Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Infinite Monkeys on July 28, 2012, 12:38:45 PM
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I bought this game months ago when the first public 'campaign' build came out and played it to death, planning to come back once things changed to make the game more replayable. Since then there have been new ships and modules, and that seems to be it. No new campaign stuff or any actual progress on the core game, just a slew of minor additions. The promised epic campaign mode has seen absolutely zero progress and Alex seems content with minor balance tweaks etc. The only notable change from 0.52.1a to now is the addition of 'phase cloaks' which are really just another ship module - the rest is all balance tweaks, AI fixes and the like. Seems like this is another Cortex Command, a game with great promise doomed to go nowhere :(
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Nope.
I've seen definite development.
Alex is finishing up combat first.
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If you read the forum threads, you'll notice that development is continuing at a steady pace, and that Alex has mentioned that ship systems (including phase ships) is the last major combat-related addition before the campaign is developed further. Patience is a virtue.
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Two big problems with indie development:
1) They usually release an early build of the game and then 'sell' it to fund continued development. What this causes is a sense of entitlement from the players that purchased it - they begin to demand their ideas make it into the game and that they get constant content patches in order to feel that their money is not being 'stolen' or scammed out of them.
2) Usually only 1-3 guys work on the game full-time. This issue compounds issue #1 - it can become a vicious downward spiral of ill will.
Really the only thing Alex can do at this point is hire another full-time dev to speed things up. While the last estimate of copies sold is around 15,000, I don't think thats enough to make hiring another dev feasible. But, Alex seems to a pretty avid bug smasher and the game is VERY stable for still being in alpha - at least we have one good reason as to why development is slow. ;)
So, patience. Alex is working on Starfarer full-time and thats all we can really ask for until the game becomes more popular and starts selling a larger volume of units per month.
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Are you seeing the same patch notes I am?
I see phase cloaks, 4 new ships, lots of bug fixes, one overpowered weapon getting nerfed so it is not the one thing to put on a large slot, a few more balance changes, ship systems, a new mission, smarter AI, and some other things I am too lazy to look up all in one patch.
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Moddability is also getting quite the kick up the rear in this update too. Honestly, just because Alex doesn't release a patch every week, it doesn't make the development stagnant, it means he can actually get more meaningful stuff done with each patch without having to cut it short to meet a deadline or whatever. The soon(tm) release schedule, while hilariously frustrating, is great for getting features delivered complete. Besides, the way the releases are done, it means mod makers can get quite a few kinks worked out of their works as well without having to worry about updating for new versions nearly so often
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Dri made some exceptionally perceptive comments about the entire dev situation and why some folks mistakenly feel that it is somehow being done wrong. While development of Starfarer may or may not proceed at a pace that is congruent with everyone's idea of "fast enough," it cannot fairly be characterized as "stagnant".
And as K-64 alluded to, once v0.53 is released it will allow our very healthy modding community to create new content that is better than ever able to keep us happy in between official releases.
I am continually impressed with how solid and how interesting this early alpha build of Starfarer actually is. No, of course it's not complete, but for a low-fifties point release we're getting one hell of a fine product.
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I have played it for over 400 hours, I might consider myself a addict.
The reality is this guy has done more work on this game than I have done in my entire life.
He is coding/programing/whatever you want to call it, which is something that while I can't do, I have heard many a times it is tedious and hard work. And I would guess that he has spent a lot of time and hard work since he has built his own engine, that seems really stable from the fact it never crashes for me, unlike other indie games I have played which are very buggy. (I mean it, the only bug I have ever found was the ability to open the system map and play time at the same time by smashing the keys together really fast)
Needless to say, Alex has killed so many bugs he would be renown as a federation hero in Starship troopers. (Or a really good member of the Men in Black, I like to call him Agent A)
I think he is working at a good rate, considering he must comb through his work alot, is just about to make the game REALLY moddable and within 6 months will proabably let me leave the solar system I currently have 8 paragons in. (which I probably won't be able to keep :'(, but then again, this is a ALPHA build.)
Personally speaking, bro, imagine ramming a bunch of stuff with a onslaught traveling faster than a bullet. That will be awesome.
Opinion sucessfully expressed.
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Are you seeing the same patch notes I am?
I see phase cloaks, 4 new ships, lots of bug fixes, one overpowered weapon getting nerfed so it is not the one thing to put on a large slot, a few more balance changes, ship systems, a new mission, smarter AI, and some other things I am too lazy to look up all in one patch.
These are all minor additions of new content similar to the existing stuff or straight tweaks to existing content, none of it is actual major stuff. I seem to remember the number after the 0. is supposed to be the percent complete (could be wrong here) in which case it's moved 3% in... 5 months.
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Are you seeing the same patch notes I am?
I see phase cloaks, 4 new ships, lots of bug fixes, one overpowered weapon getting nerfed so it is not the one thing to put on a large slot, a few more balance changes, ship systems, a new mission, smarter AI, and some other things I am too lazy to look up all in one patch.
These are all minor additions of new content similar to the existing stuff or straight tweaks to existing content, none of it is actual major stuff. I seem to remember the number after the 0. is supposed to be the percent complete (could be wrong here) in which case it's moved 3% in... 5 months.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Version_number
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These are all minor additions of new content similar to the existing stuff or straight tweaks to existing content, none of it is actual major stuff. I seem to remember the number after the 0. is supposed to be the percent complete (could be wrong here) in which case it's moved 3% in... 5 months.
No, the version number has nothing to do with the percent completed whatsoever...
