they sometimes have names of VIPs like you do.


Ah, I couldn't find it at the first look
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on March 25, 2013, 02:24:25 AM
Just wanna check something:
Alex if player FP maxed out fleet collide with SDF how much FP worth of ships will be in battlefield?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: RawCode on March 25, 2013, 02:44:31 AM
Quote
Code
ModPlugin now has the following methods:
void onApplicationLoad() throws Exception;
void onNewGame();
void onEnabled(boolean wasEnabledBefore);
void onGameLoad();
void beforeGameSave();
void afterGameSave();

good.

now everything we need on current stage is ability to save arbitary data into savegame and read this data later.
this will help a lot with static serialization issues, removing any possible issues with mods added\removed on same savegame.
also this will allow to build failsafe anticheating by merely writing savegame data manually.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2013, 08:57:55 AM
Just wanna check something:
Alex if player FP maxed out fleet collide with SDF how much FP worth of ships will be in battlefield?

Whatever the battle size is set to by the player under gameplay settings, 200 by default.

now everything we need on current stage is ability to save arbitary data into savegame

Oddly enough, added that yesterday.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: RawCode on March 26, 2013, 02:05:10 AM
Quote
Oddly enough, added that yesterday.

You shoud patent your libastral.jar befor apple!

Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Durandal4532 on March 26, 2013, 07:10:34 AM
Awesome! Dialog!

I'm real excited, man. I can't wait to write acres of patter for the fleets!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 27, 2013, 12:27:05 PM
God, this discussion has been expanding faster than I can read it all. ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on March 27, 2013, 02:51:11 PM
Big sound update? :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: silentstormpt on March 28, 2013, 11:36:11 AM
Modding related:

Play a specific music/sound when vs a certain faction or even a specific ship, this allows some nice "End boss" music or just having faction specific music
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on April 01, 2013, 05:47:10 PM
Have you done any testing with the phase frigates since the frigate changes? Do them seem any better/worse?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 02, 2013, 05:07:18 PM
Have you done any testing with the phase frigates since the frigate changes? Do them seem any better/worse?

Not much. Did fire them up for a bit, seemed better due to heightened ability to disengage from larger ships.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sproginator on April 02, 2013, 05:12:10 PM
The addition of some better decorative weapons into vanilla would be great for new modders to peak apart, a rotating sensor dish really doesn't quite match up to escape pods, arcing lasers or venting animations
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Upgradecap on April 02, 2013, 05:41:29 PM
Can we have escape pods as decorations now? :o


Can i haz ze patch nao? :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 02, 2013, 06:13:38 PM
Mh, I guess this thread is better of locked until any news arrive.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on May 24, 2013, 04:30:25 PM
Updated.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: LazyWizard on May 24, 2013, 05:11:12 PM
  • "Second in command" option (autoresolve) no longer available to the player (possibly a temporary measure, depending on things)
...
  • Autoresolve algorithm changed, is now fully moddable
Unless you mean we can now change the algorithm behind all AI vs AI battles (which would be awesome), aren't these mutually exclusive?

Quote
Added SectorAPI.getPersistentData(), used for saving arbitrary data in the savegame
Excellent, looking forward to this addition. :) Can you reveal how it will work? What about type-safety, etc?[/list]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Psiyon on May 24, 2013, 05:13:43 PM
So, is auto-resolve completely gone now? I can see it getting very tedious when trying to destroy lower-level fleets, or perhaps that's what you're trying to discourage players from doing. If that's the case, I'd suggest increasing the amount of XP gained from battles, since the player now has to fight them all in real-time. Or maybe making the maps for huge player fleets vs really small AI fleets significantly smaller, so engagements are quicker.

Also... wait. See LazyWizard's above post.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on May 24, 2013, 05:21:55 PM
    • "Second in command" option (autoresolve) no longer available to the player (possibly a temporary measure, depending on things)
    ...
    • Autoresolve algorithm changed, is now fully moddable
    Unless you mean we can now change the algorithm behind all AI vs AI battles (which would be awesome), aren't these mutually exclusive?

    Right, you can mod the AI vs AI algorithm. You could also mod autoresolve back in so it's available for the player, too, if you were so inclined.


    Quote
    Added SectorAPI.getPersistentData(), used for saving arbitrary data in the savegame
    Awesome, can you reveal how this will work? :)[/list]

    The method is:
    Map<String, Object> getPersistentData();
    So, that's pretty much all there is to it. That map gets serialized (using XStream), so you don't need to do anything at all - in terms of serialization code - to make it work. You can implement readResolve()/writeReplace() methods if you've got any special requirements on that front, and you could flag things as transient so they aren't saved. Actually, you can do that for other stuff that winds up in the save game, too, like spawn points.

    So, is auto-resolve completely gone now? I can see it getting very tedious when trying to destroy lower-level fleets, or perhaps that's what you're trying to discourage players from doing. If that's the case, I'd suggest increasing the amount of XP gained from battles, since the player now has to fight them all in real-time. Or maybe making the maps for huge player fleets vs really small AI fleets significantly smaller, so engagements are quicker.

    Yeah. The idea is that even when you have a big fleet size advantage, you still don't want to just deploy all and steamroll, because of associated CR loss and supply costs. It's hard to envision the role autoresolve can play in that environment; you'd possibly need to tell it what you want to use, what you don't, how many ships it's ok to use, etc. At that point you might as well play it out. If you're "grinding" low-level fleets for money/XP, you wouldn't want to use it anyway. Either you'd end up with too many losses, or too many expenses.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: LazyWizard on May 24, 2013, 05:30:22 PM
    The method is:
    Map<String, Object> getPersistentData();
    So, that's pretty much all there is to it. That map gets serialized (using XStream), so you don't need to do anything at all - in terms of serialization code - to make it work. You can implement readResolve()/writeReplace() methods if you've got any special requirements on that front, and you could flag things as transient so they aren't saved. Actually, you can do that for other stuff that winds up in the save game, too, like spawn points.

    Is there no type safety, then? If it would help, I wrote a type-safe persistent data storage class using generics for use in my personal mods. The code for that is here (https://bitbucket.org/LazyWizard/aci/src/a942151cf424e2f34573d2830f3672193c40319a/org/lazywizard/aci/managers/SavedDataManager.java?at=default), if you would be interested. I believe the methods will work even when called from Janino-compiled scripts (though I haven't tested it thoroughly).


    Also - with the full understanding that the features are subject to change - would it be possible to see the current version of Starsector's API? I know you've mentioned elsewhere that you've made some significant additions to it, so it would be nice to see what all is new before making more requests.

    That's assuming that there's nothing secret in the API that you don't want to reveal yet (which is why I waited to ask until after a new patch notes appeared :)).
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on May 24, 2013, 05:48:32 PM
    Is there no type safety, then? If it would help, I wrote a type-safe persistent data storage class using generics for use in my personal mods. The code for that is here (https://bitbucket.org/LazyWizard/aci/src/a942151cf424e2f34573d2830f3672193c40319a/org/lazywizard/aci/managers/SavedDataManager.java?at=default), if you would be interested. I believe the methods will work even when called from Janino-compiled scripts (though I haven't tested it thoroughly).

    Nope, no type safety. Presumably, you'd have a really unique key, and then instanceof the result - and would use a single class with a bunch of type-safe data members in it that you're saving, rather than a bunch of different keys saved at the top level in the map.

    Given that usage model, I don't think additional code is necessary here. Ease of use over... well, I don't know what. (I'd better not go into a rant about generics here. Let's just say I think their best feature is the for (x : list) loop syntax.)

    Also - with the full understanding that the features are subject to change - would it be possible to see the current version of Starsector's API? I know you've mentioned elsewhere that you've made some significant additions to it, so it would be nice to see what all is new before making more requests.

    That's assuming that there's nothing secret in the API that you don't want to reveal yet (which is why I waited to ask until after a new patch notes appeared :)).

    Alright, here you go:
    http://fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/

    There shouldn't be any top-secret stuff. I think. Also, it does not include a lot of stuff that's been requested, and that's on my list, but that I just haven't gotten to. Also #2, it will change literally within minutes of this post.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: naufrago on May 24, 2013, 06:10:53 PM
    So, now that fighters can't be boarded, is purchasing them the only way we can acquire new ones? Any new thoughts on fighter changes you feel comfortable sharing? Just trying to get a feel for how they'll play out next patch.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on May 24, 2013, 06:46:03 PM
    Yeah, purchasing is the only way. Which is actually a bit rough given the current state of the star system, but should be less of an issue later on. I'd expect fighters to be some of the more common craft available.

    Any new thoughts on fighter changes you feel comfortable sharing? Just trying to get a feel for how they'll play out next patch.

    Not quite ready to share the details, but I've actually just recently decided on the changes to try/make, and feel very good about them :) If things work out as expected, there'll be nice tie-ins to CR all around, and fighter wings should be much more resilient in terms of surviving larger engagements.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: naufrago on May 24, 2013, 07:05:52 PM
    Sounds interesting, and I'll be looking forward to hearing more about it when it's ready =D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BillyRueben on May 24, 2013, 07:40:33 PM
    Fleet points removed from the campaign (remain as "deployment points" in combat)
    So is the leadership tree a lot more useless now?

    EDIT: Oh, and would you mind doing something like a blog post to explain this new logistic system? I'm a little confused...

    EDIT 2: And I'm kinda happy to see the supply cost increase. It actually makes them meaningful, and every hit you take in combat that much more painful.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Zaphide on May 24, 2013, 07:42:35 PM
    --- snip ---
    Added SectorAPI.getPersistentData(), used for saving arbitrary data in the savegame
    Expanded ShipVariantAPI. Combined with FleetMemberAPI.setVariant(), should be enough to allow mods to dynamically create custom variants.
    --- snip ---

    Very cool. Also, just had a look at the changes to ShipHullSpecAPI, extra very cool! Plus moddable AutoResolve!

    The UI stuff also looks really interesting.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on May 24, 2013, 08:09:00 PM
    Fleet points removed from the campaign (remain as "deployment points" in combat)
    So is the leadership tree a lot more useless now?

    Well, no. Think of logistics as fleet points, except encompassing more stuff - anything that consumes supplies, which now includes ships. For now, all the skills that used to increase fleet points increase logistics instead.

    EDIT: Oh, and would you mind doing something like a blog post to explain this new logistic system? I'm a little confused...

    Yep, thinking about doing that soon. Made sense to put out the patch notes first, though, so that there's something in them that wasn't already talked about in detail :)

    EDIT 2: And I'm kinda happy to see the supply cost increase. It actually makes them meaningful, and every hit you take in combat that much more painful.

    Yeah... that came out of doing the numbers on maintenance costs/CR loss from deployment. An Onslaught costing 50 (number totally made up, but in the right ballpark) credits worth of supplies to deploy wasn't exactly meaningful.

    The UI stuff also looks really interesting.

    :) I'm hoping it'll let mods do qualitatively more/different stuff.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thaago on May 24, 2013, 09:04:48 PM
    Type safety is overrated :P *runs as fast as I can*
    I'm very excited for the persistent data though - it should make things a lot easier than having custom spawn points to store info!

    Question about logistics: Say I'm running a fleet at near max logistics capacity, and I get in a fight. All of a sudden I have CR/repairs supply consumption added. If this pushes me over my max logistics, do those repairs just not happen? Or does that start the accident chance? (And is that why the player can adjust the repair rate, so they can control the risk levels?)


    Quote
    Goal is to make boarding a way to acquire new types ships rather than to acquire *more* ships, thus the risks associated with boarding are very high - on average, should be more than the cost to buy the same ship

    This is... interesting. Does this imply that once you have a type of ship you will be able to reproduce it? Or am I reading into things too much?

    Quote
    Sensor Array now provides a 10% damage bonus to all weapons (was: 25% range bonus)

    Ah man, now I have to choose between nav arrays and sensor arrays. ;) Do bonuses apply to frigates and fighters again now that they are CR limited, btw?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Decer304 on May 24, 2013, 09:59:41 PM
    Quote
    Goal is to make boarding a way to acquire new types ships rather than to acquire *more* ships, thus the risks associated with boarding are very high - on average, should be more than the cost to buy the same ship

    This is... interesting. Does this imply that once you have a type of ship you will be able to reproduce it? Or am I reading into things too much?

    Yeah, thats what i first thought as well. I'm wondering, because alex said that, does it mean that your chance of successful boarding action decreases after every successful boarding of the one type of ship?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: K-64 on May 24, 2013, 10:05:44 PM
    I don't think that'll happen, doesn't make sense from the fluff side of things
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on May 25, 2013, 12:13:37 AM
    Quote
    "Second in command" option (autoresolve) no longer available to the player (possibly a temporary measure, depending on things)
    +
    Quote
    Autoresolve algorithm changed, is now fully moddable

    full of win
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: mercy on May 25, 2013, 01:22:36 AM
    Can't wait til v1.0. I will check out this game then.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on May 25, 2013, 02:04:35 AM
    Oh, this is most interesting. Logistics seems to be another one of those clever mechanics, I can't wrap my head around it fully either. Looking forward to the blogpost.
    I assume you did just not mention all the old mechanics that will be gone to make room for the new ones? Like determining crew level with ship position and manually suspending repairs on a ship?



    New boarding mechanics:

    Any new thoughts on the ability to influence boarding chance during combat? Is that of of the window (again)?


    Oh, and something I missed in the notes:
    On the one hand, yeah, it'd be a pain to swap to another ship [every time your flagship has low CR]. On the other hand, having your flagship be in bad shape is a tactical consideration that may not warrant having a free pass out of. Hmm. I'll give it some thought. Might just make the first transfer command (if the flagship isn't on the field) instant and see how that feels.

    Have you tried it, will it be like this?


    Yep, thinking about doing that soon. Made sense to put out the patch notes first, though, so that there's something in them that wasn't already talked about in detail :)

    Don't know how other's see it, but I prefer hearing about big new features first in form of a blogpost. A text format explaining a mechanic, giving reasons and talking about iterations is much more exiting to read than bullet points. To try and split the excitement between those surrounding factors and the inherent "wow, new feature" (which is now in the patchnotes) is, in my opinion, detrimental to the overall fascination. I for one wouldn't mind if the patch notes were just a comprehensive list, introducing only minor new things and changes.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on May 25, 2013, 02:56:38 AM
    I think I'll sit and wait for the blog post to explain stuff because at the moment, the patch notes just look like this to me.


    Changes as of May 24, 2013
    • Reinvented Starsector.
    • That is all.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Lily on May 25, 2013, 09:44:42 AM
    Quote
    New boarding mechanics:

        Goal is to make boarding a way to acquire new types ships rather than to acquire *more* ships, thus the risks associated with boarding are very high - on average, should be more than the cost to buy the same ship
        Boarding takes place as a series of choices in the new encounter dialog
        Both marines and crew can be used to board, marines are much more effective
        At the end of the encounter, one of the losing side's ships disabled in any of the engagements has a chance to be repaired by its crew. The winning side has a number of options:
            Board it: requires picking a number of combat-ready ships for the job - only the crew capacity of these may be used for boarding), and one of:
                Hard dock: best chance of success, high chance of losing ALL ships in the boarding action to a self-destruct. As harsh as it sounds.
                Launch assault teams from a distance: low chance of success, requires more marines to succeed, high chance of enemy escaping
            Engage with nearby ships: enemy ship will either be disabled, destroyed, or manage to escape
            Let it go: enemy ship will be able to escape
        If the player loses a battle, similar mechanics for the AI kick in (though at this point it will always pick the "engage" option)
        Increased marine cost 10x
        Fighter wings can not be boarded

    Not sure what I think of all of this.  @Launch assault teams from a distance and @hard dock: Why do we have to risk our ships; it takes forever to repair a ship, and wouldn't you just be camping within range of it so that if it does repair the engines you can just disable it again?  That's what emp weapons are for, right (I always carry a few on my ships, and even then, you could just fire a few shots into the engines of the ship from any weapon and it would do the trick...)?  Secondly, don't most ships, at least cruiser size (from most Sci-fi anyways) have shuttle bays?  Wouldn't most smart captains just send the marines over in the shuttle, thus only potentially losing that?  I may just be looking to far into it, but I really don't like the idea of losing my hard earned investments, especially now with the lack of auto resolve (game will take a LOT longer to get to that stage, at this point in development).  Secondly, who's to say the crew inside is even still alive?  You lose a lot of crew when you take heavy damage; wouldn't it be possible that all the crew is dead?  Thirdly, on fighter wings; what is to prevent you from just scooping them up with your carrier and repairing them?  And from the way I'm reading this, only one ship?  How does this work, randomly?  I'm pretty mixed on a lot of this, really.  But the other patch notes are awesome (or so they seem), can't wait!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on May 25, 2013, 10:22:27 AM
    You might want to read the blogpost about the new boarding mechanic (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2013/04/08/fleet-encounter-mechanics-part-2/), scroll to the third headline. In the corresponding forum thread (link at the bottom of the blogpost) everything has been discussed in detail.

    Your idea with the shuttles is by the way the same as "launch assault team".
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on May 25, 2013, 10:28:33 AM
    First of all, just to make sure there's no confusion: the boarding stuff is what was talked about in the blog post, so it's not "new" relative to that.

    Question about logistics: Say I'm running a fleet at near max logistics capacity, and I get in a fight. All of a sudden I have CR/repairs supply consumption added. If this pushes me over my max logistics, do those repairs just not happen? Or does that start the accident chance? (And is that why the player can adjust the repair rate, so they can control the risk levels?)

    Due to this, the logistics rating wouldn't go down just due to CR loss.
    Quote
    Ships at maximum CR only consume 10% of the maintenance cost in supplies, but the full value is counted against the logistics rating

    As for repairs, they'll still happen, but your ships will gradually lose CR to the adjusted (due to lowered logistics rating) maximum. They'll then recover it after repairs are finished.

    Being at 0% logistics rating for a day or two kicks off accidents. And, right, that's why the player can adjust the repair expenditure, to control how much of a hit LR takes. You can repair quickly and lose some combat readiness, or repair slowly/not at all and retain maximum readiness.

    Quote
    Sensor Array now provides a 10% damage bonus to all weapons (was: 25% range bonus)

    Ah man, now I have to choose between nav arrays and sensor arrays. ;) Do bonuses apply to frigates and fighters again now that they are CR limited, btw?

    Not at the moment, no. Still thinking through all that.


    Quote
    Goal is to make boarding a way to acquire new types ships rather than to acquire *more* ships, thus the risks associated with boarding are very high - on average, should be more than the cost to buy the same ship

    This is... interesting. Does this imply that once you have a type of ship you will be able to reproduce it? Or am I reading into things too much?

    Yeah, thats what i first thought as well. I'm wondering, because alex said that, does it mean that your chance of successful boarding action decreases after every successful boarding of the one type of ship?

    What I meant there is that if you've got a chance to board a ship you already have and don't specifically need any more of, you would probably pass up the opportunity to board. I.E. it's not an automatic opportunity to increase the strength of your fleet that you'd mostly want to take.



    Oh, this is most interesting. Logistics seems to be another one of those clever mechanics, I can't wrap my head around it fully either. Looking forward to the blogpost.

    Hopefully not too clever. It's actually intended as a streamlining of several existing mechanics.

    I assume you did just not mention all the old mechanics that will be gone to make room for the new ones? Like determining crew level with ship position and manually suspending repairs on a ship?

    There's still a "suspend repairs" toggle for ships. Ship position does matter for crew allocation in that the highest-level crew goes to the first ship to need it, with "logistics priority" ships getting first dibs, in the order they are listed. That's actually the only thing it matters for now.


    Any new thoughts on the ability to influence boarding chance during combat? Is that of of the window (again)?

    Well, again, the boarding stuff isn't really "new" new :)


    Oh, and something I missed in the notes:
    On the one hand, yeah, it'd be a pain to swap to another ship [every time your flagship has low CR]. On the other hand, having your flagship be in bad shape is a tactical consideration that may not warrant having a free pass out of. Hmm. I'll give it some thought. Might just make the first transfer command (if the flagship isn't on the field) instant and see how that feels.

    Have you tried it, will it be like this?

    Funny, was just thinking about this. Will try it out shortly.

    Don't know how other's see it, but I prefer hearing about big new features first in form of a blogpost. A text format explaining a mechanic, giving reasons and talking about iterations is much more exiting to read than bullet points. To try and split the excitement between those surrounding factors and the inherent "wow, new feature" (which is now in the patchnotes) is, in my opinion, detrimental to the overall fascination. I for one wouldn't mind if the patch notes were just a comprehensive list, introducing only minor new things and changes.

    But, but! What about fueling ill-informed speculation?


    ... lots of stuff ...

    You might want to check out this (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5982.0) thread, and the blog post linked in its OP. Lots more detail on the boarding mechanics there.

    .... and, Gothars'ed.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Lily on May 25, 2013, 10:55:43 AM
    You might want to read the blogpost about the new boarding mechanic (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2013/04/08/fleet-encounter-mechanics-part-2/), scroll to the third headline. In the corresponding forum thread (link at the bottom of the blogpost) everything has been discussed in detail.

    Your idea with the shuttles is by the way the same as "launch assault team".

    How?  They have a huge chance to escape; there should be little to none.

    Edit: to clarify from my post
    Quote
    wouldn't you just be camping within range of it so that if it does repair the engines you can just disable it again?  That's what emp weapons are for, right (I always carry a few on my ships, and even then, you could just fire a few shots into the engines of the ship from any weapon and it would do the trick...)

    Edit2: Too easy?  How so?  isn't there still an RNG factor?  and honestly, if you invest in capturing things, it SHOULD be 'too easy'.  To take a look at how EV: Nova did it (Not saying this needs to be exactly like it or like it at all) you could buy 'Marine Platoons'.  They took up weapon / outfit space, and in return you had a higher chance to capture things.  I don't see why there couldn't be a similar mechanic; why does it have to be hard to capture something?  Tractor beams, marines, attack droids, etc; all made for this stuff, should make things significantly easier if you invest a ton into them (just like investing a ton into anything, really), rather than a trivial amount, IMO.

    Edit3: and I did read the post, I still see no reason why you can't make it at least a 50% chance capture rate (if you invest in something, as I said.  Besides, you could make them AP related if you really wanted, forcing the player to pick between combat/travel/trade skills, etc.  It's not like it's just a 'freebie', nor should it be).
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: FloW on May 25, 2013, 11:25:05 AM
    why does it have to be hard to capture something?

    I guess you want to know why it is hard gameplay-wise: Because otherwise it's a money-printing machine.
    Gameplay of a similar game, X2: You sit outside a pirate base and start capturing ships. If you know what you do, you get around 2-3 ships every 10 minutes. So if you capture 4 ships after around 15 minutes, each with 50% hull remaining, you captured enough to buy a new heavy fighter (I'd compare it to a destroyer in Starsector). And that's without your victims' cargo.

    If the current idea is implemented, you will only try to capture ships you actually want. For example, it's very hard to get the Astral. So if you want one, you should expect to lose some ships in the process.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Lily on May 25, 2013, 11:35:21 AM
    why does it have to be hard to capture something?

    I guess you want to know why it is hard gameplay-wise: Because otherwise it's a money-printing machine.
    Gameplay of a similar game, X2: You sit outside a pirate base and start capturing ships. If you know what you do, you get around 2-3 ships every 10 minutes. So if you capture 4 ships after around 15 minutes, each with 50% hull remaining, you captured enough to buy a new heavy fighter (I'd compare it to a destroyer in Starsector). And that's without your victims' cargo.

    If the current idea is implemented, you will only try to capture ships you actually want. For example, it's very hard to get the Astral. So if you want one, you should expect to lose some ships in the process.

    Yes, it may potentially be a 'money printing machine' but so are good trade routes.  Both of which require investments into (or should).  Good trade routes require knowledge of the economy, taking tabs, etc.  Capturing ships with ease shouldn't be something you should be doing without capital ships (or at least a handful of cruisers) anyways; so at that point the money you will be making should be around equal to a good trade route.  Don't forget that you've invested a lot of your resources into capturing ships either; that's huge.  And yes, capital ships should be /significantly/ harder than a frigate, per se.

    Take a look at it from EVE's standpoint:  You don't really capture disabled ships (to my limited knowledge; I didn't really play all too much) but you can salvage a LOT of things from them that are just as valuable if not 10x more valuable than the ship itself.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Talkie Toaster on May 25, 2013, 12:45:51 PM
    Now FP are gone, is there another limiting factor on high-tech ships? They generally have lower HP (so lower repair costs) and lower crew counts than the low-tech ones so that'd suggest that they're cheaper to keep and run than the low-tech ones. Is that how it is and the limiting factor for them in the campaign proper is going to be the difficulty acquiring them, or is there a modifier for them that alters supply costs, or do they have base upkeeps separate from crew costs, or are they all subject to CR degradation in-combat like frigates or is it something else entirely?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: phyrex on May 25, 2013, 12:55:37 PM
    Now FP are gone, is there another limiting factor on high-tech ships? They generally have lower HP (so lower repair costs) and lower crew counts than the low-tech ones so that'd suggest that they're cheaper to keep and run than the low-tech ones. Is that how it is and the limiting factor for them in the campaign proper is going to be the difficulty acquiring them, or is there a modifier for them that alters supply costs, or do they have base upkeeps separate from crew costs, or are they all subject to CR degradation in-combat like frigates or is it something else entirely?

    the fleet point mechanics has been replaced by the deployment points mechanics.
    so now instead of being limited on how many ship you can cruise the sector with, you're limited on how many ship you can send into combat instead while being able to have a bigger fleet.
    thats kinda so you can have "replacement ships" to send fighting as now repair time and logistical problems become more prominent in the gameplay
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on May 25, 2013, 01:14:04 PM
    @Lily:
    The question here is what role boarding should play in the game. I think you're working with an assumption that it's supposed to be a viable way to acquire wealth in the long-term. That's actually the opposite of what this was designed in mind with.

    There's also a question of feel. Should combat against military-grade opponents be a direct, reliable means of growing your fleet?

    Now FP are gone, is there another limiting factor on high-tech ships? They generally have lower HP (so lower repair costs) and lower crew counts than the low-tech ones so that'd suggest that they're cheaper to keep and run than the low-tech ones. Is that how it is and the limiting factor for them in the campaign proper is going to be the difficulty acquiring them, or is there a modifier for them that alters supply costs, or do they have base upkeeps separate from crew costs, or are they all subject to CR degradation in-combat like frigates or is it something else entirely?

    Ships now have maintenance costs, in supplies per day. Repair costs are also not tied to HP, so high tech ships are actually more expensive on both counts. They also tend to cost considerably more CR per deployment.

    so now instead of being limited on how many ship you can cruise the sector with, you're limited on how many ship you can send into combat instead while being able to have a bigger fleet.

    Not exactly true, due to aforementioned maintenance costs, though you have other means to work around them and there's more flexibility in going over. More on that in a blog post that I'm currently writing :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Talkie Toaster on May 25, 2013, 01:48:16 PM
    Now FP are gone, is there another limiting factor on high-tech ships? They generally have lower HP (so lower repair costs) and lower crew counts than the low-tech ones so that'd suggest that they're cheaper to keep and run than the low-tech ones. Is that how it is and the limiting factor for them in the campaign proper is going to be the difficulty acquiring them, or is there a modifier for them that alters supply costs, or do they have base upkeeps separate from crew costs, or are they all subject to CR degradation in-combat like frigates or is it something else entirely?
    Ships now have maintenance costs, in supplies per day. Repair costs are also not tied to HP, so high tech ships are actually more expensive on both counts. They also tend to cost considerably more CR per deployment.

    Not exactly true, due to aforementioned maintenance costs, though you have other means to work around them and there's more flexibility in going over. More on that in a blog post that I'm currently writing :)
    Ah, thanks. Looking forwards to the blog post!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on May 25, 2013, 02:55:56 PM
    (Blog post (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2013/05/25/logistics-fleet-management/) is up.)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Jonlissla on May 26, 2013, 03:28:14 AM
    • Supplies cost increased 20x
    • Increased marine cost 10x

    Is the supply consumption as usual or has it been changed?

    And marines being that expensive breaks immersion a bit. 7 soldiers cost almost more than 4 fighters that are capable of flying in space, not to mention are armed with heavy weapons. Would be better if you renamed them to Marine Squad or something, otherwise you get the impression they're individual soldiers.

    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on May 26, 2013, 09:52:30 AM
    Is the supply consumption as usual or has it been changed?

    Changed, since there was no ship maintenance before. Repair costs are also different (explicitly set per-ship), though not necessarily higher.

    And marines being that expensive breaks immersion a bit. 7 soldiers cost almost more than 4 fighters that are capable of flying in space, not to mention are armed with heavy weapons. Would be better if you renamed them to Marine Squad or something, otherwise you get the impression they're individual soldiers.

    I can easily see powered armor being that expensive. It may be smaller than a fighter, but it's not unreasonable that it'd be much more complex/expensive. I also wouldn't put too much stock in the current ship/fighter prices, they're a bit off the wall.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Sproginator on May 26, 2013, 10:14:09 AM
    All I really want right now is dynamic commodities, please implement this by next version
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flashydragon on May 26, 2013, 10:57:06 AM
    All I really want right now is dynamic commodities, please implement this by next version
    That would be cool, but I'd like to see more solar system features, dynamic faction status, and more gameplay features!

    I know the goal is to have a galaxy/universe to conquer, but I kind of like the idea of a single system game, a kind of all-your-eggs-in-one-basket style game!

    Outposts and officers too!! :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on May 26, 2013, 12:52:08 PM
    Is the supply consumption as usual or has it been changed?

    Changed, since there was no ship maintenance before. Repair costs are also different (explicitly set per-ship), though not necessarily higher.

    And marines being that expensive breaks immersion a bit. 7 soldiers cost almost more than 4 fighters that are capable of flying in space, not to mention are armed with heavy weapons. Would be better if you renamed them to Marine Squad or something, otherwise you get the impression they're individual soldiers.

    I can easily see powered armor being that expensive. It may be smaller than a fighter, but it's not unreasonable that it'd be much more complex/expensive. I also wouldn't put too much stock in the current ship/fighter prices, they're a bit off the wall.

    Then will ship prices change, too? Or are marines gonna be harder to maintain than space-worthy Talons?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xanderh on May 27, 2013, 06:20:23 AM
    Take a look at it from EVE's standpoint:  You don't really capture disabled ships (to my limited knowledge; I didn't really play all too much) but you can salvage a LOT of things from them that are just as valuable if not 10x more valuable than the ship itself.

    Nope. That's wrong. The salvage will never be worth more than the ship itself, because people would buy the ships just to blow them up and salvage, increasing the price of the ship and decreasing the price of the salvage. In fact, the ratio is closer to the opposite; with the ship being worth about 10x that of the salvage.
    And you couldn't capture disabled ships, because they were destroyed. You could, however, force your enemy to eject from their ship and capture it that way.

    Anyway, on topic, the changes look interesting. I'll have to take a look at the blog post, but it does look interesting.
    It's also nice to get an update on the progress, it's been a while since the last one.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: heskey30 on May 27, 2013, 09:27:49 AM
    I think the progression speed is good right now for the amount of content, but you reduced income (capturing ships isn't a viable income source) and increased expenses (supplies cost more) in this patch - do you have anything to balance the slower progression? It it's in the patch notes, sorry, but I don't remember seeing anything.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flashydragon on May 27, 2013, 06:46:07 PM
    I think the progression speed is good right now for the amount of content, but you reduced income (capturing ships isn't a viable income source) and increased expenses (supplies cost more) in this patch - do you have anything to balance the slower progression? It it's in the patch notes, sorry, but I don't remember seeing anything.

    I was wondering about this as well...if the game no longer has any auto-battle, non-trade ship capturing, and x20 resource costs...

    how do we actually get anywhere within the campaign? within 3 hours worth of gaming? mods are the only thing i can think of... ???
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on May 27, 2013, 08:17:50 PM
    If anything, in the currently-released version 1) the progression is too fast and 2) the early stages of it are more fun. Something where you're just barely getting by and advancing is more difficult wouldn't be a bad thing.

    In any event, I'm not too concerned about the speed of the progression at this point. Any real effort put into that now is mostly wasted, though I'll certainly take a good look at it before making the release.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ArkAngel on May 28, 2013, 01:52:05 PM
    I have 2 concerns with the update.
     One is abusing the new boarding mechanic. What You could do is simply wear down a fleet to the point were its capitol is left and then disengage, or let them run. The post said one ships will always be able to be boarded. So why not jut rengagage with the solo capitol ship and disables it and then board it?

    My other concern was is adding a damage buff really a good trade off for the range buff?(this may be me just missin my former builds which used the range buff. But it still feels like and awkward trade off.)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: icepick37 on May 28, 2013, 03:23:22 PM
    I'm pretty sure there's only a chance to board, though the chance is only ever for one ship.

    So you aren't guaranteed a boarding, though you are guaranteed there will be a maximum of one.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on May 28, 2013, 04:01:15 PM
    Yeah, boarding is not guaranteed, but while the overall boarding chance is not increased by isolating your target ship, the chance to board that specific ship in case of boarding is brought to 100%.
    From what I understand this part of the patch notes has not been updated since the boarding mechanic was fist discussed after the blogpost, though. It might have changed quite a bit in the meantime (or rather is open for future change), including the only one ship rule.


    By the way, it's a capital ship (which just means grand ship), the capitol is a building in Washington, D.C. and has nothing to do with ships. I see that mistake made quite a lot.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flashydragon on May 28, 2013, 04:57:23 PM
    If anything, in the currently-released version 1) the progression is too fast and 2) the early stages of it are more fun. Something where you're just barely getting by and advancing is more difficult wouldn't be a bad thing.

    In any event, I'm not too concerned about the speed of the progression at this point. Any real effort put into that now is mostly wasted, though I'll certainly take a good look at it before making the release.

    I understand. a clever End Game would be a sweet way to round out the experience, as it stands now, once you have the biggest/baddest fleet, you just kind of sit on your hands... :'(

    it would be nice if the game were playable before release, however! there are mechanics and methods that can force/coerce you to be on the run, without being 1 wrong click away from instagib...especially if the game will be transitioning to HC mode as standard.

    I know I'm new here, and i really don't have any perch to be making demands (or even expect to be listened to). But I care about this game, it's a labor of love, and I want to see it succeed! So if I sound *** or foolish at any point, please understand my heart. ::)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: LazyWizard on May 28, 2013, 05:03:09 PM
    My other concern was is adding a damage buff really a good trade off for the range buff?(this may be me just missin my former builds which used the range buff. But it still feels like and awkward trade off.)

    A damage bonus does seem a bit odd for a sensor array. I think a boost to hit strength (target armor reduction) and/or auto-aim accuracy might fit better. A bonus to auto-aim would also make it a more desirable target for green fleets.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: scotty0002 on May 28, 2013, 05:16:33 PM
    Is there any way we can find out the realese date of this update
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: FloW on May 28, 2013, 10:08:43 PM
    Is there any way we can find out the realese date of this update

    How much of the coding is already done?

    For the whole update? Can't really estimate, though it's definitely winding down. For the stuff in the blog post, it's all functional, but the UI is very much WIP. You may have noticed a lack of screenshots; that's why.

    From the other thread (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6225.0).

    Alex doesn't like deadlines, and I can't really blame him. This way we get updates when they are actually finished.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alysa on May 29, 2013, 01:48:05 AM
    Quote
    in the currently-released version 1) the progression is too fast and 2) the early stages of it are more fun.

    I completely agree ! however, the current changes seem harsh without economy, which will allow new ways to play. so is it reasonnable to release this patch before economy is put in the game ?

    Quote
    the capitol is a building in Washington, D.C

    Not even close, the Capitol is the central plaza of Toulouse.

    Btw, this is my first post, so as the rest of us I'll say that this game is incredibly awesome, even as an alpha game, and I play it with much more avidity than many AAA games that just wait in my computer for me to have a glimpse at them. With so much fun in fights, it promises to be one of the best space games ever (hence, one of the best games ever !). Terrific work, hope this will go on well.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ValkyriaL on May 29, 2013, 06:03:27 AM
    Quote
    it promises to be one of the best space games ever (hence, one of the best games ever !). Terrific work, hope this will go on well.

    True, this game has the potential to become huge, if we are lucky we might even see Starsector II with ships in 3D. ;D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flashydragon on May 29, 2013, 03:10:34 PM
    Quote
    it promises to be one of the best space games ever (hence, one of the best games ever !). Terrific work, hope this will go on well.

    True, this game has the potential to become huge, if we are lucky we might even see Starsector II with ships in 3D. ;D

    I can hear Alex sighing at his computer screen right now... ::)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: DJ Die on May 30, 2013, 02:34:44 AM
    Well I for one am not sure i like the new boarding mechanics.....
    if you think boarding ships was too an easy way of gaining money just make captured ships sell for much less...
    similar to Age of Pirates 2....nations would pay only limited amount of money for ships captured from other nations unless you have privateer patent...unless the captured ship was originally pirate that is...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flanker37t on May 30, 2013, 08:44:04 AM
    Well I for one am not sure i like the new boarding mechanics.

    I strongly disagree. First, we need to see the implementation ourselves. And I remember X^3:TC where boarding suddenly became almost impossible without investing millions of credits and several days IRL. It was incredibly fun, I planned an operation "capture some random Xenon destroyer" for a week, and lost about three hundred times the value of abovementioned destroyer, but I got it! And I flew it proudly since.

    Speaking of Starsector, I've recently captured a battlecruiser and two destroyers in one battle. Cool, but REALLY game-breaking. Once upon a time I even captured a Conquest with a frigate early in the game. It just surrendered. No challenge at all.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on May 30, 2013, 09:07:39 AM
    The Conquest was likely undermanned, and as such the Conquest's "fleet" had "no combat-ready ships". Which typically means immediate surrender or sabotage of the undermanned ship(s).

    Well I for one am not sure i like the new boarding mechanics.
    And I remember X^3:TC where boarding suddenly became almost impossible without investing millions of credits and several days IRL. It was incredibly fun, I planned an operation "capture some random Xenon destroyer" for a week, and lost about three hundred times the value of abovementioned destroyer, but I got it! And I flew it proudly since.

    Supposedly, there is a tactic to capping ships in X3 that involves displaying overwhelming firepower. Basically, kill the ship so fast that the pilot panics and bails. That's the general idea, with out taking the morale of the pilot into account. I find it odd how you can even capture Xenon ships. Aren't they AI? What, do they just have a NOPE.exe tucked away in their systems that makes them shutdown? What if it woke up again? Suddenly, crazed Xenon ship bent on destroying everything in the middle of your precious supply trains.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: FloW on May 30, 2013, 10:57:58 AM
    The Conquest was likely undermanned, and as such the Conquest's "fleet" had "no combat-ready ships". Which typically means immediate surrender or sabotage of the undermanned ship(s).

    Which will be impossible with the next update

    Well I for one am not sure i like the new boarding mechanics.
    And I remember X^3:TC where boarding suddenly became almost impossible without investing millions of credits and several days IRL. It was incredibly fun, I planned an operation "capture some random Xenon destroyer" for a week, and lost about three hundred times the value of abovementioned destroyer, but I got it! And I flew it proudly since.

    Supposedly, there is a tactic to capping ships in X3 that involves displaying overwhelming firepower. Basically, kill the ship so fast that the pilot panics and bails. That's the general idea, with out taking the morale of the pilot into account. I find it odd how you can even capture Xenon ships. Aren't they AI? What, do they just have a NOPE.exe tucked away in their systems that makes them shutdown? What if it woke up again? Suddenly, crazed Xenon ship bent on destroying everything in the middle of your precious supply trains.

    That's one way of capping ships in X3, X2 and even X-Tension. The other way involves punching through their shields (or at least, most of them) and then carefully poking them.
    There are several changes from X3 to X3:TC. One is capturing capital ships, because you have to train up marines (which takes ages). Did I also mention that you need over 20 for most Xenon ships? And I think that each one of their ships is actually piloted by a robot. If you check the ship's status, it will mention that the pilot is "Unknown Object". This object then bails, or gets killed by marines, if you attack a capship. The AI core of the Xenon ship is then overwritten, and a firewall is installed.

    OT: The changes in boarding were necessary, it became far too easy to cap and start printing money.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Trylobot on May 30, 2013, 12:57:22 PM
    Quote
    OT: The changes in boarding were necessary, it became far too easy to cap and start printing money.

    Agree.


    I did that, in fact. And although it was rather thrilling the first couple times, after a while I felt guilty for being so amazing. The real jackpot used to be when you were able to find an AI fleet limping around ... you could make his fleet surrender, and assimilate all of the ships. Shipgasm.

    But yes it needed to be nerfed a lot.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Shoat on May 30, 2013, 02:37:19 PM
    My other concern was is adding a damage buff really a good trade off for the range buff?(this may be me just missin my former builds which used the range buff. But it still feels like and awkward trade off.)

    It's a simple case of range being the by far most powerful stat for weapons and that that beacon was simply way too strong and was now nerfed to "only" provide a damage buff (which is still good, but not end-all like the range buff was).

    Also, some custom weapons from mods behaved really awkward when their range was artifically extended beyond what the modder had intended, so that may also have influenced this decision.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: joey4track on May 30, 2013, 06:32:10 PM
    I have to agree that it would be nice to have economy and fuel use before any other features.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flashydragon on May 31, 2013, 12:34:36 AM
    And although it was rather thrilling the first couple times, after a while I felt guilty for being so amazing. The real jackpot used to be when you were able to find an AI fleet limping around ... you could make his fleet surrender, and assimilate all of the ships. Shipgasm.

    wait wait wait...that wasn't intended? :'( i uhh...i thought it was a way of getting a leg-up if you were doing poorly, just use that quick little shuttle to catch those dumb buffalo that weren't ready for combat and, presto, back in the game!

    So...how exactly are we supposed to approach winning the campaign, when almost every reliable way of making credits is less effective, and supplies cost an arm and a leg? ???

    Spoiler
    MODS
    [close]
    ...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on May 31, 2013, 02:15:34 AM
    So, is auto-resolve completely gone now?
    Yeah.

    So, what happens if I hit escape during a battle? Is there a way to shut down the game during a fight?



    It's a simple case of range being the by far most powerful stat for weapons and that that beacon was simply way too strong and was now nerfed to "only" provide a damage buff (which is still good, but not end-all like the range buff was).

    I wouldn't say that range is more powerful than damage. It can be, if it makes the difference between outranging the opponent or not. But if the difference was dramatic before, a percentage bonus often has no influence whatsoever. A damage bonus is more universal useful.

