How would the balancing work for ships with fortress shield though? I may be completely missing something important, if I am I apologize. This would add to fortress shields' effect hugely.
How would the balancing work for ships with fortress shield though? I may be completely missing something important, if I am I apologize. This would add to fortress shields' effect hugely.
Good question :) The way the perk works is it allows hard flux dissipation while shields are up, at a percentage of the normal rate. Systems like the fortress shield or the phase cloak (which isn't *really* a system, but it's implemented as one...) turn off hard flux dissipation altogether, and that's not affected by the perk.
Fortress Shield,fortressshield,,,0.025,,,,,,1,35,1,20,,,,,TRUE,,TRUE,TRUE,,graphics/icons/hullsys/fortress_shield.pngpackage data.shipsystems.scripts;
import com.fs.starfarer.api.combat.MutableShipStatsAPI;
import com.fs.starfarer.api.plugins.ShipSystemStatsScript;
public class FortressShieldStats implements ShipSystemStatsScript {
public void apply(MutableShipStatsAPI stats, String id, State state, float effectLevel) {
//stats.getShieldTurnRateMult().modifyMult(id, 1f);
//stats.getShieldUnfoldRateMult().modifyPercent(id, 2000);
stats.getShieldDamageTakenMult().modifyMult(id, 0f);
//stats.getShieldAbsorptionMult().modifyMult(id, 0.2f);
stats.getShieldUpkeepMult().modifyMult(id, 0f);
}
public void unapply(MutableShipStatsAPI stats, String id) {
//stats.getShieldAbsorptionMult().unmodify(id);
//stats.getShieldArcBonus().unmodify(id);
stats.getShieldDamageTakenMult().unmodify(id);
//stats.getShieldTurnRateMult().unmodify(id);
//stats.getShieldUnfoldRateMult().unmodify(id);
stats.getShieldUpkeepMult().unmodify(id);
}
public StatusData getStatusData(int index, State state, float effectLevel) {
if (index == 0) {
return new StatusData("shield absorbs 10x damage", false);
}
return null;
}
}
That may be the intended use, but what tends to happen is that I surround the ship, pile on DPS, ship raises Fortress Shield, gets Overloaded anyway, starts dying.
A lot of dynamics aren't quite as apparent in Vanilla as they are in my mod, where a lot of your opponents are not going to run out of Flux unless you shoot back.
where a lot of your opponents are not going to run out of Flux unless you shoot back
That may be the intended use, but what tends to happen is that I surround the ship, pile on DPS, ship raises Fortress Shield, gets Overloaded anyway, starts dying.
It's not like 1 Paragon is usually duking it out with 1 other capship in actual Campaign play; usually, due to slow speed, it's at the tail end of the drips and drabs, gets deployed late, and if you can take it on at all, you can surround it.
If this is an inappropriate circumstance (the ship is not totally outclassed but is instead gimping itself) then that sounds like a behavior bug to me and could probably use its own thread in the bugs section.Yeah, it's probably an AI miscalculation (not bug, really, just not quite taking advantage of it well) in part; the intended use case is to use it when Hard Flux < 50% of Overload values or thereabout, after that it gets reeeeeal situational, even in Vanilla, so it probably shouldn't bother past that.
Fortress Shield,fortressshield,,,-0.05,,,,,,1,15,1,35,,,,TRUE,TRUE,,TRUE,TRUE,,graphics/icons/hullsys/fortress_shield.pngErm... I have a feeling you may be missing how it actually works. You're aware soft flux can (and does) dissipate while it's up, right? It's anything but marginal, as you can get good mileage of it in just about any even engagement.
It allows you to fire until your flux tops out, then recuperate in the thick of battle while fortress shield is up. Since the Paragon is slow, it's particularly important because it usually can't get away to vent safely. Just that usage of it is a significant amount of extra flux room - regained in safety - never mind spot usage to absorb burst damage.
Odd; I've never been able to get it to work that way - for me, turning fortress shield on for any length of time inevitably results in *more* hard flux than if I'd just stopped firing without the system. Yes, it may result in total flux going down a bit faster - but never by enough to be worth the extra hard flux. It does still have one use: absorbing alpha strikes (torpedos, bomber runs, shots from slow-firing kinetic weapons or sabot SRMs, that sort of thing) where you can flick it on and then off again. But that's all I've found it to be good for.