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What would you rather have, an alpha with dozens of different aspects and features, non of which are fleshed out, interesting, balanced or complete, leaving a game lacking in charm, replay-ability and most importantly fun, or one with one or two aspect solidly and thoughtfully built to a very exacting standard. I don't know about you, but I much prefer the second option, making sure everything works well every step of the way and gradually building it from the bottom up, with excellent foundations, rather than trying to cram it all together form the top down, and then try to make every different aspect work without them collapsing into a messy heap.
As starfarer stands now, it is *already* the best tactical star-ship combat game I have played. period, Now I'm not syaing for a moment that that excuses a lack of updates, or that you should be satisfied only with what is provided here, but rather consider the Reason that this is the case, is because alex has single-minded focused on making the combat as meaty, stable balanced and interesting as possible. leaving everything but the very barest outlines of economy and campaign until later, where they will receive due focus and attention in time. If the care and attention to the combat system had been neglected to get other large scale features in place in a skeletal fashion, the combat would be no-where near as fun, and as a result the game would be a whole lot less appealing.
Just my 2 cents, as the Americans say, but really for the staff involved, this game is proceeding apace, with wonderful changes being made regularly and the best kind of dev focus.
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compared to other development i find this goes at a very good pace. not the fastest, but far better than average. After this patch im hoping we will get the campaign features we're all waiting for.
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Starfarer is my third favourite game of all time (just behind Kingdom Hearts 2 and WipEout HD Fury due to memories) and it's in Alpha.
Huh.
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After version 0.99 comes version... 0.100!
To all those who think development on Starfarer is going (too) slow I can only suggest trying their own hand at game development. Developing a game is hard and takes a lot of time.
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this is ludicrous
for a game in alpha, starfarer rank incredibly high in playability.
OP is blind or too hardheaded to realize this
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OP voiced a opinion, no need to call him blind. This is a friendly forum, where we respect peoples opinion, even if we disagree.
I am sorry, but calling people blind from the truth is a bad idea when the person may be measuring development time on his scale.
I beg you to not make harsh accusations and insults, as a fellow forum member.
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itt: customer with over-inflated sense of entitlement and no sense of progress re: game development and development in general.
(Sorry. It's a particularly bitter point for me, as a game developer-in-training, when people say "x game is making no new changes at all" when I look at the same game/patch notes and see thousands of lines of code having been writ.*)
*: It's surprising how much you can do with a few k LOC, though. Once worked on a team with four other people and we farted out a 2D ASCII dungeon-crawling RPG in ~16k LOC. The combat code alone (which I worked on) weighed in around 2.5k (so nearly a sixth of the work put into the game), and the visual overlays for combat were another 1-2k, IIRC.
-- Griffinhat
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I don't feel entitled to anything but the following:
1. To receive updates when they are ready to be released
2. To make suggestions and be a member of the community.
That's all I'm entitled to. Not whining
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I also had the feeling that Alex was stalling with these combat updates. I'm not going to lie and say that feeling has disappeared, but I do feel that every update has improved the game enough so far.
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I also had the feeling that Alex was stalling with these combat updates. I'm not going to lie and say that feeling has disappeared, but I do feel that every update has improved the game enough so far.
Weird. I can't say I really understand that.
He's been pretty transparent with his updates, and I can completely understand wanting to have combat locked down before moving onto other systems.
Plus, what does he have to gain by stalling?
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Plus, what does he have to gain by stalling?
I wouldn't look at ship systems as any kind of detour from the original plan. That's something that was always meant to be in the game, and had to get done at some point. Not saying that you necessarily were looking at it that way, but thought it worth mentioning in any case.
Part of the reason I ended up doing them now was to have a little more time to think through certain non-combat aspects, while still making concrete progress on something that was more better defined in my mind (i.e., ship systems). I'm happy to say that the extra time to think has helped a lot - I know that's rather vague, but that's all you get until I'm more certain of how the non-combat aspects in question will actually work :) (That generally means implementing a basic working version, btw.)
Getting combat closer to a finished state more quickly is a nice bonus, too.
As for my opinion, I'm happy with the speed development is going thus far. I'd rather have the economy implemented sooner rather than ship systems, but I understand why it's being done the way it is, and I'm still excited for the upcoming patch anyways.
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From my point of view, it makes sense to get combat locked down and feature-complete ("feature-complete" is the important part; usually, when a game moves into beta, it's usually entirely asset- and feature-complete, and the rest of the work is in balancing and bug-quashing; in my experience, games that aren't this by beta are... significantly more difficult to work with and/or on) before moving onto campaign/economy, since combat is smaller in scope (also, it's where a lot of the gameplay is, and for a dev to sell their game in alpha stage, there had better be some kind of gameplay worth playing, to make funding the rest of development feel "worth it").
Consider what Starfarer would look like if the developers had chosen to focus on campaign first, before combat. Or, worse, if the devs were working on all parts all at the same time. The former would be like Mount & Blade overworld and nothing but; the latter'd be a friggin' nightmare.
-- Griffinhart
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let the man work!
they didn't asked Michelagenlo when was gonna be the next 'update' when he was painting the Sixtine Chapel, did they? :)
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I hope you guys realize that the game in it's current APLHA state is pretty much at the same level that many COMPLETE games are at. If Alex wanted to he could have ignored the campaign and simply sold it as a space arena sim. And you know what? I'd still buy it.
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I hope you guys realize that the game in it's current APLHA state is pretty much at the same level that many COMPLETE games are at. If Alex wanted to he could have ignored the campaign and simply sold it as a space arena sim. And you know what? I'd still buy it.
well said !
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I'd complain about stagnant development if the developer decides to hide from us for more than half a month; giving us the impression that nothing is "moving" in the game's development. Otherwise I'm pleased with the team's involvement with the game's development and community.
