Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Announcements => Topic started by: Alex on September 12, 2012, 07:46:06 PM

Title: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 12, 2012, 07:46:06 PM
This version is out - you can download it here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2012/11/23/starfarer-0-54a-release).

Changes as of November 19, 2012

Modding:


Changes as of November 15, 2012

Command UI:

Ship AI:

Campaign:

Modding:

Miscellaneous:

Bugfixing:



Changes as of October 23, 2012

Command UI:

Ship AI:

Music:

Miscellaneous:

Bugfixing:


Changes as of October 13, 2012

Character:

Command UI:

Hullmods:

Miscellaneous:

Modding:

Bugfixing:


Changes as of September 21, 2012

Hullmods:

Character skills:

Miscellaneous:

Modding:

Bugfixing:


Changes as of September 12, 2012

Character skills:

Ship AI:

Fighter AI:

Miscellaneous:

Modding:
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on September 12, 2012, 07:56:53 PM
GREAT!!!

let the hype begin  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on September 12, 2012, 08:04:50 PM
I can't decide which kicks more ass: character skills or fighters not constantly staying in formation.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: FlashFrozen on September 12, 2012, 08:41:59 PM
Energy weapon flak! mmm delicious...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on September 12, 2012, 08:50:31 PM
Quote
Projectile graphics now rendered at correct aspect ratio based on the width of the trail, regardless of its length
So, if a shell bitmap's 8 pixels wide and 24 long, we define the trail at 8 pixels and it'll render correctly, yes, and if we make the width of the trail 16, it'll double the size of the bitmap by making the quad bigger, yes?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: naufrago on September 12, 2012, 08:50:40 PM
I like the changes you have here, but there are still some improvements to the AI I'd like to see.

One thing I'd like to see is for the AI to be somewhat less willing to fire inefficient weapons at high soft flux (prefer firing more efficient weapons until its capacitors can handle firing the more inefficient weapons without risking overload), instead of dropping shields to fire inefficient weapons more (especially when super-efficient shields are its primary defense). If dissipation and shield efficiency are high enough, it's usually smartest to hold fire on things like Plasma Cannons, Tachyon Lances, and the various blasters (maybe even pulse lasers) for a few seconds. The AI on ships with efficient shields just seems too willing to take hits to the hull and armor to keep shooting.

Also, the AI sometimes vents at low flux while well within range of an enemy firing at it (for no apparent reason), causing it drop shields and take potentially huge damage (matchup that comes to mind- Tempest vs. outdated Dominator, Tempest sometimes vents at low flux while directly in front of a hellbore).

Speaking of venting, I think it would be beneficial for venting ships to start accelerating toward enemies a few seconds before it finishes venting. This would let it get back into battle faster while still having plenty of time to raise shields before engaging with the enemy.

I'd also like to see a slight change (fix, even) to how the AI handles beam weapons. It's usually most beneficial to stack all your beam weapons onto one target than to spread them out among many enemies since it drastically increases the likelihood of overwhelming the enemy's dissipation. However, the AI doesn't redirect all of its beam weapons at the enemy it's focusing on unless it happens to target the enemy it's focusing on, which is fairly rarely. Tachyon Lances are even worse about it since they only switch targets if there is something targeted while it's firing, which is very rarely.

One final thing, firing the Tachyon Lance at the shields of anything bigger than a frigate or anything with a shield efficiency greater than .8 is usually a bad idea (basically, if it can't overload its target in a single volley, it's not worth firing at that time). I'd rather the AI prefer firing at its target when its shields are down rather than wasting its extremely inefficient damage to generate soft flux. So target priority for me would be 1) primary target when its shields are down, 2) fighters, 3) other targets when their shields are down/non-existant/pointed elsewhere.

And keep up the good work, I'm really looking forward to what the next patch will bring. =)

EDIT: Just remembered an issue specific to the Odyssey. When the Odyssey is charging at an enemy (to take advantage of an opening, like when the enemy is venting), it doesn't seem to take into account the firing arcs of its weapons and just flies directly at its target. Not sure if it's a bug or if it's taking other things into consideration. Can probably provide a matchup if you'd like.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hardlyjoking67 on September 12, 2012, 09:03:31 PM
My reaction.

1. See topic and get super excited.
2. See the "this version is not out yet" sign
3. Skim comments
4. Cry quietly.  :'(
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tarran on September 12, 2012, 09:19:33 PM
  • Varying degrees of independence (bombers - none ("stay on target!"), interceptors - lots)
  • Will target and individually avoid incoming missiles
Does that mean less fighters flying into a wave of bombs from Piranhas?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Brainbread on September 12, 2012, 09:26:05 PM
I'm excited about the Fighter changes. They've been feeling pretty fragile to me (especially Thunders, which are way too easy to lose, despite their speed), and the improved flanking behaviour should help make better use of their Ion Cannons.

Secondly, I'm happy to see the HAC and Mauler change. Extended fights very limited HAC's usefulness (especially since they have such a high rate of fire), with the Mauler having near limitless ammo with their ROF. I'm glad you took my suggested change!


For the bomber AI, will they at least try avoiding missiles and stuff when they are not preparing for the run? Like, when they are flying back to refit? Because they're very easy to kill then.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Kommodore Krieg on September 12, 2012, 09:46:29 PM
The HAC change is so welcome, I could never use them without using extended mags.  Heavy Mauler change is good too. 
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on September 13, 2012, 12:00:27 AM
Woots!

Is all the skill and stuff getting its own GUI? Will David make a bunch more of those lil' icons for each skill and all that jazz? Having it look slick and artsy is always a plus!

Would you say you've done a lot of the harder skill system work now? Like you've laid down the framework and now you'll have a much easier time of adding, arranging and editing new skills into the game? Really wanting to be able to enjoy another layer of customization and content so I'm pretty stoked that this is gonna be getting the spotlight for a time. ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on September 13, 2012, 12:06:35 AM
HALY SHEET YES
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: XpanD on September 13, 2012, 12:19:22 AM
Very nice changes so far! I'm seeing quite a few here that would really help with my planned mod (improved wing logic, better hardpoint accuracy, Fortress Shield AI tweaks), so... I can't wait. Glad to see auto-assign on weapon groups being fixed too! :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: WarStalkeR on September 13, 2012, 01:29:45 AM
Nice, changes!

Alex, what about giving HP to heavy projectiles and adding pierceSet to them in order to make railgun type weapons in 0.54?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Okim on September 13, 2012, 01:58:30 AM
Quote
# "BALLISTIC_AS_BEAM" projectiles can now have a "PROXIMITY_FUSE" behavior
# Projectile graphics now rendered at correct aspect ratio based on the width of the trail, regardless of its length

Thanks!

Its a pity that multiple sprites per hull didn`t get in it, but i`ll wait for it patiently ;)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on September 13, 2012, 02:52:48 AM
Alex, this is all really great, but could you please, please change "Ordnance Expert" to "Ordnance Expertise" ? It kills me to have one skill fall out of (grammatical) alignment :'(

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on September 13, 2012, 03:31:10 AM
Alex, this is all really great, but could please, please change "Ordnance Expert" to "Ordnance Expertise" ? It kills me to have one skill fall out of (grammatical) alignment :'(
ah so the G in your avatar doesnt mean Gothars but Grammar nazi? ;D just kidding ive noticed that one too

cant wait for this patch especially because friendly ships wont teleport into your own anymore....
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on September 13, 2012, 04:56:35 AM
Will the enemy fleets also be using the skills and perks? If not, that would be a sizable advantage to the player.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Nori on September 13, 2012, 06:37:59 AM
Forgive me if this was answered elsewhere.

I read your blog post about the skills a few days ago and it totally sounds awesome. But I just noticed in these dev patch notes that you said "No more synergies". Was the idea of synergies between skills taken out for some reason? Can you give any further info on that? I thought it sounded kind of cool, but either way I'm sure it'll work great.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on September 13, 2012, 06:52:20 AM
I read your blog post about the skills a few days ago and it totally sounds awesome. But I just noticed in these dev patch notes that you said "No more synergies". Was the idea of synergies between skills taken out for some reason? Can you give any further info on that? I thought it sounded kind of cool, but either way I'm sure it'll work great.


I got about halfway into a very initial implementation of the skills - enough to see how it would look/play out and synergies just weren't working out. Hard to keep track of - even with some UI help - and felt, well, a bit too much like Excel.

Also difficult to expand/build out - some skills synergize nicely, concept wise, but others do not. Coming up with sensible bonuses Skill A gives to Skill B (and different bonuses that go from B to A!) is in some cases very difficult. Adding an entirely new skill into the mix would be troublesome.

There are some other things to flesh out skills instead of synergies, though - stuff I'm actually more excited about. It's cleaner, simpler, but also (I think) more interesting, because of how it shakes up the curve of when you get bonuses.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Okim on September 13, 2012, 06:57:32 AM
First time i read about synergies my though was: 'oh man, that`s going to be too complex'. Then i read about synergy chains and just imagined how difficult it would be to plan ahead what your char is going to be with all those interlinks.

A simple aptitudes and skills tree with soft cap and some additional skills that branch off from the main ones is a much better system. While i like complexity and usually criticise modern games that run towards casualness - SF is going to be deep, complex and enjoyable on itself without synergies.

That`s my IMHO.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Trylobot on September 13, 2012, 07:10:32 AM
I'm honestly just glad I won't have to use the word Synergies after this moment
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 13, 2012, 08:11:13 AM
Quote
Projectile graphics now rendered at correct aspect ratio based on the width of the trail, regardless of its length
So, if a shell bitmap's 8 pixels wide and 24 long, we define the trail at 8 pixels and it'll render correctly, yes, and if we make the width of the trail 16, it'll double the size of the bitmap by making the quad bigger, yes?

Yep, barring any bugs.

@naufrago: Some of this is actually improved (in particular, re: high tech lowering shields too aggressively), but I don't think I wrote the changes down. I'm aware of these general issues - I'll probably take a look at one point or another, but at this point, it just makes more sense to spend time on campaign features, unless a particular AI behavior is a serious problem. It's never going to be perfect, there'll always be incremental improvements to make. I still want to hear about it when it does something undesirable, though :)


  • Varying degrees of independence (bombers - none ("stay on target!"), interceptors - lots)
  • Will target and individually avoid incoming missiles
Does that mean less fighters flying into a wave of bombs from Piranhas?

There'll be a lot less of it, and they won't be quite so oblivious about it.

Alex, what about giving HP to heavy projectiles and adding pierceSet to them in order to make railgun type weapons in 0.54?

Yeah, I remember from last time we talked about it. And from that time it came up in the suggestions section :) It's not high on the priority list, but if I get some time, this may be one of the things I'll look at. There are lots of nice-to-haves, though.

Alex, this is all really great, but could you please, please change "Ordnance Expert" to "Ordnance Expertise" ? It kills me to have one skill fall out of (grammatical) alignment :'(

Erm, "Gunnery Implants" and "Computer Systems" aren't aligned either. I'll give the naming a bit more thought, though.

Will the enemy fleets also be using the skills and perks? If not, that would be a sizable advantage to the player.

Eventually, yes. For the next release, probably no. The way it's coded is specifically designed so that it can apply to any fleet/ship, though, not just the player's.

First time i read about synergies my though was: 'oh man, that`s going to be too complex'. Then i read about synergy chains and just imagined how difficult it would be to plan ahead what your char is going to be with all those interlinks.

A simple aptitudes and skills tree with soft cap and some additional skills that branch off from the main ones is a much better system. While i like complexity and usually criticise modern games that run towards casualness - SF is going to be deep, complex and enjoyable on itself without synergies.

Yeah, it was just too involved. I'm not crazy about skill trees, though. They end up forcing a bunch of picks on the player... I'm sure you could get them "right" but it seems difficult.

I'm honestly just glad I won't have to use the word Synergies after this moment

New mechanic: "core competencies".

(Just in case it's not abundantly clear to everyone: I'm joking.)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on September 13, 2012, 08:32:27 AM
So how much did the flak cannon get indirectly nerfed due to the new fighter AI? Does it still work fairly well, or is it no longer instant Talon death? Any chance we could get a quick clip of the new fighters in action if this patch is going to be in development for a while?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on September 13, 2012, 08:37:28 AM
Alex, this is all really great, but could you please, please change "Ordnance Expert" to "Ordnance Expertise" ? It kills me to have one skill fall out of (grammatical) alignment :'(

Erm, "Gunnery Implants" and "Computer Systems" aren't aligned either. I'll give the naming a bit more thought, though.


Yeah, sorry that I'm a *** about that unimportant stuff, just bugs me a bit. If you put "skilled with" in front of the skill, that works (more or less) with every skill and perk (including Implants and Systems) except "Ordnance Expert".  I'm no native speaker anyway, so maybe it's all rubbish :D


Spoiler
  • skilled with Ordnance Expert (perks:skilled with Secured Magazines,skilled with Optimized Assembly)
  • skilled with Damage Control (perks: skilled with Compartmentalization, skilled with Rapid Response Teams)
  • skilled with Target Analysis (perks: skilled with Precision Fire, skilled with Active Frequency Detection)
  • skilled with Evasive Action (perks: skilled with Evasion, skilled with Deflection)
  • skilled with Helmsmanship (perks: skilled with Maximum Power, skilled with Dynamic Stabilization)
  • skilled with Gunnery Implants (perks: skilled with Neural Diagnostics, skilled with Weapon Proprioception)
  • skilled with Mechanical Engineering (perks: skilled with Effective Maintenance)
  • skilled with Computer Systems
[close]
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 13, 2012, 09:17:30 AM
Oops, missed this earlier:

Is all the skill and stuff getting its own GUI? Will David make a bunch more of those lil' icons for each skill and all that jazz? Having it look slick and artsy is always a plus!

That's the plan.

Would you say you've done a lot of the harder skill system work now? Like you've laid down the framework and now you'll have a much easier time of adding, arranging and editing new skills into the game? Really wanting to be able to enjoy another layer of customization and content so I'm pretty stoked that this is gonna be getting the spotlight for a time. ;D

Yes, mostly - but then the adding/editing/arranging/balancing/etc is the more time-consuming part.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on September 13, 2012, 10:12:43 AM

Yeah, sorry that I'm a *** about that unimportant stuff, just bugs me a bit. If you put "skilled with" in front of the skill, that works (more or less) with every skill and perk (including Implants and Systems) except "Ordnance Expert".  I'm no native speaker anyway, so maybe it's all rubbish :D


Spoiler
  • skilled with Ordnance Expert (perks:skilled with Secured Magazines,skilled with Optimized Assembly)
  • skilled with Damage Control (perks: skilled with Compartmentalization, skilled with Rapid Response Teams)
  • skilled with Target Analysis (perks: skilled with Precision Fire, skilled with Active Frequency Detection)
  • skilled with Evasive Action (perks: skilled with Evasion, skilled with Deflection)
  • skilled with Helmsmanship (perks: skilled with Maximum Power, skilled with Dynamic Stabilization)
  • skilled with Gunnery Implants (perks: skilled with Neural Diagnostics, skilled with Weapon Proprioception)
  • skilled with Mechanical Engineering (perks: skilled with Effective Maintenance)
  • skilled with Computer Systems
[close]

uh i dont think that would work because he would be skilled in/at helmsmanship for example

sadly it will probably be harder than that
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gaizokubanou on September 13, 2012, 11:30:43 AM
Totally awesome!  With Faster Than Light coming out tomorrow, I should last long enough for this awesomeness to arrive.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on September 13, 2012, 11:48:29 AM
Haha, yeah. I can't wait for this patch, though. Starfarer just keeps getting better and better.  :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sendrien on September 13, 2012, 12:25:31 PM
The list of changes and improvements look great already!

Alex, if these are not too hard to implement, would you consider three small additional changes to 0.54a?

- A "75%" player ship damage option
- Slightly decrease the flux consumption on the Plasma Cannon, otherwise it is really not even on par with the Autopulse
- Increase the ammo capacity of the Gauss Cannon (50 ammo means you can run out 25% through a long fight - it's a good weapon, but the low ammo is too punishing)

Thanks :)

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gaizokubanou on September 13, 2012, 12:40:56 PM
- A "75%" player ship damage option

What if it was a scale?  That would be much cleaner on UI with lot more options.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ghoti on September 13, 2012, 12:47:37 PM
Well I am waiting with baited breath for this release good sir!
- Slightly decrease the flux consumption on the Plasma Cannon, otherwise it is really not even on par with the Autopulse
Do I need to make a thread explaining how energy weapons work, why they work, and why high flux/damage ratios isn't a damning trait?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on September 13, 2012, 01:11:10 PM
Guess I came a little late to the party. :)
Patchnotes!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sendrien on September 13, 2012, 01:18:15 PM
Well I am waiting with baited breath for this release good sir!
- Slightly decrease the flux consumption on the Plasma Cannon, otherwise it is really not even on par with the Autopulse
Do I need to make a thread explaining how energy weapons work, why they work, and why high flux/damage ratios isn't a damning trait?

Ghoti, I am also aware of the way energy weapons get increased damage from maintaining high flux levels. The problem with the Plasma Cannon is the the flux consumption per barrage is so high that even the Paragon can't link fire 2, let alone 4 Plasma cannons once it's reached a certain flux level. So there's no point in having 35% more energy damage when you can't shoot your guns :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 13, 2012, 01:38:12 PM
FWIW, my feeling is that the Plasma Cannon is borderline too good, even considering the OP cost. The flux consumption is high, but it absolutely wrecks anything it hits. Doesn't even compare with the Autopulse - which is decent enough now, but not in the same league damage-wise. Having more OP to play around with due to skills is only going to make the PC better.

Edit: although, this is based on using it prior to the bug fix with the flux damage multiplier. I'll take another look and see how it feels.

Edit #2: An Apogee with one still mauls a pair of Enforcers, even with a terrible loadout otherwise and with me playing extremely badly. Doesn't feel that much different than before.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ghoti on September 13, 2012, 02:00:45 PM
The amount of instant damage you can do with a sunder with high flux and high energy focus is just silly. Almost one shots an enforcers hull.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on September 13, 2012, 02:38:11 PM
I must admit that I have a newfound love for the Plasma Cannon.

I put one on the Odyssey and with ITU hull mod and High Energy Focus I was just decimating everything. When flux was an issue I just turned sides and 2x Autopulse unloaded for more yummy damage.

Its very flux heavy but a SINGLE Plasma Cannon can solo entire ships all by itself - if you've got enough flux dissipation it can fire nonstop and you'll never build-up any flux and yet no enemy can keep their shields up for long under a maximum fire rate Plasma Cannon.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on September 13, 2012, 02:43:13 PM

uh i dont think that would work because he would be skilled in/at helmsmanship for example

sadly it will probably be harder than that

I'm not sure, but if you google for example "skilled with craftsmanship" you get lots of results. So I think it might be uncommon, but possible. But hell, whatever, I will get over it either way.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on September 13, 2012, 02:46:33 PM
FWIW, my feeling is that the Plasma Cannon is borderline too good, even considering the OP cost. The flux consumption is high, but it absolutely wrecks anything it hits. Doesn't even compare with the Autopulse - which is decent enough now, but not in the same league damage-wise. Having more OP to play around with due to skills is only going to make the PC better.

Edit: although, this is based on using it prior to the bug fix with the flux damage multiplier. I'll take another look and see how it feels.

Edit #2: An Apogee with one still mauls a pair of Enforcers, even with a terrible loadout otherwise and with me playing extremely badly. Doesn't feel that much different than before.


But I like my 'Iron Fist' Apogee.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on September 13, 2012, 03:13:35 PM
If you're going to nerf the Plasma Cannon I hope you do so via OP so as to preserve its niche as the ultimate burst damage weapon (aside from torps and stuff that is).
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Trylobot on September 13, 2012, 03:16:19 PM
Alex stop being so attentive and receptive to your community and go back to your dimly-lit hacker den.  :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on September 13, 2012, 03:23:20 PM
I have to agree that plasma cannons are great weapons - a dual plasma Odyssey can destroy an Enforcer in one broadside. I think they are not overpowered though - I have to really specialize the Odyssey build to pull off dual plasma. :P

On topic:

I'm very excited about the fighter AI updates - could be just the boost they need to bring them back up to par with post-system ships. Its cool to see how even minor updates to fighters drastically changes their power.

I like having perks at 5 and 10. It makes the choice of having a half filled or fully filled skill much more meaningful than just a linearly increasing percentage - mixed builds are more interesting.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Brainbread on September 13, 2012, 03:49:14 PM
FWIW, my feeling is that the Plasma Cannon is borderline too good, even considering the OP cost. The flux consumption is high, but it absolutely wrecks anything it hits. Doesn't even compare with the Autopulse - which is decent enough now, but not in the same league damage-wise. Having more OP to play around with due to skills is only going to make the PC better.

Edit: although, this is based on using it prior to the bug fix with the flux damage multiplier. I'll take another look and see how it feels.

Edit #2: An Apogee with one still mauls a pair of Enforcers, even with a terrible loadout otherwise and with me playing extremely badly. Doesn't feel that much different than before.

And this is why I think AI Apogee's need their base loadout to have a Plasma Cannon. Because as it stands now, an Apogee in the AI fleets is more of an annoyance than a threat (the MIRV can kill a frigate if you're not prepared, but other than that its fairly harmless). With a Plasma Cannon in its base loadout, its damn scary.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ghoti on September 13, 2012, 03:49:34 PM
lol Thaago. Here's 5 eggs. How many chickens do you have?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sendrien on September 13, 2012, 03:58:34 PM
- A "75%" player ship damage option

What if it was a scale?  That would be much cleaner on UI with lot more options.

This is a fantastic idea! But if Alex does a scale, I would put forth that the upper limit of that scale be 200% :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ghoti on September 13, 2012, 04:29:53 PM
I have to agree that plasma cannons are great weapons - a dual plasma Odyssey can destroy an Enforcer in one broadside. I think they are not overpowered though - I have to really specialize the Odyssey build to pull off dual plasma. :P
Oh MAN I'm having alot of fun with this load out!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on September 13, 2012, 04:40:26 PM
I have to agree that plasma cannons are great weapons - a dual plasma Odyssey can destroy an Enforcer in one broadside. I think they are not overpowered though - I have to really specialize the Odyssey build to pull off dual plasma. :P
Oh MAN I'm having alot of fun with this load out!

Right? I like to laugh maniacally while unleashing waves of death.  ;D

OT:
Quote
MutableStat getZeroFluxMinimumFluxLevel()

I'm totally modding the nav buoy to give a boost to this!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: naufrago on September 13, 2012, 05:20:56 PM
I have to agree that plasma cannons are great weapons - a dual plasma Odyssey can destroy an Enforcer in one broadside. I think they are not overpowered though - I have to really specialize the Odyssey build to pull off dual plasma. :P

Hah, I was going to post almost the exact same thing. Plasma Cannons are perfectly fine the way they are. You can choose to go with autopulses for efficiency or plasma cannons for dps+burst damage if you have the dissipation and OP to spare. From my experience, it seems balanced.

Some of my strongest designs for ships make use of plasma cannons, but the AI doesn't handle them terribly well so I only use them on one ship- the Odyssey (it basically has ONLY plasma cannons and some Burst PD).
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hopelessnoob on September 13, 2012, 06:27:00 PM
Why don't you say what the skills do :(
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on September 13, 2012, 06:35:04 PM
They're not set in contret yet.  Something could go "horribly wrong" ~ Alex, and it'd have to be taken out.  Anyways, more for suspense. :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on September 14, 2012, 12:16:42 AM
I'm not sure, but if you google for example "skilled with craftsmanship" you get lots of results. So I think it might be uncommon, but possible. But hell, whatever, I will get over it either way.
good / bad / excellent / brilliant / hopeless (16) AT (doing) something:
I'm not very good at repairing things.
full version:
http://www.english-4u.de/adj_prep.html (http://www.english-4u.de/adj_prep.html)

as these are usually some kind of action you would probably use AT  ;) sorry it was the only link i found but you should be able to find this in any good grammar book....sorry for the OT.....as an english teacher i sometimes cant help myself...

Plasma cannon is really interesting weapon but in the current version they dont seem all that great....after the patch that surely could change but im afraid they might end up being dead weight like the Tach Lance.....anyone here using Tach Lance?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xanderh on September 14, 2012, 02:20:01 AM
Looks cool as usual. I'm looking forward to trying this out, I haven't been disappointed by a feature so far, and it doesn't look like I will in the near future :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: mendonca on September 14, 2012, 02:28:27 AM

... But if Alex does a scale, I would put forth that the upper limit of that scale be 200% :D

I shudder at the thought. I've only just got over the shock of going to '100%' ...  :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thana on September 14, 2012, 03:24:17 AM
Looks cool as usual. I'm looking forward to trying this out, I haven't been disappointed by a feature so far, and it doesn't look like I will in the near future :)

Alex has gotten into the rather bad dual habits of a) not disappointing his fans and b) making other devs look bad by comparison.  ;)

This is, of course, a very bad thing of him to do, raising our expectations of video game quality so.  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: harrumph on September 14, 2012, 04:21:15 AM
Plasma cannon is really interesting weapon but in the current version they dont seem all that great....after the patch that surely could change but im afraid they might end up being dead weight like the Tach Lance.....anyone here using Tach Lance?

You have much to learn, grasshopper.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Blips on September 14, 2012, 09:13:16 AM
Apparently I missed all this talk about synergies. Where can I go and read up on the original concept?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ghoti on September 14, 2012, 09:14:08 AM
blag (http://fractalsoftworks.com/blog/)
blag post (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2012/09/08/character-design/)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: naufrago on September 14, 2012, 09:51:11 AM
Plasma cannon is really interesting weapon but in the current version they dont seem all that great....after the patch that surely could change but im afraid they might end up being dead weight like the Tach Lance.....anyone here using Tach Lance?

Both my Paragons have Tachyon Lances in the large turret slots. They can already take on any other capital ship, so throwing on the Tachyon Lances gives them some ability as fire support. Since it takes so long for a Paragon to get into battle, this lets them be useful sooner. They're also really good at taking out fighters (and Hounds) and can cripple a frigate or destroyer if it manages to catch one with its shields facing the wrong way. They also pretty much hard-counter phase ships, though the HIL has it beaten in that regard. Tachyon Lances are also really good at disabling all the weapons on enemy capital ships, which can drastically reduce incoming damage.

The Tachyon Lance may have high flux requirements and it's damage/flux ratio is, I believe, the worst in the game, but it provides such good utility to a fleet that it's still worthwhile. I'm thinking of stacking a fleet with Lances, since I haven't actually tried that strategy since the nerf. I think it could still be effective, but I need to do some Science on it to be sure.

There are designs for the Paragon without Tachyon Lances that are better at fighting other capital ships, but they drastically limit their usefulness against anything smaller than a cruiser- it takes forever for a Paragon to get into battle. Besides, a Paragon can already beat any other capital ship; giving it a Tachyon Lance doesn't make noticeably worse 1v1 and gives it some uses aside from winning a slugfest.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 14, 2012, 11:04:51 AM
Why don't you say what the skills do :(

Why, to fuel rampant speculation, of course.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on September 14, 2012, 11:10:49 AM
The BEST kind of speculation.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on September 14, 2012, 11:25:35 AM
Why don't you say what the skills do :(

Why, to fuel rampant speculation, of course.

Well then in this spirit:

Quote
Evasive Action (perks: Evasion, Deflection)

The evasion perk will cause a certain % of projectiles to pass through the user - if the user is surrounded the ships on either side will be shooting each other!

The deflection perk will cause a certain % of projectiles to bounce off the hull at semi-random angles determined by the bounding polygon.

Hows that for rampant? :P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on September 14, 2012, 11:45:29 AM
I just hope they won't be too powerful, a Lasher shouldn't be able to beat a hyperion afterall.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 14, 2012, 11:47:34 AM
Hows that for rampant? :P

I give it a 9/10. For rampantness, not accuracy. (Fun fact: rampantness isn't actually a word, and the spellchecker suggests "temperateness" instead. Silly spellchecker.)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on September 14, 2012, 11:50:07 AM
I just hope they won't be too powerful, a Lasher shouldn't be able to beat a hyperion afterall.
I accept that challenge, haha.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: FalseDead on September 14, 2012, 11:31:43 PM
Why don't you say what the skills do :(

Why, to fuel rampant speculation, of course.

Well then in this spirit:

Quote
Evasive Action (perks: Evasion, Deflection)

The evasion perk will cause a certain % of projectiles to pass through the user - if the user is surrounded the ships on either side will be shooting each other!

The deflection perk will cause a certain % of projectiles to bounce off the hull at semi-random angles determined by the bounding polygon.

Hows that for rampant? :P
Skill: Trap Evasion

It's a Trap!

+1 Points in stating the obvious

-100 points in avoiding traps

+100 point's becoming a meme....

 :o ;D

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on September 15, 2012, 02:35:51 PM
I just hope they won't be too powerful, a Lasher shouldn't be able to beat a hyperion afterall.
well under the right conditons why not? i mean even the most powerful ship or fighter is rather useless if the guy on the captains chair is completely dumb....add to that a crew that has no idea what its doing and voila....recipe for disaster ::)

just an example from history: the battle of leyte gulf....bunch of DDs and DEs with few escort carriers drove of heavy strike fleet simply because the japs had made too many mistakes and didnt have will to press on the attack....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWxcLabPfik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWxcLabPfik)

having a good hardware is great but having the same hardware or even bit worse hardware BUT much better training will produce much better results
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on September 15, 2012, 02:53:51 PM
I just hope they won't be too powerful, a Lasher shouldn't be able to beat a hyperion afterall.
well under the right conditons why not? i mean even the most powerful ship or fighter is rather useless if the guy on the captains chair is completely dumb....add to that a crew that has no idea what its doing and voila....recipe for disaster ::)

just an example from history: the battle of leyte gulf....bunch of DDs and DEs with few escort carriers drove of heavy strike fleet simply because the japs had made too many mistakes and didnt have will to press on the attack....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWxcLabPfik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWxcLabPfik)

having a good hardware is great but having the same hardware or even bit worse hardware BUT much better training will produce much better results

Give a rad gaming rig to your grandma and she'l use it to read the online paper :)

OT: Skills finally! Yay!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tarran on September 15, 2012, 08:19:02 PM
Why, to fuel rampant speculation, of course.

Okay then, so, a couple guesses from me:

Spoiler
Quote
Optimized Assembly
Less OP for weapons.

Quote
Compartmentalization
Less hull damage.

Quote
Rapid Response Teams
Faster system repairs.

Quote
Precision Fire
Less spread for weapons/less recoil, or more damage dealt by weapons.

Quote
Active Frequency Detection
Tell enemy moves/orders/targets.

Quote
Deflection
Less armor damage from ballistics/everything.

Quote
Weapon Proprioception
Faster turrets, or less spread for weapons/less recoil.

Quote
Effective Maintenance
Less supplies needed per day.
[close]
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on September 16, 2012, 02:16:22 AM
Compartmentalization: Provides a limiter to how much damage can be caused to one part of the hull.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 16, 2012, 08:46:58 AM
@Tarran: 1/10. Not rampant at all, and surprisingly accurate.

Btw: Damage Control's perks are now "Triage" and "Emergency Repairs".
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Erick Doe on September 16, 2012, 09:05:34 AM
I'm very excited about the introduction of skills. Can't wait.  :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: harrumph on September 16, 2012, 09:43:30 AM
@Tarran: 1/10. Not rampant at all, and surprisingly accurate.

Btw: Damage Control's perks are now "Triage" and "Emergency Repairs".

Cool. I'm gonna guess that "Triage" makes veteran and elite crew more likely to survive hull damage?

Also, for the sake of rampancy, I speculate that "Weapon Proprioception" will involve turrets leading fast targets better sprouting giant octopus-like tentacles that reach out and snatch fighters as they fly by, then crush them against the ship's hull.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: naufrago on September 16, 2012, 09:49:21 AM
Don't suppose there's a skill that increases your weapons' range? Perhaps one that improves your flux dissipation or the reduces the flux cost of energy weapons? Maybe one that improves the efficiency of shields?

I'm going to be so OP if there are. =3
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on September 16, 2012, 09:54:45 AM
Right now, you can go in to a fight knowing pretty much everything they are going to throw out you, since it tells you what hull types and variants they have before you go in to battle. In the future, when the enemy admirals get to use skills as well, they could have some pretty nasty surprises in store.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on September 16, 2012, 04:23:54 PM
Wait, can enemy admirals even get skills?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Uomoz on September 16, 2012, 04:33:23 PM
Damn you Russian! Release the beast already!  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on September 16, 2012, 04:55:50 PM
Wait, can enemy admirals even get skills?
Yes, "eventually".

Will the enemy fleets also be using the skills and perks? If not, that would be a sizable advantage to the player.

Eventually, yes. For the next release, probably no. The way it's coded is specifically designed so that it can apply to any fleet/ship, though, not just the player's.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on September 16, 2012, 06:17:12 PM
Ah, makes the game ever so more challenging. :)

Damn you Russian! Release the beast already!  ;D

>:D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on September 16, 2012, 10:41:03 PM
id say ordinary fleets should get just minimal or next to no skills....
but some elite fleets could be rather good as to be a challenge to the player...
it could also differ between factions...for example typical skill level of Hegemony admiral would range from say 1-4 while typical TT admiral would have 3-6
it would of course depend on the difference the levels make
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Nanostrike on September 17, 2012, 02:04:40 AM
I'd like to see a "Formation Toggle" option for the fighters that can switch them between staying in a focused formation and splitting off to dogfight and whatnot.  Make it not take any CPs, so you could change their formations at will.  Because there are quite a few times I'd like fighters to stay in a formation to focus fire on a larger target...and quite a few times I'd like to see them scatter WAY before they get near a flak-packing capital ship.

But even if that doesn't happen, will the fighters at least try to stay in formation when they're not fighting (IE: Just travelling across the map)?  I really like seeing tons of fighters stream across the map in perfect formations.  I'm fine with them scattering to dogfight when they reach their targets, but seeing them in formation when they're on an attack approach is too cool to take out of the game.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ghoti on September 17, 2012, 07:41:05 AM
Well. If Alex is to be believed in his interview. His views regarding such minutia come down to "The more power you have, the less control." So the fighter thing wouldn't make sense. It would stick out like a sore thumb in this game.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 17, 2012, 08:16:12 AM
I'd like to see a "Formation Toggle" option for the fighters that can switch them between staying in a focused formation and splitting off to dogfight and whatnot.  Make it not take any CPs, so you could change their formations at will.  Because there are quite a few times I'd like fighters to stay in a formation to focus fire on a larger target...and quite a few times I'd like to see them scatter WAY before they get near a flak-packing capital ship.

But even if that doesn't happen, will the fighters at least try to stay in formation when they're not fighting (IE: Just travelling across the map)?  I really like seeing tons of fighters stream across the map in perfect formations.  I'm fine with them scattering to dogfight when they reach their targets, but seeing them in formation when they're on an attack approach is too cool to take out of the game.

You've got nothing to worry about, I think :) While they split up, they still try to attack the same target - where practicable - and they still keep formation while traveling.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on September 18, 2012, 05:47:33 AM
Yay!  Finally, some true fighter physics, so to say. :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 21, 2012, 02:35:40 PM
Updated. Already changing perks around as we speak, though (not the overall structure, just perk specifics).
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: naufrago on September 21, 2012, 02:39:43 PM
You accidentally put the September 21st changes twice, but other than that looks good. =) Especially like the reduced FP cost for the Doom, although I would have rather it become more powerful instead.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on September 21, 2012, 02:41:00 PM
Aw yeah! Seems like stuff is pretty nailed down now, release soon?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 21, 2012, 02:45:27 PM
You accidentally put the September 21st changes twice, but other than that looks good. =) Especially like the reduced FP cost for the Doom, although I would have rather it become more powerful instead.

Thanks, fixed.

Well, it's both - don't underestimate the impact of being able to dissipate soft flux while phased.

Aw yeah! Seems like stuff is pretty nailed down now, release soon?

Not quite :) These are initial skill implementations - now I get to spend lots of time tweaking things until they feel right. There are also a few other things I want to get into this release. Or, at least, am seriously considering.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on September 21, 2012, 02:47:10 PM
Great, you're hard at work I see  ;D

Is this "Iron mode" a permadeath mode?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on September 21, 2012, 02:48:43 PM
Whoo auggie buff!  :D

I also am curious about iron mode. It's probably to relieve some of the overly heated debate we've seen surrounding such a thing, haha.

Also don't rush the man. I expect a few more weeks of tinkering/bug fixing and new features.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on September 21, 2012, 02:48:45 PM
Iron Mode?  I assume that's the 'hardcore mode' people wouldn't shut up about.  Please don't give special content unlocks to the people playing it.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 21, 2012, 02:58:53 PM
It's the "always save on exit, no reloading" mode.

It's probably to relieve some of the overly heated debate we've seen surrounding such a thing, haha.

It's actually not in response to the debate(s) - was always a planned feature, and since I was working on character creation anyway, seemed like a good time to add it.


Also don't rush the man. I expect a few more weeks of tinkering/bug fixing and new features.

Oh, the irony of that being intended as not rushing me :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: naufrago on September 21, 2012, 02:59:49 PM
Well, it's both - don't underestimate the impact of being able to dissipate soft flux while phased.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely think it'll be worth 17FP with the changes to phase cloaking, I was just hoping it would keep the 20FP cost and receive some other buffs- something like a built-in weapon along with some minor buffs to dissipation and/or OP. Make it live up to the name "Doom", sorta thing.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Upgradecap on September 21, 2012, 03:02:10 PM
I'd actually love to see the sensor-stuff on phase ships that was previously suggested in the suggestion boards. But, i can understand alex not wanting this - and if that's the case, then i hope we can see some moddability of that system :)

Anyways, i like the way the skills are forming, and the way characters are created now does indeed make for a few interesting modding solutions, hmmm ;)

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on September 21, 2012, 03:05:18 PM
It's the "always save on exit, no reloading" mode.
Sweeeeeeeet.  :D

Also don't rush the man. I expect a few more months of tinkering/bug fixing and new features.

Oh, the irony of that being intended as not rushing me :)
There I fixed it. ;P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: erynr73 on September 21, 2012, 03:19:51 PM
"Augmented Engines no longer has flux dissipation penalty, engines take 2x longer to repair instead"

I'm a max flux dissipation max speed style pilot and this makes me giggle like a Japanese schoolgirl on speed.  Wants to play it noaws...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on September 21, 2012, 03:25:02 PM
I don't get why they need arbitary penalties to the modifications.  But whatever.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Upgradecap on September 21, 2012, 03:25:56 PM
I don't get why they need arbitary penalties to the modifications.  But whatever.

One would assume to not make them no-brainers.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on September 21, 2012, 03:27:00 PM
Yeah, choices aren't real choices if they aren't aren't interesting.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: naufrago on September 21, 2012, 03:28:02 PM
I don't get why they need arbitary penalties to the modifications.  But whatever.

So a hullmod can have bigger a benefit without its OP cost being prohibitively expensive. Otherwise it would be a no-brainer rather than an interesting decision.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on September 21, 2012, 03:30:30 PM
I don't get why they need arbitary penalties to the modifications.  But whatever.

One would assume to not make them no-brainers.


Then why don't all hull mods have penalties.  The only reason I can think of is penalizing popular mods because they're popular.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Upgradecap on September 21, 2012, 03:33:48 PM
Yeah, we can lower the OP cost of all hullmods down to zero, and remove penalties. But where's the fun in that, when you know that you don't really have a choice to make other than spam-click on every hullmod
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on September 21, 2012, 03:40:42 PM
Then why don't all hull mods have penalties.  The only reason I can think of is penalizing popular mods because they're popular.
Some of the choices are interesting enough just with op cost. Usually the weaker ones.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on September 21, 2012, 04:41:15 PM
Then why don't all hull mods have penalties.  The only reason I can think of is penalizing popular mods because they're popular.
Some of the choices are interesting enough just with op cost. Usually the weaker ones.


So instead of making the less useful hullmods more useful you nerf the better ones so that they're just as mediocre as the rest of the mods? 
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Uomoz on September 21, 2012, 05:09:56 PM
Then why don't all hull mods have penalties.  The only reason I can think of is penalizing popular mods because they're popular.
Some of the choices are interesting enough just with op cost. Usually the weaker ones.


So instead of making the less useful hullmods more useful you nerf the better ones so that they're just as balanced as the rest of the mods? 

Fixed it for you. Take a deep breath before posting ;)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on September 21, 2012, 05:42:38 PM
Then why don't all hull mods have penalties.  The only reason I can think of is penalizing popular mods because they're popular.
Some of the choices are interesting enough just with op cost. Usually the weaker ones.


So instead of making the less useful hullmods more useful you nerf the better ones so that they're just as balanced as the rest of the mods? 

Fixed it for you. Take a deep breath before posting ;)


I'm perfectly calm, what gives you the idea otherwise.  I just saw this all happen before where whatever was good was nerfed until you were flummoxed by indecision because everything was terrible.  I recommend you watch this video at least:  http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Uomoz on September 21, 2012, 05:51:04 PM
I don't see your point. Those mods have penalties because they are balanced like this.

