Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: kazi on February 19, 2013, 03:36:39 PM
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Is it just me, or is the phase beam a very, very weak weapon? Virtually every other medium energy weapon is a better use of OP. If you want raw DPS, it's a better idea to equip heavy/mining blasters. If you want sustained fire, invest in pulse lasers. If you want to take down a shield, use graviton beams. Right now pulse lasers do everything the phase beam does, but better. The higher flux cost is offset by the fact that pulse lasers do far more DPS and have low OP costs, letting you equip more vents to offset the flux.
Aside from looking cool, what does the phase beam do well?
Anyhow the point of this post is that I think this gun needs to be reworked. It's really cool looking, but it currently has no role (I know it used to be a weapon that killed phase ships, but those mechanics aren't used anymore).
I personally believe that energy weapons tend to be a little weak in the anti-armor department (whereas ballistic weapons do all types of damage well). I think it would make this gun relevant again if the phase beam did high explosive damage instead of energy. Plus I'd feel like I was shooting one of the capital ship lasers from Freespace or something, just tear a ship apart if their shields went down. The phase beam would finally have some "oomph" to it.
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one word, EMP
To elaborate, making the phase beam like a mini tachyon lance would be rather awesome (in firing stile and on hit effects)
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It's a bigger tac laser that deals some EMP damage. It eats fighters and low-tech ships for dinner. But especially fighters.
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I actually think that Phase beams are very effective. Sure their DPS is low, but they could keep firing all day with their low flux build up. Once the enemies shields are down, the EMP will wreak havoc on their weapons and engines. Phase beams are also mildly effective against armor. They are just great all-around energy weapons.
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Pulse Laser is 10 OP to Phase Beam's 12, and generates over twice as much flux/second while having only 51% more DPS (and has shorter range). It's not really a beam substitute for sustained fire.
Phase Beam isn't a particularly strong weapon, but it does pay for itself in the right circumstances.
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Sad thing about all beam weapons are that once Alex put higher level NPC fleets in, against some ships firing beam weapons will cost you more flux than your target. Heck, they might be in that situation already against certain ships but I didn't do the math and only math I read was done on advanced tech ships with elite crew so IDK about that yet.
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Phase beams are my wpn of choice on a Medusa. Try it out with anti-matter front firing and some tactical lasers. Kind of funny how easily you can dominate with that set-up.
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I make heavy use of phase beams and (IR) puse lasers in combination the pulse weapons generate the hard flux to force shields to flicker or overload, at which point the phase beams start to chew up the armour and turn all their guns off, making them extremely useful in safely engaging armour heavy ships, this comosition deployed en mass makes for terrifying support/harrasment.
Edit :
I think it speaks well of the games excellent balance that people will contiuosly flag a weapon for being underpowered, to find a chorus of people telling them its actually great, and each time its a different weapon.
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They're also useful with rookie crews. They have no trouble hitting things while the pulse lasers would have a heck of a time hitting zippy ships.
If you've got 5 ranks in the increased damage versus armor skill you get the double damage to weapons and engines. It seems to double the EMP damage too. (I may be wrong)
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It is alsoworth noting that they have a very fast turn rate, and oft overlooked but very powerful factor on large ships that want the ability to easily tackle fast frigates/fighters without having to compromise firepower for point defence.
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Sad thing about all beam weapons are that once Alex put higher level NPC fleets in, against some ships firing beam weapons will cost you more flux than your target. Heck, they might be in that situation already against certain ships but I didn't do the math and only math I read was done on advanced tech ships with elite crew so IDK about that yet.
That's why i'm a cultist of the graviton beam...
just get any ship that can field 3 graviton beams and you are golden!
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2 phase beams + 2 tac lasers on a Medusa is just
no words
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I love Phase Beams when I'm soloing with an Eagle because of how fantastic they are at swatting bombers and frigates! A pair of phase beams on the sides with 2 tacs in front, and a heavy burst pd in the center makes for a mean anti-fighter/frigate setup.