I want to see more of the lore guy!
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I've worked on quite a few indie projects, I'm working on Starfarer now and all I will say is that I disagree with the OP to just about the maximum possible extent. I know I might be biased, but especially considering the team size I think the game is making very good progress.
Also, making games is not easy - in fact it's the very opposite! :)
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I've worked on quite a few indie projects, I'm working on Starfarer now and all I will say is that I disagree with the OP to just about the maximum possible extent. I know I might be biased, but especially considering the team size I think the game is making very good progress.
Also, making games is not easy - in fact it's the very opposite! :)
You work on starfarer?? Hi, nice to meet you!
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I've worked on quite a few indie projects, I'm working on Starfarer now and all I will say is that I disagree with the OP to just about the maximum possible extent. I know I might be biased, but especially considering the team size I think the game is making very good progress.
Also, making games is not easy - in fact it's the very opposite! :)
You work on starfarer?? Hi, nice to meet you!
Mr. Stark does the music.
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I hope you guys realize that the game in it's current APLHA state is pretty much at the same level that many COMPLETE games are at. If Alex wanted to he could have ignored the campaign and simply sold it as a space arena sim. And you know what? I'd still buy it.
I think this is the first time I have wholly agreed with you on something! ;D
Well said.
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I hope you guys realize that the game in it's current APLHA state is pretty much at the same level that many COMPLETE games are at. If Alex wanted to he could have ignored the campaign and simply sold it as a space arena sim. And you know what? I'd still buy it.
Yes. However, the problem is that he DIDN'T sell it as a space arena sim. If Alex cut-and-ran with what he had now, I wouldn't be too angry. I've had my $10 worth of fun already. I'm just saying that I can see where some people are thinking that progress isn't being made, since some didn't buy the game for the combat aspect, they bought it for the non-combat portions of the game. If I bought the game wanting to do nothing more than play as a miner/trader, and came on to these forums for the past six months seeing nothing but combat updates, I'd probably be a little aggravated too.
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Yes. However, the problem is that he DIDN'T sell it as a space arena sim. If Alex cut-and-ran with what he had now, I wouldn't be too angry. I've had my $10 worth of fun already. I'm just saying that I can see where some people are thinking that progress isn't being made, since some didn't buy the game for the combat aspect, they bought it for the non-combat portions of the game. If I bought the game wanting to do nothing more than play as a miner/trader, and came on to these forums for the past six months seeing nothing but combat updates, I'd probably be a little aggravated too.
Well spoken.
I think the OP is just being a little flippant with the substance of the updates. Yes we've seen no campaign functionality, and yes it's frustrating. But the amount of stuff that Alex puts into each patch is hardly minor in any sense of the word. I think that's where the defensive-ness and hostility is coming from.
I will reiterate that I have great faith in Alex. He's doing an amazing job pretty much on his own, and I am willing to wait for each update b/c of how much they do change the game. I do hope to see some campaign functionality soon, though.
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Alex as one guy has made a little Alpha less buggy than almost any triple a title i've seen, as well as:
1. Providing a realistic AI
2. An awesome combat system (like as in, the best combat I've played with for ages)
3. He has given me my money's worth already. I mean, I could keep having fun with this game so long as the modding community keeps up too.
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Yeah, but that's not really the point. The point is we haven't seen the campaign, and as awesome as everything else is, it's kind of a glaring omission. (but like I said I'm willing to wait)
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Also, making games is not easy - in fact it's the very opposite!
Allow me to underline this - it is indeed very difficult to make a game.
I have some concept thoughts of my game (yes, i do intend on making one myself) on a game, and i can already tell you now that it is hard deciding what get's past implementation and what doesn't, based solely on the fact on how hard it is to make and how time-consuming it is. :)
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Yeah, but that's not really the point. The point is we haven't seen the campaign, and as awesome as everything else is, it's kind of a glaring omission. (but like I said I'm willing to wait)
Imagine that, a game where the engine is finalized before work on the campaign is created using said engine -- I bet no game has ever done it that way before!
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Yeah, but that's not really the point. The point is we haven't seen the campaign, and as awesome as everything else is, it's kind of a glaring omission. (but like I said I'm willing to wait)
Imagine that, a game where the engine is finalized before work on the campaign is created using said engine -- I bet no game has ever done it that way before!
It works way better, because you get all the hype about the game being good, while having the game, without having the bugs, and so forth
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TBH, I already feel like I've got my money's worth. I would buy Starfarer as it is, right now, and be totally fine with no more updates.
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I paid up to support Alex's stated design goals/dream for the games long term development.
I can't say I expected him to be where he's at now in the game. I want the full deal as pitched tho. I hope his vision of the game he's bringing to life is as fun as I expect it to be. Those who are happy with it now, I'm not sure what to say to that. It's as good as a tech demo as currently is, in my opinion. That's nothing negative per-se. It certainly serves as a test bed to refine the combat and other systems.
There is all ready a unique feel to the game that stands out. It has a promising future ahead of it, should it reach fruition.
Past that, People know he never said he would be done by any specific date. He's also not working on it full time, all the time.
Besides, I'm betting some of the stuff is a lot more work than he expected :p
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Well, .53's been released. Happy? You better be! ;D
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Whoo campaign related content is next! :`D
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Can't wait for it! Multiple systems are a must! :)
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I've worked on quite a few indie projects, I'm working on Starfarer now and all I will say is that I disagree with the OP to just about the maximum possible extent. I know I might be biased, but especially considering the team size I think the game is making very good progress.
Also, making games is not easy - in fact it's the very opposite! :)
You work on starfarer?? Hi, nice to meet you!
