Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Gothars on December 08, 2012, 09:36:43 AM

Title: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Gothars on December 08, 2012, 09:36:43 AM
Ok, this has been suggested before, but I refined the idea a bit. I'll be honest, the main reason I'd like this is because it's just incredible cool to have fighters start from carriers. Formations of Tie Fighters launching from Star Destroyers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tBM2ZfncoU #t=0m24s) , Viper Squadrons launching from Battelstars and Clouds of Cylon Raiders from Basestars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTwak89sQZw), Swarms of Interceptors from the Homeworld Mothership – all dramatic and memorable moments. The gradual fighter appearance on the map boarder in SF is just a bit pale in comparison.

I think one reason that carrier deployment is not in the game is that it would be a pain to manage without adding that much to the gameplay. (here is a recap of what it would add anyway: )
Spoiler
- A not permanent retreat for fighters that are currently not needed, but might be needed later on. Think Talons waiting to recapture objectives after the enemy Wasps have been dealet with, bombers waiting for the second enemy capship to appear etcetera.
- Possibility of carrier surprise launch makes carriers a less easy and predictable target
- Easier coordination of bomber runs
[close]


Suggestion:
So here's an idea how it would be easy to manage: Utilize the new group number system (strg+ 1 etc.). A group could be associated with a carrier. A carrier would get only one additional command: A launch / do not launch toggle (standard setting: launch). If a carrier is deployed before the associated fighters, they will all be docked (as many as fit in the hangar). If you then deploy them via the reinforcement menu, they will start from the carrier (if deployed before carrier, they start from the boarder as now). Refitting, repairing and re-launching would then be normal. At least until you toggle the launch button, then all fighters of the associated group would stay docked after they come back for repairs. Fighters outside the group and normal carrier activities would not be influenced by this whatsoever.

One question that is left is how to associate a carrier with a group. Here is an idea: Mark the carrier with a different combination, for example Alt+1. That might even be expendable later on as a general support group function, so things like freighters and repair ships can be associated with a group without following the same orders. Another way would be to just let the carrier be in same strg group, but have it ignore all direct order issued to the whole group. Other ideas are welcome.

In the end this would add very little complexity (one button, one key command at worst)  for a good amount of gameplay and optic value.

Pictures:
Deploy button (near "Other" commands) deactivated, all fighter of group 1 are inside the carrier (which is in group "support 1"). You can see what's inside the carrier:
Spoiler
(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/4558/carriernodeploy.png)
[close]


Deploy button toggled, fighters start:
Spoiler
(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8338/carrierdeploy.png)
[close]

e/ I will answer everything after I have enjoyed my post count a bit more.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Thaago on December 08, 2012, 10:04:53 AM
I've previously been pretty skeptical of this idea, but you've really sold me. I really really like the docked fighters showing up in the ship info panel!

Quote
A not permanent retreat for fighters that are currently not needed, but might be needed later on. Think Talons waiting to recapture objectives after the enemy Wasps have been dealet with, bombers waiting for the second enemy capship to appear etcetera.

This would require a direct order for fighters: Dock. But with the new command system thats not a problem - you could dock any number of fighters for 1 CP with 2 key presses. Of course any carrier that has a fighter ordered to dock at it would have their launch toggle set to Do Not Launch.

Can we assign combat groups out of combat at the moment? (From the fleet screen?) I don't think we can. If we could: assign fighters to a group (a little number would appear under the picture of the wing). Drag any fighter onto a carrier to assign all fighters in that group to that carrier. (The fleet screen needs a little bit of TLC, so speculation on this might be a bit moot).