Think it this way, a mod that gives +5 to something can also be presented as a +10 to that stat and -5 to another. In the end all mods will give generally +5 as they are balanced. It's not about popularity (???) plus I don't see any nerf (as nerf is something that gets depowered over time, while mods were always like this).

EDIT: Just watched the video. It's talking only about Multiplayer, as indeed that concept of imbalance is very important in multi player games (I'm a captain of a Dota2 team so I know well enough about strengths and counters and general imbalances). That do not apply in a system where your enemy DO NOT react to your "imbalance" though, so a balanced environment is better fitting.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on September 21, 2012, 06:16:20 PM
I just saw this all happen before where whatever was good was nerfed until you were flummoxed by indecision because everything was terrible. 

I think it's not about good or bad, but about how a hullmod benefits a certain tactic you wish a ship to perform, and if the hullmod en- or discourages you to do so. If any hullmod is so powerful that you simply must build a sniper/tank/speedster to compete, the balancing is off. If you want to go with a certain tactic but cannot because of a terrible hullmod that would be needed, it is off as well.

If all hullmods were trying to archive the same thing (f.e. make the ship a good brawler) your concern might be legitimate, but they do not, so there's no need to worry...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ghoti on September 21, 2012, 06:49:48 PM
My dear flying lord. I am reminded of trying to convince flash frozen about the photon repeater. Gong show.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Catra on September 21, 2012, 07:05:22 PM
it...kinda is about good or bad:

it's better to be indecisive about something when everything is good ( EG: do you want a tank ship to tank with it's armor or shields? ) than being indecisive because everything is so bad that you just don't want to use them and just get ships that do what you want naturally ( EG: instead of kitting out a lasher with aug engines, i'll instead get a wolf which can just tele across the field. )

in regards to the change:

why does the aug engine need such a hardcore downside, when the other mods that support other playstyles do not? why do people that want speedy ships have to get hit so hard if they choose to not want to be locked into a specific ship set?

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gaizokubanou on September 21, 2012, 07:10:35 PM
Then why don't all hull mods have penalties.  The only reason I can think of is penalizing popular mods because they're popular.

It's just an alternative way of balancing out hull mods.  Higher OP cost or weaker speed boost effect would have worked just as well.  Which is more fun?  It's probably different for everyone and it's hard to say which is more fun for most of us.

But I guess that doesn't really answer what Catra asked; what's so different about improved engine that only it warrants this completely unique way of balancing?  Perhaps Alex wants to add penalties to other hull mods in the future?  I don't know.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on September 21, 2012, 07:19:53 PM
There's more than one mod with a penalty. It's not just auggie engines...

The penalty isn't even that harsh. It can be mitigated with several other hull mods just like before...

If you don't want to get relegated to a specific set of ships you have to pay the Piper. Making all the ships capable of everything the exact same is boring.

EDIT: I see the auggie engines change as a BUFF even. You are now faster and better at evading, so the prospect of taking the damage that would shut you down for longer is now actually less. It's much better than getting slapped with an arbitrary flux fine.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Ghoti on September 21, 2012, 07:32:22 PM
wuh wa.. WAIT

You thought the augmented engines change was a NERF?

Who thought that was a nerf?

That's going to be required equipment from now on.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 21, 2012, 07:45:27 PM
in regards to the change:

why does the aug engine need such a hardcore downside, when the other mods that support other playstyles do not? why do people that want speedy ships have to get hit so hard if they choose to not want to be locked into a specific ship set?

I think it's a very minor downside, actually. If your engines are getting hit to the point where they're flaming out, you've got bigger problems. What I want to do there, though, is create more risk for a kiting-focused style augmented engines enable - yeah, you can kite better, but you have to be a little more careful. Or, on the flip side, your <insert bruiser ship> can get at the enemy faster, but you have to watch your back a bit more.

The point is to try to make picking it something other than a no-brainer. Speed is just so important, and it's hard to balance a speed-giving hull mod with OP alone. Not saying it's perfectly balanced - but I do feel the downside of it is getting blown way out of proportion.

Ultimately, downsides allow more and better choices. Both because you have to account for the disadvantages, and because you now have more hull mods you can pick, since they cost less OP. Of course, you could instead have cheaper pure-upside hullmods with smaller bonuses, but I think that'd be less interesting - more pronounced changes to the ship are more interesting to consider.

Edit: I don't mean to imply that more choices is always better. It just comes down to - and I hate to even say it - something as nebulous as playtesting and tweaking it enough to make the choices "fun". Obviously that's subjective. On a related note, I'm actually going to look through hull mods in the near future and make some adjustments.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Catra on September 21, 2012, 10:17:33 PM
Quote
I think it's a very minor downside, actually.

 a minor downside is more along the lines of heavy armour :

- low tech ships because they're slow anyway and they have goods arcs to the point where unless you -really- need to look forward, it's not going to be a performance hit.

- mid line ships because they have their jets.

- high tech because they are maneuverable enough to the point where even if they take a hit, they can still perform fairly well.


possibly sitting uselessly in space for much longer and having to be more overly critical about everything elses positions (enemies, allies, missiles, allied missiles, etc) and your fleet possibly being denied some heavy firepower for even much longer, when compared to pretty much getting free armour and just being more reckless and relaxed, is a fairly huge downside, and a much more unfair one to the player who wants a more faster fleet than the player who wants a more meatier fleet.

going further with this example:

in the previous(current? i suppose) aug engine downside, you didn't have to pay as much to get back to where you were (if you so desired to do so) and maybe get a little more than that, with this, you cannot.

also, with the vent cut, it wasn't down to luck / incompetence (either on your part or the AIs). you could prevent an overload by shutting down the shields and backing off to vent, however no amount of eye laser glares or harsh words would get those missiles to not slam into your engines, or those pesky ships to not mess up your rear.

for heavy armour users, you can get XX% more maneuvering for w/e amount of OP with somewhat no downside(may or maynot have to sacrifice some heavy OP guns for it), this bonus was MUCH more higher than the amount of venting you could get.

this was fairly ok, as just like the heavy armour downside, you could cancel it out (or not worry about it altogether, in some circumstances), however now you cannot and you have to pay significantly more to lessen the effect whereas heavy armour ships can get a rather large gain.

inb4 "if heavy armour is so great, why doesn't everyone use it then": different styles are different, i could live / workaround my ships not turning as well. some people may not.*

Quote
If your engines are getting hit to the point where they're flaming out, you've got bigger problems.

not really, there have been far far far far far more times when tele-ships / flanking ships / missiles have gotten lucky  to do JUST ENOUGH for me to flameout and make me drift uselessly and my fleet got denied their heavy support firepower, than situations where my engines cutout in / lead to fatal situations, in which case 2x repair rate is redundant unless the enemy ships suddenly get a severe case of OOOOOH SHINY! and leave me be and disperse.

inb4 " my experiences are different! you're doing it wrong / stop trolling / play the game ": such is the way of games like these. naturally mine are going to be different from yours, whats happening to you isn't the same that's happening to everyone else.*
 
Quote
but I do feel the downside of it is getting blown way out of proportion.

and i feel you're vastly downplaying it so people just go along with it with the least amount of fuss, your blanket statement above kindof proves that.


* not specifically aimed at you alex.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: StahnAileron on September 21, 2012, 11:03:55 PM
Personally, as soon as I read the Flux hit for Aug Eng was swapped for 2x repair time on flame-outs, I was thrilled. Mind you, as others have apparently mentioned, some may not like the change. However, considering my play style - mobility: hit hard, fast (both speed-related), and as often as possible (for me, flux-related) - this is something of a godsend for me.

I tend to use Hi-tech ships (or any ship with a wide shield cover thanks to the blessed Fixed-Shield hullmod; makes some more ships viable for my play-style), so if I ever get a flameout, that's my own damn fault for not watching my butt like I'm supposed to (and normally do.) Hi-tech vessels practically live and die by the flux stats (well, at least IMHO with my play style), so I rarely took aug engines for my mainline combat ships unless the loadout I had on them was relatively gentle on the flux vents. (I did give all my freighters aug engines though, namely to help keep up my fleet speed on the sector map.)

Honestly, it could have been worse: Aug Engines could've made flame-out easier to achieve ^_~ Well, not really sure what would be worse:

or
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Catra on September 22, 2012, 12:04:20 AM
i found vents to be inferior to capacity on high techs, i always hit the flux ceiling earlier than if i took capacitors mostly due to how you're a shield tank, the hard flux catches up much faster making any venting irrelevant( could've sworn there was a good thread somewhere where this was discussed and concluded that venting > capacity for low techs, venting = capacity for mid lines, and venting < capacity for high techs. :/ ).

if anything, this is going to help low / mid line ships, since they relied the most on venting and aug engines shafted them the hardest.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: StahnAileron on September 22, 2012, 01:10:02 AM
I understand what you mean. However, since my play style is a bit more speed-based, the venting and speed go hand-in-hand for me on a couple ships due to how I outfit them (at least for human control. AI is another matter entirely.) I know that Flux Cap is a bit more important overall for Hi-tech ships, but since I rely a bit more on speed, I use my speed advantage to get in, unload, get out, vent (QUICKLY), repeat (dodge/evade as needed/possible).

A high Flux Cap with low Flux Vent is actually fairly detrimental when you finally do need to vent off built up flux, IMHO (and some experience). I honestly prefer flux venting over flux capacity in most of my builds. (I'm actually a bit opposite for my mid-/low-tech: I tend to prioritize flux cap for my low tech ships; they are designed to take armor hits better than hi-tech.) I like to stay in forced venting mode for as LITTLE as possible. As I recall, force venting [V-key] doubles your vent rate for the duration of the venting.

I find focusing on vent rate is a bit more offensive-oriented (venting flux as quickly as possible to offset the build up so you can fire more continuously, even at/near max flux cap.) Flux cap focus is more of something I use for my more defensive/tank designs. Though I will admit I'm making a very broad generalization about my play style. It depends on the ship and loadout as well. As an example, what you mentioned is perfectly valid and true when I'm sitting in my Paragon. On the flip side, I prefer vents over caps on my Hyperion.

Anyway, I do see your point.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on September 22, 2012, 06:51:28 AM
and i feel you're vastly downplaying it so people just go along with it with the least amount of fuss, your blanket statement above kindof proves that.


Ich schmeiß mich weg!
And I feel you try to make it sound as if Alex was some kind of evil dictator, trying to raise our taxes and cut our liberties  and sell it to us as progress, and you are the only one to notice. Is that how you feel?


Besides, the numbers a clear: On a eagle you need 13 Op to cancel the current effect, but only 9 for insulated engines, which cancels the double engine damage. On a Aurora the difference is 22:9. On a Medusa 10:6. On a tempest 6:3. On a Paragon 32:15.  So it's clearly a buff for Augmented engines.

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on September 22, 2012, 07:47:28 AM
When I read the Aug engines change I literally started cackling in glee. For my playstyle its a huge buff (I am solidly in the vents > capacity camp for about 80% of ships, and for the other 20% its a mix). I understand that for other people it is less of a buff.... but simply by the numbers it is purely beneficial.

...
Aw yeah! Seems like stuff is pretty nailed down now, release soon?

Not quite :) These are initial skill implementations - now I get to spend lots of time tweaking things until they feel right. There are also a few other things I want to get into this release. Or, at least, am seriously considering.

Any change of a .53.5a with just the fighter AI changes :P? (Yes I'm kidding, I'm just super excited for them!)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on September 22, 2012, 07:52:33 AM
Seems as if I missed a lot.  More debate?  Could I join in? ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Catra on September 22, 2012, 09:00:25 AM
and i feel you're vastly downplaying it so people just go along with it with the least amount of fuss, your blanket statement above kindof proves that.


Ich schmeiß mich weg!
And I feel you try to make it sound as if Alex was some kind of evil dictator, trying to raise our taxes and cut our liberties  and sell it to us as progress, and you are the only one to notice. Is that how you feel?


Besides, the numbers a clear: On a eagle you need 13 Op to cancel the current effect, but only 9 for insulated engines, which cancels the double engine damage. On a Aurora the difference is 22:9. On a Medusa 10:6. On a tempest 6:3. On a Paragon 32:15.  So it's clearly a buff for Augmented engines.



Je comprends très peu l'allemand :/ je suis désolé.

io sono interessato a quello che si sta gettando però!



the downside isn't double engine damage, it's double repair rate, which you would be looking at the automated repair unit for, which only brings it down to 1.5x longer to bring back up, costs are as follows:

capitals: ARU costs 35 OP cost to negate aug engine: 15 ( onslaught ) - 25 ( odyssey )
cruisers: ARU cost: 25 OP cost to negate aug engine: 12 ( dominator ) - 18 ( apogee )
destroyers: ARU cost: 10 cost to negate aug engine: 7 ( hammerhead ) - 10  ( low mid high are the same )
frigates: ARU cost: 5 cost to negate aug engine: 3 ( lasher ) - 6 ( brawler )

so, you really only lose out on the brawler, break even on most of the destroyers then go down hill fast from there.

inb4 " you also lose out on the tempest and hyperion! " yes you do, but neither of those vessels are really worth considering to put aug engines on in the first place.

Quote
Seems as if I missed a lot.  More debate?  Could I join in?

only if you know another language so you could exclaim something and leave your reader very confused and slightly amused when it's translated. :P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 22, 2012, 09:26:24 AM
@Catra: I understand what you're saying. The potential downside is greater, or at least more concentrated in time, but on the other hand, it can be much reduced with skill. But - that sounds like a very good outcome to me.

I don't think getting shot in the engines with missiles is random. It's either a glaring piloting error or a lack of awareness (i.e., burn driving somewhere it wasn't a good idea to be). Or a matchup where you can't avoid it - i.e., no omni shields and no rear-facing PD vs many Salamanders - which is again not random. Some luck is involved, certainly, but no more than for anything else.

Comparing the ARU like that misses the fact that it has an impact beyond just engine repair. In general, breaking things down into an OP comparison tends to oversimplify them. It's useful, certainly, but it's rarely definitive. (Another point: the flux dissipation penalty can't be compensated for if you're already at full vents - which is fairly common for smaller ships.)

I don't think Insulated Engines should be discounted, either - they don't affect the exact same stat, but they still affect the end result. Auxiliary Thrusters is another mod that has an impact. Resistant Flux Conduits neutralize one of the the primary sources of flameouts. Etc, etc. I just don't think it can be broken down that cleanly.

There's also a new factor to consider: skill effects - which, for existing skills, affect all of the stats involved.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Catra on September 22, 2012, 11:15:31 AM
Quote
I don't think getting shot in the engines with missiles is random.

pilums coming out of the FoW (either due to some flanking ship or something behind you, or they are coming back for another try) is random.
salamander speed boost, while it goes off at the same time, is random because we can't see WHEN it will off.
you can't even tell when a ship is or isn't going to launch a missile, so yes it is a rather random.

Quote
(Another point: the flux dissipation penalty can't be compensated for if you're already at full vents - which is fairly common for smaller ships.)

this is not a point at all, they are already very much compensated for when at full vents. see the graph, you do not need much to get back to where you were( actually, some of them ARE gains, albeit extremely small ones ).

Quote
Comparing the ARU like that misses the fact that it has an impact beyond just engine repair.

since it's JUST the engine repair that's relevant to the discussion, there's no reason to drag anything else into it.

Quote
I don't think Insulated Engines should be discounted, either

i wasn't discounting them, just showing him that "hey, you're using the wrong numbers."

Quote
he potential downside is greater, or at least more concentrated in time, but on the other hand, it can be much reduced with skill.


its not even just the potential downside, there's also the downside of just being unable to wade into combat, you actually HAVE to consider things more critically, whereas armour / shield mod users do not. this is where it's fairly inbalanced, one playstyle has to work a fair bit harder to achieve the same result that actually is EASIER for the other 2 as they aren't even at that bad of a disadvantage, as most of the ships that need to move quick either has a way to do so ( jets / burn drive ) are naturally fast (hound, anything high tech) can tele ( anything high tech ) or can have long range weapons ( just about everything above destroyer ).
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Talkie Toaster on September 22, 2012, 11:43:24 AM
pilums coming out of the FoW (either due to some flanking ship or something behind you, or they are coming back for another try) is random.
salamander speed boost, while it goes off at the same time, is random because we can't see WHEN it will off.
you can't even tell when a ship is or isn't going to launch a missile, so yes it is a rather random.
That's not really random. You might not get the opportunity to react, but it's predictable (Pilums will be coming from the top half of the screen (or you've already seen them go past once and know they're coming back), you can see which ships have Salamanders from their loadout), negatable (PD) and suprise pilums can be countered by better scouting. You need tactical & strategic awareness; you can't just rely on agility to dodge all attacks with no notice. If your ship has no PD and you can't scout then it may not be a good idea to stick Augmented Engines on it and send it off on its own.

Quote
its not even just the potential downside, there's also the downside of just being unable to wade into combat, you actually HAVE to consider things more critically, whereas armour / shield mod users do not. this is where it's fairly inbalanced, one playstyle has to work a fair bit harder to achieve the same result that actually is EASIER for the other 2 as they aren't even at that bad of a disadvantage, as most of the ships that need to move quick either has a way to do so ( jets / burn drive ) are naturally fast (hound, anything high tech) can tele ( anything high tech ) or can have long range weapons ( just about everything above destroyer ).
Speed is incredibly valuable thanks to the cap points. Having speedier ships gives you move FP, more range, more maneuverability and yet more speed in combat and is also useful on the system map. More speed lets you pick and choose which targets to engage and when to disengage, letting you drop shields & vent safely (so you don't need to take hits on armour to vent). Yes, you have to work more to perform to par with ships set up to armour/shield tank in a straight-up fight, but that's the price you pay for all the side benefits.

Really, all this change does is discourage slapping AE on a ship with poor PD and running out solo with it up to the fog of war; this is great, as it makes AE less of a must-have for rushing to cap points as the downside of 'maybe the ship gets flared out and lost' is a bigger one, and makes it harder to win early centre-point battles by rushing in with poorly-supported cruisers with AE. Equally, it makes second-wave ships with AE more viable.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on September 22, 2012, 12:01:20 PM
This list is looking great, Alex! Really excited about this next build, it's going to take the game a big step towards feeling like a full-fledged RPG :) 

Any chance we're going to see a Mutablestat that can affect in-system travel speed for fleets yet?  Really want to do that as a System or via character skill, it's one of the few major gripes I've had with the campaign's feel lately :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Catra on September 22, 2012, 12:10:35 PM
pilums coming from the front aren't a threat, read what i wrote in parentheses.

not all PD is as reliable at stopping missiles as flak is.

i very well know i can see the loadout, but thats not what i was talking about, im talking about the missile in the air, it's pseudo-random when it will slam into you, and you can sortof guess where its going to be, right up until it starts moving faster.

and if you read past the first line, you will notice that i brought up the points that there are ships with abilities that can outpace an aug engine ship in those regards.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 22, 2012, 12:13:11 PM
This list is looking great, Alex! Really excited about this next build, it's going to take the game a big step towards feeling like a full-fledged RPG :) 

Thanks :)

Any chance we're going to see a Mutablestat that can affect in-system travel speed for fleets yet?  Really want to do that as a System or via character skill, it's one of the few major gripes I've had with the campaign's feel lately :)

Yep, that's already there (the "Navigation" skill uses it). A preview of the MutableCharacterStatsAPI - which will likely change some along the way:
Spoiler

   int getSkillPoints();
   int getAptitudePoints();
   void setSkillPoints(int points);
   void setAptitudePoints(int points);
   
   void addAptitudePoints(int points);
   void addSkillPoints(int points);
   void increaseSkill(String id);
   void increaseAptitude(String id);
   
   void setSkillLevel(String id, float level);
   void setAptitudeLevel(String id, float level);
   float getAptitudeLevel(String id);
   
   /**
    * Only returns whole numbers. Float is used for convenience to avoid some extra casting. Other methods work likewise.
    * @param id
    * @return
    */
   float getSkillLevel(String id);
   
   
   
   
   MutableStat getWeaponOPCostMult();
   StatBonus getShipOrdnancePointBonus();
   
   StatBonus getSmallWeaponOPCost();
   StatBonus getMediumWeaponOPCost();
   StatBonus getLargeWeaponOPCost();
   
   MutableStat getFleetPoints();
   
   MutableStat getCommandPoints();
   
   MutableStat getMarineEffectivnessMult();
   MutableStat getCrewXPGainMult();
   
   MutableStat getFleetSizeTravelPenaltyMult();
   
   //StatBonus getCombatDeploymentCost();
   
   StatBonus getMaxCapacitorsBonus();
   StatBonus getMaxVentsBonus();
   
   StatBonus getTravelSpeedBonus();
   
   MutableStat getFriendlyShipRepairChance();
   MutableStat getEnemyShipRepairChance();
   
   MutableStat getTravelRepairRateMult();
[close]
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on September 22, 2012, 12:28:24 PM
Hey, a hint as to what's coming!  There's a bunch of skills up on the changelog, mind if you organise them into the 4 aptitudes? :)
Anyways, will skills be moddable?  I've probably asked this already, but I've got a terrible case of brain-farts right about now. -_-
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on September 22, 2012, 02:01:10 PM
I'm not against the change to aug-engines what I am against is that hull mods >need< to have a penalty assoicated to them.  I was mainly complaining about the first time penalties were introduced because it just seemed like a waste of time.  Adding a penalty to Advanced Optics and Augumented Engines just seemed like a case of "It's popular therefore it's overpowered".
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DelicateTask on September 22, 2012, 02:24:28 PM
So much arguing going on around here. I can barely keep my head straight. But I just wanted to mention something that occurred to me while reading the above post.
I'm not against the change to aug-engines what I am against is that hull mods >need< to have a penalty assoicated to them.  I was mainly complaining about the first time penalties were introduced because it just seemed like a waste of time.  Adding a penalty to Advanced Optics and Augumented Engines just seemed like a case of "It's popular therefore it's overpowered".
I liked using advanced optics before, but I felt like the extra range for low OP was a bit cheap, and I put it on every ship that had a beam weapon. Now, I at least have to think about it first, and I like that too. I won't put it on a ship that uses lots of PD lasers because they need to turn fast to track missiles. I like having to choose carefully what I want my build to be, instead of always going with my favorite hull mods every time. However, I wouldn't mind it if some hull mods didn't have downsides because they're a bit weaker or only useful in certain situations.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on September 22, 2012, 02:35:39 PM
So much arguing going on around here. I can barely keep my head straight. But I just wanted to mention something that occurred to me while reading the above post.
I'm not against the change to aug-engines what I am against is that hull mods >need< to have a penalty assoicated to them.  I was mainly complaining about the first time penalties were introduced because it just seemed like a waste of time.  Adding a penalty to Advanced Optics and Augumented Engines just seemed like a case of "It's popular therefore it's overpowered".
I liked using advanced optics before, but I felt like the extra range for low OP was a bit cheap, and I put it on every ship that had a beam weapon. Now, I at least have to think about it first, and I like that too. I won't put it on a ship that uses lots of PD lasers because they need to turn fast to track missiles. I like having to choose carefully what I want my build to be, instead of always going with my favorite hull mods every time. However, I wouldn't mind it if some hull mods didn't have downsides because they're a bit weaker or only useful in certain situations.


All I saw it was as a way to increase the price by ten OP or suffer a penalty.  Adding in Turret Gyros counterats the penalty almost completely.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Catra on September 22, 2012, 02:57:13 PM
but there's really not that much to think about IRT optics and PD :

PD laser has a turn rate of 45 after optics
LRPD has a turn rate of 36
Burst PD has a turn rate of 60

for comparison:

the LMG/LDMG has a turn rate of 50
the flak cannon is 40 (and boy can that thing swivel)
the HMG is 40

just about every other gun barely breaks 20

the big number only looks crippling, but really isn't.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Archduke Astro on September 22, 2012, 03:10:26 PM
So much arguing going on around here. I can barely keep my head straight.

I happen to agree. Folks, dial-down the acrimony and [bill and ted] be excellent to each other [/bill and ted].

The above whirlwind re: 'hullmods with penalties' got way out of hand. I now regret voluntarily standing back from this thread for a bit in order to gauge the community's ability to regulate itself. If the patchnotes threads keep devolving like this, I am going to resort to sterner measures again to keep them on-track.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on September 22, 2012, 03:13:47 PM
PD generally has to have a high turn rate, it's kinda obvious.

Anyways, will skills be moddable?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: silentstormpt on September 22, 2012, 07:53:55 PM
As always great work, now here comes me being greedy, blame human nature!

Could you add Station (battles) in this patch or a small one after this one, with that and maybe mining would pretty much closed any work needed in system wise, opening the new work on the galaxy map (multiple solar systems).

Im actually pretty excited when the galaxy map comes out, just thinking about how long it would need to create every system in some mods ive had halted is making my spine chill. 300+ systems on Star Trek, 100+ random generated systems on the MOO mod, the Star Control mod with probably 200 or +  :o
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on September 22, 2012, 08:38:23 PM
Quote
Yep, that's already there (the "Navigation" skill uses it).
Wonderful; I can't wait to upgrade my skills to the point where my Evil Pirate Fleet can actually catch those pesky Indies as they flit back and forth with their tempting cargoes of Duranium :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 23, 2012, 08:28:53 AM
However, I wouldn't mind it if some hull mods didn't have downsides because they're a bit weaker or only useful in certain situations.

Well, most mods do not in fact have downsides :)


Anyways, will skills be moddable?

Yep.

As always great work, now here comes me being greedy, blame human nature!

Could you add Station (battles) in this patch or a small one after this one, with that and maybe mining would pretty much closed any work needed in system wise, opening the new work on the galaxy map (multiple solar systems).

I don't think that's the order things are going to go in - I'd like to more firmly establish the role stations play in the game first. Right now they just kind of magically exist.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Psycho Society on September 23, 2012, 01:38:04 PM
Yeah. Character development is neat and all, but I'm dying to see what happens when factions and fleets can interact in a meaningful way.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on September 23, 2012, 03:46:48 PM
All in good time.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: hydremajor on September 23, 2012, 10:44:35 PM
I don't think that's the order things are going to go in - I'd like to more firmly establish the role stations play in the game first. Right now they just kind of magically exist.

What I can see happen is that the whole "multiple systems" thing will be implemented last

Hence, right after its in the "filling", so to speak, of the game could start

Right now I'm expecting Space stations to have multiple variants

Mining stations

Refinerie station

Trade stations

Harvest station

and

Occupation station (wich would require destroyable space stations in the first place)

What I mean is, you don't do the mining yourself, you just toss a space station near an asteroid belt and on a daily basis it produces stuff you then take this stuff to another place for it to convert it into supplies/weapons/ships, wich in turn you can put in your other stations for them to be sold...Or just use'em yourself...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xanderh on September 24, 2012, 03:30:45 AM
What I mean is, you don't do the mining yourself, you just toss a space station near an asteroid belt and on a daily basis it produces stuff you then take this stuff to another place for it to convert it into supplies/weapons/ships, wich in turn you can put in your other stations for them to be sold...Or just use'em yourself...

I'd actually like to do the mining myself, in the style of SPAZ, but slightly different.

You outfit a ship (like the venture) with one or more mining blasters, or other similar weapons, and shoot the asteroids. This should break them apart in smaller pieces, which can then be collected with tractor beams, and packaged so it will fit in freighters. You can have specialised tractor ships and packaging ships, making the process faster and better. You can of course also have fleets that automatically do this, if you don't want to do this yourself.

And if you don't like the idea of tractor beams, due to it being pretty unrealistic, you can always substitute it with "mover" drones. They are basically drones with large engines and grappling hooks, attaching themselves to asteroids, and moving them towards and into the freighters.

A good way of showing how the ores are stored in the freighters would be animated ship parts. On ships like the buffalo, the sides or other parts could open up, exposing the cargohold. The atlas is a different beast, as it has a tonne of small cargo containers on the outside of the hull. These could be animated as well, by only appearing when items are moved into it. These animations should only appear when you're mining in an area with no enemy ships, as it would endanger the ships too much with exposed cargoholds. This would also help diminish the effects on performance, as only relevant ships are on screen, along with only a couple of projectiles.

Of course, I don't know how hard it would be to animate sections of the hull, but I imagine it could possibly be done with fake built-in weapon mounts, as these can already be animated.



If requested, I will move this post into the suggestions forum, so it can be properly discussed. I will cross-link, so nothing will be lost when discussing.



EDIT: new thread posted here-> http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4436.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4436.0), please discuss it there.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: rex on September 24, 2012, 06:06:17 PM
Yeah, that sounds like a whole lot of work with little reward.  I'm much rather have a C&C-ish, build a factory, queue up a dozen ships capable of mining, and point them in the direction of the nearest asteroid belt. Personally I have zero interest in micromanaging resource gathering. Particularly not middle/late game, when I would much rather be building up a nice steam roller for conquering systems and expanding my empire.

If possible, I'd like to play at the embodiment of an Aggressive Hegemonising Swarm.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on September 24, 2012, 06:13:00 PM
I'm more of a micro-person, I like to plot my invasion, make everything perfect, and watch with satisfaction how my epic plan moves out. :)

But I think this should go to another, seperate, topic if it goes on.  A nice discussion, shouldn't see it go to waste.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xanderh on September 24, 2012, 11:27:06 PM
welcome to the forum, Rex. That's the first time I've got someone to make a reply to a post of mine with their first post ever :)

Just to quickly elaborate before I post another thread:
I'm pretty sure I said somewhere in that post, that you could have other fleets specialised to do this, instead of doing it yourself.
I like doing this kind of stuff, as I find it relaxing, but I see how some people would find it boring. That is why I think it should be optional (unlike SPAZ, where it was mandatory if you screwed up), but personally, I think it's a good way to enable players to have a career as a miner, which was stated as a future feature on the home page.

And please, don't continue this discussion in this thread, I will post another thread in the suggestions forum, and edit my posts with a link. I will keep the content, though.



new thread here -> http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4436.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4436.0), please discuss there.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: silentstormpt on September 25, 2012, 05:07:32 AM
OK, this request is a for modding only, you know that HIDDEN weapons fire from the weapon position from the top of the ship, well some mods like total conversions have ships with weapons Below the ship, id like to ask would be have 2 types of HIDDEN weapons, the HIDDEN_UNDER, would make the actual weapon fire under the hull, this is specially important on the Star Trek mod where alot of weaponry is under the hull.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on September 25, 2012, 08:17:30 AM
OK, this request is a for modding only, you know that HIDDEN weapons fire from the weapon position from the top of the ship, well some mods like total conversions have ships with weapons Below the ship, id like to ask would be have 2 types of HIDDEN weapons, the HIDDEN_UNDER, would make the actual weapon fire under the hull, this is specially important on the Star Trek mod where alot of weaponry is under the hull.

This has come up quite a few times in the suggestions forum :) I can't seem to find my reply, but it basically boils down to this: no, due to some subtle and not-so-subtle rendering order problems it would introduce.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on September 25, 2012, 09:08:00 AM
well wouldnt it be possible to create invisible barrel that ends with the end of the ships hull? at least that should work for hardpoints basically the projectile would leave the barrel at the end of the ship without showing inside of it....
that said ive never tried to mod starfarer so i have no idea how exactly rendering of hidden weapons works
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: WKOB on September 25, 2012, 09:09:00 AM
That's my solution, DJ.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on September 25, 2012, 12:36:04 PM
That's my solution, DJ.
oh sorry didnt know anyone is using that it was just an idea based on the description of the problem  ;)
i dont play with mods so i couldnt have known  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: WKOB on September 26, 2012, 07:09:29 AM
Er, I wasn't saying you stole the idea or anything like that, just concurring with you.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on September 26, 2012, 12:52:55 PM
Any updates?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Blips on September 26, 2012, 06:06:33 PM
The last update was just 5 days ago...  ::)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Barracuda on September 26, 2012, 07:40:00 PM
World of tanks had the best update of the year today. With StarFarer did to. I might have just ran out said and yelled YES as loud as i could.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on September 27, 2012, 01:12:30 AM
Er, I wasn't saying you stole the idea or anything like that, just concurring with you.
yeah i know  ;) just kidding....and tbh i had no idea if that would really work so its good someone confirmed it really does work
does it work for turrets btw? or does just look strange?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DelicateTask on September 27, 2012, 10:57:26 AM
The last update was just 5 days ago...  ::)
And now it's been 6. :o
The starving masses crave sustenance. We can't help it that we've been spoiled. ;)

At any rate, content releases seem to happen approx. every two months. Alex is right on schedule still.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: pigreko on September 28, 2012, 04:48:27 AM
The new updates are very interesting. Really I cannot imagine the variety and complexity of this game at the end of development. And yet we have to hear about quests and story telling.

double thumbs up!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on September 29, 2012, 06:50:55 AM
I can wait, I like like to see progress. :) No matter the wait or what's in them, more patch notes is always a good thing.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Pelhamds on September 29, 2012, 12:56:25 PM
World of tanks had the best update of the year today. With StarFarer did to. I might have just ran out said and yelled YES as loud as i could.

Yep, best two updates this month.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 02, 2012, 04:33:50 PM
It's been nearly 10 days.  What's being cooked up? :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on October 02, 2012, 04:50:13 PM
It's been nearly 10 days.  What's being cooked up? :)
Find a new game, a new hobby, or a job.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hopelessnoob on October 02, 2012, 05:39:41 PM
Sadly i took up hard drugs to bide the time between Starfarer releases sadly nothing quiet equals that high you get when first loading up a wonderful new updated version of Starfarer.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 02, 2012, 05:46:03 PM
It's been nearly 10 days.  What's being cooked up? :)
Find a new game, a new hobby, or a job.
Thanks you. -_-
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Psycho Society on October 02, 2012, 11:38:39 PM
Alex Mosolov is some kind of sinister genius, pandering to the escapist tendencies of our generation. Really it's my own vice that so often leads me to submerge myself in any of the emergent worlds painted by such people until reality is just the faintest glimmer of light from above, reminding me of the life left behind.

Back to studying for that math exam, then.

The Soldier: Biking is fun. Try biking.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 03, 2012, 11:45:03 AM
Already do that.  Almost like you read my mind.

Anyways, I'm patient, and I can wait. :) For FYI, I've got a job (sort of) fixing stuff.  Get paid, blah blah blah, it's a nice learning experience. :)

And back on topic, is there a skill that allows you to bypass planetational gravity?  I see it in one of the screenshots.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Pelhamds on October 03, 2012, 12:18:22 PM
woah woah woah theres a skill to stop that! YES I hate the slowing down going round a planet, then being pounced on by someone you've *** off....and try rowing thats a good hobby.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 03, 2012, 12:22:48 PM
Actually, I see the "0%" in the top left.  Maybe not in that screenshot, but could there be a skill for it?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DelicateTask on October 03, 2012, 01:52:13 PM
I hate the slowing down going round a planet, then being pounced on by someone you've *** off.
That just means you're doing it wrong. ;)
You should use it to catch fleets that are faster than you and crush them for profit.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Blips on October 03, 2012, 02:03:49 PM
Alright, now I'll admit I'm getting eager for another update to the patch notes  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: intothewildblueyonder on October 03, 2012, 06:26:47 PM
...skill that allows you to bypass planetational gravity?  I see it in one of the screenshots.

Where is said screenshot?

(and just remember everything is subject to change ;))
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 03, 2012, 06:39:33 PM
Actually, I see the "0%" in the top left.  Maybe not in that screenshot, but could there be a skill for it?
Questions? 8)

EDIT:
Oh, and Alex, you may want to update the main page after this patch with:
"Play your own character who gains experiences and upgrades skills"
In the "Current Features." :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on October 03, 2012, 10:16:15 PM
gief release date please

Spoiler
the game is pretty good by the way. i bought it. i know, i was surprised too. hell, we may be undergoing a space-genre renaissance. exciting times.
[close]
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 04, 2012, 05:03:00 AM

Spoiler
the game is pretty good by the way. i bought it. i know, i was surprised too. hell, we may be undergoing a space-genre renaissance. exciting times.
[close]

Good you put that in spoiler tags so I had time to prepare before reading.     ...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Upgradecap on October 04, 2012, 08:29:05 AM
space-genre renaissance. exciting times.

I sure damn hope we are doing exactly that. Oh how lucky i would be if it's still ongoing when i finish gymnasium. then i can rely on the fact that if i make a space game, it'd be popular from start.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Evito on October 04, 2012, 10:00:55 AM
Just registered for the forums, bought and played for quite awhile now and havent been disappointed by a patch yet.

And looking at the list i doubt i will be anytime soon either :)


Thats not to say there isnt something i'd like to see which is slightly more varied ship types as many of them feel handicapped or heavily constrained into a specific kind of set ups which wouldnt matter if there was more to choose from (yaya i know theres mods but not to diss them i dont like most of them as im a perfectionist and a collection of 20 good ships doesnt feel nice when theres 5 bad ones in the mix)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on October 04, 2012, 10:07:18 AM

Spoiler
the game is pretty good by the way. i bought it. i know, i was surprised too. hell, we may be undergoing a space-genre renaissance. exciting times.
[close]

Good you put that in spoiler tags so I had time to prepare before reading.     ...

are you making fun of me sir? i'll have you know that i take things said on the internet VERY SERIOUSLY
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 04, 2012, 10:23:37 AM

are you making fun of me sir? i'll have you know that i take things said on the internet VERY SERIOUSLY

Good to know, you will fit right in then. Welcome to the forum :)


And welcome to you too, Evito :)  I found that you can actually use most ships in a very broad variety of set ups and roles. But that also changes the best tactic to use, so if you try a new set up with old tactics you might be disappointed at first. Experiment a lot!


Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 05, 2012, 12:30:36 PM
Umm...did something happen?  It's not common for there to be so much time in between updates, unless there's going to be a splurg of info later on then I understand (50+ for about two weeks worth of effort in the .52a patch, that's understandable).
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on October 05, 2012, 12:40:24 PM
Maybe Alex need lots of time to balance things now. And he did go with "chains", but he abandon that idea. So, you know, lots of new stuff some gets implemented some gets replaced etc. you need time to balance all that out.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on October 05, 2012, 12:45:54 PM
Srsly. Was maybe 6 months for one update once (obvs the exception not the rule)...  It'll come when it comes. No need to rush the man.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 05, 2012, 03:51:40 PM
Well, it's only been two weeks since the patch notes were updated - that's not all that uncommon.

Maybe Alex need lots of time to balance things now. And he did go with "chains", but he abandon that idea. So, you know, lots of new stuff some gets implemented some gets replaced etc. you need time to balance all that out.

There's definitely some of that. I'm also currently experimenting with something else - not a new feature, exactly, but something I've wanted to do for a while. Call it a bonus for the next update, if it all works out like I hope :) Experimentation doesn't lend itself well to patch-notes-style updates, though.

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 05, 2012, 03:53:21 PM
Maybe I should stop. -_-

EDIT:
Ninj'd by Alex. ;D And two weeks, after I looked a few other patches, I guess is pretty common.  Guess I was ready for a 3-4 day patch note like the last one. :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: K-64 on October 05, 2012, 03:55:40 PM
Call it a bonus for the next update, if it all works out like I hope :) Experimentation doesn't lend itself well to patch-notes-style updates, though.

You just like to tease people, don't you? :P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 05, 2012, 03:57:19 PM
It's more of an aversion to saying too much and then not following through for <whatever development reason>, but yes, yes I do.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on October 05, 2012, 03:59:22 PM
Don't worry, we're not worried or going away :-)  Just wish I had time to polish up 0.2 of my mod and get it out there for us to play before the patch means I need to fix it  ;)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 05, 2012, 04:43:42 PM
"Jack of all trades, master of none, certainly better than a master of one."

Just thought I'd throw that quote in with the Character skills introduction. :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: craftomega on October 05, 2012, 07:07:48 PM
Personaly the only thing im really looking forward to now is more then one solar system. Untill then, back burner ho?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gaizokubanou on October 05, 2012, 09:52:37 PM
Personaly the only thing im really looking forward to now is more then one solar system. Untill then, back burner ho?

Why would you want more solar systems as of now when they will all be carbon copy of another with no real features to distinguish them apart (because there are no game mechanics that can create any meaningful variety yet)?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thana on October 05, 2012, 10:01:52 PM
Maybe I should stop. -_-

EDIT:
Ninj'd by Alex. ;D And two weeks, after I looked a few other patches, I guess is pretty common.  Guess I was ready for a 3-4 day patch note like the last one. :)

If anything, the pattern seems to be a significant update every two months or so (on average), followed by a hotfix update about a week or two later to iron out the new bugs and other smaller issues. Then back to working on a new, bigger update. That's the approximate way things seem to work. I can't say I think it's a bad model, since it does mean that new updates rarely break anything and are well thought out. The quality control of Fractal Softworks is impressive, but that does take time.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 07, 2012, 12:43:59 PM
Two months seems to be coming close, no? ;D
The quality of the updates are really good, indeed they are. :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Barracuda on October 07, 2012, 01:14:10 PM
Alex has a way of keeping people in waiting. The longer he makes us wait the more times i check the site in a hour. Its up to about 10 time each hour... Im just waiting to see october in the side bar.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: silentstormpt on October 07, 2012, 06:03:41 PM
Personaly the only thing im really looking forward to now is more then one solar system. Untill then, back burner ho?