Personally, I'd prefer a fortress shield that had a very low maintenance cost, but some sort of either cooldown once turned off, or activation cost, or something to make it more of a "turtle" device than a "momentary shield" device.
Odd; I've never been able to get it to work that way - for me, turning fortress shield on for any length of time inevitably results in *more* hard flux than if I'd just stopped firing without the system. Yes, it may result in total flux going down a bit faster - but that's simply not worth the extra hard flux. It does still have one use: absorbing alpha strikes (torpedos, bomber runs, shots from slow-firing kinetic weapons or sabot SRMs, that sort of thing) where you can flick it on and then off again. But that's all I've found it to be good for.Yeah, that's generally been my experience, too.
That may be the intended use, but what tends to happen is that I surround the ship, pile on DPS, ship raises Fortress Shield, gets Overloaded anyway, starts dying.
It's not like 1 Paragon is usually duking it out with 1 other capship in actual Campaign play; usually, due to slow speed, it's at the tail end of the drips and drabs, gets deployed late, and if you can take it on at all, you can surround it.
A lot of dynamics aren't quite as apparent in Vanilla as they are in my mod, where a lot of your opponents are not going to run out of Flux unless you shoot back.
Question: does the ship drop FS and fire when it has only hard flux left, but also has room left in the flux reserve?
Odd; I've never been able to get it to work that way - for me, turning fortress shield on for any length of time inevitably results in *more* hard flux than if I'd just stopped firing without the system. Yes, it may result in total flux going down a bit faster - but never by enough to be worth the extra hard flux. It does still have one use: absorbing alpha strikes (torpedos, bomber runs, shots from slow-firing kinetic weapons or sabot SRMs, that sort of thing) where you can flick it on and then off again. But that's all I've found it to be good for.
Personally, I'd prefer a fortress shield that had a very low maintenance cost, but some sort of either cooldown once turned off, or activation cost, or something to make it more of a "turtle" device than a "momentary shield" device.
Honest question: doesn't this just boil down to "system not useful when in hopeless situation"?I guess it's somewhat in the eye of the beholder :) A really good System should be the difference between "hopeless" and "a smallish chance, if you make good choices".
Wait, are you basing your assessment of the fortress shield based on the balance in your mod?The mod just makes things a lot more acute, because there's no "pause" or "slowdown" when everybody's hitting the soft-flux wall; ships can and do hit the wall, but it's a lot rarer and much more about whether a ship's built around burst DPS via certain weapons vs. continual DPS than in Vanilla.
Yeah, hard flux goes up while soft flux goes down. Soft flux goes down faster, and faster than it does w/ shields up and not firing. If you're under fire, it's definitely worth it - once you factor in the flux from taking extra damage on shields, it ends up taking you *much* longer to dissipate a useful amount of flux, compared to turning the fortress shield on - meaning you end up gaining more hard flux in the process, too.
Fortress Shield,fortressshield,,,-0.03,,,,,,1,,1,5,TRUE,,,TRUE,TRUE,,TRUE,TRUE,,graphics/icons/hullsys/fortress_shield.pngpackage data.shipsystems.scripts;
import com.fs.starfarer.api.combat.MutableShipStatsAPI;
import com.fs.starfarer.api.plugins.ShipSystemStatsScript;
public class FortressShieldStats implements ShipSystemStatsScript {
public void apply(MutableShipStatsAPI stats, String id, State state, float effectLevel) {
//stats.getShieldTurnRateMult().modifyMult(id, 1f);
//stats.getShieldUnfoldRateMult().modifyPercent(id, 2000);
stats.getShieldDamageTakenMult().modifyMult(id, 0.05f);
//stats.getShieldAbsorptionMult().modifyMult(id, 0.2f);
stats.getShieldUpkeepMult().modifyMult(id, 0f);
}
public void unapply(MutableShipStatsAPI stats, String id) {
//stats.getShieldAbsorptionMult().unmodify(id);
//stats.getShieldArcBonus().unmodify(id);
stats.getShieldDamageTakenMult().unmodify(id);
//stats.getShieldTurnRateMult().unmodify(id);
//stats.getShieldUnfoldRateMult().unmodify(id);
stats.getShieldUpkeepMult().unmodify(id);
}
public StatusData getStatusData(int index, State state, float effectLevel) {
if (index == 0) {
return new StatusData("shield absorbs 10x damage", false);
}
return null;
}
}Yeah, hard flux goes up while soft flux goes down. Soft flux goes down faster, and faster than it does w/ shields up and not firing. If you're under fire, it's definitely worth it - once you factor in the flux from taking extra damage on shields, it ends up taking you *much* longer to dissipate a useful amount of flux, compared to turning the fortress shield on - meaning you end up gaining more hard flux in the process, too.