Mr. Stark does the music.
I thought he did the weapons? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stark_Industries#Functions)
-- Griffinhart
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I read the thread title and the first post, and I don't think it's necessary to even skim through the rest of this thread.
If this isn't a joke, which it really looks like to anyone who's semi-regularly paid attention to Starfarer's development and has even the loosest grasp on average development cycles, especially for indie games with small teams, then shame on you. Shame on you for not knowing better.
The dev team's communication with the community has been impeccable. The rate of progress has been astounding. At no point since this website was accessible to the general public has this not been the case.
This has been so blatantly, objectively obvious that I can only conclude that the OP has fallen victim to a sort of confirmation bias, where they only care about updates and communication concerning one or two aspects of the game they find particularly interesting(campaign features?), while progress and information about all other areas are ignored and considered wasted time, despite their fundamental importance in the scope of the project as a whole, and in game design in general.
It just isn't an apple pie without the crust, even if all *you* care about is the filling, and Alex is making this one from scratch, so he must first invent the universe, you see?
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I read the thread title and the first post, and I don't think it's necessary to even skim through the rest of this thread.
If this isn't a joke, which it really looks like to anyone who's semi-regularly paid attention to Starfarer's development and has even the loosest grasp on average development cycles, especially for indie games with small teams, then shame on you. Shame on you for not knowing better.
The dev team's communication with the community has been impeccable. The rate of progress has been astounding. At no point since this website was accessible to the general public has this not been the case.
This has been so blatantly, objectively obvious that I can only conclude that the OP has fallen victim to a sort of confirmation bias, where they only care about updates and communication concerning one or two aspects of the game they find particularly interesting(campaign features?), while progress and information about all other areas are ignored and considered wasted time, despite their fundamental importance in the scope of the project as a whole, and in game design in general.
It just isn't an apple pie without the crust, even if all *you* care about is the filling, and Alex is making this one from scratch, so he must first invent the universe, you see?
Before the recent update, there had been many months since a release and a long time since any new patchnotes. I totally understands that people became inpatient
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I read the thread title and the first post, and I don't think it's necessary to even skim through the rest of this thread.
If this isn't a joke, which it really looks like to anyone who's semi-regularly paid attention to Starfarer's development and has even the loosest grasp on average development cycles, especially for indie games with small teams, then shame on you. Shame on you for not knowing better.
The dev team's communication with the community has been impeccable. The rate of progress has been astounding. At no point since this website was accessible to the general public has this not been the case.
This has been so blatantly, objectively obvious that I can only conclude that the OP has fallen victim to a sort of confirmation bias, where they only care about updates and communication concerning one or two aspects of the game they find particularly interesting(campaign features?), while progress and information about all other areas are ignored and considered wasted time, despite their fundamental importance in the scope of the project as a whole, and in game design in general.
It just isn't an apple pie without the crust, even if all *you* care about is the filling, and Alex is making this one from scratch, so he must first invent the universe, you see?
Before the recent update, there had been many months since a release and a long time since any new patchnotes. I totally understands that people became inpatient
Disclaimer: This is an opinion post as a free individual, not a moderator.
I think the main problem here is that people misunderstand what they are buying when they buy an alpha version of a game. I totally understand people getting impatient waiting for something that they really like. What they don't seem to understand is that this emotional response to complain should be repressed Mr. Spock style, because it is not logical.
Why? Go read the BUY -section of the Starfarer website. Where does it say that you are entitled to monthly or bi-monthly updates? Where does it say that every udpate has to have something that you really like? Where does it promise that the game has to be finished within a year or you get your money back plus a lollipop for your hurt feelings? It doesn't. Here's what it does say:
"When you preorder, you’re getting Starfarer in its current state."
The fact that you get subsequent updates for free does not mean that you are somehow entitled to those updates. And just because there were a few quick updates in the past doesn't mean that now suddenly every update has to be released according to that imaginary schedule. All this should be painfully obvious to everyone.
Also, if you want the developers to work faster at something, does anyone think that calling the game "a great promise doomed to go nowhere", like the OP did, works as an efficient motivator? Here's the answer: No, it doesn't. In all likelyhood it has the exactly opposite effect, and if I wasn't a quasi-official appearing entity on this forum I would slap the OP in the face. But I won't.
This thread is just an incredibly silly waste of time. A year from now someone will accidentally find it somewhere in the depths of the forum, read it and quietly close the browser tab, ashamed that we even had to have this discussion.
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Errr can i at least have that lollipop?
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... aaand that's Mr. Stark, pulling no punches and telling it like it is. I do want to expand on some of the things he said, though.
"When you preorder, you’re getting Starfarer in its current state."
I sincerely hope that all of you had read that before deciding to support Starfarer's development. After all, it's in the very first sentence on the preorder page - and hardly a good way to start a sales pitch, if you ask me - but it's something I felt was vital to establish from the beginning. Why? Because things happen. If I got hit by a bus tomorrow, or had a different sort of an emergency, it would have a real impact on the future of the game. I really hope that doesn't happen (and I think I've got a bit more of a stake in it than you!), but that's not something anyone in their right mind can promise.
Also, if you want the developers to work faster at something, does anyone think that calling the game "a great promise doomed to go nowhere", like the OP did, works as an efficient motivator? Here's the answer: No, it doesn't. In all likelyhood it has the exactly opposite effect
I'd like to think that my mental state is reasonably sound, but I admit to feeling momentarily disheartened when reading those words. Personally, I try to see it as an opportunity for personal growth - of the skin-thickening kind. +1 carapace upgrade research complete!