Why would you want more solar systems as of now when they will all be carbon copy of another with no real features to distinguish them apart (because there are no game mechanics that can create any meaningful variety yet)?

More because of the modding side, its the part of the mod that takes the longest since you need to create a custom galaxy, so getting this early even with nothing new added would be great...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Temjin on October 07, 2012, 09:06:02 PM
I'm sick of reading the "no changes" updates, since it hides when there's something actually new and different. Maybe a lot of this should go to off-topic/suggestions/general discussion?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gabriel_Braun on October 08, 2012, 08:56:52 AM
Personaly the only thing im really looking forward to now is more then one solar system. Untill then, back burner ho?

Why would you want more solar systems as of now when they will all be carbon copy of another with no real features to distinguish them apart (because there are no game mechanics that can create any meaningful variety yet)?

More because of the modding side, its the part of the mod that takes the longest since you need to create a custom galaxy, so getting this early even with nothing new added would be great...

^^ This
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Catra on October 08, 2012, 12:00:40 PM
Personaly the only thing im really looking forward to now is more then one solar system. Untill then, back burner ho?

Why would you want more solar systems as of now when they will all be carbon copy of another with no real features to distinguish them apart (because there are no game mechanics that can create any meaningful variety yet)?

More because of the modding side, its the part of the mod that takes the longest since you need to create a custom galaxy, so getting this early even with nothing new added would be great...

^^ This

^^^ This


riot Alex plz!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Talkie Toaster on October 08, 2012, 03:27:08 PM
Personaly the only thing im really looking forward to now is more then one solar system. Untill then, back burner ho?

Why would you want more solar systems as of now when they will all be carbon copy of another with no real features to distinguish them apart (because there are no game mechanics that can create any meaningful variety yet)?

More because of the modding side, its the part of the mod that takes the longest since you need to create a custom galaxy, so getting this early even with nothing new added would be great...
More content that's playable and fun is going to be better for encouraging new buyers, to help keep the game funded, than content aimed at a minority of people who already have it. It's great Alex is so supportive of modding and mods are an excellent way of adding more play time, but mods (and total conversion mods, which are generally some of the less popular) shouldn't be prioritised over improving the actual *game*.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Catra on October 08, 2012, 11:56:53 PM
Personaly the only thing im really looking forward to now is more then one solar system. Untill then, back burner ho?

Why would you want more solar systems as of now when they will all be carbon copy of another with no real features to distinguish them apart (because there are no game mechanics that can create any meaningful variety yet)?

More because of the modding side, its the part of the mod that takes the longest since you need to create a custom galaxy, so getting this early even with nothing new added would be great...
More content that's playable and fun is going to be better for encouraging new buyers, to help keep the game funded, than content aimed at a minority of people who already have it. It's great Alex is so supportive of modding and mods are an excellent way of adding more play time, but mods (and total conversion mods, which are generally some of the less popular) shouldn't be prioritized over improving the actual *game*.

alex is going to have to tackle multi-system at some point, so i don't see how modders getting even a rudimentary implementation of multi-system travel equates to mods getting prioritization.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on October 09, 2012, 01:01:07 AM
i also think that more systems should be brought into the only AFTER having more than one system will have some meaning and purpose...
one think id like to see however is possibility to add custom/modders systems into the vanilla game/campaign....that should make the game last much longer and it should be much more interesting....
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gabriel_Braun on October 09, 2012, 04:16:54 AM
The biggest question I have about multi-system implementation is how extra-solar combat is (or isn't) going to work.  Personally I don't think ships should be capable of intercepting eachother during hyperspace (or warp, jump, transit, fried-egg, whatever speed) but the code required for ships to traverse multiple solar systems will be a bit more complicated than the spawn/waypoint system we have now and will also be a huge leap in modding potential.  I'm so supportive of the modding community because it acts like an unofficial extension of the development team in my own eyes;  I'm not suggesting the devs poach and steal code unrepentantly but some of the solutions the modding community come up with can provide avenues of investigation that the devs might not have come up with on their own.  In any event, while we remain in alpha there's a long, long road ahead to beta;  On the up-side, stardrive is out soon :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 09, 2012, 08:03:59 AM
While I appreciate the enthusiasm, all that asking when the patch will be out/patch notes will be updated/etc does is marginally increase my stress level :) You see, I actually love getting a new version out, or getting more info out about it - so I'm already working towards that as hard as I can!

That said, I'm hoping to be able to update the patch notes in several days time - the "bonus feature" seems to be shaping up nicely.



Edit: removed a few posts before things get out of hand. Let's keep it civil and on-topic.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gabriel_Braun on October 09, 2012, 08:20:00 AM
Sorry Alex!  ::)

I'll be patient now...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 09, 2012, 08:41:48 AM
the "bonus feature" seems to be shaping up nicely.


That's good to hear, would be a pity if you do all that fiddling and testing to arrive at the conclusion that it just doesn't work. Whatever "it" is.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on October 09, 2012, 10:28:53 AM
- the "bonus feature" seems to be shaping up nicely.

Did you really have to say that? >:( i dont mind surprises as long as i dont know about them but this? 8) Thats inhumane and cruel!  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 09, 2012, 10:46:21 AM
I probably shouldn't call it a bonus "feature". It is, however, a major update to something that I've wanted to update for quite a while :)

Yes, I know, more cruelty. The inhumanity of it!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DelicateTask on October 09, 2012, 11:00:40 AM
You are a contradictory tyrant. First you tell us not to be impatient, then you tell us that there's a super-secret that you're working on. How do you expect us to be patient now?!

 ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: naufrago on October 09, 2012, 11:03:33 AM
Well, I think it's time for rampant speculation on what this "bonus feature" is... hm....

The best I can come up with atm is there being more than one solar system and the ability to travel between them. That seems highly unlikely, so sufficiently rampant speculation, I feel.

More realistically, I'm going to guess the ability to perform missions for the different factions and the ability to improve relations with factions as a result. Just a few to start with, but progressively more as the updates continue over the months.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on October 09, 2012, 11:15:18 AM
I probably shouldn't call it a bonus "feature". It is, however, a major update to something that I've wanted to update for quite a while :)

Yes, I know, more cruelty. The inhumanity of it!
That however doesnt make it any less cruel  ;) good news though....its great to know how its shaping up
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gabriel_Braun on October 09, 2012, 11:35:19 AM
Rampant speculation time??  :o

Alex has beaten me to getting asteroid mining in-game!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 09, 2012, 11:35:54 AM
You are a contradictory tyrant. First you tell us not to be impatient, then you tell us that there's a super-secret that you're working on. How do you expect us to be patient now?!
That really made me laugh  :D


Ok, some wild guessing...mh, if Alex wanted to update it for  quite a while, it has to exist for some time, so maybe it's not campaign related.
Possibly it's the combat command interface? There were some hints that new orders are under consideration...

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gabriel_Braun on October 09, 2012, 12:10:46 PM
You are a contradictory tyrant. First you tell us not to be impatient, then you tell us that there's a super-secret that you're working on. How do you expect us to be patient now?!
That really made me laugh  :D


Ok, some wild guessing...mh, if Alex wanted to update it for  quite a while, it has to exist for some time, so maybe it's not campaign related.
Possibly it's the combat command interface? There were some hints that new orders are under consideration...



This can not be considered rampant speculation but an educated guess!!!    :P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hyph_K31 on October 09, 2012, 12:38:30 PM
Rampent speculation:

A tree! It's gonna be tree! A tree in space! It's gonna be a really big tree in space!

Serious:

I rather hope that the bonus is going to be more advanced waypoints, such that you can execute fancy military manoeuvres. I remember there being a screen shot showing something like that... in any case, that would be REALLY cool! I would finally be able to pincer my foes, and say mean things to them as I do it, insulting their brain capacity (personally I like mine deep fried). Although I'm not sure that's going to be it, I'd reckon it's going to have more to do with the campaign.

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: LazyWizard on October 09, 2012, 12:50:12 PM
Alex did mention a while back that the current faction system is only temporary, maybe that's what is being updated?

Rampent speculation:

A tree! It's gonna be tree! A tree in space! It's gonna be a really big tree in space!

New Feature: Yggdrasil.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 09, 2012, 12:57:06 PM
An update to something...second-in-command outcomes and battle glitches?  I always want to toss him out the airlock, but alas, he's not part of the crew. :)
Or is it...something else.  I remember a while back you said that, but I quit stalking your posts a while ago. ;D

EDIT:
Is it the windowed-mode mouse correction?  I find that very annoying.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: dogboy123 on October 09, 2012, 01:26:33 PM
Maybe it's gonna be a feature where we can accept missions, from tri-tach or hegemony, like: "kill this pirate for X mount of credits".
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on October 09, 2012, 01:43:17 PM
Or maybe it's better auto-battle resolve thingy  ::)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 09, 2012, 02:30:35 PM
Alex did mention a while back that the current faction system is only temporary, maybe that's what is being updated?


I thought about that too. Maybe, but I would guess that he wont redo that until he implements multiple systems, that will change it again anyway.

This can not be considered rampant speculation but an educated guess!!!    :P

It's all the same, I'm never right with this stuff anyway^^
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Blips on October 09, 2012, 05:27:19 PM
Alex told me what the bonus feature is.

It's ice cream. All new versions of the game come with ice cream in the mail. He's sorry for the mess.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DelicateTask on October 10, 2012, 03:31:25 AM
An update to something...second-in-command outcomes and battle glitches?  I always want to toss him out the airlock, but alas, he's not part of the crew. :)
I know that feeling.  ;)

But so far, I'm just chillin' and waiting to see what it is with my own eyes. And when I do, I'll probably need these: 8)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Leyammon on October 11, 2012, 07:16:11 AM
Would it be possible to allow the fighters to intercept incoming missiles... with themselves... Say if your flagship is one missile away from being disintegrated and that missile is on it's way but you're overloaded or something and if one of your fighter pilots has some sort of heroic personality he/she will fly directly into the path of the missile to stop you from blowing up... that would be beautiful  :'(
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 11, 2012, 11:25:09 AM
It's ice cream. All new versions of the game come with ice cream in the mail. He's sorry for the mess.

Lies. I'm unequivocally not sorry about it.

(Apologies to those looking at this post expecting an update! Soon, soon. (tm).)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on October 11, 2012, 12:14:03 PM
(Apologies to those looking at this post expecting an update! Soon, soon. (tm).)
and he continues to torment me....someone should arrest this man for his crimes against humanity ;D

good news then its soon :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Pentakill on October 11, 2012, 12:52:04 PM
"Log Date 10-11-2012"
"Pentakill, one of the last survivors"
"Low on food and water, all hope is almost lost, why has our god forsaken us, where is the update?!?!"
"We must not give up hope, I hear whispers at night"
"always the same..."
"sooooooon... sooooooooon.."
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on October 11, 2012, 01:15:59 PM
"Log Date 10-11-2012"
"Pentakill, one of the last survivors"
"Low on food and water, all hope is almost lost, why has our god forsaken us, where is the update?!?!"
"We must not give up hope, I hear whispers at night"
"always the same..."
"sooooooon... sooooooooon.."

tm
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: zakastra on October 11, 2012, 02:47:29 PM
Mr Owl...when is Alex going to update the notes...?

"It's Soo-oon, It's Soo-oon"
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gaizokubanou on October 11, 2012, 05:59:24 PM
At least I got X-Com to make this wait for this patch a lot more bearable.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 11, 2012, 07:33:21 PM
At least I got X-Com to make this wait for this patch a lot more bearable.

Yeah, those multi-million dollar studio titles are just good enough to bridge the gap to the next Starfarer update, right?^^
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on October 13, 2012, 09:40:37 AM
Radical guessing=
     Maybe it's 10 more factions  :P
Realistically maybe faction relations stuff?



( just bought the game, it's awesome!)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on October 13, 2012, 09:48:05 AM
Radical guessing=
     Maybe it's 10 more factions  :P
Realistically maybe faction relations stuff?



( just bought the game, it's awesome!)

Welcome to the forums!

o/
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on October 13, 2012, 09:59:03 AM
Thanks  :)

i really like the idea of fighters being independant. It improves there survivability alot and is rather cool looking.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 13, 2012, 01:03:08 PM
Patch notes updated.

Currently working on some specifics of the command points changes, and looking at improving ship behavior as it pertains to fulfilling their orders. Next notes update is likely to have the details of these changes.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on October 13, 2012, 01:07:04 PM
YES! I love you Alex!  *Proceeds to read patch notes*
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on October 13, 2012, 01:07:15 PM
Nice! That sounds amazing!  :D  Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JaytheJuggernaut on October 13, 2012, 01:08:25 PM
Looks amazing, as always. The assignment changes look awesome as well.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: neonesis on October 13, 2012, 01:09:54 PM
I really like the changes to the Command system - it was the one real thing I was annoyed by, especially when dealing with large number of fighters and bombers in my fleet. Keep it up Alex :>
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on October 13, 2012, 01:10:53 PM
So the control scheme is going more towards some kind of the current version and a standard RTS scheme?

Looks all good. Dosnt seem like there is to much work left on major features, so im hoping for a release soon!TM
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Acolnahuacatl on October 13, 2012, 01:16:46 PM
I'm so glad to see some RTS-style controls appear in the command UI again! I always missed that from 0.33. I agree that it did make you spend too much time controlling other ships, but I think that since then the UI has gone too far in the other direction, and assigning a specific ship to a specific task has been rather unwieldy.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 13, 2012, 01:20:01 PM
So the control scheme is going more towards some kind of the current version and a standard RTS scheme?

The general idea is: "keep the current control scheme, but if someone tries to use RTS controls, have it do something sensible". As opposed to doing nothing at all, which is a mite aggravating.

And, of course, to improve the current scheme, based on all the experience with it so far (which emphatically includes your guys' feedback). Having RTS inputs work also makes some things (such as the current "Assign Task...") a lot smoother. The "Assign Task..." button is completely gone now, by the way - entirely replaced by select + right click.


I'm so glad to see some RTS-style controls appear in the command UI again! I always missed that from 0.33. I agree that it did make you spend too much time controlling other ships, but I think that since then the UI has gone too far in the other direction, and assigning a specific ship to a specific task has been rather unwieldy.

Yeah... I think the trouble lay in completely going away from RTS-like input, rather than just RTS-like mechanics, if that makes any sense. Will have to see how it pans out, of course - there's still lots of playtesting and tweaking to do, but my initial impressions are very positive. If I do say so myself :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on October 13, 2012, 01:29:42 PM
Looks all good. Dosnt seem like there is to much work left on major features, so im hoping for a release soon!TM
Well he still has to tweak and play with the new control scheme, and we don't know if he's done with the campaign stuff. So I'd not get my hopes up for any time actually soon.  :)

At least a couple months more...  ;p
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on October 13, 2012, 01:32:34 PM
Looks all good. Dosnt seem like there is to much work left on major features, so im hoping for a release soon!TM
Well he still has to tweak and play with the new control scheme, and we don't know if he's done with the campaign stuff. So I'd not get my hopes up for any time actually soon.  :)

At least a couple months more...  ;p

MONTHS!? Damnit!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on October 13, 2012, 01:37:51 PM
MONTHS!? Damnit!
I was mostly kidding...   Every time I tell people not to rush Alex he says it is more ironic than anything else b/c I give too short a time frame, haha. So I am attempting to just say this all the time now.

ANYwho, back on topic: What are the current aptitudes? I can't find them in the original post.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 13, 2012, 01:39:19 PM
ANYwho, back on topic: What are the current aptitudes? I can't find them in the original post.

Combat, Leadership, Technology, Industry.

Industry currently doesn't have any skills - well, it sort of does, but they're under Technology for now, since there's too few to make it a worthwhile point investment.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 13, 2012, 01:43:17 PM
HEY, NEW PATCH NOTES!!!!:D

EDIT:
Hmm...maybe I should check the main page more often and not just the New bar. ;D Guess I missed a lot of conversation.
Anyways, changes to the command UI sound promising. :) No saying what'll happen when we get it, though.

And so, the command UI change was the big suprise?  Or are we all still waiting eagerly to unwrap it? :)

And I can see why Industry is a bit tough right now.  It'll come into play when faction politics and station invasions come in.  When those are in, I can see a motherlode of new skill for it. :)
For now, I can see a few skills, being "Metal Alloys" (Hardened Steel, provides a slight armor boost to all ships, maybe 5%), "Salvage" (Scavenger, get more weapons, supplies, and fuel after battle.  Maybe a slight boost to credits), and for the upfront stat increase, maybe sell for more and buy for less in the stations?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on October 13, 2012, 01:50:27 PM
Hrm, so combat bonus is attack damage? Aaaaand tech bonus is op limit?  :D  no.... what would tech give you.   Hrmm....
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 13, 2012, 01:53:43 PM
Hmm...maybe I should check the main page more often and not just the New bar. ;D

And so, the command UI change was the big suprise?  Or are we all still waiting eagerly to unwrap it? :)

Oops, updated the news too. Yep, this is the "bonus".

Hrm, so combat bonus is attack damage? Aaaaand tech bonus is op limit?  :D  no.... what would tech give you.   Hrmm....

Not bad, 2 for 2.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 13, 2012, 01:55:41 PM
Well, this is nice. Not much has happened to the command UI since the caveman days, now you're giving a little boost. :) I look forward to the character UI, I want my industry. >:D
(read my last post for a few suggestions, if you feel the need to)

EDIT:
Think the command UI deserves a blog post?  It's not much, but then again, it going to affect how I send out my bombers and fighters into a wall of flak, so yea. :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on October 13, 2012, 01:58:32 PM
Not bad, 2 for 2.
Booyeah! Let's hear it for wild speculation, haha.

Well I for one cannot wait to spec madly into technology and see what monstrosities I can make appear. :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 13, 2012, 02:01:29 PM
And good lord, thank you for the assignment change, "...ETA to the target" makes life so much easier. :) I found that it sometimes send a broadsword wing to intercept a talon while a thunder is right next to it.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 13, 2012, 02:07:16 PM
Think the command UI deserves a blog post?  It's not much, but then again, it going to affect how I send out my bombers and fighters into a wall of flak, so yea. :)

Yeah, I'm thinking about writing one about it. Also: disagree about it not being much :) It's an important aspect of the game, and it's getting a major usability upgrade - at least, so I dearly hope.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 13, 2012, 02:23:03 PM
For me, (I know this may sound very bad of a commander), I just send an intercept or engage for everything.  ;D  With this, I'll give it thought! :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on October 13, 2012, 02:32:14 PM
Control groups (Ctrl-1, etc), persistent between battles in the campaign

Awesome. Can these control groups be adjusted out-of-combat as well, or do you need to be in an engagement to change them? Does a control group have any affect on ship movement, positioning, and/or AI?

EDIT: Perhaps a little more clarity on my second question. If I have a few ships that belong to control group 1, will they stay near each other on their own and/or attack the same targets? Or is this purely a management change and has no affect on the AI?

Improved ship armor schematic graphics, especially for fighters (smoother, not pixelated)

Cool. It needed the visual upgrade. It was difficult to read. I'm hoping the combat UI will get a little more "sexy" before the full release.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Psycho Society on October 13, 2012, 02:32:46 PM
From what I understand this is merging the current assignment system with the old classic RTS style move order commands? So we can tell a battle group to go somewhere and they'll make an assignment for themselves. Should add a degree of flexibility to the game without making your ships dependent on micromanagement.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 13, 2012, 02:51:25 PM
Control groups (Ctrl-1, etc), persistent between battles in the campaign

Awesome. Can these control groups be adjusted out-of-combat as well, or do you need to be in an engagement to change them? Does a control group have any affect on ship movement, positioning, and/or AI?

EDIT: Perhaps a little more clarity on my second question. If I have a few ships that belong to control group 1, will they stay near each other on their own and/or attack the same targets? Or is this purely a management change and has no affect on the AI?

These can only be managed during combat, and are just a shortcut to selecting specific ships or groups of ships - no effect on the AI whatsoever.

But if, for example, you know you want a specific 3 fighter wings to escort your flagship, it'd be useful for that - just press the # and right-click the flagship.


From what I understand this is merging the current assignment system with the old classic RTS style move order commands?

Yeah - basically, issuing RTS-style orders will do sensible things within the current assignment system's framework. Which has also been revamped in terms of the details, but is still conceptually the same.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 13, 2012, 03:13:18 PM
Night has fallen...end of the new patch notes rave ;D for now, at least, wist we all go and defend our honorable, or not-so-honorable, names in Corvus. :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: intothewildblueyonder on October 13, 2012, 07:06:21 PM

Miscellaneous:
    Disabled ships repaired after battle now lose their hull mods and vents/capacitors

Why was this change made, what is its pupose?

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: K-64 on October 13, 2012, 07:18:22 PM
Likely to prevent exploits with OP bonuses with skills
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 13, 2012, 09:26:33 PM
Miscellaneous:
    Disabled ships repaired after battle now lose their hull mods and vents/capacitors

Why was this change made, what is its purpose?

Closing a loophole by which you could (unreliably, and causing other UI issues) get a hull mod you would otherwise not have access to.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Plasmatic on October 13, 2012, 11:02:59 PM
I know you usually don't give out ETA's, but do you have any feeling when this might be released? nothing accurate, just in the ballpark.. end of this month? mid-next month?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 14, 2012, 03:02:20 AM
The UI changes sound awesome, I cant wait to try it out ;D Actually, I've got a ton of questions about it, but I think I'll just wait till release.


I know you usually don't give out ETA's, but do you have any feeling when this might be released? nothing accurate, just in the ballpark.. end of this month? mid-next month?

Planning a Starfarer vacation?^^
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: rookie10276 on October 14, 2012, 06:37:43 AM
I know you usually don't give out ETA's, but do you have any feeling when this might be released? nothing accurate, just in the ballpark.. end of this month? mid-next month?

After now, before never.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DelicateTask on October 14, 2012, 06:49:09 AM
I know you usually don't give out ETA's, but do you have any feeling when this might be released? nothing accurate, just in the ballpark.. end of this month? mid-next month?
Planning a Starfarer vacation?^^
I would. I disappear from the face of the earth when an update comes out, and being able to plan for that would really help. ;)
But seriously, I wouldn't want to box Alex into a specific date. It's Done When It's Donetm.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on October 14, 2012, 07:04:40 AM
Oh, one more control group question if I may:

In control group 1 I have Talon wings A, B, & C. However, at the start of the engagement I can only deploy wings A & B. If I hit #1, is the game "smart" enough to select wings A & B for me, or is this only going to work with all three wings deployed? A little bit later, I get enough FP to deploy wing C. If I hit #1 when all three are deployed, does it still select all three wings, or only group A & B?

I remember some other RTS had this problem, but I can't remember which one.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 14, 2012, 08:02:43 AM
I know you usually don't give out ETA's, but do you have any feeling when this might be released? nothing accurate, just in the ballpark.. end of this month? mid-next month?

Sorry - there can be no chink in the soon(tm) armor :)


Oh, one more control group question if I may:

In control group 1 I have Talon wings A, B, & C. However, at the start of the engagement I can only deploy wings A & B. If I hit #1, is the game "smart" enough to select wings A & B for me, or is this only going to work with all three wings deployed? A little bit later, I get enough FP to deploy wing C. If I hit #1 when all three are deployed, does it still select all three wings, or only group A & B?

I remember some other RTS had this problem, but I can't remember which one.

It'll select wings A & B, and after you deploy wing C, pressing 1 will select all 3.

I know exactly what you're talking about, though also forget which game. When you selected the group, it also seemed to update it to only contain the units selected just then...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 14, 2012, 08:23:59 AM
Oh, Alex, did the front page change slightly?  I can see the "Upcoming Features" part now, where before this I couldn't (had to scroll down).
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 14, 2012, 08:29:55 AM
Not that I'm aware of, and looking at it, doesn't appear that it did.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: intothewildblueyonder on October 14, 2012, 09:29:14 AM

Sorry - there can be no chink in the soon(tm) armor :)

Well I've been playing Starfarer too long... The first thing that popped into my head when I read that was a though on how we need to stop using Kinetic comments and switch over to HE :)

and a Question:  Do groups get assigned together to an assignment and what happens if the group doesn't deploy all at once or becomes spread out? Is the eligibility of a group: counted according to group aptitude or by most apt ship(s) (same for all other  - eg strike, ETA)?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 14, 2012, 12:24:47 PM
and a Question:  Do groups get assigned together to an assignment and what happens if the group doesn't deploy all at once or becomes spread out? Is the eligibility of a group: counted according to group aptitude or by most apt ship(s) (same for all other  - eg strike, ETA)?

Re: groups -
These can only be managed during combat, and are just a shortcut to selecting specific ships or groups of ships - no effect on the AI whatsoever.

:)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 14, 2012, 12:41:21 PM

Sorry - there can be no chink in the soon(tm) armor :)

Well I've been playing Starfarer too long... The first thing that popped into my head when I read that was a though on how we need to stop using Kinetic comments and switch over to HE :)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img11/357/explosion2x.jpg) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH5Q6jbWIoQ&feature=related)

So, does this help? ; P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 14, 2012, 01:11:59 PM
Is it possible to assign a number of ships to escort another ship with one CP?  I see that the light escort command only allows for one ship/fighter wing to do that.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: intothewildblueyonder on October 14, 2012, 06:19:10 PM
I knew I read it somewhere :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on October 15, 2012, 07:07:18 AM
So im guessing with the skills there will now be "levels" aswell? If so, how do you earn these levels? Just by fighting? Id hope there are several ways to earn exp (Trading, helping ect.)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on October 15, 2012, 12:42:29 PM
So why have a ship completely stripped when it's repaired?  Does this apply to disabled ones or does this apply to ones that are your own ships that are repaired after battle?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 15, 2012, 12:43:43 PM
Repaired ones are probably not subject to that.  They're your ships after all, so they'll probably keep it.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on October 15, 2012, 01:00:02 PM
^^

Closing a loophole by which you could (unreliably, and causing other UI issues) get a hull mod you would otherwise not have access to.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 15, 2012, 01:01:42 PM
Yes, for captured ships.  Reshy is talking about a disabled ship that YOU repaired. :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on October 15, 2012, 01:07:59 PM
Does this apply to disabled ones or does this apply to ones that are your own ships that are repaired after battle?
Are they treated differently by the game? Kinda thought they were essentially the same.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on October 15, 2012, 02:40:08 PM
Ooh, patchnotes. I'm a little late to the party, huh?

I'm excited to try out the new UI for combat - I'm imagining a bunch of fun tricks I could pull off with the described system...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 15, 2012, 02:44:45 PM
Well, they are essentially the same, except that previously one belonged to the enemy and you may have had to expend marines to get it.  Both have low hull, damaged armor, and may or may not have weapons when you get it.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on October 16, 2012, 12:42:14 PM
Your own ships presumably have stats that you built specifically so I don't see how an exploit would play in unless I possess a critical misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on October 16, 2012, 12:54:18 PM
If you capture one that is not disabled, then it gets disabled?

No idea...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 16, 2012, 01:11:11 PM
Well, hmm.  Guess it still loses it's hull mods and vents/capasitors then.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Lordzias on October 18, 2012, 10:15:29 AM
Finally I'll able to give commands to a specific ship during battle. Cool beans.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on October 18, 2012, 10:34:29 AM
So I was wondering Alex, are you now pretty much completely rounding off the combat UI? As in we won't see any more edits or additions or...?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on October 18, 2012, 10:47:13 AM
Im still hoping he will add more ships later down the line.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 18, 2012, 12:02:05 PM
So I was wondering Alex, are you now pretty much completely rounding off the combat UI? As in we won't see any more edits or additions or...?

I sincerely hope so :) There'll probably be a few tweaks along the way, but this ought to be the final shape of it. Need to do a bit more playtesting, though - only added the "command frequency" bit (as mentioned in the new blog post) a few days ago.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on October 18, 2012, 12:07:54 PM
It's incredibly interesting, I must say. It certainly sounds good.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 18, 2012, 12:17:37 PM
HURRAH!
New blog post!  And thanks for updating the news AND in your post, I appreciate it. :)
Will read, I'll comment later.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on October 18, 2012, 12:21:35 PM
Woah, that looks swish.

Just one tiny concern on the command channel, couldn't it technically be abused by creating an order and then rescinding it in order to get the benefits of command channel? I also had this crazy thought that you'd be pretty stupid to not pause with the channel open, how do you circumvent that?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 18, 2012, 12:35:24 PM
Sounds great! Especially the command channel is interesting. I still got a bunch of questions, but let me just ask a comprehension question: e/ already answered

Quote
a click when the selection is empty creates a waypoint. Otherwise, it clears the selection.

Doesn't that mean that you can't create a waypoint while you got ships selected? I thought the whole point of the new concept is that you can make waypoints/assignments while you've got ships selected?


Just one tiny concern on the command channel, couldn't it technically be abused by creating an order and then rescinding it in order to get the benefits of command channel? I also had this crazy thought that you'd be pretty stupid to not pause with the channel open, how do you circumvent that?

To my understanding you have to spend a CP to open the channel, I doubt that it will be refunded once the channel is open.

And I think if you've got just a quick order or 2 to give there's no need to pause, otherwise you should. That's not much different now, I see no need for circumvention...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on October 18, 2012, 12:39:00 PM
This would be a blank waypoint, I think, with no assignment.

When you have people selected you right-click to create an assignment (with it's associated waypoint).
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Luringen on October 18, 2012, 12:54:33 PM
Sounds great! Especially the command channel is interesting. I still got a bunch of questions, but let me just ask a comprehension question:

Quote
a click when the selection is empty creates a waypoint. Otherwise, it clears the selection.

Doesn't that mean that you can't create a waypoint while you got ships selected? I thought the whole point of the new concept is that you can make waypoints/assignments while you've got ships selected?

Left clicking clears the selection or creates an unassigned waypoint. Right-clicking with ships selected give an order  ;)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 18, 2012, 12:57:51 PM
This would be a blank waypoint, I think, with no assignment.

When you have people selected you right-click to create an assignment (with it's associated waypoint).

Makes sense, thx.


By the way Alex, did this post (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=437.msg68544#msg68544) inspire you to create the command channel perchance? It reads a bit like a lore-prelude to only being able to open a channel for a few seconds.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on October 18, 2012, 12:58:22 PM
Yay new tutorial!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 18, 2012, 01:14:13 PM
By the way Alex, did this post (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=437.msg68544#msg68544) inspire you to create the command channel perchance? It reads a bit like a lore-prelude to only being able to open a channel for a few seconds.

Yes and no. I did read that post a while ago, and remember it, so it conceivably played a role. The motivation/lore justification is different, though.

Initially, the command channel mechanic wasn't there - instead, orders were free under a set of circumstances (such as: assigning to a refundable assignment, assigning after a ship was already assigned to that assignment via a direct order and the game hadn't been unpaused, and a few other cases). That worked fine mechanics-wise but actually conveying what's going on to the player was going to be an uphill battle. Enter a global "hey, you just spent a command point - stuff is now free for a while" counter.

As far as the lore/in-fiction justification, I think of it as calling a command conference among the captains. (Yeah, it's only a few game seconds, but combat time isn't the same as actual time.) There's only so many of these you can call before it becomes a fatal distraction, with better admirals being able to get more done.


I also had this crazy thought that you'd be pretty stupid to not pause with the channel open, how do you circumvent that?

Well, you're supposed/expected to pause when the channel is open - nothing to circumvent :) The timer is just there so you have a little more flexibility - accidentally hitting the spacebar won't waste the command point, and if you only have a few orders to give, you don't have to break the flow by pausing.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on October 20, 2012, 01:28:16 PM
So, any sound updates being worked on? Music? Sound Effects? I'm hoping the game will soon have some music to blow up baddies to.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hyph_K31 on October 20, 2012, 01:35:12 PM
Talking about the music, it seems to me that the combat music has gone, or is that just me?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Upgradecap on October 20, 2012, 03:42:38 PM
Talking about the music, it seems to me that the combat music has gone, or is that just me?

It couldn't have disappeared if there wasn't one to start with. Not in the core game, there wasn't. Mods have, though (some, atleast)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 21, 2012, 11:10:57 AM
So, any sound updates being worked on? Music? Sound Effects? I'm hoping the game will soon have some music to blow up baddies to.

Yes, actually. But, don't expect anything over-the-top - the combat track is ambient, rather than something designed to pump you up.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SQW on October 21, 2012, 06:12:19 PM
So, any sound updates being worked on? Music? Sound Effects? I'm hoping the game will soon have some music to blow up baddies to.

Yes, actually. But, don't expect anything over-the-top - the combat track is ambient, rather than something designed to pump you up.

Personally, after the first 20min of gameplay, I usually turn off in-game music. I know it's suppose to add to the atmosphere like in movies but game is a different medium. I really dislike the repetitive sound tracks (after +20hr of playing) and prefer the 'silence' that draws you in a little more into the game.

Anyone else play their favourite games with the music off?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cosmitz on October 21, 2012, 09:55:39 PM
I logged on the forum, somehow i understood that 0.54 launched, i went all the way to download the 53a from the main page, installed, and then realised and became sad. I want 0.54. :(
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: WarStalkeR on October 21, 2012, 10:37:52 PM
Alex, don't forget to give HP to normal projectiles :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Psycho Society on October 23, 2012, 12:23:44 PM
So, any sound updates being worked on? Music? Sound Effects? I'm hoping the game will soon have some music to blow up baddies to.

Yes, actually. But, don't expect anything over-the-top - the combat track is ambient, rather than something designed to pump you up.

Personally, after the first 20min of gameplay, I usually turn off in-game music. I know it's suppose to add to the atmosphere like in movies but game is a different medium. I really dislike the repetitive sound tracks (after +20hr of playing) and prefer the 'silence' that draws you in a little more into the game.

Anyone else play their favourite games with the music off?

I love having good music in game. To give you an example, I absolutely adore the music in Planetside. As epochal as Don Ferrone's orchestral compositions are, eventually I will be compelled to change it. It has nothing to do with the quality of the music, it just gets overplayed from substantial time playing the game.

That's not to say music isn't needed. Planetside wouldn't be any where as significant or memorable to me without Ferrone. The music defined that game as much as any other factor.

e: I usually play Starfarer with some radio on pandora. The Glitch Mob is a good station to try. I generally stay away from albums when playing games from the risk of association.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on October 23, 2012, 01:21:05 PM
I've heavily come now to having very particular games where the music never gets old - either from it just being that good (Halo) or for having some kind of mystical achievement sense to it (Kingdom Hearts). I've also come to now having played Split the Atom as an album so much for so many sci fi games it's weird to listen to out of 'context'. That said, Split the Atom is a heavily Sci Fi based album, but still.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 23, 2012, 01:26:45 PM

I generally stay away from albums when playing games from the risk of association.

Oh god, where have you been with that warning 10 years ago? I still friggin dream of playing Morrowind (you know, levitation spell) with Nightwishes walking in the air (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okItHetxgy8), and I don't even like band that much anymore.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: zakastra on October 23, 2012, 02:06:08 PM
Yeah Alisha's Attic and the original Command and Conquer are inextricably linked, as are the All Saints and (god forgive me) FFVII (back when I had to play it a friends house)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 23, 2012, 02:14:44 PM
Oh god, where have you been with that warning 10 years ago? I still friggin dream of playing Morrowind (you know, levitation spell) with Nightwishes walking in the air (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okItHetxgy8), and I don't even like band that much anymore.

Odd fact: listening to Nightwish right now. But yeah, I can't hear "Jamie's Got a Gun" w/o linking it with HoMM3 - and all I did was leave it on repeat a few times, oh, what is it, 10+ years ago now? The mind is a terrible thing.


A bit more on topic: hoping to update the notes in the near future :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Blips on October 23, 2012, 03:17:36 PM
A bit more on topic: hoping to update the notes in the near future :)

What a tease.  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DelicateTask on October 23, 2012, 03:54:58 PM
A good example of music done right would be FTL. The music is catchy, but doesn't get old quick. Having an ambient and battle variation for each song gives more variation and dynamics, and each sector and species has its own theme. I like the idea of thematic music, because you associate certain styles of music with certain events or enemies you encounter.

While I would love to see something similar done in Starfarer, I realize that the darker mood of the game works best with ambient music providing a backdrop. Sometimes I'll play the Amnesia soundtrack in the background, because it's ambient and unsettling and really accentuates the loneliness of space.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 23, 2012, 05:28:44 PM
Updated.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 23, 2012, 05:45:42 PM
:D
Yay!  Lemme read 'em!

EDIT:
THANK THE LORD!!!
That fighter UI bug on the command UI really bugged the hell outta me.  Thanks for fixing it! :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 23, 2012, 05:53:08 PM
Quote
Control/Capture: Automatically updated to call in comparable forces to match what the enemy has in the area.

This is great! This and the AI improvements. I was just today writing in the manual how the AI is smart and the player should trust it and not give to many commands (after watching the old totalbiscuit video again). This really makes it easier to believe myself ;D


On second glance: Some kind of avoid order is noticeably absent?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 23, 2012, 06:31:21 PM
On second glance: Some kind of avoid order is noticeably absent?

Hmm - let me give that a bit of thought. I'm not sure how useful that would be, since it seems like you only want certain ships to avoid certain other ships, and it gets to be a mess. I may give a global "avoid" order a try, though - or, perhaps, an "avoid it if you're smaller". What I don't want to end up with is multiple flavors of "avoid" orders. I also don't want to go down the road of multiple assignments on the same target, and some flavors of "avoid" may point in that direction.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 23, 2012, 06:33:46 PM
"avoid if you're smaller" sounds best.  A lone fighter/bomber wing  or a frigate won't stand much chance against a cruiser or a capital ship.

And "Rally Task Force" command, can you get it to rally a control group to it?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 23, 2012, 06:55:40 PM
"avoid if you're smaller" sounds best.  A lone fighter/bomber wing  or a frigate won't stand much chance against a cruiser or a capital ship.

Yeah... my concern there is it might be natural to want to combine that with an "engage" order, to get an "engage with only equal-sized or larger ships". And you won't be able to do it. Although, if you wanted that, you could actually create the avoid order, and then manually assign ships you want to engage the target to it, as counter-intuitive as that sounds :) Ships not assigned would still avoid the target. Hmm. Need to give it more thought/try it out.

And "Rally Task Force" command, can you get it to rally a control group to it?

Yeah, sure. "Rally Task Force" won't get any ships assigned to it by default, but only takes stuff assigned to it via right-click. "Rally Task Force" is also what gets created most of the time when you have multiple ships selected and right-click on empty space. (Exceptions are things like: you only have bombers selected, so it creates "Rally Strike Force", and a few others.)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sunfire on October 23, 2012, 07:10:16 PM
Oh god, where have you been with that warning 10 years ago? I still friggin dream of playing Morrowind (you know, levitation spell) with Nightwishes walking in the air (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okItHetxgy8), and I don't even like band that much anymore.

Odd fact: listening to Nightwish right now. But yeah, I can't hear "Jamie's Got a Gun" w/o linking it with HoMM3 - and all I did was leave it on repeat a few times, oh, what is it, 10+ years ago now? The mind is a terrible thing.


A bit more on topic: hoping to update the notes in the near future :)

I listen to Nightwish sometimes when I play too! Alex and me have something in common! My life is complete!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 23, 2012, 07:13:44 PM
Hmm - let me give that a bit of thought. I'm not sure how useful that would be, since it seems like you only want certain ships to avoid certain other ships, and it gets to be a mess. I may give a global "avoid" order a try, though - or, perhaps, an "avoid it if you're smaller". What I don't want to end up with is multiple flavors of "avoid" orders. I also don't want to go down the road of multiple assignments on the same target, and some flavors of "avoid" may point in that direction.

Two scenarios spring to mind in which I'd want an avoid order.

A) A big, slow target and multiple smaller target are on the field. I want my ships to avoid the big one and kill the small ones to gang up on the big at the end.

B) A enemy is fleeing and one of my ships is in pursuit. I put avoid on the enemy to make my ship stay in combat.

In both cases a global avoid command would be better than "avoid if smaller". In A) One of my ships might match the big target, engage it, and delay the destruction of the small stuff. In B) my pursuing ship is probably not smaller anyway.


 Hmm...How about "avoid if you are not vastly superior"? That would have the intended outcome in case A) and B). And it would eschew strange issues where a battleships tries to avoid a destroyer.

I'm not sure how aware ships of are of their allies, but if they could notice when they are "vastly superior" as a group scenario A) might even play out without the need to revoke the avoid order at the end.

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on October 23, 2012, 07:29:15 PM
Very excited about the patch notes!