Here is one concern: say you launch a carrier with fighters inside, but do not have the FP to deploy the fighters. The carrier is destroyed before you have the FP - are the fighters destroyed? I would say yes!
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: erynr73 on December 08, 2012, 10:26:51 AM
Being able to send fighters back to dock with the carrier until needed is a great idea.  I usually have to assign them to a way point in the corner so they don't get destroyed by the enemy.  Then you could include a feature that would make them return to the carrier by default whenever their assigned objective is complete, instead of wandering the map getting destroyed.  Also instead of assigning the fighters to an objective you assign the carrier, the carrier AI would deploy the most appropriate fighter (bombers for strike, interceptors for captures, launch all when carrier is under fire).  But that may be less"simple".  
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Vind on December 08, 2012, 10:34:59 AM
The idea is good but why only launch from carriers? Many cruisers have large hangar space too. Generally it is a nice idea.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Jazwana on December 08, 2012, 12:31:04 PM
Re: above

The lore for hangar space is that it exists for traveling with fighters on board between systems using the jump drive, however hangar space by itself is not conducive to flight ops i.e. fast take off and landing (and repairs) that a battle would require.  A flight deck is needed for that.

The reasoning is that if any ship with hangar space can launch fighters then while a carrier retains its ability to repair, carriers lose out on the additional uniqueness and functionality that this post is trying to add.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: erynr73 on December 08, 2012, 01:01:05 PM
When I use the term carriers I mean only ships with a flight deck.  Otherwise if you only have hanger space then fighter would behave the same as they do now, or can only be deployed once then the are stuck on the battle field.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Gothars on December 08, 2012, 01:32:58 PM
I've previously been pretty skeptical of this idea, but you've really sold me. I really really like the docked fighters showing up in the ship info panel!

Good to hear  :)

It would be best if not only docked (meaning currently in hangar) wings would be shown but also the ones currently repairing and rearming (meaning currently on the flightdeck). On all carriers, not only Base Carriers. There could even be a little timer. The way I imagine it docked wings would get repaired to, one after the other with normal times, as long as no other wing is occupying the flight deck.

This would require a direct order for fighters: Dock. But with the new command system thats not a problem - you could dock any number of fighters for 1 CP with 2 key presses. Of course any carrier that has a fighter ordered to dock at it would have their launch toggle set to Do Not Launch.

Don't know if you meant that, but it would not require at new dock order, the current Rearm and Repair will work like a dock order as long as Launch is inactive. 


Can we assign combat groups out of combat at the moment? (From the fleet screen?) I don't think we can. If we could: assign fighters to a group (a little number would appear under the picture of the wing). Drag any fighter onto a carrier to assign all fighters in that group to that carrier. (The fleet screen needs a little bit of TLC, so speculation on this might be a bit moot).

No, we can't at the moment. As you said, the whole menu will probably get an overhaul, the potential improvements are accumulating more and more.

Here is one concern: say you launch a carrier with fighters inside, but do not have the FP to deploy the fighters. The carrier is destroyed before you have the FP - are the fighters destroyed? I would say yes!

Yeah, that's a little risk you'd have to take. The price for being able to protect multiple damaged wings instead of having them circle the carrier. I'd say it would be a rare case though, usually you deploy your fighters way before the enemy reaches your carrier.

Being able to send fighters back to dock with the carrier until needed is a great idea.  I usually have to assign them to a way point in the corner so they don't get destroyed by the enemy.  Then you could include a feature that would make them return to the carrier by default whenever their assigned objective is complete, instead of wandering the map getting destroyed.

Yeah, fighter protecting is a bit awkward at the moment. Especially since retreating them is not much of an option either, now that CP are so limited it will cost your half your command abilities to retreat your capture interceptors.

Also instead of assigning the fighters to an objective you assign the carrier, the carrier AI would deploy the most appropriate fighter (bombers for strike, interceptors for captures, launch all when carrier is under fire).  But that may be less"simple". 

Most carriers don't have enough hangar space to support multiple kinds of wings, and in many situations some of your fighters will be without a Base Carrier. I think it's better to keep controlling your wings directly.


Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Gaizokubanou on December 09, 2012, 01:05:08 PM
I support the general idea of this since I would love to see any improvement to fighter/bomber to carrier functionality.

About fighter-carrier association...  Just make it simple so that you can click-drag-drop a wing to a carrier on fleet management page.  Then keep the wing on fleet page but grey/fade it out with a note that tells you which ship it is assigned to, and have some small icon for carriers that tells you how many wings are assigned to it.  For flavor maybe destroyers get 3 wings, 4 for cruisers and 5 for capital, or 3 per flight deck or whatever that works.