Ultimately, the OP has my gratitude as a supporter of the game, and has every right to state his opinion. Thank you all for your support - and for sharing your thoughts - too!
Errr can i at least have that lollipop?
I just tried to convert the price of a preorder into lollipops and got terribly depressed. Thanks for that. (I know, I know - comparing virtual goods to physical ones is considerably worse than comparing apples to oranges.)
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Also, if you want the developers to work faster at something, does anyone think that calling the game "a great promise doomed to go nowhere", like the OP did, works as an efficient motivator? Here's the answer: No, it doesn't. In all likelyhood it has the exactly opposite effect
I'd like to think that my mental state is reasonably sound, but I admit to feeling momentarily disheartened when reading those words. Personally, I try to see it as an opportunity for personal growth - of the skin-thickening kind. +1 carapace upgrade research complete!
Ultimately, the OP has my gratitude as a supporter of the game, and has every right to state his opinion. Thank you all for your support - and for sharing your thoughts - too!
Alex, just remember that there are zounds of people out there that absolutely love Starfarer, appreciate all the work you put into it and realize that nothing good just gets done overnight. A quality product takes time and love (and maybe a little magic). Plus you've given dozens of players (and me!) a great creative outlet allowing them to mod to their hearts content! Even at this early stage in development, this project just keeps on giving. ;)
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I just tried to convert the price of a preorder into lollipops and got terribly depressed. Thanks for that. (I know, I know - comparing virtual goods to physical ones is considerably worse than comparing apples to oranges.)
OOOOhoooo there, i'm not responsible for your imagination :P No way 8)
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...there are zounds of people out there that absolutely love Starfarer...
[EDIT: It submitted my post before I actually put any content in. Weird.]
Just FYI, "zounds" is short for "(by) God's wounds" and is an exclamation of anger or surprise. It isn't short for "thousands." =)
I'm going to hazard a guess and say you played Heroes of Might and Magic (possibly 3?), saw a group of monsters where it said "Zounds... <monster type>," and made certain assumptions? How wrong am I?
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...there are zounds of people out there that absolutely love Starfarer...
[EDIT: It submitted my post before I actually put any content in. Weird.]
Just FYI, "zounds" is short for "(by) God's wounds" and is an exclamation of anger or surprise. It isn't short for "thousands." =)
I'm going to hazard a guess and say you played Heroes of Might and Magic (possibly 3?), saw a group of monsters where it said "Zounds... <monster type>," and made certain assumptions? How wrong am I?
It is also used as a mild oath. In this context a (large) pledge of players. You could see it as a slang term for "one-thousand". Let's face it, languages are alive! And if someone starts using "zounds" in numerical reference or in reference of rough quantities, it might catch on! ;)
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I might just start using that word ;)
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I might just start using that word ;)
Then my work here is done. ;D
In answer of naufrago's earlier post though, yes I was a fervent player of Heroes of Might and magic III. ;)
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Im perfectly happy with the rate of development. every update has alot of changes, and usually a brand new thing. Starfarer is one of my favorite games of all time and its still in development, that says alot!
Alex, KEEP IT UP!!!!!!!!
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"When you preorder, you’re getting Starfarer in its current state."
The fact that you get subsequent updates for free does not mean that you are somehow entitled to those updates. And just because there were a few quick updates in the past doesn't mean that now suddenly every update has to be released according to that imaginary schedule. All this should be painfully obvious to everyone.
Also, if you want the developers to work faster at something, does anyone think that calling the game "a great promise doomed to go nowhere", like the OP did, works as an efficient motivator? Here's the answer: No, it doesn't. In all likelyhood it has the exactly opposite effect, and if I wasn't a quasi-official appearing entity on this forum I would slap the OP in the face. But I won't.
This thread is just an incredibly silly waste of time. A year from now someone will accidentally find it somewhere in the depths of the forum, read it and quietly close the browser tab, ashamed that we even had to have this discussion.
"When you preorder, you’re getting Starfarer in its current state."
I sincerely hope that all of you had read that before deciding to support Starfarer's development. After all, it's in the very first sentence on the preorder page - and hardly a good way to start a sales pitch, if you ask me - but it's something I felt was vital to establish from the beginning. Why? Because things happen. If I got hit by a bus tomorrow, or had a different sort of an emergency, it would have a real impact on the future of the game. I really hope that doesn't happen (and I think I've got a bit more of a stake in it than you!), but that's not something anyone in their right mind can promise.
I understood this before I bought it, still choose to do it. It surprises me that people don't even read the most important parts of the terms of service. Honestly one of my friend's is the programmer for another indie game and I know how long it takes just to get very basic things done. I'm also the person that usually pushes for giving developers more time to develop things because I know how long it takes to actually make anything substantial.
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This game to me is the mount and blade in space.
I want to see it finished as soon as possible.
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I'm in no rush to have it finished as soon as possible. Rushed completions are rarely better than something released when it's ready... not to mention, since any of us playing right now have already bought the game, does it really matter WHEN it's finished? We get access to builds throughout it's whole development, so technically we'll be playing and have pretty much played the whole game when it is released.
So, I'd like to see it get finished... and continue to have the same quality at it's end as it's maintained throughout the development... when it's ready. Not ASAP.
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I started a very similar thread a month ago and Alex was nice enough to explain why the progress of the game is as it is.
Anyway, as a consumer I can sympathise with the recent shift in forum attitude towards Starfarer since there's been no development aside from combat in months. This stems from the lack of understanding of the game development cycle and a mistaken belief the game is months, instead of years, from completion.