Couple of questions about what to expect, just Feature Request stuff I'm hoping to see:

1.  Will Greeble Objects make this round?
2.  What, if anything, can we expect in terms of Stations?  Will we be able to give them custom graphics or have any scripting we can hook into to build basic interactivity (rumors and the like for now, missions later)?  This is one of the areas I'm really looking forward to, since it's a big step forwards for the RPG side of the game, and I'm itching to be able to be able to enhance and extend whatever's in place.
3.  Are we going to be able to script the Missions used for the default campaign battles yet?
4.  What are your current thoughts, if any, for script events attached to weapon hits (basically allowing us to script really interesting weapons, given the changes in MutableValues I see in the changelog)?

Anyhow, sorry if all this is currently out of scope, I thought I'd ask and see if any of this stuff will make the current round.  I really like what I'm seeing here and I'm eagerly awaiting the next release :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 23, 2012, 07:39:55 PM
Spoiler
Two scenarios spring to mind in which I'd want an avoid order.

A) A big, slow target and multiple smaller target are on the field. I want my ships to avoid the big one and kill the small ones to gang up on the big at the end.

B) A enemy is fleeing and one of my ships is in pursuit. I put avoid on the enemy to make my ship stay in combat.

In both cases a global avoid command would be better than "avoid if smaller". In A) One of my ships might match the big target, engage it, and delay the destruction of the small stuff. In B) my pursuing ship is probably not smaller anyway.


 Hmm...How about "avoid if you are not vastly superior"? That would have the intended outcome in case A) and B). And it would eschew strange issues where a battleships tries to avoid a destroyer.

I'm not sure how aware ships of are of their allies, but if they could notice when they are "vastly superior" as a group scenario A) might even play out without the need to revoke the avoid order at the end.

[close]

Thanks for breaking those down - I wasn't thinking of B) at all, but that's a really good point.

"Vastly superior" is problematic for the AI to establish. How many frigates do you need before you're "vastly superior" to a Paragon? Seems like the kind of call best left to the player - it's hard for me to imagine getting it right often enough, especially when the penalty for getting it wrong is about as bad as it gets - dead ships.

B) could actually be mostly resolved with an AI tweak - don't chase a retreating ship if you're both out of weapon range by some margin and also slower.

A combination of "avoid if <not bigger | smaller | something else along those lines>" and the above AI tweak might be a good place to start. That, combined with direct-assignment to the avoid task acting like engage/strike, should give the right amount of tactical flexibility. I think. Going to give it a try and see how it works out - no promises, as usual :) I can see giving it a try and ditching the idea altogether for one reason or another.


@xenoargh:
Pardon the short-ish answer, but I'm about to go to bed here :)

1: A distant possibility.
2: Probably not - how they work is not "final" in my mind, so I don't see making them more moddable before firming that up.
3: See #1.
4: The usual "nothing in vanilla uses it, so it'd probably be extremely buggy, and would lack UI support to tell the player what's going on". Which isn't a definite "no", it's just a "it'd take significantly more effort".

Overall, I just haven't had a chance to do a "moddability pass" during this cycle. I may yet get the opportunity (this usually happens when I'm waiting for some art or sound assets, but the functionality is already done), but it doesn't appear too likely. We'll see, though.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on October 23, 2012, 08:07:38 PM
Well, thought I'd ask; a lot of stuff I'd like to do requires 3 and 4, as my mod's mainly about playing around with combat mechanics in odd ways.  1's useful for a lot of stuff, 2's a big deal, no sense rushing it, 3 and 4 are pretty important if mods are ever going to go beyond window dressing Vanilla, especially 3 :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 23, 2012, 08:16:18 PM
Good morning!
I'm sure you know, but just because I want to make sure to never see a Talon wing chasing another Talon wing pointlessly across the map:

don't chase a retreating ship if you're both out of weapon range by some margin and also slower or of equal speed

Accepting everything else, hope avoid makes it, looking forward to the update :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Psycho Society on October 23, 2012, 09:47:18 PM
Love the aggressive AI. Love everything about the update. Excited to hear what Stian's got lined up for us.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on October 23, 2012, 10:11:10 PM
Quote
...
Control/Capture: Automatically updated to call in comparable forces to match what the enemy has in the area.
...

Oh wow! That is going to cut down on my micro significantly, and hopefully stop the AI from feeding itself piece by piece into death-swarms. Nice!

I am very much in favor of a Universal avoid command. Its simple and cases that might also lead to significant micro (e.g. when the player wants say all ships destroyer and up to still engage via direct orders) are pretty well handled by the control groups. A "scouts avoid" that just makes fighters and frigates (not bombers?) avoid the target would take care of the fast ships attacking (and being killed by) capital ships but wouldn't be able to handle Gothar's point A, so I don't think it would be good.

It might be a bit extreme, but maybe just have non-strike fighters and frigates automatically avoid all capital ships unless under a direct order or escorting another ship? Often times a frigate or fighter will route itself next to an enemy capital ship to get to a far away objective and get promptly get mauled.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: intothewildblueyonder on October 23, 2012, 10:18:45 PM
A few thoughts on gothars retreating ship scenario

If a ship is chasing down a retreating ship it will need to be able to stop the ship before it flees combat and then enable its destruction. This isn't always obvious;

because of the limited 1)window of opportunity to 2)deal sufficient damage to a ship before it retreats, (or a retreating ship must not have health > dps*fire-time: where dps is amount of damage hitting  retreating ship from all sources )
lets look at  few scenarios
A ship may be faster than another ship but only catch up to it for an instant before it retreats
A ship could catch up to but not stop a retreating ship because it cannot enable this damage
      - either because it must slow down
     - it doesn't have the sufficient firepower to destroy the ship in this time frame
A ship could however force ship to slow/stop down (force shield raise, flux, own ship systems, engines, flank) and can create higher dps by adding more actual damage(itself (eg more weapons) or other ship (eg they can catch up))  or time

My point is that it will not be so simple to determine when a ship can know when it can disable a ship before it retreats (although it does a reasonable job at forcing ships to engage). Conversely how much of this knowledge should be given to the retreating ship (here's a weird scenario - because a ship know it cannot be caught and will therefore not be chased, will it stick around :P)

Hopefully this made some sense
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Morrokain on October 23, 2012, 10:19:29 PM
Oh god, where have you been with that warning 10 years ago? I still friggin dream of playing Morrowind (you know, levitation spell) with Nightwishes walking in the air (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okItHetxgy8), and I don't even like band that much anymore.

Odd fact: listening to Nightwish right now. But yeah, I can't hear "Jamie's Got a Gun" w/o linking it with HoMM3 - and all I did was leave it on repeat a few times, oh, what is it, 10+ years ago now? The mind is a terrible thing.


A bit more on topic: hoping to update the notes in the near future :)



I listen to Nightwish sometimes when I play too! Alex and me have something in common! My life is complete!
Ok this is just bizzare. I actually have listened to and "discovered" Nightwish (had heard of it but never really listened to it) while modding this game... so its pretty much been the only thing I've been listening to while modding.

Bought Imaginaerum a week or so ago actually.

Haha too funny.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Morrokain on October 23, 2012, 10:22:08 PM
Oh and very excited for the UI and AI updates this coming patch!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: intothewildblueyonder on October 23, 2012, 10:30:04 PM
Regarding the change in command capture
 
There is a certain advantage in having a single ship preventing/slowing the capture of a point without being able to capture it itself. This allow you to have a sort of space-denial doctrine, using a  small force to both entangle enemy ships in a pointless combat and slow there gain of an asset , with a small chance of actually taking the point. Will this be possible post patch (/can the harass order be applied to a capture point)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on October 24, 2012, 01:17:01 AM
Quote
Engage: bombers and support fighters assigned to engage a target will behave as if on a strike assignment - i.e, make a concerted effort at an attack run without getting distracted.
Let say i have selected 2 fighters wing and 3 bombers (and let's say that fighters are faster then bombers) wing and give them orders to ENGAGE Enforcer. Will they stick together until bombers drop they payload on Enforcer or will fighters go ahead and engage it sooner then bombers. Will they come back together to carrier for bomber resupply and then go again together on Enforcer?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 24, 2012, 03:49:43 AM
chasing ships is complicated

It's even more complicated, because there could be enemy or friendly ships on the escape route that modify the possible outcome positive or negative. That's why I think in this case it's better to keep to simple rules that the player can comprehend and let him/her then make the difficult decisions. Besides, only damaging a fleeing ship is sometimes good enough, too.


There is a certain advantage in having a single ship preventing/slowing the capture of a point without being able to capture it itself. This allow you to have a sort of space-denial doctrine, using a  small force to both entangle enemy ships in a pointless combat and slow there gain of an asset , with a small chance of actually taking the point. Will this be possible post patch (/can the harass order be applied to a capture point)

To my understanding you can just manually assign a single ship that you selected and others will not interfere.

It might be a bit extreme, but maybe just have non-strike fighters and frigates automatically avoid all capital ships unless under a direct order or escorting another ship? Often times a frigate or fighter will route itself next to an enemy capital ship to get to a far away objective and get promptly get mauled.

I like this, it could be combined with a switch under "standing orders" for desperate times. Although I would not want to miss  a direct avoid command for this, and both would clash with Alex "no multiple flavors" policy. But only a bit. Mini-Clash. Micro-Clash. :-*
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sunfire on October 24, 2012, 06:48:18 AM
Hmm - let me give that a bit of thought. I'm not sure how useful that would be, since it seems like you only want certain ships to avoid certain other ships, and it gets to be a mess. I may give a global "avoid" order a try, though - or, perhaps, an "avoid it if you're smaller". What I don't want to end up with is multiple flavors of "avoid" orders. I also don't want to go down the road of multiple assignments on the same target, and some flavors of "avoid" may point in that direction.

Two scenarios spring to mind in which I'd want an avoid order.

A) A big, slow target and multiple smaller target are on the field. I want my ships to avoid the big one and kill the small ones to gang up on the big at the end.

B) A enemy is fleeing and one of my ships is in pursuit. I put avoid on the enemy to make my ship stay in combat.

In both cases a global avoid command would be better than "avoid if smaller". In A) One of my ships might match the big target, engage it, and delay the destruction of the small stuff. In B) my pursuing ship is probably not smaller anyway.


 Hmm...How about "avoid if you are not vastly superior"? That would have the intended outcome in case A) and B). And it would eschew strange issues where a battleships tries to avoid a destroyer.

I'm not sure how aware ships of are of their allies, but if they could notice when they are "vastly superior" as a group scenario A) might even play out without the need to revoke the avoid order at the end.



Also, if I am flying a capital or a cruiser and I want to go up against another of the same size, but I dont want my frigates getting involved, I would like to be able to place an avoid command. However, the strike command should override the avoid command for bombers only, not sure how that would work, but it would be sweet to be able to have all your ships but you avoid a large ship, and then have your bombers come swooping in to obliterate the large ship!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gaizokubanou on October 24, 2012, 06:49:07 AM
Question on the new control/capture...

Say there are two nodes, A and B.  Me and the AI has roughly equivalent size fleet.

I order control/capture on A, assault on B.

AI orders assault on A, nothing on B (unlikely, I know, but for sake of this theorycraft bear with me please).

What will happen here?  Will my fleet AI split my forces evenly between A and B (basically treat large enemy concentration on A as an assault order)?  Or will it actually send more units to A, 'overriding' the assault order in order to match the AI's fleet on A?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 24, 2012, 10:12:29 AM
There is a certain advantage in having a single ship preventing/slowing the capture of a point without being able to capture it itself. This allow you to have a sort of space-denial doctrine, using a  small force to both entangle enemy ships in a pointless combat and slow there gain of an asset , with a small chance of actually taking the point. Will this be possible post patch (/can the harass order be applied to a capture point)

You can create a "Rally Task Force" there and assign whatever you like to it.

Let say i have selected 2 fighters wing and 3 bombers (and let's say that fighters are faster then bombers) wing and give them orders to ENGAGE Enforcer. Will they stick together until bombers drop they payload on Enforcer or will fighters go ahead and engage it sooner then bombers. Will they come back together to carrier for bomber resupply and then go again together on Enforcer?

No and no. If you want that, assign them to escort the bombers - that's what escort is for.

That reminds me, I need to take a look at how escort works when the target wings lands on a carrier. Ideally, escorts would keep hovering around the carrier, and then pick up where they left off when the wing takes off.

Say there are two nodes, A and B.  Me and the AI has roughly equivalent size fleet.

I order control/capture on A, assault on B.

AI orders assault on A, nothing on B (unlikely, I know, but for sake of this theorycraft bear with me please).

What will happen here?  Will my fleet AI split my forces evenly between A and B (basically treat large enemy concentration on A as an assault order)?  Or will it actually send more units to A, 'overriding' the assault order in order to match the AI's fleet on A?

It'll split your forces roughly evenly. If you want full flexibility, you can assign "Capture" to both. "Assault" is actually less universally useful now - oftentimes, a few capture/control assignments are enough to get the job done.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on October 24, 2012, 01:02:49 PM
We can give escort commands to entire group or just to specific ship? So can i have group A and give it escort group B?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 24, 2012, 01:10:47 PM
I don't think so.  Having one control group escort another would be a mind fart for the AI, which ships to escort which ships?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on October 24, 2012, 01:28:10 PM
Can engage be made to focus on a specific ship rather than trying to attack everything nearby?


Also can we get a command that tells a ship to back-off without retreating?  Or some of the commands from my topic about it?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 24, 2012, 03:26:19 PM
Umm...doesn't Engage already do that? ???
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 24, 2012, 04:28:04 PM
By the way Alex, since you are working on the combat UI:
Did you consider showing the players destroyed ships in some way? I made a suggestion (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4456.0) about that some time ago, would be useful.

Another piece of important UI information that I feel is still missing is a "disabled" status indicator for weapons. Could maybe go in the "in range" field.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 25, 2012, 01:00:28 PM
We can give escort commands to entire group or just to specific ship? So can i have group A and give it escort group B?

No - you have to specify a target.

Can engage be made to focus on a specific ship rather than trying to attack everything nearby?

That's how "intercept" works now. Still testing it out, will have more details later.

By the way Alex, since you are working on the combat UI:

Ah, but I'm not :) (command, not combat)

Let's not turn this thread into request-a-feature - that's what the suggestions forum is for.


Re: Avoid -
I gave it a try, but it's not going to happen. It's troublesome because of the repercussions it has on the rest of the AI - you can't just handle it in a general way. Even something as basic as "ok, now I'm strafing to get behind an enemy/avoid a missile/etc" would have to be aware of what the ship is ordered to avoid, and somehow intelligently resolve the conflicts that will present. I.E., "avoid" tells you to go in one  direction, tactical situation makes going in the opposite direction preferable, etc. Not exactly impossible, but a big effort, and a high likelihood of making the AI perform poorly in hard-to-reproduce situations.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 25, 2012, 01:10:50 PM
How you tried to say to the AI just stay out of the enemy's weapon ranges?  Excluding the TL and Philum missiles, anything that's a fire support weapon. That way it might be able to pay attention to combat while staying away, maybe?

(I know nothing of java or how to code it, aside from modding.  Just a friendly suggestion to fix that problem is all)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 25, 2012, 01:20:29 PM
Re: Avoid -
I gave it a try, but it's not going to happen.

Pity. But at least the improved chasing AI sprung from the discussion:)

Did you consider Thaagos idea that small ships should generally not attack capitals unless ordered? To just not actively engage would probably be easier to implement than active avoidance.

Ah, but I'm not :) (command, not combat)

Sure, I just thought I should mention it while you were tweaking on the deployment dialog timing (patch notes), In case it's nearby. It is probably not, though *shrug*
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Morrokain on October 25, 2012, 01:24:42 PM
How you tried to say to the AI just stay out of the enemy's weapon ranges?  Excluding the TL and Philum missiles, anything that's a fire support weapon. That way it might be able to pay attention to combat while staying away, maybe?

(I know nothing of java or how to code it, aside from modding.  Just a friendly suggestion to fix that problem is all)

I think that was what he was trying to do, but the problem comes when the A.I is put between a rock and a hard place as it were. If the ship is avoiding the weapons of another ship but its trajectory of escape from those weapons puts it in the path of an oncoming heavy missile, the A.I has a conflict of interest and needs to be coded to somehow resolve the situation based on the least dangerous of the two. I have a feeling thats pretty hard to pull off in all situations. So the likely-hood is that said frigate will slam right into 3 pilums or a reaper just to avoid an Onslaught's MarkVIs.

That's what I'm getting anyway I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on October 25, 2012, 01:28:45 PM
Avoid the ship that has the order on it.  And order's an order. :) There's side effects to most of the other orders as well.  Anything sent to intercept another ship will generally avoid anything but it's target, same as engage.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Psiyon on October 25, 2012, 08:57:58 PM
Forgive me if this has been asked before, but in regards to modding, would there be a way to make a hullmod that, when active on a ship, affects a character's stats? i.e., putting a sensor array hullmod on a ship that increases your max fleet points by 10, or putting some fire-control module on a ship that increases your fleet's accuracy.

Or, better yet, would it be possible to do a similar thing with ship systems, in the sense of certain ships giving fleet-wide bonuses? Hmm, though, come to think of it, I don't think there's a way to do always-active ship systems, so that might not work all that well for what I want it to be used for.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on October 26, 2012, 02:56:16 AM
Forgive me if this has been asked before, but in regards to modding, would there be a way to make a hullmod that, when active on a ship, affects a character's stats? i.e., putting a sensor array hullmod on a ship that increases your max fleet points by 10, or putting some fire-control module on a ship that increases your fleet's accuracy.

Or, better yet, would it be possible to do a similar thing with ship systems, in the sense of certain ships giving fleet-wide bonuses? Hmm, though, come to think of it, I don't think there's a way to do always-active ship systems, so that might not work all that well for what I want it to be used for.

Do you mean like networking sensor packages in ships together or creating a bespoke encrypted channel on the ship? That'd be pretty cool, and it'd certainly buff up carriers from being respawn points for fighters...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on October 26, 2012, 03:43:26 AM
Ok, this is a bit presumptuous considering I was the one it was said to, but as Alex said:
Let's not turn this thread into request-a-feature - that's what the suggestions forum is for.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Psiyon on October 26, 2012, 07:05:40 AM
Ok, this is a bit presumptuous considering I was the one it was said to, but as Alex said:
Let's not turn this thread into request-a-feature - that's what the suggestions forum is for.
I'm not requesting a feature--I'm inquiring about the modding capabilities of this upcoming update.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DelicateTask on October 26, 2012, 07:18:31 AM
It really looks like your posts either belong in Modding (asking if and how) or Suggestions (asking for the possibility to be added). You didn't mention anything about the update, you just asked if something could be done. Gothars is right.
And so I don't come across as confrontational, have a smiley. ;)

Also, it occurred to me that I should attempt to stay on-topic, so here:
I'm going to miss the "performance metrics" which I assume are FPS and CPU measurements. Sure, I always use devmode nowadays, but even in normal mode I always liked being able to look at my frames per second to see how well my computer was handling everything.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 26, 2012, 09:44:48 AM
Forgive me if this has been asked before, but in regards to modding, would there be a way to make a hullmod that, when active on a ship, affects a character's stats? i.e., putting a sensor array hullmod on a ship that increases your max fleet points by 10, or putting some fire-control module on a ship that increases your fleet's accuracy.

Or, better yet, would it be possible to do a similar thing with ship systems, in the sense of certain ships giving fleet-wide bonuses? Hmm, though, come to think of it, I don't think there's a way to do always-active ship systems, so that might not work all that well for what I want it to be used for.

(On the balance, that probably does belong in the modding section, but hey).

Hmm. As far as modifying character skills, I was thinking of maybe having items be able to do that, down the line. I don't like the idea of having hullmods do this, because then you have incentive to toggle between a "combat" loadout and a "non-combat" one (assuming some of these modified non-combat skills). Yeah, there's a refit time - added specifically as a deterrent for this type of thing - so it might work but... I don't know. Bears some thought - I just don't want to end up with a situation where you're parked in orbit around a planet for a few days while hullmods optimizing trade get welded onto your hull, before you go and sell stuff.

As far as fleetwide bonuses, probably not - not  because of anything I inherently don't like about the idea, but because combat has to actually become finished at some point :)


Also, it occurred to me that I should attempt to stay on-topic, so here:
I'm going to miss the "performance metrics" which I assume are FPS and CPU measurements. Sure, I always use devmode nowadays, but even in normal mode I always liked being able to look at my frames per second to see how well my computer was handling everything.

That's still there, actually. That change is referring to the whole lot of performance data it dumps into the log file every time you exit the game.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Psiyon on October 26, 2012, 11:24:59 AM
Hmm. As far as modifying character skills, I was thinking of maybe having items be able to do that, down the line. I don't like the idea of having hullmods do this, because then you have incentive to toggle between a "combat" loadout and a "non-combat" one (assuming some of these modified non-combat skills). Yeah, there's a refit time - added specifically as a deterrent for this type of thing - so it might work but... I don't know. Bears some thought - I just don't want to end up with a situation where you're parked in orbit around a planet for a few days while hullmods optimizing trade get welded onto your hull, before you go and sell stuff.

As far as fleetwide bonuses, probably not - not  because of anything I inherently don't like about the idea, but because combat has to actually become finished at some point :)
Ah, okay. I was simply curious if you could do stuff with MutableCharacterStatsAPI inside of hullmod .java files, not suggesting the functionality be given official support.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 26, 2012, 11:34:14 AM
Ah, I see - I think you could. Hadn't occurred to me, but there's no reason I can think of you wouldn't be able to do it. Getting it to work well/right may be another matter.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: intothewildblueyonder on October 26, 2012, 12:39:59 PM
Well you could have a universal slow by having a weapon that fire in all directions and have a high impact value
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DelicateTask on October 26, 2012, 02:07:39 PM
Also, it occurred to me that I should attempt to stay on-topic, so here:
I'm going to miss the "performance metrics" which I assume are FPS and CPU measurements. Sure, I always use devmode nowadays, but even in normal mode I always liked being able to look at my frames per second to see how well my computer was handling everything.
That's still there, actually. That change is referring to the whole lot of performance data it dumps into the log file every time you exit the game.
Oh, good. I'm glad I was wrong. :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on October 28, 2012, 10:31:34 AM
How's development going?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: intothewildblueyonder on October 28, 2012, 11:18:44 AM
How's development going?

Excellent News!

The release is right on schedule, perhaps even ahead, and the release WILL be on Soontm*

*Soontm is defined by the intergalactic standard of chronology**

**any complaints about this release date will be gladly taken in the Hegemony complaints division in airlock 5b-L-617 aft (please wait for room to seal for privacy, the yellow flashing lights will indicate this has occurred, and then take the assurances of VacuumSound (R)- "Because in space no one can violate your right to privacy" [please be sure to fill out a form afterwords if you have any complaints

Have a wonderful cycle :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on October 28, 2012, 11:27:50 AM
And here I thought there was going to be some relevant posts when I saw that this thread had been updated. Bummer.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Movementcat on October 29, 2012, 11:32:27 PM
I dying from waiting please release that Awesome Patch :-) or atleast tell us the release time :-)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xanderh on October 30, 2012, 12:27:45 AM
I dying from waiting please release that Awesome Patch :-) or atleast tell us the release time :-)
That's generally a bad idea.
The patch isn't ready to be released, so he shouldn't release it. We'd just get disappointed.
And he should not give a release time, ever. He doesn't know when it's done. If it gets finished before the release date, he'll either have to keep it, which he doesn't like, or have to release it before time. If he releases it before time, why would he even give a date for it to be released? And if it isn't ready when he said he would release it, he'd either have to release something unfinished and buggy, or disappoint us by delaying it.

So, unless it gets finished on the exact day he says it will, people will get disappointed. Which is why he hasn't given a release day for any patch so far, and hopefully never will.


And if you just want a ballpark figure, here's one. Before August. August 2013, that is.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on October 30, 2012, 12:57:50 AM
I dying from waiting please release that Awesome Patch :-) or atleast tell us the release time :-)
That's generally a bad idea.
The patch isn't ready to be released, so he shouldn't release it. We'd just get disappointed.
And he should not give a release time, ever. He doesn't know when it's done. If it gets finished before the release date, he'll either have to keep it, which he doesn't like, or have to release it before time. If he releases it before time, why would he even give a date for it to be released? And if it isn't ready when he said he would release it, he'd either have to release something unfinished and buggy, or disappoint us by delaying it.

So, unless it gets finished on the exact day he says it will, people will get disappointed. Which is why he hasn't given a release day for any patch so far, and hopefully never will.


And if you just want a ballpark figure, here's one. Before August. August 2013, that is.
[/quote

^^
This needs go be plastered on the screen every time you enter this forum.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xanderh on October 30, 2012, 05:16:20 AM
I dying from waiting please release that Awesome Patch :-) or atleast tell us the release time :-)
That's generally a bad idea.
The patch isn't ready to be released, so he shouldn't release it. We'd just get disappointed.
And he should not give a release time, ever. He doesn't know when it's done. If it gets finished before the release date, he'll either have to keep it, which he doesn't like, or have to release it before time. If he releases it before time, why would he even give a date for it to be released? And if it isn't ready when he said he would release it, he'd either have to release something unfinished and buggy, or disappoint us by delaying it.

So, unless it gets finished on the exact day he says it will, people will get disappointed. Which is why he hasn't given a release day for any patch so far, and hopefully never will.


And if you just want a ballpark figure, here's one. Before August. August 2013, that is.
[/quote

^^
This needs go be plastered on the screen every time you enter this forum.

It could need something like it, maybe a sticky thread explaining why there aren't any ETAs or dates in the patches.

Back on topic: The patch looks better and better each time it's updated. Keep up the great work :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tarkets on October 30, 2012, 03:27:34 PM
He should release it election day, or the day after. The happy people will be even happier, the sad people will have that mitigated a little bit. The people who don't care, will then be moderately happy
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on October 30, 2012, 03:34:10 PM
He should release it election day, or the day after. The happy people will be even happier, the sad people will have that mitigated a little bit. The people who don't care, will then be moderately happy

He should release it when it is ready.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Valhalla on October 30, 2012, 05:43:51 PM
Haven't been around for a while, but just reading over this in-dev patch had made me go "dkshfsdflhsfsj oh god all the yes"  I can honestly say this is the patch i will be most happy about out of all.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on October 30, 2012, 11:42:36 PM
id prefer status updates to a solid release date....something along the lines:
just started
adjusted some values
fixed some bugs
making final adjustments
etc.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on October 31, 2012, 12:52:23 AM
id prefer status updates to a solid release date....something along the lines:
just started
adjusted some values
fixed some bugs
making final adjustments
etc.
But with bold step you could get: BUGS. So you are back on:
"fixed some bugs"
and then you could be back on:
"adjusted some values"
etc.
And that would produce: "WTF is going on?! Why he didn't finished yet?! He write FINAL ADJUSTMENTS!!! AGROAH!!!"
And nobody want that.  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JT on October 31, 2012, 03:05:16 AM
I will say in point of fact that my interest in Dwarf Fortress was significantly high every time Tarn posted a daily update. Now that Tarn has reduced his devlog update frequency to approximately once every three days, my interest has waned.

However, a daily devlog is not for everyone. I did one of those for one of the games I was programming as a hobby and eventually it got to the point where I had to keep making excuses for why I didn't get any development done on a given day, and when I ran up against a particularly devastating bug or discovered I was going to have to gut a feature to line up with my new plans (because I forgot rule #1: NEVER CHANGE PROJECT SCOPE), I prattled on for days complaining about how difficult it was and how much I was losing interest. Plus, getting a full time job sort of killed any further interest in the project.

I deeply, truly envy Tarn's ability to hash out major program features and test them in times that put most of the industry to shame. Such is the benefit of not having to worry about anything but the actual game logic, I suppose...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on October 31, 2012, 09:43:17 AM
Guys, let's keep this on-topic. A rehash of "when is the patch coming out", an explanation of "soon (tm)", suggestions re: updates, etc, are all potentially interesting but don't belong here. I'd like to keep this a place for discussion related very specifically to this patch - questions and comments about certain items on the patch notes, questions/comments about items related to those but not mentioned, etc. I.E, stuff to do with the game itself, rather than patch logistics. If you look at the last page, it's almost entirely off-topic.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Starlight on November 01, 2012, 07:00:01 AM
Well, this all seems pretty exciting.  I suppose I'll have to consider updating my mod when this comes out, lest it descend forgotten into the murky past of no longer compatible mods.  Have to admit, I was suspicious that my plasma flak modules (the PD-LPBC's) weren't working as they should. 

Overall, looks like a lot of good stuff.  I'm excited to try out the character building aspect (especially since I've actually tried Mount and Blade (exhausively) which several people have made approximations to (and yes please, more of that sort of thing, in space, would be excellent.)) Improved Fighter AI seems like a big boost in particular.  Going to have to get Starfarer reinstalled on this PC and perhaps playing less Gratuitous Space Battles. z: )
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 01, 2012, 05:52:04 PM
What happens if the enemy fleet has more ships than you and orders an assault on a point?  Will the friendly AI send all the ships it has to capture that point and have nothing capture other points?

e.g. the enemy sends 3 lashers to capture a single point.  You have only 3 lashers deployed, will the friendly AI send all those to one point if you have other points set to capture?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 01, 2012, 06:24:23 PM
What happens if the enemy fleet has more ships than you and orders an assault on a point?  Will the friendly AI send all the ships it has to capture that point and have nothing capture other points?

e.g. the enemy sends 3 lashers to capture a single point.  You have only 3 lashers deployed, will the friendly AI send all those to one point if you have other points set to capture?

Capture orders have the same priority, I'm sure the other Lashers would first capture the other points and then come to aid their friend.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 02, 2012, 09:28:17 AM
Yeah, it'll send one to each point.

Now, if you had 4 ships deployed, where the 4th one would go would depend on the order the assignments were created, and on whether any captures were being contested. More recently created assignments draw ships first, and the old priorities are completely gone.

The good thing, though, is that if you didn't like the initial assignments, you could adjust them without it costing any more points (until you exit the command UI or about 5 seconds of unpaused game-time pass, that is).
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 02, 2012, 09:33:13 AM
Thanks, both of you. :)
Any progress so far?  After Sandy (still running off of a car battery here), still got no power, and I'm trying to find something to read to pass the time.  Read the same book about three times already. -_-
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Barracuda on November 03, 2012, 08:21:03 PM
So... You reduced the base command points to 3.... What frigates go within that small ammount
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: naufrago on November 03, 2012, 08:23:32 PM
So... You reduced the base command points to 3.... What frigates go within that small ammount

Commands Points =/= Fleet Points. Command points are what you use to give orders to your fleet, Fleet Points determine what you're able to deploy at a given time.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Barracuda on November 03, 2012, 08:25:45 PM
So... You reduced the base command points to 3.... What frigates go within that small ammount

Commands Points =/= Fleet Points. Command points are what you use to give orders to your fleet, Fleet Points determine what you're able to deploy at a given time.

Sorry about that i got confused between the two.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: rada660 on November 03, 2012, 09:49:09 PM
wished there was more game update with small content that happen more frequently, than big patch with much content ( that maybe be bugged... dont know ) once in 2 months =/
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thana on November 04, 2012, 01:00:14 AM
wished there was more game update with small content that happen more frequently, than big patch with much content ( that maybe be bugged... dont know ) once in 2 months =/

There's a very simple reason the Fractal Softworks updates don't work that way: quality control. When they release a new version, its bug count is very low and there are rarely any significant mistakes in game design, and that's because they take their time to test things out fully before releasing a new version.

Personally, I like this approach, especially since new versions don't tend to be backwards compatible with saves. How annoying would it be to have to hesitate every time a new patch comes out whether to apply it or not, because it would break your saves yet might actually make the game worse?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hyph_K31 on November 04, 2012, 01:48:16 AM
Totally agree on all points :)

Although I would be lying if I said I wasn't interested in the more 'involved' development process

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on November 04, 2012, 06:32:42 AM
The Starfarer 12 Step Program:
Step 1: Patch Release
Step 2: Bug Fixing
Step 3: Alex hints at a new feature.
Step 4: "Blog update?"
Step 5: Patch Note Update
Step 6: "More patch notes?"
Step 7: "It's ready when it's ready."
Step 8: Patch Note Update
Step 9: "More patch notes?"
Step 10: "Can we have the patch now?"
Step 11: "Alex should be more open about development process."
Step 12: "PATCH NOW PLZ?!"
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 04, 2012, 08:23:29 AM
While that was hilarious, lets try to keep this thread on topic!

Quote
Will attempt to help nearby ships in trouble

Does this include the player? Cause that would be really awesome!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 04, 2012, 09:01:46 AM
lol BillyRueben, hit it on the head. ;D

And the AI helping the player?  That's a change of thought for the AI. :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: intothewildblueyonder on November 04, 2012, 09:05:28 AM
I dont know they sometimes make themselves pretty useless. Then there are the times when they decide to show up after the fight (like when I assign a PD enforcer on a conquest - I think for some reason they fail to recognize that it can speed up with maneuvering jets)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 04, 2012, 09:25:04 AM
Does this include the player? Cause that would be really awesome!

Yeah. Though, long-term, I'm not entirely sure how well that works - haven't spent enough time with it to really get a solid feel for it. It doesn't seem to be doing anything clearly detrimental, though :)

An example: a destroyer will guard a nearby capital ship, instead of running off by itself - assuming they're both assigned to fight in the same general area, that is, and are actually *in* that area.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 04, 2012, 09:34:15 AM
That sounds as if it would also benefit the "frigates run off to get their ass kicked by cap-ships" problem :)
Oh, and don't get into too much detail with your feature tests, you have a small army of people who are eager to give you feedback at your service ;)

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ArthropodOfDoom on November 04, 2012, 03:31:02 PM
Oh, and don't get into too much detail with your feature tests, you have a small army of people who are eager to give you feedback at your service ;)

This. We would love do your playtesting for you, but unfortunately, that would require a quicker, self-downloading client. :/
I think the best place to look for balance issues is in the General Discussion forums,
everyone there seems to think the Mjolnir is underpowered, or that other guns are overpowered, etc.

On that topic: please give the Mjolnir just a teensy boost? Even like 5% in damage would be fantastic.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SQW on November 04, 2012, 04:04:54 PM
On that topic: please give the Mjolnir just a teensy boost? Even like 5% in damage would be fantastic.

Alex, are we still going to be able to change stats quickly from a excel file in the final build? Really enjoy your game but I personally like to tweak the stats to suit my slower paced playing style.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 04, 2012, 09:26:33 PM
Oh, and don't get into too much detail with your feature tests, you have a small army of people who are eager to give you feedback at your service ;)

Didn't mean that I would exhaustively playtest that - just saying that it seems ok at this point, and you guys will tell me if that's not the case :)


On that topic: please give the Mjolnir just a teensy boost? Even like 5% in damage would be fantastic.

I think skills giving more OP actually give the Mjolnir the boost indirectly (which was always the plan for it). The problem with it isn't that it's too expensive for what it does, but that basically no hull can reasonably support the flux cost. More OP ought to make it much more viable. You can actually already make a one-side Conquest build with Mjolnirs that's quite effective, but nothing else can really handle it.


Alex, are we still going to be able to change stats quickly from a excel file in the final build? Really enjoy your game but I personally like to tweak the stats to suit my slower paced playing style.

Yeah, absolutely. That's one of the things I love about PC games, myself - have some fond memories of tweaking Morrowind to my liking.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on November 04, 2012, 10:36:43 PM
An example: a destroyer will guard a nearby capital ship, instead of running off by itself - assuming they're both assigned to fight in the same general area, that is, and are actually *in* that area.
does that work for hyperion as well? because ive found out that thing is most useful when released from its leash wreaking havoc in the enemy's rear and generally pulling enemy ships away from the main battle
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Kreyesh on November 05, 2012, 05:48:46 PM
Your game is dying, updates are WAAAAY too slow. I know people who work part time on mods for other games that put out content faster than this. I am not trying to discourage you from working because the game is quite enjoyable. But it is still lacking in content and functionality. I do hope that your update is very large and provides more content then you have listed because the game has potential. A few months ago you had 30+ posts per day in some of your threads(mods for example) despite the split i still think that 2 posts a day is an indication of significantly less traffic and interest in the game. I think its more important to release your updates every few weeks then it is to make giant releases months and months apart. Generate continuous interest. I hope you do decide to continue working seeing as how i have purchased the game. Good luck, put in the work!!!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 05, 2012, 05:55:14 PM
You should have seen the rate at the notes last patch.  Besides, as soon as the update goes out, the forum goes wild (or if TotalBiscuit decides to do another review of the game like he did when campaign came out).
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 05, 2012, 06:25:34 PM
Well, that's quite a bit of gloom and doom. I'm not sure I want to go over the reasons for the pacing of updates again, especially as that's off-topic in this thread (and especially considering that regardless of that, it's been a topic of discussion in this very thread a few pages ago.)

Honestly - and I hope you don't take it the wrong way, as I don't mean to offend - but I think this is a bit silly :) The game isn't even officially out yet - any and all attention and activity it gets is a pure bonus.


On a more on-topic note, I've just spent the last couple of days revamping the command and combat tutorials. Very glad to finally have those in place where I'm actually happy with them.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 05, 2012, 06:39:13 PM
Yay, finally!  A better combat and command UI tutorial. :)

And will TB ever try to do another update on his SF video?  Like he did with the campaign patch?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 05, 2012, 06:58:31 PM
On a more on-topic note, I've just spent the last couple of days revamping the command and combat tutorials. Very glad to finally have those in place where I'm actually happy with them.

That's good, but it does mean the mission editor you were considering didn't make it, right? :-\

On an unrelated note, did you consider/remember/find time to remove the brown squares (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4188.0) around enemies (and destroyed stuff) in F11 mode? I was thinking about trying my hand at a cinematic SF video, but those squares really bug me...


And will TB ever try to do another update on his SF video?  Like he did with the campaign patch?

Maybe if multiple system are implemented? There's nothing new that's really obvious for someone who doesn't follow the development. But the most important time would be at release.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 05, 2012, 07:23:59 PM
Yay, finally!  A better combat and command UI tutorial. :)

And will TB ever try to do another update on his SF video?  Like he did with the campaign patch?

That's entirely up to him - I wouldn't presume to ask him to do one. I already owe him big time :)


That's good, but it does mean the mission editor you were considering didn't make it, right? :-\

Still looking at it. (To avoid confusion: it was never a mission editor, but rather a suggested expansion of the mission API.)

On an unrelated note, did you consider/remember/find time to remove the brown squares (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4188.0) around enemies (and destroyed stuff) in F11 mode? I was thinking about trying my hand at a cinematic SF video, but those squares really bug me...

Thanks for the reminder - done.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 05, 2012, 07:58:38 PM
Still looking at it.

Yay! :)

Thanks for the reminder - done.

Yay!  :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: intothewildblueyonder on November 05, 2012, 08:50:59 PM
I just realized that using the tutorial mechanisms and using a large map we could probably recreate a system in a mission map - a game within a game ;D

On a more serious note should we keep an eye out for things that might need a tutorial (or the reverse you ask us how well a tutorial explains something - maybe something for a new thread)

(and maybe a new thread should be made here to move all the ' why isn't it here yet' to. Or, a tutorial that cycles through the usual gamut of comments:p)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: silentstormpt on November 06, 2012, 04:54:04 AM
With the amount of content ur adding, maybe instead of 0.54a should go into the 0.60
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 06, 2012, 05:38:49 AM
Yea, like when .35 jumped to .5 XD

And a few things out there still need a tutorial.  Possibly the campaign map might need one.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: VikingHaag on November 06, 2012, 03:47:13 PM
Alex, this is probably way OFF topic, but when could we expect the full game released?
I'm a little worried we're looking toward 2014 at this rate.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 06, 2012, 04:24:30 PM
Alex, this is probably way OFF topic, but when could we expect the full game released?
I'm a little worried we're looking toward 2014 at this rate.

Aw, come on, you know me better than to expect a date or a specific timeframe :) When it's done (tm).

On a more serious note should we keep an eye out for things that might need a tutorial (or the reverse you ask us how well a tutorial explains something - maybe something for a new thread)

Yeah, feedback is always welcome. I feel good about the new tutorials, but doubtless, they could still be improved.

With the amount of content ur adding, maybe instead of 0.54a should go into the 0.60

Hmm, yeah, perhaps. If not, then it'll definitely happen when there's more than one star system.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on November 06, 2012, 04:33:42 PM
  • Forlorn Hope: added 3 more bomber wings and an Onslaught to the enemy forces


Are you going to give it impossible difficulty then change it to hard when someone beats it again?   ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 06, 2012, 04:43:53 PM
Are you going to give it impossible difficulty then change it to hard when someone beats it again?   ;D

I firmly believe that if the player is handed a Paragon, nothing is impossible :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on November 06, 2012, 05:04:58 PM
Are you going to give it impossible difficulty then change it to hard when someone beats it again?   ;D

I firmly believe that if the player is handed a Paragon, nothing is impossible :)

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/RasQM.png)
[close]
Spoilered the image - Alex

Right you are.