    So...how exactly are we supposed to approach winning the campaign, when almost every reliable way of making credits is less effective, and supplies cost an arm and a leg? ???

    Do you find it exceedingly difficult at the moment? Maybe while you have only your starting ship, but once you grow it is all smooth sailing. Usually you have much more money than you can spend within a few hours. I had much more fun with self-imposed limitations like "don't buy anything at stations".
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thaago on May 31, 2013, 09:01:12 AM
    My other concern was is adding a damage buff really a good trade off for the range buff?(this may be me just missin my former builds which used the range buff. But it still feels like and awkward trade off.)

    It's a simple case of range being the by far most powerful stat for weapons and that that beacon was simply way too strong and was now nerfed to "only" provide a damage buff (which is still good, but not end-all like the range buff was).

    Also, some custom weapons from mods behaved really awkward when their range was artifically extended beyond what the modder had intended, so that may also have influenced this decision.

    Huh. You know, I'm of the completely opposite perspective: I saw the range bonus as nice, but the speed bonus to be about 10 times more useful. It doesn't matter if the opponent has you outranged if you can hop in and out at will? Different playstyles I guess.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flashydragon on May 31, 2013, 10:09:38 AM
    So, is auto-resolve completely gone now?
    Yeah.

    So, what happens if I hit escape during a battle? Is there a way to shut down the game during a fight?



    It's a simple case of range being the by far most powerful stat for weapons and that that beacon was simply way too strong and was now nerfed to "only" provide a damage buff (which is still good, but not end-all like the range buff was).

    I wouldn't say that range is more powerful than damage. It can be, if it makes the difference between outranging the opponent or not. But if the difference was dramatic before, a percentage bonus often has no influence whatsoever. A damage bonus is more universal useful.

    So...how exactly are we supposed to approach winning the campaign, when almost every reliable way of making credits is less effective, and supplies cost an arm and a leg? ???

    Do you find it exceedingly difficult at the moment? Maybe while you have only your starting ship, but once you grow it is all smooth sailing. Usually you have much more money than you can spend within a few hours. I had much more fun with self-imposed limitations like "don't buy anything at stations".

    Well...at the risk of sounding like I'm bad at the game, yes. one wrong move, and it's SHUTTLE TIME BOYS. The game is basically unwinnable for me at that point, which is why I reload my save...buuuut if it's HC mode, then I basically have to start another game. oh, and to clear the air, I like the second-in-command option, I thought it was a great time-saver, but I'm much better than the computer, and I always play through important fights, because the computer would lose too much of my fleet and resources...

    I like the large, tactical fleet battles much more than the small, dancing skirmishes of the early game...and it sounds like that's something I'll never see in .6  :'(.

    Really, even after all this talk, it's possible that .6 could be balanced perfectly, and I'm just whinning uselessly. I just like winning at things I do, is that so bad? :P

    Don't buy anything from stations... WTF :o
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on May 31, 2013, 10:49:41 AM
    So, is auto-resolve completely gone now?
    Yeah.

    So, what happens if I hit escape during a battle? Is there a way to shut down the game during a fight?

    In hardcore mode, it asks you if you want to exit the game. In normal mode, it asks if you want to go back to the main menu. (The logic there is that in hardcore mode, you could "cheat" by exiting out from a battle only to reload the save, but you can already do that by killing the game from task manager. So, the game isn't going to try to fight that somehow, but will just rather let you exit mid-battle, since you may want to do that for other RL reasons - but in a way that discourages the aforementioned cheating.)


    As far as the Sensor Array change: my feeling is that with a 25% range boost (50% for two!) it became a qualitative change in some cases. +10/20% damage is just universally good, but it's not going to change the way you play a ship, which I don't feel objectives should do.

    There's an argument to be made here that Nav Buoys change how some capital ships play, but to that I say, one step at a time :)


    Really, even after all this talk, it's possible that .6 could be balanced perfectly, and I'm just whinning uselessly. I just like winning at things I do, is that so bad? :P

    It's perfectly normal! Possibly also bad. Ahem.

    I'm not sure I need to go into how exploitable the pre-0.6a boarding mechanics are again. About supplies costing 20x more, though: I don't think that's nearly as drastic as it sounds, just because the current cost is so laughably small.

    A bit of perspective - I seriously doubt 0.6a is going to be perfectly balanced, and am not even going to aim for that until all the core features are in :)

    If some releases end up suffering a bit because features need to lean on other features that don't exist yet in order to work well, well... that's really just the breaks. As usual, I'll try to keep things playable and do what I can, but that only works to a point.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Shield on May 31, 2013, 02:22:06 PM
    Forget all the whining and imbalances, I just want to test out .6 already.

    Negro needs his spaceship fix.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on May 31, 2013, 02:56:00 PM
    Negro needs his spaceship fix.

    Inb4someonetakesgreatoffense.
    I didn't, it made me giggle a little.


    Not sure if I like the idea of having no auto-resolve. I don't like playing a big deathball fleet, they're slow and a logistical nightmare which is only going to become much more apparent in 0.6. Which means that I have 2-3 pirate frigates trying to engage a capital ship that could faceroll them with the helmsman asleep at the wheel. Will I really have to play "military checkpoints" and be stopped every few seconds by a swarm of angry 2-Hound pirate fleets and have to sit through every one? My ship actually loses most engagements involving more than a couple frigates (say, a Buffalo or three, or similar pirate destroyer) when autopiloted, because the AI's shield raising habits are something easily exploited. I never raise shields unless it's an angry red Reaper or pilum spam, or the fire of a mod weapon like the Hadron Accelerator of the IFed. The AI raises shields if guns are so much as pointed in their direction. This means I can pewpew for much longer as all my flux venting is dedicated to weaponry and is not constantly siphoned off by shields, therefore causing a ship's flux to max out faster, more so if shields are inefficient and take a lot of damage anyway. The Ascendancy mod taught me that. Ceni Six ships have shields, yet stock, the Ceni Six shields are almost a liability as many weapons are kinetic and as such, overload CSix shields blindingly fast. Many other ships simply lacked shields meaning you had to go man-mode and get to brawling. Many of my fits reflect this brawling now and are all built assuming shields are a luxury. High flux/s AND AI with shields up means 0 to overload in 10 seconds flat, thus I never let the AI pilot unless it's a pointlessly small fight. Like those 2-3 frigate fleets, where even the AI's cautious tendencies shouldn't affect the outcome. Now I'll need to practically babysit each fight, or just turn autopilot on and tab out, only to discover that a lucky AM Blaster shot overloaded the shields and as such, I'm now in a Hound instead of my stompy Conquest, Paragon or whatever mod faction's flagship I'm flying.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on May 31, 2013, 03:14:16 PM
    Negro needs his spaceship fix.

    Don't go there.


    @Silver Silence: All I can say is wait and see how it turns out. The scenarios you describe are implausible. I.E. a pair of Hounds wouldn't choose to engage a capital ship, and if you somehow managed to force the fight, you'd probably want to use a lighter ship instead of deploying a battleship/battlecruiser and taking the CR hit for little benefit.

    Using autopilot doesn't play into this, if you're trying to finish a fight quickly I doubt you'd be using that in the first place.

    Also, seriously - paragraphs, please :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on May 31, 2013, 04:14:15 PM
    Negro needs his spaceship fix.

    Don't go there.

    Oh, he wasn't going anywhere. Just a turn of phrase.

    @Silver Silence: All I can say is wait and see how it turns out. The scenarios you describe are implausible. I.E. a pair of Hounds wouldn't choose to engage a capital ship, and if you somehow managed to force the fight, you'd probably want to use a lighter ship instead of deploying a battleship/battlecruiser and taking the CR hit for little benefit.

    Using autopilot doesn't play into this, if you're trying to finish a fight quickly I doubt you'd be using that in the first place.
    Well, a Lasher, 1-2 Hounds and maybe a couple Talon or Piranha wings. FP-wise, the same weight as something like a Conquest, thus why I get the engagement. In terms of combat proficiency, not in remotely the same leagues.
    Autopilot usually doesn't come into play, Autoresolve does it for me. At worst, I get oddly damaged armour. (Perfect chunks of armour missing, instead of an area being smashed as would happen in combat)
    Also, seriously - paragraphs, please :)
    Sorry, I couldn't figure out where to put a break because it was all on the same topic, aside from the Ascendancy storytime.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Talkie Toaster on May 31, 2013, 04:20:28 PM
    Huh. You know, I'm of the completely opposite perspective: I saw the range bonus as nice, but the speed bonus to be about 10 times more useful. It doesn't matter if the opponent has you outranged if you can hop in and out at will? Different playstyles I guess.
    That only works to an extent, though- a +25 might make your cruiser able to control engagement with their cruisers, but it won't help you against destroyers or frigates. It also won't help destroyers against fighter craft or missiles, whereas a 25% range boost to all PD suddenly makes inter-fleet PD coverage more reliable. More so than a flat +10% damage boost, because with short-range PD you're effectively keeping 1.1 guns trained on the fighter wing, rather than 3 (yours, and the PD from the ships either side of you).

    Plus, dancing in and out of range is negated if your opponent takes sensors instead. You have more control over when encounters occur (to an extent- objectives restrict it), but you're guaranteed to concede the first hit and have a longer, more vulnerable retreat, and the enemy can fit more ships into the fight than you can. It's especially true if they've got beam-based ships about, ITU+Optics*Sensors adds ~3-400 range. If you retreat and they chase, your +25 speed advantage thanks to the nav buoy still leaves you taking 6-8 extra seconds of fire before you disengage, during which you can't retaliate (assuming both ships have the same base speed).
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flashydragon on June 01, 2013, 12:20:11 PM
    Negro needs his spaceship fix.

    YEAHYEAHYEAHYEAHYEA- ;D oh, it's not that kind of forum, is it...

    Well 5x20 is 100. now that I look at it, I guess it's not that steep...unless you actually are trying to field a large fleet, and then unless you do VERY well in combat (because I doubt the supply drop rates will stay the same), then you're going to be eating a lot more maintenance and repair costs :-\. Too much? can't tell, will definitely try it out when .6 is out.

    And autopilot is for when I'm feeling lazy, or I'm playing that super cool fairy-mod. auto-RESOLVE however, is a different animal, and I really, really will miss it. it probably is the reason I get anywhere in this game ATM, because fights take ~2 seconds, instead of 120-180. Yes, the computer plays more poorly than I would, but it's quantity over quality after a certain point...(read: first onslaught acquired).
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on June 01, 2013, 01:03:10 PM
    At the point you acquire your first capital of almost any kind, you can generally let the AI faceroll small fleets with almost any set up.

    As for the Sensor Arrays, I think I still prefer the ranged bonuses to damage. Having two unskilled ships, the one with the longer range will typically win against the other because the former can start putting pressure on the other ship first. If you're just maneuvering into range and their first wave of Hellbores and Gauss Cannons and the like has already pushed you to 20-40% your max flux, that's a whole lot less time you get to spend firing on them.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: phyrex on June 01, 2013, 01:07:28 PM
    At the point you acquire your first capital of almost any kind, you can generally let the AI faceroll small fleets with almost any set up.

    As for the Sensor Arrays, I think I still prefer the ranged bonuses to damage. Having two unskilled ships, the one with the longer range will typically win against the other because the former can start putting pressure on the other ship first. If you're just maneuvering into range and their first wave of Hellbores and Gauss Cannons and the like has already pushed you to 20-40% your max flux, that's a whole lot less time you get to spend firing on them.

    i think thats exactly to avoid this kind of situation that he changed it.
    now back again, if you want a range advantage, you gotta gear for it first
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on June 01, 2013, 01:25:39 PM
    I do gear for it. Heavy Maulers, Gauss Cannons, HVDs, Railguns, HILS, Tach Lances, all weapons typically mounted on my ships. Though right now, in the Fairy mod, I'm just using Guardian PD with 750 range, but a terrifying 2000 DPS and 600 maintained DPS after the charges are spent. And I have 3 of them. Hounds get annihilated so fast that their wrecks often smash into me at full speed because they died without a chance to maneuver. I thought the Autopulses with 1200 range in this mod were cool, HA. -HA-.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flashydragon on June 01, 2013, 02:28:08 PM
    I do gear for it. Heavy Maulers, Gauss Cannons, HVDs, Railguns, HILS, Tach Lances, all weapons typically mounted on my ships. Though right now, in the Fairy mod, I'm just using Guardian PD with 750 range, but a terrifying 2000 DPS and 600 maintained DPS after the charges are spent. And I have 3 of them. Hounds get annihilated so fast that their wrecks often smash into me at full speed because they died without a chance to maneuver. I thought the Autopulses with 1200 range in this mod were cool, HA. -HA-.

    This^ 8)

    Quick question...what are capital ships supposed to be used for, if not death-star-style extermination campaigns, then? Is this the first step in removing the ship type? Where is the line between "this is too strong" and "this is how you use the kit"? :-\

    I'm still not convinced that removing auto-resolve is a good idea. It just sounds like a move to dramatically lengthen my already late late late night gaming sessions  :'(
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ValkyriaL on June 01, 2013, 05:24:31 PM
    I hate the fact that auto resolve is removed so much that i'm simply just not going to update... ever... if there is a logical reason behind removing it, i'd sure as hell would like to hear it.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on June 01, 2013, 05:55:29 PM
    I hate the fact that auto resolve is removed so much that i'm simply just not going to update... ever... if there is a logical reason behind removing it, i'd sure as hell would like to hear it.

    Here:

    The idea is that even when you have a big fleet size advantage, you still don't want to just deploy all and steamroll, because of associated CR loss and supply costs. It's hard to envision the role autoresolve can play in that environment; you'd possibly need to tell it what you want to use, what you don't, how many ships it's ok to use, etc. At that point you might as well play it out. If you're "grinding" low-level fleets for money/XP, you wouldn't want to use it anyway. Either you'd end up with too many losses, or too many expenses.

    You exaggerate Valky, but I'm not too sure either I like the complete removal of autoresolve. It has indeed no in-game use, but sometimes a player is just not in the mood to switch from the campaign to the combat layer. That will probably be more true if there are important things to plan and think about for campaign progress. I see no reason to not allow the option of autoresolving at high CR cost.

    Don't think it will matter all that much though, it's not like the mechanic itself could provide you with any fun.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on June 01, 2013, 07:48:15 PM
    Right; it's more a question of me not seeing how it fits into things. I can see the "I can't be bothered right now" use case when there's other campaign stuff it's distracting you from (and when there's that campaign stuff to be distracted from in the first place.) I'd like to see how CR shakes out first, though, and if that really ever comes up with the new battle mechanics.

    (Side note: I really dislike the idea of autoresolve being better than fighting it out in any circumstances.)

    Well, a Lasher, 1-2 Hounds and maybe a couple Talon or Piranha wings. FP-wise, the same weight as something like a Conquest, thus why I get the engagement. In terms of combat proficiency, not in remotely the same leagues.

    This is true, but that's also the kind of situation you don't want to use autoresolve in because it's likely going to produce bad results. It can't not, it's basically impossible to tell apart situations where one side has overwhelming superiority due to how the fleets match up tactically. Oh, you could catch some cases, but not all, or even most. There's just too much customization possible.

    (It's also not an obviously bad engagement for the other side to take, harassing your ship into a CR loss and an eventual defeat could be a viable option.)


    So... I get it, autoresolve sounds like a good thing to have. But when would you really use it? When it has a chance of totally messing up the outcome, because the battle looks close on paper? Or when the enemy is so outgunned that they're trying to run away, and you're hitting "autoresolve" because it has a better chance to nab those pesky Hounds (and you already don't have to fight it out and can just let them go)? "Save/reload until autoresolve wins" is not a use case I want to design for, and that's about the only thing that comes to mind.

    Hmm. Another case involves the player figuring out how autoresolve works and getting a fleet together that does will with it. I'm not keen on that as a core game mechanic, either.

    It seems to me that it's mostly useful now either in the save/load case, or in the "over-aggressive weak fleets" one. The second should be addressed in the new release, they're much better about gauging their chances.

    That said, I definitely want to hear what you guys think. Are there cases where you'd want to use it that I didn't cover in the above?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: naufrago on June 01, 2013, 08:15:32 PM
    Well, aside from farming exp, credits, and loot...

    Sometimes I'll engage a fleet that I can easily steamroll, but autoresolve would end up killing off most of my fleet. In those cases, I'll manually go in, take out the biggest threats and whatever else gets in my way, then autoresolve since an easy victory is assured at that point. Being completely dominant can be fun for a while, but I'll get bored if there's no way to skip to the win when total victory is guaranteed.

    What I'd like you to take from that is that maybe keep autoresolve if you want to end combat early, but stipulate that only the ships currently deployed are allowed to be used by the autoresolve. You could even take it one step further and, instead of getting rid of second-in-command, dictate before battle which ships you want deployed for autoresolve (ie. tell second-in-command which ships he can use) and keep the rest in reserve. It's fine if you make autoresolve universally worse than manually fighting if it lets you skip trivial battles (although I'll be annoyed if one of my ships gets heavily damaged or destroyed needlessly like that).

    You could make it so that you can't autoresolve escape sequences if your primary concern is using autoresolve to catch speedy ships, and lower autoresolve's odds of catching speedy ships when they try to escape.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on June 01, 2013, 08:31:22 PM
    What I'd like you to take from that is that maybe keep autoresolve if you want to end combat early

    What happens now is you can end it early - with a win - once all the enemy ships are retreating. There's a message to let you know when this is happening.

    It's fine if you make autoresolve universally worse than manually fighting if it lets you skip trivial battles (although I'll be annoyed if one of my ships gets heavily damaged or destroyed needlessly like that).

    The problem I see there is, again, we're either in 1) autoresolve will handle it poorly because it looks more even on paper than it is or 2) they're trying to get away, so you can skip it already.


    You could make it so that you can't autoresolve escape sequences if your primary concern is using autoresolve to catch speedy ships, and lower autoresolve's odds of catching speedy ships when they try to escape.

    Hmm. I'm starting to think that "catch a bunch of stuff that's running away" might be the only case left where it's really useful. It's almost a given that you've got vastly superior forces, and it seems more feasible to tune it to be really bad at catching ships - though not utterly terrible - while disallowing a loss.

    Though there's still the CR issue there. Yeah, you could have "what the 2nd in command gets to deploy" selection stage... hmm. I'd considered that and thought it a bit of a hassle, but maybe that idea is worth another look. Then you could base the amount of stuff captured on how much stuff you allowed to be deployed.

    Yeah, I think that could work. You take out the unpleasant randomness of losing a battle because of it, and have an inefficient shortcut to a potentially bothersome task of chasing down a bunch of stuff. Though those battles actually tend to be a fun change of pace, especially when the enemy has a decent amount of escorts and they use them to delay/escort the fleeing ships.

    You'd probably still end up with the occasional "how'd that lone Atlas get away from 3 Tempests", but I suppose that's the breaks when you trust the 2nd in command.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Dri on June 01, 2013, 08:53:36 PM
    Don't load in the art assets and just have the autopilot simulation run greatly accelerated in the background? I know this may still take some seconds to run its course but it sure beats out coming up with some funky RNG system and other formulas that govern autoresolve.

    Sword of the Stars 2 uses its combat engine for autoresolve, just greatly speed up, and that game has full on newtonian physics and full 3d battlefields and while it takes ~5-10 seconds to play it out the results are much more accurate and believable because its an actual, fully played out battle. So why can't Starsector use its own combat engine just speed up?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: naufrago on June 01, 2013, 09:13:08 PM
    What happens now is you can end it early - with a win - once all the enemy ships are retreating. There's a message to let you know when this is happening.

    Ah, I missed that part in the patch notes. Good to know.

    Well, autoresolve seems like a tricky subject, so I'll trust your opinion. But I'm glad if any perspective I can offer helps at all =)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on June 01, 2013, 09:31:56 PM
    ... and that game has full on newtonian physics and full 3d battlefields ...

    I can't really speak about SotS since I'm not familiar with the game, but neither of those are indicative of the complexity of the simulation. Other stuff (like the AI, and managing the state of all the entities/weapons/etc) is much more CPU-intensive.

    At this point - in Starsector - the graphics and the simulation tend to take roughly the same amount of time per frame, unless there's a serious imbalance in the hardware. So, at worst, assuming the game was just barely running at 30 fps, you would speed the battle up by a factor of 2 or so by ditching the graphics. That's clearly not good enough.

    Why look at the worst case? Well, we're talking about hardware that can handle the game. If *autoresolve* is what makes the game have higher performance requirements, something is very wrong.

    (Even if we decide to increase the simulation step size, I don't think it'd do enough. At the point where it would, we're talking about missing collisions and seriously affecting the fidelity of the simulation in other ways. Really, it's not even practical with high-end hardware - at best we'd be talking something like 30 seconds for a decent-sized battle.)



    Well, autoresolve seems like a tricky subject, so I'll trust your opinion. But I'm glad if any perspective I can offer helps at all =)

    I appreciate the feedback/ideas. It is a tricky subject, so seeing others' perspective really does help.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Talkie Toaster on June 02, 2013, 03:19:09 AM
    ... and that game has full on newtonian physics and full 3d battlefields ...
    (Even if we decide to increase the simulation step size, I don't think it'd do enough. At the point where it would, we're talking about missing collisions and seriously affecting the fidelity of the simulation in other ways. Really, it's not even practical with high-end hardware - at best we'd be talking something like 30 seconds for a decent-sized battle.)
    This is how SotS does it, which leads to problems like missiles being more effective in autoresolve as PD has fewer chances to hit them.

    Plus... SotS2 has suffered from huge performance and stability issues since day 1, and is no exemplar of game design either. Not really something to use as a target.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on June 02, 2013, 03:43:06 AM
    That said, I definitely want to hear what you guys think. Are there cases where you'd want to use it that I didn't cover in the above?

    To expand on what I said before, for me the only real reason to miss AR would be the forced switch out of the campaign layer. The only thing I can really compare it with is the Total War series. First I have to say that I absolutely love the battle system in those games, I would buy them just for it (same with Sector). But they take time and a lot of concentration. The same goes for the campaign layer, where I have to plan much more long-term. So when I'm busy planning ahead (invasion of Spain, marriage of my daughter, assassination of the pope), the last thing I need is to be completely interrupted in my thoughts by a skirmish against some rebels. I autoresolve in these cases, even at the price of losses.

    Well, it is probably not as drastic with Starsector since you only have one fleet instead of several armies you have to worry about. Still, even now, this is almost the only thing I use AR for. I don't grind, but if I have the idea that I absolutely need an Omen now, I will set course to the Tri-Tach station and autoresolve every smaller battle on the way there, because fighting is not what I want right now. Honestly, there's a good chance I don't even know anymore what my plan was after a battle.

    ... which, thinking about it, may be the core of my problem. Mh. Had the same problem in Mount and Blade, with trading runs where I forgot destination and price of my goods during battles (which I didn't like btw).

    Mhhh. Now I want a memo function. :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on June 02, 2013, 06:54:43 AM
    autoresolve usefull only for grinding and nothing else.

    this game not about grinding, there is no reason to allow player autoresolve.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ValkyriaL on June 02, 2013, 07:01:46 AM
    At the current stage of development, SS is about grinding since the other features haven't been added yet, autoresolve is a way to skip boring battles when your fleet far outmatches the enemy to the point that you have 100% chance of winning anyway, but i suppose you knew that right?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on June 02, 2013, 09:46:31 AM
    ... and that game has full on newtonian physics and full 3d battlefields ...
    (Even if we decide to increase the simulation step size, I don't think it'd do enough. At the point where it would, we're talking about missing collisions and seriously affecting the fidelity of the simulation in other ways. Really, it's not even practical with high-end hardware - at best we'd be talking something like 30 seconds for a decent-sized battle.)
    This is how SotS does it, which leads to problems like missiles being more effective in autoresolve as PD has fewer chances to hit them.

    Plus... SotS2 has suffered from huge performance and stability issues since day 1, and is no exemplar of game design either. Not really something to use as a target.

    Ah, good to know. In fairness, losing some simulation fidelity might be ok - I mean, ok, say the missiles are more effective, but the overall end result is probably still pretty accurate. Unless you got for dedicated missile boats, I suppose :)

    To expand on what I said before, for me the only real reason to miss AR would be the forced switch out of the campaign layer. The only thing I can really compare it with is the Total War series. First I have to say that I absolutely love the battle system in those games, I would buy them just for it (same with Sector). But they take time and a lot of concentration. The same goes for the campaign layer, where I have to plan much more long-term. So when I'm busy planning ahead (invasion of Spain, marriage of my daughter, assassination of the pope), the last thing I need is to be completely interrupted in my thoughts by a skirmish against some rebels. I autoresolve in these cases, even at the price of losses.

    Hmm. I'm a fan of the TW series, too. (Well, I picked up TW: Shogun 2 a while ago, and that didn't go so well, though I liked the earlier games a lot. But I digress.)

    Thinking about how that worked, yeah, at some point you just want to focus on the grand strategy and your individual battles don't matter as much anymore. You've got the numbers/income to absorb extra losses. There are also lots of trivial battles where you do have an overwhelming army taking out some piddly province with a unit of spearmen or some such, and ensuring 0 losses is just not worth the loading time.

    In those circumstances, autoresolve is great.

    Moving on to Starsector, though: considering an inferior enemy should decide to flee, the only time that'll come into play is either in an escape-style battle or if the enemy fleet overestimates its capabilities *compared to the outcome autoresolve would create*. The latter is more of an AI problem, and is largely resolved in 0.6a.

    There's the possibility of suicidal types attacking you, though. The "Cult of Lud" comes to mind here... right, ok. Need to think about that some more, but seems like a pretty good reason right there, even if not immediately relevant.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on June 02, 2013, 12:14:30 PM
    Moving on to Starsector, though: considering an inferior enemy should decide to flee, the only time that'll come into play is either in an escape-style battle or if the enemy fleet overestimates its capabilities *compared to the outcome autoresolve would create*. The latter is more of an AI problem, and is largely resolved in 0.6a.

    Or some fast scout group strays into my path by accident and I get to just signal to have it squashed with a languid gesture, which happens more often then you'd think ;D  I suppose I could just let it go, but...such impudence!

    Seriously though, if the AI stops overestimating it's combat capabilities most of my concern is gone. If you mentioned that fact before, I missed it.

    e/ Oh, wait, they would be fleeing, so if you go through with allowing autoresolve against a fleeing enemy that would be covered, too.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on June 02, 2013, 12:56:13 PM
    That's the only time I use autoresolve, too. When a fleet like the one I described earlier decides to toss itself at me. A couple frigates against a leveled up capital ship is a one-sided fight. If there's a hint that autoresolve might not cut it, like taking on the Heg Defense Fleet, I'll fly personally. On paper, the Heg Defense Fleet should roflstomp a lone capital ship. But they've never met me, have they?  :P
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: conithwolf on June 02, 2013, 08:39:42 PM
    im stuck where is the download link for the new patches i cant find them and im not getting emails for the updates
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flashydragon on June 02, 2013, 09:50:17 PM
    im stuck where is the download link for the new patches i cant find them and im not getting emails for the updates

    Hey conithwolf, have you tried http://fractalsoftworks.com/preorder/ yet? there should be a download link for your operating system at the bottom, for you to get the game. have you tried looking in your Spam inbox for your email yet? if you have, and you really think you should be getting emails, try sending your questions to  [email protected] ! :D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on June 02, 2013, 10:48:37 PM
    If you mean Starfarer Starsector 0.6, you may have missed the "(In Development)" part of the thread title. It's not out yet, buddy. As for 0.54a, you can grab that by looking through the blog and going back a couple months.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flashydragon on June 02, 2013, 11:25:42 PM
    If you mean Starfarer Starsector 0.6, you may have missed the "(In Development)" part of the thread title. It's not out yet, buddy. As for 0.54a, you can grab that by looking through the blog and going back a couple months.
    Oh!! "NEW" patches...lol. and here i thought i was being helpful, and stuff.  :(

    I usually just check the buy page, and see what the save as fucntion spits out at me, if no .6, get that outta here!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: conithwolf on June 03, 2013, 12:26:13 AM
    no i saw all the notes so i thought it was a working patch where they bring it out bit by bit then when it is done compile it like some of the mods for the game i thought the dev's were releasing it like that it my fault for the misunderstanding and tank you for the advice and info
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on June 03, 2013, 02:49:59 AM
    some currently disabled tabs state that in longrun player will be allowed to have more then one fleet and his own space stations.

    autoresolve for player fleet in such case make no sence, if you dont want to waste your time, you merely sent your officer to weak enemy fleet.

    also i expect non instant round based m&b style AI battles, that allow to join midcombat, this will provide additional grand strategy layer, when you direct your officers around and join only battles that require skill and luck to win.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Durandal4532 on June 03, 2013, 06:53:19 AM
    What I'd like you to take from that is that maybe keep autoresolve if you want to end combat early

    What happens now is you can end it early - with a win - once all the enemy ships are retreating. There's a message to let you know when this is happening.

    It's fine if you make autoresolve universally worse than manually fighting if it lets you skip trivial battles (although I'll be annoyed if one of my ships gets heavily damaged or destroyed needlessly like that).

    The problem I see there is, again, we're either in 1) autoresolve will handle it poorly because it looks more even on paper than it is or 2) they're trying to get away, so you can skip it already.


    You could make it so that you can't autoresolve escape sequences if your primary concern is using autoresolve to catch speedy ships, and lower autoresolve's odds of catching speedy ships when they try to escape.

    Hmm. I'm starting to think that "catch a bunch of stuff that's running away" might be the only case left where it's really useful. It's almost a given that you've got vastly superior forces, and it seems more feasible to tune it to be really bad at catching ships - though not utterly terrible - while disallowing a loss.

    Though there's still the CR issue there. Yeah, you could have "what the 2nd in command gets to deploy" selection stage... hmm. I'd considered that and thought it a bit of a hassle, but maybe that idea is worth another look. Then you could base the amount of stuff captured on how much stuff you allowed to be deployed.

    Yeah, I think that could work. You take out the unpleasant randomness of losing a battle because of it, and have an inefficient shortcut to a potentially bothersome task of chasing down a bunch of stuff. Though those battles actually tend to be a fun change of pace, especially when the enemy has a decent amount of escorts and they use them to delay/escort the fleeing ships.

    You'd probably still end up with the occasional "how'd that lone Atlas get away from 3 Tempests", but I suppose that's the breaks when you trust the 2nd in command.

    You know, this might be too insane to reliably implement... but it would be kind of neat if autoresolve was, in-game, "telling the second in command to handle it." Such that if it messes up you've got someone to demote, or something.

    I don't know if that would add enough to the experience for other players to care, but part of the fun in this sort of game for me is that sort of role-playing. Having actions depend upon or be related to crew members helps that. For instance, FTL wrings a lot of pathos out of having one of your resources be the crew manning each station.

    Of course, it's not like the game is going to be designed to have you constantly auto-resolve so it might not make sense to look at it for anything but balance. I just like the idea of chastising someone for my bad luck, like a real boss!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flashydragon on June 03, 2013, 05:35:13 PM
    What I'd like you to take from that is that maybe keep autoresolve if you want to end combat early

    What happens now is you can end it early - with a win - once all the enemy ships are retreating. There's a message to let you know when this is happening.

    It's fine if you make autoresolve universally worse than manually fighting if it lets you skip trivial battles (although I'll be annoyed if one of my ships gets heavily damaged or destroyed needlessly like that).

    The problem I see there is, again, we're either in 1) autoresolve will handle it poorly because it looks more even on paper than it is or 2) they're trying to get away, so you can skip it already.


    You could make it so that you can't autoresolve escape sequences if your primary concern is using autoresolve to catch speedy ships, and lower autoresolve's odds of catching speedy ships when they try to escape.

    Hmm. I'm starting to think that "catch a bunch of stuff that's running away" might be the only case left where it's really useful. It's almost a given that you've got vastly superior forces, and it seems more feasible to tune it to be really bad at catching ships - though not utterly terrible - while disallowing a loss.

    Though there's still the CR issue there. Yeah, you could have "what the 2nd in command gets to deploy" selection stage... hmm. I'd considered that and thought it a bit of a hassle, but maybe that idea is worth another look. Then you could base the amount of stuff captured on how much stuff you allowed to be deployed.

    Yeah, I think that could work. You take out the unpleasant randomness of losing a battle because of it, and have an inefficient shortcut to a potentially bothersome task of chasing down a bunch of stuff. Though those battles actually tend to be a fun change of pace, especially when the enemy has a decent amount of escorts and they use them to delay/escort the fleeing ships.

    You'd probably still end up with the occasional "how'd that lone Atlas get away from 3 Tempests", but I suppose that's the breaks when you trust the 2nd in command.

    You know, this might be too insane to reliably implement... but it would be kind of neat if autoresolve was, in-game, "telling the second in command to handle it." Such that if it messes up you've got someone to demote, or something.

    I don't know if that would add enough to the experience for other players to care, but part of the fun in this sort of game for me is that sort of role-playing. Having actions depend upon or be related to crew members helps that. For instance, FTL wrings a lot of pathos out of having one of your resources be the crew manning each station.

    Of course, it's not like the game is going to be designed to have you constantly auto-resolve so it might not make sense to look at it for anything but balance. I just like the idea of chastising someone for my bad luck, like a real boss!

    Hahaha! I love it! while i don't Role Play very much myself, I've had great experiences with it in the past, I'd love to see something along those lines with the eventual officers tab! 8)

    "yeahhhhhhh...it'd be great if you could drive the fleet to the pirate HQ this Saturday...my stapler" :'(
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ciago92 on June 04, 2013, 12:48:58 PM
    *snip*

    You know, this might be too insane to reliably implement... but it would be kind of neat if autoresolve was, in-game, "telling the second in command to handle it." Such that if it messes up you've got someone to demote, or something.

    I don't know if that would add enough to the experience for other players to care, but part of the fun in this sort of game for me is that sort of role-playing. Having actions depend upon or be related to crew members helps that. For instance, FTL wrings a lot of pathos out of having one of your resources be the crew manning each station.

    Of course, it's not like the game is going to be designed to have you constantly auto-resolve so it might not make sense to look at it for anything but balance. I just like the idea of chastising someone for my bad luck, like a real boss!

    I like this idea! Maybe once officers come anyways, but I like the idea of having a second in command who is trained by being in command or gets a little experience from watching you. then he's in command of the battle and if his ship goes down he dies or if he screws up enough you can fire him and get a new one. although I can't think of a reason to fire someone experienced so that'd have to be balanced somehow
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nanostrike on June 04, 2013, 09:54:48 PM
    Just started playing again and I'd like to mention something that Alex probably forgot:

    After all the recent changes, a lot of the "Missions" (IE: Standalone battle scenarios) probably need to be re-examined and re-tuned.  With the new ship abilities, improved enemy AI, and balance changes to some weapons, some of the battles that were balanced before are now incredibly lopsided.

    'For the Greater Lud' is one that really stands out.  With the default setup, it's gone from a fairly straightforward scenario to a quite frustrating one.  The enemies are always spot-on with the shielding now, and the default setup gives you NO weapons that are any good against shields.  And with the improved ballistic weapons and better accuracy, the enemy fleet will quickly shred all of your bombers and sweep you off the map.

    Mind you, I'm not saying it's impossible by any means.  Just VERY difficult.  Meanwhile, refitting a few of your ships with different weaponry makes the entire scenario easily beatable.


    Several scenarios have this problem now.  The main issues seem to be:

    -The AI in general has gotten far better.  This makes a lot of the scenarios where the player has to save the day due to superior skill much harder.  They don't make many mistakes and leave few openings.  While I'm happy it has good AI, there should probably be some sort of level adjustment for it (Based on crew rank/admiral rank, ect) so that rookie-crewed ships aren't shielding perfectly and landing every shot like Elite crews are.

    -The High-Tech ships seem to absolutely dominate almost everything else.  It was rough enough when they just had better shields and more maneuverability.  But now they have things like teleportation, terminator drones, and phase-skipping.  Most missions where you control the high-tech ships are significantly easier, while missions where you are against them can be incredibly frustrating.

    -With the addition of the Burn Drive, a lot of scenarios get messy on such small maps.  ESPECIALLY the "Catch the retreating enemy" scenarios like 'The Wolfpack'.  With the Burn Drive and the small map, they can clear the entire screen incredibly fast.  Again, not saying it makes the mission impossible, but it inflates the difficulty a good bit.



    TL;DR: The Missions need to be brought back up to speed after all the changes to the game.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nanostrike on June 04, 2013, 10:07:56 PM
    Aside from the missions, my first impressions after all these changes are:

    -The Hyperion is completely worthy of it's high FP cost.  It's pretty much perfect now.
    -Tempests are, IMO, still stupidly overpowered even after the speed nerf.  They're incredibly frustrating to fight now, because the AI tends to just spam the Terminator Drones and endlessly kite you around the map.
    -The Omen is no longer useless now that it can rock missiles and fighters with it's EMP.  RIP 'Useless Omen' meme...
    -The Brawler, on the other hand, is still pretty bad.  Anything it could overpower can easily outrun it and anything it can catch can usually beat it down in a straight-on fight.  I dunno what it needs, but it needs something.
    -Phase Ships are cool and pretty well done.
    -Burst weapons are pretty awesome now.
    -The Hull Mod system is amazingly flexible.  Love it.
    -Atropos Torpedos are still really bad.  You're almost always better off with Reaper Torpedos, which are faster, deal their damage in a faster burst, and are more durable when en-route to a target.  Atropos Torps are really fragile, swatted down by even the most modest PD weaponry, slow enough that all but the largest ships can evade them, and have such poor targeting that they might as well be unguided.  They need some love.



    I'll give more feedback after I play more.  Keep up the awesome work on the game.  It's come a long way in just a few months!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xanderh on June 05, 2013, 03:06:24 AM
    Aside from the missions, my first impressions after all these changes are:

    -The Hyperion is completely worthy of it's high FP cost.  It's pretty much perfect now.
    -Tempests are, IMO, still stupidly overpowered even after the speed nerf.  They're incredibly frustrating to fight now, because the AI tends to just spam the Terminator Drones and endlessly kite you around the map.
    -The Omen is no longer useless now that it can rock missiles and fighters with it's EMP.  RIP 'Useless Omen' meme...
    -The Brawler, on the other hand, is still pretty bad.  Anything it could overpower can easily outrun it and anything it can catch can usually beat it down in a straight-on fight.  I dunno what it needs, but it needs something.
    -Phase Ships are cool and pretty well done.
    -Burst weapons are pretty awesome now.
    -The Hull Mod system is amazingly flexible.  Love it.
    -Atropos Torpedos are still really bad.  You're almost always better off with Reaper Torpedos, which are faster, deal their damage in a faster burst, and are more durable when en-route to a target.  Atropos Torps are really fragile, swatted down by even the most modest PD weaponry, slow enough that all but the largest ships can evade them, and have such poor targeting that they might as well be unguided.  They need some love.



    I'll give more feedback after I play more.  Keep up the awesome work on the game.  It's come a long way in just a few months!


    From what you just posted, it sounds like you think it updated. It didn't ;)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on June 05, 2013, 07:54:46 AM
    each ship have it's own place.

    you just cant compare performance of different class ships.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nanostrike on June 05, 2013, 08:38:11 AM
    From what you just posted, it sounds like you think it updated. It didn't ;)

    I should've been more clear.  I hadn't been playing in a while.  I just updated from 0.51 to 0.54.1a and was talking about the changes between those two versions.

    I just didn't wanna necro the old topic since this is the newest one.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on June 05, 2013, 09:36:54 AM
    Just started playing again and I'd like to mention something that Alex probably forgot:

    After all the recent changes, a lot of the "Missions" (IE: Standalone battle scenarios) probably need to be re-examined and re-tuned.  With the new ship abilities, improved enemy AI, and balance changes to some weapons, some of the battles that were balanced before are now incredibly lopsided.
    ...

    Hi, welcome back - long time!

    Right. Tuning up (redoing, really) the missions is actually on my list :) It's not something I like to do often because it's a moving target; fine-tuning can be a waste when more things are going to change later anyway. But at this point - with the new deployment mechanics - it's just necessary. I might end up paring down the mission list a bit just to make the process more manageable.

    Thanks for all the other feedback, too - it's good to see a "first impressions" style thing from someone that's been away for a while.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Reapy on June 05, 2013, 04:19:04 PM
    For the autoresolve, probably just going to echo what others have said. Through out all my years of gaming on 4x and whatever else that had auto resolve functions I have ALWAYS avoided it when I cared about the results, and that is 95% of the time. Usually that stems from not knowing what autoresolve will do and not trusting it to account for it to play style of my units.

    But having the button there for endless fly swatting missions is really good, like other's said, you are either huge with many armies/fleets (not sure if there will be multifleeting ) or you bumped into an army that is going to get smashed. It is sort of annoying to load up the battle sequence, deploy fleets, wait for them to close, start shooting them and chasing them down after, basically it offers no rewarding gameplay in any capacity.

    But yeah having them AI know when they are outgunned via CR / Logistic points etc accurately and then fleeing 100% of the time (except if they are suicidal faction as you said) during those trivial encounters and then auto resolving the fleeing scenario only it would hopefully get rid of those painful situations.

    Even if the lud faction there or whatever is crazy like that, that might contribute to the PITA of navigating their areas with having to constantly fight them, or you can perhaps keep their fleet sizes high enough that it won't ever be a boring smash fest, eg swatting3 scout ships is boring, but 10 of them, well, that is probably some fun fireworks.

    For autoresolve values, I always thought it would be interesting to leave a spare pc running 24x7 putting together random fleet / loadouts/crew levels, running the fight sped up, then recording results. Then have it continue on forever in a monte carlo style simulation, eventually taking all that data during fight time such that you can find the closest match of the fleet loadouts in that data.

    Since that would take forever, we really aught to set up a seti-online / [email protected] distributed starsector autoresolve generator and put the world's computers to work crunching this important data. Clearly this is worth a couple month pause in development to get up and running, right? :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ciago92 on June 05, 2013, 04:46:10 PM
    For the autoresolve, probably just going to echo what others have said. Through out all my years of gaming on 4x and whatever else that had auto resolve functions I have ALWAYS avoided it when I cared about the results, and that is 95% of the time. Usually that stems from not knowing what autoresolve will do and not trusting it to account for it to play style of my units.

    But having the button there for endless fly swatting missions is really good, like other's said, you are either huge with many armies/fleets (not sure if there will be multifleeting ) or you bumped into an army that is going to get smashed. It is sort of annoying to load up the battle sequence, deploy fleets, wait for them to close, start shooting them and chasing them down after, basically it offers no rewarding gameplay in any capacity.