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Sad thing about all beam weapons are that once Alex put higher level NPC fleets in, against some ships firing beam weapons will cost you more flux than your target. Heck, they might be in that situation already against certain ships but I didn't do the math and only math I read was done on advanced tech ships with elite crew so IDK about that yet.
That's why i'm a cultist of the graviton beam...
just get any ship that can field 3 graviton beams and you are golden!
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. If AI were to field elite crew ships with shield improving hullmods, when you fire that graviton beam, it is going to cost YOU more flux to fire the beam than the AI to maintain the shield against it. And since beam weapons doesn't produce hard flux, the flux loss is 100% loss without any benefit at that point.
But as others pointed out, beams are good "bully" weapon to use against smaller targets.
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If AI were to field elite crew ships with shield improving hullmods, when you fire that graviton beam, it is going to cost YOU more flux to fire the beam than the AI to maintain the shield against it. And since beam weapons doesn't produce hard flux, the flux loss is 100% loss without any benefit at that point.
But as others pointed out, beams are good "bully" weapon to use against smaller targets.
if if if; beam wpns have their place against more than just small targets. everything has a counter. i've taken down a lot of battlecruisers with beams, in a cruiser. it all just boils down to preference.
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If AI were to field elite crew ships with shield improving hullmods, when you fire that graviton beam, it is going to cost YOU more flux to fire the beam than the AI to maintain the shield against it. And since beam weapons doesn't produce hard flux, the flux loss is 100% loss without any benefit at that point.
But as others pointed out, beams are good "bully" weapon to use against smaller targets.
if if if; beam wpns have their place against more than just small targets. everything has a counter. i've taken down a lot of battlecruisers with beams, in a cruiser. it all just boils down to preference.
What is with you (that "if if if" part come off as real jackass *** man)... it's just fact, gravitron beam will end up with net flux dissipation loss on the shooter's side if the defender is a tri-tachyon ship with elite crew and a shield efficiency hullmod. And such ships will make appearance when game is more feature complete.
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I thing to remember though, not every weapon in this game has to be viable in comparison to other weapons in combat. Just like the Buffalo, in the final game a weapon can be the one your stuck with not necessarily the one you want. It turns out others have found a use for Phase Beams, but this is something to keep in mind.
A "useless" weapon could in turn have a use in a rag-tag rusting sorry excuse for a fleet that a poor mercenary could scrape of the bottom of the space-depo.
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I thing to remember though, not every weapon in this game has to be viable in comparison to other weapons in combat. Just like the Buffalo, in the final game a weapon can be the one your stuck with not necessarily the one you want. It turns out others have found a use for Phase Beams, but this is something to keep in mind.
A "useless" weapon could in turn have a use in a rag-tag rusting sorry excuse for a fleet that a poor mercenary could scrape of the bottom of the space-depo.
I never said this was a problem. OP said it was useless. I said there was a sad fact about the beam weapons because it is the only weapon type that can be 100% worse off for the user if target achieve certain level of shield-flux ratio. I even pointed out certain situation where beams actually excel, namely killing off faster/smaller targets.
Because of the same reasons you provided, this sad situation may very well work to enhance the gameplay for all we know thus far anyways :)
Edit: Correction, I did suggest that beam weapons were pointless but I said that like 10 months ago or something in another thread.
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If AI were to field elite crew ships with shield improving hullmods, when you fire that graviton beam, it is going to cost YOU more flux to fire the beam than the AI to maintain the shield against it. And since beam weapons doesn't produce hard flux, the flux loss is 100% loss without any benefit at that point.
But as others pointed out, beams are good "bully" weapon to use against smaller targets.
if if if; beam wpns have their place against more than just small targets. everything has a counter. i've taken down a lot of battlecruisers with beams, in a cruiser. it all just boils down to preference.
What is with you (that "if if if" part come off as real jackass *** man)... it's just fact, gravitron beam will end up with net flux dissipation loss on the shooter's side if the defender is a tri-tachyon ship with elite crew and a shield efficiency hullmod. And such ships will make appearance when game is more feature complete.