You should totally make this one of the official variants.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: K-64 on November 06, 2012, 10:30:47 PM
Are you going to give it impossible difficulty then change it to hard when someone beats it again?   ;D

I firmly believe that if the player is handed a Paragon, nothing is impossible :)

Err... what about... uhh... getting mercilessly slaughtered without a proper fight? :P

And just so I'm on-topic: How much does the whole skill system change the campaign dynamic as it is? Like do the AI fleet admirals have skill levels and a bit more randomised fleets to reflect that or is it just a player-focused phenomenon for the meantime?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: silentstormpt on November 07, 2012, 03:14:07 AM

With the amount of content ur adding, maybe instead of 0.54a should go into the 0.60

Hmm, yeah, perhaps. If not, then it'll definitely happen when there's more than one star system.

Ooooh, on that update dear sir,
i would jump to 0.70 from 0.6X
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: RSS_Ornel on November 07, 2012, 03:57:34 AM
I just realized that this is still alpha and it seems to have more content than triple a titles have on release. oh and i would be fine with a 2014 release.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 07, 2012, 05:20:28 AM
I just realized that this is still alpha and it seems to have more content than triple a titles have on release. oh and i would be fine with a 2014 release.

Me too. I'm glad that there is a clear outline for the game, so one day it will be finished (unlike some other game, starting with m, ending with inecraft). But on the other hand that day will be a bit sad, till now its incredible fun to follow the development process. The insight we are granted is just great, I've already learnt a lot about game design. And the community around here is pretty awesome, good to be part of it.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 07, 2012, 09:19:56 AM
Err... what about... uhh... getting mercilessly slaughtered without a proper fight? :P

I'm sure you could manage if you really put your mind to it :)

And just so I'm on-topic: How much does the whole skill system change the campaign dynamic as it is? Like do the AI fleet admirals have skill levels and a bit more randomised fleets to reflect that or is it just a player-focused phenomenon for the meantime?

Right now, the changes are very player-centric. As far as the code, it's set up to apply just as easily to AI fleets and captains as it is to the player, but I haven't re-done the campaign content to take advantage of that - because it'll have to be re-done soon, anyway, so it'd largely be wasted effort.



Thanks for the support, guys!

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: FlashFrozen on November 07, 2012, 10:00:47 AM
Though it may not be related to this patch in particular, but how are ships/weapons/fighter availability gonna be like in release? like 1 ship for sale every 3 systems? possible ships as rewards for missions?

Comparatively, are additional captain skills going to be added when real trade mechanics are introduced?

And would every system get their own supply fleet? or is it possible for a player run supply fleet to help out a system? meep :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on November 07, 2012, 10:25:20 AM
Err... what about... uhh... getting mercilessly slaughtered without a proper fight? :P

I'm sure you could manage if you really put your mind to it :)



When will we get a better auto-resolve?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 07, 2012, 09:55:21 PM
When will we get a better auto-resolve?

Poking at that is not a high priority just now.

Though it may not be related to this patch in particular, but how are ships/weapons/fighter availability gonna be like in release? like 1 ship for sale every 3 systems? possible ships as rewards for missions?

That's going to take some playtesting to nail down. I'd expect it to be *much* less than what it is now, though. The upgrade curve gets out of hand very quickly in Corvus - once you get up to a destroyer, capitals aren't so far off.

Comparatively, are additional captain skills going to be added when real trade mechanics are introduced?

Right, non-combat skills will get filled out along with non-combat gameplay.

And would every system get their own supply fleet? or is it possible for a player run supply fleet to help out a system? meep :D

Not really prepared to discuss the details right now. Sorry :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on November 08, 2012, 06:22:01 AM
Your game is dying, updates are WAAAAY too slow. I know people who work part time on mods for other games that put out content faster than this. I am not trying to discourage you from working because the game is quite enjoyable. But it is still lacking in content and functionality. I do hope that your update is very large and provides more content then you have listed because the game has potential. A few months ago you had 30+ posts per day in some of your threads(mods for example) despite the split i still think that 2 posts a day is an indication of significantly less traffic and interest in the game. I think its more important to release your updates every few weeks then it is to make giant releases months and months apart. Generate continuous interest. I hope you do decide to continue working seeing as how i have purchased the game. Good luck, put in the work!!!

Not sure where you got those numbers, I just wanted to say that last month the forum had 2675 posts and just these 8 first days of November we have had 645 new posts. So no, its not like 2 a day. Its more like 90.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: silentstormpt on November 08, 2012, 07:54:41 AM
And another thing, even if updates are slow, thanks to the big modding community who keeps making new content, it fills some of the void. I do agree they do take a long time
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Kreyesh on November 08, 2012, 01:52:49 PM
Your game is dying, updates are WAAAAY too slow. I know people who work part time on mods for other games that put out content faster than this. I am not trying to discourage you from working because the game is quite enjoyable. But it is still lacking in content and functionality. I do hope that your update is very large and provides more content then you have listed because the game has potential. A few months ago you had 30+ posts per day in some of your threads(mods for example) despite the split i still think that 2 posts a day is an indication of significantly less traffic and interest in the game. I think its more important to release your updates every few weeks then it is to make giant releases months and months apart. Generate continuous interest. I hope you do decide to continue working seeing as how i have purchased the game. Good luck, put in the work!!!

Not sure where you got those numbers, I just wanted to say that last month the forum had 2675 posts and just these 8 first days of November we have had 645 new posts. So no, its not like 2 a day. Its more like 90.

If you reread my post you will note that not only did i NOT say the whole forum but i listed a specific place that i got my numbers from. So saying you dont know where I got the numbers from is mildly, well, i refrain from insult or escalation of conflict. In hindsight i should have referred to the Sub-forum Mods and not the "thread" mods, however my meaning should have been clear.

Alex, yes I do have a sort of, pessimistic, view on the developmental speed of the game. Part of it is impatience and the rest is a worry that you my lack the motivation to in a reasonable amount of time add everything to the game that it really deserves. Some developers use the statement "its just an alpha its not really out yet" as an excuse to collect money and lay back, taking their time to implement new things. In reality the game is OUT, I purchased it, therefore it is a product that you are saying is or will be soon(well, I cant put an exact time frame on this but soon is kinda flexible here)worth the money spent. Therefore i have every right to expect the game to be playable and enjoyable to the degree advertised on the site. If not immediately then certainly soon(again, well, you get the idea). I may have been overly harsh in saying straight out that the game is dying, however my pessimistic view of things points to a significant slow down over the last month+.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on November 08, 2012, 02:19:28 PM
Well when you buy the game, you agree that you buy the game in its current state, and you have no entitlement to updates at all. So Alex could just seize developing right now, and you couldn't say anything about it.

Alex can pace the development the way he wants, and he does, nothing has ever rushed him into releasing anything, and I would rather having him work on each update for years, than rushing unfinished garbage that turns into some rushed game. We are just lucky to be along for the ride.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hyph_K31 on November 08, 2012, 02:59:36 PM
I really get rather bored with these discussions. It is Alex's game, not yours. None of us (apart from a few really active modders) have anything much to do with the development of the game, other than play testing (which nonetheless is a vital function of the forum).

Everything that Alex does is his choice, and the topic of his slow. Methodical pace has been raised a number of times, with the exact same result, albeit with new wording. It is quite frankly arrogant of anybody who is not Alex, or on the immediate development team to call their methods into question.

Developing an indie game is dangerous! Alex has invested a significant portion of his life into this game, and I think it is really quite rude to tell him, or even suggest that he do things with HIS game the he has said time and time again that he is not going to!

Yes, you've bought the game. And in doing so you have more, or less agreed to accept the pace of development, and that the game is in alpha! That is not an excuse, or even a reason for slow development, it is the way fractalsoftworks works!

I'm fairly confident in saying that Alex wants to build and deliver the best gaming experience he can, for you, and for us. And yet, people would question the methods of a man who has more or less devoted a part of his life to our entertainment.

How foolish.

I am now finished with this particular subject, I have had my rant, and I will say nothing more.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 08, 2012, 03:27:58 PM
Technically, the "Mods" section is a place just for mods, literally.  All threads there have a download for that mod somewhere.  And every thread is a mod, whether or not it's still alive or dead.

And this game is indeed still in alpha, with a remarkable amount of progress. :) I can't wait to see the final product.

EDIT:
The only thing that's rushed Alex all these years was talking about hotfixes and bad karma. ;D
Quote from: Alex
… and that’s what I get for talking about hotfixes. New version is up – there was a bug having to do with built-in weapons – using “strip” from the refit screen or loading a variant would permanently remove them. This is now fixed, please re-download the new version if you got it already (links below updated, new build is RC5).
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 08, 2012, 03:45:05 PM
In reality the game is OUT, I purchased it, therefore it is a product that you are saying is or will be soon(well, I cant put an exact time frame on this but soon is kinda flexible here)worth the money spent. Therefore i have every right to expect the game to be playable and enjoyable to the degree advertised on the site. If not immediately then certainly soon(again, well, you get the idea). I may have been overly harsh in saying straight out that the game is dying, however my pessimistic view of things points to a significant slow down over the last month+.

If you look at the preorder page, specifically the bolded and underlined parts, you'll see that I'm not obligated to provide anything other than the current version. The reason that provision is there is to cover events outside my control - such as, say, being hit by a bus - but nonetheless, that's the reality of it. I'm truly sorry if you're unhappy with the pace of development - that's certainly your prerogative. On the other hand, it's my prerogative to do it the best way I know how, and honestly, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want that. There's no magic button I can push to make things go faster - I'm already working as much as I possibly can. Not because of any feeling of obligation, but because this is what I love doing. "Motivation" is so far from being an issue that it's not even on the map.

As a side note, I find the notion that I've got enough money from the alpha to "lay back" amusing. I've been very, very fortunate - thanks to your guys' support - to essentially get a full-time salary over the time I've been working on the game full-time. That's awesome - it takes some immediate financial pressure off - but worry about the future is pretty much a permanent fixture, nonetheless.


Now then - all this off-topicness must stop now. I mean it this time! I'd imagine most folks come here for relevant news about the upcoming update, not a rehash of stuff that's been hashed (and re-hashed) a few times elsewhere. Further off-topic posts will be deleted, and offending parties will be talked to in a stern voice, by yours truly.

To provide an on-topic nugget, by way of apology to the folks hoping to see something relevant: I've spent today playtesting a combat character build in the campaign. Many bugs were fixed, and much fun was had. As a teaser, here are some more details on one for the skills:

Spoiler
Missile Specialization
+5% missile speed and maneuverability per skill level

Autoloader Reprogramming (level 5)
+50% missile rate of fire
+1 missile weapon ammo

Increased Yield (level 10)
+50% missile damage
[close]
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 08, 2012, 03:49:06 PM
Wa...what?  50% missile damage?  I know it's a massive investment, but a reaper torpedo...or a Harpoon, for god's sake, would absolutely CRUSH everything! ;D What tree is it part of (I can't think of that work right now, the Industry, Technology, Combat, etc.)?  I'm gonna dump every skill I have in there, outfit my Enforcer with 4 Harpoon Racks, Expanded Missile Racks, and terrify the enemy with 24-odd Harpoons. 8)

And finally, something to benefit the 1 OP missile launchers.  A Single Harpoon with the Level 5 will get another, right?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: K-64 on November 08, 2012, 04:17:12 PM
Wa...what?  50% missile damage?  I know it's a massive investment, but a reaper torpedo...or a Harpoon, for god's sake, would absolutely CRUSH everything! ;D What tree is it part of (I can't think of that work right now, the Industry, Technology, Combat, etc.)?  I'm gonna dump every skill I have in there, outfit my Enforcer with 4 Harpoon Racks, Expanded Missile Racks, and terrify the enemy with 24-odd Harpoons. 8)

And finally, something to benefit the 1 OP missile launchers.  A Single Harpoon with the Level 5 will get another, right?

Yeah, it does seem quite high at first, but look at the level of the skill there. I'm guessing to get up that high, you'd have to work your arse off, and then some. Plus with that kind of power increase, AoE missiles are something that are even more risky to use in a furball :P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: naufrago on November 08, 2012, 04:53:49 PM
Question about the +1 Missile ammo: Is the +1 factored in before or after the expanded missile racks hullmod? I know you talked about multiplier bonuses, but I can't remember if you talked about addition/subtraction in combination with multipliers.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 08, 2012, 05:03:10 PM
And finally, something to benefit the 1 OP missile launchers.  A Single Harpoon with the Level 5 will get another, right?

Yep.

Yeah, +50% is very significant. The number may change, of course, but the idea is that the perks are all things that matter, and enhance the effectiveness of some action the player takes, where possible. So the question, really, isn't whether 50% is "too good", but how it stacks up compared to the other level 10 Combat skill perks.

Question about the +1 Missile ammo: Is the +1 factored in before or after the expanded missile racks hullmod? I know you talked about multiplier bonuses, but I can't remember if you talked about addition/subtraction in combination with multipliers.

After. So, a single-shot Reaper gets 1 + 75% from the hullmod (still 1) + 1 more from the perk = 2 missiles. Considering an Enforcer can pack *eight* of those (and get them out 2x faster, thanks to the level 5 perk), that's still scary good.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 08, 2012, 05:34:20 PM
Hmmm....8 Reapers in one second, without human click time.  Now that's devastation, and with the Level 10, that's 36,000 HE damage.  I'm sure an Onslaught or a Paragon will have fun player with an Enforcer. >:D

And as a side note, more fun with the Doom-Class and it's Reapers and Expanded Missile Racks. :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: firstattak1 on November 08, 2012, 05:53:47 PM
Alex, not sure if you have the time or stuff to do it, but i would love it if you posted videos on your channel, like a developer comments on your game, or some spoilors on the new stuff, like what was done before. Also I want to see how you play the game yourself.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 08, 2012, 06:01:20 PM
Also I want to see how you play the game yourself.

Ah, the great mystery of a game developer playing his own game.  Though chef never tastes his own food, I'm sure Alex loves and plays his game. :) A commentary for what's coming up, or even just a short video with no sound, would be fine in my book.  If you have any time to spare, I'm sure we'd all enjoy it.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on November 08, 2012, 08:06:23 PM
Do fighters benefit from the +1 missile? Thunders with 2 harpoons?! :o
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hyph_K31 on November 08, 2012, 10:16:37 PM
Sounds interesting! I just hope that you avoid power spirals, code geass style.

Personally, I think the idea of player skills is great, but I hope that they don't turn the player into some sort of roflstomper from hell on a mission to destroy the Borg with a pencil.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thana on November 08, 2012, 11:22:19 PM
The non-scaling "+1 missile per launcher" seems off to me. Not just because it's a disproportionate bonus for one-shot to three-shot launchers, but because it'll be essentially meaningless to high-ammo-count launchers. I imagine you've considered this, but I'm still curious as to the reasoning behind this decision.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on November 09, 2012, 02:10:45 AM
agreed... the first thing i thought when seeing that is "pilum"

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mattk50 on November 09, 2012, 05:41:35 AM
is that +1 counted before or after the missile rack mod is counted. if its before, you could get 3 reapers out of a single one torpedo launcher
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: mendonca on November 09, 2012, 05:52:34 AM
Question about the +1 Missile ammo: Is the +1 factored in before or after the expanded missile racks hullmod? I know you talked about multiplier bonuses, but I can't remember if you talked about addition/subtraction in combination with multipliers.

After. So, a single-shot Reaper gets 1 + 75% from the hullmod (still 1) + 1 more from the perk = 2 missiles. Considering an Enforcer can pack *eight* of those (and get them out 2x faster, thanks to the level 5 perk), that's still scary good.

 ;)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 09, 2012, 11:14:55 AM
Alex, not sure if you have the time or stuff to do it, but i would love it if you posted videos on your channel, like a developer comments on your game, or some spoilors on the new stuff, like what was done before. Also I want to see how you play the game yourself.

I'll think about it :) It does take a little time away from "actual work", though, as I tend to be a bit OCD about things like that.

Do fighters benefit from the +1 missile? Thunders with 2 harpoons?! :o

Forgot to mention - the effects of that skill only apply to the piloted ship. Some aspects carry over when you transfer command (everything but the +1 ammo, actually).

Sounds interesting! I just hope that you avoid power spirals, code geass style.

Personally, I think the idea of player skills is great, but I hope that they don't turn the player into some sort of roflstomper from hell on a mission to destroy the Borg with a pencil.

Well, there may be a bit of that now - but later on, enemy ships should have officers as well, to even out the playing field (and to make the early game more challenging). If you think a Tri-Tachyon patrol is dangerous now, wait til you see one with elite crew and skilled captains.

The non-scaling "+1 missile per launcher" seems off to me. Not just because it's a disproportionate bonus for one-shot to three-shot launchers, but because it'll be essentially meaningless to high-ammo-count launchers. I imagine you've considered this, but I'm still curious as to the reasoning behind this decision.

Yeah, it's not exactly neat and tidy, but the idea is that there's something in that perk for both low and high ammo missiles. Standard Harpoon racks (let alone single-shot missile racks) hardly benefit from the increased rate of fire, but the +1 ammo is very cool for them. On the flip side, the rate of fire matters a great deal for Pilums, Annihilators, etc.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: intothewildblueyonder on November 09, 2012, 11:28:10 AM
...  Though chef never tastes his own food ...

you never heard the expression "never trust a skinny chef"?

now apply to Alex and :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 09, 2012, 01:19:05 PM
The +1 for missiles benfits the small launchers.  It's better to choose +1 for small and Expanded Missile Racks for large-capacity weapons.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dx on November 09, 2012, 03:43:38 PM
Alex, this is probably way OFF topic, but when could we expect the full game released?
I'm a little worried we're looking toward 2014 at this rate.
Aw, come on, you know me better than to expect a date or a specific timeframe :) When it's done (tm).

Quote from: FAQ
When is Starfarer coming out?
When it is ready. We are not Blizzard though, so this doesn’t mean 5+ years.
So it will be 4 years and 11 month!
Solved! 0_0"


PS When active development was started?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 09, 2012, 06:22:54 PM
Is it bad that I'm more excited for the passive accuracy buff than the ammo? I've been doing a lot of frigate fighting recently... eat Harpoon, hound!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 09, 2012, 06:28:46 PM
I generally turn the hound to blood and iron with a harpoon only after I cripple it's engines.  Then it gets a missile up the pipe. :)

EDIT:
Actually, how do you level up skills?  What's used?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JaytheJuggernaut on November 09, 2012, 06:44:50 PM
Is it bad that I'm more excited for the passive accuracy buff than the ammo? I've been doing a lot of frigate fighting recently... eat Harpoon, hound!

I think I'm leaning towards that too. Reload isn't a problem for me, because by the time I need to use it it's reloaded. Only exception is the annihilator rocket pod (small weapon). 5% per level, with 10 levels, is 50% increase, along with EECM. Wow.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Verrius on November 09, 2012, 08:28:29 PM
I'll think about it :) It does take a little time away from "actual work", though, as I tend to be a bit OCD about things like that.
Might be a good idea though. More frequent/engaging updates would help ease the tension from an evermore impatient community. (Though frankly, it doesn't bother me much, considering I just create content myself when I get impatient.)

Excited for the skills, but I do feel the +1 is a little awkward. Perhaps a % increase that rounds up might be in order, so it'd be at least 1, but could be as low as a 25%, or even 10% increase. Would still benefit lower numbers more, but be a decent increase for higher ammo counts.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Erick Doe on November 10, 2012, 05:37:25 AM
I'd rather see the rare update brimming with content, than a frequent barrage of small patches. Especially when there's no save game compatibility.

However, video updates on the development of the game could keep people hooked, without having to release a new version for every little change, tweak or fix.

Then again, I'd rather see Alex working on actual dev work than having to split his time between that and making videos.  :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 10, 2012, 06:35:54 AM
I'd altruistically volunteer to make videos of the def version ;D

Another thing: we are almost back at the release/update discussion again. Maybe a mod should open an extra thread for release cycle discussions to keep them out of here? It just doesn't seem to stop otherwise...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on November 10, 2012, 06:49:52 AM
2nd'd. I'm REALLY tired of reading the same three recycled posts about the time it takes for the Starfarer to be developed. If there was another thread for it, I wouldn't have to read it anymore.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thana on November 10, 2012, 08:44:53 AM
Yeah, it's not exactly neat and tidy, but the idea is that there's something in that perk for both low and high ammo missiles. Standard Harpoon racks (let alone single-shot missile racks) hardly benefit from the increased rate of fire, but the +1 ammo is very cool for them. On the flip side, the rate of fire matters a great deal for Pilums, Annihilators, etc.

Ah, right. I knew I musta missed something.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 13, 2012, 09:04:12 AM
Did you find time to look at greeble objects (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4339.0) yet, Alex? Any insights?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 13, 2012, 06:47:46 PM
It's on my list of things to look at :) Nothing concrete yet, either way.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xcom91 on November 15, 2012, 09:02:35 AM
Is there a possibility for a fourth faction or more?  :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on November 15, 2012, 09:09:16 AM
Is there a possibility for a fourth faction or more?  :)

Im very sure there will be several factions down the line. Such as the Cult of Lud.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: K-64 on November 15, 2012, 09:33:45 AM
More factions will likely come in once there are more systems, since IIRC Corvus is crowded already by "finished" standards. At least, I remember that being said at one point.

However, that's not really something we should be going deeper into with this topic. We've already been told off enough for going off-topic :P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 15, 2012, 12:34:11 PM
Updated patch notes.

I should add, the notes don't include a large amount of playtesting and skill tweaking - time consuming activities that don't lend themselves well to being bulletized :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on November 15, 2012, 12:49:55 PM
Sweet! Looks like some great changes!

Quote
New graphics for Gauss Cannon, Railgun, and Storm Needler

Pics or it diddnt happen!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 15, 2012, 01:09:36 PM
Quote
Can add custom ship system AI (warning: it requires a decent understanding of Java)

    See fastmissileracks.system for commented-out example:
        #"aiType":"CUSTOM",
        #"aiScript":"data.shipsystems.scripts.ai.FastMissileRacksAI",

Added ShipSystemAPI, FluxTrackerAPI,AssignmentTargetAPI, CombatAssignmentType, made enhancements to ShipAPI, WeaponAPI, ShieldAPI

I am incredibly excited for this. I have about a half dozen modification of the existing ship systems to try and tweak the AI for... We'll see whether my understanding of Java is decent or not (I suspect not :P).

[Edit] Read the old change log stuff again, and I'm still excited for the fighter improvements from 2 months ago... why do I have the feeling that when this patch comes out I will fall mysteriously ill for a few days? If this happens to come out over the US Thanksgiving weekend when I have nothing else to do except eat I might explode from happiness (It will come out Soontm and I like it that way, I'm just saying...)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 15, 2012, 01:18:44 PM
Pics or it didnt happen!

(http://fractalsoftworks.com/public/new_gauss_etc.jpg) (http://fractalsoftworks.com/public/new_gauss_etc.jpg)
(Click for full-size).


I am incredibly excited for this. I have about a half dozen modification of the existing ship systems to try and tweak the AI for... We'll see whether my understanding of Java is decent or not (I suspect not :P).

:)

This is probably going to take a few iterations to get completely right, as far as the API available to the AI. I did implement one of the simpler systems as an example, so it technically works, but I may have missed something obvious that's necessary for something more complex.

Also - you wouldn't be tweaking the AI for any of the systems, as much as writing new AI from scratch. The original AI is still in the core code - extracting it to scripts would be time-consuming (never mind adding to the game's loading time), even though, as far as I can tell, it's not doing anything (or much) the API wouldn't let it do.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Chancellor Meatsteak on November 15, 2012, 01:22:59 PM
What exactly is the rationale for bonus XP for losing ships in combat? Is it there to minimize the loss of XP you could have gotten if the ships were alive? If you can get more XP than normal by losing ships or battles it may lead to some odd scenarios; for example, a player might purchase a bunch of cheap, weak ships for the sole purpose of losing them in combat.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 15, 2012, 01:27:40 PM
What exactly is the rationale for bonus XP for losing ships in combat? Is it there to minimize the loss of XP you could have gotten if the ships were alive? If you can get more XP than normal by losing ships or battles it may lead to some odd scenarios; for example, a player might purchase a bunch of cheap, weak ships for the sole purpose of losing them in combat.

To give you an incentive to play through a loss instead of reloading. Roleplaying wise, it represents "learning from defeat". I don't think the reward is high enough to justify the trouble of doing it on purpose, though, and it won't kick in at all if you keep respawning just to lose your starting ship.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 15, 2012, 01:31:12 PM
Ahhh....after a day of picking up logs, choppping wood, and generally cleaning up after Sandy, I come to this.  Thanks, Alex! :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on November 15, 2012, 01:32:39 PM
Like the new look of the weapons. Storm Needler gets a lot more detail and the rail/gauss look more unified in their appereance, as they should since they're the same weapon type, just ones bigger.

So many UI and AI tweaks, skills... wonder if its gonna feel like all new combat!

C'mon ALEX! Release this week?! Fri, Sat?!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 15, 2012, 01:38:45 PM
The new sprites look good (I love the new Gauss Cannon!  Oh, will it ever have a home on any of the vanilla variants?  I've yet to see it ever since the Mark IV Autocannon and Thermal Pulse Cannons were added.

And how does one get XP?  I see you get it from loosing ships or battles, but any other way?  I'd like to see it happen for non-combat things, maybe selling loot or buying things, even mounting weapons on your ship.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on November 15, 2012, 01:52:53 PM
So Alex in this update can we get the largest fuel tanker added at last?  Maybe even some of the other ships that have graphics but aren't implemented?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sendrien on November 15, 2012, 01:56:44 PM
Nice screenshot! Good to know SF is getting some love on the graphics front too.

Incidentally, did you do all the spriting for Starfarer, Alex? Or do you have someone to help you with the visual aspect of the game?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on November 15, 2012, 02:03:44 PM
Nice screenshot! Good to know SF is getting some love on the graphics front too.

Incidentally, did you do all the spriting for Starfarer, Alex? Or do you have someone to help you with the visual aspect of the game?

Im pretty sure David does all the spriting.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on November 15, 2012, 02:13:13 PM
So Alex in this update can we get the largest fuel tanker added at last?
Why? You don't need fuel, so you don't even need the tanker that the game already has.

The Storm Needler changes are lost on me. I can't see the difference. Nice to see some under-the-hood improvements to improve performance.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on November 15, 2012, 02:24:13 PM
So Alex in this update can we get the largest fuel tanker added at last?
Why? You don't need fuel, so you don't even need the tanker that the game already has.

Yeah, but fuel will be needed later, so why not add it now and save the trouble.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sproginator on November 15, 2012, 02:58:13 PM
I may not have a pc at the moment, but YAY :P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 15, 2012, 03:36:32 PM
Quote
A phased ship overloaded or venting will come out of phase regardless of whether it's on top of another object or not

So, if I manage to get my Doom over a frigate or destroyer and vent, the frigate is destroyed and I take hull damage? Sounds like a feasible tactic.

And on the other hand, if I hover my Shade above the enemy onslaught and hit V I'm dead?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on November 15, 2012, 04:41:34 PM
You know, one weapon that could use some tweaks is the Plasma Cannon... its colors really clash with anything else in the game and it just looks plain alien - like not even something advanced humans would make. This is my opinion, of course.

Change the black to the pale blue/grey thats on the Tachyon Lance and it would look fine to me.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JaytheJuggernaut on November 15, 2012, 05:50:42 PM

  • Revamped fleet command tutorial
  • Revamped combat tutorial, split into "basic" and "advanced" portions
  • Improved Sabot missile tracking - much less likely to get total misses now
  • New graphics for Gauss Cannon, Railgun, and Storm Needler


I'm interested to see how the new tutorials work. Tutorials, for me, are nice when introducing a friend, so as not to have to explain it as much myself. :D
Graphics look neat. I really like the sabot change, hopefully makes it more worth it. Misses too much IMO.

Quote
A phased ship overloaded or venting will come out of phase regardless of whether it's on top of another object or not

So, if I manage to get my Doom over a frigate or destroyer and vent, the frigate is destroyed and I take hull damage? Sounds like a feasible tactic.

And on the other hand, if I hover my Shade above the enemy onslaught and hit V I'm dead?

To me, this is a somewhat similar tactic to the onslaught burn-drive-battering-ram-thingy. Basically we have kinetic, HE, Energy, and just plain old smashing up against the enemy's hull. Seems legit.  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: LazyWizard on November 15, 2012, 08:31:46 PM
  • Added InputEventAPI
...
  • Added ShipSystemAPI, FluxTrackerAPI,AssignmentTargetAPI, CombatAssignmentType, made enhancements to ShipAPI, WeaponAPI, ShieldAPI

Would you be willing to post these here so we could get an idea of what to expect, or are the details still in flux?

The original AI is still in the core code - extracting it to scripts would be time-consuming (never mind adding to the game's loading time), even though, as far as I can tell, it's not doing anything (or much) the API wouldn't let it do.

This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask about. Would it be possible to make Starfarer able to load .class files directly? This would both greatly decrease loading time as well as allow us to use generics and other things not supported by Janino. And they would still go through the custom classloader, correct?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: FlashFrozen on November 15, 2012, 10:17:17 PM
Now I'm thinking, is there any way to create a special ship class where it has the benefits of fightercraft/drones, but the collision of normal frigate and above ships,

Just thinking about it as a way of creating kamikaze drones with the ai possibilities ( not that I can code it :P)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xcom91 on November 15, 2012, 11:08:01 PM
So Alex in this update can we get the largest fuel tanker added at last?
Why? You don't need fuel, so you don't even need the tanker that the game already has.

Yeah, but fuel will be needed later, so why not add it now and save the trouble.

It also helps with mass trading. Take the Fleet Size Mod for example. You can produce your own fuel with the right upgrades to your personal station. With that being said, once enough fuel is produced, the largest tanker will help reduce the amount of trips needed to exchange it. :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 16, 2012, 08:46:13 AM
So Alex in this update can we get the largest fuel tanker added at last?  Maybe even some of the other ships that have graphics but aren't implemented?

'fraid it's still in the dry docks.

The Storm Needler changes are lost on me. I can't see the difference.

It fits in better visually with the ships that generally mount it.


Quote
A phased ship overloaded or venting will come out of phase regardless of whether it's on top of another object or not
And on the other hand, if I hover my Shade above the enemy onslaught and hit V I'm dead?

Not necessarily "dead", but in pretty bad shape, yeah.

Now I'm thinking, is there any way to create a special ship class where it has the benefits of fightercraft/drones, but the collision of normal frigate and above ships,

Yeah, actually. If you use an EveryFrameCombatPlugin and adjust the CollisionClass of the drones as appropriate. The "as appropriate" part is likely to require some work, though.


    Wow, I'm loving the API changes in this update - so many things just became possible. This might be my favorite update so far. :)

  • Added InputEventAPI
...
  • Added ShipSystemAPI, FluxTrackerAPI,AssignmentTargetAPI, CombatAssignmentType, made enhancements to ShipAPI, WeaponAPI, ShieldAPI
[/list]

Would you be willing to post these here so we could get an idea of what to expect, or are the details still in flux?

Still adjusting some of these. Here's InputEventAPI, though - it's pretty mature as it's been used by the game since the beginning.
Spoiler

public interface InputEventAPI {
   int getEventValue();
   int getX();
   int getY();
   int getDX();
   int getDY();
   InputEventClass getEventClass();
   void logEvent();
   boolean isConsumed();
   void consume();
   boolean isRepeat();
   InputEventType getEventType();
   boolean isMouseEvent();
   boolean isKeyboardEvent();
   boolean isKeyUpEvent();
   boolean isKeyDownEvent();
   boolean isMouseUpEvent();
   boolean isMouseDownEvent();
   boolean isLMBDownEvent();
   boolean isLMBEvent();
   boolean isRMBEvent();
   boolean isLMBUpEvent();
   boolean isRMBDownEvent();
   boolean isRMBUpEvent();
   boolean isMouseMoveEvent();
   boolean isMouseScrollEvent();
   char getEventChar();
   boolean isAltDown();
   boolean isCtrlDown();
   boolean isShiftDown();
   boolean isUnmodified();
   boolean isDoubleClick();
}
[close]


The original AI is still in the core code - extracting it to scripts would be time-consuming (never mind adding to the game's loading time), even though, as far as I can tell, it's not doing anything (or much) the API wouldn't let it do.

This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask about. Would it be possible to make Starfarer able to load .class files directly? This would both greatly decrease loading time as well as allow us to use generics and other things not supported by Janino. And they would still go through the custom classloader, correct?

Interesting idea. Let me take a look at what it would take to load up jar/class files dynamically. With jars, you'd still have to use scripts as stubs to call into them... unless the data definitions were changed to allow you to specify stuff within a jar directly. Hmm.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on November 16, 2012, 08:55:14 AM
Loving the new textures for the weapons! The Needler reminds me alot of the Hephaestus, and the Gauss and Railgun looks alot smoother.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: firstattak1 on November 16, 2012, 11:51:12 AM
Is there anymore ideas for new phase ships? Or I that to come in a later date.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Blips on November 16, 2012, 12:04:52 PM
Now we need phase missiles / torpedoes / bombs.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: dogboy123 on November 16, 2012, 05:25:00 PM
Now we need phase missiles / torpedoes / bombs.  ;D ;D ;D
Wow earlier today I was thinking about this too, when playing the Ironclads mod I was wondering, "what if there was a phase cruise missile in this mod?" XD, supported 200%.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on November 16, 2012, 07:37:29 PM
Looks great, Alex!  Glad to see so much progress on the big stuff :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hopelessnoob on November 16, 2012, 08:00:27 PM
I really hope this game isn't our Christmas present from you Alex, i don't think i can wait that long.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 16, 2012, 08:29:29 PM
Looks great, Alex!  Glad to see so much progress on the big stuff :)

Thanks for helping suggest some of it :)


I really hope this game isn't our Christmas present from you Alex, i don't think i can wait that long.

Well, I rather hope it won't be that long.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gabriel_Braun on November 16, 2012, 08:59:16 PM
Ahhh....after a day of picking up logs, choppping wood, and generally cleaning up after Sandy, I come to this.  Thanks, Alex! :)


Not sure if Canada joke or just Canadian
:D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Verrius on November 16, 2012, 09:46:00 PM
I really hope this game isn't our Christmas present from you Alex, i don't think i can wait that long.
Well, I rather hope it won't be that long.
You seem to have given us a time frame.
That being said, I highly doubt the game will be released between now and Christmas :p
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hopelessnoob on November 16, 2012, 10:51:04 PM
Didn't mean the full version of it, just this version you're teasing us with.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: StahnAileron on November 17, 2012, 02:30:31 PM
Quote
Campaign:
  • Losing ships in combat gives bonus XP, if the fleet has more than 5 fleet points worth of ships
  • Losing a battle gives double XP for that battle, if you fleet was worth more than 5 fleet points

In regards to this, you wouldn't happen to be considering other Bonus XP conditions, would you? Like say:


...And probably some other things I can't think of off-hand right now. Numbers are up in the air for those suggestions, of course. This to help reward players that go out of their way and display skill in combat.

Also, is there any possibility of making salvage/capture chances higher based on player performance in a fight? Like say in a fight, I manage to concentrate all my fire on the rear side of an enemy vessel. I've knocked out his engines several times during the fight and the rest of his ship is mostly intact save for the rear quadrant. I finally kill him while his engines are out and the rest of his ship is untouched. Wouldn't that make a capture attempt more likely to happen in the post battle? I'm not asking for a HUGH boost to chance, but just SOME sort of boost to reflect the skill and efforts of users in combat. Like if a ship only has a 1/100 chance of normally being capturable post-battle, doing certain things could boost it to like 1/50 chance.

Similar for undamaged weapons on enemy vessel for salvaging post-battle. (Maybe even for credits as well. I imagine there'd be more undamaged CPU cores to pull credits from if a player is very picky about targetting and leave a vessel mostly intact before disabling it.) You'd still have to farm battles, but drops and captures are SLIGHTLY skewed towards the players' benefit if they put the effort into it.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 17, 2012, 03:55:03 PM
Not sure if Canada joke or just Canadian
:D
Hurricane Sandy cleanup.  Pine tree fell over, cleaned it up that day. :)

Lots of ideas for XP, huh?  I like the sound of getting through a fleeing battle unscathed.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on November 17, 2012, 04:15:08 PM
While I'm not opposed to other XP rewards, the purpose of the ones he's looking at now isn't to reward players for doing winning battles cleanly; they already get rewarded for that.  It's about offering some limited compensation for loss to encourage players to bear through it instead of reloading and also make fleet destruction a little bit less of a brutal reset.  There's fair justification for it, too; nothing teaches quite like failure.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: zakastra on November 18, 2012, 03:37:24 AM
Yep, if you effortlessly wipe your foes of the map without turning the guns of autofire, having to vent your flux, or even engage any maneuvers, you aren't going to learn much at all, apart form "maybe I can use my time more effectively here"
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: StahnAileron on November 18, 2012, 07:15:07 AM
Your vets and elites may not learn more, but the rookies and recruits would learn a lot, won't they? They would learn how to proper accomplish tasks so they can actually do the same type of actions later. But it was just an idea I wanted to throw out there for later consideration, maybe. I just think skilled execution by the player in a battle should be tangibly rewarded somehow. It could be bonus XP, bonus multiplier to credits salvage, higher chances to board ships, higher equipment salvage chances, etc. Doesn't matter to me. I just want some incentive at also TRY my best when I technically don't have to.

If I can fly a 100FP fleet that can steamroll nearly every fleet it comes accross, it'd be nice to have some sort of in-game incentive to make me WANT to use, say, only 50FP instead. Self-motivation will only get players so far in games like this unless they have some form of in-game reward instead of or in addition to self-satisfaction.

But *shrug* It's not a major issue for me though. At least not yet. Gotta see how the end product will be before I will/can pass and judgement. I am anxious for 0.54a's release though ^_^; Especially with all these changes. It'll be like a whole new game!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Vind on November 18, 2012, 08:45:14 AM
Winning battle without losses and serious damage is already reward of its own,  no need to add any special bonuses atop of it. The best system is to give more rewards with more risk but avoid save scumming to get more with each battle. Maybe reward players for not saving too often?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on November 18, 2012, 12:48:18 PM
Winning battle without losses and serious damage is already reward of its own,  no need to add any special bonuses atop of it. The best system is to give more rewards with more risk but avoid save scumming to get more with each battle. Maybe reward players for not saving too often?
uh and why would you do this in a SP game? i mean there is no reason to do this....if you want to suffer consequences of one horrible decision by AI sure then just dont load save....others might not feel it that way ;)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hopelessnoob on November 18, 2012, 01:08:10 PM
Your crew is learning from experience, they got to experience what not to do with the ships that blew up. Alex doesn't want to remove save scumming cause some people will just play like that, but he doesn't want to punish people who won't just save/reload after each battle.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on November 18, 2012, 01:21:49 PM
Winning battle without losses and serious damage is already reward of its own,  no need to add any special bonuses atop of it. The best system is to give more rewards with more risk but avoid save scumming to get more with each battle. Maybe reward players for not saving too often?
uh and why would you do this in a SP game? i mean there is no reason to do this....if you want to suffer consequences of one horrible decision by AI sure then just dont load save....others might not feel it that way ;)
SP games need to be balanced just as much as MP games do. Games should also give players rewards for sticking with the consequences of their actions rather than just redoing everything constantly until you get a favorable outcome.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on November 18, 2012, 01:30:08 PM
Just a question for Alex but can he make it so that the AI doesn't send drones out to die when their main purpose is to increase it's range.  Even on free roam they should try to stay within it's shield bubble.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 18, 2012, 01:56:37 PM
Just a question for Alex but can he make it so that the AI doesn't send drones out to die when their main purpose is to increase it's range.  Even on free roam they should try to stay within it's shield bubble.

From the patch notes:
Quote
Drastically reduced Apogee sensor drone roam range

:)


Spoiler
Quote
Campaign:
  • Losing ships in combat gives bonus XP, if the fleet has more than 5 fleet points worth of ships
  • Losing a battle gives double XP for that battle, if you fleet was worth more than 5 fleet points

In regards to this, you wouldn't happen to be considering other Bonus XP conditions, would you? Like say:

  • XP bonus for defeating an opposing fleet while using only X% of your own forces' (or opposing fleet's) FP cost.
  • XP bonus for getting through a FLEEING battle with all ships intact against a fleet with X times more FP worth.
  • XP bonus for eliminating ALL opposing vessels of a FLEEING battle (Or perhaps a slightly better salvage chance for money/equipment?)
  • XP bonus for taking no damage (other than shield damage) in a battle. Probably balanced against FP costs of the your fleet versus opposing fleet.

...And probably some other things I can't think of off-hand right now. Numbers are up in the air for those suggestions, of course. This to help reward players that go out of their way and display skill in combat.

Also, is there any possibility of making salvage/capture chances higher based on player performance in a fight? Like say in a fight, I manage to concentrate all my fire on the rear side of an enemy vessel. I've knocked out his engines several times during the fight and the rest of his ship is mostly intact save for the rear quadrant. I finally kill him while his engines are out and the rest of his ship is untouched. Wouldn't that make a capture attempt more likely to happen in the post battle? I'm not asking for a HUGH boost to chance, but just SOME sort of boost to reflect the skill and efforts of users in combat. Like if a ship only has a 1/100 chance of normally being capturable post-battle, doing certain things could boost it to like 1/50 chance.