    But yeah having them AI know when they are outgunned via CR / Logistic points etc accurately and then fleeing 100% of the time (except if they are suicidal faction as you said) during those trivial encounters and then auto resolving the fleeing scenario only it would hopefully get rid of those painful situations.

    Even if the lud faction there or whatever is crazy like that, that might contribute to the PITA of navigating their areas with having to constantly fight them, or you can perhaps keep their fleet sizes high enough that it won't ever be a boring smash fest, eg swatting3 scout ships is boring, but 10 of them, well, that is probably some fun fireworks.

    For autoresolve values, I always thought it would be interesting to leave a spare pc running 24x7 putting together random fleet / loadouts/crew levels, running the fight sped up, then recording results. Then have it continue on forever in a monte carlo style simulation, eventually taking all that data during fight time such that you can find the closest match of the fleet loadouts in that data.

    Since that would take forever, we really aught to set up a seti-online / [email protected] distributed starsector autoresolve generator and put the world's computers to work crunching this important data. Clearly this is worth a couple month pause in development to get up and running, right? :)

    completely worth it and I'm already running seti so I will help with this vital task!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flashydragon on June 05, 2013, 11:33:31 PM
    For the autoresolve, probably just going to echo what others have said. Through out all my years of gaming on 4x and whatever else that had auto resolve functions I have ALWAYS avoided it when I cared about the results, and that is 95% of the time. Usually that stems from not knowing what autoresolve will do and not trusting it to account for it to play style of my units.

    But having the button there for endless fly swatting missions is really good, like other's said, you are either huge with many armies/fleets (not sure if there will be multifleeting ) or you bumped into an army that is going to get smashed. It is sort of annoying to load up the battle sequence, deploy fleets, wait for them to close, start shooting them and chasing them down after, basically it offers no rewarding gameplay in any capacity.

    But yeah having them AI know when they are outgunned via CR / Logistic points etc accurately and then fleeing 100% of the time (except if they are suicidal faction as you said) during those trivial encounters and then auto resolving the fleeing scenario only it would hopefully get rid of those painful situations.

    Even if the lud faction there or whatever is crazy like that, that might contribute to the PITA of navigating their areas with having to constantly fight them, or you can perhaps keep their fleet sizes high enough that it won't ever be a boring smash fest, eg swatting3 scout ships is boring, but 10 of them, well, that is probably some fun fireworks.

    For autoresolve values, I always thought it would be interesting to leave a spare pc running 24x7 putting together random fleet / loadouts/crew levels, running the fight sped up, then recording results. Then have it continue on forever in a monte carlo style simulation, eventually taking all that data during fight time such that you can find the closest match of the fleet loadouts in that data.

    Since that would take forever, we really aught to set up a seti-online / [email protected] distributed starsector autoresolve generator and put the world's computers to work crunching this important data. Clearly this is worth a couple month pause in development to get up and running, right? :)

    completely worth it and I'm already running seti so I will help with this vital task!

    Eheheheheheehee...This is the universe. This is the universe on StarSector. :o
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nanostrike on June 06, 2013, 12:38:26 AM
    Just started playing again and I'd like to mention something that Alex probably forgot:

    After all the recent changes, a lot of the "Missions" (IE: Standalone battle scenarios) probably need to be re-examined and re-tuned.  With the new ship abilities, improved enemy AI, and balance changes to some weapons, some of the battles that were balanced before are now incredibly lopsided.
    ...

    Hi, welcome back - long time!

    Right. Tuning up (redoing, really) the missions is actually on my list :) It's not something I like to do often because it's a moving target; fine-tuning can be a waste when more things are going to change later anyway. But at this point - with the new deployment mechanics - it's just necessary. I might end up paring down the mission list a bit just to make the process more manageable.

    Thanks for all the other feedback, too - it's good to see a "first impressions" style thing from someone that's been away for a while.

    Since I dug into the campaign, I have a few more insights:

    -Accidents are a royal pain early in the game when you only have one ship.  It makes the one-ship grind a pain.  However once you get a fleet, it's largely trivial because you'll have more than enough cargo space.  Might need some slight adjusting or something just to make it less frustrating and grindy.
    -The Hegemony Station's default equipment available is mostly junk, while both the Pirate and Tri-Tachyon bases have excellent gear.  After a few convoys, it gets some better stuff, but it's default stuff could use a boost.


    -The AI for ships almost seems too good for them having only Green or Regular crews.  They seldom make mistakes, can perfectly time shielding, and are very accurate against moving targets.  I could see this for Veteran or Elite crews, but with less experienced crews, it just feels kinda off.
    -The "Panic and fire all of your missiles a split second before you die" thing that a lot of the larger ships seem to have now is pretty annoying.  Just sayin'.
    -Did I mention that I hate Tempests with a passion?  If you haven't invested in Speed upgrades, you'll probably never catch them and they'll kite you while spamming Terminator Drones constantly.  They're the most frustrating ship to fight, hands-down.  Good god, I hate these things.

    -The tech trees are great.  Technology let me tweak out my ships on one character, while Combat let me have super-fast guns-blazing ships on another.  Makes each character feel unique.  However....
    -The Leadership tree is fairly underwhelming.  There wasn't much in it that made me feel "Wow, this character is a super-good commander!".  I had some ideas for things you could put in it.  IMO, it's a perfect tree to put boosts for:
    *Fighters (Since you never directly control them, but commanding them well is vital)
    *Increasing Cargo, Personnel, and Fuel capacity
    *Increasing boosts from controlling Nav Buoys, Sensor Arrays, ect
    *Increasing line of sight/sensor range for your fleet in battle
    *Allowing you to give a number of pre-battle orders to your fleet (The number of these bonus orders would increase with rank)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Debido on June 06, 2013, 05:42:18 AM
    For the autoresolve, probably just going to echo what others have said. Through out all my years of gaming on 4x and whatever else that had auto resolve functions I have ALWAYS avoided it when I cared about the results, and that is 95% of the time. Usually that stems from not knowing what autoresolve will do and not trusting it to account for it to play style of my units.

    .....

    Since that would take forever, we really aught to set up a seti-online / [email protected] distributed starsector autoresolve generator and put the world's computers to work crunching this important data. Clearly this is worth a couple month pause in development to get up and running, right? :)

    Well.... here is some food for thought, how comfortable would people be with letting Starsector send back combat and game statistics to Alex? With real statistical numbers and meaningful information being derived from it, it could help reduce the length of development and produce a higher quality game.

    I personally don't mind if my game and combat stats are uploaded to a server. I believe Valve already implement a stats tracker in their games.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ciago92 on June 06, 2013, 08:37:40 AM
    For the autoresolve, probably just going to echo what others have said. Through out all my years of gaming on 4x and whatever else that had auto resolve functions I have ALWAYS avoided it when I cared about the results, and that is 95% of the time. Usually that stems from not knowing what autoresolve will do and not trusting it to account for it to play style of my units.

    .....

    Since that would take forever, we really aught to set up a seti-online / [email protected] distributed starsector autoresolve generator and put the world's computers to work crunching this important data. Clearly this is worth a couple month pause in development to get up and running, right? :)

    Well.... here is some food for thought, how comfortable would people be with letting Starsector send back combat and game statistics to Alex? With real statistical numbers and meaningful information being derived from it, it could help reduce the length of development and produce a higher quality game.

    I personally don't mind if my game and combat stats are uploaded to a server. I believe Valve already implement a stats tracker in their games.
    Completely okay with this and support it being added if it helps out
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nanostrike on June 06, 2013, 11:17:29 AM
    I'd be fine with a Stat Tracker, as long as we get to peek at the results!  I'm always curious about other peoples' battles, especially people that pilot Capital Ships.

    I'm STILL a Strike Frigate pilot to the core and can't do much in anything bigger than a Destroyer because they feel too slow for me!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Pentakill on June 07, 2013, 02:06:49 AM
    Well i'm off to Marines bootcamp Monday morning, guess I shouldn't be too worried though.
    At the rate this game is being developed there still won't be more than one star system, outposts, officers, or much else by the time i'm back! In four years.... -_-

    But really, much love Alex. This game kicks ass! I look forward to the final product upon my return to civilization.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on June 07, 2013, 10:35:48 AM
    Best of luck to you!


    And thanks :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: LazyWizard on June 08, 2013, 03:42:19 AM
    • generators.csv is now deprecated, use ModPlugin.onNewGame instead.
    • Added "newGameCreationEntryPoint" to "plugins" section in settings.json

    Just to clarify: will all mods' ModPlugin.onNewGame() be called, or just the one pointed to from newGameCreationEntryPoint? Is there still an equivalent to replacing generators.csv with this new system?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on June 08, 2013, 09:56:20 AM
    Just to clarify: will all mods' ModPlugin.onNewGame() be called, or just the one pointed to from newGameCreationEntryPoint? Is there still an equivalent to replacing generators.csv with this new system?

    onNewGame() will be called for all mods. newGameCreationEntryPoint just points to SectorGen. Which also includes registering a core implementation of the CampaignPlugin and some other stuff.

    The order things are called in when a new game is created is:
    newGameCreationEntryPoint.generate()
    .generate() for everything in generators.csv (only there for some degree of backwards compatibility)
    plugin.onNewGame(); for every ModPlugin

    The equivalent to replacing generators.csv (which is something only a TC would do, right?) would be to point newGameCreationEntryPoint to another implementation of SectorGenerationPlugin.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on June 08, 2013, 02:09:29 PM
    I just realized that after the CR update, this will be the first videogame ever where I can actually "bring in the reserves" or "send backup", and it will have real meaning in the game. Splitting my forces according to the threat level is something I have done since the first strategy games I played, but it was never much more than make believe or roleplay.
    Thank you for that, Alex.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Plasmatic on June 09, 2013, 02:56:31 AM
    You are making it very difficult to stay patient waiting for the update Alex :P

    I check on a daily basis wondering if you have finished the work yet :D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xanderh on June 09, 2013, 05:47:16 AM
    You are making it very difficult to stay patient waiting for the update Alex :P

    I check on a daily basis wondering if you have finished the work yet :D
    Same.

    I get on here daily when I turn on my PC, just to check on this thread.


    Keep up the good work, looking forward to the next update :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: K-64 on June 09, 2013, 09:00:39 AM
    It's very easy to be patient. It's called finding other things to do in the meantime :P
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Upgradecap on June 09, 2013, 09:07:56 AM
    It's very easy to be patient. It's called finding other things to do in the meantime :P

    Like spess.



    (station 13!)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ciago92 on June 09, 2013, 09:28:26 AM
    You are making it very difficult to stay patient waiting for the update Alex :P

    I check on a daily basis wondering if you have finished the work yet :D
    Same.

    I get on here daily when I turn on my PC, just to check on this thread.


    Keep up the good work, looking forward to the next update :)

    same, I really need the next update lol!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Jaga on June 09, 2013, 12:11:13 PM
    At some point (hopefully), Alex will realize you need to shift from working on the game's framework, to working on the "game" portion itself.  I keep checking back in monthly, only to find the framework effort continuing.  It's been two years or more (?) and we're still single-sector sandbox?

    Not belittling the effort Alex, but there's a game portion to be written too, yes?  Story, campaign, universe, etc etc.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: FloW on June 09, 2013, 12:24:55 PM
    At some point (hopefully), Alex will realize you need to shift from working on the game's framework, to working on the "game" portion itself.  I keep checking back in monthly, only to find the framework effort continuing.  It's been two years or more (?) and we're still single-sector sandbox?

    Not belittling the effort Alex, but there's a game portion to be written too, yes?  Story, campaign, universe, etc etc.

    You will find that usually a house is built, before the furniture is put in.

    After the mechanics are in place, the actual content will be put in. But we don't even have a inter-system travel... system in place, so there will be some kind of work done on the mechanics anyways. For now there are mods that will help with introducing more content.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on June 09, 2013, 12:28:14 PM
    Thanks for the support and positive/informative comments, guys :)

    At some point (hopefully), Alex will realize you need to shift from working on the game's framework, to working on the "game" portion itself.  I keep checking back in monthly, only to find the framework effort continuing.  It's been two years or more (?) and we're still single-sector sandbox?

    Not belittling the effort Alex, but there's a game portion to be written too, yes?  Story, campaign, universe, etc etc.

    Yeah, very much aware of this! There's quite a bit of effort going on behind the scenes in that direction. It's also guiding what framework stuff gets done and how. But, as FloW points out, the framework has to be at least mostly done first, before all that stuff can make it into the game.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Decer304 on June 09, 2013, 04:14:30 PM
    With this really long wait (i'm cool with it BTW), i'm always hoping Alex would be adding some sort of content, like an extra sector and not telling us about it. Surprises are fun.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Dri on June 10, 2013, 08:31:02 PM
    Are StianStarks combat sounds going to make it into this update? I'd like to think hes had plenty of time to get them done...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on June 11, 2013, 02:39:19 AM
    Do you plan to scrap the blockade run scenario (what is currently called escape) completely, Alex? It might be nice to have it come up from time to time, maybe in connection with the option to blockade stations or hypergates. I mean, it is fun, just too harsh as an  escape scenario where you have no choice. And since the mechanic and admiral AI are already in place...


    Are StianStarks combat sounds going to make it into this update? I'd like to think hes had plenty of time to get them done...

    They are in the trailer, so I think its safe to say they will be in the game.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on June 11, 2013, 02:13:57 PM
    I like surprises, myself.

    Are StianStarks combat sounds going to make it into this update? I'd like to think hes had plenty of time to get them done...

    Good chance of that. They're certainly progressing, and I'm very much hoping the timing will work out.

    Do you plan to scrap the blockade run scenario (what is currently called escape) completely, Alex? It might be nice to have it come up from time to time, maybe in connection with the option to blockade stations or hypergates. I mean, it is fun, just too harsh as an  escape scenario where you have no choice. And since the mechanic and admiral AI are already in place...

    Scrapped, at least for now. Might add it later if campaign stuff warrants it, but too early to say with any degree of certainty. The new "escape" scenario could certainly serve anywhere the old "escape" could...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: miljan on June 11, 2013, 03:37:15 PM
    Question for next version. I generally like playing alone, so its only my ship in whole fleet (that big ***...onslaught). Will it still be possible to play with one ship and go from fight to fight in next version? Will it be a lot harder?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nanostrike on June 11, 2013, 03:47:55 PM
    Question for next version. I generally like playing alone, so its only my ship in whole fleet (that big ***...onslaught). Will it still be possible to play with one ship and go from fight to fight in next version? Will it be a lot harder?

    I'd guess if you put points in the Character Skill that speeds up repair/refit, it'd be a lot easier.


    On that note: Any plans on adding "Support" ships with (Out of combat) repairing/refitting capabilities?  We have freighters for cargo, tankers for fuel, ect.  With the "Combat Readiness" aspect, having a ship that speeds up repairs and re-readying would be very important.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on June 11, 2013, 04:58:35 PM
    I'd bet the old construction rig sprite is being dusted off for just that purpose.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: naufrago on June 11, 2013, 07:09:50 PM
    I like surprises, myself.

    Oooooooo, the teasing, it stings so. Does this perchance warrant rampant speculation?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Jonlissla on June 11, 2013, 11:10:03 PM
    On that note: Any plans on adding "Support" ships with (Out of combat) repairing/refitting capabilities?  We have freighters for cargo, tankers for fuel, ect.  With the "Combat Readiness" aspect, having a ship that speeds up repairs and re-readying would be very important.

    Good idea, I'd really like to see more support mechanics in the game. A drone which flies in front of an enemy ship and has a large shield arc to block damage, or a sensor array on a ship which can be activated and give a accuracy boost to nearby allies, or a mobile platform which can deploy to activate a set of in-built weapons.

    Tons of potential.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nanostrike on June 12, 2013, 09:50:31 PM
    There's another thing that I have to chime in on:

    The "Energy/High-Tech" ships still trump the "Ballistic/Low-Tech" ships by a mile.  Even if the High-Tech ships have a higher FP/Cost and cost more in costs...that doesn't matter in combat.  The fact is that the High-Tech ships are so much faster, better shielded, and having stronger reactors that they can dominate any of the other ships.

    They can pretty much engage and disengage at will and, aside from the Hound, none of the lower-tech ships can catch them unless they spend tons of OP on Engine boosts.


    This needs to be mixed up.  We need fast low-tech ships, for one.  Something that can regularly catch a Tempest when they try to Phase Skip out of combat to vent.  And we need some high-tech ships with Ballistics and low-techs with Energy Weapons.  Make them the exceptions that shake things up.

    And aside from the Vigilance frigate and the Gemini and Hammerhead destroyers, I don't think we have any Midline smaller ships.  I'm not complaining too much here, because I realize it's still early.  But the Tri-Tachyon fleets dominating everything else simply because they're better ships gets old pretty fast.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: PCCL on June 12, 2013, 09:53:52 PM
    1) yes it does matter in combat because the logistics involved means there will usually be less high tech ships on the field at any given time

    2) a fast brawler low tech ship might be nice, yes, might like to see that at some point

    3) you forgot the brawler, sunder and (if we are counting civvies) valkyrie
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flanker37t on June 13, 2013, 02:27:16 AM
    Small Tri-Tach ships are a lot faster, but that's perfectly normal. Heavier hi-tech ships are slow. Onslaught, Dominator and Enforcer are the fastest ships in their categories. They don't need powerful shields because it takes three anti-matter shots to just break the armor. Their firepower is overwhelming. Conquest is the most agile battlecruiser, it has 25% more powerful generators than the Odyssey, two times more weapons and three times more speed. Sunder with a plasma cannon or three heavy blasters can destroy cruisers and battlecruisers in 1-on-1 fights. I sincerely don't see your point, Nanostrike. ::)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nanostrike on June 13, 2013, 09:39:29 AM
    Small Tri-Tach ships are a lot faster, but that's perfectly normal. Heavier hi-tech ships are slow. Onslaught, Dominator and Enforcer are the fastest ships in their categories. They don't need powerful shields because it takes three anti-matter shots to just break the armor. Their firepower is overwhelming. Conquest is the most agile battlecruiser, it has 25% more powerful generators than the Odyssey, two times more weapons and three times more speed. Sunder with a plasma cannon or three heavy blasters can destroy cruisers and battlecruisers in 1-on-1 fights. I sincerely don't see your point, Nanostrike. ::)

    I'm referring mostly to the Frigates and Destroyers.  The Tri-Tach ones absolutely destroy their lower-tech rivals ridiculously easy due to Speed being so important and Shields being so much better than armor.  It's been this way from the beginning.  Something needs to be done to shake that up.  Especially in the Frigate department.

    Aside from the Hound, ALL Low-Tech/Midline Frigates seem to be crawling compared to the Tempest and Hyperion (Not even counting their teleporters!).  And that's the biggest thing that aggravates me.  It makes them INCREDIBLY frustrating to fight because, if they're well piloted, you can't catch them at all and they can fight until their flux is high, then just retreat, vent, and repeat.

    Unless you get a very lucky hit or two on them, there's very little you can do against this.  However, the entire issue would be taken down a peg with some faster Low-Tech/Midline ships.  Make them fragile or whatever to compensate, but just give some comparable speed!

    The problem isn't quite as bad with Destroyers and more-or-less vanishes by the Cruiser stage.  But with Frigates, the options are sorely limited.  I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the current ships.  Just that we need more of them to even out some balance issues that are starting to be pretty glaring.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flanker37t on June 13, 2013, 01:20:11 PM
    Ah, I see and totally agree. Low- and mid-tech frigates suck like a black hole. They are cheaper, you can get four Lashers for the same money as a single Tempest, but the bad thing is that Tempest will destroy all four without breaking a sweat.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Faiter119 on June 13, 2013, 02:15:30 PM
    Ah, I see and totally agree. Low- and mid-tech frigates suck like a black hole. They are cheaper, you can get four Lashers for the same money as a single Tempest, but the bad thing is that Tempest will destroy all four without breaking a sweat.

    Remember that ships aren't balanced around a 1v1 scenario though. They are useful in different scenarios.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Reshy on June 13, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
    Quote
    Extra CR cost for suffering a flameout of [sic] weapons being disabled by damage

    Doesn't this disproportionately affect Hedgemony forces?  I mean they take armor hits all the time and therefore weapons fall offline much more often than the other two factions.  Also will Automated Repair Unit mitigate the effect of the CR loss?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nanostrike on June 14, 2013, 09:24:09 AM
    Ah, I see and totally agree. Low- and mid-tech frigates suck like a black hole. They are cheaper, you can get four Lashers for the same money as a single Tempest, but the bad thing is that Tempest will destroy all four without breaking a sweat.

    This was my main point.  I get that Low-Tech ships are good at other stuff.  But right now the gap is so huge that it borders on ridiculous with Frigates.  And it's mostly because of the speed gap.

    Also, I STILL can't find a way to make the Brawler useful.  It's just so slow that it tends to just sputter around hopelessly trying to catch anything...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: PCCL on June 14, 2013, 09:33:59 AM
    I use brawlers as small fire support platforms for larger brawls (brawlers, get it?), park them behind cruisers or destroyers with either full anti armor for finishing (dual chaingun and dual LAG) or full anti shield to give your big ships an edge (all needlers if possible, dual HAC and DLAC otherwise)

    They aren't meant for small frigate fights, I'll give it that, they're more like pocket destroyers (all the firing profile of the head of a hammerhead with universals instead of missiles to boot, just no PD)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: flanker37t on June 15, 2013, 12:56:02 AM
    I think the problem is that currently players progress in the campaign very-very fast. Maybe in the full game, when one can't buy a Hyperion after destroying a couple Buffalos, players will use Brawlers because they simply have to use something? Restricting some ships to make others useful is not a good thing.

    I use brawlers as small fire support platforms for larger brawls

    Omens are much more useful as support ships, they are faster, their shields are definitely better, they can obliterate a missile salvo with their EMP and they cost mere 6.6K. Tempests are excellent harassers. Medusa-class is best as a Capital escort.
    Also, IMO Brawlers are useless in larger brawls, because the first shot from a capital overloads them, the second finishes them. And they have mobility of a destroyer, they rarely can move out of the harm's way. Brawler isn't even a frigate, it's a gunship! It should be faster, if you think about it.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: PCCL on June 15, 2013, 02:08:13 AM
    omens have no firepower worth a damn as far as cruiser sized battles go. If you let brawlers take cover behind your bigger ships and pop out to fire they can survive quite long. Frigates wise, their single target firepower is amazing. They are glass cannons though
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nanostrike on June 15, 2013, 04:17:48 PM
    I use brawlers as small fire support platforms for larger brawls (brawlers, get it?), park them behind cruisers or destroyers with either full anti armor for finishing (dual chaingun and dual LAG) or full anti shield to give your big ships an edge (all needlers if possible, dual HAC and DLAC otherwise)

    They aren't meant for small frigate fights, I'll give it that, they're more like pocket destroyers (all the firing profile of the head of a hammerhead with universals instead of missiles to boot, just no PD)

    I mostly do Frigate-Level skirmishes, so I guess that's why I find them useless.  Against Frigates, they're almost pointless to have, because they just get kited and destroyed.

    But I suppose against bigger ships, they could do some serious damage against an overloaded target.



    Omens are far superior in the support role, though.  Not only do they use the EMP on missiles, but they frequently fly behind enemy shield arcs and EMP capital ships, bringing down weapons and flaming out engines.  Not to mention that they're fast (Seeing a pattern here?  Fast ships, excluding the Hound, are almost always superior to the slower ones...), have good shields (Another pattern here...), and can pack decent firepower.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Megas on June 15, 2013, 07:19:29 PM
    About auto-resolve:  I *ABUSE* this feature mercilessly (as in EVERY fight after gaining some ships), for without it, my level soft cap would be in the low 30's, instead of the mid-40's to low-50's.  I can max Leadership and Technology, assemble a fleet that can win all auto-resolved battles against everything including system defense fleets, then max out combat after the power leveling session.

    If auto-resolve must go, I like to see experience gains from combat skyrocket to make level grinding less of a chore.  Even if auto-resolve stays, taking time to fight yourself should grant a massive experience bonus to discourage the use of auto-resolve for the sole purpose of power leveling.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BillyRueben on June 15, 2013, 07:29:38 PM
    Spoiler
    About auto-resolve:  I *ABUSE* this feature mercilessly (as in EVERY fight after gaining some ships), for without it, my level soft cap would be in the low 30's, instead of the mid-40's to low-50's.  I can max Leadership and Technology, assemble a fleet that can win all auto-resolved battles against everything including system defense fleets, then max out combat after the power leveling session.

    If auto-resolve must go, I like to see experience gains from combat skyrocket to make level grinding less of a chore.  Even if auto-resolve stays, taking time to fight yourself should grant a massive experience bonus to discourage the use of auto-resolve for the sole purpose of power leveling.
    [close]

    Chances are there are going to be other ways of leveling up without combat. This was something that always bothered me in Mount & Blade: Why do I get better at trading after killing people? It makes no sense.

    Besides, auto-resolve isn't a fun feature, it is a solution to a symptom.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Megas on June 15, 2013, 07:35:29 PM
    Auto-resolve is not fun, but neither is powerlessness from lack of levels.  Auto-resolve abuse is the lesser of two evils for me.

    I hope fighting everything as it is now will remain viable, though seeing alternative non-combat options would be nice for those less bloodthirsty.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thaago on June 15, 2013, 10:18:40 PM
    Hmm I'm in a very different position from Megas - I hardly ever auto (when a tiny fleet suicides me is pretty much it). Then again, I see the first few (15?) levels to be the only really fun parts of the game atm, and I don't think I've ever gotten past 35. Until there is more to do in the game (and the AI gets skills as well) I don't really see the point.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on June 16, 2013, 02:00:03 AM
    If auto-resolve must go, I like to see experience gains from combat skyrocket to make level grinding less of a chore.  Even if auto-resolve stays, taking time to fight yourself should grant a massive experience bonus to discourage the use of auto-resolve for the sole purpose of power leveling.
    I hope fighting everything as it is now will remain viable, though seeing alternative non-combat options would be nice for those less bloodthirsty.

    First of all, welcome to the forum Megas!

    I'd expect the role of combat in the overall campaign to change a lot. What you have now is indeed more or less a grind fest, all you can do is slay one fleet after the other and level up your character.

    In the finished campaign combat will probably not even be worth it by itself, you are likely to lose money if you just attack a well armed enemy fleet without ulterior motive.
    That's not to say that you can't focus on combat, there might well be occupation as mercenary or headhunter where other factions pay you to fight certain fights. As a pirate you'd probably focus on trade convoys and such, avoiding military as best you can.
    Or you could invest in your own lucrative assets and then fight in order to protect them.

    The point is, the individual battles will be rarer, matter more and the overall combat will thus feel much less grindy.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Megas on June 16, 2013, 06:58:52 AM
    I have the most fun at the endgame, at the level 45+ range, smashing big fleets with a varied combination of overpowered ships.  I just wish there were more big fleets aside from Hegemony System Defense Fleets (Tri-Tachyon Security Detachments are not big enough).

    I dislike early game because you start with junk equipment, limited hullmods, and too few OP to get everything you need.  Simulator (and some missions) can replicate early game conditions very well, but cannot replicate big fleet battles beyond that part of the game.  I can see early game being a bit fun, where you need to think a little to survive.  It is just too low powered for my tastes.

    I hope the finished game will not punish you for excessive fighting, aside from making new enemies I wanted to fight anyway.  Non-combat stuff are the grinding, um... means to the fun stuff - fighting.  My plan for the game is to build up everything I need, declare war on the ENTIRE sector, fight everything, and win.  Why fight everything?  I get the most variety of opponents when all are the enemy.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BrickedKeyboard on June 16, 2013, 08:27:02 AM
    Alex, are you the only developer working on the next patch?  Do you have other projects going on besides Starfarer? 
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Plasmatic on June 16, 2013, 08:34:15 AM
    I have the most fun at the endgame, at the level 45+ range, smashing big fleets with a varied combination of overpowered ships.  I just wish there were more big fleets aside from Hegemony System Defense Fleets (Tri-Tachyon Security Detachments are not big enough).

    I dislike early game because you start with junk equipment, limited hullmods, and too few OP to get everything you need.  Simulator (and some missions) can replicate early game conditions very well, but cannot replicate big fleet battles beyond that part of the game.  I can see early game being a bit fun, where you need to think a little to survive.  It is just too low powered for my tastes.

    I hope the finished game will not punish you for excessive fighting, aside from making new enemies I wanted to fight anyway.  Non-combat stuff are the grinding, um... means to the fun stuff - fighting.  My plan for the game is to build up everything I need, declare war on the ENTIRE sector, fight everything, and win.  Why fight everything?  I get the most variety of opponents when all are the enemy.

    Have you tried http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=1799.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=1799.0) or http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6053.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6053.0)

    I prefer Exerelin myself, it gives the game a much needed dynamic campaign outside of combat where you can take over and lose stations to other factions.. And there are plenty of overpowered ships in that mod to play with, Personal favorite is the Neutrino Unsung Flagship.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nanostrike on June 16, 2013, 08:45:13 AM
    The game is built around it's excellent combat engine.  It needs to keep fighting fun.


    I'll agree that the early-game kinda sucks.  Being a single ship means that you have to run from almost everything until you get a couple kills, level up a few times, and can buy a ship that doesn't suck (IE: Usually a Tri-Tachyon one...).

    I have fun in the late-game.  The mid-game kinda gets stale for me, though.  Unless I delay my good level-ups by "Wasting" points to increase my FP, I'm stuck with a tiny fleet and due to simple numbers, I can't take on the bigger fleets and have the epic battles I want.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Blips on June 16, 2013, 03:44:57 PM
    Discussing early-game and late-game is pointless as the current game is missing much of what the final game will have (trade, industry, etc).
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ArkAngel on June 16, 2013, 05:35:39 PM
    Alex, are you the only developer working on the next patch?  Do you have other projects going on besides Starfarer? 

    I think he's the only one coding the game itself, and also pretty sure that he is only working on starsector.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Pelhamds on June 17, 2013, 01:36:53 AM
    Alex, are you the only developer working on the next patch?  Do you have other projects going on besides Starfarer? 

    I think he's the only one coding the game itself, and also pretty sure that he is only working on starsector.

    Look at the Credits....

    Alex Mosolov - dev and game design
    David Baumgart - art game design
    Ivaylo Kovatchev - lore game design coding
    Matthew Steele - sound
    Stian Stark - sound,music
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ArkAngel on June 17, 2013, 04:38:55 AM
    Alex, are you the only developer working on the next patch?  Do you have other projects going on besides Starfarer? 

    I think he's the only one coding the game itself, and also pretty sure that he is only working on starsector.

    Look at the Credits....


    Alex Mosolov - dev and game design
    David Baumgart - art game design
    Ivaylo Kovatchev - lore game design coding
    Matthew Steele - sound
    Stian Stark - sound,music


    I didn't know that Ivaylo did coding and I totally forgot about the credits.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on June 17, 2013, 04:58:43 AM
    Well then, we seem to be through with the discussion about the latest patchnotes. Closed for now.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 11, 2013, 02:53:01 PM
    Updated.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: icepick37 on July 11, 2013, 02:59:34 PM
    WHOO!

    So wait, do fighters affect travel? Do they have travel drives?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: FloW on July 11, 2013, 03:01:51 PM
    Are you sure that's still just the jump from 0.54 to 0.6? It seems more like 0.54 to 0.7 to me.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 11, 2013, 03:03:45 PM
    Ok, so if every patch ticks us 0.01... 0.51, 0.52, 0.53, 0.54.... And now we're going to 0.6....Does that mean 6 major overhauls~?.... 0.55, CR... 0.56, fighter rework... 0.57, multi-sector travel..... So what's 0.58 through to 0.6?  :P
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Upgradecap on July 11, 2013, 03:05:39 PM
    Am i allowed to smash my keyboard for this occasion?

    no?


    ...


    I'll find my own way out, thank you gothars.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 11, 2013, 03:10:10 PM
    So wait, do fighters affect travel? Do they have travel drives?

    Presumably, they either go into hangars or just go alongside other ships (that actually activated the wormhole). Or they just aren't any different than ships in this regard.

    Fighter travel is really more affected by having supplies for upkeep. Once that's taken care of, bothering with other requirements seems a bit petty (hence, hangar space being removed altogether).

    Are you sure that's still just the jump from 0.54 to 0.6? It seems more like 0.54 to 0.7 to me.
    Ok, so if every patch ticks us 0.01... 0.51, 0.52, 0.53, 0.54.... And now we're going to 0.6....Does that mean 6 major overhauls~?.... 0.55, CR... 0.56, fighter rework... 0.57, multi-sector travel..... So what's 0.58 through to 0.6?  :P

    I wouldn't worry about the version numbers too much :) They're fairly random; about the only thing you can rely on is they'll keep going up.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Decer304 on July 11, 2013, 03:14:49 PM
    I knew that there would be a surprise for the wait. A whole new sector to play in. XD
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 11, 2013, 03:17:45 PM
    Well, that seemed to have made people's day (http://scr.hu/0zoz/dncm5) over on the starsector chat.

    Now for the rumour mills, speculation mills and other general "What if?" mills to kick it into overdrive.  :P
    I think I'll just wait for the blog.

    EDIT:
    Ninja'd.
    Nothing to add, though.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ValkyriaL on July 11, 2013, 03:19:52 PM
    TIME TO DOMINATE THE STAR CLUSTER! ENGAGE WARP DRIVES!
    Spoiler
    (http://i.imgur.com/izA6Juh.jpg)
    [close]
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 11, 2013, 03:23:52 PM
    I knew that there would be a surprise for the wait. A whole new sector to play in. XD

    Pet peeve: there is only one Sector. There are many star systems.

    ... I suspect this is a losing battle, though. The other day, Ivaylo called it a sector. /aneurism
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: leonvision on July 11, 2013, 03:26:23 PM
    so will we be getting this soon, or soon(TM)? if you know what i mean.

    either way, nice to see a update on the development, definitely didnt expect to get more star systems on this update.

    edit: sorry, someone had to ask, im getting anxious, it's been...half a year since the last update
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: arcibalde on July 11, 2013, 03:32:39 PM
    So another Star System  ;D


    Finally it begins!  ;D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thaago on July 11, 2013, 03:36:10 PM
    Changes as of July 11, 2013

    Hyperspace:
    • Jump points/wormholes for travel between star system and hyperspace
    • Travel through hyperspace to another system, same as in-system travel
    • Added new star system ("Askonia")
    • More details to come in the form of further patch notes and/or blog post

    Yeeeeees!!

    I don't suppose its ready enough to release an API? I think I speak for every single person here when I say that I have like 5 new star systems I want to make.

    Quote
    Fighter mechanics changes
      ...
      • Fighter wings can not be lost if there are any ships with a flight deck in the fleet
      • Without a ship with a flight deck, fighter wing losses can not be replaced even out-of-combat
      • Damaged fighters are repaired immediately (and at no cost), regardless of whether a flight deck is available
      [/li]
      [li]Hangar space removed[/li]


    I'm glad the hangar space is gone - it would feel weird given how much fighters rely on carriers. Will the ships who had hangars be getting any buffs? The Vigilance and Hammerhead come to mind as ships that really benefited from supporting fighters.

    Quote
    CR-related:
    • Weapons/engines being disable no longer affects CR. Instead, taking hull damage does.

    Does this include armor damage?

    Quote
    Miscellaneous:
      ...
      • Added "maximum burn" stat to ships; determines travel speed
        • Lowest value in fleet is used
        • No penalty for having many ships
          • Temporarily removed "Coordinated Maneuvers" skill
        • Added maximum travel speed to fleet tooltip in travel screen
    Huh. Well ok then, can't say I mind :D

    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 11, 2013, 03:41:48 PM
    TIME TO DOMINATE THE STAR CLUSTER! ENGAGE WARP DRIVES!
    Spoiler
    (http://i.imgur.com/izA6Juh.jpg)
    [close]

    Off-topic:
    Ooh, the ramming potential of that,  :P



    On-topic:
    CR-related:
    • Weapons/engines being disable no longer affects CR. Instead, taking hull damage does.

    Does this include armor damage?



    Do frigates still "wear out" after a while in battle even with this new CR mechanic? I think this new way makes much more sense than a frigate's crew just falling asleep at the wheel after a couple minutes. Come on, men, stop drinking all that vodka and rum. Ugh. Those damn green rookies, what am I gonna do with them?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on July 11, 2013, 03:48:32 PM

    Hyperspace:

    Crazy Eddie points/wormholes for travel between star system and hyperspace
    Travel through hyperspace to another system, same as in-system travel
    Added new star system ("Askonia")
    More details to come in the form of further patch notes and/or blog post[/list]

     :D


    Will the hyperspace system be some kind of placeholder or are you aiming straight for the final implementation (with room for changes of course)?


    Ships delivered to stations will randomly replace ships already at the station if the total number exceeds 50, items delivered to stations will randomly replace stacks already present at station if the total number exceeds 100
    Ensures the inventory doesn't stagnate

    Potential problem: A ship you are saving money for gets replaced before you can buy it. Frustrating.
    Maybe add the option to "reserve" the ship so the station keeps it in stock?


    Added "maximum burn" stat to ships; determines travel speed
    Lowest value in fleet is used
    No penalty for having many ships
    Hangar space removed

    I very much like these simplifications.

    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 11, 2013, 03:57:33 PM
    I don't suppose its ready enough to release an API? I think I speak for every single person here when I say that I have like 5 new star systems I want to make.

    Not quite. It's close to it, but not quite - still adding/changing things.

    On a high level, though: you create JumpPointAPIs using Factory, and then place 'em inside a system. There's a method to auto-generate destination points for those in hyperspace, once you're done defining the system. Or you can do it all manually.

    I'm glad the hangar space is gone - it would feel weird given how much fighters rely on carriers. Will the ships who had hangars be getting any buffs? The Vigilance and Hammerhead come to mind as ships that really benefited from supporting fighters.

    No buffs. I don't think stuff is balanced finely enough to where a relatively minor change like that warrants "making up" for. One of these days, I'll get around to a balancing pass on ships, though :)

    Does this include armor damage?

    No - that'd be a bit harsh to ships that rely more on armor.


    Do frigates still "wear out" after a while in battle even with this new CR mechanic? I think this new way makes much more sense than a frigate's crew just falling asleep at the wheel after a couple minutes. Come on, men, stop drinking all that vodka and rum. Ugh. Those damn green rookies, what am I gonna do with them?

    Yes, this is totally unrelated. As far as frigate CR wearing down, look at it as system stresses - much like, say, running a car a too high an RPM for too long.


    Will the hyperspace system be some kind of placeholder or are you aiming straight for the final implementation (with room for changes of course)?

    Aiming for doing it "right", but perhaps not feature-complete. And, like you said, with room for changes. I feel good about the framework, though.

    Ships delivered to stations will randomly replace ships already at the station if the total number exceeds 50, items delivered to stations will randomly replace stacks already present at station if the total number exceeds 100
    Ensures the inventory doesn't stagnate

    Potential problem: A ship you are saving money for gets replaced before you can buy it. Frustrating.
    Maybe add the option to "reserve" the ship so the station keeps it in stock?

    Yeah, that occurred to me. Write it off as "someone else bought it" :) I don't think the game should necessarily provide these kinds of guarantees, or ensure the success of your actions. Want to make sure you get that ship? Better hurry. On the flip side, there are FAR more ship and fighter deliveries.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Zaphide on July 11, 2013, 04:56:26 PM
    Wow very cool :) (and not just the extra system!)

    From your comment on no API for systems does this mean we (modders) will just have the two to play with? Not complaining at all btw, I was quite happy with one! Haha!

    How does it handle *stuff* happening in the system your not in? As in, does everything (fleets, spawnpoints) keep running their advance()? Or does it pause and then 'catch up' when the player switches over?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: PCCL on July 11, 2013, 04:59:09 PM
    oh ****, so that's what you been up to... nice!

    is Askonia also manually defined? Or are we going to procedural generation already?

    also this is probably gonna be covered by a blog in a bit but I feel like asking anyway: How does the hyperspace work? Do you go into a wormhole to get to a "interstellar map" and then it's intra-system style traveling from there?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: phyrex on July 11, 2013, 05:18:15 PM
    argh, my mind is melting from the awesomeness
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Decer304 on July 11, 2013, 05:23:19 PM
    So, with the hyperspace travel, is there any use for Fuel? or has it been removed?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: phyrex on July 11, 2013, 05:39:11 PM
    So, with the hyperspace travel, is there any use for Fuel? or has it been removed?

    true that ! now with cross-system travel, the fuel has finally a reason to exist !
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 11, 2013, 05:57:34 PM
    From your comment on no API for systems does this mean we (modders) will just have the two to play with? Not complaining at all btw, I was quite happy with one! Haha!

    Oh no, I just meant it's not quite ready to be shared right now (via javadoc on the web). It'll absolutely be moddable in the 0.6a release; the second system is implemented the way a mod would do it, jump points (and related interactions) are moddable, etc.


    How does it handle *stuff* happening in the system your not in? As in, does everything (fleets, spawnpoints) keep running their advance()? Or does it pause and then 'catch up' when the player switches over?

    At the moment, it runs the other stuff with 10x the step size, staggered. (So, location A might run in one frame, location B in the next, etc.) The current location you're in, obviously, updates every frame.

    Will have to see how that holds up when there are more systems, and more things going on :)


    is Askonia also manually defined? Or are we going to procedural generation already?

    Manual. There's nothing stopping procedural generation, just don't see much of a reason for it since, as of now, there's just not much you can DO with a new system.

    also this is probably gonna be covered by a blog in a bit but I feel like asking anyway: How does the hyperspace work? Do you go into a wormhole to get to a "interstellar map" and then it's intra-system style traveling from there?

    Correct.

    So, with the hyperspace travel, is there any use for Fuel? or has it been removed?

    Going to add it in and see how it feels. Probably won't tweak it too much after that until the Sector takes shape as a whole.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 11, 2013, 05:59:16 PM
    Multi-systems. :) Excellent work!

    expect my return...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Grug on July 11, 2013, 06:34:50 PM
    newsystemnewsystemnewsystemnewsystemnewsystemnewsystemnewsystemnewsystem
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ciago92 on July 11, 2013, 09:50:43 PM
    freaking awesome as always! excellent timing as I was just getting back into playing it after a month away lol

    Soontm can't come soon enough!!

    also, love the mothballed ships in convoys thingy! I don't know if you noticed my suggestion personally, but it makes me really happy that it worked out regardless. now you can (almost) be a complete wanderer who never stops at stations (still need a way to acquire personnel)

    also appreciate the removal of hangar space, never made a whole lot of sense to me
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Blips on July 11, 2013, 10:08:00 PM
    Great to see the new additions for the upcoming update.