Another suggestion I want to slip in through this thread is maybe by carrying fighters into the battle through carriers, wings get fleet point discount for battle deployment only?  This idea was suggested before and it seem to go hand in hand with this suggestion.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: TJJ on December 09, 2012, 03:28:31 PM
Here's my idea:

- Increase FP cost of carriers in proportion to (but less than) their fighter capacity. (I'd suggest ~66%)
- Fighters assigned to carriers now cost 0 FP.

This would have a number of effects:

- Carriers would be a more efficient means of both transporting fighters in your fleet, and deploying them into battle. You'd get more 'bang(fighters) for your buck(FP)'.
- Underutilized carriers would be an incredibly wasteful use of Fleet Points.
- lose a carrier without losing any its fighter wings, and you'll likely find your fleet jumps over both its fighter & fleet point limits.

Astral: 22 + 50*2/3 = ~55FP
Condor & Gemini: 9+15*2/3 = ~19FP
Odyssey: 18+30*2/3 = ~38FP
Venture: 12+25*2/3 = ~28FP

Obviously these numbers could be tweaked to represent the efficiency of the various carrier designs.
For instance, the Astral being a dedicated high tech carrier would be a more efficient design so perhaps 50%(47FP) rather than 66%(55FP) of its fighter capacity would suite it better.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Gothars on December 09, 2012, 03:50:06 PM
Another suggestion I want to slip in through this thread is maybe by carrying fighters into the battle through carriers, wings get fleet point discount for battle deployment only?  This idea was suggested before and it seem to go hand in hand with this suggestion.
Mh...that's good. Gives more incentive for a good carrier fighter infrastructure. Fighters will have to catch up after the other ships got all those OP improvements, to build up the synergy effect between fighters and carriers would be a nice way of realizing that.


Here's my idea:

Interesting idea, but it would not work. How many FP would it cost to deploy a assigned wing before it's carrier?
- Zero FP? You can just spam fighters.
- Normal fighter FP? You will not have enough FP left to deploy the carrier.
- You cant launch fighters before the carrier? Fighters become useless because they can't deploy early to capture points.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: TJJ on December 09, 2012, 04:14:20 PM
Another suggestion I want to slip in through this thread is maybe by carrying fighters into the battle through carriers, wings get fleet point discount for battle deployment only?  This idea was suggested before and it seem to go hand in hand with this suggestion.
Mh...that's good. Gives more incentive for a good carrier fighter infrastructure. Fighters will have to catch up after the other ships got all those OP improvements, to build up the synergy effect between fighters and carriers would be a nice way of realizing that.


Here's my idea:

Interesting idea, but it would not work. How many FP would it cost to deploy a assigned wing before it's carrier?
- Zero FP? You can just spam fighters.
- Normal fighter FP? You will not have enough FP left to deploy the carrier.
- You cant launch fighters before the carrier? Fighters become useless because they can't deploy early to capture points.

3rd one, and yes - no more charging forward with fighters to cap all the points.
Fighters should be unable to capture objective points.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Squigzilla on December 09, 2012, 04:29:50 PM
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ruthlessly poke holes in people's ideas.  I love the general concept of reinforcing your fleet with fighters launched directly from carriers, and I'd love to help refine this concept into something truly awesome.

Here's my idea:

- Increase FP cost of carriers in proportion to (but less than) their fighter capacity. (I'd suggest ~66%)
- Fighters assigned to carriers now cost 0 FP.


Personally, I don't feel that adjusting fleet point values in this way is a good idea.  The difference in combat effectiveness of a Talon wing (3 FP) and a Warthog wing (10 FP) is huge, and fighters are balanced around these fleet point costs.  Say I could assign three wings of fighters to my Gemini -- why would I deploy three Talon wings when I could send out three Warthog wings for the same cost?  IMO, this requires too much balancing work for too small a benefit.

I have a different suggestion: i think fighters deployed at the start of a battle should start outside of a carrier (or launch the moment the first carrier arrives on screen).  One of the best uses for fighters is as point-cappers, and this functionality is wasted if the pilots start each battle twiddling their thumbs in a Condor's hangar bay.  Plus, I love the image of a huge Conquest drifting through space while swarms of fighters streak by on their way to objectives.