Alex, please use your blog update (FB or tweeter) to inform your existing/potential customer of snippets of what you are planning (or even idle thoughts on the direction of the development) and not just a monthly update of new, almost-finished features. Customer relationship management is about managing customer expectation and as pre-order customers, we are potentially the most valuable and cost-effective advocates of your game there is - you really don't want to lose people like the OP due to lack of information.
Hope you see this.
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The unhappy 1% will always make more noise of the happy 99%.
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Anyway, as a consumer I can sympathise with the recent shift in forum attitude towards Starfarer since there's been no development aside from combat in months.
I don't actually see a shift in attitude. If you were to look back through the forum's history, you'd see something very similar crop up every couple of months, almost from the very beginning of the forum's existence.
That said, I do sympathize with those that want to see Starfarer finished sooner, what with me being one of those people and all :) I don't think anyone wants to see the game finished more than I do. But even more than that, I want it to be the game I want to play, and I want to do it right.
So, regardless of what the general attitude/perception is, I don't have any real choice in how to go about things. I'm already working as hard as I possibly can - because I love it, not out of a sense of obligation - although getting a new version of the game into your guys' hands is a huge motivator.
If the pace of development is not fast enough for someone, well, that's fine, and I understand - but it's not like I can suddenly realize, "oh, man, I really ought to be doing things twice as quickly!".
Alex, please use your blog update (FB or tweeter) to inform your existing/potential customer of snippets of what you are planning (or even idle thoughts on the direction of the development) and not just a monthly update of new, almost-finished features. Customer relationship management is about managing customer expectation and as pre-order customers, we are potentially the most valuable and cost-effective advocates of your game there is - you really don't want to lose people like the OP due to lack of information.
Hope you see this.
I see this, but I happen to strongly disagree - about the first part, that is. The last thing I want to do is talk about features I'm not sure about, create expectations, and then not deliver on said expectations. Besides, talking about things that are farther in the future is only going to cause more desire to see those things. If I have any influence in that regard, I'd rather you be excited about the things that are coming up soon :)
Also, I don't like the idea of calling the OP "lost". All he did was come here and express his opinion - which he absolutely has a right to, and that's grounded in wanting to see the game finished. I hope that he'll come back when the game is closer to completion, and am sincerely sorry that the pace of development didn't match his expectations. Like I said above, though, there's nothing I can do about that - beyond continuing to work on the game, and continuing to ask for your understanding in that this process takes time.
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If the pace of development is not fast enough for someone, well, that's fine, and I understand - but it's not like I can suddenly realize, "oh, man, I really ought to be doing things twice as quickly!".
Just focus on staying motivated. I'd rather want you to hold up the superb quality than rush things. Starfarer is kind of my dream game, it is quite exactly the game I would try to make if I was into programming. I'm very happy that you put so much thought and time in the design, making every minor mechanic fun.
If I have any influence in that regard, I'd rather you be excited about the things that are coming up soon :)
That's the better option for me. Back when I was following the Minecraft development very closely it was always a bummer to know exactly what new things to expect in a release (but I still could not stop myself from reading). Keep it mysterious ;)
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Am I the only one hoping that the development last as long as possible? Alex might hate me for saying things like this but I really like the pace of the development of this game, it's like following the progression of a music band, with new albums (big patches) every now and then. I find this whole thing thrilling and keep me obsessed with this game\community. I know that Alex may want to close this page sooner or later, but I sure do not want (right now).
/childish rant off
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Am I the only one hoping that the development last as long as possible?
I would think, unless I'm understanding you wrong. The less time between patches the better. The patches shouldn't be rushed (they should be stable, bug free, ect), but I'll happily download any updates as soon as they are available.
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Meh, I wouldn't complain if the game exploded in popularity and the full-time staff like...tripled. Here's to hoping.
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Meh, I wouldn't complain if the game exploded in popularity and the full-time staff like...tripled. Here's to hoping.
Well i wouldn't either, but we all know the old say "Too many chefs around a soup can make it worse" or something like that ;)
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Has it been established that Development isn't stagnant yet? :P
It seems like an awful lot of posts for what is, as I see it, a very simple question with an equally simple answer.
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When I said things like 'stagnant' and 'doomed to go nowhere' I was exaggerating a bit. That said, the only actual new content in a long time, as far as I can see, is phase cloaking and ship systems. While these might be fairly significant in combat balance it doesn't seem like a lot of additions - certainly not six months worth. This is the advertised eventual feature list:
Single player, gritty, dystopian sci-fi setting
Classic top down gameplay style enhanced by modern technology
A procedurally generated sector of the galaxy, seeded with well-known core worlds and factions
Develop your character into a hot-shot pilot, a cagey admiral, an industrial magnate – or anything in between
Outfit ships with your weapons of choice and add hull modifications to create crushing tactical combinations
Explore hundreds of star systems to find habitable worlds, rich resource deposits, and lost technology
Assemble a large, powerful fleet or a finely-tuned task force with hand-picked officers and crew
Cripple core world supply lines to cause chaos and create easy prey for piracy or bolster the rule of law and try to reverse the sector’s descent into anarchy
Impact the fate of the sector with your decisions and leave a permanent mark in the world
Out of these, the ones that are a product of development rather than the nature of the game itself are:
A procedurally generated sector of the galaxy, seeded with well-known core worlds and factions
Develop your character into a hot-shot pilot, a cagey admiral, an industrial magnate – or anything in between
Outfit ships with your weapons of choice and add hull modifications to create crushing tactical combinations
Explore hundreds of star systems to find habitable worlds, rich resource deposits, and lost technology
Assemble a large, powerful fleet or a finely-tuned task force with hand-picked officers and crew
Cripple core world supply lines to cause chaos and create easy prey for piracy or bolster the rule of law and try to reverse the sector’s descent into anarchy
Impact the fate of the sector with your decisions and leave a permanent mark in the world
Of these, the ones that are actually in the game are:
Outfit ships with your weapons of choice and add hull modifications to create crushing tactical combinations
Assemble a large, powerful fleet or a finely-tuned task force with hand-picked officers and crew
In 6 months a small amount of progress has been made on the two already in the game, and none whatsoever on the other five intended feature sets. It's all very well wanting combat to be polished but it seems like six solid months have been spent polishing..