    So it sounds like there will be two methods of travel between systems: wormholes and jumping. I'm guessing wormholes are naturally occurring phenomenon - are hyperspace jumps dependent upon "jump gates" or something similar, or can ships just jump independently more like star wars? I'm curious to know if there will be a way of locking down a system and preventing ships from jumping in or out.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Histidine on July 11, 2013, 10:10:34 PM
    You know all these cool changes only make us sad because we cannot play them, right?  :'(

    (just kidding, take your time Alex)

    Quote
    Temporarily removed "Coordinated Maneuvers" skill
    There goes an easy +25 FP  :(
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Doom101 on July 11, 2013, 10:57:31 PM
    brainmetling.. oh god im already losing the ability to write.

    I presume if we can completely define a system, we being modders, we can make it so a particular faction only shows up in one system?

    my slightly melty brain looks forward to any more news or blogs.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: echosierraalpha on July 11, 2013, 11:00:42 PM
     :o *pinches self* nope, not a dream~ *celebrates*
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: naufrago on July 11, 2013, 11:05:26 PM
    Just read the latest patch notes. The news about multiple systems is a nice surprise. Hoping we'll be able to test it out soon!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Sproginator on July 12, 2013, 12:16:13 AM
    Oh my holy *** on a stick yes!

    Thankyou for the new patchnotes, I now have some reading to do on break, expect a summary here
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: PCCL on July 12, 2013, 02:09:26 AM
    can AI fleets be made to go between systems yet?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Upgradecap on July 12, 2013, 04:33:17 AM
    I'd just like to know - how easy is it to implement a new system via mods right now, alex? And how straight-forward is that part of the code?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Chronosfear on July 12, 2013, 04:59:34 AM
    Every patchnotes, I think : "that is the best patch ever" ,and every time i´m proven wrong.
    so *...* awesome !

    thank you!


    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 12, 2013, 05:06:12 AM
    Will AI Fleets be able to persue the player through wormholes or Jump Points to other systems?  Can the AI Fleets even use the wormholes or Jump Points?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on July 12, 2013, 06:33:23 AM
    Please don't wait too long with a blogpost about hyperspace Alex, I can ....barely.....contain ...all the..........questions!.....
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: silentstormpt on July 12, 2013, 06:50:52 AM
    Oh mai, ill have a lot of work to do then:

    its a BIG image, u were warned.
    Spoiler
    (http://www.star-control.com/files/Starmaps/07.png)
    [close]
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 12, 2013, 07:41:28 AM
    I see your avatar is the exact opposite of that, silent. ;D

    Moar hyperspace!  You know we all want it, Alex. ;)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: phyrex on July 12, 2013, 07:42:28 AM
    Oh mai, ill have a lot of work to do then:

    its a BIG image, u were warned.
    Spoiler
    (http://www.star-control.com/files/Starmaps/07.png)
    [close]

    jeebus  :o
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xanderh on July 12, 2013, 07:47:20 AM
    You know all these cool changes only make us sad because we cannot play them, right?  :'(

    (just kidding, take your time Alex)

    Quote
    Temporarily removed "Coordinated Maneuvers" skill
    There goes an easy +25 FP  :(
    Fleet point have been removed from the game ;)


    :o *pinches self* nope, not a dream~ *celebrates*
    You can feel physical pain in dreams. I know from experience. It feels weird, but it is definitely pain.


    Looking forward to the patch, and I'm hoping it will be out before August, because it will be a busy month. I've got saints row 4, Star Citizen alpha, and school starting in middle/end of August, and I'd prefer to not be completely swamped in awesome.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Cycerin on July 12, 2013, 07:51:39 AM
    How much is the hyperspace in SS going to resemble the one from Star Control II? Surprised at how feature-heavy this patch is becoming, but I guess it's shaping up to be quite worth the wait.

    *groans* guess it's time to get back on the modding wagon soon!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: MechaLenin on July 12, 2013, 08:21:35 AM
    Hi,
    Long time lurker here. I was shaping up to write a post saying something like:

    "Alex, I love your game, great changes in 0.6, but FFS RELEASE PATCH ALREADY, you can't make everything perfect etc. etc."

    And here we are, long awaited inter-system travel is finally in.  ;D Rather unexpectedly, I might add.

    Both thumbs up and cheers for all the great work.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ValkyriaL on July 12, 2013, 08:51:49 AM
    How much is the hyperspace in SS going to resemble the one from Star Control II? Surprised at how feature-heavy this patch is becoming, but I guess it's shaping up to be quite worth the wait.

    *groans* guess it's time to get back on the modding wagon soon!

    Yup, we finally have to start putting some effort in again. ::)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 12, 2013, 10:38:50 AM
    So it sounds like there will be two methods of travel between systems: wormholes and jumping. I'm guessing wormholes are naturally occurring phenomenon - are hyperspace jumps dependent upon "jump gates" or something similar, or can ships just jump independently more like star wars? I'm curious to know if there will be a way of locking down a system and preventing ships from jumping in or out.

    That's more an issue of terminology, I'm using "wormhole" and "jump point" somewhat interchangeably. Ships have to use a jump point to transition, though that doesn't imply that it's a man-made construction - rather, a naturally-occuring phenomenon.


    I presume if we can completely define a system, we being modders, we can make it so a particular faction only shows up in one system?

    Yes.



    can AI fleets be made to go between systems yet?
    Will AI Fleets be able to persue the player through wormholes or Jump Points to other systems?  Can the AI Fleets even use the wormholes or Jump Points?

    Right this second? No. It's on my short-term todo, though.


    I'd just like to know - how easy is it to implement a new system via mods right now, alex? And how straight-forward is that part of the code?

    No much more complex than defining Corvus. It's basically the same thing, except there's a step where you define where in hyperspace the system goes.


    Please don't wait too long with a blogpost about hyperspace Alex, I can ....barely.....contain ...all the..........questions!.....

    Probably going to wait until I can include some screenshots.


    How much is the hyperspace in SS going to resemble the one from Star Control II?

    A lot. It's fair to say SC2 is a significant influence here.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Upgradecap on July 12, 2013, 10:39:36 AM
    I'd just like to know - how easy is it to implement a new system via mods right now, alex? And how straight-forward is that part of the code?

    Just requoting this, incase it got missed :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: sirboomalot on July 12, 2013, 10:41:51 AM


    I'd just like to know - how easy is it to implement a new system via mods right now, alex? And how straight-forward is that part of the code?

    No much more complex than defining Corvus. It's basically the same thing, except there's a step where you define where in hyperspace the system goes.


    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thaago on July 12, 2013, 11:01:33 AM
    Looking over the notes again, I'm incredibly excited by InteractionDialogPlugin. Are these going to be fully moddable, ie when the player interacts with something we get to set the choices that pop up and what functions they call? That and the new systems are going to make the modding scene absolutely explode!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 12, 2013, 11:31:30 AM
    Yeah, fully moddable. For reference, all the interactions/mechanics around combat are implemented as an InteractionDialogPlugin. A mod can register CampaignPlugins that return implementations of IDP for various entity interactions (planets, fleets, asteroids, etc), with the highest-priority one being used.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Faiter119 on July 12, 2013, 11:35:32 AM
    Cant wait for this to come out! Finally I can start a new campaign. The one I have now is so repetitive and stompy that I don't even bother anymore.

    This version has been around for a really long time, the last release was in December :s
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Upgradecap on July 12, 2013, 11:49:23 AM


    I'd just like to know - how easy is it to implement a new system via mods right now, alex? And how straight-forward is that part of the code?

    No much more complex than defining Corvus. It's basically the same thing, except there's a step where you define where in hyperspace the system goes.



    Yep, got ninja'd by alex just as i was posting. Oh well, that gives me my answer.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Talkie Toaster on July 12, 2013, 02:44:59 PM
    All of these questions might be answered in the blog post, but...

    So it sounds like there will be two methods of travel between systems: wormholes and jumping. I'm guessing wormholes are naturally occurring phenomenon - are hyperspace jumps dependent upon "jump gates" or something similar, or can ships just jump independently more like star wars? I'm curious to know if there will be a way of locking down a system and preventing ships from jumping in or out.
    That's more an issue of terminology, I'm using "wormhole" and "jump point" somewhat interchangeably. Ships have to use a jump point to transition, though that doesn't imply that it's a man-made construction - rather, a naturally-occuring phenomenon.
    So fluffwise, how does this tie into the gates? Can we only access a local 'bubble' of hyperspace through wormholes and need gates to get out into the wider hyperspace pool?

    Can we build smaller gates to create artificial wormholes into systems that don't have any natural exits? Will all/some systems have multiple exit points, so 1-exit ones are easier to defend?
    Actually, if we can move around hyperspace like the system map will we be able to intercept other fleets eventually or is that not possible?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: naufrago on July 12, 2013, 05:10:12 PM
    I plan to hold my questions for now. Right now we know barely anything, which means the questions we'd be asking at this point will most likely be explained in the upcoming blog post on the subject. Once we have a better understanding of how it will work, we can ask better, informed questions to fill in the gaps.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 12, 2013, 05:41:35 PM
    All of these questions might be answered in the blog post, but...

    -snip
    -snipsnip-
    -snipsnipsnip-
    From the sounds of it, travel will work much like a game I've been shown recently, Freelancer. Naturally occuring wormholes that lead to other systems which ships can utilise.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 12, 2013, 06:18:31 PM
    So fluffwise, how does this tie into the gates?

    Gates just take you somewhere that's really far, even through hyperspace.


    Can we build smaller gates to create artificial wormholes into systems that don't have any natural exits? Will all/some systems have multiple exit points, so 1-exit ones are easier to defend?

    We'll see. That kind of stuff is under consideration.

    Actually, if we can move around hyperspace like the system map will we be able to intercept other fleets eventually or is that not possible?

    Yeah, I'd rather expect that's how it's going to work. That's how it works right now.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 12, 2013, 06:20:26 PM
    So, how will the lore fare with the update?  In the base lore, it said that the, "gates were silent."

    :P
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Ember on July 12, 2013, 06:32:23 PM
    So, how will the lore fare with the update?  In the base lore, it said that the, "gates were silent."

    :P

    gates as i understand it are links between sectors, while wormholes are in sector only, unless there is a really long chain of wormholes leading out of sector
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 12, 2013, 06:43:30 PM
    "local" travel amongst systems simply requires the use of these wormholes. "non-local" travel amongst sectors requires Mass Effect-esque relays to throw you across the galaxy. The gates don't work, but the wormholes do because wormholes are natural and not man-made.
    You know, I need to dig into the lore, is the situation with the gates something like EVE Online's lore of the EVE Gate? The EVE Gate linked back to the known galaxy after everything there was explored and settled. Settlers flooded the EVE galaxy until some sort of unknown event caused the gate to collapse, leaving tons of un sustainable colonies in the EVE galaxy stranded. As the colonies fell apart with only a few left with the resources to become sustainable, it took millennia before the settlers could reach a stage where they were capable of space travel again. Knowledge of the Milky Way that lay on the other side of the closed gate was lost by the time the colonies reached the timeframe that the game plays in, all the 4 Empires know is that it was what brought them to the EVE galaxy.

    Is there something similar with Starsector? Was the Sector cut off by an event, leaving everyone stranded and over time the knowledge of how to use much of the technology was lost to the peoples?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 12, 2013, 06:56:38 PM
    http://fractalsoftworks.com/2011/02/21/the-state-of-affairs/

    Yup. :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: sdmike1 on July 12, 2013, 08:35:10 PM
    Duck ya, that is all.

    Other than the fact that I love the way the game is coming together.

    "local" travel amongst systems simply requires the use of these wormholes. "non-local" travel amongst sectors requires Mass Effect-esque relays to throw you across the galaxy. The gates don't work, but the wormholes do because wormholes are natural and not man-made.
    You know, I need to dig into the lore, is the situation with the gates something like EVE Online's lore of the EVE Gate? The EVE Gate linked back to the known galaxy after everything there was explored and settled. Settlers flooded the EVE galaxy until some sort of unknown event caused the gate to collapse, leaving tons of un sustainable colonies in the EVE galaxy stranded. As the colonies fell apart with only a few left with the resources to become sustainable, it took millennia before the settlers could reach a stage where they were capable of space travel again. Knowledge of the Milky Way that lay on the other side of the closed gate was lost by the time the colonies reached the timeframe that the game plays in, all the 4 Empires know is that it was what brought them to the EVE galaxy.

    Is there something similar with Starsector? Was the Sector cut off by an event, leaving everyone stranded and over time the knowledge of how to use much of the technology was lost to the peoples?

    Kinda, nobody has the know-how to make new tech (think technological regression) but they know how to use what they have although that varies planet to planet. :)  The link that The Soldier posted has basicly all of the backstory for the game.
    http://fractalsoftworks.com/2011/02/21/the-state-of-affairs/
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 13, 2013, 04:39:07 AM
    Just want to get this straight, (I'll do it with an example) so there's two wings of Talons, a Lasher frigate, and a Condor carrier.  I can't destroy the Talon wings so I decide to go right ahead and destroy the Condor.  I destroy one Talon wing (that is, all 4 fighters) and the entire enemy fleet decides to retreat.  On the campaign map, will that enemy fleet now have just a Lasher and a single Talon wing?  Or is that second Talon wing somehow still alive?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on July 13, 2013, 05:34:53 AM
    Just want to get this straight, (I'll do it with an example) so there's two wings of Talons, a Lasher frigate, and a Condor carrier.  I can't destroy the Talon wings so I decide to go right ahead and destroy the Condor.  I destroy one Talon wing (that is, all 4 fighters) and the entire enemy fleet decides to retreat.  On the campaign map, will that enemy fleet now have just a Lasher and a single Talon wing?  Or is that second Talon wing somehow still alive?

    If the losses happen in the order you describe, the enemy ends up with a Lasher and a Talon wing.

    But if you take out a Talon wing first and then destroy the Condor before it finishes reproducing the first replacement Talon, it's not clear what happens. I guess the Talon wing is still lost?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thana on July 13, 2013, 07:17:02 AM
    Well, I'll be! Another system coming up!

    I'll be curious to see how the new fighter mechanics work out in practice, as well.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 13, 2013, 07:51:02 AM
    I'd go for the Talon wing is lost - just because you've got a hull with a half-built engine and no weapons doesn't mean you're still on the field. ;)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nanostrike on July 13, 2013, 11:43:52 AM
    I must've missed the whole "Frigates now lose CR after a certain period of time" thing.  I really don't like that idea.  I get that ti's to reduce the kiting BS that goes on, but I almost exclusively pilot Frigates and if they start to burn out in anything but a small-time, quick battle, then they might as well just be fighters that can't repair.

    I could see this for a lot of Tri-Tachyon ships, as they'd need it.

    But for a lot of slower Frigates like Lashers and Brawlers that aren't fast enough to really kite anyway and that rely on staying near more powerful ships in the fleet for the majority of the battle to survive, this will be very crippling.


    How long are we talking, here?  Cuz if it's a really long time (Basically only coming into play when someone is taking forever trying to kite a huge fleet), it might not be too bad.

    Will there be different timers for different ships?  Will there be skills to make it less impactful on a player's ship?


    I need more info to really draw a judgement, but this one makes me feel really iffy.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 13, 2013, 11:59:27 AM
    I feel pretty iffy about it too, but I guess it's just something to deal with. I don't think it's likely to change. If it's moddable, it could simply be modded out of existence with it either taking so long to kick in or the effects so minor that it's basically negated. I'm already pretty iffy about CR simply because of getting caught in a massive scrap, those annoying moments when you're locked into multiple battles because you have that -50% speed after a battle which stops you from getting clear of the other 4-5 fleets. Sitting through all of those with the new CR, you're probably guaranteed a loss regardless of good conduct in the previous battles because reasons. And you will also HAVE to sit through them all, because autoresolve is disappearing as well.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: FloW on July 13, 2013, 12:27:54 PM
    How long are we talking, here?  Cuz if it's a really long time (Basically only coming into play when someone is taking forever trying to kite a huge fleet), it might not be too bad.

    Will there be different timers for different ships?  Will there be skills to make it less impactful on a player's ship?

    I need more info to really draw a judgement, but this one makes me feel really iffy.

    There's actually a lot more info on this in the thread about CR (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5643.0) if I remember right.
    There will be different timers for different ships.
    And from the front page:
    Quote
    The Combat aptitude now raises maximum CR for piloted ship instead of providing a damage bonus

    Let's just see how this will play out and start cursing it later (possibly never).
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: JT on July 13, 2013, 03:51:29 PM
    Changes as of July 11, 2013

    Hyperspace:

    Omigod omigod omigod omigod omigod...

    I think someone is going to need a broom handle to pry me off of the ceiling.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Vinya on July 13, 2013, 05:21:18 PM
    Hyperspace?

    Please tell me you have some crazy animation that is going to make me need a new CPU.

    Not to mention a new pair of undergarments...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: NuclearMoose on July 13, 2013, 07:52:07 PM
    Changes as of July 11, 2013

    Hyperspace:

    Omigod omigod omigod omigod omigod...

    I think someone is going to need a broom handle to pry me off of the ceiling.

    Someone needs to get a mop to clean my brain off the ceiling  ;D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Mattk50 on July 14, 2013, 01:27:08 AM
    Another system will be nice, but i can't imagine there being much to do yet without variable prices or mining or anything in yet.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on July 14, 2013, 04:57:08 AM
    Another system will be nice, but i can't imagine there being much to do yet without variable prices or mining or anything in yet.

    That is certainly true, I think the most interesting part will be the workings and optics of hyperspace travel.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 14, 2013, 05:47:46 AM
    My favorite part next patch will be first off, playing with the new fighter mechanics, and second off, exploring the new system! :D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BillyRueben on July 14, 2013, 06:29:40 AM
    Is there a chance we could see a new faction in the new system, or  can't you talk about that?

    Any audio changes being thrown in with this update?

    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 14, 2013, 06:46:37 AM
    Yea, there's some audio cues for "low CR due to extended deployment" and some more audio cues for when the ship starts to malfunction due to extremely low CR levels. :D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BillyRueben on July 14, 2013, 08:07:57 AM
    Yea, there's some audio cues for "low CR due to extended deployment" and some more audio cues for when the ship starts to malfunction due to extremely low CR levels. :D
    Yeah, but those aren't sexy...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 14, 2013, 08:41:20 AM
    Hearing crash bang wallop as your ship falls apart around you? The Matari live for those sounds.  :D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ArkAngel on July 14, 2013, 09:19:57 AM
    Yay hyperspace. Can't wait for the blog, have so many questions to ask.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Eternity57 on July 14, 2013, 02:07:31 PM
    Impressive patch release !!!

    Hoping it fast ;-)

    have nice vaccation time !
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: bills6693 on July 14, 2013, 06:32:02 PM
    From the sounds of it, travel will work much like a game I've been shown recently, Freelancer. Naturally occuring wormholes that lead to other systems which ships can utilise.
    In freelancer, there are two types of wormholes - naturally occuring ones and man-made ones. They do the same thing, but the man-made ones are generally in the policed areas of space while the natural ones are hidden off in dust clouds etc, often the territory of - and used by - the pirates and other 'unsavory' groups.

    Awesome game btw. Many dislike it compared to Chris Robert's other works, as it is rather arcadey etc, but taken on its own its really really fun IMHO.

    Anyway its a bit off-topic, sorry. Ontopic, awesome patch notes. Eagerly awaiting that blog post to answer many questions we all have... plus the next update! Hopefully it won't be a long wait till everything has been implemented. Since things appear to be moving on from CR to the new Hyperspace stuff, that means CR is basically done for this iteration and ready for us to try out :)

    I have to say that this has to be one of my most looked-forward to in development games. And given how much I back on Kickstarter, that's saying something! Keep up the great work :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 14, 2013, 06:46:00 PM
    Ah, Alex, have you thought of a use for Fuel yet?  There's still stacks of it laying around in the station. ;) How will fuel be used in the Hyperspace part?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 14, 2013, 06:59:59 PM
    Is there a chance we could see a new faction in the new system, or  can't you talk about that?

    :-X

    Any audio changes being thrown in with this update?

    :-X

    Hopefully it won't be a long wait till everything has been implemented. Since things appear to be moving on from CR to the new Hyperspace stuff, that means CR is basically done for this iteration and ready for us to try out :)

    There's pending UI work for logistics etc. That's probably one of the bigger humps to get over, beyond tidying stuff up and doing various assorted things. And other things. Did I mention things? There are lots of things.

    Ah, Alex, have you thought of a use for Fuel yet?  There's still stacks of it laying around in the station. ;) How will fuel be used int eh Hyperspace part?

    It'll be used, though don't expect it to be particularly important, as gameplay considerations go. That'll come later.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 14, 2013, 07:08:00 PM
    Is it something general, like you have a distance from your sector to the next sector, fuel efficiency per ship, and number of ships, things like that?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 14, 2013, 07:19:28 PM
    Well, since there's only one sector, and travel between sectors is impossible, no, it's not like that at all!

    Ahem.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 14, 2013, 07:22:03 PM
    Erm, systems. :P Sorry, name of the game got in my head! ;)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: bills6693 on July 14, 2013, 09:14:47 PM
    There's pending UI work for logistics etc. That's probably one of the bigger humps to get over, beyond tidying stuff up and doing various assorted things. And other things. Did I mention things? There are lots of things.
    Aye, understandable!

    Well best of luck working on all the things. Ha, there is so much that goes into a game that the end consumer really doesn't realise. I love that projects like this open up the process. Its also fascinating seeing how different developers use different strategies and work differently in persuit of that end goal. I have to say this is one of the better ones so far :P
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Dri on July 14, 2013, 09:31:10 PM
    7 months. Over HALF a year.

    The light is no longer at the end of the tunnel. All is darkness and void.

    Atreyu has failed to stop The Nothing. Doomed.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: PCCL on July 14, 2013, 10:09:22 PM
    seems like the wait is ending soon(tm), right now I'm just hoping this patch is more the exception than the rule from here on forward
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Reapy on July 15, 2013, 08:44:42 AM
    Hyperspace combat is totally going to have way different properties, right...right!?! :)

    Like, super flux regen, or maybe shields don't work, or everybody is slower, or, weapons that only work in hyperspace etc etc? :)

    Anyway really cool the big game is finally taking shape and the world building can begin. It will be interesting how you start dealing with systems that are 'off screen'.

    I can picture something like each system it has resource outputs and growth based on the outputs of surrounding/linked systems as you go, or perhaps there just needs to be a bit of a bit of a catch up function that can speed through several years of updates just as you are arriving at it.

    Can't wait to figure everything out again with all the changes when the next patch is released.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: phyrex on July 15, 2013, 09:10:12 AM
    Hyperspace combat is totally going to have way different properties, right...right!?! :)

    Like, super flux regen, or maybe shields don't work, or everybody is slower, or, weapons that only work in hyperspace etc etc? :)

    Anyway really cool the big game is finally taking shape and the world building can begin. It will be interesting how you start dealing with systems that are 'off screen'.

    I can picture something like each system it has resource outputs and growth based on the outputs of surrounding/linked systems as you go, or perhaps there just needs to be a bit of a bit of a catch up function that can speed through several years of updates just as you are arriving at it.

    Can't wait to figure everything out again with all the changes when the next patch is released.

    what makes you even think we can fight in hyperspace ? in almost every fictional setting, every FTL travelling alternative prevents any sort of combat completly, wether its stargate's wormhole, star wars hyperspace or star trek warp drive etc
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: icepick37 on July 15, 2013, 09:55:15 AM
    But you can force people out of hyperspace sometimes. In which case let the dueling commence!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 15, 2013, 10:37:43 AM
    @bills6693: Heheh, thanks!

    @Dri: That's quite poetic :)


    Hyperspace combat is totally going to have way different properties, right...right!?! :)

    As fun as that might sound, I think that'd be pretty terrible. Trying to have fun and somewhat-balanced combat for a wide range of properties seems like a nightmare. Never mind making the AI deal with it.


    Anyway really cool the big game is finally taking shape and the world building can begin. It will be interesting how you start dealing with systems that are 'off screen'.

    I can picture something like each system it has resource outputs and growth based on the outputs of surrounding/linked systems as you go, or perhaps there just needs to be a bit of a bit of a catch up function that can speed through several years of updates just as you are arriving at it.

    Yeah, that'll be real interesting to work out.


    what makes you even think we can fight in hyperspace ? in almost every fictional setting, every FTL travelling alternative prevents any sort of combat completly, wether its stargate's wormhole, star wars hyperspace or star trek warp drive etc

    You can fight in hyperspace. In terms of how it works, just think of it as a particularly big system, with different visuals and entities in it, but still fundamentally the same.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: bills6693 on July 15, 2013, 10:49:16 AM
    In the harrington novels, they could fight in the FTL travel mode thing. But it was completly different to normal space fighting. Had to get in close and personal with lasers (missiles didn't work), and all the shielding doesn't work, so basically it was a slaughterfest. But meant small ships could take down much bigger ones (admittedly also getting killed themselves).

    Completely off-topic though. again.

    On-topic, some hull mods or something to give ships advantages in hyperspace-fighting might be cool? Nothing to radical, just movement buffs or something of the sort.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Ember on July 15, 2013, 11:45:58 AM
    In the harrington novels, they could fight in the FTL travel mode thing. But it was completly different to normal space fighting. Had to get in close and personal with lasers (missiles didn't work), and all the shielding doesn't work, so basically it was a slaughterfest. But meant small ships could take down much bigger ones (admittedly also getting killed themselves).

    Completely off-topic though. again.

    On-topic, some hull mods or something to give ships advantages in hyperspace-fighting might be cool? Nothing to radical, just movement buffs or something of the sort.

    that was only when they were within those gravity bands, there was this one book later in the series where she took a refitted freighter to take down pirates and near the end of this book they had a battle with a pair of Haven ships in a pocket of hyperspace

    book is called Honor Among Enemies
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 15, 2013, 12:15:49 PM
    Will hyperspace fights be initiated in a similar fashion to the Trade Lanes of Freelancer, or warp destabilization in EVE? Pirates can knock out a section of the trade lane in Freelancer, forcing ships to drop out of it and wait for it to become operational again or try and flee to the next section of the lane to get back into the slipstream. In EVE, specialized Interdictors can drop warp disruption probes that destabilize the warp bubble of a ship currently in warp, dragging it out of warp in the process. Though the effect of dragging the ship out of warp can cause it to slingshot many kilometres before coming to a stop, if it remains close enough to be affected by the probe still, then the ship is left unable to warp away. This also goes for the group using the disruptor probe, they cannot warp either, nor can the Interdictor that dropped the probe. Similarly, a Heavy Interdictor can mount equipment that allows it to become the probe, projecting it's own interdiction bubble.


    TL:DR
    Will hyperspace fights happen IN hyperspace, or will ships be dragged out of hyperspace to fight in deadspace?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: phyrex on July 15, 2013, 12:33:08 PM
    Will hyperspace fights be initiated in a similar fashion to the Trade Lanes of Freelancer, or warp destabilization in EVE? Pirates can knock out a section of the trade lane in Freelancer, forcing ships to drop out of it and wait for it to become operational again or try and flee to the next section of the lane to get back into the slipstream. In EVE, specialized Interdictors can drop warp disruption probes that destabilize the warp bubble of a ship currently in warp, dragging it out of warp in the process. Though the effect of dragging the ship out of warp can cause it to slingshot many kilometres before coming to a stop, if it remains close enough to be affected by the probe still, then the ship is left unable to warp away. This also goes for the group using the disruptor probe, they cannot warp either, nor can the Interdictor that dropped the probe. Similarly, a Heavy Interdictor can mount equipment that allows it to become the probe, projecting it's own interdiction bubble.


    TL:DR
    Will hyperspace fights happen IN hyperspace, or will ships be dragged out of hyperspace to fight in deadspace?

    judging from what alex said, i think there's not gonna be any difference. its just gonna one big void where fight takes place as normal
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 15, 2013, 01:15:24 PM
    Also curious to hear the new sound effects that Stian was whipping up. IIRC, they were meant to sound less arcadey and more meaty and powerful. I can imagine that means any high-powered weapon is gonna have that ridiculous echo, like a bolt action sniper rifle in CoD (http://youtu.be/JMY9Bl2M6-U) or Battlefield (http://youtu.be/eXxlb1qq6Xo).  :P
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: silentstormpt on July 15, 2013, 04:45:27 PM
    Guessing how SC2 hyperspace worked, you must leave the outer line of the map to go into the "hyperspace map", from there its like the normal solar map but only with ALOT of stars where you can move "in warp speed" and touch the solar system you want to get in.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 15, 2013, 05:41:39 PM
    Like ME2, then?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: PCCL on July 15, 2013, 06:02:11 PM
    like ME2's in system view, not the mass relay one
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: bills6693 on July 15, 2013, 07:33:03 PM
    that was only when they were within those gravity bands, there was this one book later in the series where she took a refitted freighter to take down pirates and near the end of this book they had a battle with a pair of Haven ships in a pocket of hyperspace

    book is called Honor Among Enemies

    I remember in one book, a manticore convoy of civilian ships with a destroyer escort is attacked by a much bigger haven ship. The destroyer peels off and basically, although far outclassed by the haven ship, successfully defends the convoy (by having both ships just rip each other apart with lasers). Due to the lack of impellers, the ships are very vulnerable, and missiles don't work (since they are propelled by impeller drives).

    Don't know what book it is I'm afraid. I've read all of them, and there are a lot! They kinda meld together :P

    Yeah, you are right it was only when they were travelling in the gravity bands that they were using the warsaki sails (however its spelt). Man, is it a detailed universe he created. Shame I feel that the series is getting worse as it goes on. Will still buy the next books though :P
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gaizokubanou on July 15, 2013, 09:22:10 PM
    This has to be the most anticipated patch ever for Starsector!  So many changes! ;D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Cycerin on July 16, 2013, 06:07:10 AM
    I'm getting hyped again, and now that I had finally hunkered down for the long wait and focused on other things... curse you, Alex.

    (http://i.imgur.com/RK5wa4x.gif)

    Multi-systems out of nowhere. The more I think about it, the more I realize how hype this is getting.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Trylobot on July 16, 2013, 08:56:33 AM
    I don't know about you, but I'm hyped for hyperspace.

    (https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4124268800/hC5F05CF1/)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 16, 2013, 08:59:33 AM
    Indeed. :)

    I'm still confused how Hyperspace and travel between systems works. :P
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: vivoune on July 17, 2013, 08:59:24 AM
    silly question: why aren't patches tinier and released more often/regularly? It keeps the pace within the community, it keeps people entertained and playing, it's easier to debug. Just curious. I'm not judging nor complaining don't get me wrong. I just bought the game a few days ago so I wouldn't dare  :), it's just that 7 months without any client change seems an awful lot of time! Especially in the indie market. Is it a one man job and is it developed as a part time job? cheers!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 17, 2013, 09:33:53 AM
    It used to be like that - one every maybe 4 months, and a patch for that every maybe second month.  This one just happens to stand out like this.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: dragoon47 on July 17, 2013, 10:57:54 AM
    that was only when they were within those gravity bands, there was this one book later in the series where she took a refitted freighter to take down pirates and near the end of this book they had a battle with a pair of Haven ships in a pocket of hyperspace

    book is called Honor Among Enemies

    I remember in one book, a manticore convoy of civilian ships with a destroyer escort is attacked by a much bigger haven ship. The destroyer peels off and basically, although far outclassed by the haven ship, successfully defends the convoy (by having both ships just rip each other apart with lasers). Due to the lack of impellers, the ships are very vulnerable, and missiles don't work (since they are propelled by impeller drives).

    Don't know what book it is I'm afraid. I've read all of them, and there are a lot! They kinda meld together :P

    Yeah, you are right it was only when they were travelling in the gravity bands that they were using the warsaki sails (however its spelt). Man, is it a detailed universe he created. Shame I feel that the series is getting worse as it goes on. Will still buy the next books though :P

    A Short Victorious War.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Zaphide on July 17, 2013, 03:14:39 PM
    silly question: why aren't patches tinier and released more often/regularly? It keeps the pace within the community, it keeps people entertained and playing, it's easier to debug. Just curious. I'm not judging nor complaining don't get me wrong. I just bought the game a few days ago so I wouldn't dare  :), it's just that 7 months without any client change seems an awful lot of time! Especially in the indie market. Is it a one man job and is it developed as a part time job? cheers!

    Some things just don't make sense to release on a time frame, and are best to release just 'when it's done'.

    Perhaps if we had lots of quick, small, buggy incremental releases people would get worn out and give up until the release of 1.0 :P With significant releases spaced out a bit it gives a more stable platform to move on from.

    I think we can all agree that StarSector is one of the most polished and bug free alpha products ever, and it doesn't get like that without a significant contribution of time :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gotcha! on July 17, 2013, 03:38:48 PM
    Hear hear!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Trylobot on July 17, 2013, 04:16:05 PM
    silly question: why aren't patches tinier and released more often/regularly?

    This particular release cycle is unusually long, an outlier. Alex is cooking up something big this time around. I wouldn't characterize the development to have been this way up 'til this one.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 17, 2013, 07:17:02 PM
    Indeed, this 0.6 patch has been the longest in the making, to my experience anyway (circa 0.51).
    Lots of new stuff being introduced, lots of stuff to make the modders giddy.

    As I said some pages ago, this is all the patchnotes look like to me,

    Changes as of July 11, 2013
    • Tossed multiple systems in the mix *evil cackle*
    Changes as of May 24, 2013
    • Added some modding doohickeys
    Changes as of March 23, 2013
    • More dastardly reinventions
    Changes as of March 13, 2013
    • Reinvented Starsector
    • That is all
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: bills6693 on July 17, 2013, 07:46:12 PM
    Yeah, this particular release cycle is long. I've been around for a while (not sure what version, I think a .4something), although not on the forums much.

    I guess before, patches were like 'added new weapon and ship' or 'changed how this ship works' or 'changed some stats', or 'made minor change to battle screen, added skill tree'.

    This patch is 'took everything I'd done so far, opened up the hood, nuked the old mechanics from orbit (its the only way to be sure), then rebuild it from scratch'. Basically, he added a new thing that changed up literally everything that had gone before mechanics-wise, it seems. Before it was just tweaks - this time its just replacing the whole thing.

    While I imagine that these new mechanics will be pretty awesome, I hope the game doesn't need another major overhaul like this - it slows the whole thing down while being redone instead of just tweaked. But it is still in alpha, so understandable. I think a more regular release schedule can be expected once we get into beta. Some time in the future :P
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 17, 2013, 08:02:29 PM
    Once the game settles into the beta stage, I don't expect it to undergo any more massive overhauls. Alphas are often feature-incomplete and can go with redesigns several times before settling. By beta, most if not all features are in and it's then just adding several layers of polish.


    (its the only way to be sure)
    (http://i.imgur.com/ZfO3v.gif)

    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: vivoune on July 18, 2013, 12:56:41 AM
    Alrighty, thanks everyone! It's good to hear that this long update-free period is sort of an exception. Looking forward to all these changes and new mechanics, sometime. ^^
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on July 19, 2013, 02:34:42 PM
    Looking over the list atm... I, er, missed custom Dialogs... wow!

    So... are we going to have a method to call up docking, trade, etc. via the available functions?  Can custom buttons run custom functions?

    I.E., if we want to, say, not allow docking with un-friendly locations, can that be implemented?  Can we build things like a trigger, so that IF un-friendly, show "assault this base"; if "assault this base" clicked, THEN run (custom battle Mission) and IF during (custom battle Mission) something happens THEN set (some persistent state in Campaign)?

    If it goes that far... wow, the framework's practically built, and it's down to deciding on how to get the last stages of content generation in place!  I literally cannot wait to build multiple Systems, make it possible to talk to the AI Factions, etc.- this is incredibly exciting stuff, and the game and mods that will come from this should be amazing!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 19, 2013, 07:08:19 PM
    So... are we going to have a method to call up docking, trade, etc. via the available functions?
    ...
    I.E., if we want to, say, not allow docking with un-friendly locations, can that be implemented? 

    Haven't re-implemented the orbital station dialog via plugin yet, but it's on my list; hopefully won't run into any issues there.

    Can custom buttons run custom functions?

    The dialog plugin can configure what options are available and gets a callback whenever an option is selected. If you wanted to delve much deeper, you could also implement custom buttons (via a custom UI panel) but there are no niceties there. The API lets you bind/render loaded textures and that's about it; you'd have to process the input yourself, write your own OpenGL code for anything fancy, etc. I'd like to eventually provide support for font rendering, since that's such a pain to do otherwise, if I can get to it.


    Can we build things like a trigger, so that IF un-friendly, show "assault this base"; if "assault this base" clicked, THEN run (custom battle Mission) and IF during (custom battle Mission) something happens THEN set (some persistent state in Campaign)?

    Yeah, absolutely. One way you might do that is havimg your CampaignPlugin implementation coordinate things so that it returns a different BattleCreationPlugin if the hypothetical "assault" option is selected in your InteractionDialogPlugin implementation. When the battle is over and the game returns to the dialog, the plugin gets a callback with the results.

    As I may have mentioned elsewhere, the new battle system (post combat options, escape vs normal battle scenarios, etc) is implemented as a plugin.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Cycerin on July 22, 2013, 07:51:24 AM
    I wonder how many extra dimensions the Starsector universe has. One day it would be fun to make a 2d spacegame, like literally 2d, flatland style, where the hyperspace travel simply yanks you into 3d space. :D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: miro on July 25, 2013, 09:38:08 PM
    ;-;

    I saw this post, and thought the update had dropped. I'm sad now.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on July 26, 2013, 12:50:55 AM
    That's my cue to close the thread until the next patch note cometh.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 27, 2013, 12:24:23 PM
    Updated.

    Mostly modding-related stuff (not done with adding modding things, either, just thought I'd post what's already added.)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: FloW on July 27, 2013, 12:48:57 PM
    I didn't think I would really know what to expect from the game after the patch.

    Looking at the new modding stuff, I don't think I know what to expect from all the mods. Holy <randomDeity/randomProfanity>.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on July 27, 2013, 12:50:26 PM
    IDK what to say, other than this looks EPIC.  It's really great to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

    Can we see any examples of dialog UI implementations yet, even if it's still rough?  I think that one of the biggies that people are going to want to try hacking out ASAP is Stuff To Do With Planets and Stations.

    The Autofire AI / Ship AI stuff is huge; can't wait to try that stuff out :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 27, 2013, 12:58:45 PM
    I didn't think I would really know what to expect from the game after the patch.

    Looking at the new modding stuff, I don't think I know what to expect from all the mods. Holy <randomDeity/randomProfanity>.

    :D

    Can we see any examples of dialog UI implementations yet, even if it's still rough?  I think that one of the biggies that people are going to want to try hacking out ASAP is Stuff To Do With Planets and Stations.

    Sure - here's the one for planet interactions, that doesn't do anything other than show the planet in the visual pane and lets you leave.

    (The layout is: text panel on the left, visual panel on the right, options below. Somewhat adjustable.)

    Spoiler

    package com.fs.starfarer.api.impl.campaign;

    import java.awt.Color;
    import java.util.HashMap;
    import java.util.Map;

    import com.fs.starfarer.api.Global;
    import com.fs.starfarer.api.campaign.CampaignFleetAPI;
    import com.fs.starfarer.api.campaign.InteractionDialogAPI;
    import com.fs.starfarer.api.campaign.InteractionDialogPlugin;
    import com.fs.starfarer.api.campaign.OptionPanelAPI;
    import com.fs.starfarer.api.campaign.PlanetAPI;
    import com.fs.starfarer.api.campaign.TextPanelAPI;
    import com.fs.starfarer.api.campaign.VisualPanelAPI;
    import com.fs.starfarer.api.campaign.JumpPointAPI.JumpDestination;
    import com.fs.starfarer.api.combat.EngagementResultAPI;

    public class PlanetInteractionDialogPluginImpl implements InteractionDialogPlugin {

       private static enum OptionId {
          INIT,
          LEAVE,
       }
       
       private InteractionDialogAPI dialog;
       private TextPanelAPI textPanel;
       private OptionPanelAPI options;
       private VisualPanelAPI visual;
       
       private CampaignFleetAPI playerFleet;
       private PlanetAPI planet;
       
       private static final Color HIGHLIGHT_COLOR = Global.getSettings().getColor("buttonShortcut");
       
       public void init(InteractionDialogAPI dialog) {
          this.dialog = dialog;
          textPanel = dialog.getTextPanel();
          options = dialog.getOptionPanel();
          visual = dialog.getVisualPanel();

          playerFleet = Global.getSector().getPlayerFleet();
          planet = (PlanetAPI) dialog.getInteractionTarget();
          
          visual.setVisualFade(0.25f, 0.25f);
          visual.showPlanetInfo(planet);
       
          dialog.setOptionOnEscape("Leave", OptionId.LEAVE);
          
          optionSelected(null, OptionId.INIT);
       }
       
       private EngagementResultAPI lastResult = null;
       public void backFromEngagement(EngagementResultAPI result) {
          // no combat here, so this won't get called
       }
       
       public void optionSelected(String text, Object optionData) {
          if (optionData == null) return;
          
          OptionId option = (OptionId) optionData;
          
          if (text != null) {
             textPanel.addParagraph(text, Global.getSettings().getColor("buttonText"));
          }
          
          switch (option) {
          case INIT:
             addText(getString("approach"));
             createInitialOptions();
             break;
          case LEAVE:
             Global.getSector().setPaused(false);
             dialog.dismiss();
             break;
          }
       }
       
       private Map<OptionId, JumpDestination> destinationMap = new HashMap<OptionId, JumpDestination>();
       private void createInitialOptions() {
          options.clearOptions();
          options.addOption("Leave", OptionId.LEAVE, null);
       }
       
       
       private OptionId lastOptionMousedOver = null;
       public void optionMousedOver(String optionText, Object optionData) {

       }
       
       public void advance(float amount) {
          
       }
       
       private void addText(String text) {
          textPanel.addParagraph(text);
       }
       
       private void appendText(String text) {
          textPanel.appendToLastParagraph(" " + text);
       }
       
       private String getString(String id) {
          String str = Global.getSettings().getString("planetInteractionDialog", id);

          String fleetOrShip = "fleet";
          if (playerFleet.getFleetData().getMembersListCopy().size() == 1) {
             fleetOrShip = "ship";
             if (playerFleet.getFleetData().getMembersListCopy().get(0).isFighterWing()) {
                fleetOrShip = "fighter wing";
             }
          }
          str = str.replaceAll("\\$fleetOrShip", fleetOrShip);
          str = str.replaceAll("\\$planetName", planet.getFullName());
          
          return str;
       }
       

       public Object getContext() {
          return null;
       }
    }
    [close]


    The Autofire AI / Ship AI stuff is huge; can't wait to try that stuff out :)

    I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of craziness ensues.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Vinya on July 27, 2013, 01:00:40 PM
    Custom ship styles? Like, you mean Tech Level or Ship Class? Because if we can add custom classes then expect to see the Spriter's size guide get fudged with a lot.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 27, 2013, 01:05:17 PM
    Custom ship styles? Like, you mean Tech Level or Ship Class? Because if we can add custom classes then expect to see the Spriter's size guide get fudged with a lot.