Meh, its the famous interwebs. Its all in how you read it. Next time I'll type in what tone I said the comment (ex. mild exasperation) and put no less than three smilies next to it to ensure no one feels offended. More to the point, you have all very valid points. Just making sure people aren't writing off wpn types for kicks. :) :) :) I'm just a big fan of beams and I'm laying down some pretend hate down on naysayers.
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If you think beams are worthless, complete Forlorn Hope using only these weapons: Tactical Laser, Phase Beam, High Intensity Laser. You can practically just set everything on autofire and micro fortress shield as required... even the Onslaught and Dominator melt away under the impossible barrage of beams.
And yes, beams become more powerful the better the flux/shield efficiency of the firing ship is. That's why you almost always find them on high-tech ships.
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Beams are extremely useful against pirate fleets, small ships, and low tech ships. They aren't as good against high tech ships and the biggest ships.
And while their damage/flux might look low, if the ship shooting them has high flux the damage goes up because they are energy weapons.
They are also good for newbies because they don't miss.
They have their place, and their weaknesses.
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If AI were to field elite crew ships with shield improving hullmods, when you fire that graviton beam, it is going to cost YOU more flux to fire the beam than the AI to maintain the shield against it. And since beam weapons doesn't produce hard flux, the flux loss is 100% loss without any benefit at that point.
But as others pointed out, beams are good "bully" weapon to use against smaller targets.
if if if; beam wpns have their place against more than just small targets. everything has a counter. i've taken down a lot of battlecruisers with beams, in a cruiser. it all just boils down to preference.
What is with you (that "if if if" part come off as real jackass *** man)... it's just fact, gravitron beam will end up with net flux dissipation loss on the shooter's side if the defender is a tri-tachyon ship with elite crew and a shield efficiency hullmod. And such ships will make appearance when game is more feature complete.
I think you need a timeout.
Your opinion is not God around here.
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I think you need a timeout.
Your opinion is not God around here.
Thank-you for your contribution. Since a few people misunderstood my statement, allow me to clarify. Gaizo provided a scenario with a few 'ifs'. If this and if this and if this, then this happens. I was saying that is a lot of ifs by saying if if if. There's no need to be so defensive. Oh and please edit your comment outside of the quote in the future so we can see what you're saying without reading through the last several posts.
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Jesus! People who cares what weapons you use! Its a matter of personal opinion and what your play style is I personally like tanky hard hitting ships that are slowish but can turn and stab you in the kidneys (usually antimatter and lotta missiles), it was someone else's OPINION that the phase beams are pointless, I disagree with it but I see that they don't like them and probably can't change his mind and ProwlingMules statement was not at all offensive or at all up his own arse he was answering a question which had a large amount of ifs in it does not mean he was intentionally meaning to sound (to some people) that he knew best!
(also i think that Shield was referring to Gaizokubanou's quote not yours)
Before I get some Butt hurt I AM NOT taking any sides, I use what weapons I can loot usually so I know how to use them if i lose my primary ship and then can use other ships with different weapons.
So just calm down people and don't accuse each other of things that are not intentional or acting like your opinion is the best, what happens is someone else comes along and see's this and then has a much better argument than yours and then everyone loses (thats not me by the way, I was just trying to stop any accusations on either party)
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Please stop being so hostile people :) It isnt the spirit of this forum.
I like the phase beam, it has some of the better DPS for a beam and is a good choice on ships that can support its relatively high FPS. I usually use it on medium and high tech ships, it has great damage against armor, but the damage against shields is sub-par compared to the graviton beam. This would make it a good beam choice against low tech targets, but it is also great against high tech ships because it has good dmg and can cleave high tech armor down in a short amount of time. I also find it great against fighters as the high damage can swat them down easily, the graviton beam is also good vs fighters, but the spinning effect sometimes cause me more harm than good, though I think the graviton is better against bombers, as it can make them lose track of the target. The emp effect is also quite noticeable, but not the main selling point of the weapon, more of an extra treat that makes it suit the offensive role better.