If a player wanted to reinforce their fleet mid-battle, they could launch fighters directly from carriers instead of bringing them in from off-map.  Wings of fighters could be assigned to any carrier (i.e. ship with a flight deck) on the fleet organization screen, provided that each carrier did not exceed its hangar space limit.  During battle, fighters could be deployed from carriers as deployment points allow.  The catch is that each carrier has a significant "recharge time" for this deployment ability; each flight deck could have something like a 10 second cooldown, possibly adjusted up or down relative to the FP cost of the fighters.  This seems short enough to make this ability relevant while not allowing a single Condor to disgorge 30 FP of Thunders the instant it comes under attack.  It also allows ships with multiple flight decks to shine, giving the much-maligned Astral the ability to scramble three fighter wings at a time!  IMO, this level of power is acceptable for a capital ship but would be game-breaking when given to destroyer-sized ships.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: TJJ on December 09, 2012, 05:23:47 PM
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and ruthlessly poke holes in people's ideas.  I love the general concept of reinforcing your fleet with fighters launched directly from carriers, and I'd love to help refine this concept into something truly awesome.

Here's my idea:

- Increase FP cost of carriers in proportion to (but less than) their fighter capacity. (I'd suggest ~66%)
- Fighters assigned to carriers now cost 0 FP.


Personally, I don't feel that adjusting fleet point values in this way is a good idea.  The difference in combat effectiveness of a Talon wing (3 FP) and a Warthog wing (10 FP) is huge, and fighters are balanced around these fleet point costs.  Say I could assign three wings of fighters to my Gemini -- why would I deploy three Talon wings when I could send out three Warthog wings for the same cost?  IMO, this requires too much balancing work for too small a benefit.

You misunderstand; my proposal wouldn't allow you to do that.
The carriers still have their fighter capacity restricting how many FP-worth of fighters they can carry. In the case of the Gemini that's 15FP-worth of fighters.

The only difference I'm proposing is that the FP cost of fighters be rolled into the FP cost of the carrier; though with a slight discount to make carriers a more efficient way of delivering fighters into battle.
Another way of looking at it, is that the FP cost of the carrier itself would be significantly reduced, BUT ONLY so long as it's being fully utilized for its intended role. (carrying fighter craft).
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Gothars on December 09, 2012, 06:44:41 PM
The only difference I'm proposing is that the FP cost of fighters be rolled into the FP cost of the carrier; though with a slight discount to make carriers a more efficient way of delivering fighters into battle.

Mh... I feel that Gaizokubanou's idea of just lowering the FP needed to start a wing from a carrier would archive the same without such a fundamental change. I don't see whats good about making fighters useless for capturing.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Iscariot on January 10, 2013, 11:30:56 PM
For what it's worth, I think this is a good idea.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Sproginator on January 11, 2013, 12:44:37 AM
For what it's worth, I think this is a good idea.
As do I :)
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: ArkAngel on January 12, 2013, 09:28:28 PM
For what it's worth, I think this is a good idea.
As do I :)
ditto
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: zakastra on January 14, 2013, 07:49:57 AM
At the risk of turning this thread into a list of +1's I think the idea is well thought out, would contribute a lot to the game thematically, in terms of awesome, and give you a nice way of keeping your fighters out of the meat grinder when its too dangerous for them to be flying about.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: firstattak1 on January 14, 2013, 12:14:58 PM
Love this idea, but here's my thoughts. Fighters should be 0fp but you need hanger space to use the , except maybe for some ships that seem really good. Yes this could eliminate small lone fighters but instead just hav alone fighters with a lousy carrier.

Btw Question: why is fighters fp if we have hanger space?
Because to me there is no reason to have it.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Pendragon on January 14, 2013, 12:57:06 PM
Love this idea, but here's my thoughts. Fighters should be 0fp but you need hanger space to use the , except maybe for some ships that seem really good. Yes this could eliminate small lone fighters but instead just hav alone fighters with a lousy carrier.

Btw Question: why is fighters fp if we have hanger space?
Because to me there is no reason to have it.

