Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cosmitz on November 28, 2012, 01:35:47 AM
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I've been playing a lot of Starfarer these past months and i don't know if it's just me, but i find missiles to be near-useless compared to the other types of weapons. I can make a full energy or a full ballistic build, but i can't make a full missile build.
First problem is ammo. Even ballistics have enough ammo storage to engage multiple enemies before you have a problem with it running out. With missiles you mostly get enough for around two-three enemies, if you're conservative and don't make mistakes. And given how the enemies LOVE to raise shields at 95% flux right after you launch your Harpoon making it useless, ammo problems go even further.
Evasion. Given the AI's pro-skills in maneuvering ships, missiles, which can be avoided or atleast easily enough even by players with a tad of skill, end up missing more times than they hit if you want to use them as the actual homing devices that they are and not a ballistics counterpart like the Sabot. Let's not even go into Torpedoes which are plainly disappointing, and thats if you don't even count the 'nick of time' shield-up the AI does.
All around usability. Since i couldn't bare to play with missiles mostly this view comes from someone that faced down a lot of missiles and personally, minus startgame where that stray Harpoon can nick half your ship, i generally don't care at all for the huge amount of missiles flying at any particular time in a battle. Sure, i also play shield ships mostly, but i really should be fearing them more than i do currently. It just seems odd to care more about that one Heavy Blaster mounted on that one ship than a quarter of the whole armament of the enemy fleet. I only love Pilums since they drop like mad and cost 900 credits each if i'm not mistaken, making it sweet salvage, otherwise they just provide the background for the battle for me.
So, can we have a bit of a discussion on this topic, maybe i can be enlightened.
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I use missiles to soften up armor of ships when i have chance and that is when ship is overloading/venting. They are perfect in duels when you are both at almost max flux, then you lunch missiles/torpedo so it will raise shields and overload or you land a hit and then it's bye-bye armor. Missiles and torpedo are extremely powerful and dangerous when used in right moment. It's just that window of opportunity to use m/t are very small but if used successfully you devastate your opponent. So patience ;D
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I don't mind them being specialist weapons, used in specific situations, but then they get pushed to the same rank as ship systems. And the fact that there are ships with mostly missile-weaponslots make me believe that they were designed as an viable alternative to energy/ballistics and not necessarily complementary.
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Well, this game combine many ships it's not 1 on 1. So look at your fleet like ship with kinetic/energy/missile slots and their combination. So you have ships with bunch of kinetic and ships with bunch of missiles. Kinetic eat away shields and then missile blast armor and then kinetic eat away hull. Thing is you can use HE guns to eat armor but you can't destroy it in one go but missiles/torpedo can.
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I couldn't play this game without missiles, to me they are extremely valuable.
Buying up a couple of Vigilances and outfitting them with just Pilums and PD lasers can provide BRILLIANT support in small engagements for a small cost. The fog of Pilums hunting down the enemy gives you a really nice advantage in engaging ships.
I've been playing with an Enforcer outfitted with 2 racks of salamanders and 2 packs of annihilators. The salamanders are a death-knell for all Hounds, and can be excellent shield-distractors against other ships - allowing you to either pound down their unprotected armor as they protect their engines - or take out their engines making them sitting ducks to close in.
Annihilators help you control the field as well, putting out enough ordnance to control how ships move and use their shields.
I can't speak highly enough of Harpoons, either, but you need to be careful about using them as they are wasted if they hit a shield - unless of course they force an overload - and then you can bring the pain with your supplementary ballistics / energy ordnance.
They are all pretty rubbish on their own, granted, but if used within their roles and as part of a wider plan they are AWESOME.
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Hm, interesting premise. Maybe my addiction to play with 360 shields made me unaware of how hard it is for normal ships to manage directional damage. I can understand how the enemy might move their shield when facing missiles and allowing me a period of grace in their defences can come useful.
During a new playthrough i made i also saw the benefit of using missiles for PD distraction when fielding fighters, especially nonshielded ones.
I think my mistake might be to consider them direct damage instead of tools of attrition and distraction.
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I agree you can't make a missile build - but its not at all because missiles are bad. They just have extremely narrow roles - if you don't have the right situation for a missiles, it won't do anything. The ballistic and energy weapons are much more flexible and can deal with any situation. Eg: Harpoons can only be fired at overloaded, venting, or 99% flux opponents (and even that isn't a good idea because of PD), but they then do heavy damage in that narrow window. I think the torpedoes are just right because half of threads talk about how disappointing they are, and the other half how overpowered.