Similar for undamaged weapons on enemy vessel for salvaging post-battle. (Maybe even for credits as well. I imagine there'd be more undamaged CPU cores to pull credits from if a player is very picky about targetting and leave a vessel mostly intact before disabling it.) You'd still have to farm battles, but drops and captures are SLIGHTLY skewed towards the players' benefit if they put the effort into it.
[close]

At this point, I hadn't really given it that much thought. Once the campaign shapes up - that is, goes beyond a single star system, and beyond combat being the only thing to do - I'll definitely take another look at what gives XP and how/how much.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 19, 2012, 11:53:00 AM
Updated with some modding-focused changes. Likely to be the last update prior to the release.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on November 19, 2012, 11:59:21 AM
Whoo!  You so awesome.  :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on November 19, 2012, 12:41:43 PM
Next stop: RELEASE CENTRAL
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Psiyon on November 19, 2012, 12:52:34 PM
Hey Alex, I don't think I've told you this recently, but I thought I'd remind you just in case you had forgotten: I love you.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Uomoz on November 19, 2012, 01:03:55 PM
Holy Moly.


SO much love, Alex.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on November 19, 2012, 01:42:41 PM
Hoping for a few more logistics ships to go wit hthe expanded universe in the patch after this.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 19, 2012, 01:48:10 PM
Hoping for a few more logistics ships to go wit hthe expanded universe in the patch after this.

What makes you think the patch after this will expand the universe?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hyph_K31 on November 19, 2012, 01:54:17 PM
Yay! Yay! Yay! I need more to say! But I don't, because it's too amazing!

Hoping for a few more logistics ships to go wit hthe expanded universe in the patch after this.

What makes you think the patch after this will expand the universe?

Gothars, anything this amazing must surely make the universe grow that little bit faster!

... wait a minute...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Blips on November 19, 2012, 08:27:51 PM
Nice, so I can only guess that the new version will be releasing sometime this week?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on November 19, 2012, 08:33:28 PM
I'm drooling already  ;D

I don't suppose "spawn missiles and other projectiles" means there's going to be a general method to hook into the detonation of projectiles via code?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: VerifiedN on November 19, 2012, 08:36:45 PM
Updated with some modding-focused changes. Likely to be the last update prior to the release.
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001997215/721187406_Hell_Yes_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg)

That is all.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on November 19, 2012, 10:59:17 PM
Winning battle without losses and serious damage is already reward of its own,  no need to add any special bonuses atop of it. The best system is to give more rewards with more risk but avoid save scumming to get more with each battle. Maybe reward players for not saving too often?
uh and why would you do this in a SP game? i mean there is no reason to do this....if you want to suffer consequences of one horrible decision by AI sure then just dont load save....others might not feel it that way ;)
SP games need to be balanced just as much as MP games do. Games should also give players rewards for sticking with the consequences of their actions rather than just redoing everything constantly until you get a favorable outcome.
in fact no, SP games require completely different set of balancing than MP games...
it depends on the person really.....if you dont want to be "saves scumming" (imho its pretty ridiculous term) then dont do it ;) also what does completely losing the battle, even though it wasnt even your fault, give you?
i just think there should be more than one save slot because not all of us want to replay several hours of gameplay just because of some RNG quirk or better yet an unforeseen bug - no offense mean here alex but it can and probably will happen with the campaign introduction
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Okim on November 20, 2012, 01:29:15 AM
Quote
Total conversions can now...

Hurrray!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Erick Doe on November 20, 2012, 05:55:06 AM
Quote
Total conversions can now...

Hurrray!

Added data/config/title_screen_variants.csv to specify which ships show up on the title screen

No more vanilla ships cruising through total conversions.  :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 20, 2012, 11:44:04 AM
Oh good, I never noticed that bit, Erick.  I love this update! :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 20, 2012, 12:03:35 PM
Thanks, guys :)


I'm drooling already  ;D

I don't suppose "spawn missiles and other projectiles" means there's going to be a general method to hook into the detonation of projectiles via code?

I'm looking at that. Not a big fan of notification callbacks, but may be necessary in this case. No promises, etc etc.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on November 20, 2012, 12:18:54 PM
NP, just one of those crazy ideas.  Wanted to make a ship that could deploy space stations that didn't have to follow Drone rules and some kewl FX stuff that's probably only doable via code and particle / projectile creation.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Uomoz on November 20, 2012, 12:46:02 PM
Oh god I'll love updating U'sC with the new modability additions.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 20, 2012, 01:34:37 PM
Wow... with the .jar files and all the combat modding tools I can really see some of the more talented modders making "drop and go" packages that accomplish specific effects. That would be totally sweet!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sherrodninja on November 20, 2012, 06:53:09 PM
My life is getting better each and every update. Thank you!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: WarStalkeR on November 21, 2012, 12:50:40 AM
One of the greatest updates! Now we have access to AI ;D

Alex, what regarding making filter for weapons and weapon mounts?
For example adding to weapon.wpn something like "wpnFilters":"hir,idf"; which allow to use this weapon at any mount of same size and mount type that have filters like this:
{"angle": 0.0, "arc": 240.3, "id":"BGIGUN_TUR_M_01", "locations":[76.0,-0.0], "mount":"TURRET", "size":"LARGE", "type":"BALLISTIC", "wpnFilters":"hir"} or
{"angle": 0.0, "arc": 240.3, "id":"BGIGUN_TUR_M_01", "locations":[76.0,-0.0], "mount":"TURRET", "size":"LARGE", "type":"BALLISTIC", "wpnFilters":"idf"}
And vice verse, if mount have "wpnFilters":"hir,idf"; it can mount any weapon of same size and mount type that have "wpnFilters":"hir" or "wpnFilters":"idf"

I also didn't understood from updates, will some serious size projectiles have more health then some small bullets and missiles?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Leyammon on November 21, 2012, 09:04:08 AM
You should totally add hats... every game needs hats...
What are you talking about...?
Of course a spaceship can wear hats...
Silly people...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sproginator on November 21, 2012, 09:22:31 AM
You should totally add hats... every game needs hats...
What are you talking about...?
Of course a spaceship can wear hats...
Silly people...

^ This
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 21, 2012, 09:37:34 AM
 
You should totally add hats... every game needs hats...
What are you talking about...?
Of course a spaceship can wear hats...
Silly people...

At first I thought you were joking, but now I realize what a brilliant Idea that is! Scrap all that other stuff in the update Alex, we want hats now!

(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/977/condorhat.jpg)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on November 21, 2012, 11:34:17 AM
Alex should totally do that as an April Fools Day Update.
So who wants to guess what will be in the update past this?  My guess is the implimentation of additional systems and travel.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thana on November 21, 2012, 11:50:22 AM
So who wants to guess what will be in the update past this?  My guess is the implimentation of additional systems and travel.

That'd be my guess.

However, that's been my guess for the last two major updates, so shows what I know, doesn't it?  ;D

In other words, I'll just wait and see what Alex think the time is ripe for.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on November 21, 2012, 12:51:38 PM
You should totally add hats... every game needs hats...
What are you talking about...?
Of course a spaceship can wear hats...
Silly people...

At first I thought you were joking, but now I realize what a brilliant Idea that is! Scrap all that other stuff in the update Alex, we want hats now!

(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/977/condorhat.jpg)
I believe Alex would prefer it if Valve DIDN'T have to break his legs.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Blips on November 21, 2012, 01:52:39 PM
Alex should totally do that as an April Fools Day Update.
So who wants to guess what will be in the update past this?  My guess is the implimentation of additional systems and travel.

The foundation for construction + 2nd star system.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on November 21, 2012, 03:18:24 PM
Hey Alex can we get a sneak peek at the new ambient combat music?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hypilein on November 22, 2012, 02:03:31 AM
Hey Alex

Can you add a Display that shows how much supplies are needed when you want to repair in a station. It's very hard to guess how much you need if you don't have enough and it's kind of annoying to go to the station and buy small amounts of supplies until you hit the magic spot.

(Hope it's ok to post this here, but as it doesn't really warrant a lot of discussion an own thread in the Suggestions Forum seemed a little bit too much.)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 22, 2012, 02:11:51 AM
Can you add a Display that shows how much supplies are needed when you want to repair in a station. It's very hard to guess how much you need if you don't have enough and it's kind of annoying to go to the station and buy small amounts of supplies until you hit the magic spot.

I made a suggestion about that some time ago (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=3607.msg55330#msg55330) and it was approved. So yeah, a solution will probably be implemented at some point. "when [Alex is] working on that area of the code for some other reason"
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: angrytigerp on November 22, 2012, 05:48:46 AM
Finally, a bit more extensiveness to the RPG aspect of the game.

I know Alex is a one-man army, but I must admit that I'm really feeling the press of time. Every day we go without a new version (and new features) is another day closer to when I ship to Navy Boot Camp in January... I wonder if I'll see .55 by the time I ship?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sproginator on November 22, 2012, 06:15:39 AM
......I know Alex is a one-man army......

Wrong, I hate this :(, He is just part of a team of developers working away, people should really stop thinking Alex does ALL the work, Everybody deserves credit on that team, so THANKS GUYS 8D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 22, 2012, 08:51:14 AM
NP, just one of those crazy ideas.  Wanted to make a ship that could deploy space stations that didn't have to follow Drone rules and some kewl FX stuff that's probably only doable via code and particle / projectile creation.

Latest update on that: you should be able to detect when stuff explodes. No callback for it, but you can query the state of the engine every frame and figure it out based on that (I.E., is the projectile still in play? If so, does its didDamage() method return true? If so, what did it do damage to?)


Re: hats - Everything is funnier with hats. It's like a universal constant.


Hey Alex can we get a sneak peek at the new ambient combat music?

No :)


Can you add a Display that shows how much supplies are needed when you want to repair in a station. It's very hard to guess how much you need if you don't have enough and it's kind of annoying to go to the station and buy small amounts of supplies until you hit the magic spot.

I made a suggestion about that some time ago (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=3607.msg55330#msg55330) and it was approved. So yeah, a solution will probably be implemented at some point. "when [Alex is] working on that area of the code for some other reason"

Yeah... don't want to spend time reworking a UI that's probably going to get changed beyond recognition.


One of the greatest updates! Now we have access to AI ;D

Just ship system AI for now, mind you :)

Spoiler
Alex, what regarding making filter for weapons and weapon mounts?
For example adding to weapon.wpn something like "wpnFilters":"hir,idf"; which allow to use this weapon at any mount of same size and mount type that have filters like this:
{"angle": 0.0, "arc": 240.3, "id":"BGIGUN_TUR_M_01", "locations":[76.0,-0.0], "mount":"TURRET", "size":"LARGE", "type":"BALLISTIC", "wpnFilters":"hir"} or
{"angle": 0.0, "arc": 240.3, "id":"BGIGUN_TUR_M_01", "locations":[76.0,-0.0], "mount":"TURRET", "size":"LARGE", "type":"BALLISTIC", "wpnFilters":"idf"}
And vice verse, if mount have "wpnFilters":"hir,idf"; it can mount any weapon of same size and mount type that have "wpnFilters":"hir" or "wpnFilters":"idf"
[close]

This would require UI support to work well - especially in conveying these hidden rules to the player. Without that, it'd just be frustrating and appear broken. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it's not something I can justify spending time on, given that it's in the "adding features that only mods can use" category. When I have time to improve the game's modability, I'd rather spend it on exposing existing core features to mods.

I also didn't understood from updates, will some serious size projectiles have more health then some small bullets and missiles?

As far as I remember, nothing has changed about that.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: WarStalkeR on November 22, 2012, 08:19:58 PM
Re: hats - Everything is funnier with hats. It's like a universal constant.
It still will take time before hats will be on same level of universal constants as 42 :P

Just ship system AI for now, mind you :)
Oh, it's already enough to cause total destruction with Systems I already implemented :)

When I have time to improve the game's modability, I'd rather spend it on exposing existing core features to mods.
Ready and waiting :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JT on November 23, 2012, 01:07:38 AM
You should totally add hats... every game needs hats...
What are you talking about...?
Of course a spaceship can wear hats...
Silly people...

At first I thought you were joking, but now I realize what a brilliant Idea that is! Scrap all that other stuff in the update Alex, we want hats now!

(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/977/condorhat.jpg)
I believe Alex would prefer it if Valve DIDN'T have to break his legs.

On the contrary! Valve and Alex are already working on an Onslaught hat for Team Fortress 2.

It's, uh, it's a little unwieldy. Takes up about half the map.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Leyammon on November 23, 2012, 06:02:03 AM
You should totally add hats... every game needs hats...
What are you talking about...?
Of course a spaceship can wear hats...
Silly people...

At first I thought you were joking, but now I realize what a brilliant Idea that is! Scrap all that other stuff in the update Alex, we want hats now!

(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/977/condorhat.jpg)
I believe Alex would prefer it if Valve DIDN'T have to break his legs.

On the contrary! Valve and Alex are already working on an Onslaught hat for Team Fortress 2.

It's, uh, it's a little unwieldy. Takes up about half the map.

Pahahahahahahaha! I think that ship needs a monocle, I mean... If I was blown into space by a ship with a top hat and monocle I would be nothing but charmed... and dead... maybe a little dead...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on November 23, 2012, 06:17:59 AM
Quote
Latest update on that: you should be able to detect when stuff explodes. No callback for it, but you can query the state of the engine every frame and figure it out based on that (I.E., is the projectile still in play? If so, does its didDamage() method return true? If so, what did it do damage to?)
That's cool; can we just check didDamage() or is that going to return true for any projectile ID whose explosion lasts for more than one frame?  What about beams? 

Just wondering how we're going to populate our event table and compare it with the game's internal one; that sounds like it'd get pretty expensive if we have to do a for-each check for every single projectile vs. every table entry.  If an explosion lasts multiple frames, we'll have to exclude it from the table on future frames and do a fair amount of table maintenance, too. 

Sorry if any of that sounds stupid in Java terms, just trying to work out what we'll be looking at here in terms of finding out which projectiles haven't had a unique event yet.  Might be cheaper to simply have a function that gets called for any projectile if it has a name value other than null when it detonates and let the end-user define that code in the .proj, like how it's handled for .systems.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 23, 2012, 07:38:44 AM
Pahahahahahahaha! I think that ship needs a monocle, I mean... If I was blown into space by a ship with a top hat and monocle I would be nothing but charmed... and dead... maybe a little dead...

Mh..this is now the official logo of the Starfarer short story contes (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4704.0)t!
Spoiler
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/456/nobleship.jpg)
[close]
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on November 23, 2012, 08:38:58 AM
Tweet from Alex!

 
Quote
Testing a release candidate... let's see how this goes.

YAY!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sproginator on November 23, 2012, 08:44:01 AM
Pahahahahahahaha! I think that ship needs a monocle, I mean... If I was blown into space by a ship with a top hat and monocle I would be nothing but charmed... and dead... maybe a little dead...

Mh..this is now the official logo of the Starfarer short story contes (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4704.0)t!
Spoiler
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/456/nobleship.jpg)
[close]
Classy
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 23, 2012, 09:43:51 AM
HELL YEA

The release is immenent! :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 23, 2012, 10:08:21 AM
Spoiler
Quote
Latest update on that: you should be able to detect when stuff explodes. No callback for it, but you can query the state of the engine every frame and figure it out based on that (I.E., is the projectile still in play? If so, does its didDamage() method return true? If so, what did it do damage to?)
That's cool; can we just check didDamage() or is that going to return true for any projectile ID whose explosion lasts for more than one frame?  What about beams?  

Just wondering how we're going to populate our event table and compare it with the game's internal one; that sounds like it'd get pretty expensive if we have to do a for-each check for every single projectile vs. every table entry.  If an explosion lasts multiple frames, we'll have to exclude it from the table on future frames and do a fair amount of table maintenance, too.  

Sorry if any of that sounds stupid in Java terms, just trying to work out what we'll be looking at here in terms of finding out which projectiles haven't had a unique event yet.  Might be cheaper to simply have a function that gets called for any projectile if it has a name value other than null when it detonates and let the end-user define that code in the .proj, like how it's handled for .systems.
[close]

Hmm. A onHit() script per-projectile sounds like a good idea, but it won't make it into this release. For now, you'd have to, each frame, see which projectiles went from didDamage() = false to didDamage() = true, and work from that. That's not as computationally expensive as it sounds.



Guys - let's keep this thread on topic. Conversation #1000 re: release schedule definitely isn't. Especially if the person posting the initial comment regarding that clearly didn't read the last 2-3 posts in this topic.

Deleted some posts to clean it up. My apologies to the people that wrote them, but I felt it was necessary - it wasn't headed anywhere good.

@Jetsumodumo: if you want to have this conversation elsewhere, that's fine. However, I'd invite you to reconsider your tone. Comments in the vein of "the mods suck" are not likely to engender much sympathy from the community, are rude, and are frankly nothing short of flamebait.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Erick Doe on November 23, 2012, 10:17:58 AM
@Jetsumodumo,

Did you look at the opening post of this thread? I advise anyone looking for content updates and progress on the game to look at the opening post of this thread. Because it does indeed list numerous progresses; by date even. Since the version you've obtained in september, there's been a list of developments listed on the 12th of September, 21st of September, the 13th of October, 23rd of October, the 15th of November and the 19th of November. Hardly vague when you get all these detailed listings of what has been done and what is being worked on.

Somehow, you don't strike me as a devoted customer. As you haven't checked the changelogs in weeks, apparently. The mods are not officially released or supported by Fractal Softworks, so I don't see how that is relevant to your complaint. But thanks for your kinds words.

On a side note: Alex! So excited! :D

The mod support you're adding along with the expansion and improvement of game content is just amazing!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on November 23, 2012, 10:25:15 AM
Quote
Hmm. A onHit() script per-projectile sounds like a good idea, but it won't make it into this release. For now, you'd have to, each frame, see which projectiles went from didDamage() = false to didDamage() = true, and work from that. That's not as computationally expensive as it sounds.
Yeah, that was what I was hoping for, that or a callback.  Anyhow, really looking forward to playing with this, it'll make a lot of interesting things possible :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 23, 2012, 12:17:16 PM
... and, it's out. Go get (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2012/11/23/starfarer-0-54a-release/) it!

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 23, 2012, 12:18:11 PM
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: mendonca on November 23, 2012, 12:19:01 PM
Oh man oh man oh man ...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 23, 2012, 12:25:01 PM
Oh man oh man oh man ...
Dude it's just game don't get over excited  :P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 23, 2012, 12:26:39 PM
HUZZA!!!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Erick Doe on November 23, 2012, 12:27:15 PM
The excitement!  :D

Don't expect to hear from me soon.  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Hyph_K31 on November 23, 2012, 12:29:22 PM
Th- tabuh- whaa- t- t- t- wer...

YAY!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on November 23, 2012, 12:32:07 PM
<screams like a little girl> and on my day off, too!  Thanks Alex, this is definitely the best $10 I've spent on a game in years :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 23, 2012, 12:40:44 PM
DANG Alex, skills are so good I do not know what to choose  :P

An at beginning when you chose your "history", why you didn't put what skills that will unlock?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 23, 2012, 12:56:28 PM
Thanks, guys :) This makes me happy.

An at beginning when you chose your "history", why you didn't put what skills that will unlock?

Didn't want it to feel so min-max focused.

Hot tip: picking the "something else" options will let you spend *all* the points as you see fit, but start you off in a shuttle or a hound.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 23, 2012, 12:57:18 PM
Muahahaha this is awesome. Keep up the great work Alex!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 23, 2012, 12:58:26 PM
Hot tip: picking the "something else" options will let you spend *all* the points as you see fit, but start you off in a shuttle or a hound.
Yeah, got that after 3x time going Did something Else  :P

I got Q:
Mechanical Engineering and Computer System skills and Technology aptitude have +% on ordinance points. Does that bonuses stack up?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 23, 2012, 01:05:17 PM
I got Q:
Mechanical Engineering and Computer System skills and Technology aptitude have +% on ordinance points. Does that bonuses stack up?

Yep. The "Technology" aptitude itself also has a % bonus to OP, btw.

Muahahaha this is awesome. Keep up the great work Alex!

:)


In other news: apparently, the tutorials all crash. Hotfix soon.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 23, 2012, 01:16:04 PM
I got Q:
Mechanical Engineering and Computer System skills and Technology aptitude have +% on ordinance points. Does that bonuses stack up?
Yep. The "Technology" aptitude itself also has a % bonus to OP, btw.
That's why i did write Technology aptitude  :D. Awesome, tnx Alex.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 23, 2012, 01:18:11 PM
Durr. Sorry about that, was distracted by this tutorial business.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on November 23, 2012, 01:25:59 PM
great job alex thanks for making me spend 10 bucks in a meaningful was instead of wasting it on beer or some bad game ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 23, 2012, 01:27:06 PM
Will industry be started once politics and outposts come into play?  I want my asteroid monopoly! :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on November 23, 2012, 01:30:14 PM
Crap. Now I have to choose between playing Starfarer or XCOM. Will probably balance between the two. Tune in next week to find out what happens.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Verrius on November 23, 2012, 01:32:28 PM
Time to get to work!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on November 23, 2012, 01:33:23 PM
Ah man I have to wait another day my computer comes back tomorrow. :'(
Gasp I just paid my sister 3 dollars to use her computer for starfarer it looks so awesome!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on November 23, 2012, 01:33:50 PM
Mod seems to load all right out of the box, yay.  Now I've just got to figure out how to customize what ships people can start with and other things, hehe :)

I also guess I need to read through the notes about what CARRIER/CIVILIAN do in the CSV (I presume those are AI hints), same with any weapon changes.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 23, 2012, 01:35:31 PM
Time to get to work!
Let's see what these two mad scientists (Verrrius + LazyWizard) can do!  I look forward to your creations. :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: billi999 on November 23, 2012, 01:42:30 PM
Mod seems to load all right out of the box, yay.  Now I've just got to figure out how to customize what ships people can start with and other things, hehe :)

I also guess I need to read through the notes about what CARRIER/CIVILIAN do in the CSV (I presume those are AI hints), same with any weapon changes.

I believe the changes are that ships no longer "assume" to be civilian or carrier type ships, so they're now user-defined properties of the ships. The reason for this, if I remember rightly, is that some mod ships behaved like civilian or carrier ships even though they were just poorly armed or happened to have a flight deck but were still combat-worthy respectively.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on November 23, 2012, 01:50:37 PM
So Alex can we get the Ambient Combat Track?  I want to add it to my MP3.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 23, 2012, 02:00:12 PM
Mod seems to load all right out of the box, yay.  Now I've just got to figure out how to customize what ships people can start with and other things, hehe :)

I also guess I need to read through the notes about what CARRIER/CIVILIAN do in the CSV (I presume those are AI hints), same with any weapon changes.

I believe the changes are that ships no longer "assume" to be civilian or carrier type ships, so they're now user-defined properties of the ships. The reason for this, if I remember rightly, is that some mod ships behaved like civilian or carrier ships even though they were just poorly armed or happened to have a flight deck but were still combat-worthy respectively.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Some vanilla refitted ships, too.


So Alex can we get the Ambient Combat Track?  I want to add it to my MP3.

These'll be available from Stian (the composer) as part of the soundtrack, once the game is officially out. So, the answer is yes, but not yet :)


Also: hotfix (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2012/11/23/starfarer-0-54a-release/) for the tutorial crash is now up.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Hopelessnoob on November 23, 2012, 02:09:51 PM
Sigh now the anticipation begins for the next patch.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on November 23, 2012, 02:15:01 PM
Hmm.  Tested out "Projectile graphics now rendered at correct aspect ratio based on the width of the trail, regardless of its length".

The sprites are now working properly (big yay!) but I can't reduce the coreColor alpha without both making the sprite alpha change (eek) and the weapon's explosion color change.  

So I still can't have, say, a green custom weapon explosion sprite with a bright purple explosion.  To get correct sprites, all my ballistic projectiles need a coreColor of 255s.

Am I just doing it wrong?  I just want to see the sprite, no trail, and a yellow-orange explosion when it hits stuff.

And man, am I going to have fun with the custom battle stuff.  Can we define "neutral" team stuff or a third team, so that we can have objects that shoot at everybody?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 23, 2012, 02:19:13 PM
Ah, Alex.  Time to change the front page for that Character Skills portion in "Upcoming Features"
:)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 23, 2012, 02:36:17 PM
Ah, Alex.  Time to change the front page for that Character Skills portion in "Upcoming Features"
:)

Oh, good call! Done.


Hmm.  Tested out "Projectile graphics now rendered at correct aspect ratio based on the width of the trail, regardless of its length".

The sprites are now working properly (big yay!) but I can't reduce the coreColor alpha without both making the sprite alpha change (eek) and the weapon's explosion color change. 

So I still can't have, say, a green custom weapon explosion sprite with a bright purple explosion.  To get correct sprites, all my ballistic projectiles need a coreColor of 255s.

Am I just doing it wrong?  I just want to see the sprite, no trail, and a yellow-orange explosion when it hits stuff.

The hit glow uses the fringe color from the spec and always has a white core (for brightness). So yeah, those things are linked. So are the bullet color and the "core" part of the ballistic trail. But the core color shouldn't affect the explosion color, as far as I can see from the code.

... we should probably continue this in the modding section.

And man, am I going to have fun with the custom battle stuff.  Can we define "neutral" team stuff or a third team, so that we can have objects that shoot at everybody?

Hmm. Maybe, though the API doesn't grant access to "setOwner()"... but you might be able to get around that somehow. But the AI probably wouldn't handle it well.

Sigh now the anticipation begins for the next patch.

This kind of dedicated pessimism deserves commendation. Nicely done :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 23, 2012, 02:36:28 PM
*** awesome. All the skills are appealing, mysterious and seem to be decent choices to make. The game feels slightly more immersive too. Time to get back working on my mod after my exams.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Aleskander on November 23, 2012, 02:40:52 PM
Well goodbye real life, I'll be back in a few days
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 23, 2012, 02:46:27 PM
Thank you for releasing this at the weekend Alex :) 

I will give feedback as soon as if tried everything...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 23, 2012, 02:47:58 PM
A day after thanksgiving, we all give thanks! :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on November 23, 2012, 03:05:29 PM
So Alex can we get the Ambient Combat Track?  I want to add it to my MP3.

These'll be available from Stian (the composer) as part of the soundtrack, once the game is officially out. So, the answer is yes, but not yet :)


You're killing me here Alex.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 23, 2012, 03:35:41 PM
I love the new combat tutorials! :D Althought the screen stops moving around when your mouse enters the text box, I find that annoying.

And for the Fleet Combat Tutorial, I did not expect myself to win that battle. :) Guess high-tech fighters and frigates are OP. ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: theSONY on November 23, 2012, 03:41:12 PM
joy... JOY !! :D
now i must download it & play the damn thing BUT im happy as a puppy right now  :-X
 
PS: wisjh i was sober right now (well there is always tomorrow)

                                                                                                               ::) 
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on November 23, 2012, 03:45:52 PM
I'm really happy with the skills that only benefit your own ship (most or all of the combat tree). A lot more interesting when you have to make the choice between making your ship godlike and making all of your ships good. I wasn't expecting this at all.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Uomoz on November 23, 2012, 04:17:27 PM
Yay!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Hypilein on November 23, 2012, 04:20:00 PM
Some of my first impressions.

The leveling up process seems to add a lot of fun, and isn't to slow. I went for the Tech-Tree and my god, do you get a lot of extra OP to play with. I'm now trying to get all the extra flux stuff up to 10 and see if I can outfit tempests with heavy blasters.... I'll report how it goes.

Now some suggestions:

As we don't have access to all the Hull Mods from the start it would be nice to add them to the codex. Even as a seasoned player I had to think about what some of them do and new players won't stand a chance. It's not nice to skill all the way to get some hullmod, only to find out it's not what you were looking for. On a side note: The new hullmods are pretty cool!

Also a little bit more choise for the Leadership Tree would be nice, but I guess we'll get that when other aspects of the game get added.

The last thing is more of a question. On the lvl10 Bonus in the first skill in Tech you get 50% added fire bonus. Does that only apply to projectile weapons? How are Weapons with burst Mechanics or replenishing Ammo affected?

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 23, 2012, 04:46:25 PM
I went more of a balanced tree for my character so far.  Interesting, but I'm vying to get my hands on more apitude points. ;D Need more fleet points!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on November 23, 2012, 04:47:07 PM
Hmmm my ont question is why are there only 4 aptituds and 5 rows? Anyone care to hazard a guess?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: dogboy123 on November 23, 2012, 05:12:11 PM
Holy crap it's out.... :o,goodbye everyone, see you in a few weeks
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 23, 2012, 05:18:05 PM
As we don't have access to all the Hull Mods from the start it would be nice to add them to the codex. Even as a seasoned player I had to think about what some of them do and new players won't stand a chance. It's not nice to skill all the way to get some hullmod, only to find out it's not what you were looking for.

Good point. I'll have to do that.

The last thing is more of a question. On the lvl10 Bonus in the first skill in Tech you get 50% added fire bonus. Does that only apply to projectile weapons? How are Weapons with burst Mechanics or replenishing Ammo affected?

Burst beam weapons have the burst cooldown reduced by that amount - so, not quite as good as for ballistic weapons, but still something. Replenishing ammo doesn't factor into this, so for the Autopulse Laser, the burst would come out that much quicker, but would take as long as before to recharge.

Hmmm my ont question is why are there only 4 aptituds and 5 rows? Anyone care to hazard a guess?

Just a bit of extra room for mods to add skills.

I love the new combat tutorials! :D Althought the screen stops moving around when your mouse enters the text box, I find that annoying.

Yeah, not 100% happy with that, but it's *way* worse to not have the screen stop. Then it just drifts away from your ship while you're reading the instructions.

I'm really happy with the skills that only benefit your own ship (most or all of the combat tree). A lot more interesting when you have to make the choice between making your ship godlike and making all of your ships good. I wasn't expecting this at all.

Glad you like it so far :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 23, 2012, 05:30:39 PM
IS it possible to mod skills?  I can't remember from a while ago.  Might be fun to play around with.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Verrius on November 23, 2012, 05:39:42 PM
Oh yeah. I almost have it working with Fleet Control.

I'm curious to see how these functions will work with this mod though, I don't wanna get my hopes up :\

Huh, can we not system.getEntityByName("Fleet") for the player's fleet anymore? It keeps giving me null errors.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 23, 2012, 06:06:49 PM
Ok, a few early notes because I've got to go now:

First, its great ;D. Both the skills system and the command UI are great additions to the game and feel fundamentally just right. The dynamic objective capturing seems especially amazing thus far, it makes true the principle of maximum control with minimal effort like no other mechanic. I also love the new fighter behavior and the iron mode and many other things that I won't list here.

But I've got a few negative things/ suggestions as well. Some things are probably placeholders anyway, but I will just act as if anything is supposed to be final.

- The graphic representation of the skill menu is sub-par. And I'm not talking about aesthetics (the symbols are wonderful, good looking and comprehensible) but about the arrangement. The symbols have too little space between them, they blend into each other and make it hard to discern them. You have a lot of space there that you could use. Why not align the aptitude indicator with the associated skills?

- There is too much information (and choices) at the beginning of a new campaign. First you get a low-information, high consequence choice with your characters history. After that you get the reverse, a damn lot of information
 (you basically have to read 19 skills description) and a half-as important choice. Makes no sense to me.

How about a suggestion system like in fallout 3? You can decide on your history and the game selects a meaningful combination of skills based on that. You can just go with that for an easy introduction. Or you can view in detail what  apts/skills are selected and change all of them.
Alternatively limit the choice of skills at level 1, maybe just three per aptitude.

- Reaching a new level is much to subtle. I often don't notice. Level progression should be a reason to rejoice, so give me fanfares and light shows!

- Please add keyboard support for the tutorial text messages, its annoying to have to click them. Also, they are somewhat oddly placed in the upper left corner. I think good tutorial design is important because it's likely the first thing a new player will encounter and can thus decide if he will proceed with the game.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 23, 2012, 06:11:20 PM
What is the maximum level?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 23, 2012, 06:12:45 PM
It's a "soft cap", which means there is no level cap.  It just gets a lot harder to level up after certain points.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Erick Doe on November 23, 2012, 06:19:02 PM
I'm loving the ironmode. I always tried to reload as little as possible, but sometimes it is just so hard to resist. Especially after loosing 90% of your fleet.  :D

Now I'm forced to make do with what I have and whatever happens. For me this makes it much more intense; and much more enjoyable!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 23, 2012, 06:24:34 PM
its still easy even with iron mode, im lvl 30 or so now on my first save, got a fairly large fleet, nothing can kill me, so i turned my modded factions on, stuff just got ALLOT harder.  ;)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 23, 2012, 06:31:56 PM
Huh, can we not system.getEntityByName("Fleet") for the player's fleet anymore? It keeps giving me null errors.

Use Global.getSector().getPlayerFleet() instead. I'm not entirely sure why getEntityByName() isn't finding it anymore, but it was never supposed to work for the player fleet in the first place. More a happy coincidence that it turned out to be a functional workaround.

- The graphic representation of the skill menu is sub-par. And I'm not talking about aesthetics (the symbols are wonderful, good looking and comprehensible) but about the arrangement. The symbols have too little space between them, they blend into each other and make it hard to discern them. You have a lot of space there that you could use. Why not align the aptitude indicator with the associated skills?

Absolutely agree, but coming up with a better layout is tricky. I mean, we've gone back and forth a bit with some of the same ideas (align aptitudes and related skills) but... well, didn't come up with anything better. But hadn't given up, either :)

- There is too much information (and choices) at the beginning of a new campaign. First you get a low-information, high consequence choice with your characters history. After that you get the reverse, a damn lot of information
 (you basically have to read 19 skills description) and a half-as important choice. Makes no sense to me.

How about a suggestion system like in fallout 3? You can decide on your history and the game selects a meaningful combination of skills based on that. You can just go with that for an easy introduction. Or you can view in detail what  apts/skills are selected and change all of them.
Alternatively limit the choice of skills at level 1, maybe just three per aptitude.

I hear what you're saying. Having to read 19 skills once you've gained your first skill-point in-game isn't that much better, though.

- Reaching a new level is much to subtle. I often don't notice. Level progression should be a reason to rejoice, so give me fanfares and light shows!

There's already a drumroll, what more do you want! (I just got visions of the effects that happen when you finish a level in Peggle.) Well, fair enough - an area for improvement, let's say :)

- Please add keyboard support for the tutorial text messages, its annoying to have to click them. Also, they are somewhat oddly placed in the upper left corner. I think good tutorial design is important because it's likely the first thing a new player will encounter and can thus decide if he will proceed with the game.

Hmm. Where would you put them? Upper left seems like the first place someone would look, assuming their native language reads top to bottom and left to right. It's also conveniently free of any widgets, and isn't smack dab in the middle of the screen. I did think about adding shortcuts, but that seems to be the kind of thing someone doing a tutorial for the first time might not find all that useful. You probably just wanted to breeze through it to figure it out, though... correct me if I'm wrong, I'm definitely open to input. Just giving my current opinion here.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 23, 2012, 07:20:27 PM
Hmm... am I missing something with Integrated Targeting Unit? It doesn't stack with the dedicated core (which costs nothing and is immediately available) and is, for cruisers and capitals, just plain worse because it costs OP. The ITU on frigates and destroyers is nice, but doesn't even give much of a range boost. Its odd that a hullmod so far down the tree doesn't really do anything?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 23, 2012, 07:27:41 PM
The Dedicated Targeting Core costs 20/40 on cruiser/capital, while the ITU costs 15/30. The DTC only "costs" 0 on frigate/destroyer, where it can't be mounted anyway.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 23, 2012, 07:28:33 PM
That's true.  It's meant to be like that, make with what you have. :) Research some more, and you get rewarded.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 23, 2012, 07:59:04 PM
Huh, I wonder how I missed that!  :-[ Fair enough :P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 23, 2012, 08:32:26 PM
I just noticed that the fleet command tutorial breaks and won't let you progress if one of your wasp wings are dead by the time you are ordered to select them both.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 23, 2012, 08:46:47 PM
I just noticed that the fleet command tutorial breaks and won't let you progress if one of your wasp wings are dead by the time you are ordered to select them both.

Thanks - I'll have to do something about that (probably some rather ham-fisted damage reduction to the player's ships...). I never had that happen in my testing, but apparently those low-tech ships are meaner than I thought :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Chancellor Meatsteak on November 23, 2012, 09:09:41 PM
Is there any particular reason Gunnery Implants is a Technology skill and not a Combat one? Given it only effects your ship it would seem to make more sense for the latter.

Similarly, Field Repairs seems more like a Leadership skill, even if it fits in thematically with Technology. Field Repairs is useful for maintaining your fleet, which seems to be the point of Leadership, rather than making your ships stronger, which seems to be the point of Technology. If it is an Industry skill temporarily placed under Technology one could still argue that it makes more sense for Leadership, as I imagine Industry will focus on making money rather than preventing losses, though if ship-building becomes a part of the game and is governed by Industry it would make sense that the same skill for building ships is also used for repairing them.

There also a couple of minor inconsistencies like the Missile Specialization giving hullmods and Ordnance Expertise's second perk affecting the entire fleet, both of which seem like Technology effects despite being part of Combat skills.

All that however are just very minor quibbles with what is otherwise an excellent update. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Zettimation on November 23, 2012, 09:44:42 PM
Uh, am I the only one getting this problem? I can't seem to download 0.54a, been getting this error

<Error>
<Code>AccessDenied</Code>
<Message>Access Denied</Message>
<RequestId>DED58357A259CD22</RequestId>
<HostId>
VK1jSGZe5UXgrO629Z0UiYPnXsV2S+IcnOPwSNMhbmXCxLBcf31wjeQ6DAvCk6VC
</HostId>
</Error>
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Levik on November 23, 2012, 09:54:06 PM
hallelujah
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thana on November 23, 2012, 11:18:33 PM
The new tutorials are a lot better than the last ones, I think.

One thing I paid attention to in the skill description boxes: the expression of per level benefits and current benefits was at first unintuitive. What I mean by that is that you'd get something like "Bonus to X: Y%. (Z% per skill level.) Now, it became clear enough after reading through the text box carefully, but I did first interpret the current bonus for the per level bonus. Not that it lasted long, but I do think that dividing the per level bonus and the current bonus to different lines of text would make the whole thing clearer. Or at least place the per level bonus first and the current bonus in brackets, at least; a person reading about what the skill does will find the per level value more important, so that should come first, I think.

Edit: Also, is it just my imagination or has crew experience gain been boosted by a considerable margin? I got my flagship to an elite status in no time flat, something that I think used to take pretty long.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gaizokubanou on November 24, 2012, 05:35:27 AM
Oh this release will keep me very happy... Keep up the great work Alex!  It's going to be hard waiting for whatever you have planned on cooking up for next content based patch.

Edit: Ermm where did my CD-Key go...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 24, 2012, 05:57:04 AM
It would be useful if we could see how much dmg skills add on weapons of our ship. Maybe in refit screen when hover with cursor over weapon and in little windows that appears with that weapon stats should be displayed bonus dmg and other stuff that skills add.

And, maybe, other bonuses to ship vent rate etc.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sproginator on November 24, 2012, 07:41:49 AM
It would be useful if we could see how much dmg skills add on weapons of our ship. Maybe in refit screen when hover with cursor over weapon and in little windows that appears with that weapon stats should be displayed bonus dmg and other stuff that skills add.

And, maybe, other bonuses to ship vent rate etc.

Good idea
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 24, 2012, 08:46:06 AM
Spoiler
Uh, am I the only one getting this problem? I can't seem to download 0.54a, been getting this error

<Error>
<Code>AccessDenied</Code>
<Message>Access Denied</Message>
<RequestId>DED58357A259CD22</RequestId>
<HostId>
VK1jSGZe5UXgrO629Z0UiYPnXsV2S+IcnOPwSNMhbmXCxLBcf31wjeQ6DAvCk6VC
</HostId>
</Error>
[close]

Hi - could you try it from a different browser?

Spoiler
Is there any particular reason Gunnery Implants is a Technology skill and not a Combat one? Given it only effects your ship it would seem to make more sense for the latter.

Similarly, Field Repairs seems more like a Leadership skill, even if it fits in thematically with Technology. Field Repairs is useful for maintaining your fleet, which seems to be the point of Leadership, rather than making your ships stronger, which seems to be the point of Technology. If it is an Industry skill temporarily placed under Technology one could still argue that it makes more sense for Leadership, as I imagine Industry will focus on making money rather than preventing losses, though if ship-building becomes a part of the game and is governed by Industry it would make sense that the same skill for building ships is also used for repairing them.

There also a couple of minor inconsistencies like the Missile Specialization giving hullmods and Ordnance Expertise's second perk affecting the entire fleet, both of which seem like Technology effects despite being part of Combat skills.