I can see this working except for one problem. At the start of combat you would be forced to deploy your carrier rather than individual fighter wings and frigates. Most worth-while carriers are at least cruiser class and the vast majority of them are capital ships. This would use up almost your entire starting FP allotment. Rather than making fighters more versatile it forces an almost all or nothing choice on a player. Does he want to deploy his carrier and have fighters available immediately or does he want to be able to utilize frigates or destroyers?

At the moment, fighters, as useful as they are in certain situations, are woefully under-powered in general combat and without heavier backup can very quickly get picked apart. Particularly cheap/early game ones like the talon or piranha class. If you've only got fighters and a carrier on the field but your opponent fields a series of fast/powerful frigates he may be able to intercept you before you capture the points you need to bring on backup and at that point you are well and truly screwed because fighters vs frigates is only going to end one way.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Gaizokubanou on January 14, 2013, 01:16:28 PM
Love this idea, but here's my thoughts. Fighters should be 0fp but you need hanger space to use the , except maybe for some ships that seem really good. Yes this could eliminate small lone fighters but instead just hav alone fighters with a lousy carrier.

Btw Question: why is fighters fp if we have hanger space?
Because to me there is no reason to have it.

I can see this working except for one problem. At the start of combat you would be forced to deploy your carrier rather than individual fighter wings and frigates. Most worth-while carriers are at least cruiser class and the vast majority of them are capital ships. This would use up almost your entire starting FP allotment. Rather than making fighters more versatile it forces an almost all or nothing choice on a player. Does he want to deploy his carrier and have fighters available immediately or does he want to be able to utilize frigates or destroyers?

At the moment, fighters, as useful as they are in certain situations, are woefully under-powered in general combat and without heavier backup can very quickly get picked apart. Particularly cheap/early game ones like the talon or piranha class. If you've only got fighters and a carrier on the field but your opponent fields a series of fast/powerful frigates he may be able to intercept you before you capture the points you need to bring on backup and at that point you are well and truly screwed because fighters vs frigates is only going to end one way.

I don't follow this argument.  Carriers, all 5 of them, aren't particularly expensive in FP, especially the ever so popular and versatile Venture (12 FP for a cruiser what?).  And for the really confusing part, there are plenty of non-carrier ships with hanger space... so what the hell?

To top that off, if fighters/bombers were to cost zero flight points with enough hanger space, you can bring in those fancy regular ships and fighters would be included in your fleet in addition for FREE, so what are you talking about needing to bring in more reinforcements?
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Pendragon on January 14, 2013, 02:12:41 PM
I don't follow this argument.  Carriers, all 5 of them, aren't particularly expensive in FP, especially the ever so popular and versatile Venture (12 FP for a cruiser what?).  And for the really confusing part, there are plenty of non-carrier ships with hanger space... so what the hell?

To top that off, if fighters/bombers were to cost zero flight points with enough hanger space, you can bring in those fancy regular ships and fighters would be included in your fleet in addition for FREE, so what are you talking about needing to bring in more reinforcements?

My point was that while carriers are not particularly expensive in FP for their class they're also not, in general, particularly powerful for their class in my experience. Taking the venture as an example. It has only one flight deck so can only deploy one fighter wing from it at a time. For the same cost you can field three or four frigates or even a Medusa. That free fighter wing is going bye-bye it comes up against that. Heck, even the Venture itself, when it does manage to truck into combat, is not going to be able to deal with the Medusa if its piloted effectively.

As I said, I love the idea of being able to deploy fighters from carriers during an engagement but I just don't think this is the way to do it.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: firstattak1 on January 14, 2013, 03:16:56 PM
Well maybe this will balance fleets out? Because right now it seems that frigates are really only for capturing ATM( or that what I've seen from me and the two youtubers) and they as well as well as fighters need more uses. This could fix these both.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Pendragon on January 14, 2013, 04:37:24 PM
Well maybe this will balance fleets out? Because right now it seems that frigates are really only for capturing ATM( or that what I've seen from me and the two youtubers) and they as well as well as fighters need more uses. This could fix these both.