I've been loving swarmers for anti-fighter work. OP cheap, tons of ammo, and a flux free way to just murder fighters. They also do pretty high damage against larger ships once you've stripped the armor.
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To the OP - Missiles are not designed (and as you've posted, can't) destroy a fleet all by themselves. They really can barely kill a ship (except perhaps torps) given an even fight. That is not their strength nor purpose.
However, as others have posted, missiles excel in setting up conditions to destroy a fleet or kill a ship with ease. By forcing an overload (harpoons) or enemy movement into weapon range (salamanders, pilums) they create a large combat edge for a small FP cost.
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Vanilla missiles are kind of lackluster, i admit this.
But try out "More Weapons" and you'll see some good missiles.
My favourites are the "Barricade launcher". PD missiles that target other missiles and *** fighters? Yes please.
Also with mod ships you can set up some OP one trick ponies (8 reapers = either death or overload followed by death).
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imo missiles are the best weapons in the game. They will insta-kill anything with shields down.
Harpoons lose effectiveness against cruisers/capital ships simply because you can't unload enough in a short enough time. Use reapers instead.
If you want to see the power of missiles, try using this Conquest loadout: cyclone reaper launchers in the front, heavy autocannons/hellbore cannons on the side slots, 8xPD lasers, 2x heavy burst lasers, stabilized shields, hardened shields, advanced turret gyros, dedicated targeting core, rest capacitors, missile side slots empty. Set all weapons to autofire except the reapers. Elite crew helps keep flux down.
You can kill any capital ship/cruiser in less than 10 seconds typically with this loadout (exception is the Paragon with its anti-strike weapon fort shield). When you see an enemy capital, engage maneuvering jets, ram them, fire torpedoes at point blank, turn broadside. If they are somehow still standing, stay in your point-blank broadside until the maneuvering jets and reapers recharge, then face them again and launch.
You can do this to kill an Onslaught and take no damage (as long as you can briefly distract any escorts). Vessels of cruiser size and below pose no threat unless you are massively outnumbered (hellbore+HAC+reapers will overload and kill anything in range). Gets old pretty quickly, but is extremely effective.
Personally, I think the Conquest could use a bit of a nerf. It seems a little OP to be able to zip around the map like a frigate and be able to one-shot capitals with your torpedoes.
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I had some succes with harpoons when fighting bombers (pihranas especially).
Just wait till they appear on the scanner and fire a volley of 1 missile per bomber and poof they're gone of badly damaged.
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Just try a Vigilance with expanded missile racks, ECCM, a Pilum, and at least 7 points into the missile skill. You can literally spam them and they will overwhelm almost any destroyer or frigate-sized vessel in the game.
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I think what makes missiles great is not their general reliability, but how they can suddenly and surprisingly throw randomness into the situation.
I was in a standard Vigilance with the basic pulse cannon and Harpoon MRMs and went up against a larger hull whose specific type I can't remember. It unloaded a barrage at me that I managed to dodge or absorb on the shields, and then I returned fire with the pulse cannon. One of my earlier missiles that I had pretty much discounted as a loss came around beside me and impacted on the shields, maxing out the enemy's hard flux, so with a couple of follow-up pulses of my cannon the ship went into overload... at point blank range... with my missile tubes staring it in the face. And ever so slowly, those freshly launched missiles tracked it ever so malevolently as it tried ever so vainly to get away. And then, in the words of David Weber, it ceased to exist.
It was enough of a moment of pride and triumph that I cheered aloud in real life.
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well i like to use torpedoes on Hyperion mainly because it likes to jump behind ships with frontal shields and either fry their engines or makes them panic and die anyway...
also annihilator pods are great on onslaught...you dont even need to use shields with them...
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Paragon with full Annihilators is amazing. You haven't lived till you've seen a group of about 6 dozen missiles hit the enemy. Just put them on auto fire. With so many missiles there is no need to be precise.
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The fact that missiles are flux-free sources of damage means that they can be used to swing very close slugfests in your favor.
They are also great in the early frigate-vs.-frigate battles, and allow small ships to pose a very credible threat to larger ones (nothing like having a Lasher sneak up behind you and put three Harpoons in your engines while you're distracted.!)
Finally, Annihilators might as well be a flux-free ballistic weapon. Tons of area denial, lots of damage potential, loads of ammo, strip armor very well, and overwhelm any PD short of dual flak.