All that however are just very minor quibbles with what is otherwise an excellent update. Keep up the good work!
[close]

Hmm - I think you're assuming there shouldn't be any crossover between what the different categories of skills do, but this is in fact deliberate. The occasional fleetwide effect on a combat skill, or player-ship-only effect on a tech skill both add some more fine-grained choices. For example, you can decide to invest heavily into Technology, but you can also choose to spend some of that investment on improving combat - but it won't be as strong of a combat build as it would be if you put some points into the combat aptitude.

It also makes it more difficult to to pick up the skills to make you the "absolute best" in a given area (or, indeed, to figure out what that build is, given that you're unlikely to max more than 2 aptitudes, with 4 skills maxed within each).

As for Tech/Leadership/Industry skills, those are bound to get shuffled around after Industry is added.

One thing I paid attention to in the skill description boxes: the expression of per level benefits and current benefits was at first unintuitive. What I mean by that is that you'd get something like "Bonus to X: Y%. (Z% per skill level.) Now, it became clear enough after reading through the text box carefully, but I did first interpret the current bonus for the per level bonus. Not that it lasted long, but I do think that dividing the per level bonus and the current bonus to different lines of text would make the whole thing clearer. Or at least place the per level bonus first and the current bonus in brackets, at least; a person reading about what the skill does will find the per level value more important, so that should come first, I think.

Thanks for sharing that - I'll keep it in mind and see what other people's feedback is. I'm not sure there's room for multiple lines there...

Edit: Also, is it just my imagination or has crew experience gain been boosted by a considerable margin? I got my flagship to an elite status in no time flat, something that I think used to take pretty long.

Hmm, yeah. Somewhat unintended, actually - was tweaking player XP gain, but it's linked to the crew gain at the moment. Well, let's see how that plays out :)

It would be useful if we could see how much dmg skills add on weapons of our ship. Maybe in refit screen when hover with cursor over weapon and in little windows that appears with that weapon stats should be displayed bonus dmg and other stuff that skills add.

And, maybe, other bonuses to ship vent rate etc.

I'll take another look at some point. Don't remember why I didn't do it - may have been some technical reason that made it tricky, or may have been UI layout related.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: naufrago on November 24, 2012, 10:18:12 AM
Hmm, yeah. Somewhat unintended, actually - was tweaking player XP gain, but it's linked to the crew gain at the moment. Well, let's see how that plays out :)


Well putting in my 2¢, I like the XP change since I don't mind losing crew as much as I used to, since they aren't as rare a commodity. I don't see them as expendable, but if I lose a handful of veterans and elites, I'm much less likely to re-load.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on November 24, 2012, 10:57:06 AM
Yeah, I like it; that was one of the biggest hassles previously; now we can actually build an Elite fleet and not just have to pick safe engagements all the time.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 24, 2012, 10:59:08 AM
The always-available "Blast Doors" hullmod is intended to help with that, too (by reducing crew losses).
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Pelhamds on November 24, 2012, 11:01:29 AM
I've found a very odd bug thing...

When you are in a ship and urn around so no weapons face it, but have shield protecting your arse you then reverse near them then flip round and destroy the ship.

So is this a intentional bug/thing? Cos it is very funny to murder ships in a shuttle :)

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/p6LU7.png)
[close]
(spoilered image - Alex)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 24, 2012, 11:12:18 AM
You mean that the AI will dart in when you turn around? Yeah, that's a known thing. In general, it's a good tactic... but should probably make it less abusable in a 1-1.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Pelhamds on November 24, 2012, 11:23:16 AM
Thank you Alex, i knew that they darted in to murder you when you are weak I just saw that It was a very easy system to abuse in 1 on 1, and 2 on 1 as well (you turn around the other ships kill it) and Y SPOILER IT ! :P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: erynr73 on November 24, 2012, 11:39:05 AM
Been in several situations where I was in a slower moving ship and couldn't turn fast enough to hit the annoying fast ship attacking me.  However the other ship didn't have enough fire power to even raise my flux lvls while shielded.  It's an annoying stalemate that could only be ended by taking advantage of that AI exploit.  Kinda wish the enemy AI would run away if they can't ever hope to overload your shields.  Would use auto resolve to end that kind of stalemate but I lost a battle that way once.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Erick Doe on November 24, 2012, 11:46:52 AM
Been in several situations where I was in a slower moving ship and couldn't turn fast enough to hit the annoying fast ship attacking me.  However the other ship didn't have enough fire power to even raise my flux lvls while shielded.  It's an annoying stalemate that could only be ended by taking advantage of that AI exploit.  Kinda wish the enemy AI would run away if they can't ever hope to overload your shields.  Would use auto resolve to end that kind of stalemate but I lost a battle that way once.

This has been present in previous versions as well.

No-one could win. And if I fled the battlefield, the AI would continue to persue and catch up with me, within seconds. Making it impossible to ever leave. And the other way around, if the enemy would flee from me, they would leave the battle; but continue to persue me again on the system map, catching me within seconds.

So even if I could win, the enemy would flee the actual battle, only to continue pursuing me on the system map. Quite annoying.

[edit]
This is a rare occurrence, however. And usually involves an over-confident hound AI.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: stonehand on November 24, 2012, 12:00:44 PM
think there is a bug when u get more then 1 level after a battle you only seem to get the skill points from 1 of the levels and in the chat thing it only tells you about 1 of them.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 24, 2012, 12:09:27 PM
Re: abovementioned AI stuff - acknowledged. There are some rough edges on the combat/campaign transition that I'd like to smooth over.

think there is a bug when u get more then 1 level after a battle you only seem to get the skill points from 1 of the levels and in the chat thing it only tells you about 1 of them.

Hmm - afaik, it works correctly. 2 SP per level, 1 AP every other level. The message tells you the total points you've got, not just what you gained.


Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Hyph_K31 on November 24, 2012, 01:07:11 PM
Loving this version Alex!

I'm especially enjoying the new command interface. much, much more intuitive!

Iron mode also makes the whole experience far more immersive, it's like a whole new game!

keep up the excellent work!

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/6SWkK.jpg)
no matter what anyone says, you're surely one of the best indie developers out there!
[close]
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: stonehand on November 24, 2012, 01:13:54 PM
the message it gave me when i got 2 levels at once was u gain 2 sp 1 ap, it should of said 4 sp and 1 ap right? and i only got to spend 2 sp and 1 ap. that said i could be mistaken about getting 2 levels maybe some1 could test i'm lvl 9 now so getting 2 levels at once is hard.

edit i'm lvl 10
have 8 ap and 24 sp if this is right then i was mistaken
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 24, 2012, 01:28:31 PM
have 8 ap and 24 sp if this is right then i was mistaken

That's right - 3 AP / 6 SP starting, plus 5 AP and 18 SP from levelups.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 24, 2012, 03:27:51 PM
How you gain Fleet Points? I'm level 10 and i have only 25FP. Oh no... No no no no i need Leadership stuff? No passive increase by player level?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 24, 2012, 03:30:46 PM
Did it really take you that long to figure that out?  ::) "Leadership"
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on November 24, 2012, 03:35:48 PM
So Alex, want to tell us what the next project will be?  System Travel and better fleshing out of the campaign I hope.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 24, 2012, 03:36:25 PM
Did it really take you that long to figure that out?  ::) "Leadership"
Yes lvl10 man... But i expected Leadership to give bonus to FP not to be main source of it... OOOO man -.- Fart!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 24, 2012, 03:44:16 PM
I actually like it better this way, you have 120 FP when you have leadership maxed out,  which means 180 FP if you go beyond the limit!  ;D

and it doesn't really matter if you drop points wrong in the beginning, there is no level cap, so you can just go on and fix it later while you skill up other things.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Talkie Toaster on November 24, 2012, 04:00:00 PM
How you gain Fleet Points? I'm level 10 and i have only 25FP. Oh no... No no no no i need Leadership stuff? No passive increase by player level?
If you don't put points into Leadership though, you will be a one-man killing machine.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 24, 2012, 04:12:44 PM
Absolutely agree, but coming up with a better layout is tricky. I mean, we've gone back and forth a bit with some of the same ideas (align aptitudes and related skills) but... well, didn't come up with anything better. But hadn't given up, either :)

I've made some design suggestions. Please have a look at this thread (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=4841.0).

I hear what you're saying. Having to read 19 skills once you've gained your first skill-point in-game isn't that much better, though.

Well, you are right with that. But thinking further ahead, we will end up with about 40 skills to choose from. To present them to a new player all at once would likely scare him away. How about a introduction phase? The player could be presented with ~1-2 new skills/apt every level up to level ~5-10. Until then (or only then) respecing is possible. That would a) limit the information to process and b) give opportunity to experience the game universe and what skills do in it, enabling a more informed skill decision. Skills that allow permanent change of the sector (industry skills?) would have to wait until respecing is disabled. I will think some more about this.

Hmm. Where would you put them? Upper left seems like the first place someone would look, assuming their native language reads top to bottom and left to right. It's also conveniently free of any widgets, and isn't smack dab in the middle of the screen.

I think initially finding the text box is not a problem. The problem is that your attention (and your cursor) is dragged around. You look at your ship in the center, back in the corner, to the center, to the corner... It's true that there are no widgets there, but that's a double edged... butter-knife, because you still have to look at the things the text talks about, and it's not optimal if they are as far away as possible. It's hard to say without testing, but I would guess that the position just above the FPS count could work much better.

This is btw all based on a widescreen resolution.


I did think about adding shortcuts, but that seems to be the kind of thing someone doing a tutorial for the first time might not find all that useful. You probably just wanted to breeze through it to figure it out, though... correct me if I'm wrong, I'm definitely open to input. Just giving my current opinion here.

Yeah, I'm specifically thinking of people who just want to breeze trough. To repeatedly aim your cursor at a small word needs time and concentration. A sentence like "click continue or press Enter (or n or ->) to proceed" would also eschew the awkward "camera movement while moving cursor to text boxt" -issue.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: lindsay lohan on November 24, 2012, 05:43:57 PM
Being able to add OP to the main fleet ships has made fighters/bombers far less viable. Great game though, digging all the new content!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 24, 2012, 05:50:12 PM
Being able to add OP to the main fleet ships has made fighters/bombers far less viable. Great game though, digging all the new content!

I'm with you on this - a few skills that make fighters more fearsome (or less OP/fighter) would be a nice addition.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: neonesis on November 24, 2012, 06:39:18 PM
Being able to add OP to the main fleet ships has made fighters/bombers far less viable. Great game though, digging all the new content!

I'm with you on this - a few skills that make fighters more fearsome (or less OP/fighter) would be a nice addition.
I second this.
The improved AI for fighters makes them fight considerably better, but after some time (and level ups) you notice that all other ship classes became so much  more valuable since you can mount more weapons on them, or give them more capacitors/vents.

It's also strange not to have any fighter-related skills and perks. However I believe it's all planned already, given the appearance of missile specialisation.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on November 24, 2012, 07:07:18 PM
Any benefit to taking a shuttle? Or is that a masochism only thing?  :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on November 24, 2012, 07:34:21 PM
I also agree that fighters are going to need something significant to keep up with the OP boosted ships - I know they get some of the same bonuses as all the other ships get via skills but thats just not enough to account for all the extra hull mods, vents and more powerful weapon loadouts that are now possible.

On a side note, is there gonna be a sort of fixer'up patch in a week or so?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 24, 2012, 07:41:29 PM
Re: fighters - more or less agree. A leadership skill or some such seems fairly likely. Unless fighters turn out to be very cheap to manufacture and replace on the campaign level - that'd be another angle to approach it from.

Any benefit to taking a shuttle? Or is that a masochism only thing?  :)

Pretty much just masochism :) It's also about the only choice if you pick "something else" x2.

On a side note, is there gonna be a sort of fixer'up patch in a week or so?

Very likely, though, in keeping with well-established precedent, I can't say exactly when.

There's nothing urgent that needs hotfixing at the moment (knock on wood), so I'm just fixing up bugs as they come in, and doing some planning for the next release in the meantime.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on November 24, 2012, 08:01:50 PM
I'd rather fighters/bombers NOT go the cheap toss-away route. Ideally, there'd be options for players to create ship-only or carriers and strike craft-only fleets and have them roughly equivalent.

You've made all these fighter and bomber wings a very large part of Starfarer and I personally feel they should get a respectable amount of love from character advancement - perhaps even going so far as to create a new aptitude dedicated to strike craft and their carriers. :o I do see the issue of the player not being able to pilot fighter wings though... :-\

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 24, 2012, 08:06:17 PM
Make a frigate with fighter graphics and give it a drone_PD that are 2 identical ships = you control a fighter squadron!  :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on November 24, 2012, 08:17:15 PM
So my first impression is that it feels hollow. The character progression is cool, but it's not really compelling on it's own. I think that's just b/c we have a piece of the campaign instead of the coherent whole.

The character progression is great, though! It's nice that each click is meaningful. Can't wait to test out all number of crazy character builds. There's so much craziness you can do. SO MANY SHENANIGANS! Must try all the things!  Haha.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 24, 2012, 08:23:29 PM
So my first impression is that it feels hollow. The character progression is cool, but it's not really compelling on it's own. I think that's just b/c we have a piece of the campaign instead of the coherent whole.

The way I see it, character progression allows you to shape a tool (your character) that interacts with the game world. And since right now that interaction boils down to killing a bunch of enemy ships...

Anyway, very fair point.


I'd rather fighters/bombers NOT go the cheap toss-away route. Ideally, there'd be options for players to create ship-only or carriers and strike craft-only fleets and have them roughly equivalent.

Without having made a decision one way or the other, I just want to say that the "throwaway" route doesn't preclude them from being as powerful.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on November 24, 2012, 09:07:56 PM
The way I see it, character progression allows you to shape a tool (your character) that interacts with the game world. And since right now that interaction boils down to killing a bunch of enemy ships...
Right. And like I said. The mechanic itself is great, it just feels like there's more. Which there is, it's just not in yet. So now I'm not sure why I even brought it up, haha.

EDIT: Oh and unstable injector is the best thing ever.  :D
EDIT2: Also other-other is clearly the best character choice with the two best starting ships ever. ;)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Omez on November 24, 2012, 09:17:31 PM
I fell like having 50% more OP is pretty OP. I now own an Eagle with full vents, caps, and the speed of a destroyer while still possessing all of its firepower. I don't even have any of the combat skills yet.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Needle_Fingers on November 24, 2012, 09:35:31 PM
Hello there!

Been playing this for a while now and loving the game!

This new update is very exciting, been enjoying the skills and character planning (starting out with a hound is sheer masochism on my part).

However after having played with the new patch for a while i would like to suggest a few things, that may/may not be helpful.

With the preset character creation questions, it would be helpful if it was said what skills/ships are available through the start of the questionaire or if perhapes the questionaire just suggested the skills and that can be changed?

With character levelling up, most of the time i have my own music running in the background and don't hear the drumroll/see the readout at the bottom especially whilst trying to outmanouver several Pirate Armadas, an idea i had is when there are skill points/appititude points available to spend, the character tab at the bottom could have a pulsating glow or something of that sort.

Anyways, thats about it really, aside from a few AI quirks it is getting better everytime!

(Apologies about the spelling, i am quite terrible at that)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Miter on November 24, 2012, 11:03:42 PM
... don't hear the drumroll/see the readout at the bottom ...

How about fireworks firing from your fleet when you level up?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on November 24, 2012, 11:43:17 PM
Pretty much just masochism :) It's also about the only choice if you pick "something else" x2.

Thanks for the tip!  Dunno why I didn't try that.

So how about that hound, eh?  It's so ridiculous now.  Yes you don't get frontal shields right off the bat.  But you do get unstable injector.  Which makes the thing ridiculously fast.  :D  Not to mention agile.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thana on November 24, 2012, 11:52:20 PM
It's shocking how much easier the game is compared to the last version due to the combination of player character skills, immensely faster crew level gains and (due to skills) increased OP to equip ships with. Obviously the balance is a work in progress and I fully trust Alex to work things out so things are right again, something this major is bound to upset it for a while.

I'm very intrigued to see where the game heads next and what goodies we'll get to play with the next patch. (Coming, of course, SoonTM.)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Needle_Fingers on November 25, 2012, 12:43:06 AM
... don't hear the drumroll/see the readout at the bottom ...

How about fireworks firing from your fleet when you level up?
There is fireworks?!? Just leveled up a few times (whilst looking for them) and didn't see them, maybe because i play in the overworld completely zoomed out it may not show. Right sorry, misread that. That could work to.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Xareh on November 25, 2012, 02:17:15 AM
... don't hear the drumroll/see the readout at the bottom ...

How about fireworks firing from your fleet when you level up?
There is fireworks?!? Just leveled up a few times (whilst looking for them) and didn't see them, maybe because i play in the overworld completely zoomed out it may not show. Right sorry, misread that. That could work to.
Needle_Fingers, you may have the name I never thought I'd ever see.
Carry on.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gabriel_Braun on November 25, 2012, 03:15:59 AM
Yay! \o/
Thanks Alex, early christmas present ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gaizokubanou on November 25, 2012, 05:11:30 AM
And since right now that interaction boils down to killing a bunch of enemy ships...

Anyway, very fair point.

Yep, like the whole industry part of character building being blank is a good example of this umm situation (wouldn't want to call it a problem since alpha is alpha).

I got 2 copies of this game for my friends, and only one played it so far but his impression is pretty much same with mine and bunch of others.  Awesome combat, wish there was more to do.

Moreeee Alex, please more give us more! :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Hyph_K31 on November 25, 2012, 06:50:28 AM
In time, dear sir. In time.

Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Pelhamds on November 25, 2012, 07:55:29 AM
In time, dear sir. In time.



wish there was a like button.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Tarran on November 25, 2012, 12:11:42 PM
Alex, minor suggestion: In the character leveling up screen, how about allowing right-clicking to revert a point for skills? I'm not sure about other people, but when using that screen I pretty much instinctively right-click the skill boxes in an attempt to revert point assignments every time I want to revert. :P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Hyph_K31 on November 25, 2012, 12:17:55 PM
^ plus
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 25, 2012, 03:09:58 PM
I really like the atmospheric battle soundtrack, but isn't it a bit quiet? I only notice it if I tune the overall volume really high or the effect volume really low.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 25, 2012, 03:28:48 PM
Alex, minor suggestion: In the character leveling up screen, how about allowing right-clicking to revert a point for skills? I'm not sure about other people, but when using that screen I pretty much instinctively right-click the skill boxes in an attempt to revert point assignments every time I want to revert. :P

Added to the list.

I really like the atmospheric battle soundtrack, but isn't it a bit quiet? I only notice it if I tune the overall volume really high or the effect volume really low.

You're not supposed to hear it over the FX - it's only there to provide an audio background for otherwise-quiet periods.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on November 25, 2012, 03:33:37 PM
Idea on that:  play a nice loud sting when entering / leaving combat, depending on situation / results, to get us into the mood.  I'd also like to hear something special when our flagship's destroyed the first time, as that's usually a very intense battle.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: erynr73 on November 25, 2012, 03:40:23 PM
So if one specs into tech with a side of combat and solos Hegemony's massive defense fleet with only a paragon (not that a paragon is an ONLY), is it overpowered (only took sliver of damage to hull) or just damn fun.

Okay I did take my faithful Hound with me to capture the first of four pts, but he didn't last long...I'll miss you Captain Meeko.

P.S.  Loving the new skills
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: dogboy123 on November 25, 2012, 04:01:46 PM
So if one specs into tech with a side of combat and solos Hegemony's massive defense fleet with only a paragon (not that a paragon is an ONLY), is it overpowered (only took sliver of damage to hull) or just damn fun.

Okay I did take my faithful Hound with me to capture the first of four pts, but he didn't last long...I'll miss you Captain Meeko.

P.S.  Loving the new skills
Meeko is the name of that stray dog is Skyrim :'(, that dog has a really sad backstory.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Pentakill on November 25, 2012, 05:12:50 PM
I still find myself grumbling every time I crack open another update and still find the Tri-Base barren of good capitals or cruisers.
Where's my Paragon, my Astral, and my Aurora? :(

Seeing them fly around and trying to take them is equally hopeless as the "drop" rate for ships is low enough that trying to pick one out is nigh impossible. I've tried several time to weaken a ship to breaking point to kill the crew off so when it leaves the battle I can capture it with "No Battle Ready Ships" but that's a slow, laborious, and often fruitless solution.

I know I can go into the code and change spawn rates for ships in the bases but i'd much rather see a chance in the game, without having to do it myself. Is the problem that i'm just impatient or have others felt this way too?

Perhaps in the next update a way to commission ships to be built? :D pretty please Alex, make this Starfaring Captain an even happier camper :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 25, 2012, 05:28:26 PM
When industry kicks in, you can build your own Onslaught, will most likely require you to chop of your hands and sell em to acquire the blueprint chip for it. as that chips prize tag will most likely "hopefully" have numbers in the millions.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: StahnAileron on November 25, 2012, 05:37:36 PM
I wound up having to save-scum capturing a Patagon via Auto-battles once I got it alone. I know save-scumming is a curse word to some users, but that's beside the point. It';s the easiest way to get s rare ship in vanilla SF (i.e. without mods). I did it mainly to see how messed up a Paragon is with most of my offense-focused skill maxed: 525 OP, reduced-OP weapons, increased DMG, improved shields, etc.

As a previous post mentions, it can solo an entire Heg Def Fleet by itself. Not quite steamroll it, though it definitely feels like it during the initial wave of fighters and frigates.

Actually, Alex, will the AI have access to the same skill-set players do at some point? The enemy fleets seem static (i.e. vanilla/basic) compared tothe progession the player gets. I'm just wondering if the AI might get some of the skills in another version of the game depending on player level and/or location (once interstellar travel is implemented).

...There was something else I wanted to ask, but now I forgot...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 25, 2012, 05:52:13 PM
Actually, Alex, will the AI have access to the same skill-set players do at some point? The enemy fleets seem static (i.e. vanilla/basic) compared tothe progession the player gets. I'm just wondering if the AI might get some of the skills in another version of the game depending on player level and/or location (once interstellar travel is implemented).

That's very likely. Having experienced (read: skilled, as in with various relevant skills) enemy captains seems like a good way to up the challenge - potentially dramatically - without resorting to having the enemies cheat or throw extremely large amounts of ships at you.


Perhaps in the next update a way to commission ships to be built? :D pretty please Alex, make this Starfaring Captain an even happier camper :)

Actually - this is probably not what you want to hear, but the update that makes significant inroads into the "real" campaign is likely to *not* have all the ships/weapons/etc available in it. It'll take more time to build out the world in such a way that all the content is available without feeling crammed in, the way things are now in the one system.

We'll have to see about the specifics, though.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 25, 2012, 05:53:56 PM
Why not make the system map bigger and add maybe 2, or even three stars in it?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 25, 2012, 05:56:07 PM
Let's put it this way - I expect the process to be more transformative than additive.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Ambient on November 25, 2012, 06:46:01 PM
I just wanted to say that after this last update the game has been even more of a blast to play.

Cant wait for further releases with more content!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on November 25, 2012, 06:48:44 PM
Let's put it this way - I expect the process to be more transformative than additive.
Just sort of as a temporary fix. :) Or you can reduce fleet speeds and planet sizes and cram more systems into that one. ;D

And yea, I'm enjoying the character update a lot!  Probably one of the best weekends, if not thanksgiving, I've had for a while. :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Pentakill on November 25, 2012, 07:11:50 PM
Perhaps in the next update a way to commission ships to be built? :D pretty please Alex, make this Starfaring Captain an even happier camper :)

Actually - this is probably not what you want to hear, but the update that makes significant inroads into the "real" campaign is likely to *not* have all the ships/weapons/etc available in it. It'll take more time to build out the world in such a way that all the content is available without feeling crammed in, the way things are now in the one system.

We'll have to see about the specifics, though.

So what I think you're saying is that we will need to travel multiple systems to acquire the needed blueprints, materials, and possibly stations to make a single ship? And the bigger and more advanced the ship the farther we'll have to go, the more we'll need, ect.?
I'm not sure if you're even close to an answer but i'll ask anyway, any idea what we might see in the first star system? And how many it might take to see larger ships and larger fleets?
And a final question, when we start every game, will we always see low tier Heg ships, then Independents, then Tri, cause I think it would be cool to choose where we start.
For example starting as:
1 a loner in a random location
2 a techy in Tri space
3 a trader in Independent space (if they have their own dedicated star systems)
4 a soldier in Heg space
5 a pirate is pirate space (if they have their own dedicated star systems)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 25, 2012, 07:18:40 PM
Now, those are exactly the kind of specifics I don't want to get into - that would only lead to trouble :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on November 25, 2012, 07:42:35 PM
My 2 cents on the topic of multiple systems (from the front page):

Quote
Cripple core world supply lines to cause chaos and create easy prey for piracy or bolster the rule of law and try to reverse the sector’s descent into anarchy

Impact the fate of the sector with your decisions and leave a permanent mark in the world

Thats what convinced me to buy the game. Right now the campaign is very static, but once its a complex, dynamic, and dying sector I think this game is going to go to a whole new level! (No pressure ;))
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on November 25, 2012, 08:32:11 PM
With the new iron mode there's that moment of success yo in capturing a paragon and when no having anywhere near the amount of Crew and then it getting sabatoged. It's / heart breaking really. Dang you Alex and your insanely addicting wonderfully evil game!  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: StahnAileron on November 26, 2012, 02:33:33 AM
Actually, Alex, will the AI have access to the same skill-set players do at some point? The enemy fleets seem static (i.e. vanilla/basic) compared tothe progession the player gets. I'm just wondering if the AI might get some of the skills in another version of the game depending on player level and/or location (once interstellar travel is implemented).

That's very likely. Having experienced (read: skilled, as in with various relevant skills) enemy captains seems like a good way to up the challenge - potentially dramatically - without resorting to having the enemies cheat or throw extremely large amounts of ships at you.

Oh, yay! I'm assuming EXP would scale with fleet captain/admiral "rank" (or level) for those that do have skills, right? Would they pull from the exact same skillset as the player? Or will they have access to unique skills, limited skills, or reduced bonus skills? I ask because I know of some games that give the AI only limited access to the same skillset as the player since the AI can react with no lag, making some skill combos kinda "broken" in AI hands.

Oh, and I just remembered what my forgotten question was: What will the EXP progression be like? Currently, I'm in the mid-40's. Going from 45 to 46 requires about 750k exp. The best EXP fight are Heg Def Fleets @ 40k-50k on average. Are you intending to make extreme high levels impractical or is this just a current side-effect of not having much of game implemented yet, so we're lacking sources of EXP from higher ranking sources (like the aforementioned "experienced enemy captains")? And in regards to EXP, is there a level cap? Or will this be like SPAZ where the level cap is only when the player decide to stop grinding? If it's tied to AP, I'm guessing the limit would be around the mid 70's from a practical viewpoint. (With only 4 aptitudes at 10 levels each, 40 AP is all you need to max them all, so level 80 would've been the absolute max for that. Lower since you have to account for starting points given to you.)

Lastly, will we be able to re-spec a character we've built up later? I sometimes want to try out new char builds, but don't necessarily like having to replay an entire game just to test out a char build. In-game, I can kinda see this as a special "memory adjustment service". Pay a price to have your char respec'ed, but you either have to forgo EXP for a little while while your "new memories" settle in or have a chance losing a level or two and the poins that go with them. (SPAZ had a in-game re-spec penalty of having to sacrifice new exp up to a set threshold before it starts counting towards your char progression again.)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 26, 2012, 09:48:25 AM
Oh, yay! I'm assuming EXP would scale with fleet captain/admiral "rank" (or level) for those that do have skills, right? Would they pull from the exact same skillset as the player? Or will they have access to unique skills, limited skills, or reduced bonus skills? I ask because I know of some games that give the AI only limited access to the same skillset as the player since the AI can react with no lag, making some skill combos kinda "broken" in AI hands.

Ah, once again, details I don't want to discuss until I'm reasonably sure how they'll actually work :) I will say that the "lag" issue seems more relevant for active skills, which there aren't any of.

Oh, and I just remembered what my forgotten question was: What will the EXP progression be like? Currently, I'm in the mid-40's. Going from 45 to 46 requires about 750k exp. The best EXP fight are Heg Def Fleets @ 40k-50k on average. Are you intending to make extreme high levels impractical or is this just a current side-effect of not having much of game implemented yet, so we're lacking sources of EXP from higher ranking sources (like the aforementioned "experienced enemy captains")? And in regards to EXP, is there a level cap? Or will this be like SPAZ where the level cap is only when the player decide to stop grinding? If it's tied to AP, I'm guessing the limit would be around the mid 70's from a practical viewpoint. (With only 4 aptitudes at 10 levels each, 40 AP is all you need to max them all, so level 80 would've been the absolute max for that. Lower since you have to account for starting points given to you.)

There's a soft cap. What you're describing is pretty much you running into it. Ultimately, I'd like the player to have ~25 AP total, from all sources, and around 4x that worth of SP. Maybe a *few* more if they play for an exceptionally long time. Basically, think of it this way - you get to max 2 aptitudes, and 4 skills within each (or however you want to distribute that). Beyond this, the gains will slow down dramatically, so anything there is more of an added bonus than anything you can reasonably plan on getting.

Lastly, will we be able to re-spec a character we've built up later? I sometimes want to try out new char builds, but don't necessarily like having to replay an entire game just to test out a char build. In-game, I can kinda see this as a special "memory adjustment service". Pay a price to have your char respec'ed, but you either have to forgo EXP for a little while while your "new memories" settle in or have a chance losing a level or two and the poins that go with them. (SPAZ had a in-game re-spec penalty of having to sacrifice new exp up to a set threshold before it starts counting towards your char progression again.)

Undecided. It gets tricky when dealing with skills that potentially allowed you to change the game world (such as, "you can command X more outposts now" - what happens when you respec? This isn't a concrete example, just an example of the type of issue that'll come up.) I'm leaning towards "can't respec", though. You'd still be able to cheat (edit the save file, or use some other possibly-built-in means) if all you're interested is in testing out a build.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Hypilein on November 26, 2012, 10:25:19 AM
What happened to the Flux Conduits Hull Mod. It doesn't seem to give me any more Venting. Maybe it doesn't stack with passive bonuses? Or maybe it's a bug?

Also, I'm not really sure, but sometimes Hullmods seem to be disappearing from my loadouts. I am not sure it is really happening or if I just became really clumsy and manage to click on the minus symbol to often...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Reshy on November 26, 2012, 10:30:52 AM
It only works for Active Venting, not Passive Venting.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: naufrago on November 26, 2012, 10:33:45 AM
What happened to the Flux Conduits Hull Mod. It doesn't seem to give me any more Venting. Maybe it doesn't stack with passive bonuses? Or maybe it's a bug?

Also, I'm not really sure, but sometimes Hullmods seem to be disappearing from my loadouts. I am not sure it is really happening or if I just became really clumsy and manage to click on the minus symbol to often...

If you use Front Shield Emitter or Omni Shield Emitter hullmods, they remove themselves anytime you remove another hullmod due to an issue with dependencies. If you use either of them, that would explain multiple hullmods being removed randomly.

EDIT: The problem with the Front Shield Emitter (and Omni Shield) hullmod is that you can't have a Front Shield Emitter on a ship with front shields. So anytime you remove a hullmod, the game checks the dependencies, sees that you're violating the rules by having a Front Shield Emitter on a ship with front shields, and removes it- even though the Front Shield Emitter is what gave it front shields. Alex knows about it, so don't worry.

If that's not the problem you're seeing, though, be sure to mention it. =)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Leyammon on November 26, 2012, 11:16:50 AM
I'm just waiting for an MMO that combines space and land battles perfectly and it's just not happening. The space travel of EVE with the space battles of something of a mix between FTL, Starfarer and X, planetary conflict and control like Planetary Annihilation and Sins of A Solar Empire, ground combat kind of like the Force Unleashed, Halo and Starforge, destruction physics for entire planets and any structure built on them like Red Faction: Guerilla, city and colony building like SimCity and the ability to land on planets directly and dynamically without loading anything... beautiful... All of those developers should team up and make perfection...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Hypilein on November 26, 2012, 11:49:18 AM
It only works for Active Venting, not Passive Venting.

Thanks for clearing that up. I guess the Hullmod was a little bit to obviously good before that.

If you use Front Shield Emitter or Omni Shield Emitter hullmods, they remove themselves anytime you remove another hullmod due to an issue with dependencies. If you use either of them, that would explain multiple hullmods being removed randomly.

EDIT: The problem with the Front Shield Emitter (and Omni Shield) hullmod is that you can't have a Front Shield Emitter on a ship with front shields. So anytime you remove a hullmod, the game checks the dependencies, sees that you're violating the rules by having a Front Shield Emitter on a ship with front shields, and removes it- even though the Front Shield Emitter is what gave it front shields. Alex knows about it, so don't worry.

If that's not the problem you're seeing, though, be sure to mention it. =)

Yes that is exactly the problem. Thanks.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Aleskander on November 26, 2012, 01:00:59 PM
I'm just waiting for an MMO that combines space and land battles perfectly and it's just not happening. The space travel of EVE with the space battles of something of a mix between FTL, Starfarer and X, planetary conflict and control like Planetary Annihilation and Sins of A Solar Empire, ground combat kind of like the Force Unleashed, Halo and Starforge, destruction physics for entire planets and any structure built on them like Red Faction: Guerilla, city and colony building like SimCity and the ability to land on planets directly and dynamically without loading anything... beautiful... All of those developers should team up and make perfection...

So, uh, Dust 514?
It pretty much describes what you want, within the boundaries of today's technology
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on November 26, 2012, 06:49:18 PM
I really like the atmospheric battle soundtrack, but isn't it a bit quiet? I only notice it if I tune the overall volume really high or the effect volume really low.

You're not supposed to hear it over the FX - it's only there to provide an audio background for otherwise-quiet periods.

Any chance of that changing? I'd really like to see (hear) a lot more from the audio department in this game.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 26, 2012, 06:59:25 PM
Any chance of that changing? I'd really like to see (hear) a lot more from the audio department in this game.

Not much, unless Stian feels it needs to. In this specific case, I don't think "more" is "better".
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on November 26, 2012, 07:25:04 PM
I'd be fine with around 8-10 tracks.

2 travel themes.
1 track for smaller battles w/o capturables.
4 tracks for larger battles with the capturables. One for when battling pirates, Tri, Lud, and Hege fleets.
1 track for menus like refitting, buying goods, character screens - thats really catchy and can be listened to forever.
1 alienish track for when weird shnizz goes down. ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Plasmatic on November 27, 2012, 01:31:35 AM
Maybe I'm missing something, but where is Expanded Magazine hullmod now post-patch? I can't find it under any of the skills?

Patch notes don't seem to mention it, and a quick forum search didn't turn up any useful answers..

Am I just blind?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Verrius on November 27, 2012, 01:40:25 AM
I don't believe you need a skill for Expanded Magazines. I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Hyph_K31 on November 27, 2012, 01:41:39 AM
I'm pretty sure it's one of the few you get from the get go.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Plasmatic on November 27, 2012, 02:22:38 AM
I'm pretty sure it's one of the few you get from the get go.

that's odd. it's not in my hullmods list.. Seen ships with it though, so it works, its just not in my refit screen list.. Hmm.

Likely to be one of my many mods that is interfering.. many of them haven't been updated to 0.54 yet so could be some conflicts or something.

Any ideas what could cause it? just somewhere for me to start looking would be nice :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Hyph_K31 on November 27, 2012, 03:08:57 AM
I'm afraid that I don't really have much of an idea o what might be causing it.  Although I have noticed that some ships appear to have certain hull mods available to them with having the necessary skill...

Whether of not this is a bug, I do not know.

In my last save, most of my ships had extended mags, and I don't recall ever unlocking it.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 27, 2012, 03:14:28 AM
I always have the extended mags mod from the start, and i pick "something else" x2,

These are my confirmed hull mods you start with.

Accelerated Shields

Extended Magazines

Blast Doors

Unstable Injector

Dedicated Targeting Core


Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Movementcat on November 27, 2012, 04:13:38 AM
Great Patch ! im Level 40 and have only 3 Ships Paragon, Hyperion and i dont remember the name. And i own EVERY Pirate Fleet or Tachyon fleet, only Hegemony Main deff is a Problem.

But i think Level up need a bit to long. But anyways nice Patch. And i saw the Sneak Peak on the SkillTree:-)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on November 27, 2012, 05:01:44 AM
You have to remember the leveling system is going to want to try to last close to the games "end" ( according to Alex in an interview there will be a point in which the sector just dies out. But you can still play in it. So no absolute end?)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 27, 2012, 05:02:57 AM
Level up faster? are you mental? i hit lvl 50 in one day, its good as it is, it should be slowed down if nothing else. leveling up to fast just removes the joy of achieving a new level which completely removes the purpose of the leveling system.

And a bit of Off topic... OH YEAH I'm an admiral! Private army and my own sailing ship waiting for me as well as a golden cup of coffee!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 27, 2012, 05:52:58 AM
Level up faster? are you mental? i hit lvl 50 in one day, its good as it is, it should be slowed down if nothing else. leveling up to fast just removes the joy of achieving a new level which completely removes the purpose of the leveling system.
Look his post:
Great Patch ! im Level 40 and have only 3 Ships Paragon, Hyperion and i dont remember the name. And i own EVERY Pirate Fleet or Tachyon fleet, only Hegemony Main deff is a Problem.

But i think Level up need a bit to long. But anyways nice Patch. And i saw the Sneak Peak on the SkillTree:-)
I think he is trying to say that leveling should be a bit longer.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Leyammon on November 27, 2012, 06:55:51 AM
I'm just waiting for an MMO that combines space and land battles perfectly and it's just not happening. The space travel of EVE with the space battles of something of a mix between FTL, Starfarer and X, planetary conflict and control like Planetary Annihilation and Sins of A Solar Empire, ground combat kind of like the Force Unleashed, Halo and Starforge, destruction physics for entire planets and any structure built on them like Red Faction: Guerilla, city and colony building like SimCity and the ability to land on planets directly and dynamically without loading anything... beautiful... All of those developers should team up and make perfection...

So, uh, Dust 514?
It pretty much describes what you want, within the boundaries of today's technology

I know what Dust is but it's not what I'm waiting for.
It's more of an expansion pack to be honest and you have to switch from pc to PS3 to even play it. I'm waiting for something that is literally everything on that list.
Doesn't need great graphics... just sort of average... ish... that will be the day...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 27, 2012, 07:09:42 AM
Hmm... Need a bit to long... O.o? it looks to me that he thinks leveling up takes to long but i could be wrong there, in that case im sorry.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 27, 2012, 07:34:07 AM
I think that leveling is way to fast  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 27, 2012, 07:38:38 AM
It is isn't it? but that's only until you hit lvl 40 tho... then it REALLY slows down... i took the time, it took me as long or even longer to get from 40-50 as it took to get from 1-40
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 27, 2012, 08:10:16 AM
But lvl 40 i one or two days is a really to fast. It's 20 AP and 80SP right? That is 2 max out aptitudes and 8 max out skills. In 2 days. Too fast. For me at least.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on November 27, 2012, 08:27:28 AM
It will almost surely slow down as time goes on. XP gain will only increase as more ways to get it are implemented. It's probably just the way it is so things can be tested quickly.

First pass and all that.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 27, 2012, 08:29:35 AM
Yes, way too fast, but that is true for every aspect of the game, like obtaining ships and money. Corvus is very condensed, content and time wise. It would be boring otherwise, considering there's not that much to see yet. I expect everything to run much slower once the universe grows.

That's one of the downsides of an open paid beta, Alex can't just try to balance everything towards the end goal he has in mind but also has to think about how things can be kept interesting in the meantime.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 27, 2012, 08:32:01 AM
I concur with you two  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: LazyWizard on November 27, 2012, 09:39:15 AM
I love this update. Iron mode made combat tense again, and with the new skill trees my play style (very small fleets) feels like a viable choice rather than artificially limiting myself - Technology is awesome. :)

Would it be possible to sneak an isInCampaign() method in with the next hotfix? This would make it much easier to avoid NPEs in missions for hullmods/combat abilities that assume the existence of a player fleet/cargo/faction relations/etc.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: StahnAileron on November 27, 2012, 05:21:54 PM
[...] the downsides of an open paid beta [...]

We're not even that far yet. The game is still in alpha, afterall. Beta implies all of the main game is implemented and is under testing for bugs, tweaks, adjustments, balancing, and minor feature additions/changes.

As for the EXP thing: yes, it's fast up until you hit the soft level cap (the point where the EXP needed/level starts to sky rocket). My first char hit level 46. It will now take me ~20 Heg Def Fleets, killing ALL ships, to hit 47.