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Do you have any idea how hard it is to make a GOOD game? I've just made my first game (for a college course), it's terrible granted but it took a goddamn long time to get it WORKING in such a way that doesn't tear the computer to shreds.
Alex is doing a VERY good job with starfarer, and all you seem to be doing is moaning about the absence of PLANNED features.
And there is no such thing as too much polish in a game. :P
/Angry, rushed and slightly peeved rant over
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When I said things like 'stagnant' and 'doomed to go nowhere' I was exaggerating a bit
And now you are understating.
The game is moving along at a good clip. Cortex Command is as well, actually (admittedly that's a recent thing...). There's no reason to be snippy about planned features and perceived progress.
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I wanted to speak up in support of Alex on these points. Please understand that the ship Systems required a huge amount of work:
1. Developing the Systems code itself.
2. More importantly, developing the AI to use said code.
That's quite a lot of work, and it doesn't include any bug-fixes or other things Alex was doing; all the "grunt work" behind the scenes of game development that is 99% hidden to Ye Average End User.
Plus he's been answering our stupid questions and handling our requests, politely and professionally. That's terrifically awesome; he hasn't been hiding in a Developer Cave and generally not communicating, which is great (and really hard to do, as any coder will tell you, because your perception of "what's important" on the inside of a project is very different than end-users' expectations a lot of the time).
Anyhow, I certainly feel like I got my $10 worth and I'm looking forward to the Campaign being fleshed out and more of the engine being exposed to Java and generally made more moddable so that mods can add a lot of deep gameplay features. This is one of those games where I think that ultimately good mods are going to be why people buy it and stay with it :)
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@InfiniteMonkeys: I think the assumption you're making is that all the bullet points you listed have equal weight in terms of effort. They're just a few descriptive sentences about the game - there could as easily be 10 more similar sentences about combat, without changing the nature of the game whatsoever.
Trying to gauge development progress based on that - or on a numerical evaluation of version numbers - just doesn't make sense.
In 6 months a small amount of progress has been made on the two already in the game, and none whatsoever on the other five intended feature sets. It's all very well wanting combat to be polished but it seems like six solid months have been spent polishing..
I think you might be minimizing the things you're less interested in. I can see where you're coming from, but at the same time, there's no way I would call the improvements to combat "small". There have also been a number of improvements to the current campaign along the way - ranging from quality-of-life stuff to new features.
I understand that it's tempting to think of certain things as "done" when they're functional, and then wonder why I haven't moved on to implementing new features. But there's a world of difference between "functional" and "good", and a good deal of that doesn't lend itself to particularly eye-catching bullet points. That's just how it is.
On the bright side, I'm looking forward to getting some serious campaign work done :)
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In 6 months a small amount of progress has been made on the two already in the game, and none whatsoever on the other five intended feature sets. It's all very well wanting combat to be polished but it seems like six solid months have been spent polishing..
and this just shows how much or well....how LITTLE you know about game development...
one thing we have is working game engine that is able to handle battles and star systems which is a big part of what you need to make the game.....yes we still need some features but the ones we already have are great....
let me put that into perspective
take a look at some of the so called "AAA" titles nowadays....say Call of Duty series.....COD4/Modern Warfare 1 was an interesting game with many new or previously sparsely used features but even since MW1 all we've got are little tweaks to the engine and new weapons/missions while everything keeps looking the same sold as what 4 different games? and this is a game by professional game devs which huge financial base yet it still took them 2 years to create 2 games running on pretty much the same engine as their predecessor
on the other hand we have starfarer - game being written from the scratch by few individuals without experience from several big finished projects(i could be wrong about this one though), and which is, at least in some aspects, bound to be more difficult to make that "mere" FPS
yet its a game which has already one of the best combat systems ever, easy to mod and highly repayable even with current sandbox showcase campaign
i dont know about you but i sure as hell know who deserves my money....
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In comparison to most other small development team games out there, Starfarer is being created pretty quickly. Also it has to be noted that the combat system (in my opinion) is probably the most complex and work-requiring aspect of the game, as one little change here affects the entire system, which then needs to be rebalanced. AI is no easy feat to create, and I'm glad Alex has developed an intelligent and functional AI and I hope it only gets better and better.
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I'm looking forward to getting some serious campaign work done :)
Awesome, I'm psyched just thinking about it! Please make it super duper moddable! I've discovered that modding the game is more fun for me than the game itself.
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I've discovered that modding the game is more fun for me than the game itself.
lol
Damn, could that ever be taken the wrong way. ::)
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Am i the only one that dosnt really like mods? Im only into mods that do something completely new. Not just adding new ships. I love the base game!
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Infinite Monkeys, I hope you realize that the larger a game is the longer it takes to add in the same amount of content. Reason being is that there's more variables to take into consideration. Getting it mostly bug free is hard, much less getting it mostly balanced in the first go like Alex has done.
And Alex, don't let Starfarer go straight to your head (By that I mean ego).
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yet its a game which has already one of the best combat systems ever, easy to mod
I would like to expand on this point as well. From what I have seen, Alex takes great lengths to make the game moddable on almost every aspect. Even going as far as looking at suggestions on what to make moddable, and going "Yeah, I'll see how possible this will be", and if it is, well we have a new thing to play with.