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One thing i love about missiles is that versus fighters save the Xyphos and the wasp wing ( which lets face it is just a group of flying lasers) missiles with tracking are essentially hunter killers a fire and forget especially versus the slower fighters. this can also be really useful in the very early game since a lot of people may start with a Lasher with salamanders or harpoons, both of which have very good tracking ability, then they get in a fight with a hound or two and a bomber group.
When your fighting those hounds you don't need a bomber wing coming up behind you and putting a bunch of bombs up your backside. so you can launch missiles against the bombers and instead of going after you they are now running away from the missiles and you can go kill the hounds.
And one thing i love that absolutely needs to be more exploited by someone in a new weapon is that if you fire a sabot and the fuel on the first stage runs out it sits there and turns into what is essentially a landmine until its timer fades out. we need land mines. space mines. not land mines. space mines. i don't know who else agrees with me on this but... space mines! ( also phasing space mines around outposts? or take a leaf from star trek, phasing self replicating space mines)
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Missiles would work amazing in multiplayer, fit fast frigates with missile launchers or torpedos for flanking manouvers. With the currect AI its nigh impossible to use missiles efficiently, and all the effort made to do dat perfect hit is overshadowed by simply stacking energy or ballistics.
I think the whole rocket/missile/torpedo system should be somewhat reworked/rebalanced. Probably won't happen but i've never used missiles when ballistic/energy are overall better.
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I enjoy missiles but i always mix them with ballistics and energy weapons.
They are a bit of a crutch on their own since they have low DPS and a bit of recycle time they need fast weapons to help them excel.
If i wanted to use Reapers or Harpoons i want to use weapons that do Kinetic damage since they will overpower the shield.
Or if i wanted to use Sabot SRMs then i would have high explosive weapons such as Hellborne Cannons or Assault Chainguns.
Its all about adapting with weaponry and how you build them
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Personally I think they cost too much and are of too limited ammo to be worth justifying OP towards except for annihilators.
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With the level 5 skill perk some of the missiles get muuuuch better. Pilums and single shot (now double) reapers in particular are wtf good.
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I love missiles, and that they are very much weapons of opportunity makes them alot of fun to use, and gives ships alot greater flexibility. And some of the missiles are very easily justified, such as the small Reaper (2 OP 4000 dmg WTF) And the annihilator.
The other one are abit harder to justify, but they are still very useful. The Sabot is brilliant to take down shields. And the harpoon is a great weapon to deal massive damage.
The only missile I cant justify using is the Swarmer...
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I absolutely love the Swarmer! ;D Its very powerful vs fighters (especially when supported with beams/burst pd to strip the (tiny) armor), has tons of ammo, and is low OP. Its a constant pressure weapon against fighters and also larger ships once the armor is down - 300 damage per missiles is nothing to sneeze at. When I'm soloing with a Hammerhead the only missiles I ever use are Reapers or Swarmers.
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The more tactical missiles can play really well into teamwork based fleets, IE i have a Lasher i outfitted with what i call Anti shield which is 5 dual auto cannons which alone can absolutely wreck the shields of all frigates and a few larger ships, but it also comes with 2 sabot racks which in addition to the auto cannons expand its shield killing power immensely but it still can't do a whole lot to armor no? well that's where another ship comes in, ( another Lasher works well) fitted with things that do very little to shields but will shred whats underneath. Say a Lasher with 5 light assault guns and 2 racks of harpoons or 2 reapers. the two ships working together take a little bit of work to coordinate but its worth it early game until you get ships that can do both jobs IE the enforcer. you could also potentially outfit a fast or teleporting ship like the wolf with salamanders and it could rather easily take out engines or disable systems on a ship allowing other ships to catch up or do some damage to the dead in the water ship.
also salamanders play well with ion cannons for overwhelming EMP damage no matter where on the enemy ship they hit, save shields of course.
and if you want the punching power of a reaper but have some extra op around why not get some atropos? they essentially do the same as a reaper, ( 2x2000 dmg = the 4000 of 1 reaper)
and while they do loose some of the reaper's HP they gain tracking which is extremely useful since for firing at a semi moving ship you no longer have to lead or get in really close to hit the target.
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Although I agree with a lot of what has been said so far about missiles as a tactical weapon, the one thing I definitely agree with in regards to the original complaint is that imo pd is sometimes wayyyy too good. Flak is actually rather ridiculous. Even the single version means that any missile hit is one shotted except reapers.
I once saw an onslaught punch through 18 pilums because the flak fires fast enough to equal the travel distance of a pilum trying to close with the ship.
I know its a medium weapon slot being used for pd but even one mounted is basically a get out of missiles ever hitting you unless you are venting or overloaded free card.