BTW, EXP is tied to fleet point cost. 1 FP = 250XP, for anyone curious. This is the reason why Heg Def and the various Supply fleets are the best things to stalk in the current "late game" (LVL 30 or so and up.) They have the highest base FP cost and are scheduled to appear consistently. (I've started judging my leveling rate as needing "X number of Y type fleets" instead of the raw XP required.) The start of the game levels you fairly well to get you started (Buffalo mk2 is completely living up to its purpose now, ain't it? ^_~) I think once more gameplay is added, the leveling will scale back and slow down once in the mid levels (like starting in the double digits.) On the other hand, it depends on how much content will be in the game and what Alex plans as an average single play session. Most of the JRPG's I've played do about 1 level for every 30 minutes of standard game play (i.e. no purposeful grinding, no avoiding every fight if possible.) They scale back once you hit the intended "end game level" you should be at to beat the game without TOO much difficulty. After that point, you need to find XP bonus multipliers, a hidden dungeon, or something along those lines to efficiently level grind.

Example: ToG:F for PS3 requires you to be either in the post-game bonus dungeon or in the end-game area of the epilogue story arc on MAX difficulty to max your char levels (200 in this game). If you didn't, it takes quite a while to max out. Funny enough, this doesn't take into account maxing your stats and skills, though. That was another, separate system. It ran in parallel to that standard leveling system.

Anyway, the level pacing in the current build is probably on purpose to help test skills: how strong they are, what level featurews should be available at, etc. Alex will probably revamp the skill system at some point for better balancing. Now would be a good time to get feedback on the basic system by letting players access the features quickly (especially without a respec function, so if you want to test out a different build, you need a brand new char to build up.)

It works for what thestate the game is in now. Never forget: the game is still under development and is nowhere near a finished product.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on November 27, 2012, 11:03:48 PM
well leveling is very good there might be few more perks to invent but thats about it...however i think that levels before lvl40 should take a bit longer say to get....say between lvl 10 and 40 and level after 40 could be a bit faster so it doesnt take as someone said 20sys defs ;D 15 should suffice i think 8) but we will see how the campaign will turn out...there could be a lot more to kill too
but i dont know the formula for exp required per level does anyone of you know where is it stored?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gaizokubanou on November 28, 2012, 12:38:51 AM
I think that leveling is way to fast  ;D

Every progression (well, we only have 2 as of now, level and fleet/ship size) in current version is way too ridiculously fast because right now the game have zero pacing.  Every single object being crammed into single system with single method (combat) of item acquisition can do that.

I imagine that in more complete version of the campaign, battles will be smaller early on and less numerous, with ship captures being rarer with lot of non-combat activities for players to sink their time into for overall better pacing.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sunfire on November 28, 2012, 05:21:40 AM
I think that leveling is way to fast  ;D

Every progression (well, we only have 2 as of now, level and fleet/ship size) in current version is way too ridiculously fast because right now the game have zero pacing.  Every single object being crammed into single system with single method (combat) of item acquisition can do that.

I imagine that in more complete version of the campaign, battles will be smaller early on and less numerous, with ship captures being rarer with lot of non-combat activities for players to sink their time into for overall better pacing.

As well, I have a feeling that the spawn rates will be much lower when there are multiple systems and so there wont be so much fighting in certain systems, where you can trade etc...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 28, 2012, 06:20:06 AM
High level systems will probably be war torn with many large elite fleets banging their heads together while the low ones contains pirates that doesn't know how to fit their ships right and are generally suicidal. ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 28, 2012, 07:30:55 AM
Hey Alex, a long-term Question if I may: Do you envision the modding tools in the final game to be sufficient for a modder to tell a story? Regardless of form: mission, campaign, quest. That's what I would really love to do in a mod.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 28, 2012, 08:47:50 AM
Hey Alex, a long-term Question if I may: Do you envision the modding tools in the final game to be sufficient for a modder to tell a story? Regardless of form: mission, campaign, quest. That's what I would really love to do in a mod.

You know, I really can't say just yet. What's moddable is dependent on what the core game is going to require in terms of architecture - my general point of view is that Starfarer is a game rather than an engine. Which is a bit of a "duh".

That said, I'd very much like to allow that. And as much other stuff as I can :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 28, 2012, 09:14:59 AM
Hey Alex, a long-term Question if I may: Do you envision the modding tools in the final game to be sufficient for a modder to tell a story? Regardless of form: mission, campaign, quest. That's what I would really love to do in a mod.

You know, I really can't say just yet. What's moddable is dependent on what the core game is going to require in terms of architecture - my general point of view is that Starfarer is a game rather than an engine. Which is a bit of a "duh".

That said, I'd very much like to allow that. And as much other stuff as I can :)


That reads as if you are not yet decided if your game will feature any major narrative elements. Well, then now I have double reason to hope that it will :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 28, 2012, 10:36:18 AM
I think it would be cool if Starfarer's narrative followed a structure of branching missions and stuff driven by the player's failure or success. Or if it was entirely emergent, as in a roguelike. Sometimes a game creates its own stories and characters - how many of you haven't grown ridiculously attached to your soldiers in xcom, or ascribed some horrible, nasty personality to a randomly spawned lich in dungeon crawl, and so on? Given the fact that AI captains are supposed to have personalities, there could be at least some of this, down the road.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on November 28, 2012, 11:16:48 AM
alex: regarding the exp have you thought about some ratio system when it comes to the size of opposing fleets? i mean you should get more exp if your 2 frigates with 6FP total beat a 12FP cruiser than if you roflstomp the same cruiser with a 20FP onslaught.....
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Talkie Toaster on November 28, 2012, 11:42:09 AM
alex: regarding the exp have you thought about some ratio system when it comes to the size of opposing fleets? i mean you should get more exp if your 2 frigates with 6FP total beat a 12FP cruiser than if you roflstomp the same cruiser with a 20FP onslaught.....
It makes more sense to do it by the level of captain the fleet has. A level 40 PC who's specced for combat in a decent frigate or destroyer can kill cruisers as effectively as a level 40 PC with a fleet.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 28, 2012, 11:46:46 AM
alex: regarding the exp have you thought about some ratio system when it comes to the size of opposing fleets? i mean you should get more exp if your 2 frigates with 6FP total beat a 12FP cruiser than if you roflstomp the same cruiser with a 20FP onslaught.....

Yeah, I'll definitely adjust the calculation. In particular, rewarding a greater challenge seems like a good idea.

It makes more sense to do it by the level of captain the fleet has. A level 40 PC who's specced for combat in a decent frigate or destroyer can kill cruisers as effectively as a level 40 PC with a fleet.

Right, that's the tricky part - figuring out how challenging it actually was. The fact that you lost ships doing it is one metric for that, actually :)

As for level, that may not work so well if the PC is specced in industry. Besides, being higher-level already makes advancement slower by virtue of it requiring more XP. Making combat XP gain inversely-level-based seems redundant.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on November 28, 2012, 02:06:33 PM
I know that the relative weakness of the AI fleets is just  until it gets skills, but would you consider a little temporarily solution for making it respect player level in the upcoming patch? Just something like for every 10 levels the fleet is seen as 50% bigger. It feels really weird right now to be constantly attacked by opponents that are no more than a 30 sec nuisance.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on November 28, 2012, 03:26:32 PM
That can all get addressed by mods or by a relatively easy change to the battlefield code, getting rid of the dribbling reinforcements problem.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on November 28, 2012, 08:18:17 PM
It would be nice to have a readout under your character screen showing a list of the different bonuses you get from your stuff.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: firstattak1 on November 28, 2012, 09:29:00 PM
So I was thinking maybe some items like fleet points shouldn't be gained trough perks but through natural leveling up, because at this rate you have to put points into leadership otherwise your stuck with only a few ships before your too big. I ran into this problem after trying to do a technology build, I can only have 1 cruiser and 2 frigates, which is really rough, so now I have to put points into leadership to get more fleet. So just make it so every level you get 2-7 fleet points.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on November 28, 2012, 09:52:16 PM
That's the choice you have to make. Do you want a few highly advanced ships, or a lot of not so advanced ships.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 28, 2012, 10:28:51 PM
That's the choice you have to make. Do you want a few highly advanced ships, or a lot of not so advanced ships.

+10
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Mattk50 on November 28, 2012, 10:55:27 PM
guh. not a fan of the limit as is. mount and blade's party restrictions were bad enough.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on November 28, 2012, 11:52:47 PM
hmmm perhaps you could get one free FP every 2 levels just like the aptitudes...but make it every odd one instead....you wouldnt get all that many and if you want a large fleet you have to put points in the command?(the green apt) anyway
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Uomoz on November 29, 2012, 02:11:13 AM
Limitless progression is something very common in the "new" wave of casual games. Choices and limits are what makes games hard, challenging and in the end fun, imo.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Mattk50 on November 29, 2012, 02:29:36 AM
Limits such as "this is your speed limit" and "you cant fit more than this many guns on this" is one thing. But the whole fleet point system just feels arbitrary. I still think that down the line this system will be able to be wholly replaced by more flexible systems, backed by an ingame economy or support something like that, and the leadership progression can be moved to more stuff such as keeping down compounded costs on running a fleet of a certain size.  (this already kinda but not really happens, because its more of a hard cap in disguise and costs multiply out of control too quickly, and that soft cap stays stationary.)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on November 29, 2012, 03:03:53 AM
Limitless progression is something very common in the "new" wave of casual games. Choices and limits are what makes games hard, challenging and in the end fun, imo.
well as mattk50 already said we have limits and quite hard ones youre simply not going to turn a lasher into a battleships no matter how hard you try and how much exp and money you invest into it
that said youd only get what.....20? extra FP with if you get one free FP every odd level in your average game because after lvl 40 the soft cap kicks in and its rather hard to level up faster
you will still be rather limited when it comes to fleet size but not severely hampered
also the main source of firepower will still be your flagship unless you train nothing but industry and command apts and skills
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 29, 2012, 03:46:47 AM
I think Getting FP every odd level would be ***, we already have 180 FP maxed out and you start with 35 which is more then enough, and that is at like level 20 which takes an hour or so to reach unless you dropped your first aptitudes in leadership when you made your character, you DON'T need more.(although it would be nice to have a humongous fleet ;D)

and by the time you are level 40 which takes half a day if you are fast, you will have 2 aptitude trees with maxed out skills you need from those tree, so in truth, you don't need that extra odd SP at all. and at level 60, if anyone bothers to push themselves that far, you will have all and every skill maxed.

so i don't really understand the point with your 3 comments above suggestion.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 29, 2012, 04:54:55 AM
Level progress won't be fast as now. I do not think that other aptitudes and skills have such big influence as Leadership. So with maxed out Leadership and skills you have 180FP (right?) and with maxed out combat you have 38FP? I do not think that fleet with 38FP can beat up fleet with 180FP. Leadership vs Technology = Leadership wins.

It looks like that game forces you to invest in Leadership.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: zakastra on November 29, 2012, 05:20:29 AM
Level progress won't be fast as now. I do not think that other aptitudes and skills have such big influence as Leadership. So with maxed out Leadership and skills you have 180FP (right?) and with maxed out combat you have 38FP? I do not think that fleet with 38FP can beat up fleet with 180FP. Leadership vs Technology = Leadership wins.

It looks like that game forces you to invest in Leadership.


You wont be able to have anywhere close to 180 FP deployed at the same time, The big fleet will have a hell of a lot of reserves, sure,  but fill out all of technology and Combat and then carefully outfit a paragon, and you will be astounded by how ruthlessly it tears up everything.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 29, 2012, 05:27:33 AM
You wont be able to have anywhere close to 180 FP deployed at the same time, The big fleet will have a hell of a lot of reserves, sure,  but fill out all of technology and Combat and then carefully outfit a paragon, and you will be astounded by how ruthlessly it tears up everything.
Lol i forgot about that.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: firstattak1 on November 29, 2012, 06:22:05 AM
An I the only one who doesn't think leveling is really fast? I have been playing for the past 4 days and I am only 18~? I'm not saying its fine where it is but you guys act like its going extremely fast.
Which is why I made my segestion
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 29, 2012, 07:07:35 AM
I got to level 44 in one day, if you look in discussions/General discussions (don't know which one) thread, "your current campaign level and character" you will see it.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Aleskander on November 29, 2012, 07:45:00 AM
An I the only one who doesn't think leveling is really fast? I have been playing for the past 4 days and I am only 18~? I'm not saying its fine where it is but you guys act like its going extremely fast.
Which is why I made my segestion

How long do you play per day?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on November 29, 2012, 09:02:35 AM
That can all get addressed by mods or by a relatively easy change to the battlefield code, getting rid of the dribbling reinforcements problem.

I've seen you mention this a couple of times, I think. Could you elaborate a bit on the specific circumstances? I have a hard time seeing how it would happen.

Let's say you've got the enemy reduced to 40 FP maximum deployed. They either 1) don't have any ships out on the map, and would thus deploy 40 FP worth at once - which may still be insufficient - or 2) they *do* have some ships out, so the choice they face is abandoning/retreating those ships vs trying to reinforce as they can. Neither option is a particularly good one, and it seems to be an issue with it being a lopsided battle more than anything else.

It would be nice to have a readout under your character screen showing a list of the different bonuses you get from your stuff.

Hmm. Those types of things sound really nice in theory, but end up really cluttered. It's tough to present that much information well.

I think the skill screen itself actually accomplishes this goal, anyway - it gives you a high-level overview of the bonuses by showing which skills you *have*, and then you can drill down into the specifics by mousing over each one. Any kind of "skill digest" would probably have to make use of similar mechanics.



Re: fleet points - the point is that you do have a choice of whether you're able to command a large fleet, and it's not something you just get by playing longer. On the flip side, this means you're not forced to command a large fleet if that's not your style - "forced" because it'd frequently be a more effective option. Because of this, piloted-ship-only skills can also be powerful enough since they can reasonably assume either a smaller, or a less tricked-out fleet. As for being "arbitrary", they're no more so than hitpoints or damage values. As hitpoints are a representation of your ship's overall structural integrity, fleet points are a representation of an aspect of your character's command ability.

In purely pragmatic terms, the game's being designed around certain fleet sizes. Having a huge fleet that steamrolls everything would ultimately be detrimental to the experience. Further still, if you really want to try this out, just for fun, far be it from me to tell you you can't - it's trivially easy to edit the starting fleet point values in settings.json. Obviously, the game isn't going to be balanced around that.


Limits such as "this is your speed limit" and "you cant fit more than this many guns on this" is one thing. But the whole fleet point system just feels arbitrary. I still think that down the line this system will be able to be wholly replaced by more flexible systems, backed by an ingame economy or support something like that, and the leadership progression can be moved to more stuff such as keeping down compounded costs on running a fleet of a certain size.  (this already kinda but not really happens, because its more of a hard cap in disguise and costs multiply out of control too quickly, and that soft cap stays stationary.)

Yeah, something like that is a possibility.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: firstattak1 on November 29, 2012, 09:59:25 AM
I see what you guys mean. It's just I havnt been leveling up extremely fast, and I feel that it's a waist of a point, but I want a bigger fleet, well just as a suggestion that ill leave, how about you buy reaserch to make your fleet bigger? Like when industry gets added? Or maybe your  personnel makes it larger? Because to me it doesn't feel right to keep it a perk.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Luringen on November 29, 2012, 10:25:41 AM
@firstattak1: Again, you can't both have large buffs to individual ships and to fleet size. You either go with a large fleet where you get few bonuses to your controlled ship, or you buff your ship. Like Alex said, this gives us who prefer smaller fleets a fighting chance. If you had been able to have both, a large fleet with many buffs, you would be overpowered. If you want to just own larger fleets, you get officers for it, and send them off on their own.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 29, 2012, 10:28:19 AM
@firstattak1: Again, you can't both have large buffs to individual ships and to fleet size. You either go with a large fleet where you get few bonuses to your controlled ship, or you buff your ship. Like Alex said, this gives us who prefer smaller fleets a fighting chance. If you had been able to have both, a large fleet with many buffs, you would be overpowered. If you want to just own larger fleets, you get officers for it, and send them off on their own.

Exactly so.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on November 29, 2012, 11:00:59 AM
i think the level progression as is is just about fast enough but well see in the final games the problem is some one us have A LOT of time on their hands *looks at ValkyriaL* while there are many people who simply dont have much than say 1-2 hours a day....so it must be really hard to say which group has more rights ;) there could be a simple choice just like with the ironman mode where youd get a certain exp multiplier say 1,0; 0,5; and for those really hardcore games we could have 0,2 or even 0,1
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 29, 2012, 11:56:05 AM
Quote
the problem is some one us have A LOT of time on their hands *looks at ValkyriaL*

Oi, what do you mean by that? i play starfarer 4 hours tops.  ::) got school duties you know.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on November 29, 2012, 01:10:06 PM
Quote
the problem is some one us have A LOT of time on their hands *looks at ValkyriaL*

Oi, what do you mean by that? i play starfarer 4 hours tops.  ::) got school duties you know.
i mean nothing at all ;) just saying some of us have more time than others and 4 hours i still more than what others may have ;)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on November 29, 2012, 01:13:29 PM
OMG! So i was testing My (gauss/HD combo)  Conquest vs vanilla Conquest. Here it is:
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/Wb9lc.png?1)
[close]
And it act funny. He gos left right then try to hit him with nose PD's. So i remove frontal pd start fight again and same thing... It feel somewhat meh. And then i got an idea. Lets put him against 2x Enforcer (one with spammer rockets and other with Sabot and Reaper), 2x Lasher and 1xMule. And then OMGOMGOMGWTFOMGWTFOMG!
HE KICK THEIR METAL BEHIND TO NEXT GALAXY!!!! (ok he didn't because he's left without ammo  ;D ;D )
Funny movement, left-right now looked like dance. Damn i couldn't pilot that ship better  ;D

Great job on AI man.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: firstattak1 on November 29, 2012, 03:05:35 PM
I do see your point, well I guess it's just me...so I play 1-4 hours a day. And I'm still level 18~ guess its just me....
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on November 29, 2012, 03:13:06 PM
Farm small ships to build a reasonable fleet and then sit on top the pirate planet, you will be level 40 before you know it.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: naufrago on November 29, 2012, 04:12:44 PM
If you have high-tech ships, auto-resolve is your friend
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: xanderh on November 30, 2012, 12:51:44 AM
So far, I haven't lost a single ship, and I'm primarily fighting the large pirate fleets. My fleet consists of an apogee, a medusa and two tempests, with only enough points spent in leadership to be within the FP limit, with the rest spent on gunnery, speed, flux, and ordnance points.

The game is a lot better now, and is a lot of fun to play. The leveling feels about right. It's not too fast, but doesn't take too long either.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on November 30, 2012, 08:54:47 AM
If you have high-tech ships, auto-resolve is your friend
works with big ships as well and they dont need to be high tech...i can autoresolve pretty much anything with my onslaught/hyperion combo
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on November 30, 2012, 01:05:39 PM
So far, I haven't lost a single ship, and I'm primarily fighting the large pirate fleets. My fleet consists of an apogee, a medusa and two tempests, with only enough points spent in leadership to be within the FP limit, with the rest spent on gunnery, speed, flux, and ordnance points.

The game is a lot better now, and is a lot of fun to play. The leveling feels about right. It's not too fast, but doesn't take too long either.
I use the same build but with 2 medusas ( lost my 3rd on iron mode)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: StahnAileron on December 01, 2012, 09:01:22 PM
Isn't the current FP limit only 120?

25FP (Start) + 20FP (2x10) Fleet Aptitude Bonus + 50FP (5x10) Fleet Logistics (MAXED) + 25FP Coordinated Maneuvers (@LVL5)

Or was the prior discussion taking into account the 50% leeway before accidents come into play? (I'm assuming yes since the number stated are 37 and 180.)

Personally, rather than an abstracted Fleet Point limit system, I've always thought of integrating the fleet size limit into the basic history/mechanics of the game via required comm channels between vessels. Though it probably wouldn't work for Starfarer with the way it's currently set up. The tought would be that ships can either use up "Fleet Channels" or actually PROVIDE Fleet Channels. I.E. You can PURCHASE ships (Command Ships) that let you expand your fleet size (or "coordinate your fleet" in-universe). You can't trade off OP and other stats in return for the expanded fleet bonus.

Problem is it complicates the vessel deployment system for battles: would you NEED to deploy the command vessels in order to maximize your fleet deplyment in a fight? Or can you withold them to prevent their possible destruction in a fight? If you HAVE to deploy them, how would you revamp the deployment system in place now to take that into account? (I can SORTA imagine a way, but it's a bit complicated for me to explain right now...) It's this complication and conflict with the current system (plus balancing) that prevents me from making it a real suggestion.

Still, it WOULD be sorta nice to have some sort of PASSIVE FP gain simply from leveling up. Though an extra 20FP (Level 40 char, 1FP/2 LVLs) would be mildly OP for investor of solely Tech and Combat Aptitudes, so I understand the choice involved there to balance it out a bit. Combat aptitudes mainly make you a one-ship armada. Tech Aptitudes enhance a whole fleet (plus a few player-only bonuses). A Fleet/Tech build is completely viable, really. The current soft cap for levels only lets you truly pursue 2 aptitudes to master.

Though I'm thinking maybe a 1FP/4 LVLs bonus might be viable. Actually, WILL there be ANY passive bonus given to the play simply for leveling up? Or will the system be entirely base on point distribution? (I'm also kinda worried about the point distro once industry comes into play. Current point amounts work VERY well for building a force to be reckoned with. Once industry comes into play, that's another aptitude contending for points that, with 4 available aptitude to play with, will feel VERY limited/precious. Especially with the unlikely appearance of char respec'ing.)

Also, any chance there will be campaign missions/quests that either grant more player assignable APs/SPs or ones that will automatically level a specific, fixed skill (or freely assignable by the player, but limited to a specific aptitude)?
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on December 02, 2012, 12:12:02 AM
(I'm assuming yes since the number stated are 37 and 180.)
You are assuming right.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ValkyriaL on December 02, 2012, 03:26:38 AM
Yeah its going to be limited, so what? that's the whole point... if you want to go industry and build ships and trade, your going to have to give up something else to do that, you cant have them all because that would be ***.

As i have said before and a few others, Passive FP/SP per level is a no no, if you want a big fleet that roflstomps everything, you go leadership/tech, you want a very powerful fleet of about 5-6 ships you go Tech/combat and if you want to build stuff you go industry.

And you don't have to re spec, at level 60, you have 3/4 aptitudes completely maxed out with all skills at lvl 10, i know because i dragged my butt all the way there.

About command ships, i think a thread about those were started but never really got anywhere.

If they generated FP, first of all, that means you can have an infinite amount of command ships and a fleet that expands into infinity, wouldn't really work, even if they cost half of the FP they generate, that means that you can have another command ship in that extra 5 FP the other one unlocks, and that would also expand into infinity, if they were to cost more than that, they wouldn't have any good purpose and nobody would buy them,

If they generated SP, yeah.. imagine yourself you have 1 capital ship and 10 command ships, you have all skills in the game and your one capital ship can single handed, destroy the SDF or any other endgame fleet all by itself, (not that it cant do that now) and that's going to need some nerfing, the skills are to powerful.

I have never written this much in one comment, hope it makes sense. ;)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: StahnAileron on December 02, 2012, 07:02:31 AM
If they generated FP, first of all, that means you can have an infinite amount of command ships and a fleet that expands into infinity, wouldn't really work, even if they cost half of the FP they generate, that means that you can have another command ship in that extra 5 FP the other one unlocks, and that would also expand into infinity, if they were to cost more than that, they wouldn't have any good purpose and nobody would buy them,

That is true. At the same time, you'll have a practical supply/cargo limit to contend with (fuel as well once travel gets implemented). I get your point though, but there are technically other aspect of the mechanics that would limit the FP/ship count of fleet. Supply could be one of them. Eventually you'll be feeding crew at a rate too high to sustain with either by cargo capacity or sheer supply, uh, supply within game. Though granted, with the current numbers, that still won't really work. You'd get get a MASSIVE fleet before the supply issue gets truly impractical. (It's pretty generous at 100 crew/supply/day.)

But yeah, with current mechanics in place, it wouldn't work and I'm pretty aware of that fact. (It'd only work in other games that have a material cost for ships, kinda like Homeworld.) The only other option would be to make command ships VERY rare to buy, hard as hell to capture, and EXPENSIVE as crap to manufacture (with the blueprint being nuts to acquire in the first place).

BTW, LVL 60 would net you all (3) current Aptitudes maxed, but not all skills maxed. That's only ~120SP and there's more than 12 skills total... Plus the XP requirements past about LVL46 make it fairly impractical for all but hardcore players to attain higher levels. I myself am resorting to mods that introduce more factions and higher spawn rates to help mitigate that currently. Also, you do get passive SP per level. It's part of the system. 2SP/LVL, no? The FP thing I would go for is a minor one. 45FP @ LVL40 with no investment in Fleet Apts is kinda wrong. But I think 30-35FP at LVL40 is reasonable.

Lastly, did someone mention command ships that generate SP? I know I didn't. That'd be just utterly wrong...
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: WhiteAvatar on December 02, 2012, 03:14:43 PM
Amazing game man, here's to the successful release!

Saw some youtube videos on this game and I bought it, and I'm glad I did  ;D

Cheers!  ;)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on December 02, 2012, 03:26:54 PM
Amazing game man, here's to the successful release!

Saw some youtube videos on this game and I bought it, and I'm glad I did  ;D

Cheers!  ;)

Welcome to the forum! .o/
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thana on December 03, 2012, 12:32:08 AM
Amazing game man, here's to the successful release!

Saw some youtube videos on this game and I bought it, and I'm glad I did  ;D

Cheers!  ;)

Oh, agreed! I got my money's worth from the game in the first month alone.

That was well over a year ago.  ;D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Ronald Klein on December 03, 2012, 06:11:50 AM
Amazing game man, here's to the successful release!

Saw some youtube videos on this game and I bought it, and I'm glad I did  ;D

Cheers!  ;)

Oh, agreed! I got my money's worth from the game in the first month alone.

That was well over a year ago.  ;D


If any game deserves 50$ or euros when it's done it is this one,not the "AAA" titles that you get bored of in one week.I've been playing this baby for nearly a year now and it is still awesome.Considering it's alpha state...That's pretty damned good.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: xanderh on December 03, 2012, 06:47:21 AM
Amazing game man, here's to the successful release!

Saw some youtube videos on this game and I bought it, and I'm glad I did  ;D

Cheers!  ;)

Oh, agreed! I got my money's worth from the game in the first month alone.

That was well over a year ago.  ;D


If any game deserves 50$ or euros when it's done it is this one,not the "AAA" titles that you get bored of in one week.I've been playing this baby for nearly a year now and it is still awesome.Considering it's alpha state...That's pretty damned good.


Agree with these guys. So far, the only games that can compare to this one in terms of cost/hours spent are Minecraft and Garrys Mod.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Aleskander on December 03, 2012, 12:41:11 PM

Agree with these guys. So far, the only games that can compare to this one in terms of cost/hours spent are Minecraft and Garrys Mod.



KSP, M&B, EVE online, and Dwarf fortress
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: xanderh on December 04, 2012, 12:28:29 AM

Agree with these guys. So far, the only games that can compare to this one in terms of cost/hours spent are Minecraft and Garrys Mod.



KSP, M&B, EVE online, and Dwarf fortress
I purposely excluded EVE Online, because it's an MMO. I pay 15 euro every month, and don't play several hundred hours every month, so it's nowhere close to any of the ones I mentioned.
Now, KSP and M&B, I have played for a few hours each, but not even close to the amount of hours I've played the other games I mentioned. Can't say anything about Dwarf Fortress, haven't played that game at all.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cruis.In on December 05, 2012, 11:49:43 AM
this game is taking too long! I want a universe to explore!

I feel as though sometimes this game is suffering from the Infinity syndrome, where the guy spent years trying to perfect, how a planet looks, how space backgrounds and particle dust and nebula looks, and forgot ;the game;

so far starfarer has great combat, excellent gameplay in this regard, and design goals, but what game is there?

Need more to be held!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on December 05, 2012, 11:59:01 AM
Perhaps the next patch can use some code akin the Vacuum mod, which makes a whole new system each time.

With more restraints and such, of course.  Like there's can't be 5 pirate bases one one map. :P
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on December 05, 2012, 12:19:16 PM
I feel as though sometimes this game is suffering from the Infinity syndrome, where the guy spent years trying to perfect, how a planet looks, how space backgrounds and particle dust and nebula looks, and forgot ;the game;
That is not what is happening here. Every major patch bring something new. I do not see "Infinity syndrome", here.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cruis.In on December 05, 2012, 04:54:53 PM
this games stuff is so good its crying out for a sandbox Smiley
and multiplayer!!


kickstart, hire a network programmer, build, sell , profit!

youd probably surpass a million dollars on KS with the popularity of SF and what you can show with it right now, especially if you released a demo or something.

I know youve said a KS campaign is a big deal and time consuming, it is. But look at Star citizen, you are very similar to him in that you have accomplished a lot already before your kick starter, have a lot to show for it, not just concept art. Your fan base is already there, its a recipe for success. Set a modest goal of 100k if you like, but watch it expand with stretch goals.

Take a month off from dev, and market it on KS, the game might gain far more in the end.

just want to help, thanks,
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Starlight on December 05, 2012, 05:56:39 PM
I've been thoroughly enjoying the new patch.  The character building system has added a new and enjoyable dynamic.  The system seems interesting and well balanced.  I shall be quite interested to see how this develops with officers and antagonistic/ally characters in the final game. 

I do wonder if you'll have social interactions with your Officers similarly to Mount and Blade or in a Bioware game or whether your relationship will be purely statistic, such as in Leylines or Endless Space.  Both offer different possibilities, the latter is possibly preferable for long term playability in a procedurally generated sector.

I'm personally pleased to report that using a Phase Cloak as a Ship System does work now.  Thanks for fixing that Alex!  I've already put it to work in my mod on the ships I intended it for (though now I'm going to have to muck around with the phasing sprites again when I've decided which method is best.)

I can see both sides of the argument for Kickstarter.  It could bring in some helpful revenue but it could also bring additional complications.  I can also understand a desire for keeping the dev team small and intimate.  If this was my baby, I'd want to keep it close too.  The pace of development is very slow, but each update has been lovingly crafted. 
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: icepick37 on December 06, 2012, 10:06:31 AM
Please just don't reply to off-topic stuff.

So the more I play this patch the more I love it. Character progression is great. It's fun seeing the big and small ways you are improving. And it's maddening when you feel like you've wasted some potential (ie put points where you dont want them). It makes the choice really hard to make, haha. But then again the points are not arbitrarily limited, so you just figure out what you want next and move on. Try to make the most of what you've done.

So I think this is the perfect start for the campaign. If it all feels like this it will be peerless.  :D
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cruis.In on December 06, 2012, 01:26:15 PM
especially if its not worth talking about.

and who decides whats worth it or not. Certainly not you.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 06, 2012, 01:37:24 PM
Went through and removed most references to multiplayer. There are about 20 topics about that in the suggestions forum, and it's clearly off-topic here. And then there's a bunch more off-topic stuff before that. Seriously, guys. You're free to talk about this stuff, but in the release thread, let's at least try to have each post have something related to the release in it.


I do wonder if you'll have social interactions with your Officers similarly to Mount and Blade or in a Bioware game or whether your relationship will be purely statistic, such as in Leylines or Endless Space.  Both offer different possibilities, the latter is possibly preferable for long term playability in a procedurally generated sector.

Actually looking at that now. Nothing concrete to report yet, but exploring the possibilities is interesting.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 06, 2012, 02:34:11 PM
I do wonder if you'll have social interactions with your Officers similarly to Mount and Blade or in a Bioware game or whether your relationship will be purely statistic, such as in Leylines or Endless Space.  Both offer different possibilities, the latter is possibly preferable for long term playability in a procedurally generated sector.

Actually looking at that now. Nothing concrete to report yet, but exploring the possibilities is interesting.

The total war series had a fun implementation of that. Basically just statistics (http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/931592-medieval-ii-total-war/faqs/50116), but so nicely wrapped and sensible to influences that you could get attached to your generals anyhow.


Oh and, regardless of everything else, the most important feature of the officer system is the ability to kick them out of the airlock! I just had a damn venture captain destroy an enemy wile I floated beside him with flamed-out engines, killing me too. That's really frustrating in iron mode. Since the responsible officers would not confess I had to vent my entire crew into space, poor bastards.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on December 07, 2012, 05:59:39 AM


I do wonder if you'll have social interactions with your Officers similarly to Mount and Blade or in a Bioware game or whether your relationship will be purely statistic, such as in Leylines or Endless Space.  Both offer different possibilities, the latter is possibly preferable for long term playability in a procedurally generated sector.

Actually looking at that now. Nothing concrete to report yet, but exploring the possibilities is interesting.
[/quote]

Having bad relations with crew could end up in mutiny and such. Wil be nice to see how this pans out.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Rogal Dorn on December 08, 2012, 06:16:25 PM
This talk of relations between officers and you reminds me of Crusader Kings II.
That would be a great thing to base them off of, especially if you made your skills effect how much they liked you.
Also if you ever make own able planets and the like, CK2 would yet again be a good place for inspiration.

Also forgive my ignorance, but does industry do anything? I have found no references to it other than the character screen.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Chancellor Meatsteak on December 08, 2012, 06:39:37 PM
Also forgive my ignorance, but does industry do anything? I have found no references to it other than the character screen.

Welcome to the forums! Enjoy your stay and don't ask for multiplayer, it has become sort of a taboo around here.

Industry doesn't do anything yet because the features associated with it; like mining asteroids, building outposts, setting up trade routes, etc; have yet to be implemented. You can probably expect it to gain skills in future updates.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Squigzilla on December 10, 2012, 11:09:15 AM
Welcome to the forums, Dorn!  The Emperor protects... but not against Reaper torpedoes.  Flak is pretty good at that though.  ;D

One quick question (slightly off topic, but still related to this release): is there a place I can find a list of the skills and associated perks?  My computer broke so I can't play SF for the time being, but I'd like to take a look at some possible character builds while I'm looking for a replacement.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: firstattak1 on December 10, 2012, 04:59:25 PM
^^
I agree, someone needs to make a "Level designer" for this. So we can plan what skills and points we use.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Starlight on December 10, 2012, 10:34:56 PM
Alex, noted a minor issue with the current build in regards to modding in HullMods.  When I updated my HullMods I wanted to make them skill-dependant, but doing so requires me to completely override default skills in my own mods - posting a minimised file with just the addtions does not append but replaces the skill lacking its usual functionality.  Getting a HM to unlock at L2 of Flux Dynamics for examples requires me to copypasta the entire FD skill (or it FD wont work properly,) which for a game in development, is not really sustainable (every time you make an adjustment, I'd have to spot the change and re-copy the .skill file, which shouldn't even be the case.) 

That leaves three options;  1. Any custom HullMods being immediately available (and that would be like we've made no progress at all! (in this little area,))  2. The .skill files working more like the player.faction etc. files where if something isn't mentioned, it's assumed to be default or otherwise, 3. Assuming doing so works at present, I make my own skill to tie my HM's into ("Starlight Tech") which I can also see some potential for - if it could be arranged so that the skill has to be unlocked by buying a book or something from one of my shipyards.

I'm already tempted to work on option 3 there, since I'm not happy with the way I've done it now and skills are something I haven't made one of yet.  Just wondering if option 2 is going to be a likely change we're going to see because that would allow modders in general more flexibility. 

Oh and if this should have gone in the Modding forum, my apologies, it just seemed relevant here because it's about the latest patch and its new additions.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 11, 2012, 05:10:23 AM
This is the announcement thread, so let me make an announcement:

*drum roll*

The First Starfarer Short Story contest is in the voting phase! So come to this thread (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5040.0), read the stories and vote for your favorites!

(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/3198/clipboard02as.png) (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5040.0)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 11, 2012, 09:36:01 AM
@Starlight: Thanks for bringing this up. You'r right, #2 ought to be an option - added that to my list for the next release. #3 - you may run into trouble keying skills to an item, there's nothing to support that type of connection yet.

@Gothars: On the one hand, so off-topic. On the other hand, stories, monocles, and hats. And hats usually win :)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Blips on December 11, 2012, 09:36:48 AM
This is the announcement thread, so let me make an announcement:

*drum roll*

The First Starfarer Short Story contest is in the voting phase! So come to this thread (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5040.0), read the stories and vote for your favorites!

(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/3198/clipboard02as.png) (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=5040.0)
No, this is the 0.54a update thread. This thread has nothing to do with short story contests.  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Brainbread on December 11, 2012, 11:26:06 AM
@Starlight: Thanks for bringing this up. You'r right, #2 ought to be an option - added that to my list for the next release. #3 - you may run into trouble keying skills to an item, there's nothing to support that type of connection yet.


I am hoping that there will be hullmods tied to reputation with certain factions as well (when you're able to increase your rep with said factions), though being able to tie hullmods to an item would be interesting - like adding "rare" loot to find.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 13, 2012, 07:02:50 PM
Hey Alex, do you actually plan to do some kind of balance/bugfixing .1 release or will the next update be a another big feature update some time away? I don't think a bugfix release is really needed, but I have seen some deviating assumptions in the forum.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 13, 2012, 07:55:12 PM
Hey Alex, do you actually plan to do some kind of balance/bugfixing .1 release or will the next update be a another big feature update some time away? I don't think a bugfix release is really needed, but I have seen some deviating assumptions in the forum.

Yes, there'll be a .1 release. Since there's nothing urgent (though there are a few modding-related fixes/features I'd like to put out soon-ish), I'm not rushing it - but rather fixing things here and there, while also doing some prototyping-type work for the next feature release. So, even though the .1 isn't out yet, technically work has already started on the release after that :)

The change log for the .1 release is actually pretty sizable already. I'll see about posting it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: DJ Die on December 14, 2012, 06:32:12 AM


Yes, there'll be a .1 release. Since there's nothing urgent (though there are a few modding-related fixes/features I'd like to put out soon-ish), I'm not rushing it - but rather fixing things here and there, while also doing some prototyping-type work for the next feature release. So, even though the .1 isn't out yet, technically work has already started on the release after that :)

The change log for the .1 release is actually pretty sizable already. I'll see about posting it tomorrow.
ah thats were good to hear cant wait for both of those patches
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Psycho Society on December 15, 2012, 11:50:19 PM
What's stewing in Starfarer's development at the moment? I hope there's gonna be some interaction in the game down the line. I think someone referred to character development as a sort of content tap for the game. Interesting for replayability, but it doesn't add much. Honestly what Starfarer needs most at this point is to have some kind of meaning in the campaign. Relationships between groups, trade, structures to make your actions in the game significant.

I know all this stuff will come in time, just wondering what the road map for the game is currently.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 16, 2012, 06:31:53 AM
just wondering what the road map for the game is currently.

Alex is a bit secretive about that, probably to avoid disappointment on our and pressure on his side. I personally would be very interested in that, in changes of plan (and their reasons) even more so. But I guess not everyone would react positively, so I understand.

That said, the next feature release after the patch will most likely be Officers.
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sendrien on December 16, 2012, 09:31:51 AM
Developing content before having finalized the structure of gameplay is tantamount to painting the insulation before putting up the walls of a house. So far, Alex has used a very logical (and time-optimal) sequence to developing Starfarer, even if it means less up-front enjoyment for beta players, but this is why we pay only half the price. If anything, we should support Alex in persevering with this sensible development plan, because it means less redoing and reprogramming, and ultimately a faster release of a final product. :)

Think of it this way. The more time Alex spends on structural and gameplay dynamics for Starfarer, the more robust the game will be. There is a lot of modding talent out there, and since the rate of content consumption is always significantly faster than the rate of content development, you really want as robust a game as possible, as this will enable the modding community to produce better content and enhance replayability beyond the standard content that is delivered with the final version of Starfarer.

Plus, content is relatively easy to develop once everything else is in place. Good gameplay, on the other hand, is extremely hard to find and rarely emphasized in today's market of high production value and eye candy. Starfarer is one of the few titles out there which seems to have its priorities in the right place. We would do well to encourage Alex to stay his course!
Title: Re: Starfarer 0.54a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 16, 2012, 10:15:39 AM
What's stewing in Starfarer's development at the moment? I hope there's gonna be some interaction in the game down the line. I think someone referred to character development as a sort of content tap for the game. Interesting for replayability, but it doesn't add much. Honestly what Starfarer needs most at this point is to have some kind of meaning in the campaign. Relationships between groups, trade, structures to make your actions in the game significant.

I know all this stuff will come in time, just wondering what the road map for the game is currently.

I agree with your assessment :) There are also some other things the campaign could use - such as interesting travel and stronger/better connections to the combat layer.

It's not at a point where I'm ready to start talking about. (Sheesh, "secretive"? Makes me sound like the Illuminati!) I can make the following non-statement, though - I'm really, really excited about where it's going. Some design issues that have been bothering me are being addressed in what seems to be a very satisfying way. Of course, won't actually know for sure until the rubber meets the road.


@Sendrien: That's rather how I think about it, too - except for the part about content being easy. It's very time-consuming, and getting it polished will take some time. But yeah, it makes sense to develop the structure first, and then build the content out based on it - though there will be a feedback loop there where some dynamics probably won't become apparent until enough/the right kind of content is in place.