    Yes, the tech level. What it does is determine a bunch of colors (shields, explosions, some others) and sounds; all that is now moddable. As a side effect, the flux venting color is also moddable; forgot that was actually being set per-style, albeit to the same value :)

    Can't add custom ship sizes, though, and I don't think that's going to happen at any point.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: silentstormpt on July 27, 2013, 01:45:20 PM
    So based on whats on the notes, having a ship completely change its hull based on a shipsystem wont be achievable?

    Also i demand this out now :'( oneone111!!!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on July 27, 2013, 01:49:52 PM
    Whoa!

    So via these custom dialogs, we can Jump, see the results of the last Engagement (i.e., start a fight at a Station, engage a Station's guards, win, take over, Station loses cargo and / or Blueprints and / or industrial capacity as a result) and a bunch of other stuff?  So a Station can be anything from an ultra-complex smorgasbord of Missions to a simplistic toll-gate for Jumping?  That is really nice!

    The only thing that's missing is some way to interact with the Stations other than blowing them up.  I've always wanted to see "space cities" that we could fly around in and talk to mobs and static things.  IDK why, really- the idea of traveling around a city-like thing has a lot of appeal for whatever reasons.  The idea of having a battle in one, dodging static elements and engaging huge defenses is really fun, though!

    I guess that could be executed via a Mission, but I presume we can't do Dialogs in Missions... or can we?  And does Neutral work as a SIDE yet, so that non-combatants / third parties can be in Missions yet, even if only via custom AI?

    Also, one of the biggies that's not in the build; is there going to be an official method for allowing the AI to engage Stations and Planets yet?  Can Stations and Planets be treated like a Fleet object so that they can have ships like a normal Fleet?  

    I don't mean any "smart strategic AI that decides when this would be smart", don't get me wrong, just the basic mechanics?  

    This is one of those things I've hesitated to kludge into my mod for some time now, largely because I'm looking forward to a standard method.  The references you've made to "creating Outposts" suggests that Stations are no longer perma-objects in the gameworld... how does that work?

    Quote
    So based on whats on the notes, having a ship completely change its hull based on a shipsystem wont be achievable?
    You can sorta do that right now; erase the ship, replace it with the other ship, match up damage states.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Psiyon on July 27, 2013, 02:39:29 PM
    Alex I love you. I've said that a lot before, but now I love you a lot more. Like, a whole lot. That's a considerable amount of love.

    Is there a way to set a certain background on a per-star system basis? Like, you might have one system exist in normal space, and have a generic starry background, but another nearby system might be in the middle nebula and have an appropriate background.

    (If not, consider it a formal suggestion: having a blatantly obvious visual cue to differentiate important star systems could prove to be very beneficial for the core game and mods alike. Maybe not so beneficial for David having to draw all those 2048x2048 space-scapes, though.)


    Oh, another question: can you jump a fleet by using the interaction dialog plugin? Go to a station>Click "Warp me outside of the universe">dialog closes, you're outside the universe.
    Subsequently, can AI fleets be jumped to other systems without actually going through a jump point? Script>on arrival>warps fleet outside universe.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on July 27, 2013, 03:54:59 PM
    Hyperspace jump point/gravity well generated by the star can only be used if you have a high navigation skill, places the fleet in a random location near the star

    Is there any other way of interstellar travel? Because if not, navigation now becomes a must-have skill. Which is the same as a no-choice skill. Which means there's no reason for it to be a selectable skill at all, to limit hyperspace access you could just as well tie it to character level. Or am I missing something?

    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Vinya on July 27, 2013, 04:13:44 PM
    Will hyperspace graphics be customizable?

    Also: Combat in Hyperspace?! What? Shouldn't it be considered more like Warp Drives or Tachyon-Field drives? If there's combat in Hyperspace is that implying you aren't entering a kind of Subspace? Or was the whole combat in hyperspace thing a typo? D:
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on July 27, 2013, 04:15:02 PM
    There are jump points from which you can enter hyperspace, so you don't need a high navigation skill.  Right now we have no idea is there will be any restrictions on it, or where it will be.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Ravendarke on July 27, 2013, 05:26:37 PM
    Added WeaponAPI.getSprite() - returns SpriteAPI for the current weapon frame. Can be used to enable additive blending (glowy weapon sprite animations), adjust sprite color/transparency dynamically, etc
    Made ship hull styles fully moddable (shield color, explosion color, etc)
    Configured in data/config/hull_styles.json
    Can add new, fully-custom styles
    Can set custom engine/shield/etc sounds per style in sounds.json (see "engine_loop" for an example, can use custom style IDs there)
    Engine styles:
    Can now be specified directly under "style" (i.e.: "style":"midlineFlare", as opposed to "style":"CUSTOM","styleId":"midlineFlare"). Old way still works.
    All vanilla engine styles can be overridden using engine_styles.json
    Styles for LOW_TECH, MIDLINE, and HIGH_TECH extracted to engine_styles.json (as examples)

    Thanks!

    Ship and fighter AI is now fully moddable

    Thanks again!

    My last wish for modding is a way how to make beam charge up in same way as projectile weapon and it is absolutely perfect.

    Edit: Will be flux effect moddable to?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thaago on July 27, 2013, 07:04:01 PM
    ...

    Can we see any examples of dialog UI implementations yet, even if it's still rough?  I think that one of the biggies that people are going to want to try hacking out ASAP is Stuff To Do With Planets and Stations.

    Sure - here's the one for planet interactions, that doesn't do anything other than show the planet in the visual pane and lets you leave.

    (The layout is: text panel on the left, visual panel on the right, options below. Somewhat adjustable.)

    ...

    Quick question about this: looking through the class its clear that it expects a PlanetAPI from dialog.getInteractionTarget(). But how does the game know to send that to this plugin when planets are clicked? Is that something we have to register or is it handled behind the scenes (and sorry if this is a dumb question, modding has changed a lot and I haven't really wrapped my head around how a lot of the new plugin stuff works)?

    Other than that, I expect mods to become like four hundred times more interesting. Custom AI, systems, on the fly variants, styles, interactions with asteroids planets and stations, the possibility to have 'hidden' locations in hyperspace (unlocked by items or nav skill etc)... add in being able to save arbitrary persistent game data and things are going to get awesome. Of course its going to take everyone about 2 months to figure out how to do any of the complex stuff, but thats to be expected.

    The only thing I really want is the skeleton of trading: being able to set prices per instance of SectorEntityToken and being able to call up the two party inventory screen if set as an option in a InteractionDialogPlugin. (Hidden asteroid pirate bases that launch fleets after you if you get too close, but will allow you to trade if you <x>? Heck yes!)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Cycerin on July 28, 2013, 02:45:47 AM
    *** yeah additive sprites and custom ship styles. I've been waiting for this.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: silentstormpt on July 28, 2013, 03:15:16 AM
    Thats why i want it released  :D, there's so much work to be done!

    On the side note, i expect the planet interaction is just like a station, you click on it and your fleet will fly into the middle.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Ravendarke on July 28, 2013, 05:47:57 AM
    Thats why i want it released  :D, there's so much work to be done!

    On the side note, i expect the planet interaction is just like a stations, you click on it and you fleet will fly in to the middle.

    Hmm maybe kind of docking? So fleet will be unattackable?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: LazyWizard on July 28, 2013, 06:40:34 AM
    Quick question about this: looking through the class its clear that it expects a PlanetAPI from dialog.getInteractionTarget(). But how does the game know to send that to this plugin when planets are clicked? Is that something we have to register or is it handled behind the scenes (and sorry if this is a dumb question, modding has changed a lot and I haven't really wrapped my head around how a lot of the new plugin stuff works)?

    There's a new plugin system that determines which plugin is chosen for specific entities based on priority. Look for CampaignPlugin in the patch notes. :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: MShadowy on July 28, 2013, 08:26:14 AM
    Definitely a lot to be excited about with this upcoming release.

    Nice stuff, Alex.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 28, 2013, 11:57:49 AM
    So based on whats on the notes, having a ship completely change its hull based on a shipsystem wont be achievable?

    Possible via ShipAPI.setSprite() and ShipAPI.getExactBounds() (to update the bounds.)


    So via these custom dialogs, we can Jump, see the results of the last Engagement (i.e., start a fight at a Station, engage a Station's guards, win, take over, Station loses cargo and / or Blueprints and / or industrial capacity as a result) and a bunch of other stuff?  So a Station can be anything from an ultra-complex smorgasbord of Missions to a simplistic toll-gate for Jumping?  That is really nice!

    Yeah, that ought to be possible.

    The only thing that's missing is some way to interact with the Stations other than blowing them up.  I've always wanted to see "space cities" that we could fly around in and talk to mobs and static things.  IDK why, really- the idea of traveling around a city-like thing has a lot of appeal for whatever reasons.  The idea of having a battle in one, dodging static elements and engaging huge defenses is really fun, though!

    I guess that could be executed via a Mission, but I presume we can't do Dialogs in Missions... or can we?  And does Neutral work as a SIDE yet, so that non-combatants / third parties can be in Missions yet, even if only via custom AI?

    No dialogs in missions, no. Neutral doesn't work as a side, and it's not really likely to at any point. It's only meant for asteroids and such. Although, with custom AI, you probably could pull that off, though I can't say, off the top of my head, how the normal AI would react to "neutral" objects attacking it. Probably not well.

    But you could definitely code up a mini-game where you're a guy walking around the station, using the custom ui panel stuff. Not that that's even remotely the same :)


    Also, one of the biggies that's not in the build; is there going to be an official method for allowing the AI to engage Stations and Planets yet?  Can Stations and Planets be treated like a Fleet object so that they can have ships like a normal Fleet? 

    I don't mean any "smart strategic AI that decides when this would be smart", don't get me wrong, just the basic mechanics? 

    This is one of those things I've hesitated to kludge into my mod for some time now, largely because I'm looking forward to a standard method.  The references you've made to "creating Outposts" suggests that Stations are no longer perma-objects in the gameworld... how does that work?

    Just to be clear, outposts aren't in yet, and stations work as they do in 0.54.1a. Planets, at least, I wouldn't expect to act like "fleets" at all in terms of combat, so that's not likely to happen. Station combat, I haven't thought about - will have to consider it carefully at some point.

    With the way combat works on the campaign level, though, you could fairly easily change the battle depending on whether it's near a planet or a station, and you could also have autoresolve take that into account.


    Alex I love you. I've said that a lot before, but now I love you a lot more. Like, a whole lot. That's a considerable amount of love.

    Is... is that even possible? :D

    Is there a way to set a certain background on a per-star system basis? Like, you might have one system exist in normal space, and have a generic starry background, but another nearby system might be in the middle nebula and have an appropriate background.

    Yeah, there is a method for that. Note that there's only one video memory slot for star system backgrounds (and a separate one for hyperspace), so any transition into a star system with a background different from the last system you visited triggers the background being loaded from disk. I think that'll work fairly well if star system backgrounds are organized by area - it'll only have to load when you enter a new "region" of space. It'll work less well if backgrounds are just randomly assigned for the sake of being different.

    Oh, another question: can you jump a fleet by using the interaction dialog plugin? Go to a station>Click "Warp me outside of the universe">dialog closes, you're outside the universe.
    Subsequently, can AI fleets be jumped to other systems without actually going through a jump point? Script>on arrival>warps fleet outside universe.

    You can do that. There's a SectorAPI.doHyperspaceTransition() method if you want all the bells and whistles. Alternately, you could just remove the fleet from one LocationAPI and add it to another, calling SectorAPI.setCurrentLocation() if appropriate (i.e. if the player's fleet is in a new location). doHyperspaceTransition() takes care of all that.


    Hyperspace jump point/gravity well generated by the star can only be used if you have a high navigation skill, places the fleet in a random location near the star

    Is there any other way of interstellar travel? Because if not, navigation now becomes a must-have skill. Which is the same as a no-choice skill. Which means there's no reason for it to be a selectable skill at all, to limit hyperspace access you could just as well tie it to character level. Or am I missing something?
    There are jump points from which you can enter hyperspace, so you don't need a high navigation skill.  Right now we have no idea is there will be any restrictions on it, or where it will be.

    Right; it's just the star's gravity well that requires high skill. Other points don't. I'd imagine a star system only accessible through its star's gravity well would make for a pretty good hideout, though. Assuming there's actually a way out!


    Edit: Will be flux effect moddable to?

    Maybe at some point, wasn't planning to touch it now.


    Quick question about this: looking through the class its clear that it expects a PlanetAPI from dialog.getInteractionTarget(). But how does the game know to send that to this plugin when planets are clicked? Is that something we have to register or is it handled behind the scenes (and sorry if this is a dumb question, modding has changed a lot and I haven't really wrapped my head around how a lot of the new plugin stuff works)?

    There's a new plugin system that determines which plugin is chosen for specific entities based on priority. Look for CampaignPlugin in the patch notes. :)

    Right, more specifically CampaignPlugin.pickInteractionDialogPlugin(SectorEntityToken interactionTarget). Since that's actually instantiating the plugin, it can make sure that the target is of the right type.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on July 28, 2013, 01:01:45 PM
    Quote
    With the way combat works on the campaign level, though, you could fairly easily change the battle depending on whether it's near a planet or a station, and you could also have autoresolve take that into account.
    OK, so does that mean there's now a Campaign-level event that we're able to use to adjust the outcomes for AI-on-AI battles?  If so, wonderful, that makes dynamic diplomacy much easier to work on.

    Or can we just handle it via Autobattle, because Autobattle will include AI-on-AI, not just player vs. AI?  I'd love to finally have a generic method to do this for the AI that's likely to remain stable  :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 28, 2013, 01:07:13 PM
    There's CampaignPlugin.pickBattleAutoresolverPlugin().

    So, not exactly an event notification (I'd still like to add event notifications at some point), but functionally about as good.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Ravendarke on July 28, 2013, 02:27:09 PM
    ops, just to be more specify: I meant flux venting effect ofc.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 28, 2013, 02:42:13 PM
    ops, just to be more specify: I meant flux venting effect ofc.

    Color yes; texture no.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: naufrago on July 28, 2013, 05:48:50 PM
    Right; it's just the star's gravity well that requires high skill. Other points don't. I'd imagine a star system only accessible through its star's gravity well would make for a pretty good hideout, though. Assuming there's actually a way out!

    I feel that if you can enter a system, there should be a way to leave it. It would really, really suck to be exploring and encounter an inescapable death trap like that. I have a strong aversion to losing things due to circumstances outside my control. Even if the only way out were an emergency jump that comes with a HUGE hit to your CR (like a flat 30-50% or so) and significant hull damage (anywhere from 10-99% of your current hp), that would be preferable to a game over for something so silly.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Sproginator on July 29, 2013, 02:15:53 AM
    Yeah good work Alex and team, I'm looking forward to this now :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: L33tGuilty on July 29, 2013, 03:45:23 AM
    When will this be realesed??
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: FloW on July 29, 2013, 03:52:57 AM
    When will this be realesed??
    Some time between now and the end of the universe.

    So somebody in "Milliways" can tell you when it will be released, but I'm not sure how to get there and then.
    Just a Hitchhikers reference.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 29, 2013, 08:01:27 AM

    The only thing that's missing is some way to interact with the Stations other than blowing them up.  I've always wanted to see "space cities" that we could fly around in and talk to mobs and static things.  IDK why, really- the idea of traveling around a city-like thing has a lot of appeal for whatever reasons.  The idea of having a battle in one, dodging static elements and engaging huge defenses is really fun, though!

    I guess that could be executed via a Mission, but I presume we can't do Dialogs in Missions... or can we?  And does Neutral work as a SIDE yet, so that non-combatants / third parties can be in Missions yet, even if only via custom AI?

    No dialogs in missions, no. Neutral doesn't work as a side, and it's not really likely to at any point. It's only meant for asteroids and such. Although, with custom AI, you probably could pull that off, though I can't say, off the top of my head, how the normal AI would react to "neutral" objects attacking it. Probably not well.

    But you could definitely code up a mini-game where you're a guy walking around the station, using the custom ui panel stuff. Not that that's even remotely the same :)


    Give it time and people will create real total conversions where the game's engine is being used for something that's not spaceship pewpew at all. I'll be hella impressed then.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Trylobot on July 29, 2013, 08:05:23 AM
    So based on whats on the notes, having a ship completely change its hull based on a shipsystem wont be achievable?
    Possible via ShipAPI.setSprite() and ShipAPI.getExactBounds() (to update the bounds.)

    Holy crap Alex did you just finish making my Star Control II mod possible?!  :-*
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: silentstormpt on July 29, 2013, 08:12:35 AM
    So based on whats on the notes, having a ship completely change its hull based on a shipsystem wont be achievable?
    Possible via ShipAPI.setSprite() and ShipAPI.getExactBounds() (to update the bounds.)

    Holy crap Alex did you just finish making my Star Control II mod possible?!  :-*

    Yeah,
    Seems like i dont need 2 ships for a certain "mrrrrrrrrrrs" race anymore  :-*
    it will take a long time to get the conversations and star map up, will be hacking my way in the old game checking all the solar systems and creating the whole sector on the mod
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 29, 2013, 10:03:34 AM
    Holy crap Alex did you just finish making my Star Control II mod possible?!  :-*

    The TODO item for this had a "why? SC2 mod" next to it :)


    I feel that if you can enter a system, there should be a way to leave it. It would really, really suck to be exploring and encounter an inescapable death trap like that. I have a strong aversion to losing things due to circumstances outside my control. Even if the only way out were an emergency jump that comes with a HUGE hit to your CR (like a flat 30-50% or so) and significant hull damage (anywhere from 10-99% of your current hp), that would be preferable to a game over for something so silly.

    Well, yeah. Certainly wouldn't want to just have totally random, "game-over" traps. I don't think you have to worry about that :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Vinya on July 29, 2013, 12:09:27 PM
    I actually like that 'Emergency Jump' idea- though I think it'd make sense only with smaller fleets.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Ember on July 29, 2013, 12:49:51 PM
    I actually like that 'Emergency Jump' idea- though I think it'd make sense only with smaller fleets.

    i would say smaller ships as well such a small group of frigates or a single destroyer
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Trylobot on July 29, 2013, 02:42:38 PM
    I have a strong aversion to losing things due to circumstances outside my control.

    Then you'd hate this GTA IV mod (probably the most fun I ever had with the game):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifTIuA8Dq58
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Uomoz on July 29, 2013, 03:30:53 PM
    I have a strong aversion to losing things due to circumstances outside my control.

    I have a strong sympathy for events that make me lose things due to circumstances outside my control.

    Excessive control removes the FUN (read it as a DF quote).
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Vind on July 30, 2013, 02:36:57 AM
    Planning is part of the game - removing fuel calculation and critical decisions for say ending game or scuttling half fleet for getting away with some fuel will be bad for gameplay experience. No magic fuel stations on galaxy edge please.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 30, 2013, 02:57:08 AM
    I prefer knowing the risks of my Do's and Don'ts.

    I hate FTL for it's almost luck based approach to winning the game. A random encounter with a ship with teleporters and Mantises can finish a game at any stage of the game. Not counting the fact that you may be unlucky enough that the shops you encounter never stock weapons adequate enough for the final boss, sometimes even leaving you with the weapons you had from the start of the game. Or you might find that one fire inducing beam of mass destruction that allows you to cackle maniacally while every strafe with the beam sets half their ship on fire. Maybe you decided to use drones to attack, only the last few shops and random events have offered you no drones, leaving you effectively weaponless. Those sorts of chance occurrences are just infuriating to me.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: phyrex on July 30, 2013, 09:08:49 AM
    I prefer knowing the risks of my Do's and Don'ts.

    I hate FTL for it's almost luck based approach to winning the game. A random encounter with a ship with teleporters and Mantises can finish a game at any stage of the game. Not counting the fact that you may be unlucky enough that the shops you encounter never stock weapons adequate enough for the final boss, sometimes even leaving you with the weapons you had from the start of the game. Or you might find that one fire inducing beam of mass destruction that allows you to cackle maniacally while every strafe with the beam sets half their ship on fire. Maybe you decided to use drones to attack, only the last few shops and random events have offered you no drones, leaving you effectively weaponless. Those sorts of chance occurrences are just infuriating to me.

    ah gosh, dont even remind me -_- i like FTL's concept but the amount of details left to randomness (or maybe just how apparent/obvious it was) made me just hate the game after a moment.
    after a while i just downloaded a patch that took off some of those craps and the game all of a sudden became infinitely more enjoyable.

    i feel like in general, random elements should either be in low amount, of relatively low importance or, if nothing better, be cleverly hidden so as to give an illusion of control to mitigate theire negative effect
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 30, 2013, 10:01:23 AM
    That's an interesting question overall.

    Regarding FTL, I think it's mostly a matter of how you approach the game. If you into it with the idea that you're going to try a specific type of build, you're going to have a rough time. The game throws stuff at you and it's up to you to build a coherent whole out of it. If you've got it in your mind that you're trying to build a drone ship, you're likely to miss out on a lot of opportunities. Basically, I think it emphasizes adaptation over planning, and that if you approach it with that in mind, the random elements are mostly fine.

    Will you lose the occasional game because you got no extra fuel ever? Yeah, you might, but that may only happen one in a thousand games, and it'll probably be fun trying to survive anyway. I'm also pretty sure that "letting you win every time if you play perfectly" wasn't a design goal, and the focus was more on enjoyable play sessions. For that, I think adaptation over planning is a good call, even if it'd be nice to play a more planned-out game of it every now and again.


    ... I feel like I've written out something very similar at some point. Ah, well.

    I have a strong sympathy for events that make me lose things due to circumstances outside my control.

    Excessive control removes the FUN (read it as a DF quote).

    I pretty much agree there. The main thing is to give the player options to try to deal with things, and make sure that it's not DF-style FUN all day, every day.

    "Hey, so you went into this star systems, and there are no exits, gg no rp" is no good. But other stuff random stuff can very much work, to whatever degree the rest of the design allows you to adapt to changing circumstances.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 30, 2013, 10:44:56 AM
    That's an interesting question overall.

    Regarding FTL, I think it's mostly a matter of how you approach the game. If you into it with the idea that you're going to try a specific type of build, you're going to have a rough time. The game throws stuff at you and it's up to you to build a coherent whole out of it. If you've got it in your mind that you're trying to build a drone ship, you're likely to miss out on a lot of opportunities. Basically, I think it emphasizes adaptation over planning, and that if you approach it with that in mind, the random elements are mostly fine.

    Will you lose the occasional game because you got no extra fuel ever? Yeah, you might, but that may only happen one in a thousand games, and it'll probably be fun trying to survive anyway. I'm also pretty sure that "letting you win every time if you play perfectly" wasn't a design goal, and the focus was more on enjoyable play sessions. For that, I think adaptation over planning is a good call, even if it'd be nice to play a more planned-out game of it every now and again.

    I find it difficult to enjoy making inefficient one-shot one-damage pulse lasers work when fighting the final boss in FTL. It simply doesn't cut the mustard. It's typically something chancing upon the firebeam (and actually being able to buy it), or finding one of the better missile launchers. Then just spend the rest of the game wasting stuff with the firebeam, or stocking up on missiles to abuse on the final boss. Fuel was never much of an issue for me, it was trying to build a ship that works beyond, what, the 5th sector? That seemed to be where I and a lot of the LPs I watched just spontaneously melt. If you haven't had a major improvement in arsenal by then, it's basically GG. And you have no control over that. The starting two-shot pulse laser will crack a shield, but you'll never do any damage with it in the later sectors. You NEED to have something more and if RNG doesn't give that "something" to you, you'll fail every time because you just become incompetent.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Histidine on July 30, 2013, 10:16:25 PM
    Spoiler tagged for ramblyness:

    Spoiler
    I found FTL to contain several textbook examples of how not to do random elements. The Stealth B cruiser is easily the worst offender: fairly effective against typical enemies if you do it right, but there are certain enemies which you simply cannot do anything against, and which you can't choose not to encounter (Zoltan ships, drones, beam drones, Zoltan ships with beam drones).

    Perhaps even worse are the random multiple-choice events where you run the risk of losing a crewmember through dice roll. This is typically a serious blow that would take far more potential reward than the events offer to match, so once you know which choices can lead to crew loss you just don't take them, ever.

    As for adaptation vs. planning: YMMV, but it seemed to me that all successful ships, regardless of what they started as, have the exact same basic build by the end of the game - as much shielding and engine power as you can afford, enough weaponry to overwhelm or bypass shields, cloaking, sometimes a teleporter - because that is what is needed to win. That strikes me as being much closer to planning than to adaptation (and there is only one correct plan, to boot).
    [close]

    My philosophy is this: random bad events are fine as long as the game also gives you a way to prepare for or otherwise recover from them, i.e. your decisions affect how well you cope with the curveball. In poker, if you get dealt a bad hand, you can bluff your way out, gamble on the next card being better, or fold early and save your chips for later - deciding which of these decisions to take and executing it requires skill.

    Imagine what poker would be like if the size of the pot was finalized before anyone saw any cards.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Lancefighter on July 31, 2013, 12:38:53 AM
    Its odd you mention 'random events that can lose you a crew member through a dice roll'

    A lot of those events can be completely mitigated by having the right gear for them (level 2 medbay is huge, for example), or by simply not embarking on those areas (pick the 'do nothing' option).

    I dont really see how that is much different - If i ever encounter spiders without a fire weapon, I merely get up and leave. Not worth it. If you believe yourself unable to prepare for the events you are given, that is because you haevnt tried to prepare for them.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Trylobot on July 31, 2013, 07:23:42 AM
    @Silver Silence, @Histidine: I think the answer here is very simple; you don't enjoy Roguelikes. Good thing Starsector isn't one.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on July 31, 2013, 10:36:17 AM
    I love Roguelikes. 

    There's nothing like perma-death after the character I've put 4 hours of my life into randomly drops into a dungeon crawling with Acid Blobs and Flesh-Flensing Demons right around the entrance  ;)

    That said, FTL provides a little more choice to get out of messes.  It really needs a Spider Solitaire-style method to take back moves and more attention paid to making sure that every game is potentially winnable, though :)

    Anyhow, I don't think Alex would strand us without a method of getting back.  That wouldn't be Fun.  This is a game where even Iron Mode isn't perma-death, after all.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thaago on July 31, 2013, 02:13:53 PM
    I've been thinking a lot about how to make a procedural sector with the new API - is there any way at the moment to make a new faction from a script without external files?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: jeffg10 on July 31, 2013, 05:33:48 PM
    will the launcher auto update? because every time i have tried to get my activation code back i fail because i can't remember the email i used at the time i bought it  ???
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on July 31, 2013, 05:51:48 PM
    @Silver Silence, @Histidine: I think the answer here is very simple; you don't enjoy Roguelikes. Good thing Starsector isn't one.

    I enjoy TBoI, I enjoy Teleglitch. I enjoy Terraria in hardcore mode.
    It's just in FTL, there's practically no skill needed. It's just luck of the draw as to whether you get the stuff needed to win the game. Those random gain crew/lose crew events are the worst. When I played my first few runs, I thought there was a good choice and a bad choice. I think it's in the slaver one where a slave is running away. I chose to save the slave, only for him to be a member of the slaver's crew and suddenly I'm fighting a ship and there's enemy crew running ragged all over my ship. Fine. Next time, choose not to help slave who turns on me anyway and randomly kills a crew member ANYWAY.  Oh, there's a colony with a massive infection problem? S**t, man, I got more important things than disease, see ya. Now I feel like a ***, but if I don't have a hulking humanoid slab of rock in my crew, I ain't coming within half an AU of that colony. NOPE. IT NOT WORTH IT.


    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on July 31, 2013, 06:15:36 PM
    I've been thinking a lot about how to make a procedural sector with the new API - is there any way at the moment to make a new faction from a script without external files?

    No, there isn't.

    will the launcher auto update? because every time i have tried to get my activation code back i fail because i can't remember the email i used at the time i bought it  ???

    Totally not the thread for it, but: send an email to keys [at] bmtmicro [dot] com with whatever order info you do remember. The launcher won't auto-update, but you can always grab the latest version here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/preorder/); also, shouldn't need to re-enter the key.

    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Mattk50 on August 01, 2013, 08:37:22 PM
    Alex, this update is already massive and long in the making, is there much more that you're planning on putting into it before it's release?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 01, 2013, 10:06:08 PM
    Feature-wise, no. There's still some pending UI work, though, and - due to the size of the update - I expect playtesting to take a bit longer than usual. I've also got to go through the missions and revamp them (and/or take some out), due to the new combat mechanics. There are also a few rough edges to clean up here and there; and a sizeable *REDACTED* overhaul. Basically, it's just a bunch of miscellaneous stuff left at this point, but miscellaneous stuff isn't to be underestimated.

    You have no idea how much I'm looking forward to getting this release in your guys' hands :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Dri on August 01, 2013, 10:32:09 PM
    The *REDACTED* is surely the sound effect overhaul?! :o

    Stark has been AWOL for months now... what the heck has he been up to?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: phyrex on August 01, 2013, 11:05:31 PM
    You have no idea how much I'm looking forward to getting this release in your guys' hands :)

    I disagree, anyone that has worked on a mod of theire own can understand how it feels :P
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on August 01, 2013, 11:47:46 PM
    The *REDACTED* is surely the sound effect overhaul?! :o

    Another candidate would be the combat UI.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Foxer360 on August 02, 2013, 12:04:56 AM
    I think it is most definitely a sound update. If you check out Mr.Stark's official trailer and listen closely to the sound effects (It is hard with all of the music) some of the sound effects are different. Be aware that some sounds will not be in the actually game. For example, the sound of the Onslaught when it explodes, fading into a white screen is probably fake. The old sounds are still there, but they seem to be for induvidual or specific weapons now. There is my analysis. :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Starlight on August 02, 2013, 02:42:59 AM
    You have no idea how much I'm looking forward to getting this release in your guys' hands :)

    You have no idea how much I'm looking forwards to some fresh new Starsector space adventuring!

    ...and yet there's tiny voice in my head saying, "You know updating your mod for all this is going to hurt right?"  I think of the work you're doing and I feel shame for that voice. z: )
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BrickedKeyboard on August 02, 2013, 07:45:07 PM
    Alex, that sounds like about a month of work remaining.  Care to give at least a vague idea of how much time it has taken in the past to accomplish the amount of work you have left?  As in "greater than a week, greater than 2 weeks, greater than a month.."

    That way I won't bother to refresh the page every day or get my hopes up if the patch release is not imminent.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 02, 2013, 07:55:54 PM
    Well, you definitely don't have to do it every day.

    Beyond that, I'm afraid I'm going to have to stick to my "soon(tm)" guns here. Sorry!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BrickedKeyboard on August 02, 2013, 08:43:21 PM
    I get that SoonTM is a great running joke, and I understand that you don't want to commit to any kind of deadline.  This is because trying to meet deadlines are stressful, and force you to rush things and write sloppy code that will have to be fixed later.  Also, you don't know what unexpected bugs and/or technical gremlins will attack next, you've added a bunch of new code, and no one but you has really used it.  No matter how much playtesting you do, there's going to be lots of bugs on release, you'll probably need to do an immediate hotfix.  

    With that said, I'm just asking for the vaguest idea of whether you are at 50% or 90% of what you wanted to do.  I kind of wish that you gave the community realistic time estimates of when the next patch might be available.  A realistic time estimate is made by either writing down a pessimistic schedule for how long each feature should take, then doubling that estimate, or there's more exacting formula out there.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 02, 2013, 08:45:27 PM
    It's not really a joke, but...

    With that said, I'm just asking for the vaguest idea of whether you are at 50% or 90% of what you wanted to do.

    Definitely closer to 90% than to 50%. Way closer.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: phyrex on August 03, 2013, 06:36:11 AM
    It's not really a joke, but...

    With that said, I'm just asking for the vaguest idea of whether you are at 50% or 90% of what you wanted to do.

    Definitely closer to 90% than to 50%. Way closer.

    may i add that 90% is a lot more than 50%, but "10% left of a crapton of work" is still a lot of work ;)
    if you see what i mean  ;D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Dri on August 03, 2013, 02:18:42 PM
    Perhaps, to make the wait less painful, we could get a sneak-peak of the new 2 fighter deck ship? ;D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: grmp on August 03, 2013, 02:20:54 PM
    where can you download the latest version from ?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Foxer360 on August 03, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
    @grmp In the blog post a few pages back.

    Wait, there is a new carrier?!? :o
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: grmp on August 03, 2013, 02:30:08 PM
    @Foxer360

    thanks so 0.54a still the latest release it seems
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on August 03, 2013, 02:45:01 PM
    @Foxer360

    thanks so 0.54a still the latest release it seems

    That's right. We are expecting an update relatively soon, though.

    Welcome to the forum btw :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Wyvern on August 05, 2013, 02:48:45 PM
    Hm... A thought on the AI modding - this means we'll be able to actually make an AI that doesn't have issues with long skinny ships, doesn't it?

    Alex, is it possible to replace just the "range from weapon to target" part of the existing AI, or will we have to re-implement the whole thing?  If the latter, is the code for the default AI going to be available to provide a starting point?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 05, 2013, 03:17:58 PM
    Hm... A thought on the AI modding - this means we'll be able to actually make an AI that doesn't have issues with long skinny ships, doesn't it?

    Right, in theory.

    Alex, is it possible to replace just the "range from weapon to target" part of the existing AI, or will we have to re-implement the whole thing?

    Only for autofire, since that can be set per-weapon and plugs into the existing AI.

    If the latter, is the code for the default AI going to be available to provide a starting point?

    No. It's really not in any shape for that. I see full general-purpose AI modding as something that would mostly be the domain of total conversions, anyway. You'd also have to write custom AI for all the ship systems - since custom system AI is a plugin to the default AI, and if that is replaced, well.

    Writing ship AI is just an involved process, and the patch notes touch on that a bit.

    (Another use case is custom AI for specific ships, rather than a blanket replacement for all ships. I'd imagine this would be much simpler, and could enable some neat things.)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Wyvern on August 05, 2013, 03:31:07 PM
    Hm... Does the main AI use the autofire AI at all when deciding how far it wants to be from its target?  Or is the autofire AI just a compartmentalized "how & at whom do I fire this one gun" sort of thing?  If the former, just changing autofire behavior would be fine.  If the latter... I guess I'll have to see how good a general AI I can make.  Should be entertaining at least!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 05, 2013, 03:38:23 PM
    It's the latter :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Ravendarke on August 05, 2013, 04:50:25 PM
    About that AI, so.. will it be possible to make, for example, specific ship more aggresive? I mean rushing to its optimal range, not trying to avoid enemy all the time, stop backpaddeling from tachyons lance range and such?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on August 05, 2013, 06:29:57 PM
    Quote
    No. It's really not in any shape for that. I see full general-purpose AI modding as something that would mostly be the domain of total conversions, anyway. You'd also have to write custom AI for all the ship systems - since custom system AI is a plugin to the default AI, and if that is replaced, well.
    But that's just a plugin, right? So just a one-liner to stick it back in the loop, but the Big Question then becomes where in the loop it executes?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 05, 2013, 06:48:51 PM
    It's not - the implementation of vanilla ship system AI relies on data already computed by the base AI (threat/ship state/etc), in addition to stuff that's passed in via the ShipSystemAIScript interface. I might add a way to retrieve modded system AI scripts to the API, though... but, your ship AI would then have to use/respect the ShipwideAIFlags that's passed in to the system AI script at creation.

    Basically, system AI scripts, despite being plugins, aren't completely separate from the rest of the AI because they need to talk to each other to make more sensible decisions. In the case of core implementations, they are tied more directly for coding convenience and performance reasons.


    Edit: or are you talking about the ship AI itself? The above is assuming you were asking "but can't we just stick ship system AI back in somehow?"
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: FlashFrozen on August 05, 2013, 06:52:23 PM
    Mmm, now that I've seen some of it, there isn't a way to separate hyperspace speed from fleet speed is there?
    That or moddable lol

    Ie, have some special cargo ships that have exceptional hyperspace speed ( buffalo 1 ? ) while having real mediocre combat speed.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 05, 2013, 06:56:38 PM
    Travel speed and combat speed are now completely separate - there's a "maximum burn" stat, a value from 1 to 10 that determines travel speed. Normal and hyper travel speed are at this point the same, though I can see adding a stat to differentiate those at some point.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 05, 2013, 08:59:21 PM
    (@xenoargh: Responded; moved here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6475.0) as it's starting to get a bit too technical/off-topic for this.)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Movementcat on August 07, 2013, 01:16:16 PM
    Release it finally ! :-(
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Foxer360 on August 07, 2013, 10:23:23 PM
    So, my current mod will be broken? The file structure will have to be changed, right? Ok, on a scale of 1 to 10, how many things will be broken? Gah, I'm such a noob.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 07, 2013, 10:44:45 PM
    So, my current mod will be broken? The file structure will have to be changed, right? Ok, on a scale of 1 to 10, how many things will be broken? Gah, I'm such a noob.

    Some things will be broken, mostly to do with campaign scripts. Things like ship and weapon data will be just fine, though. Unless your weapons are relying on core sounds; those might have to be adjusted, but that's a pretty simple change.

    Basically, I'm taking some care not to break things, and certainly not to break them without at least a half-decent reason :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Foxer360 on August 07, 2013, 11:07:55 PM
    XD Campaign scripts! Oh noes! I have to copy/paste/fill-in-the-blanks again! Oh well, that's what I get for developing my mod really late in the update. ::)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Sproginator on August 08, 2013, 12:30:54 AM
    Are there going to be changes to the generators for fleets, such as the player fleet etc. and will there also be changes to the way a player may choose the starting ship, or is that mostly the same?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Zaphide on August 08, 2013, 04:07:02 AM
    So, my current mod will be broken? The file structure will have to be changed, right? Ok, on a scale of 1 to 10, how many things will be broken? Gah, I'm such a noob.

    Some things will be broken, mostly to do with campaign scripts. Things like ship and weapon data will be just fine, though. Unless your weapons are relying on core sounds; those might have to be adjusted, but that's a pretty simple change.

    Basically, I'm taking some care not to break things, and certainly not to break them without at least a half-decent reason :)

    Breaking things will only get exponentially worse as StarSector matures, so break stuff now if in doubt :) Otherwise you will be upset with yourself!  :D

    Also, is http://fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/ (http://fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/) close to being updated again? :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Okim on August 08, 2013, 11:23:58 AM
    So, my current mod will be broken? The file structure will have to be changed, right? Ok, on a scale of 1 to 10, how many things will be broken? Gah, I'm such a noob.

    Some things will be broken, mostly to do with campaign scripts. Things like ship and weapon data will be just fine, though. Unless your weapons are relying on core sounds; those might have to be adjusted, but that's a pretty simple change.

    Basically, I'm taking some care not to break things, and certainly not to break them without at least a half-decent reason :)

    Oh man...

    And i have almost finished restructuring my Ironclads. Seems that i`ll spend a month or so just to adapt them to the new 0.6a...

    BTW, wanted to ask if it would be possible to specify a starting position (system - specific location in it) so that players would be able to fully enjoy their faction pick after creation (and not end up in the middle of enemy controlled system with just a freighter :) ).

    Any chances that we will get some basic trade scripts? At least to simply differentiate buy/sell prices - the resources we`ll add by ourselves :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on August 08, 2013, 11:32:03 AM
    Alex has already said no about direct price manipulation for 0.6, so I'm thinking that we'll still have to use the concept prototyped by FairyEN, which has a really nice trade system :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Okim on August 08, 2013, 11:47:27 AM
    Well, that`s bad since multiple systems will certainly lack that...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on August 08, 2013, 11:58:22 AM
    It should be possible to use that system in multiple systems just fine.  Take a look at how that was done, it's a little irksome to develop the resources but it's straightforward otherwise.  The big problem is how to do it in a dynamic context- that will get a bit tricky but not too bad :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thaago on August 08, 2013, 03:46:13 PM
    I've added a thread to modding for the design of a utility mod to add variable prices: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6486

    Lets move the conversation there to that this thread stays on the topic of .6a. And also because I could use feedback.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: keptin on August 09, 2013, 12:44:21 AM
    Thanks for the continued development Alex, I'm really looking forward to seeing all the fantastic changes made over the past year.  I'm sure you're excited to finally release it into the hands of the players.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: kasbark on August 09, 2013, 01:06:28 AM
    As someone who has taken a break from Starsector for the last few months i'm really looking forward to 0.6a! I think i'll take a few weeks more (hopefully not more than that :-) off and come back when 0.6a is released, and some of the bigger mods have been updated.

    Keep up the amazing work Alex!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 09, 2013, 10:32:45 AM
    Thanks guys :)

    Also, is http://fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/ (http://fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/) close to being updated again? :)

    Wasn't planning on it until the release, but I'll see if I can get around to it before then. Probably not, though, the closer one gets to a release, the less time there is for "getting around" to non-essential things :)


    Are there going to be changes to the generators for fleets, such as the player fleet etc. and will there also be changes to the way a player may choose the starting ship, or is that mostly the same?

    Probably mostly/entirely the same, but we'll see.


    BTW, wanted to ask if it would be possible to specify a starting position (system - specific location in it) so that players would be able to fully enjoy their faction pick after creation (and not end up in the middle of enemy controlled system with just a freighter :) ).