It depends on where you are in the game. Early on and even into the mid-game a fast attack pack of frigates can be devastating. Later on though when you're up against cruisers and capital ships I think its right that frigates get relegated to a scouting/harassing role since if they were a serious threat to ships of that size why would anyone bother with a Capital ship?

Fighters are always useful in a scouting role but as long as you don't mind taking a few casualties they remain useful right through the game for harassing and slowing down the enemy's bigger ships. Holding up an Onslaught by forcing it to raise its shields and take pot shots at a couple of squads of wasps can very easily give you the extra time you need to get a pair of strike cruisers into position to intercept it.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: ArkAngel on January 14, 2013, 05:26:17 PM
Well maybe this will balance fleets out? Because right now it seems that frigates are really only for capturing ATM( or that what I've seen from me and the two youtubers) and they as well as well as fighters need more uses. This could fix these both.

It depends on where you are in the game. Early on and even into the mid-game a fast attack pack of frigates can be devastating. Later on though when you're up against cruisers and capital ships I think its right that frigates get relegated to a scouting/harassing role since if they were a serious threat to ships of that size why would anyone bother with a Capital ship?

Fighters are always useful in a scouting role but as long as you don't mind taking a few casualties they remain useful right through the game for harassing and slowing down the enemy's bigger ships. Holding up an Onslaught by forcing it to raise its shields and take pot shots at a couple of squads of wasps can very easily give you the extra time you need to get a pair of strike cruisers into position to intercept it.

Fighters also stop other bombers.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Iscariot on January 14, 2013, 06:36:01 PM
Not very effectively. As far as anti-bomber measures go, point defense and maneuvering work better for me. I use interceptors as point cappers more than I use them as.... interceptors.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: The Soldier on January 14, 2013, 07:29:29 PM
Deploying fighters from carriers IS indeed a good idea, but even though I want that REALLY bad, I see no real use for it.  Yea, you can hide fighters inside the safety of the carrier...until another ship comes along and takes out two birds with one stone. -_-
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: ArkAngel on January 14, 2013, 07:56:13 PM
Makes it easier to deploy fighters closer to the fight? Also gives them a place to hide from aa ships.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Iscariot on January 14, 2013, 08:04:54 PM
I don't think it should be optional, personally, if it's gonna be in.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: dogboy123 on January 14, 2013, 08:13:26 PM
I support it 100%. :P
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Gaizokubanou on January 15, 2013, 02:24:29 AM
My point was that while carriers are not particularly expensive in FP for their class they're also not, in general, particularly powerful for their class in my experience. Taking the venture as an example. It has only one flight deck so can only deploy one fighter wing from it at a time.

So what if it can only deploy one wing at a time?  Soon as it enters combat it can launch all of its wings long before any combat occurs.

Quote
For the same cost you can field three or four frigates

Only frigate you can take in number of 3 or 4 for 12 FP would be Hound.  Everything else is 2 (except for hyperion and that fuel frigate... and unless I'm forgetting something like how much phase shift ships costs).

And you are still forgetting that particular suggestion you quoted.

0 FP cost for the fighters and bombers that are deployed with the carrier.

For 12 FP, if you can take a venture and are allowed to fill its hangar space worth of fighters/bombers, that has to be the best bang for FP you can get.  If anything, this suggestion would make carriers too good and will probably not be implemented for that reason.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Gothars on January 15, 2013, 02:57:16 AM
I did not quite get what the advantage of 0FP fighters would be yet. So...what would the advantage of 0FP fighters be?
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: firstattak1 on January 15, 2013, 06:20:02 AM
Well u was just confused on why fighters have to have hanger space and fp? Having both makes no scince other than if there was no fp then they could be spammed, but I'm saying is that fighters, although very useful without, needs a carrier to survive long term battle, and if you don't have one, and your facing a big fleet...you can say bye to all your fighters.(like 70% of the time)

One last thing, well what I was thinking is a carrier can only deploy 1 frigate in a period of time, or per flight deck.(time based on what's balanced) and so the only really menacing carrier is the capital ship(which the name escapes me) and this should be a meanesing ship.