I'll admit, most of my testing comes from playing through "Forlorn Hope", which may be biasing the results some. However, in that context, using the stock Paragon, the results I observed was that trying to dissipate soft flux with fortress shields active was always a mistake - even when you've got fighters and frigates swarming all around you, you're better off just hitting "hold fire" for a bit. Maybe the opposition in that mission just can't generate enough sustained damage output to make fortress shields be worth using for more than burst damage?
...
This appears to be a variant that the AI can use fairly well, probably just needs cooldown tweaks.
...
QuoteHonest question: doesn't this just boil down to "system not useful when in hopeless situation"?I guess it's somewhat in the eye of the beholder :) A really good System should be the difference between "hopeless" and "a smallish chance, if you make good choices".
Nice analysis. I think it underscores that making the system hard flux buildup dependent on the shield upkeep would be a good idea - it'd remove the #1 scenario entirely, so it'd always be either #2 or #3 (as it is now, if you do NOT use Stabilized Shields - but, as you point out, you always should). I'll add this to my list.QuoteHonest question: doesn't this just boil down to "system not useful when in hopeless situation"?I guess it's somewhat in the eye of the beholder :) A really good System should be the difference between "hopeless" and "a smallish chance, if you make good choices".
Well, that just pushes back what "hopeless" is, doesn't it? :) At any rate, I don't think how it performs in the hands of the AI in a specific situation has much impact on whether it's useful for the player. That said, though, I'm not seeing the AI issues you're pointing out, and think it actually does well - maybe some of it is specific to stats being so different in your mod. Well, I'd like to make system AI moddable at some point, so you should get a chance to make it do whatever you want!
And, oh man, have we ever gone off-topic.
If you combine Stabilized Shields with Front Shield Emitter, you get 0 flux/sec upkeep for shields. If Fortress Shield's hard flux buildup rate is dependent on shield upkeep, how might you change things based on that, if at all?
If you combine Stabilized Shields with Front Shield Emitter, you get 0 flux/sec upkeep for shields. If Fortress Shield's hard flux buildup rate is dependent on shield upkeep, how might you change things based on that, if at all?
In the dev build, percentile reductions are multiplicative specifically to avoid this kind of thing - even more potential cases come up with skill-based effects. Percentile increases are still additive.
So, if you have two -50% modifiers, the final result is 25% of the base value.
Also, +50% and -50% don't cancel out - the final result is 75% of the base value, since the percentile reduction is expressed as a multiplier and is applied to the final value after the percentile increase.
I've reduced some penalties to reflect this.
The formula is:
IncreaseMult = (100 + <sum of all percentage increases>) * 0.01
ReductionMult = product of (1 - <percentage reduction> * 0.01) for all percentage reductions
FinalValue = BaseValue * IncreaseMult * ReductionMult
If you combine Stabilized Shields with Front Shield Emitter, you get 0 flux/sec upkeep for shields. If Fortress Shield's hard flux buildup rate is dependent on shield upkeep, how might you change things based on that, if at all?
In the dev build, percentile reductions are multiplicative specifically to avoid this kind of thing - even more potential cases come up with skill-based effects. Percentile increases are still additive.
So, if you have two -50% modifiers, the final result is 25% of the base value.
Also, +50% and -50% don't cancel out - the final result is 75% of the base value, since the percentile reduction is expressed as a multiplier and is applied to the final value after the percentile increase.
I've reduced some penalties to reflect this.
The formula is:
IncreaseMult = (100 + <sum of all percentage increases>) * 0.01
ReductionMult = product of (1 - <percentage reduction> * 0.01) for all percentage reductions
FinalValue = BaseValue * IncreaseMult * ReductionMult
A really good System should be the difference between "hopeless" and "a smallish chance, if you make good choices".
A really good System should be the difference between "hopeless" and "a smallish chance, if you make good choices".
By that logic, are there more than a couple really good systems? Maneuvering Jets and the Phase Teleporter fit the bill, probably Burn Drive and the Skimmer too, but most of the drones don't, the weapon-based systems don't, flares do only very situationally, etc. etc.
I don't see much good in changes that encourage defensive, passive behavior.