    Oh, glad you mentioned that! Actually not sure how that works (which probably means it doesn't), will take a look.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Bishi on August 09, 2013, 10:45:34 AM
    Please for the love of god release a new version of the game, I love your game so much that I check almost daily for updates and I can't believe its been about 8 months since the last version came out :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Wyvern on August 09, 2013, 10:47:47 AM
    Oh hm.  Maybe I just missed it, but speaking of moddable AI, will we be able to make custom missile AIs?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: FloW on August 09, 2013, 11:11:00 AM
    Please for the love of god release a new version of the game, I love your game so much that I check almost daily for updates and I can't believe its been about 8 months since the last version came out :)
    Love of god actually has quite a bad exchange rate. I don't think you can even buy a loaf of bread with it.
    When the new version comes out, it will be glorious and noone will question The One and his decision to push back the release date.

    Disclaimer: This is in no way intended to start an argument about religion. Just saying that Alex pulls the strings and will release the new version whenever he wants. Also, the new version will be pretty wizard.

    Oh hm.  Maybe I just missed it, but speaking of moddable AI, will we be able to make custom missile AIs?
    Just checked the current notes: There're ships, fighters, autofire and drones; but for now no missiles.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 09, 2013, 11:13:59 AM
    Yeah, I actually just forgot about 'em; remembered the other day and added it to the list.

    @Bishi: Appreciate the enthusiasm, doing my best, etc etc :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Reshy on August 09, 2013, 10:44:34 PM
    So Alex I'm assuming at some point there will be an actual economy with different buying and selling prices for each station?  Will there be commodities (Eg. Spice, Unobtanium, Flux Crystals)?  How will you make being a trader interesting rather than a grind?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Mattk50 on August 10, 2013, 10:08:07 AM
    So Alex I'm assuming at some point there will be an actual economy with different buying and selling prices for each station?  Will there be commodities (Eg. Spice, Unobtanium, Flux Crystals)?  How will you make being a trader interesting rather than a grind?
    I'm assuming defending your big slow fleet of freighters from pirates will be quite interesting.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Vinya on August 10, 2013, 06:35:17 PM
    Or dodging between huge fleets in your small cargo frigate. That's what I can't wait for.


    I don't miss Freelancer at all..... :'(
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Linnis on August 11, 2013, 10:05:10 PM
    Or dodging between huge fleets in your small cargo frigate. That's what I can't wait for.


    I don't miss Freelancer at all..... :'(


    I really hope exploration will be just as cool as freelancer...
    I remember playing freelancer and going to all sorts of cool places... Also fighting pirates beside a neutron star and colliding in to it since its completely black and hard to tell from the background.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Starlight on August 12, 2013, 02:39:50 AM
    I keep checking here weekly like some kind of hopeful ritual. z: )

    It's oddly excited me just to know that hyperspace will be implemented like that of Star Control II... I loved that game.  I remember when I picked that up as a teenager from the Washington (original UK, not US) Computer Fair, back when that used to be a thing (before we had Ebuyer and Steam)  having only previously played the original game on the Sega Megadrive (aka Genesis.)  Running on my 386, it completely blew my mind and along with analogue-joystick using flight/spaceflight sim games firmly convinced me of the superiority of PC gaming.  I always thought there should be more like SC2 and there just never was. 

    Now I'm watching the development of a new game with superior technology and even more elements that I like.  It's been worth the wait. 

    Though now I might have to go and find The Ur-Quan Masters, the fan-remake, just to get a fix... z: )

    I'd also like to reiterate what others have said.  I'm super glad that I'll only have to be messing with the campaign folder to get my mod working with the new version, but if more needs to break in time, it just plain needs to break.  Probably better to take the elasterplast off quickly. 
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: rex on August 12, 2013, 08:33:44 AM
    Weekly...

    Checking here weekly. Yes, am only checking in weekly to see if there has been a new release. More than that would just be crazy. 

    yes.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Foxer360 on August 12, 2013, 08:41:21 AM
    @rex
    I feels yah brah.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on August 12, 2013, 01:10:05 PM
    Ha, I have to check daily, it's my duty as a moderator. So, I'm not crazy for the game!  It's not as if I just became a moderator because I was checking daily for updates anyway...


    To make checking a bit easier for everyone: Closed until the next update arrives.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 15, 2013, 08:21:50 PM
    Updated.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: NITROtbomb on August 15, 2013, 08:38:56 PM
    wow new ships, cant wait to see them :P

    does that mean you have added tug boats?

    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on August 15, 2013, 09:00:09 PM
    Quote
    void removeSpawnPoint(SpawnPointPlugin point)
    Yay!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Psiyon on August 15, 2013, 10:32:50 PM
    I love the idea of making phase ships faster and more maneuverable while in P-space. I actually did a test with something similar a while back (except it was like, +200 speed), and the results were really fun.

    It's nice to finally see some of those old ships in the graphics folder be put into the game. Especially interesting is how they're useful only in the campaign, rather than combat. Would be cool if you could find a way to re-purpose those munition ships in a similar way; I've always loved their sprites. Maybe they could give a fleet-wide CR bonus by providing efficient supply distribution, or something.

    Also, any chance of a screenshot of the new star graphics?

    (And thanks for adding in my suggestions for weapon type damage modifiers. <3)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: FlashFrozen on August 15, 2013, 11:15:00 PM
    Mmm, finally a pd hint that only makes it hit missiles,
    And just wondering, would the Tug/ Navigation skills, only make ships travel between systems faster only? ( means uses fuel faster but gets there faster)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on August 15, 2013, 11:27:01 PM
    Quote
    Mmm, finally a pd hint that only makes it hit missiles
    Yeah, that's great. 

    But are we going to get a similar flag to tell certain weapons not to engage those targets (unless the PD flag is set via script)?  That's definitely on my wish-list, personally; tired of watching weapons try to kill drones instead of killing the mothership. 

    Does the fighter-PD state cover Drones as well?  If not, it really should, since they have the same issues.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Chronosfear on August 15, 2013, 11:43:09 PM
    yeah,pd changes. . i like them. :)
    wouldn't it be great if there was something similar to other weapons : can't target fighters and so on?

    chronosfear

     
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Sproginator on August 16, 2013, 12:11:28 AM
    Fantastic, as soon as this hits I'll probably end up modding again :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on August 16, 2013, 02:27:43 AM
    Quote
    Adjusted base travel speed (increased)
    Removed travel speed bonus for not being near a planet

    Any special reason for this or just streamlining?
    Does that result in a net increase or decrease of inter-planet travel speed?

    Quote
    Available in Askonia, other places

    Oho!

    Quote
    Repair mechanics:

        "Emergency repairs" fleetwide stat; starts at 5, supply use for these repairs doesn't affect logistics
        Maximum total repairs performed (in supplies/day) are emergency repairs + unused logistics capacity (i.e. if "emergency repairs" are at 5, and the logistics use is 10/25, maximum total repairs per day are 20.)

    When looking at the Logistics Rating, isn't that a tiny bit confusing? If I get this correctly, you could have 99% or even (just) 100% LR and your fleet could only do emergency repairs. Which is not what 100% LR would imply to a new player. Or can you somehow force your fleet to exceed the LR with repairs? Uh...or is that was it does normally, and you can forbid it?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: PCCL on August 16, 2013, 02:46:52 AM
    hmm... I was wondering why it didn't just say Corvus...

    could it be?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Okim on August 16, 2013, 02:58:48 AM
    Great news about built-in hull mods! Also a construction rig and tow - man the sound are cool. I imagine how modding community will burst with lots of grav boats and mechanoid factions when 0.6a comes out...

    What i wonder about - have you looked into convoys not delivering RESOURCE type resources to bases ( i mean those that are added through 'addItem')? And these RESOURCE type items are also not being salvageable, which is not good :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: mercy on August 16, 2013, 05:21:26 AM
    Wow two years since 0.34. You are definitely taking your time!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Psigun on August 16, 2013, 09:34:14 AM
    Sounds great, I'm waiting with bated breath. I love how non-combat mechanics are starting to trickle into the design with mechanics like towing and construction rigs.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Wyvern on August 16, 2013, 10:08:35 AM
    • Hulls can now have built-in hullmods
    Awesome!
    • Added PD_ONLY weapon hint
    More Awesome!
    • MutableStat getBeamDamageTakenMult();
    • MutableStat getMissileDamageTakenMult();
    • MutableStat getProjectileDamageTakenMult(); // non-missile, non-dps
    • MutableStat getEnergyDamageTakenMult();
    • MutableStat getKineticDamageTakenMult();
    • MutableStat getHighExplosiveDamageTakenMult();
    • MutableStat getFragmentationDamageTakenMult();
    Does this mean we can now change how the damage types work?  Maybe make a ship where high explosive damage deals 200% to shields but only 50% to armor?
    • Added ScopeDescription.ALL_FIGHTERS
    Yay!
    • "Deflection" (Evasive Action level 10 perk) now correctly reduces damage taken instead of doubling it. Ouch.
    And this one, I think, speaks to how powerful the level 5 Evasive Action perk is, and how unimportant the base ability of the skill is.  Were I redesigning skills, I'd swap those - make it so each level of evasive action grants +7.5% maneuverability, and the level 5 perk is 50% reduced damage to engines.  If this were a skill that people regularly put ten points in, someone would (hopefully!) have noticed this before now.

    * * *

    Quote
    Mmm, finally a pd hint that only makes it hit missiles
    Yeah, that's great.  

    But are we going to get a similar flag to tell certain weapons not to engage those targets (unless the PD flag is set via script)?  That's definitely on my wish-list, personally; tired of watching weapons try to kill drones instead of killing the mothership.  

    Does the fighter-PD state cover Drones as well?  If not, it really should, since they have the same issues.
    I'm pretty sure weapons set as "Strike" won't target fighters.  (Or frigates?  Not sure...)  Could be mistaken, though, but there's at least something in the system that prevents the AI from, say, using torpedos against fighters.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on August 16, 2013, 10:32:16 AM
    Quote
    I'm pretty sure weapons set as "Strike" won't target fighters.  (Or frigates?  Not sure...)  Could be mistaken, though, but there's at least something in the system that prevents the AI from, say, using torpedos against fighters.
    STRIKE causes the AI to use the weapon in pretty specific ways, unfortunately.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 16, 2013, 11:19:40 AM
    does that mean you have added tug boats?

    Right, the Ox-class Tug.

    It's nice to finally see some of those old ships in the graphics folder be put into the game. Especially interesting is how they're useful only in the campaign, rather than combat. Would be cool if you could find a way to re-purpose those munition ships in a similar way; I've always loved their sprites. Maybe they could give a fleet-wide CR bonus by providing efficient supply distribution, or something.

    Yeah, that could definitely work.

    Also, any chance of a screenshot of the new star graphics?

    Not quite yet, the graphics may get another pass, though it was "ready" enough to mention in the notes.


    And just wondering, would the Tug/ Navigation skills, only make ships travel between systems faster only? ( means uses fuel faster but gets there faster)

    The tug affects both in-system and hyperspace travel. Though in-system it doesn't use fuel.


    But are we going to get a similar flag to tell certain weapons not to engage those targets (unless the PD flag is set via script)?  That's definitely on my wish-list, personally; tired of watching weapons try to kill drones instead of killing the mothership. 

    Maybe. Definitely not in 0.6a, though.

    Does the fighter-PD state cover Drones as well?  If not, it really should, since they have the same issues.

    If the drone is a fighter, yes. Which is pretty much always the case.


    Quote
    Adjusted base travel speed (increased)
    Removed travel speed bonus for not being near a planet

    Any special reason for this or just streamlining?
    Does that result in a net increase or decrease of inter-planet travel speed?

    More just streamlining/preparing for some future stuff. Right now it's about the same in terms of actual speed, maybe a bit faster near planets and a bit slower away from them.


    Quote
    Available in Askonia, other places

    Oho!

    "Other places" was just my way of saying boardable, delivered to stations randomly, etc.

    Quote
    Repair mechanics:

        "Emergency repairs" fleetwide stat; starts at 5, supply use for these repairs doesn't affect logistics
        Maximum total repairs performed (in supplies/day) are emergency repairs + unused logistics capacity (i.e. if "emergency repairs" are at 5, and the logistics use is 10/25, maximum total repairs per day are 20.)

    When looking at the Logistics Rating, isn't that a tiny bit confusing? If I get this correctly, you could have 99% or even (just) 100% LR and your fleet could only do emergency repairs. Which is not what 100% LR would imply to a new player. Or can you somehow force your fleet to exceed the LR with repairs? Uh...or is that was it does normally, and you can forbid it?

    I see what you're saying. Basically, 100% LR can mean a range of things, which is why there's also a bar indicating just how much logistics capacity is being used. 10/20 and 20/20 are both 100%, but the first one means there's 10 supply units worth of headroom. So, if you're at 20/20 (or above), only emergency repair are possible. If you're at 10/20, emergency + 10 repairs are possible.

    The control over this consists of designating ships as a logistical priority and suspending repairs. Presumably, repairs are a complex enough business logsitically that you can't push it beyond a certain point and get results. (Did consider + try having direct control over repair expenditures, but it was pretty much a chore and didn't bring much of interest to the table, never mind extra UI stuff.)

    What i wonder about - have you looked into convoys not delivering RESOURCE type resources to bases ( i mean those that are added through 'addItem')? And these RESOURCE type items are also not being salvageable, which is not good :)

    Yeah, that should be fixed. Didn't test it, but...


    Does this mean we can now change how the damage types work?  Maybe make a ship where high explosive damage deals 200% to shields but only 50% to armor?

    Hmm. This brings up an interesting point, the way these are set up affects *all* damage taken. Which isn't all that interesting; a hullmod such as "ablative armor" wouldn't want to reduce damage taken by shields, for example, and it seems that would come up in most cases.

    So, just added:
    MutableStat getBeamShieldDamageTakenMult();
    MutableStat getMissileShieldDamageTakenMult();
    MutableStat getProjectileShieldDamageTakenMult();
    MutableStat getEnergyShieldDamageTakenMult();
    MutableStat getKineticShieldDamageTakenMult();
    MutableStat getHighExplosiveShieldDamageTakenMult();
    MutableStat getFragmentationShieldDamageTakenMult();

    And made the original methods apply to both hull and armor. Ideally, there'd perhaps be a way to separate armor and hull here too, but that's a little more involved.


    • "Deflection" (Evasive Action level 10 perk) now correctly reduces damage taken instead of doubling it. Ouch.
    And this one, I think, speaks to how powerful the level 5 Evasive Action perk is, and how unimportant the base ability of the skill is.  Were I redesigning skills, I'd swap those - make it so each level of evasive action grants +7.5% maneuverability, and the level 5 perk is 50% reduced damage to engines.  If this were a skill that people regularly put ten points in, someone would (hopefully!) have noticed this before now.

    You know, they actually started out reversed. I don't think it'd make a difference to the overall power of the skill, though, since if you have 10 points in it, you have all the effects in either case.

    I've got half a mind to start a new thread about the combat skills, to get a feel for if there's a general consensus about things being mandatory/not worth it... probably wouldn't get to any serious balancing for 0.6a, but it might be good to get that conversation started regardless.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Wyvern on August 16, 2013, 11:42:54 AM
    Does this mean we can now change how the damage types work?  Maybe make a ship where high explosive damage deals 200% to shields but only 50% to armor?

    Hmm. This brings up an interesting point, the way these are set up affects *all* damage taken. Which isn't all that interesting; a hullmod such as "ablative armor" wouldn't want to reduce damage taken by shields, for example, and it seems that would come up in most cases.

    So, just added:
    MutableStat getBeamShieldDamageTakenMult();
    MutableStat getMissileShieldDamageTakenMult();
    MutableStat getProjectileShieldDamageTakenMult();
    MutableStat getEnergyShieldDamageTakenMult();
    MutableStat getKineticShieldDamageTakenMult();
    MutableStat getHighExplosiveShieldDamageTakenMult();
    MutableStat getFragmentationShieldDamageTakenMult();

    And made the original methods apply to both hull and armor. Ideally, there'd perhaps be a way to separate armor and hull here too, but that's a little more involved.
    Neat!  And, yes, some way to separate armor and hull damage taken would be nice, but even just this opens up a lot of interesting options.

    • "Deflection" (Evasive Action level 10 perk) now correctly reduces damage taken instead of doubling it. Ouch.
    And this one, I think, speaks to how powerful the level 5 Evasive Action perk is, and how unimportant the base ability of the skill is.  Were I redesigning skills, I'd swap those - make it so each level of evasive action grants +7.5% maneuverability, and the level 5 perk is 50% reduced damage to engines.  If this were a skill that people regularly put ten points in, someone would (hopefully!) have noticed this before now.

    You know, they actually started out reversed. I don't think it'd make a difference to the overall power of the skill, though, since if you have 10 points in it, you have all the effects in either case.

    I've got half a mind to start a new thread about the combat skills, to get a feel for if there's a general consensus about things being mandatory/not worth it... probably wouldn't get to any serious balancing for 0.6a, but it might be good to get that conversation started regardless.
    That would be an interesting thread; for an example, I strongly prefer to use shield-tank-y ships, preferably with 360 degree shields, at which point... well, you can see how that would lead to feeling that the Evasive Action skill is only worth taking for its level five perk.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on August 16, 2013, 11:51:08 AM
    Quote
    Neat!  And, yes, some way to separate armor and hull damage taken would be nice, but even just this opens up a lot of interesting options.
    +1; so glad to see armor / shield damage got separated out :)

    Quote
    Maybe. Definitely not in 0.6a, though.
    Bummer, really tired of watching slow turrets try to engage stuff they'll never hit while ignoring stuff they're designed to kill.  I don't suppose STRIKE + USE_VS_FRIGATES could do that?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Wyvern on August 16, 2013, 12:10:33 PM
    Quote
    Maybe. Definitely not in 0.6a, though.
    Bummer, really tired of watching slow turrets try to engage stuff they'll never hit while ignoring stuff they're designed to kill.  I don't suppose STRIKE + USE_VS_FRIGATES could do that?
    Well, there's also the overkill solution of writing your own autofire AI for those guns.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on August 16, 2013, 12:44:09 PM
    Which I'll probably do; actually, if the AI just has to set a CombatEntity as the target and the rest of the gun's behavior is controlled by the engine unless overridden by a behavior script, it should be fairly trivial, the only issue being getting whether a target is in the valid arc segment for the weapon- not quite sure how to do that math :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Rec on August 17, 2013, 09:12:29 AM
    Ha, I have to check daily, it's my duty as a moderator. So, I'm not crazy for the game!  It's not as if I just became a moderator because I was checking daily for updates anyway...


    To make checking a bit easier for everyone: Closed until the next update arrives.
    somehow, when i read that, first thing that came to mind was "watch out guys, we have a tsundere mod over here"

    glad to see the advances and improvements, loved playing this game and cant wait to return to try the new things, will have to make a thread later about how/where to download as well as i need to find my game key...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xanderh on August 17, 2013, 09:21:15 AM
    glad to see the advances and improvements, loved playing this game and cant wait to return to try the new things, will have to make a thread later about how/where to download as well as i need to find my game key...

    Keep in mind that the update isn't out yet. It probably won't be for a little while.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: icepick37 on August 17, 2013, 11:07:35 AM
    Quote
    Up to 4/3/2/1 cables can be applied to capital ships/cruisers/destroyers/frigates at a time
    Does that mean you can boost 4 capital ships at a time? Or that a capital ship gets 4 to it's speed?

    Also monofilament sounds so awesome, haha.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on August 17, 2013, 11:08:55 AM
    I'd expect that you can boost a capital ship to 4.  I don't think the Ox could boost 4 capital ships at one time when it can only boost 1 frigate. ;)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Voyager I on August 17, 2013, 12:31:55 PM
    I read it as the maximum number of tugboats that could be attached to a given ship size, with each individual tug providing a single cable.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 17, 2013, 12:36:34 PM
    I don't suppose STRIKE + USE_VS_FRIGATES could do that?

    Probably would, actually. Wouldn't target fighters, though.


    Ox-class Tug: right, up to 4 can boost a capital ship.

    Also monofilament sounds so awesome, haha.

    Love that word. And "gantry", too.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: icepick37 on August 17, 2013, 12:47:52 PM

    I read it as the maximum number of tugboats that could be attached to a given ship size, with each individual tug providing a single cable.
    Ox-class Tug: right, up to 4 can boost a capital ship.
    Hrm...   not sure if should feel dumb now, haha. Thanks for the clarification, both of you.  :)

    Love that word. And "gantry", too.
    Haha, nice. I had to look that one up.  :p

    Perhaps you should rename the tug if it's using monofilaments. Maybe something spidery? Silkworm is a little TOO milquetoast, haha, but it's what first came to mind.  :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 17, 2013, 12:52:04 PM
    Monofilament doesn't necessarily imply "thin", though. I think you're thinking "monomolecular".
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: icepick37 on August 17, 2013, 12:53:47 PM
    Well that's true, I GUESS.  :)

    I'll just envision a very large monofilament now and it'll make sense, AND give me a little chuckle.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: darkova on August 17, 2013, 04:18:37 PM
    so considering their purpose does this make the tugs one of the fastest ships in the game currently? (not including strike craft)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 17, 2013, 04:28:34 PM
    so considering their purpose does this make the tugs one of the fastest ships in the game currently? (not including strike craft)

    No, they're on the lower end of the frigate class as far as speed, in both travel and combat. About the only frigate they might be hauling around is the Brawler.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on August 17, 2013, 04:40:12 PM
    Though this is from the older patch notes (the ones from July), I noticed the thing about weapons being used as decorative engine flares. Does that mean modders could create maneuvering thrusters on ships? So, if a ship turned left, all the "weapons" on the right side would fire and give the impression of thrusters turning the ship to the left, perhaps complemented by another set of "weapons" on the lower left side to push the flank around the ship's center of gravity?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 17, 2013, 04:59:22 PM
    Though this is from the older patch notes (the ones from July), I noticed the thing about weapons being used as decorative engine flares. Does that mean modders could create maneuvering thrusters on ships? So, if a ship turned left, all the "weapons" on the right side would fire and give the impression of thrusters turning the ship to the left, perhaps complemented by another set of "weapons" on the lower left side to push the flank around the ship's center of gravity?

    Yep. The ShipAPI was also expanded to provide engine data that would make this easier to do - you can tell when/where a ship is turning/strafing/etc.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: zakastra on August 18, 2013, 03:37:16 AM
    Keep up the amazing work Alex, you never fail to impress with your dedication to making a superb game and an ubeliveably good engine.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Cycerin on August 18, 2013, 06:54:31 AM
    The dinner table is getting decked...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Linnis on August 18, 2013, 04:22:28 PM
    Can we eat yet? can we?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Uomoz on August 18, 2013, 06:19:25 PM
    Wash your hands cousin, grandfather is coming with the main course.  8)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BrickedKeyboard on August 18, 2013, 07:43:21 PM
    How will Tugboats be used?  I seemed to have missed to post that explains what they are for.

    When you board a ship and capture it, or if a ship gets below a certain amount of C.R., will it not have working engines?  Is that what tugs are for?


    Or is to speed up slow ships in hyperspace/In system travel?

    If there's a mechanic to assign ships to tow others, does this mean that any ship with the relevant property can be a tugboard?  (cue every OP modded super capital ship having a tow cable as well as a flight deck as usual)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on August 18, 2013, 07:47:50 PM
    The Tugs will help with Hyperspace travel.  I'm not quite sure of in-system travel, though - I don't think it does anything there.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: PCCL on August 18, 2013, 07:59:42 PM
    wait wat?

    tugs increase max burn, which is the intra system travel drive, no?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on August 19, 2013, 02:42:47 AM
    Boys, boys, how come you don't have a photographic memory of every little thing Alex said, ever? I am disappointed.

    It's both:
    Travel speed and combat speed are now completely separate - there's a "maximum burn" stat, a value from 1 to 10 that determines travel speed. Normal and hyper travel speed are at this point the same, though I can see adding a stat to differentiate those at some point.

    Which leads me to the question: 10 is the maximum number without any bonuses, right? Navigation skill or something of the like can bring it to 11 and beyond?



    I see what you're saying. Basically, 100% LR can mean a range of things, which is why there's also a bar indicating just how much logistics capacity is being used. 10/20 and 20/20 are both 100%, but the first one means there's 10 supply units worth of headroom. So, if you're at 20/20 (or above), only emergency repair are possible. If you're at 10/20, emergency + 10 repairs are possible.

    Then let me ask, Alex: Why not allow the LR rating to go above 100%? A value of more than 100% means that you've got repair capability to spare, exactly 100% means most likely that you are doing some heavy repair but are otherwise fine, and below 100% indicates a need to intervene.

    You once wrote:

    Quote
    First of all, the logistical situation in the fleet is reduced to a single number. How it got there is another matter, but it’s very easy to see how you’re doing at a glance.

    Which I very much liked and which would be a shame to macerate into two numbers without real need.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: mendonca on August 19, 2013, 03:35:01 AM
    I very much enjoy all this conversation around the new mechanics, but feel hopelessly out of touch with how they will actually work - I feel like on the wrong end of some joke - where everybody else is PRETENDING they know what they are talking about.

    Basically, I can't wait to actually play it all and finally figure it out :D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: SainnQ on August 19, 2013, 04:23:16 AM
    This is probably going to sound stupid.

    But are we actually allowed to download In-Dev updates to Starsector?

    Not In Dev mods, but the stuff Alex is working on currently.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Mattk50 on August 19, 2013, 05:37:48 AM
    This is probably going to sound stupid.

    But are we actually allowed to download In-Dev updates to Starsector?

    Not In Dev mods, but the stuff Alex is working on currently.

    You arent disallowed.

    go ahead ::)

    edit: I admit it, this post has been significantly unhelpful
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: SainnQ on August 19, 2013, 06:26:27 AM
    This is probably going to sound stupid.

    But are we actually allowed to download In-Dev updates to Starsector?

    Not In Dev mods, but the stuff Alex is working on currently.

    You arent disallowed.

    go ahead ::)

    Edit; So does the download link for the client on the buy page not include the hyperspace changes etc? That's what I wanted to get a peak at
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Wyvern on August 19, 2013, 07:59:27 AM
    This is probably going to sound stupid.

    But are we actually allowed to download In-Dev updates to Starsector?

    Not In Dev mods, but the stuff Alex is working on currently.

    You arent disallowed.

    go ahead ::)

    Edit; So does the download link for the client on the buy page not include the hyperspace changes etc? That's what I wanted to get a peak at
    Mattk50's answer was entirely unhelpful - there is no such download to be found.  We'll get .6 when it's ready, and not before.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 19, 2013, 09:15:41 AM
    Then let me ask, Alex: Why not allow the LR rating to go above 100%? A value of more than 100% means that you've got repair capability to spare, exactly 100% means most likely that you are doing some heavy repair but are otherwise fine, and below 100% indicates a need to intervene.

    You once wrote:

    Quote
    First of all, the logistical situation in the fleet is reduced to a single number. How it got there is another matter, but it’s very easy to see how you’re doing at a glance.

    Which I very much liked and which would be a shame to macerate into two numbers without real need.

    You could let it go above 100%, but I think that implies you actually being better off when it's >100%, while there's no actual bonus for that. "100%" is actually more representative of the immediate logistical situation. I don't think it's a huge difference either way, but my preference is for capping it at 100%.

    There's a progress bar right next to the rating, so I think it's all quite clear, at least once you figure out how the whole thing works. I expect it might be a little difficult to grasp right away if you've had no prior exposure to the ideas, though. Going to have lots of tooltips to help with that.

    Basically, the bar is the raw, "real" number, while the % rating is a quick distillation of the effect it actually has. That bit of the UI isn't fully wrapped up yet, though.


    I very much enjoy all this conversation around the new mechanics, but feel hopelessly out of touch with how they will actually work - I feel like on the wrong end of some joke - where everybody else is PRETENDING they know what they are talking about.

    Basically, I can't wait to actually play it all and finally figure it out :D

    :D


    Edit; So does the download link for the client on the buy page not include the hyperspace changes etc? That's what I wanted to get a peak at
    Mattk50's answer was entirely unhelpful - there is no such download to be found.  We'll get .6 when it's ready, and not before.

    Right!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Madgamer13 on August 19, 2013, 11:25:58 AM
    If I understand Alex's explanation of the logistics system, it isn't a percentage on repair systems alone, but the supplies used to support all the systems of a fleet.  If you think of logistics from the standpoint of repair parts, food for crew, munitions for ship weapons and so forth, you can place a percentage of how efficiently these items are being distributed around the fleet.

    A logistics rating of 100% would dictate that the crew is sufficiently moving all the fleet's resources for maximum effect around the current size of the fleet.  A larger fleet would possibly increase fleet logistics capacity, while increasing the demands of the logistics system appropriately, requiring more crew to manage the efficiency of resource movement within a fleet.  The actual percentage for fleet logistics would never go beyond maximum efficiency for current fleet and crew setup however.

    I like this idea, a logistics rating tied to crew can mean that casualties really mean something if the fleet finds it harder to keep their ships operational due to lack of crew.  Lose enough crew and your huge stockpile of supplies wont really matter, since it can't move on it's own.

    Am I anywhere close to your ideal of a logistics system, Alex?

    I'm looking forward to the next patch and content release. :]
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 20, 2013, 03:48:53 PM
    Spoiler
    If I understand Alex's explanation of the logistics system, it isn't a percentage on repair systems alone, but the supplies used to support all the systems of a fleet.  If you think of logistics from the standpoint of repair parts, food for crew, munitions for ship weapons and so forth, you can place a percentage of how efficiently these items are being distributed around the fleet.

    A logistics rating of 100% would dictate that the crew is sufficiently moving all the fleet's resources for maximum effect around the current size of the fleet.  A larger fleet would possibly increase fleet logistics capacity, while increasing the demands of the logistics system appropriately, requiring more crew to manage the efficiency of resource movement within a fleet.  The actual percentage for fleet logistics would never go beyond maximum efficiency for current fleet and crew setup however.

    I like this idea, a logistics rating tied to crew can mean that casualties really mean something if the fleet finds it harder to keep their ships operational due to lack of crew.  Lose enough crew and your huge stockpile of supplies wont really matter, since it can't move on it's own.

    Am I anywhere close to your ideal of a logistics system, Alex?
    [close]

    Hi there!

    You've mostly got it, though adding more crew doesn't improve your logistics rating - that's actually governed by your character's skills. Some crew is required to take advantage of the logistics stat, though - at the moment, that's set to 1 crew/marine per point. That represents needing people to coordinate stuff, pilot supply shuttles, that sort of thing. It's not exactly a major consideration, though, since almost any fleet is going to meet those requirements.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: FlashFrozen on August 20, 2013, 04:09:14 PM

    Hi there!

    You've mostly got it, though adding more crew doesn't improve your logistics rating - that's actually governed by your character's skills. Some crew is required to take advantage of the logistics stat, though - at the moment, that's set to 1 crew/marine per point. That represents needing people to coordinate stuff, pilot supply shuttles, that sort of thing. It's not exactly a major consideration, though, since almost any fleet is going to meet those requirements.

    Just as a minor question, so if we have a 0 crew fleet (unmanned) we'll be unable to repair or will the logistics stat have a bare minimum even when undermanned?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 20, 2013, 04:10:29 PM
    Emergency repairs don't count against it, and you start out with a base capability in that. Also, you count as 1 crew :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nanostrike on August 20, 2013, 05:15:12 PM
    so considering their purpose does this make the tugs one of the fastest ships in the game currently? (not including strike craft)

    No, they're on the lower end of the frigate class as far as speed, in both travel and combat. About the only frigate they might be hauling around is the Brawler.

    Good to see that the Brawler is still more-or-less a slow-as-molasses joke ship.  My entire Starsector worldview was shaken when the Omen became viable.

    I can just imagine the Brawler being towed around by Tugs, using up all that fuel, and STILL being unable to actually catch anything in battle that can't swat it down like a fly.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on August 20, 2013, 05:21:16 PM
    Gave the Brawler Burn Drive over here.  Problem solved  ;)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Mattk50 on August 20, 2013, 11:43:45 PM
    I wish there were more mid-tech fleets in corvus to fight. The independents are so rare and there's just not enough hammerheads, eagles etc to actually fight with. And they kinda suck now when i try to use them, so i just dont see em.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Okim on August 22, 2013, 02:01:36 AM
    Can we have a screenshot/concept art of the TUG? Wondering how its cables are represented.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Sproginator on August 22, 2013, 02:41:03 AM
    Can we have a screenshop/concept art of the TUG? Wondering how its cables are represented.

    Agreed
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on August 22, 2013, 05:14:22 AM
    It only works in the campaign, I doubt that it has any graphical representation there.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Okim on August 22, 2013, 05:40:47 AM
    I know. I just want to get some hint on how that cable looks like on the TUG`s sprite.

    I have a couple of concepts for the TUGs for Ironclads and i just wish to get some extra inspiration ;)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on August 22, 2013, 06:17:59 AM
    You mean this sprite?

    (http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8283/5t36.png)
    There's no cable to be seen. Since the cable can not be deployed while you can see the sprite, why would it be visible?

    Here's some concept art (but again, without cable; the art is older than the idea, I believe):
    Spoiler
    (http://i.imgur.com/1f5WR.jpg)
    [close]
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Okim on August 22, 2013, 06:33:58 AM
    That`s quite a small TUG ship. I`ve imagined it to be much larger. About the size of Lasher probably.

    Thanks.

    EDITED: This TUG seems to be designed to push rather than pull, so yes - monofilament cable is probably a recent idea.

    Why i asked for the sprite and cable - cause i would like to make a tough ship with a thick cable with a magnetic clamp on a huge gear on the rear of the ship. Just wanted to get some inspiration...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on August 22, 2013, 07:47:16 AM
    Alex could make it have a beam weapon that does no damage and is aimed at a ship behind it, when the ships enter a battle, showing the tug at work.  Other than calling up a beam / making the weapon fire on command, it's almost certainly possible to show this already :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Okim on August 22, 2013, 08:05:45 AM
    That`s what i ment actually:

    Spoiler
    (http://www.rocky-road.com/media/csi_2500.JPG)
    [close]

    But on a ship-scale :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on August 22, 2013, 08:39:53 AM
    This TUG seems to be designed to push rather than pull

    Both is possible. It reminds me a lot of Homeworld's salvage corvette, which is capable of both pushing and pulling via the same mysterious energy field - or might it have been a matrix of monofilament strings all along?
    (http://shipyards.relicnews.com/kushan/salvage_corvette2.gif) (http://shipyards.relicnews.com/kushan/salvage_corvette5.gif)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on August 22, 2013, 09:19:05 AM
    The beam could just use a texture that makes it look like a cable.  Ideally, a quad of a "magnet" graphic could be rendered at the end of the "line".  It wouldn't do cute rope physics or whatever, but it'd look OK.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Linnis on August 22, 2013, 12:58:44 PM
    This TUG seems to be designed to push rather than pull

    Both is possible. It reminds me a lot of Homeworld's salvage corvette, which is capable of both pushing and pulling via the same mysterious energy field - or might it have been a matrix of monofilament strings all along?

    Magnets, you cant explain them.

    Anyways, I dont think "mysterious energy fields" would seem real nice looking from a 2d perspective.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 22, 2013, 01:09:46 PM
    It only works in the campaign, I doubt that it has any graphical representation there.

    Correct! IMO, there's quite enough stuff going on in combat, and adding content to the campaign makes more sense.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: K-64 on August 22, 2013, 05:46:26 PM
    Both is possible. It reminds me a lot of Homeworld's salvage corvette, which is capable of both pushing and pulling via the same mysterious energy field - or might it have been a matrix of monofilament strings all along?
    Spoiler
    (http://shipyards.relicnews.com/kushan/salvage_corvette2.gif) (http://shipyards.relicnews.com/kushan/salvage_corvette5.gif)
    [close]

    Just gonna hop here and say (off-topicly) that it's probably magnets for the salvagers. At least, it makes sense to me for it to be that.

    On-topic though... don't suppose we could get a look-see at that shiny new ship sprites? That is, if there are new sprites for them
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Madgamer13 on August 22, 2013, 08:05:02 PM
    /engage cheesy joke mode!

    If tugs bearing massive magnets were to appear in Starsector... how would they work?  *bah-dum-tsh*

    Maybe if magnets were implemented into Starsector, we'd see some... Magnet on ship action!

    Giggidy.

    /Cheesy joke mode disengaged, venting flux

    At this moment I do not really care for in game representation of the tug's ability to, uuh, tug.  Microfilament lines, chunky ropes, magically magnetic hull plating, duct tape?  All the same to me really, I'm sure that could be finalised later, once we can get a feel of the tugs themselves.

    I'm more impatient for the curious features lined up for the next patch than anything else.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: MCWarhammer on August 23, 2013, 08:33:49 PM
    Quote
    I'm more impatient for the curious features lined up for the next patch than anything else.

    I'm more impatient for the whole shabang to be released.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on August 24, 2013, 05:59:24 AM
    since tug work in hyperspace it actually does not need any sprite or field GFX, you can't see it anyway.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: LazyWizard on August 24, 2013, 09:38:42 AM
    I've been compiling a list of questions for a while but never got around to writing a post for them, so my apologies for the sudden deluge:










    I know I've called the last several patches something along the lines of "the ultimate modding update", but multiple systems, custom ship and weapon AI, persistent inter-mod data storage, built-in and campaign-level hullmods, access to the render loop, custom entity interaction popups and interface elements, and a huge portion of the API request thread added? I don't see how you can possibly top that in the future. ;)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: silentstormpt on August 24, 2013, 09:50:40 AM
    Perhaps an Economy, Station Battles, Colonization?

    This is only 0.6a, theres quite alot before 1.0  ;)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Ravendarke on August 24, 2013, 09:56:47 AM
    Or blue prints, ship construction, research..
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 24, 2013, 11:26:34 AM
    • I know the campaign map sticks in memory during combat, but how persistent are custom UI elements? Are they created once at game load and last for the whole session, or are they recreated after each battle?
    • Will we be able to render things in combat, or is it campaign-only for now?

    Just to be clear, the custom UI elements are only available within an InteractionDialog. So, that'll get instantiated whenever you create a new dialog.

    You can't, for example, add a custom widget to be shown as part of the standard campaign UI.

    • You mentioned potentially adding code for text rendering a while back. Have you decided if that will be in for .6a?

    Still a maybe.

    • With the new fighter docking methods: can those be used outside of a custom AI implementation? Would it be possible to create decorative docking for things like cargo shuttles using them?

    Possibly. I could be missing something, since I haven't actually used it for that, but I think you could spawn a custom ship (say, one with CollisionClass.NONE) and then land it wherever.

    • Do loadjson/csv have the same merge behavior as the game's loader? Is there a way to load the entries from a certain mod directory only?

    They don't do any merging. The intention here is to enable mods to provide their own data files. If you try to load a file that's present in multiple mods, it'll grab the first one it finds.


    • If I'm reading the notes right, sector messages are now system-specific. Is there a way to broadcast directly to the player, or would we need to use sector.getPlayerFleet().getContainingLocation() to broadcast to the current system?

    The "system specific" logic is applied before calling addMessage(), not within addMessage().


    • I apologize as this one's more of a feature request than a question, but since we can't guarantee that a system's spawn points will be called on a certain frame, could we have a plugin with a universal advance() and access to this frame's InputEventAPIs? I suppose we could just use an invisible CustomUIPanelPlugin, but that seems a bit hack-ish.

    If you add an EveryFrameScript to the SectorAPI, it'll run every frame. If you add it to a LocationAPI, it'll run every frame the location's advance() runs.

    • Is there a chance you'd be willing to release the new api.jar once you've reached the bugfixing stage and aren't adding any new features to .6a? While we wouldn't be able to test our work in-game, it'd be great to get a jump start on updating our mods with the massive API changes so they'll be ready when the update is released. :)

    I don't see why not, with the caveat that things probably would change somewhat, since I tend to add some last-minute modding stuff before a release goes out.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BrickedKeyboard on August 25, 2013, 12:46:47 AM
    Will you have to manually assign tugs to ships?  Or will it be automatic?  (since the algorithm to do it automatically is trivially, just hook to the slowest ship in your fleet that can accept a tug and doesn't have too many tugs already connected)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on August 25, 2013, 02:38:13 AM
    Will you have to manually assign tugs to ships?  Or will it be automatic?  (since the algorithm to do it automatically is trivially, just hook to the slowest ship in your fleet that can accept a tug and doesn't have too many tugs already connected)
    It's automatic, like you said.  Slowest ship.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: silentstormpt on August 25, 2013, 06:38:25 AM
    I don't see why not, with the caveat that things probably would change somewhat, since I tend to add some last-minute modding stuff before a release goes out.

    Even so, last-minute changes wouldnt have that much of an impact, its not like not used to have methods change left and right when coding  :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: pablo on August 27, 2013, 12:27:54 AM
    Is there any way to add some sort marine/bording friget? A marine pod launcher? Or docking attachment to force board a ship during battle? For hit and run purposes or capture/retreat ?

    And can you add a Out of combat phase/clock system ? To hide your fleet size on campaing map ?
    This would be very cool for next update.

    And i have a another idea.

    It is little silly for me to first call a carrier in to caombat and the fighter wings or viceversa. Can you add option to assign a wing to a carrier and call it into battle with incresed command points ?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on August 27, 2013, 03:44:16 AM
    Hey pablo, if you want to make suggestion that are not directly related to the latest patch notes update, please do so in the suggestion subforum (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?board=5.0).
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Wyvern on August 27, 2013, 08:52:11 AM
    • Phase ships:
      • +50 speed/improved acceleration while phased
    Oh hey.  Are these stats moddable?  Does the level 5 helmsmanship perk improve speed while phased?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on August 28, 2013, 02:16:41 AM
    unlikely that one bonuses will improve other bonuses, especially flat vs percent, in other case this will trigger race condition with unpredictable result.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on August 28, 2013, 08:40:20 AM
    • Phase ships:
      • +50 speed/improved acceleration while phased
    Oh hey.  Are these stats moddable?  Does the level 5 helmsmanship perk improve speed while phased?

    It's moddable - done the same way other systems apply stat changes. The helmsmanship perk is unrelated to this.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Mandabar on August 28, 2013, 02:23:38 PM
    This is going to be the biggest update ever. So many changes since the last patch, It's a new game!

    Itsssss HUUUUGGEEEE!!!