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Please make it super duper moddable! I've discovered that modding the game is more fun for me than the game itself.
lol
Damn, could that ever be taken the wrong way. ::)
Oh, jeez, I didn't mean to imply the game isn't fun; Starfarer is a blast, but it's admittedly lacking in content in its current form. I only last so long playing single player hack 'n slash games. Modding gives it new life. The most lasting titles are those who provide creation tools and let the modding scene build the content. If Starfarer expanded in an RPG "EV Nova" sort of way, it would provide a lot of moddable content and varied gameplay. I feel the game is on track; only so much can be expected from a small dev team and Alex is heavily involved in Starfarer's forum community. That goes a long way to show his dedication and continued passion for the game.
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Oh, EV nova. I absolutely loved that game, Although I bet Starfarer will far surpass it :D
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@keptin: No worries, I didn't take it the wrong way. I'm just happy than you find Starfarer to be a worthwhile avenue for expressing your creativity. (Erick Doe said something similar a few posts back, too.) That really means a lot to me.
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Am i the only one that dosnt really like mods? Im only into mods that do something completely new. Not just adding new ships. I love the base game!
This is me exactly. I did a few new ships balanced with vanilla that I haven't maintained, but I really like the flavor of the original game. I'll play total conversion mods for fun too, but they just don't compare in my book.
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So, I feel I've been pretty critical of the game since the latest patch came out and would like to balance that out a bit, but hadn't found a good opportunity to do so...
The only reason I've been so critical is because I've been playing and enjoying the game a lot more recently thanks to the patch. Because of how much time I'm spending and enjoying it, the things that cause me to have a negative reaction stand out and make me want to let Alex & co. know about it. It's not to whine, but because I really like Starfarer and see so much potential in it; I want to help the game become even better by trying to provide detailed and (hopefully) useful feedback. For every AI-induced facepalm comes a thousand other moments that completely tip the scales toward me feeling extremely positive about the game, which I don't often convey.
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Am i the only one that dosnt really like mods? Im only into mods that do something completely new. Not just adding new ships. I love the base game!
This is me exactly. I did a few new ships balanced with vanilla that I haven't maintained, but I really like the flavor of the original game. I'll play total conversion mods for fun too, but they just don't compare in my book.
Yeah it's me as well. I made some ships, but I couldn't really balance them well, and I'm hoping the holes that I wanted to fill will get filled with vanilla ships eventually anyway. :)
I do really like junk pirates though.
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I do really like junk pirates though.
I always knew you were a good sort! :D
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and this just shows how much or well....how LITTLE you know about game development...
Oh sorry I didn't realise that having an opinion contrary to yours proves that I have no game dev experience. Tell me more about your years in 'the industry' as you presumably call it
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It is an Industry.
And I'm not sure what exact point you were trying to convey when saying: 'the industry' as you presumably call it
would you care to elaborate?
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The point is that elitist groups/people often refer to their industry/group/cause as 'the *', implying it's the only one of worth - for example, "the industry", "the game/sport" (usually football) and "the regiment" (SAS). He was acting like an elitist game developer ("how LITTLE you know about game development...") even though he probably has no experience with it himself, so I was mockingly portraying him as one.
That went so far over your head it's in orbit ::)
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...what? It's referred to as "the industry", as it is an industry, and it is being talked about as the main subject. If it was elitistism talking, then it would be THE industry. With caps.
So really, it's quite natural for people to be confused with your point, since there wasn't much of a point in the first place
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@Hyph_K31: I think you're still missing the point here, by trying to challenge K-64's authority instead of just listening to some factual statements ;)
Stuff like AI tweaking, even for a relatively-simple state machine AI like this game uses (not that it isn't pretty darn complicated at this point and probably a real beast to debug) takes a long time to implement.
It's hard to even get the "rough version" working, let alone get it all nicely polished and bug-free. AI requires a lot of math and you often find yourself having to write lots of debug statements to check your logic because somewhere, somehow, when X happens, the AI does Z, which is completely, utterly wrong. Even getting the AI to be "moderately dumb" is very difficult, even in a game where the base mechanics are pretty simple (no 3D navigation, no pathfinding).
It's one of those epic pieces of often-frustrating grind that goes on behind the scenes, which people don't even bother noticing unless it's not done well enough to keep the game from falling apart.
In short, it's not surprising that it's taken this long. It's also not surprising that folks who haven't tried building stuff like this don't get it, and presume Alex is eating bon-bons on some beach and is laughing at everybody who's handed him $10 thus far. Just how it goes :)
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@Hyph_K31: I think you're still missing the point here, by trying to challenge K-64's authority instead of just listening to some factual statements ;)
Huh? I'm not sure I follow with that, could be me being an idiot though :P
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Oh, the bits about "the industry", etc. He's trying to imply that you're talking down to him. I think it's a strawman, because, well, if you don't know about a topic, it's hardly fair to claim you're being talked down to, when the other side is feeding it to you in the simplest language they can.
I probably went too far with my counterargument- for all I know, Alex and Co. think that the AI's cake, and it's the issues of rendering and deeper data handling or UI development that drive them nuts. Every programmer has different strengths and weaknesses; personally, I love gamecode and rendering stuff but I loathe UI with a passion :)
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I didn't say anything about "the industry" argument until a few minutes ago there :P
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Ah, was that aimed at me or infinite monkey...?
If it was, well I'm fully aware as to how hard it is the get a game working, I barely even got my own to work! and it doesn't even have AI... yet.
If not... Durr