Tl:dr: Its good, I like it
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Please stop being so hostile people :) It isnt the spirit of this forum.
I like the phase beam, it has some of the better DPS for a beam and is a good choice on ships that can support its relatively high FPS. I usually use it on medium and high tech ships, it has great damage against armor, but the damage against shields is sub-par compared to the graviton beam. This would make it a good beam choice against low tech targets, but it is also great against high tech ships because it has good dmg and can cleave high tech armor down in a short amount of time. I also find it great against fighters as the high damage can swat them down easily, the graviton beam is also good vs fighters, but the spinning effect sometimes cause me more harm than good, though I think the graviton is better against bombers, as it can make them lose track of the target. The emp effect is also quite noticeable, but not the main selling point of the weapon, more of an extra treat that makes it suit the offensive role better.
Tl:dr: Its good, I like it
YAY! Someone else who is trying to stop this madness (also your argument is good for phase beams)
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They have their place, and their weaknesses.
Been trying to say that with concrete example of their weakness, but for some reason people think I'm putting down beam weapons ???
Also Shield, I don't know why you would get the impression that I valued my opinion as some deity... I was sticking to a fact based on game mechanic and was clarifying that it wasn't my opinion (outside of feeling sad about this particular weakness of beams) but just the way the game works.
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They have their place, and their weaknesses.
Been trying to say that with concrete example of their weakness, but for some reason people think I'm putting down beam weapons ???
Also Shield, I don't know why you would get the impression that I valued my opinion as some deity... I was sticking to a fact based on game mechanic and was clarifying that it wasn't my opinion (outside of feeling sad about this particular weakness of beams) but just the way the game works.
Well you basically came in and said, graviton beams/phase beam is *** on high end ships with such and such, last I checked that is not in the game at the moment so basically who cares, if the man like phase beams/graviton beams let him like his phase beams/graviton beams.
AND I LIKE PHASE BEAMS AND GRAVITON BEAMS TOO!!!1111ONE!!1!!11
Get so tired of people coming on to forums to bash other peoples opinions like they have nothing else to do.
And honestly we wont even know if enemy ships get these supposed bonus' either.
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Get so tired of people coming on to forums to bash other peoples opinions like they have nothing else to do.
Honestly, I can't detect any "bashing" in Gaizokubanou's posts. He just stated his opinion. Then there was a misunderstanding about ProwlingMule's intended tone, which the users cleared up quickly.
I think you need a timeout.
Your opinion is not God around here.
I would strongly advice you to leave moderation to the moderators. If you have nothing to contribute to the topic of a thread, keep out of it.
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They have their place, and their weaknesses.
Been trying to say that with concrete example of their weakness, but for some reason people think I'm putting down beam weapons ???
Also Shield, I don't know why you would get the impression that I valued my opinion as some deity... I was sticking to a fact based on game mechanic and was clarifying that it wasn't my opinion (outside of feeling sad about this particular weakness of beams) but just the way the game works.
I mean you did say the guy was coming off like a jackass, that kinda says it right there.
But I guess this is where I get banned for liking beam weapons too, and I honestly think beams don't have that much of a weakness other than attacking armor.
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I mean you did say the guy was coming off like a jackass, that kinda says it right there.
So if I felt that someone was coming off bit douche (which turned out be misunderstanding), that automatically means I have some sort of narcissistic god-complex? That's one hell of a jump to make.
Well you basically came in and said, graviton beams/phase beam is *** on high end ships with such and such, last I checked that is not in the game at the moment so basically who cares, if the man like phase beams/graviton beams let him like his phase beams/graviton beams.
So.... that's offensive how? They are bad against high end ships, some of which may or may not be fielded by the AI yet (but most likely will be, as the expectation of the future contents include AI fleets featuring character aptitudes that are only available to players yet). That's just how the game mechanics work, that's their weakness. What's wrong with stating purely mechanical fact about how this game is, unless you think it's offensive to state weakness of a weapon in a thread that's about discussing its balance?