    I can't wait for Soon™!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gabriel_Braun on August 28, 2013, 05:06:28 PM
    ^^  That's what she said... ^^
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on August 29, 2013, 12:54:46 AM
    Aaand locked till the next update.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 05, 2013, 12:29:25 PM
    Updated.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Xareh on September 05, 2013, 12:35:55 PM
    Now this has been unlocked, I'd like to say this all looks really amazing. The new combat sounds are amazing, they sound far heavier and darker, with lovely amounts of bass (my headphones have a tendency to rattle at the lower ends of the bass spectrum, making this sound very real) and this almost looks like a whole new game from the detail in the update. 3 updates in 1 almost (1 misc overhaul, 1 combat feature update + CR, multiple systems + hyperspace etc.)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: icepick37 on September 05, 2013, 12:36:36 PM
    Niiiiice. Improved 'z' targetting sounds awesome.

    Can't wait for the patch to drop.  :D  You know how I love me some hound. I mean Starsector.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on September 05, 2013, 12:46:57 PM
    Awesome.  That UI work must have been quite a labor, can't wait to see how it looks; great job!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: arcibalde on September 05, 2013, 12:47:37 PM
    I like armor "buff" :D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: mendonca on September 05, 2013, 01:08:25 PM
    Excellent :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Vulpes on September 05, 2013, 01:22:12 PM
    Are there any plans to give AI commanders skill bonuses, and if so will they become stronger over time/successful battles?  I like the vibe of these changes, but they're so numerous now that I don't really feel able to compare them with the current game.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on September 05, 2013, 02:00:38 PM
    Oh, your are working off some things that were going around on the forum for some time. Nice :) Glad to see the armor buff. The changes to the control scheme make sense, the only thing missing now is a instant fire option. Made up your mind on that yet?

    Oh, and can we get a screenshot of the UI redesign?



    Are there any plans to give AI commanders skill bonuses

    Yes, there are long-term plans to do just that, but in what form (and if) it will happen is unclear.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Muffel on September 05, 2013, 02:12:06 PM
    I?m pretty exited to get my hands on this huge step in the development.

    But I?m still hoping we get something to fire guided missiles by only pressing the number key of the weapon group. So an option like auto-fire, but with a different effect.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 05, 2013, 02:44:40 PM
    Oh, your are working off some things that were going around on the forum for some time. Nice :) Glad to see the armor buff. The changes to the control scheme make sense, the only thing missing now is a instant fire option. Made up your mind on that yet?
    But I?m still hoping we get something to fire guided missiles by only pressing the number key of the weapon group. So an option like auto-fire, but with a different effect.

    I did give that a bit of thought. One side effect of the control changes is you can much more easily fire off a missile or two, without extra controls. Say you're firing group 1, and missiles are in group 2 - you just tap 2, then 1, and one missile gets fired w/o any perceptible interruption. Before, doing this was a problem because you'd generally have shift held down and would end up changing autofire settings instead.

    Not to say that a "quickfire" mode won't ever become an option, but it's fairly involved coding-wise and - because of the changes - now much less necessary.


    Oh, and can we get a screenshot of the UI redesign?

    It still needs a few graphical assets. At that point, I was thinking of writing a blog post about it, depending on the timing of when that happens.


    Are there any plans to give AI commanders skill bonuses

    Yes, there are long-term plans to do just that, but in what form (and if) it will happen is unclear.

    Right, that's most likely going to happen, but not for a little while. It's tied in with "proper" fleet generation, a faction mechanics overhaul, etc.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Zaphide on September 05, 2013, 02:51:22 PM
    Really like the combat control scheme changes!

    Any chance of an update to http://fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/ (http://fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/)? :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 05, 2013, 03:06:50 PM
    Updated (http://fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/).

    Also, per LazyWizard's earlier request, here's the current API source (http://www.fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/starfarer.api.zip). It may still change between now and the 0.6a release, but major refactoring is unlikely.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Pepachu on September 05, 2013, 03:10:41 PM
    Not sure if having 2 more +1% talents is a good idea their not really exciting. That said i think all 1% in the technology tree need to have a lvl 5 and 10 bonus at least. Though the old fashion % bonus talent trees are getting phased out and have evolved into giving ability's maybe a little hybrid might be nice. Though that's the least of star-sector problems creating a campaign that has depth, territory(planet) control, bosses, aliens, random procedural generation(map), high difficulty etc.   

    I remember playing EV Nova long time ago and attacking a planet and getting *** haha. If you are ever going to add that maybe when you attack a planet you head to the battlefield and fight waves and waves.  :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: sirboomalot on September 05, 2013, 06:33:44 PM
    pepachu, I'm pretty sure alex isn't adding two 1% talents, he is changing two 2% talents that already exist into 1% talents, which should keep all or most of the bonuses which they already have.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on September 05, 2013, 06:35:16 PM
    Wow, nice!  This (the changeset to the API) is really looking great :)

    Any chance we can see a OrbitalStationInteractionDialogPluginImpl and maybe get a couple of hints about how to build Dialogs via InteractionDialogAPI?

    Also... does removeEntity() in LocationAPI mean that it's going to be possible to remove Stations from Planets?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Dri on September 05, 2013, 07:01:28 PM
    Even with the nerf to the two OP increasing talents they're going to be mandatory. More OP is just way to good to pass up; it means not only better weapons but more hull mods/vents.

    I'm not really sure how the talent system is going to ultimately pan out though, and maybe we're going to eventually max out all talents? If so, the problem isn't so bad and it'll simply dictate that we max those talents out earlier rather than later.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on September 05, 2013, 07:11:42 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G7eDpMGe1k
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 05, 2013, 07:21:10 PM
    Any chance we can see a OrbitalStationInteractionDialogPluginImpl and maybe get a couple of hints about how to build Dialogs via InteractionDialogAPI?

    That should be in the api source zip, linked in my previous post in this thread.

    Also... does removeEntity() in LocationAPI mean that it's going to be possible to remove Stations from Planets?

    Yeah, in theory. Not going to promise that it works because I don't think I've tested it. But if it doesn't, you'll just tell me and I'll fix it in the 0.6.1a release, right? :)


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G7eDpMGe1k

    :)


    Even with the nerf to the two OP increasing talents they're going to be mandatory. More OP is just way to good to pass up; it means not only better weapons but more hull mods/vents.

    I'm not really sure how the talent system is going to ultimately pan out though, and maybe we're going to eventually max out all talents? If so, the problem isn't so bad and it'll simply dictate that we max those talents out earlier rather than later.

    Yeah, this is more of a temporary measure to make those less insane. I think the Technology skills are going to get revamped significantly at some point. Fairly happy with the Combat ones, though.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Zaphide on September 05, 2013, 07:52:36 PM

    Also... does removeEntity() in LocationAPI mean that it's going to be possible to remove Stations from Planets?

    Yeah, in theory. Not going to promise that it works because I don't think I've tested it. But if it doesn't, you'll just tell me and I'll fix it in the 0.6.1a release, right? :)

     :o wow!

    And potentially remove planets from systems? Planet busters? Asteroid-field-creation-device?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 05, 2013, 08:00:12 PM
    Sure, why not? Minus any fancy animations or explosions - that part of the campaign engine isn't exactly fleshed out.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thaago on September 05, 2013, 08:55:46 PM
    Very cool. I'll have to dive into that api tomorrow...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: SainnQ on September 05, 2013, 09:58:37 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G7eDpMGe1k


    Damnit, I just woke up my 2 year old laughing at that ***.

    Thanks Raw.   :-X
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: sdmike1 on September 05, 2013, 11:35:53 PM
    It is a wonderful sight to see the patch notes start with miscellaneous. :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Axiom on September 05, 2013, 11:40:53 PM
    It is a wonderful sight to see the patch notes start with miscellaneous. :)

    Actually I think it starts with "Complete combat sound overhaul". thought its late, so perhaps I am mistaken. ;)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on September 06, 2013, 12:21:51 AM
    "brawler improved" soon will be local "removed herobrine"
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Cycerin on September 06, 2013, 04:46:04 AM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G7eDpMGe1k

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VutA6Bj_ZM

    Thank god for Brawler buffs, by the way. What weapons are on the Elite variant? Maulers? I always found dual heavy MG + annihilator Brawlers to be surprisingly brutal once they actually catch something.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Uomoz on September 06, 2013, 07:38:59 AM
    Wild speculation: tomorrow.  ;D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on September 06, 2013, 08:18:03 AM
    I really do hope so - it's been far too long.  But a worthy wait for a worthy update.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 06, 2013, 08:28:13 AM
    Thank god for Brawler buffs, by the way. What weapons are on the Elite variant? Maulers? I always found dual heavy MG + annihilator Brawlers to be surprisingly brutal once they actually catch something.

    Mauler + HVD + 2x 1-shot Harpoon.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thaago on September 06, 2013, 10:33:32 AM
    Thank god for Brawler buffs, by the way. What weapons are on the Elite variant? Maulers? I always found dual heavy MG + annihilator Brawlers to be surprisingly brutal once they actually catch something.

    Mauler + HVD + 2x 1-shot Harpoon.

    Oooh, nasty :D. Wouldn't want to catch that in the engines.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on September 06, 2013, 10:59:12 AM
    Took a quick look through the API source; not really finding any working example of a Dialog yet. 

    It's hard to tell how we're supposed to structure it atm; it appears we're supposed to set up TextPanelAPI stuff and implement choices through buttons, but the workflow is not terribly obvious to me. 

    Sorry if that just means I'm stupid, I'm reading what's in the API but it's not really making much sense yet how to put it all together and build a simple dialog, like:

    Arrive at <specific> LocationAPI Station --> A new Button there says "Hello World" --> User clicks button --> Dialog responds with "Hello World".

    If I have that much to look at, most of the rest of it's probably just dealing with implementation specifics.  Right now I'm kind of lost trying to figure out the workflow.  It's even more confusing than CharacterCreationPluginImpl was, and there we had a working example :)

    Any chance we can see a working example of this?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 06, 2013, 11:23:04 AM
    Also, per LazyWizard's earlier request, here's the current API source (http://www.fractalsoftworks.com/starfarer.api/starfarer.api.zip). It may still change between now and the 0.6a release, but major refactoring is unlikely.

    Alright.
    1) Download the .zip linked above.
    2) Take a look under com\fs\starfarer\api\impl\campaign
    CoreCampaignPluginImpl.java: selects dialog plugins for various purposes. Mods can provide their own implementation of this to override core dialog plugins.
    PlanetInteractionDialogPluginImpl.java: Simplest dialog, for interaction with a planet - displays some text and the planet, and presents the player with a "Leave" option.

    (Take a look at CoreCampaignPluginImpl.pickInteractionDialogPlugin() to see how a dialog plugin for a specific SectorEntityToken is selected.)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on September 06, 2013, 11:33:42 AM
    Ahhh...

    That's very helpful, thanks much.  So we set up initial options there and so forth and the case system allows for exit or execution of <blah>.

    Sorry for not finding what might seem obvious, I'm doing some work stuff atm, just took a quick peek :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 06, 2013, 11:38:12 AM
    Cool :) Yep, that's pretty much it. The rest is just the various things the VisualPanelAPI, TextPanelAPI, etc let you do to manipulate the dialog.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: LazyWizard on September 06, 2013, 03:06:28 PM
    Also... does removeEntity() in LocationAPI mean that it's going to be possible to remove Stations from Planets?

    Yeah, in theory. Not going to promise that it works because I don't think I've tested it. But if it doesn't, you'll just tell me and I'll fix it in the 0.6.1a release, right? :)

    I can foresee us adding a lot of sanity checks to our code to support this addition, especially for those mods with dynamic systems. :) Does fleet AI automatically compensate for their destination/resupply token being removed?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 06, 2013, 03:31:21 PM
    I can foresee us adding a lot of sanity checks to our code to support this addition, especially for those mods with dynamic systems. :) Does fleet AI automatically compensate for their destination/resupply token being removed?

    It does not, at this point. Shouldn't crash, though - would likely behave as if the token was in the last place it actually existed in.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Dri on September 06, 2013, 09:19:14 PM
    Is that two flight deck carrier gonna make it into the patch? If so, perhaps we could get a preview/spoiler? :D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on September 06, 2013, 09:49:52 PM
    its ok with removal.

    can rendering state\sprite be altered on stations and planets (via API, cos it possible "directly" right now)?

    in such case anyone will be alble to HIDE station and keep its pointer alive as long as needed for compatability (hidden field can be added to vanilla location object for this).

    actually removing anything not really needed as long as developer can just hide something from user and still use it internally.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on September 07, 2013, 07:22:19 AM
    Just checked entire API "source" and noticed zero options for game localization, large amount of strings emdedded into code and there is no option to hook it.

    Suggestion is simple:

    Message callback\eventbus with ability to hook and alter any code related messages, this will allow to "translate" any code based output with string analization.

    Also API shoud require to assign unique ID (string type) for each message (on compilation stage), in this case anyone who want his mod to be localized properly will have chance to set this ID to "MODNAME_STRINGNAME" and post table somewhere (proper way to move all strings into external file but looks like eventbus will work better)

    In code it shoud looks like:
    Code
    engine.ui.postmessage("MODNAME INITIALIZED!","MODNAME_INITIALIZED");

    Any plugin attached to eventbus will have ability to alter message by its ID or string analization, replace it or cancel completely.

    In case of messages with variable data - array input method is required that also include format string it shoud looks like:
    Code
    engine.ui.postmessageex(String[] args,String ID,String Format);

    Similar eventbus required for other types of messages and possibly ability to redirect fileIO to translate stuff like codex entries.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 07, 2013, 08:05:04 AM
    Is that two flight deck carrier gonna make it into the patch? If so, perhaps we could get a preview/spoiler? :D

    Doesn't look like it.

    Just checked entire API "source" and noticed zero options for game localization, large amount of strings emdedded into code and there is no option to hook it.

    I think you might have missed Global.getSettings().getString(), which grabs strings by id from strings.json, and is used in pretty much all of the dialog plugins.

    However, that's only one side of it. The other part is being able to display the text and adjust the UI to make stuff look ok, or at least fit. Also, I'm not entirely sure what good it does to allow modded content to be localized while core stuff - like tooltips, buttons, etc - can't be.

    Anyway, the bottom line is that making the game localizeable is an extensive task, and this release isn't making an attempt to tackle it.

    (This really isn't the thread for detailed suggestions, btw. If you'd like to discuss this further, please start a new thread in Suggestions.)


    can rendering state\sprite be altered on stations and planets

    Not at the moment, though changing the station graphic is somewhere on my list. Not sure if I'll get to it by 0.6a.

    ... actually, for planets, a lot of stuff CAN be changed dynamically - anything in PlanetSpecAPI can be changed on the fly in the campaign, for each individual planet.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on September 07, 2013, 08:12:21 AM
    So, like, we could do planets that "evolve" as they're colonized?

    COOL. 

    Wish we could swap out Station graphics, but heck, this sorely tempts me to get rid of Stations entirely, if we can access the buy / sell interface via Dialogs and stock them with items / ships.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 07, 2013, 08:55:35 AM
    Wish we could swap out Station graphics, but heck, this sorely tempts me to get rid of Stations entirely, if we can access the buy / sell interface via Dialogs and stock them with items / ships.

    I'd expect this is how the game is ultimately going to work, anyway. Not that stations would necessarily go away, but I don't see them as the primary "planet interaction" hub.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: silentstormpt on September 07, 2013, 09:35:50 AM
    As ship sellers, mostly and maybe planet defense, those 2 can be easily explain why station needed.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Voyager I on September 07, 2013, 02:15:14 PM
    Having a market hub that doesn't involve climbing out of a gravity well would certainly make sense from a perspective of space-economics, especially since most of our ships probably handle atmospheric flight about as well as the average brick.


    They probably wouldn't be useful as a planetary defense platform themselves, since a planet in space could be attacked from any direction and they would thus be trivial to bypass, but they would be necessary as a servicing station for defense fleets full of non-atmospheric ships and would probably also serve as something of a fortified harbor against attacks at stellar operations.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Ravendarke on September 07, 2013, 07:26:00 PM
    What about star? Can it be changed in realtime?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 07, 2013, 07:32:58 PM
    What about star? Can it be changed in realtime?

    Yeah. As far as the game is concerned, graphics-wise, a star is just a glowy planet.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Ravendarke on September 07, 2013, 07:49:39 PM
    Muhahhaha.. Muhahahahahahhahahahahahhaa (that was just Devil's laughter if someone would have problem to recognize it).. great news, thx.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Psycho Society on September 07, 2013, 08:02:32 PM
    Big update! 9 months in the oven... Where is my economy??

    Just kidding, Alex. Looking good. I'm sure all the overhauled gameplay mechanics will blow my mind into itty bitty pieces.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on September 07, 2013, 10:45:53 PM
    Quote
    allow modded content to be localized while core stuff - like tooltips, buttons, etc - can't be.

    if all this objects will provide chance to handle text inside, localization will be very easy and will be managable inside current mod system, just download localization mod and it will work.

    also this will allow automatic localization, some libraries allow to translate code onfly without human interaction.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: sherpajack on September 08, 2013, 01:30:46 AM
    Having a market hub that doesn't involve climbing out of a gravity well would certainly make sense from a perspective of space-economics, especially since most of our ships probably handle atmospheric flight about as well as the average brick.


    They probably wouldn't be useful as a planetary defense platform themselves, since a planet in space could be attacked from any direction and they would thus be trivial to bypass, but they would be necessary as a servicing station for defense fleets full of non-atmospheric ships and would probably also serve as something of a fortified harbor against attacks at stellar operations.

    Actually two or three (or better yet, 4+) stations located in geostationary or just stationary orbits relative to one another would be make observation/deployment platforms given their ability to sit outside distortions of the atmosphere and most of the gravity well.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Mattk50 on September 08, 2013, 03:04:22 AM
    The star thing means easy binary and trinary systems as far as i can tell.

    Glorious.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gabriel_Braun on September 09, 2013, 04:09:30 AM
    Come on Alex it's September 9th, where's my birthday present?   ;D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: rex on September 09, 2013, 08:44:31 AM
    Boooo!!!

    The OP tech skills are less OP.

    Thanks Obama.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: silentstormpt on September 09, 2013, 12:49:55 PM
    Muhahhaha.. Muhahahahahahhahahahahahhaa (that was just Devil's laughter if someone would have problem to recognize it).. great news, thx.

    Why do i have the feeling ur going to make a transparent texture with black glow as a star?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Ravendarke on September 09, 2013, 07:44:36 PM
    Something bit different (and I don´t believe black glow will be possible as most likely it will be additive)... but it was about possibility to change stars realtime... Void eating stars, anyone?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Hyph_K31 on September 10, 2013, 02:12:53 AM
    Or perhaps even Pulsars? Unrealistic ones mind, I just want stars that pulse ever so gently.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Madgamer13 on September 10, 2013, 07:31:15 AM
    I want disco ball suns that provide the boogie all night long.  There also needs to be an appropriate soundtrack for such a disco sun.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Tchey on September 10, 2013, 07:59:27 AM
    Hi there, i could not find it, sorry if it's already well known : is there any ETA for 0.6, beside "when it's done" ? Days, weeks, months ?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: sdmike1 on September 10, 2013, 08:01:51 AM
    Hopefully days of weeks but it could be months for all we know :)
    The last patch notes was miscellaneous cleanup items so hopefully soontm ;)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on September 10, 2013, 08:09:19 AM
    possible ETA 16th december :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Psycho Society on September 10, 2013, 10:35:30 AM
    I'm going to say... September 29. Yeah. Anyone for october?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: firstattak1 on September 10, 2013, 01:56:22 PM
    I would say.....soon or when half life 3 comes out. What ever comes first.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 10, 2013, 02:12:28 PM
    It's pretty soon, guys :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: icepick37 on September 10, 2013, 02:42:55 PM
    Don't tease with that unless you mean it, haha. My heart can't take it.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: SainnQ on September 10, 2013, 03:02:32 PM
    It's pretty soon, guys :)

    Hopefully before starbound or star command :/
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Mattk50 on September 10, 2013, 03:22:44 PM
    I want disco ball suns that provide the boogie all night long.  There also needs to be an appropriate soundtrack for such a disco sun.

    A real pulsar flashes far more than your average disco ball. it would be perfect.
    It's pretty soon, guys :)

    Hopefully before starbound or star command :/
    or stardrive, or starmade, or star citizen, or starprostatexam
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Uomoz on September 10, 2013, 03:38:09 PM
    starsoon™
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Lancefighter on September 10, 2013, 04:49:20 PM
    Is pretty soon before or after X-Rebirth or Starpoint Gemini 2 steals all of my attention?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: SainnQ on September 10, 2013, 06:38:16 PM
    I want disco ball suns that provide the boogie all night long.  There also needs to be an appropriate soundtrack for such a disco sun.

    A real pulsar flashes far more than your average disco ball. it would be perfect.
    It's pretty soon, guys :)

    Hopefully before starbound or star command :/
    or stardrive, or starmade, or star citizen, or starprostatexam

    I'm too poor for Star Citizen. I'd love a frigin HOTAS & Oculus Rift setup to play that game with.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thaago on September 10, 2013, 07:22:49 PM
    starsoon™

    I laughed so hard when I saw this. :D

    It's pretty soon, guys :)

    Oh man, I just got back into a groove with work too... you're totally going to sabotage me, aren't you?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 10, 2013, 07:32:14 PM
    It's pretty soon, guys :)

    Oh man, I just got back into a groove with work too... you're totally going to sabotage me, aren't you?

    Hopefully!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Foxer360 on September 10, 2013, 07:35:05 PM
    I want it...
    Spoiler
    (https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6009422336/h0F47F7D9/)
    [close]

    Oh by the way, will ship systems have an impact on retreating autoresolve? For example; Cycerin's Desinova, the Enforcer and my Comet class have special systems for bursts of speed. They allow them to become hunter/killers for enemy ships on the run, right?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on September 10, 2013, 10:59:35 PM
    It's pretty soon, guys :)
    Ahhh!

    Well, I guess I need to push my last mod build before 0.6 and the Great Refactoring out right now then, so that everybody gets to try it before Soon™ happens.

    <scurries off to prepare release>
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on September 11, 2013, 12:53:43 AM
    soon...

    i will leave it here
    https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: ArkAngel on September 11, 2013, 05:05:52 AM
    It's pretty soon, guys :)
    'Gasp!'  :o I just realise his soon doesn't have a tm. This has to mean its the soon as is its close kind of soon instead of the indefinite kind of soon!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BHunterSEAL on September 11, 2013, 07:15:29 AM
    soon...

    i will leave it here
    https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time

    I guess I just don't understand why this sort of *** is acceptable in the games industry. In my line of work, if a client is expecting something, we will put in 90, 100, 110 hours a week to make it happen. More if necessary and for months on end if need be. We are expected to give clear and realistic milestones for deliverables and move mountains to meet them. Internally, mistakes, delays and poor communication are punished harshly: you will get chewed-out on by your team and your performance comp will suffer. Excuses are not tolerated. Delays in getting production data from the engineering team? Deal with it. Client sends you their financials as outputs crookedly-scanned on a 1982 Xerox machine? Deal with it. There's a bug in your model and 20 pages in the presentation need to be redone? Hope you've stocked up on Red Bull because the meeting is still tomorrow at 9:00 AM.

    I'm not saying this is ideal, or that it's resulted in a particularly happy or healthy lifestyle for anyone I know, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around how the complete opposite is the norm in the software industry. Valve isn't the only offender, it's sadly par for the course at this point. Even when games do get finished, there are a lot of mainstream releases nowadays that are so buggy that if we put out something comparably shoddy, the entire team would be summarily fired.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Foxer360 on September 11, 2013, 07:21:30 AM
    You should consider looking for employment somewhere else, it's not right to be held responsible for other peoples mistakes. That's not workplace responsibility! In anycase, Alex is making sure the final product is polished enough so people can thoroughly enjoy it as he slaves away on the next version.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on September 11, 2013, 07:26:02 AM
    That, and game-dev <> commercial engineering dev.  Well, other than the death-marches and unrealistic expectations.

    In all seriousness, I'd rather imagine Alex as getting enough sleep and having a reasonable work/life balance rather than imagine him tied to the tyranny of listening to people whine about when Soon is. 

    We want a fun game here, and we aren't going to get it if the developer's burnt out; it's not like we (the people providing the VC) can just promote somebody willing to live on nicotine and stale donuts who is desperate for a 3% raise this year :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BHunterSEAL on September 11, 2013, 08:00:38 AM
    I certainly applaud Alex for what we call "managing expectations"--it's great that he hasn't blown deadlines or been silent in between updates. And his releases have been stable, relatively polished, and largely bug-free (certainly no truly game-breaking busts, here's lookin' at you Total War series).

    But I do disagree with the decision to combine so many major revisions into one patch. Understanding that some changes are interrelated, going through the dev notes it appears there was enough clearly delineated content to release in several incremental updates. And, given the business model in use here, Alex would likely have profited from doing so: it's not just these forums that have gone a bit quiet, it's the half-dozen other places on the Internet where this game is discussed (how I and likely many others found this great game). The modding community would also have benefitted, but we should applaud Alex for releasing the new API early.

    And yes, it's frustrating, I know. All the time, I come up with great (and some not-so-great) ideas that we simply don't have time to implement for the next meeting or deliverable. It pisses me off to no end, being at a client's offices and looking at a page and thinking to myself, "this analysis would have been so much better if we had just..." But at the end of the day, I'm glad I have people driving the process on my end that don't allow for our version of "feature creep"--otherwise, I don't think I'd ever finish a project!



    *BTW, the intensity I described previously isn't unique to my firm but more of an industry-wide work culture. There are a lot of other great reasons why I absolutely love my job :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 11, 2013, 10:29:47 AM
    But I do disagree with the decision to combine so many major revisions into one patch. Understanding that some changes are interrelated, going through the dev notes it appears there was enough clearly delineated content to release in several incremental updates. And, given the business model in use here, Alex would likely have profited from doing so: it's not just these forums that have gone a bit quiet, it's the half-dozen other places on the Internet where this game is discussed (how I and likely many others found this great game). The modding community would also have benefitted, but we should applaud Alex for releasing the new API early.

    I definitely agree that the current update cycle took too long. (And I suppose it's still "taking", not "took" - for now!) But thinking back on it, I  don't see any way to have reasonably made a release along the way. The only separate chunk is hyperspace, and that was only implemented a little while ago. Everything else - CR, logistics, campaign battle mechanics, new fighter mechanics, UI revamp - are all tied together. Maybe one or two of them could be released separately, but the amount of extra work to stub out the things they tie into would take too much time to make it an attractive option. One way to look at it is you could have all these features in smaller chunks along the way, but it'd literally take half again as long to get all of them.

    To your larger point, I don't think this is actually an industry-wide attitude in game development. Many AAA companies are known for being in a state of constant crunch, with 80+ hour weeks and all that comes with it. I think where game development differs from other software development (or making a physical object, I suppose) is that you don't know exactly what you're making until you finally get there, unless what you're making is incredibly formulaic and by the numbers. Otherwise, a lot of the time is spent nailing down nebulous things like "is this fun", "could this be more fun", and "does this fit in with the overall vision", and it's simply impossible to predict how long that's going to take.

    I think Valve is one of the few big companies to recognize this - or to at least act on it - and "Valve Time" is a direct result of that. They're not saying "we can't be bothered to make an estimate", they're saying "we can't make an estimate, and if we had to and were held to it, the end product would suffer".

    Another point is that in software dev (and I imagine elsewhere, too, though I can't speak to that from experience), working extreme hours doesn't mean higher productivity. From personal experience, there's certainly a point where more hours is a net negative in terms of productivity, though you can manage that to a point by saving "dumb" stuff for when you're not feeling too sharp. I also recall reading about a large game dev company that made everyone go home at 4pm - and had an increase in productivity as a result. I can't remember what company that was - Relic, I think? Could be wrong, not finding that article in google; it was about two years back.

    Anyway, that's certainly not conclusive, and is an aside anyway, because the I think the hours worked are secondary to being unable to make accurate estimates. Rather, consistently extreme hours are a reaction to making incorrect estimates and then trying to meet them - a reaction that's counter-productive in the long run.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Nick XR on September 11, 2013, 10:52:07 AM
    soon...

    i will leave it here
    https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time

    I guess I just don't understand why this sort of *** is acceptable in the games industry. In my line of work, if a client is expecting something, we will put in 90, 100, 110 hours a week to make it happen. More if necessary and for months on end if need be. We are expected to give clear and realistic milestones for deliverables and move mountains to meet them. Internally, mistakes, delays and poor communication are punished harshly: you will get chewed-out on by your team and your performance comp will suffer. Excuses are not tolerated. Delays in getting production data from the engineering team? Deal with it. Client sends you their financials as outputs crookedly-scanned on a 1982 Xerox machine? Deal with it. There's a bug in your model and 20 pages in the presentation need to be redone? Hope you've stocked up on Red Bull because the meeting is still tomorrow at 9:00 AM.

    I'm not saying this is ideal, or that it's resulted in a particularly happy or healthy lifestyle for anyone I know, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around how the complete opposite is the norm in the software industry. Valve isn't the only offender, it's sadly par for the course at this point. Even when games do get finished, there are a lot of mainstream releases nowadays that are so buggy that if we put out something comparably shoddy, the entire team would be summarily fired.

    Creative development is pretty different from developing a shopping cart, or billing system, or the typical boring programming plumbing (integrate these two unstable systems into one stable system).  People have an idea what they want when they say "I want an inventory management system", but when they say "I want a space game" the solution space is a lot larger.  I'm guessing Alex could rewrite everything in a fraction of the time he's spent actually creating it.  The delta between the two is the cost of the creative process and that's the difference between apples and oranges.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: noego on September 11, 2013, 10:59:10 AM
    I definitely agree that the current update cycle took too long.

    It's been a long wait, for sure, but (since Valve has been mentioned) then I've been waiting for Half Life 2 Episode 3 for years and I'm not complaining. If the update is good (and so far I don't see signs that it won't be), the wait will be worth it.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on September 11, 2013, 11:02:27 AM
    I definitely agree that the current update cycle took too long.

    I did not want to ask this just yet, but since we are on the topic: Do you suppose that the next update after 0.61b will hit release faster than 0.61a? Or should we prepare for a decelerated release cycle for, well, the rest of the development? I would imagine that the issue of this patch, heavily interconnected mechanics, only gets more pronounced as the game progresses towards completion.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gotcha! on September 11, 2013, 11:04:57 AM
    I completely agree with Alex here.

    Working overtime definitely hurts the end product in the long run, as one person can only do so much on one day before losing focus and starts making errors.
    Not to mention the burned out workers who get to sit home with a massive depression, which will then contribute a full 0% of work time for as long as they see a psychologist.

    If I had a company I'd ban overwork time altogether. If some job can't be done without overwork then employers need to hire more people or take a good look at how they handle things.

    And promises should only be made if they can be kept. It's good that Alex is not giving any dates. I'd rather be kept in the dark than be disappointed over and over again because deadlines can't be reached.
    /sorryifeltlikerantingbecauseimanagedtoburnouttwiceinmylifetimealreadyduetoevilemployers
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 11, 2013, 11:52:04 AM
    I'm guessing Alex could rewrite everything in a fraction of the time he's spent actually creating it.  The delta between the two is the cost of the creative process and that's the difference between apples and oranges.

    You know, I almost said that exact thing. There's so much iteration, and taking that out of the process would be huge. Too bad you can't just get everything right on the first try, eh? :)


    I did not want to ask this just yet, but since we are on the topic: Do you suppose that the next update after 0.61b will hit release faster than 0.61a? Or should we prepare for a decelerated release cycle for, well, the rest of the development? I would imagine that the issue of this patch, heavily interconnected mechanics, only gets more pronounced as the game progresses towards completion.

    (Minor matter of nomenclature: the "a" stands for alpha, so the next mini-release be 0.6.1a. "b" would be beta.)

    It's a tough question to answer. I definitely *want* to have a shorter release cycle, and will do my best to make that happen. Hopefully it'll be possible to add one or two pieces at a time; I'll have a better idea after 0.6a is out and I have some time to plan. I have been thinking ahead a bit, of course, but haven't nailed down just what the next release will contain. There's definitely the issue of features being interrelated. Just as an example: proper factions and proper dialog options go hand in hand, and once you get into, say, the proper planet interaction UI, it's tempting to get in more of the features that go there rather than iterate that UI a few extra times.

    Tempting, but not unavoidable. I think it'll be less of a problem than for 0.6a, where the interaction between the combat and campaign layers being reworked pretty much completely was what made it so much of an all-or-nothing deal.

    So, I guess we'll see. I can't make any promises, but it's definitely something that's on my mind.

    Working overtime definitely hurts the end product in the long run, as one person can only do so much on one day before losing focus and starts making errors.

    Honestly, I think some overtime is fine. Things come up, emergencies happen, and sometimes you just need that extra bit of effort to get over the hump. It's when overtime is the rule rather than the exception that you have a real problem.

    /sorryifeltlikerantingbecauseimanagedtoburnouttwiceinmylifetimealreadyduetoevilemployers

    Ugh, sorry to heat that! Getting burned out if pretty horrible - if you haven't experienced it yourself, it's tough to imagine just how bad it is.

    It's been a long wait, for sure, but (since Valve has been mentioned) then I've been waiting for Half Life 2 Episode 3 for years and I'm not complaining. If the update is good (and so far I don't see signs that it won't be), the wait will be worth it.

    :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Uomoz on September 11, 2013, 11:54:59 AM
    Being a huge valve fanboi I can only say this: valve time, best time. StarSoon FTW.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gabriel_Braun on September 11, 2013, 12:19:46 PM
    I believe you mean THQ?  We HAD to be out of studio by 4pm.  I always thought it was due to security with the current build data but now you mention it, we did have a lot more social time :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on September 11, 2013, 12:37:58 PM
    Someone from THQ?

    Nonetheless, I digress.  The changelog is certainly admirable, but it will come sooner or later.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thaago on September 11, 2013, 12:40:19 PM
    Since we seem to be on the topic of the game development process: Alex, how do you feel about small projects like your own hiring more people as they become more successful? That is, people who would be up to their arms in coding and testing and coming up/implementing with new features rather than doing more independent work on commission. (I'm not saying you need to hire someone btw, just wondering :P) If I was running one it would be exciting to have faster completion and brainstorming, but I'd be worried about more and more time going into management and about losing creative control.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on September 11, 2013, 12:59:11 PM
    I definitely *want* to have a shorter release cycle, and will do my best to make that happen.

    What is your opinion on dividing releases into stable and unstable builds? Unstable builds could be released only in the forum whenever a new feature is implemented, accepting all the untied ends and, well, instability.  

    They could help to counter some issues a long release cycle has. I'm not talking about simple impatience or fading interest here. I think many of us feel increasingly disconnected (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5813.msg106662#msg106662) with the current state of the next release, which means it gets harder and harder to understand and appreciate the new features you introduce in blogposts and patchnotes. That in turn means that it gets harder to utter constructive criticism, make suggestions or plan mods.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 11, 2013, 02:45:51 PM
    I believe you mean THQ?  We HAD to be out of studio by 4pm.  I always thought it was due to security with the current build data but now you mention it, we did have a lot more social time :)

    Yeah, I think that was it. Still can't find the article! Also, can't help but think that's not such a good example anymore, what with THQ going bankrupt and all.

    Since we seem to be on the topic of the game development process: Alex, how do you feel about small projects like your own hiring more people as they become more successful? That is, people who would be up to their arms in coding and testing and coming up/implementing with new features rather than doing more independent work on commission. (I'm not saying you need to hire someone btw, just wondering :P) If I was running one it would be exciting to have faster completion and brainstorming, but I'd be worried about more and more time going into management and about losing creative control.

    It's a complicated question. First of all, hiring a full-time programmer is really expensive; a project would have to be considerably more, ah, successful than Starsector currently is to do that. You could possibly come to some kind of percentage arrangement, but that seems difficult to get right, unless the people know each other well and start out as partners. What's fair? How do you ensure that the person then pulls their weight?

    Spending more time managing is a concern, of course. As far as ceding creative control, I think you have to be willing to do that if you're going to work with other people, regardless of whether they're a programmer/artist/sound designer. But really, that's not so much "ceding creative control" as it is letting people make awesome stuff they're good at making without getting in the way too much :)


    I definitely *want* to have a shorter release cycle, and will do my best to make that happen.

    What is your opinion on dividing releases into stable and unstable builds? Unstable builds could be released only in the forum whenever a new feature is implemented, accepting all the untied ends and, well, instability.  

    They could help to counter some issues a long release cycle has. I'm not talking about simple impatience or fading interest here. I think many of us feel increasingly disconnected (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5813.msg106662#msg106662) with the current state of the next release, which means it gets harder and harder to understand and appreciate the new features you introduce in blogposts and patchnotes. That in turn means that it gets harder to utter constructive criticism, make suggestions or plan mods.

    Yeah, I definitely caught that comment from mendonca and it makes sense. There are lots of potential issues with releasing unstable builds, though. First of all, 0.6a hasn't been in a releasable state - even as an "unstable build" - until very recently, just because some critical UI elements weren't in place. The other issue is that feedback on a build like that wouldn't be very useful, whether its bug reports (for things I already know are broken) or suggestions (for things that are incomplete and thus shouldn't be judged on their current merits).

    Also, a lot of the time I'll be working on one feature while waiting on some assets/internal feedback for another, and when things are interleaved like that, it makes for pretty efficient progress but, unfortunately, less clear "this is releasable" points. So what happens is before a release there's a period where I've stopped adding features, and switch to playtesting while waiting on some assets (which, incidentally, is the phase 0.6a is in now.) For unstable builds, the time currently spent playtesting would basically be wasted. Unless you create a code branch, but that's a considerable pain to deal with, and, again, takes more time.

    But really, for me it comes down to what I'm comfortable releasing. I'd hate for something totally busted to end up in the hands of someone doing a preview, for example, and screenshots of things tend to find their way around. That said, I really don't want the next release to take as long as 0.6a did!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on September 11, 2013, 03:25:15 PM
    Thanks for the answers and explanations. As long as we keep progressing steadily towards the space game of my dreams, I don't care so much at which rate :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: rada660 on September 11, 2013, 07:51:49 PM
    It been since march I'm waiting for this version to come out... Why does alex doesn't just release the thing at every new update? :(
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BillyRueben on September 11, 2013, 07:55:00 PM
    It been since march I'm waiting for this version to come out... Why does alex doesn't just release the thing at every new update? :(

    I'm going to direct your attention to the three paragraphs he just wrote on the subject two posts ago.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on September 11, 2013, 09:17:45 PM
    @Alex:

    I hear you on all that.  I've always tried to adhere to Release Early, Release Often philosophies, even where I wasn't absolutely sure about QA, (and yes, that's bit me on the butt more than once, but a patch a few hours after a report, and I've found most people are pretty forgiving), but for things like this, where the kneebone's connected to the thighbone and so forth and so on, there isn't much you can do, other than say, "hey, I'm in the middle of all this, there is a plan and it's getting done".  

    It's never felt (from here) that you've had too much trouble with Kitchen Sink issues, which are typically where things crash and burn.  I really think this was the big hump, but you've kept it manageable.  It's never wise to bite something you can't even see the end of, you end up like that girl in the Shel Silverstein poem who ate the whale ;)

    Unless I don't understand the mechanical changes under the hood, it should be possible to keep the release cycle shorter after this; I think you may underestimate just how many issues were made much more manageable by building dialog / UI-kit stuff, and I am glad you took up that model, it's a hugely powerful tool for fleshing things out.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BHunterSEAL on September 11, 2013, 10:29:34 PM
    After reading Alex's posts, it's pretty clear that a lot of thought has gone into the release strategy. I'm also getting increasingly hopeful due to the uses of past-tense...


     
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on September 11, 2013, 11:44:18 PM
    Couldn't you have done that much homework before posting a rant?  ;)

    Anyhow, welcome to the Forums.  We're usually nice :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on September 12, 2013, 03:21:07 AM
    just call game "half-sector 3" and all complains about "long cycle" will gone.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Okim on September 12, 2013, 03:22:21 AM
    That sounds a bit... rude :)

    But i see the point.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on September 12, 2013, 06:16:32 AM
    i have intopic questions:

    what JVM will be included with 060?
    can i change JVM for my own without violating EULA?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gabriel_Braun on September 12, 2013, 08:34:27 AM
    @The_Soldier:

    Yeah, going back a while to after EA in Surrey but those were the days :)

    @Alex:

    Am I reading it correctly that there TWO systems in the .6 candidate?  I ask this in wondering if there's a technical issue to adding more systems and their interacting traffic or if you have only added one other system as POC?  Is it feasible that Lazy Wizard's (Correct me if I'm wrong!) procedural generation code can generate on runtime a unique sector?    Oh gods I hope so! :D

    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 12, 2013, 08:47:56 AM
    @Alex:

    I hear you on all that.  I've always tried to adhere to Release Early, Release Often philosophies, even where I wasn't absolutely sure about QA, (and yes, that's bit me on the butt more than once, but a patch a few hours after a report, and I've found most people are pretty forgiving), but for things like this, where the kneebone's connected to the thighbone and so forth and so on, there isn't much you can do, other than say, "hey, I'm in the middle of all this, there is a plan and it's getting done".  

    It's never felt (from here) that you've had too much trouble with Kitchen Sink issues, which are typically where things crash and burn.  I really think this was the big hump, but you've kept it manageable.  It's never wise to bite something you can't even see the end of, you end up like that girl in the Shel Silverstein poem who ate the whale ;)

    Unless I don't understand the mechanical changes under the hood, it should be possible to keep the release cycle shorter after this; I think you may underestimate just how many issues were made much more manageable by building dialog / UI-kit stuff, and I am glad you took up that model, it's a hugely powerful tool for fleshing things out.

    Thanks for the understanding/vote of confidence :)

    Yeah, I'm hoping it'll go more smoothly as well - as you point out, one of the main reasons for the dialog model is, in fact, to make it easier to add features by settling on a common interface paradigm. (Did I really just use that word? Sigh.)


    After reading Alex's posts, it's pretty clear that a lot of thought has gone into the release strategy. I'm also getting increasingly hopeful due to the uses of past-tense...
    Couldn't you have done that much homework before posting a rant?  ;)

    Anyhow, welcome to the Forums.  We're usually nice :)

    *cough*I think he meant the posts in this thread.*cough*


    Am I reading it correctly that there TWO systems in the .6 candidate?  I ask this in wondering if there's a technical issue to adding more systems and their interacting traffic or if you have only added one other system as POC?  Is it feasible that Lazy Wizard's (Correct me if I'm wrong!) procedural generation code can generate on runtime a unique sector?    Oh gods I hope so! :D

    It's definitely possible to add more systems. You might run into issues with the savegame file size w/o turning on save compression, though. The reason there aren't more in 0.6a is there's not really that much to do with them as a player (yet!), so...

    what JVM will be included with 060?
    can i change JVM for my own without violating EULA?