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Anyone think that flak should have some sort of chance effect? like 35% to NOT do any damage? or etc. just look at a flak cannon vs a pilum, flak will almost always win until it runs out of ammo. Or you can reverse the idea and make certain missiles only take damage by chance.
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Nothing should ever have a chance to not take any damage, if i hit the thing i hit it. now maybe adding a spread to the shots of the flak akin to that of the heavy autocannon would be a better idea so even the infallible flak can be defeated, of course then isn't flak supposed to be the end all be all of PD?
also if a ship can afford to have more than one dual flak on it you should not be firing missiles at it, unless it's overloaded, venting, or has been emp'd. in my opinion the AI needs to be smarter about the PD its shooting missiles at, i mean no player would just waste missiles against the pd of an onslaught why should the AI?
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I think the flak is fine. When a ship mounts flak, I know to weaken it first or fire out of it's arc. If a ship wants to completely cover itself in flak weapons, it deserves to take no damage from missiles, but its DPS is severely weakened by the use of all those slots for simply defending itself. Adding support ships with Pilums (pila?) to the mix can distract flak enough to let you get through, but honestly, it's not worth the effort. Flak cannons are the be-all and end-all of PD weapons. For my money, I prefer PD lasers, or tac lasers if I've got the small weapons->PD hullmod.
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I don't mind them being specialist weapons, used in specific situations, but then they get pushed to the same rank as ship systems. And the fact that there are ships with mostly missile-weaponslots make me believe that they were designed as an viable alternative to energy/ballistics and not necessarily complementary.
Those ships are not meant to be used on the frontline, they are supposed to fire from way back.
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I find it better if you think of missiles of a supporting weapon rather than a main alternative to the energy/kinetic. In such a role, they work awesomely.
I tend to run more of a fighter based fleet, rather than larger ships. As a result, PD is always an issue. However... Often I find those fighters cause the enemy ship to make a choice... Shield against my weapons fire, or shield against the fighters shooting it in the backside. Same thing works quite well for missiles. Sure, it might block the missiles, meanwhile my energy weapons are tearing a hole on the other side. And vice versa. It also works to have missiles coming at them from multiple angles. If you can get behind that onslaught, and fire a few MRMs while your support missile ship fires a few Pilums into his front, than he has to make a pretty crappy choice of what is going to eat him first.
You can also actually block PD with your shield! Just basically ram them while the pilums follow you in...
Missiles are a VERY situation weapon. Using them correctly is key. Sure that energy cannon does decent damage... But some MRMs at near point blank range on a venting/overloaded target does much, much more.
Also, I find missiles are extremely good for killing freighters and their converted counterparts, (destroyer level) as they generally have no shields/weak shields. A nice dose of MRM makes that mule go down nice and easy with a Frigate.
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And given how the enemies LOVE to raise shields at 95% flux right after you launch your Harpoon making it useless, ammo problems go even further.
This is actually when I precisely love to launch my missiles. If the AI is close to overloading and I launch missiles, then there are two outcomes for it.
It will either:
A: Raise shields, at which I will then pummel their shield with my kinetics if my missile has hit it, or hasn't hit it yet, either way causing the AI to overload, thus giving my HE rounds leisure time to blow out the armor.
B: If they don't raise their shields, they're pretty much screwed because a missile just hit them and blew out a chunk of their armor.
Aside from them shooting the missile down (Good luck with getting a good rate of fire at 95% flux), they're almost always screwed at that point when I shoot my missile. I call the move 'checkmate' for obvious reasons.
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Sabots and Swarmers are murderers.
That is all.
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Love or hate, there is something extremely satisfying about firing a reaper "from the hip" and hitting your target who was otherwise venting at a "I thought this was safe" distance.
The Ram and Fire reaper tactic is fun too.
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I love using missiles and I love the perks that have been added for them in .54a. My one big complaint is that missile launch speed are independent of your ship speed. I've been in situations where I launch slow missiles (mainly talking about annihilators here) from a ship while I rush toward the enemy and have them stay in my ship so long they run out of fuel and hit my own ship. If I'm going fast and launch a missile it should have a faster initial launch speed.
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I love using missiles and I love the perks that have been added for them in .54a. My one big complaint is that missile launch speed are independent of your ship speed. I've been in situations where I launch slow missiles (mainly talking about annihilators here) from a ship while I rush toward the enemy and have them stay in my ship so long they run out of fuel and hit my own ship. If I'm going fast and launch a missile it should have a faster initial launch speed.