Oh and just of a fix for that issue!! So fighters have a "early deployment" fp if you want/need to deploy them without a carrier. And fighters have a special fp that pertains to them an acts like fp, in the fact that you gain more with beacons and such.

Ps: just though most  of this up and not sure what this would limit or make things op.

Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: The Soldier on January 15, 2013, 11:50:06 AM
OK, give me one good reason why you'd hide your fighters in a carrier?  Take note, it'll probably take a command point to put them into the carrier, and another to get them out.  Personally, I think it's not worth it.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Gaizokubanou on January 15, 2013, 01:53:55 PM
I did not quite get what the advantage of 0FP fighters would be yet. So...what would the advantage of 0FP fighters be?

firstattak1's original suggestion was allowing carriers to bring in as many fighters as hangar space allotted for 0FP cost.

That means, as an example, if you bring in a venture, that's venture + 4 wings of broadsword for 12FP.  That's some dirt cheap FP cost for really large force (IMO downright overpowered).

Looking at his latest post however, his sentences are not so clear in meaning and now he's talking about bringing out frigates out of carrier (I assume that's spelling error but still WTF?) so who knows what he actually meant...
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: firstattak1 on January 15, 2013, 05:35:48 PM
Yes typo sorry, was on my phone with auto correct on......and im not geat anyway with spelling, let me fix it.


Well I was just confused on why fighters have to have hanger space and an Fp, why have hanger space if they have Fp?

I was thinking is a carrier can only deploy 1 fighter in a period of time, or per flight deck.(time based on what's balanced) and so the only really menacing carrier is the capital ship(which the name escapes me) and this should be a scary ship.

Oh and just of a fix for that issue!! So fighters could have a "early deployment" fp if you want/need to deploy them without a carrier.



Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Xareh on January 20, 2013, 07:11:12 AM
Kool idea unless it's already been mentioned: choice to deploy with the fighters in the cruiser (this could need some tweaking of how fighters work in relation to FP and hangar space to not make 60FP condors) AND to have it so that if you roll with some fighters they can be 'cloaked' internally - think of it like that scene from Battlestar Galactica when the Vipers were hidden in the cargo containers, an unexpected swarm of bombers or fighters.
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Sandremo on February 28, 2013, 09:10:17 AM
Cruisers dont have flight decks like someone said and because they dont it would take an extremely long time to deploy wings compared to a carrier that has a flight deck. You need to take into account the size of the fighters as well. Sure you could fit a ton of the very cheapest fighters in a single carrier but what about the bigger and more advanced ones? From what i'v looked they take double the space the early ones do and understand that fielding a crazy number of fighters on the battle at the same time isnt really effective in my opinion they just get in the bloody way or get them selves killed. What about resources? Resupplying fighter craft currently doesnt cost that much resources (I'm guessing it's because the fighters them selves have an FP cost) But in reality it's expensive stuff. Since in starfarer it's mostly about hit 'n run tactics with fighter and bomber craft that are designed to destroy ships of the frigate class and upwards if the resource cost of resupplying would be increased to counter the 0FP you would find yourself pretty easily stranded or very low on resources since your strike wings eat alot.

Anyway go play any space sim. Any space sim at all that has any sort of ballistic weapons and or missiles. I'm taking freespace 2 here for example. Your fighter wings need to use their missiles to be 100% combat effective and hence end up resupplying a million times over in a mission = lot's of resources spent.

Meh... i'm not even sure what i'm trying to get at myself anymore.

I guess my point was that you need to take into account the size and the resource consumption of fighter craft if this is going to be implemented.

-Sandremo
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Halcyon on June 28, 2013, 12:56:12 AM
i have an Idea:

or:
Spoiler
View Image (http://img839.imageshack.us/edit_preview.php?l=img839/8312/5fxz.png&action=rotate)
(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/8312/5fxz.png)
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Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Flare on June 28, 2013, 01:18:42 AM
There's been an update on the subject:  http://fractalsoftworks.com/2013/06/07/fighter-update/
Title: Re: Deploy fighters from carriers (simple handling)
Post by: Halcyon on June 29, 2013, 06:07:00 AM
Whoops, I just realize that this thread was over 5 months ago...  sorry