    Still 6, though I'd like to upgrade to 7 soon, as well as bundle 7 with the mac release. (From what I hear, 7 is something like 10% faster, though I'll believe that when I see it.)

    Yes, you can absolutely use whatever JVM you like.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: silentstormpt on September 12, 2013, 10:12:20 AM

    Am I reading it correctly that there TWO systems in the .6 candidate?  I ask this in wondering if there's a technical issue to adding more systems and their interacting traffic or if you have only added one other system as POC?  Is it feasible that Lazy Wizard's (Correct me if I'm wrong!) procedural generation code can generate on runtime a unique sector?    Oh gods I hope so! :D

    It's definitely possible to add more systems. You might run into issues with the savegame file size w/o turning on save compression, though. The reason there aren't more in 0.6a is there's not really that much to do with them as a player (yet!), so...


    Thats why ive been working on a framework to add dynamic starsystems + mining + faction diplomacy + custom cargo types and possibly a economy based on demand and supply,

    But its still a huge work in progress
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on September 12, 2013, 10:17:50 AM
    You're only allowed one "paradigm" per year, Alex, and next time it needs to be something like, "I ported this to all the major consoles on my lunch break."  ;D

    <disappears back to World of Crunch>
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BrickedKeyboard on September 12, 2013, 01:00:57 PM
    Alex, that sounds like about a month of work remaining.  Care to give at least a vague idea of how much time it has taken in the past to accomplish the amount of work you have left?  As in "greater than a week, greater than 2 weeks, greater than a month.."

    That way I won't bother to refresh the page every day or get my hopes up if the patch release is not imminent.

    Man, and I thought I was being pessimistic with my "greater than a month" post.

    This delay is starting to be seriously irritating.  I've been checking this site out for months now, hoping for an update.  If, last November, you had posted "working on next update, won't be around til next September", I wouldn't have spent all this time refreshing the site.

    Being slow to update isn't nearly as bad as it being hugely uncertain when you will get to play the game you've been reading about for months.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on September 12, 2013, 01:06:48 PM
    Then you'd better find something to do. :P This is just an indie game with something like 5 people working on it.  I'm modeling for a variety of CoH mods to keep me busy, and there's also school for me eating up a good seven hours.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: icepick37 on September 12, 2013, 01:17:30 PM
    When you can predict the future, maybe then it'll be okay to ask people to do so. Creative work is an inherently unknowable thing. You don't know how long it takes to make a widget until you sit down and do it.

    That said, the long wait IS painful, haha. And Alex does try to keep it shorter than this usually.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Kothar on September 12, 2013, 03:01:05 PM
    Man, and I thought I was being pessimistic with my "greater than a month" post.

    This delay is starting to be seriously irritating.  I've been checking this site out for months now, hoping for an update.  If, last November, you had posted "working on next update, won't be around til next September", I wouldn't have spent all this time refreshing the site.

    Being slow to update isn't nearly as bad as it being hugely uncertain when you will get to play the game you've been reading about for months.

    You could just sign up for the mailing list, which only sends out emails when new versions are released...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: MShadowy on September 12, 2013, 03:32:29 PM
    Man, and I thought I was being pessimistic with my "greater than a month" post.

    This delay is starting to be seriously irritating.  I've been checking this site out for months now, hoping for an update.  If, last November, you had posted "working on next update, won't be around til next September", I wouldn't have spent all this time refreshing the site.

    Being slow to update isn't nearly as bad as it being hugely uncertain when you will get to play the game you've been reading about for months.

    Well, considering what Alex said here (particularly the bolded bit):

    Also, a lot of the time I'll be working on one feature while waiting on some assets/internal feedback for another, and when things are interleaved like that, it makes for pretty efficient progress but, unfortunately, less clear "this is releasable" points. So what happens is before a release there's a period where I've stopped adding features, and switch to playtesting while waiting on some assets (which, incidentally, is the phase 0.6a is in now.) For unstable builds, the time currently spent playtesting would basically be wasted. Unless you create a code branch, but that's a considerable pain to deal with, and, again, takes more time.

    Indicates that you likely are being a bit pessimistic.  From the sounds of things the code is essentially done and at this point the game is waiting on some assets, which, by my guess, are probably graphical UI elements -- buttons, dialogue boxes and the like.  There is also a possibility, given the number of sounds needing to be replaced by Stark, that some of the assets could be sounds or music that are not yet in the final state.  However, if I am not very much mistaken, by my read 0.6 is likely very close to release.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: hairrorist on September 12, 2013, 07:28:29 PM
    "By my read..."
    I don't think you really read it or understand development if you did.

    He says they're doing some play testing while waiting for assets before work can resume.  That doesn't mean that anything is complete.

    Even if it did mean what it doesn't mean, feature complete is FAR from release complete.  We have a good long wait to go if Alex keeps doing things right.  I hope he does, and I don't think there's any indication that he's going to veer toward sloppy.  I do worry that alpha access was granted far too early, and that giving these alpha builds the kind of spit shine that allows this kind of extremely early and frequent release structure may be bogging the process down.  In fact, I really don't see how it couldn't have a huge impact on development time especially for a one man studio.  I'm also concerned that the community might burn out before the game is even released!  I mean, it's looking like probably another 8 months to a year for the full design scope discussed--at least.

    I don't mind the wait because I avoid doing much more than tinkering about with new releases.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: hairrorist on September 12, 2013, 07:29:46 PM
    I do also think that one blog update a month is not too much to ask, especially since most of us have already handed over money. 
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: icepick37 on September 12, 2013, 07:54:10 PM
    Even if there's nothing to post on? (genuinely curious)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 12, 2013, 08:17:47 PM
    I don't know, MShadowy's interpretation sounds pretty reasonable to me :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: MShadowy on September 12, 2013, 08:28:55 PM
    "By my read..."
    I don't think you really read it or understand development if you did.

    He says they're doing some play testing while waiting for assets before work can resume.  That doesn't mean that anything is complete.

    Even if it did mean what it doesn't mean, feature complete is FAR from release complete.  We have a good long wait to go if Alex keeps doing things right.  I hope he does, and I don't think there's any indication that he's going to veer toward sloppy.  I do worry that alpha access was granted far too early, and that giving these alpha builds the kind of spit shine that allows this kind of extremely early and frequent release structure may be bogging the process down.  In fact, I really don't see how it couldn't have a huge impact on development time especially for a one man studio.  I'm also concerned that the community might burn out before the game is even released!  I mean, it's looking like probably another 8 months to a year for the full design scope discussed--at least.

    I don't mind the wait because I avoid doing much more than tinkering about with new releases.

    Gee, thanks for being an insulting ass while you're at it.  I especially like the way you belittled my reading comprehension.

    In any case I went over his message again, just to see if I had made some error in my assessment.  Now, to be fair, there are limits to my knowledge and this shapes the conclusions I can make, and more importantly the inferences I'm likely to draw, but my assessment has not changed.  If Alex's word choice was quite deliberate, and given the content of the past few pages there is no reason to believe otherwise, then at the very least 0.6 is feature complete.  Hell, how else are we supposed to interpret this?  

    "So what happens is before a release there's a period where I've stopped adding features, and switch to playtesting while waiting on some assets (which, incidentally, is the phase 0.6a is in now.)" (Emphasis Mine)

    This sentence is explicitly descriptive of Starsectors current state.  0.6 IS Ceti Alpha Fi-- uh... feature complete.  Yeah, that's what I meant.  Moreover, this is not the only indication of this in that post.

    Consider for a moment how he put it in the prior paragraph: "First of all, 0.6a hasn't been in a releasable state - even as an "unstable build" - until very recently, just because some critical UI elements weren't in place."  Now obviously this is indicating that things aren't stable yet, however it is a very odd way of putting it if, as you assert, these features are not sufficient for a release candidate.  There are certainly other wordings he could have used to indicate the completion of a critical element of the code base, but which would not raise hopes unduly, if it were not.  And yet... well, that's what he typed.  It is also quite consistent with his prior messages for the several pages, best summed up by this one liner:

    It's pretty soon, guys :)

    Seriously, he's been bombarding us with messages that the release is near -- probably not in a few days, but probably less than a month -- I'm not sure why you feel the need to be derogatory.

    And Alex beat me to the punch, ehehehe.

    Guess that means Ah Ween.

    E:  Alright, maybe I should have held back on the wall o' text.  But frankly, after typing out a defense of my reasoning, at length, it kinda felt like waste not to post it.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: hairrorist on September 12, 2013, 09:21:25 PM
    I don't know, MShadowy's interpretation sounds pretty reasonable to me :)

    Hurrah!

    And Shadow, sorry if I came off badly.  I should have rephrased that first sentence as it tinged the whole note a bit acidic.  My bad.  I just get frustrated with folks building up unverified or speculative schedules and then getting bitter when those imaginary schedules are delayed.  It tends to happen for pay-to-alpha and this one feels like its going to be in the oven for a lot longer than most in the pay-to-alpha model, that is, unless Alex insists on his selfish demands for an extravagant lifestyle including both food and sleep.  These developers, they really have no shame.

    I never meant to say that it -wasn't- releasing soon, I said that the statement made doesn't make a clear case for any interpretation and that feature complete and release ready are not one and the same.  It's not uncommon for products to spend longer between feature complete and release ready than from an idea into a feature complete prototype. :)

    Regardless its good to hear that its coming soon!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: MShadowy on September 12, 2013, 09:29:53 PM
    It's alright, I realized I was coming off a bit hyperbolic as well, hence the Khan bit.

    And I had to concede that feature complete not equaling release ready, and if nothing else part of me suspected that the issue may have emerged because I never said what I thought soon was, hence the qualifier.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: BHunterSEAL on September 12, 2013, 11:18:09 PM
    Can't we all just get along? Maybe this should get locked before we tear each other apart in an anticipatory frenzy for 0.6a...

    Couldn't you have done that much homework before posting a rant?  ;)

    Anyhow, welcome to the Forums.  We're usually nice :)

    Appreciate the welcome but I've actually been around six months longer than you have ;) I keep up with the boards here but haven't felt I've had anything particularly meaningful to contribute.

    And yes, was referring to Alex's clarifications in this thread. I hadn't realized that much of the incremental content was so interrelated. But I do stand by my point that more frequent releases will drive broader awareness and consequently sales... It occurred to me that, with the expanded campaign and modability, this release has the potential to kick off the game's commercial viability. Lots of opportunity for exposure to a wider audience than ever before, so I can completely understand desire to get as much in and polished as possible. This is about the time in the dev cycle when Mount & Blade blew up. 
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gabriel_Braun on September 12, 2013, 11:42:00 PM
    Quiet it down fellas or that padlock will come back!  :)

    @Alex:

    That's good to know for now, thanks :D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Madgamer13 on September 13, 2013, 06:28:04 AM
    Woe be to us!  We, who are under the thumb of anticipation, lament under it's exotic grasp!  We be to woe, for we are impatient and whiny, we are like children, for we are to starsector for what starsector is to a pacifier!

    Woe be to us! Woooooee!

    *flails arms around in disproportionate panic*
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Cycerin on September 13, 2013, 07:02:57 AM
    This means that we should really be whipping David and Stian. Hmmmm... *thoughtfully eyes discarded belt*
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
    Post by: Erick Doe on September 13, 2013, 07:04:33 AM
    I for one welcome our padlock bearing overlords (cough-moderators-cough).
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 01:27:17 PM
    And it's out!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: ValkyriaL on September 13, 2013, 01:28:32 PM
    OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! THE WAIT WAS WORTH IT!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Psiyon on September 13, 2013, 01:28:56 PM
    Alex I love you.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: ciago92 on September 13, 2013, 01:29:47 PM
    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand there goes my life for the next week
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: ValkyriaL on September 13, 2013, 01:30:07 PM
    I LOVE YOU TO! ;D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: K-64 on September 13, 2013, 01:32:33 PM
    And here we see the release of a new version is shown to be detrimental to neurological processes of those who follow its progress. The most obvious symptom is the breakdown of grammar and rational speech.

    Spoiler
    :P
    [close]
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Voyager I on September 13, 2013, 01:33:15 PM
    Time to see how long it takes a Tempest to burn out!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: icepick37 on September 13, 2013, 01:34:39 PM
    Bah. I probably can't play until next week. I am SUPPOSED to be studying for the GRE, haha. Maybe I can find a few minutes somewhere, though.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Lictuel on September 13, 2013, 01:37:39 PM
    And there goes my sparetime. Yeah! for the new release.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thule on September 13, 2013, 01:45:16 PM
    Spoiler
    (http://cdn.alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/surprised-omg-l.png)
    [close]
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 01:46:14 PM
    And here we see the release of a new version is shown to be detrimental to neurological processes of those who follow its progress. The most obvious symptom is the breakdown of grammar and rational speech.

    Spoiler
    :P
    [close]

    I blame the video games.

    @Thule: come on man, spoiler that :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gotcha! on September 13, 2013, 01:47:38 PM
    Alex, I'd kiss you, but that'd make you uncomfortable!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Hyph_K31 on September 13, 2013, 01:58:08 PM
    Yes! Playtime!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 01:58:36 PM
    Hot tip: if you only have one ship, do not pick it up while on the fleet screen. It'll CTD. Will be hotfixing this shortly.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Sabaton on September 13, 2013, 02:06:30 PM
     Whoa wait now? Just like that? Wtf? These forums are gonna clog up now.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: FloW on September 13, 2013, 02:11:28 PM
    HOOOOOLD the phone.

    "Hyperspace, a new star system, and a new faction"

    Faction? WHAT? ALEX!!!!
    Now I'll have to get a new fleet up and set out to find them.

    GOGO-Gadgeto-Exploration-Fleet
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: arcibalde on September 13, 2013, 02:11:48 PM
     8)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Trylobot on September 13, 2013, 02:13:48 PM
    woo! release time!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alendor on September 13, 2013, 02:15:45 PM
    i'm running into another CTD seems to be related with being over maximum capacity of crew, and mousing over the crew bar on the bottom left of the screen
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Sabaton on September 13, 2013, 02:17:10 PM
     I hope TB does an alpha strike of this.... it's just...so different now...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gotcha! on September 13, 2013, 02:18:13 PM
    Alendor, can you post it in the bugs section with 0.6a included the title? This way Alex has a nice overview of things. :)
    Bugs can get burried when posted in a thread like this.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 02:18:53 PM
    Alendor, can you post it in the bugs section with 0.6a included the title? This way Alex has a nice overview of things. :)
    Bugs can get burried when posted in a thread like this.
    i'm running into another CTD seems to be related with being over maximum capacity of crew, and mousing over the crew bar on the bottom left of the screen
    Hot tip: if you only have one ship, do not pick it up while on the fleet screen. It'll CTD. Will be hotfixing this shortly.

    These are all related, uploading hotfix now.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on September 13, 2013, 02:19:46 PM
    Spoiler
    (http://cdn.alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/surprised-omg-l.png)
    [close]

    Spoiler
    (http://i.imgur.com/g8eAl.gif)
    [close]


    On a non-image spammy note, wow that 70MB took a while to download for me.
    But now it's time to explore around this new sector, then see what awaits in the mod sections
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: mendonca on September 13, 2013, 02:21:15 PM
    Cool! Bedtime for me though, have fun with the new build guys!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: xenoargh on September 13, 2013, 02:21:29 PM
    WOOHOO, so happy to see this one :)

    Timing's bad.  Debugging all weekend due to fun at work.  Sleep or 0.6a... ah, heck, who needs sleep...
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: FloW on September 13, 2013, 02:22:28 PM
    Those Sindrians. So sneaky, they weren't even announced.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: zakastra on September 13, 2013, 02:31:58 PM
    And it's out!

    I just yelled "WAT!" at my monitor and dropped my coffee.

    :D
    And I was not sad.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: JH1 on September 13, 2013, 02:32:49 PM
    Can't wait to try this (waiting for the hotfix). Been following the forums pretty much daily since the last release. Thanks! :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Erick Doe on September 13, 2013, 02:51:36 PM
    Fantastic!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Eternity57 on September 13, 2013, 02:52:31 PM
    Great News !!!

    Many thanks  ;-)

    By the way, RSS feed do not update with this good news... so I miss 4 hours to play this evening but anyway I use them to play old fashion on v0.54a ;-)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on September 13, 2013, 02:56:26 PM
    And a crash~

    Crashed after fighting a Buffalo in hyperspace, died at the very last moments to it's "f**k it, I'm dying anyway" missile barrage of salamanders. Crashed immediately upon going back to review the battle.


    EDIT:
    Something about "nested lists".
    Spoiler
    Code
    1572484 [Thread-6] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.D  - java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't create nested lists using GLListManager
    java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't create nested lists using GLListManager
    at com.fs.graphics.util.GLListManager.Object.super(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.ui.J.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.impl.O0OO.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.F.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.Z.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.float.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.D.O0oO.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.super.ôØ0000(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.B.øÒÒ000(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.super.super.new(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.combat.D.super(Unknown Source)
    at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$2.run(Unknown Source)
    at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:619)
    [close]
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gotcha! on September 13, 2013, 02:57:17 PM
    Best to post it in the bugs section. But this particular one is already being taken care of.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 03:00:12 PM
    Great News !!!

    Many thanks  ;-)

    By the way, RSS feed do not update with this good news... so I miss 4 hours to play this evening but anyway I use them to play old fashion on v0.54a ;-)

    I'll send a message to the mailing list once the hotfix is up. Didn't want to rush that in case something came up, which it did!

    @Silver Silence: yep, that one has been taken care of.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Chronosfear on September 13, 2013, 03:02:45 PM
    THIS .... Omg .. I can´t believe it´s really happening !!!
    This is soooo suprising soon ... sooooo awesome.

    Thank you all guys ! ( one does not forget the other ones involved here )

    downloading now :)

    greetz
    Chronosfear

    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Sproginator on September 13, 2013, 03:02:55 PM
    And it's out!

    edited for content -Alex
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 03:18:07 PM
    Hotfix is up (fleet screen crash, over-capacity crewbar tooltip crash, other "nested list" crashes). Get it here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2013/09/13/starsector-0-6a-release/).
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Foss456 on September 13, 2013, 03:26:17 PM
    Okay, had to register to write this.

    Thank YOU!

    (There goes the night and propably whole weekend too but. who cares, right?  ;D )
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 03:31:02 PM
    Thank you for taking the time, and welcome to the forum!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: FloW on September 13, 2013, 03:35:06 PM
    I think my post about the new faction was as hidden as the announcement for the faction itself.
    Anything you can say about them?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on September 13, 2013, 03:35:52 PM
    Happy Friday the 13th. ;) Guess this was one bright spot today out of the plethora of other things that attacked me. :P
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 03:38:31 PM
    I think my post about the new faction was as hidden as the announcement for the faction itself.
    Anything you can say about them?

    They're new. And a faction. And are located in the new system. And also, now that I look, are using the same "dialog" text as a Hegemony. You can expect them to get fleshed out a lot at some point, though.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: arwan on September 13, 2013, 03:38:56 PM
    not going to lie.. saw the (Starsector 0.6a is out!) and first thing i said out loud was HOLY S**T. then immediately after that this came to mind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2NEU6Xf7lM

    in short. as you said was a long wait.. well worth the price of admission and would do  it again. Thank You Alex and Co, that are behind the scenes that we don't see as often.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: nonomo4 on September 13, 2013, 03:39:15 PM
    "Looks at announcements": "Mind Blows up"  :D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gotcha! on September 13, 2013, 03:47:29 PM
    I absolutely LOVE the gigantic battle space. I always felt it was too small and crowded.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: ciago92 on September 13, 2013, 03:54:19 PM
    Where do you want feedback on the new stuff? Here or general discussion?
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 03:58:39 PM
    Where do you want feedback on the new stuff? Here or general discussion?

    If it's more involved than a first impression, it probably should go under general. So, I guess it kind of depends - use your judgment :) As long as this thread doesn't start getting bogged down with multiple simultaneous discussions, here is good too.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 04:02:23 PM
    I absolutely LOVE the gigantic battle space. I always felt it was too small and crowded.

    Cool! IIRC a thread talking about how a lot of the time fighting was spent near borders ended up triggering this. What finally made it click was adding travel drive so that reinforcements effectively "start" pretty far from the border and don't have to go through the whole map to get to the enemy.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Thule on September 13, 2013, 04:03:42 PM
    Great new portraits, thank you David. At last more skintones ;) And now pls 100 more ;)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gotcha! on September 13, 2013, 04:04:54 PM
    Very nice, Alex. I also love the planets present in battles. I swear they weren't there before. :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Silver Silence on September 13, 2013, 04:08:02 PM
    Very nice, Alex. I also love the planets present in battles. I swear they weren't there before. :)
    They most certainly weren't. It's nice to fight in orbit of a planet.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 04:09:27 PM
    I also love the planets present in battles. I swear they weren't there before. :)

    Not in the campaign, no. And planets used to be in the foreground, but are now part of the background. They're also bigger if the fight is closer to one :)

    (Protip: you can tell where on the map you are by where the planet is on your screen. It's at the center when you're at the center, near the top when you're at the bottom, etc.)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gotcha! on September 13, 2013, 04:18:51 PM
    I don't fully understand the battle specifics yet.
    I keep attacking a rather large pirate fleet and after destroying his battle ready ships I win the battle.
    He has 4 battle ready Tarsusses left in the statistics screen, but when I harass and attack him, the battle is instantly over and the Tarsusses are still in the statistics screen with their CR seemingly not decreased.

    At that point I can only disengage and flee or try attacking them again, leading to the same result. *scratches head*
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on September 13, 2013, 04:23:40 PM
    As far as I know, Tarsus' are classed as CIVILIAN ships, and thus are instantly retreated (unless given a different command).  I don't think much CR is lost from this, though why they aren't losing CR from going into battle is a bit confusing.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 04:24:43 PM
    Can you post a screenshot? Not quite sure what's going on there.

    Edit: a screenshot of the interaction dialog, that is. You should be getting an option to pursue if the enemy wants to run, and at least some of your ships are fast enough.

    Edit #2: just did a bit of testing to verify that the CR loss and pursuit options work, at least in the cases I was testing, which seem the same as yours.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: ciago92 on September 13, 2013, 04:27:35 PM
    First impressions: love the UI for the most part, love the CR system, supplies are a little pricey, don't like not being able to see your fleet when buying ships and only transferring one ship at a time. can't play with fleet compositions as easily :-\

    Minor notice: when a ship you're pursuing goes through the jump gate you don't lose target or follow them through you start going up and right on the map. maybe I'll take a really efficient ship and just let it follow until I find out what it's targeting lol

    edit: further complaint against the one ship at a time, you can't upgrade your first ship with the money for the difference. ie you can't sell your last ship and you don't have enough money to straight up buy the new ship but you only need 1000 cr or so until you can buy the new ship
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gotcha! on September 13, 2013, 04:34:08 PM
    Sure, here:
    Spoiler
    (http://avatar.home.xs4all.nl/crap/screenshot120.png)
    [close]
    - I move in to engage, I instantly 'win' (because there are no enemy ships in the field)
    - I can then harry the reserves or flee.

    Spoiler
    (http://avatar.home.xs4all.nl/crap/screenshot121.png)
    [close]
    - After I harry the reserves I can either attack or flee.
    - After attacking I instantly 'win' again, no enemies in the field.

    I can only flee out of this battle in order to end it.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 04:34:56 PM
    First impressions: love the UI for the most part, love the CR system, supplies are a little pricey, don't like not being able to see your fleet when buying ships and only transferring one ship at a time. can't play with fleet compositions as easily :-\

    Cool! Re: supplies - that's kind of the point, though I suspect it'll require more balancing down the road. Definitely want them to be a major consideration, though, rather than just something you mindlessly stock up on now and again.

    As far as the fleet screen, I know what you mean. It was just a question of not being able to fit a side-by-side layout, given that the ship views are larger. (For quicker buying/selling, you can hover and press b->space or s->space, btw.)

    Minor notice: when a ship you're pursuing goes through the jump gate you don't lose target or follow them through you start going up and right on the map. maybe I'll take a really efficient ship and just let it follow until I find out what it's targeting lol

    Ahh. Added to list of things to fix. What it's doing is it's chasing the coordinates of the target, as if it was still in the same location.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 04:40:19 PM
    Ah, thank you! Hmm. Those look like modded ships on your side, are their deployment point costs really low? For some reason the campaign AI is thinking that it wants to fight, while the battle AI doesn't. Could be a bug, but looking at the code, it *should* properly account for mothballed ships (which would be another way this could happen, if the campaign AI assumed those were available for the fight.)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Chronosfear on September 13, 2013, 04:49:20 PM
    Ah, thank you! Hmm. Those look like modded ships on your side, are their deployment point costs really low? For some reason the campaign AI is thinking that it wants to fight, while the battle AI doesn't. Could be a bug, but looking at the code, it *should* properly account for mothballed ships (which would be another way this could happen, if the campaign AI assumed those were available for the fight.)
    Can confirm this with vanilla ...
    The don´t deploy their transports , that is why you instantly win but they still lose their deployment % ...
    so you should win in the end
    But i think there is another bug because i wasn´t able to plunder anything after they haven´t got any ships left.
    I must try that again to confirm
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: dogboy123 on September 13, 2013, 04:51:46 PM
    I love this new update, the game runs smoother. And the new sound effects are awesome, firing all my PD guns in a Lasher sounds like music! ;D. The new backgrounds and UI look fantastic.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: ciago92 on September 13, 2013, 04:54:20 PM

    As far as the fleet screen, I know what you mean. It was just a question of not being able to fit a side-by-side layout, given that the ship views are larger. (For quicker buying/selling, you can hover and press b->space or s->space, btw.)


    Is there any way to upgrade your ship then? I only have one ship, I am 1.5k short of the ship I'd like to buy, but I can't because I can't buy the new ship and sell the old one at the same time.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gotcha! on September 13, 2013, 04:57:35 PM
    @Alex:

    Deployment points = Fleet points in the .csv file?
    Then my ships are balanced, so nope. :)

    I just noticed interactability with planets. Whee!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Chronosfear on September 13, 2013, 05:02:07 PM
    Bla
    Bla

    Ok, just tried again.
    They didn´t deploy their transports ( confirmed )
    to win you have to "harass" them after the instant victory until they can´t deploy anymore. ( just deploy a single ship and hope you got enough readiness till the run out)
    -> this is probably the bug
    After that the last battle should follow where all enemy ships are retreating

    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 05:14:44 PM
    Bla
    Bla

    Ok, just tried again.
    They didn´t deploy their transports ( confirmed )
    to win you have to "harass" them after the instant victory until they can´t deploy anymore. ( just deploy a single ship and hope you got enough readiness till the run out)
    -> this is probably the bug
    After that the last battle should follow where all enemy ships are retreating

    Could you possibly send me a vanilla save where this happens? (fractalsoftworks [at] gmail [dot] com). I just tried it vs a pirate plunder fleet - whittled it down to just Tarsuses and a bunch of mothballed ships. At that point, they wanted to retreat and I had the "pursue them" option, so it was working as it's supposed to in that case.

    @Alex:
    Deployment points = Fleet points in the .csv file?
    Then my ships are balanced, so nope. :)

    Yeah. Hmm...


    As far as the fleet screen, I know what you mean. It was just a question of not being able to fit a side-by-side layout, given that the ship views are larger. (For quicker buying/selling, you can hover and press b->space or s->space, btw.)


    Is there any way to upgrade your ship then? I only have one ship, I am 1.5k short of the ship I'd like to buy, but I can't because I can't buy the new ship and sell the old one at the same time.

    No, you have to save enough to buy the new hull outright.

    I love this new update, the game runs smoother. And the new sound effects are awesome, firing all my PD guns in a Lasher sounds like music! ;D. The new backgrounds and UI look fantastic.

    :) Glad to hear it!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Erick Doe on September 13, 2013, 05:19:01 PM
    I really like the higher prices for supplies. Higher upkeep and more micro management is what I'm enjoying. The early struggle keeps things interesting. Even with all these increased costs I'm still finding it way too easy to obtain new ships. I'd like to see their prices increased at least three-fold. But I realise that these things still have to be balanced out.

    [edit]
    I find myself taking supplies into consideration every time I am about to leave port. Am I going on a long voyage? Do I need a lot of supplies? Can I afford enough? Do I have enough fuel to make it back to Corvus?

    These are all good things.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Chronosfear on September 13, 2013, 05:23:01 PM
    Could you possibly send me a vanilla save where this happens? (fractalsoftworks [at] gmail [dot] com). I just tried it vs a pirate plunder fleet - whittled it down to just Tarsuses and a bunch of mothballed ships. At that point, they wanted to retreat and I had the "pursue them" option, so it was working as it's supposed to in that case.
    sorry. I wasn´t clear enough i think :) the last battle is the "retreating battle" so this one works as supposed ( pursue )
    the bug i think is that you can lose versus transports because they won´t deploy so you will/could run out of deploys before the enemy does.

    "-> this is probably the bug" belongs to the line above  --> "to win you have to "harass" them after the instant victory until they can´t deploy anymore."

    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: BillyRueben on September 13, 2013, 05:24:39 PM
    Okay, that little bit of UI that shows up in the bottom left corner of the screen in the campaign view? Loving it.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: The Soldier on September 13, 2013, 05:25:57 PM
    Indeed. :) Although it looks bit out of place in windowed mode.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on September 13, 2013, 05:31:54 PM
    Beautiful! A shame I have to sleep now. How great that I wake up again tomorrow :D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gotcha! on September 13, 2013, 05:33:08 PM
    Euh, Alex, regarding to that bug me and Chronosfear posted;
    I wasn't aware new columns had been added to ship_data.csv. Is there a possibility it has to do with my ships lacking the CR to deploy?

    I am amazed my mods work fine without all these columns by the way. Are they all optional?

    @Gothars: How can you sleep at a time like this? :O
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Voyager I on September 13, 2013, 05:39:45 PM
    I really like the higher prices for supplies. Higher upkeep and more micro management is what I'm enjoying. The early struggle keeps things interesting. Even with all these increased costs I'm still finding it way too easy to obtain new ships. I'd like to see their prices increased at least three-fold. But I realise that these things still have to be balanced out.

    [edit]
    I find myself taking supplies into consideration every time I am about to leave port. Am I going on a long voyage? Do I need a lot of supplies? Can I afford enough? Do I have enough fuel to make it back to Corvus?

    These are all good things.

    I've found the high supply prices make things much simpler, actually.  You can kit out a second Lasher with your starting funds by selling some of your supplies, and then if you bring a ship with some cargo room to a decent fight you can pretty routinely walk away with fifteen thousand credits worth of surplus supplies on top of any other rewards.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 05:40:21 PM
    Could you possibly send me a vanilla save where this happens? (fractalsoftworks [at] gmail [dot] com). I just tried it vs a pirate plunder fleet - whittled it down to just Tarsuses and a bunch of mothballed ships. At that point, they wanted to retreat and I had the "pursue them" option, so it was working as it's supposed to in that case.
    sorry. I wasn´t clear enough i think :) the last battle is the "retreating battle" so this one works as supposed ( pursue )
    the bug i think is that you can lose versus transports because they won´t deploy so you will/could run out of deploys before the enemy does.

    I still don't understand; after you've had the "pursue" battle, it shouldn't be possible to have any more battles - at all - in the same encounter. Also, in the pursue battle, all of the enemy ships are deployed automatically - including mothballed stuff.

    Hmm. Let me check something - there's a case where if the retreating fleet is very large, it won't do the "pursue" battle because it's too big to deploy all at once. That could definitely cause this problem where it decides to fight because it's too large, despite not having any combat ships. But that still shouldn't be the issue if you're getting to the "pursue them" option.


    Euh, Alex, regarding to that bug me and Chronosfear posted;
    I wasn't aware new columns had been added to ship_data.csv. Is there a possibility it has to do with my ships lacking the CR to deploy?

    I am amazed my mods work fine without all these columns by the way. Are they all optional?

    Looks like your ships are combat-ready, or they'd have the red "crossed out star" icon over them. Fairly sure you're running into the 2nd case I mentioned above, where the fleet ought to run but it's too big - will check into this.

    And yeah, if the columns are missing, it'll try to compute some halfway-reasonable option for the ships, based on hull size.


    Okay, that little bit of UI that shows up in the bottom left corner of the screen in the campaign view? Loving it.

    Glad you like! That was a joint effort that took quite a bit of time and iteration :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Chronosfear on September 13, 2013, 05:59:44 PM
    hmm,
    I think we got each other wrong.
    after the pursue there arent anymore battles ... yep..

    but before.
    ex:
    1st battle : normal ( fighting enemy ships )
    2nd battle : normal ( fighting ships that survived the 1st battle etc. )
    3rd battle : instant victory ( enemy only got transports left but doesn´t deploy them )
    4th-x-th battle : instant victory ( as 3rd one but their DR is slowly droping due to the "harass" after the battle ) <- that is the one i think is wrong *
    last battle : normal ( pursue )

    * cause : if fleet ai wants to fight but not the battle ai ( so i have to harass the transports down because they won´t get deployed in battle )
    In the end if you don´t have enough CR left before his transports run out of CR you won´t get any loot ( some sort of loss ) , but 1 battle versus those transport or getting into a pursued battle when he only got his transports left should solve it

    so just the "middle" part is somewhat wrong.
    i hope this explains it better.




    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 06:03:46 PM
    Yes, thank you - really appreciate you breaking it down. I think that is the issue with the fleet being "too large" to retreat, will see what I can do there.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Luftwaffle on September 13, 2013, 06:11:27 PM
    It's.... sooo... beautiful!  ;D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Uomoz on September 13, 2013, 06:25:38 PM
    3:25 am, came back from a beer with friends. GOOD LUCK WITH MY SLEEP.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: MShadowy on September 13, 2013, 06:31:32 PM
    GOOD LUCK WITH SLEEP UOMOZ!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: ciago92 on September 13, 2013, 06:37:14 PM
    If you accidentally click on a fleet you're not hostile with and then select let them go (big enough to make them retreat I guess) it still is a hit to your reputation and they're now hostile
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: noego on September 13, 2013, 06:40:16 PM
    My smile has the shine of 1000 suns right now. Thanks!!!!!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Karlito on September 13, 2013, 07:36:24 PM
    New UI is pretty good, but my brain will take some time to get used to it. I do have one complaint though. When looting after a battle, I've twice left without taking anything at all, despite dropping items into my inventory/cargo bay. I guess it's possible to leave the screen without hitting that confirm button.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Alex on September 13, 2013, 08:02:39 PM
    I do have one complaint though. When looting after a battle, I've twice left without taking anything at all, despite dropping items into my inventory/cargo bay. I guess it's possible to leave the screen without hitting that confirm button.

    Thanks for mentioning it! Just checked - this does happen if you exit it by pressing the power button in the top right. Will fix that up for the 0.6.1a release. In the meantime, if you press "Escape" on your keyboard, or the "Continue" button in the UI, it will not deprive you of your hard-earned loot :)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: miro on September 13, 2013, 08:12:56 PM
    This is glorious. Sorry for whining at you Alex.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: ThePinkPanzer on September 13, 2013, 08:16:16 PM
    So it begins, the golden age of mods begins to dawn on us.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: sdmike1 on September 13, 2013, 08:20:37 PM
    Just adding my *** ya to the greater song of *** ya's
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Madgamer13 on September 13, 2013, 08:27:57 PM
    Awesome content patch, keeping a fleet alive requires more than chain battles now.  I love it.  Cheers Alex!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Uomoz on September 13, 2013, 08:40:06 PM
    God, it's so good. Feel like a completely, and better, different game.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: PCCL on September 13, 2013, 08:51:03 PM
    lucky friday the 13th huh :)

    pleasantly surprised, cheers to you good sir
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Histidine on September 13, 2013, 10:10:31 PM
    Quick, raise the price! (http://fractalsoftworks.com/preorder/)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: keptin on September 13, 2013, 10:37:45 PM
    It's go time  8)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: starfigter on September 13, 2013, 11:13:36 PM
    Its here!!!
    Hurray!!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Grug on September 13, 2013, 11:21:00 PM
    The new UI is hideous.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: ciago92 on September 13, 2013, 11:23:38 PM
    The new UI is hideous.

    you're kidding, right? I love it
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Lancefighter on September 13, 2013, 11:36:07 PM
    I have exactly one complaint about the new ui - I like to stack things up in my inventory. All of my people go on the left (in order of rank), and then all of my marines/fuel/supplies go in the column directly to the right. Problem is, on the new looting screen, it seems to place the second row of things all the way on the right for some reason. I feel like the size of the inventory should always stay consistent.

    Oh yeah, and it took me a solid minute to figure out how to buy ships. Everything else is drag and drop :(
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Grug on September 13, 2013, 11:38:15 PM
    I'm dead serious. It makes my eyes ache, it's so clunky and garish. I can't bring myself to play the new release today as a result.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: hairrorist on September 14, 2013, 01:02:56 AM
    Hahaha, sweet!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Sarolveldruk on September 14, 2013, 01:24:23 AM
    I'm dead serious. It makes my eyes ache, it's so clunky and garish. I can't bring myself to play the new release today as a result.
    I have to agree with you there, minus the last part (I owe it to Dwarf Fortress for being able to manage). Granted I've only played a few hours so far, but the thing I really enjoyed about the previous UI was that it was easier to discern information at a glance. Now, with the new UI, I have to squint as I mouse over the relevant bits, which isn't fun when the dang icons are rather small and difficult to tell apart.

    It is pretty clunky overall. The previous UI allowed for me to buy and sell items and ships via click and place. It was a nice visual interface that required very little in the way of "what does this button do?" And I'm not all fond of how the new interface takes up the whole screen every time I want to use it. The interface for exchanging ships is a fair bit tedious than before. Why the shift to buy/sell tabs from what was already working perfectly? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    That said, I do like how supplies are now much more precious than before. I just love coming across a hapless Buffalo for the sweet, sweet supplies within.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: RawCode on September 14, 2013, 01:38:51 AM
    new UI is not good, i can't see reason why some fields hidden from me and i forced to visit cargo just to see how many cargo space left or why supply drain soo high/.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on September 14, 2013, 02:16:21 AM
    I agree that the wealth of information is f****g intimidating.  I think that's an issue of the new logistic mechanics, not of the UI, though. I don't want to guess how it is for someone who never heard of these mechanics before. I'd tend to say it is well managed be the UI, but I'm not familiar enough with it yet.

    What I can say already is that the supply and fuel usage information are very useful indeed.


    Visually its a matter of opinion of course, I think it's really beautiful. With every iteration it moves further away from the colored excel sheet style. The physical UI style is awesome! Tripad! And I like how it takes the exact same screen-space as the combat UI.

    I'm playing at 1600x900 (on a 1920x1080 screen) by the way, so it's all a bit larger. Probably helps.


    new UI is not good, i can't see reason why some fields hidden from me and i forced to visit cargo just to see how many cargo space left or why supply drain soo high/.

    To see why your supply drain is high, just hover over "Supply Usage" and press F1. Its quicker to reach than before, actually.

    Cargo space is hidden because there is nothing to do with that information while in flight. I mean, you see your cargo capacity during looting/buying and it's not like you can suddenly get more of it after that.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Gothars on September 14, 2013, 03:14:06 AM
    Waah, I don't know what's going on with this game anymore! This is fun!  :D
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Tribula on September 14, 2013, 03:16:40 AM
    This update looks great, and I can't wait to try out all of the features. However, when I load a save, the game breaks (there are no sprites, I have no ship and the universe has come to a stand-still). Also, selecting 'no' on 'Exit game?' exits the game.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Lifeforce on September 14, 2013, 03:20:14 AM
    This update looks great, and I can't wait to try out all of the features. However, when I load a save, the game breaks (there are no sprites, I have no ship and the universe has come to a stand-still). Also, selecting 'no' on 'Exit game?' exits the game.

    Press spacebar to unpause the game ;)
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Chronosfear on September 14, 2013, 03:21:04 AM
    This update looks great, and I can't wait to try out all of the features. However, when I load a save, the game breaks (there are no sprites, I have no ship and the universe has come to a stand-still). Also, selecting 'no' on 'Exit game?' exits the game.

    New version , new game requiered.
    You have to start over from scratch.


    Yep the update is cool. After playing around a bit now.
    I never liked to us more then 1 or 2 ships in 0.54 , but now I´m having a real fleet with destroyes fighter and so !
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Luringen on September 14, 2013, 03:25:09 AM
    The new UI is BEAUTIFUL, but there is a lot of information there and the icons are too small, making it very hard to get used to. The build is very unstable for me as well, clicking my only ship in the fleet menu crashes the game, and when my only ship was destroyed during a boarding action the game crashed.
    Exception from the log (both are "Can't create nested lists using GLListManager":
    Spoiler
    578322 [Thread-6] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.D  - java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't create nested lists using GLListManager
    java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't create nested lists using GLListManager
       at com.fs.graphics.util.GLListManager.Object.super(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.ui.J.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.impl.O0OO.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.F.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.Z.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.float.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.D.O0oO.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.super.ôØ0000(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.B.øÒÒ000(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.super.super.new(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.combat.D.super(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$2.run(Unknown Source)
       at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:619)
    [close]

    Edit: And yeah, all fleets are invisible when loading a game until you unpause.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: FloW on September 14, 2013, 03:26:56 AM
    The new UI is BEAUTIFUL, but there is a lot of information there and the icons are too small, making it very hard to get used to. The build is very unstable for me as well, clicking my only ship in the fleet menu crashes the game, and when my only ship was destroyed during a boarding action the game crashed.
    Exception from the log (both are "Can't create nested lists using GLListManager":
    Spoiler
    578322 [Thread-6] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.D  - java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't create nested lists using GLListManager
    java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't create nested lists using GLListManager
       at com.fs.graphics.util.GLListManager.Object.super(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.ui.J.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.impl.O0OO.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.F.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.Z.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.float.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.D.O0oO.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.oOo0.renderImpl(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.ui.public.render(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.campaign.super.ôØ0000(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.B.øÒÒ000(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.super.super.new(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.combat.D.super(Unknown Source)
       at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$2.run(Unknown Source)
       at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:619)
    [close]

    That's a problem of RC1. Go and download the newest version (from the same page), it should end in RC4.
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Luringen on September 14, 2013, 04:29:31 AM
    Ah, didn't notice there was a hotfix out. Thanks!
    Title: Re: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes
    Post by: Faiter119 on September 14, 2013, 05:12:19 AM
    Ah lord finally its out! Again I have alot