This.... with the top level piloting perk an Enforcer goes at around 350 under burn - Annihilators are a lot slower, even with the missile perks speeding them up.
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Okay, so this finally pushed me to doing something I've been thinking of: making all mounts on the Conquest universal. To me, it makes sense. The Conquest is a midline ship, able to handle both energy and ballistic weapons, so why not anywhere? And why not turn into a giant missile rack? That's what I'm going to do, and that's what I'm going to post after I try it. Missiles away!
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Dear lord...
The sheer number of pilums this could fill the battlefield with...
Would be insane.
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Okay, so this finally pushed me to doing something I've been thinking of: making all mounts on the Conquest universal. To me, it makes sense. The Conquest is a midline ship, able to handle both energy and ballistic weapons, so why not anywhere? And why not turn into a giant missile rack? That's what I'm going to do, and that's what I'm going to post after I try it. Missiles away!
dude, you need to post a mod like that with ship all been given universal slots. the fun we could have with that it insane
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It's not exactly a missile, but I love the Proximity Charge Launcher. I have them on my Onslaught and one will take out a whole wing of bombers, or a swarm of missiles.
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Okay, so I put missiles all over the all-universal Conquest, and it was okay. Still not enough missile-y goodness for the OP, in my opinion, and it kept trying to chase after ships to attack them with the PD lasers. However, I also tried a build with heavy blasters and plasma cannons on only one side, and that thing can solo the SDF.
Anyways, my point is, even with a ton of pilums and MIRVs firing all the time, the results were less than spectacular. Versus an Onslaught, even with all missiles firing, only a few reached the target, only to hit the shields and do nothing. Smaller ships just dodged the missiles.
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Mod a Salamander MRM into the game with a burst size of 150, with an ammo capacity of 300.
I call it the "Phoenix"
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Okay, so I put missiles all over the all-universal Conquest, and it was okay. Still not enough missile-y goodness for the OP, in my opinion, and it kept trying to chase after ships to attack them with the PD lasers. However, I also tried a build with heavy blasters and plasma cannons on only one side, and that thing can solo the SDF.
Anyways, my point is, even with a ton of pilums and MIRVs firing all the time, the results were less than spectacular. Versus an Onslaught, even with all missiles firing, only a few reached the target, only to hit the shields and do nothing. Smaller ships just dodged the missiles.
Very good points, but in a support role, such a ship would be devistating. Annihilators?
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Anyone else got a problem with the missile hullmods being in the combat aptitude? I can't really build great missile support carriers with racks and ECCM for my big fleet :(
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I personally hate navigation in technology, but them's the stops i guess. Still, it's not a fleetwide effect, so i think it's rightly put in Combat.
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Anyone else got a problem with the missile hullmods being in the combat aptitude? I can't really build great missile support carriers with racks and ECCM for my big fleet :(
I don't mind that they are in combat - I mind that ECCM is a 7. Even though I love it, I've never used it in any of my games so far... I don't think the last 5 ranks in missiles are at all worth it - no ship has enough missiles to warrant that many points!
If the base effect - the increase in missile speed and turning - was a fleetwide effect (and I think that thematically it should be) the higher ranks would be worth it completely!
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Anyone else got a problem with the missile hullmods being in the combat aptitude? I can't really build great missile support carriers with racks and ECCM for my big fleet :(
I don't mind that they are in combat - I mind that ECCM is a 7. Even though I love it, I've never used it in any of my games so far... I don't think the last 5 ranks in missiles are at all worth it - no ship has enough missiles to warrant that many points!
If the base effect - the increase in missile speed and turning - was a fleetwide effect (and I think that thematically it should be) the higher ranks would be worth it completely!
Mh...I've got the feeling the missile skill was primarily designed with strike missiles/torpedos in mind. For those the +50% dmg at lvl 10 is almost worth it.
But while some missiles are good strike weapons, missiles are also the support weapons in the game (together with beams maybe). I think that fleets that don't actively seek combat benefit most from those missiles. Condors, Mules, Ventures - all missile heavy ships, all ships you might see in trade or mining fleets. And those are fleets of a player character who will likely not level up the combat aptitude. You end up in a situation where many of your ships have (support) missile weapons but you've got no way to increase their performance. So I'm all for fleet wide missile bonuses, but in another aptitude.
Or at least an alternative hullmod should be offered. For example something that is to expanded missile racks like the unstable injector is to the augmented engines. It could expand the capacity but add a trigger delay of ~5 sec, that would make it unsuitable for the likes of Reapers and Harpoons but great for Pillums and Salamanders.