Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: wormspeaker on May 08, 2012, 04:10:35 AM

Title: Fighters OP?
Post by: wormspeaker on May 08, 2012, 04:10:35 AM
Is it just me or did fighters get a significant power boost with the latest version?

With fighters being able to be completely repaired at the end of a battle, I find that a fighter heavy mix with a few flight decks is significantly more powerful than it was in the last version.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Aleskander on May 08, 2012, 04:38:37 AM
It takes TONS of supplies to be able to effectively use a fighter fleet though. Compared to ships, fighters are much less powerful in a non-group situation, meaning unless you have a map with several comm relays, you will be at a significant disadvantage.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Catra on May 08, 2012, 04:43:01 AM
likely because the flight deck bug got fixed, previously they only tried to dock at a singular ship, now they actually disperse and go to any available.

though, IMO its also due to the AI not having a very good mix of anti-fighter and anti-ship weaponry, currently they're mostly geared for the latter. plus they got a terrible sense of sticking together, allowing them to concentrate fire without much retaliation, if enemy AI ships were to stay around their biggest vessel then fighters effectiveness would be very diminished.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: TJJ on May 08, 2012, 04:51:20 AM
Fighters' immunity to friendly-fire is a big factor that shouldn't be undervalued - it's one of the reasons they can so effectively concentrate their firepower, and allow them to synergize effectively with close support capital ships. (they can fire through the fighter swarm)

Are fighters OP? I don't know.

A balanced, mixed fleet should be the most powerful.
If such a fleet can be beaten easily and consistently with a heavily biased fighter force (with carrier support), then yes fighters are OP.

Some balance tests should be performed; AI vs AI.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Catra on May 08, 2012, 05:07:29 AM
eh, but you really cant have a balanced mixed fleet:

3 gemini / condors are 27 FP (granted, you could consolidate that into an astral and save 5 FP)
that leaves you with 23 / 28 FP to play with for fighters (assuming 50/50 or an astral), which isn't a whole lot if you want the more better fighters.

if you go with a 60 / 40 split, then your non-fighter fleet is going to be comprised of mostly a capital ship and and few frigate escorts.

IMO the current setup is that you're forced to specialize into either a carrier group or a standard fleet.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Kommodore Krieg on May 08, 2012, 05:20:50 AM
I think the changes actually made fighters much more reasonable; a swarm of broadswords isn't an iwin fleet anymore.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: cp252 on May 08, 2012, 07:11:42 AM
Both in combat and off, I find that a fighter heavy fleet is much less effective and fun to play than balanced. Unless you run tachyon lances of course... (I have 8)
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Jonlissla on May 08, 2012, 07:31:54 AM
I think the changes actually made fighters much more reasonable; a swarm of broadswords isn't an iwin fleet anymore.

They're still brutally effective though. Since they're generally quite cheap as well I don't see any real reason to switch to Warthog class fighters or any other high-tier fighter. A great combination of speed, accessability, durability and firepower.

Of course, spamming them is going to cost a billion ton of supplies.

IMO the current setup is that you're forced to specialize into either a carrier group or a standard fleet.

Having a carrier and a fighter squad or two is always quite handy. Afterall, they will constantly rebuild themselves if they have access to a flight deck and the right amount of supplies, so they can keep the pressure up quite nicely.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Catra on May 08, 2012, 07:35:13 AM
Quote
Having a carrier and a fighter squad or two is always quite handy.

and has nothing to do with what you quoted, plus can be argued that its veering towards towards the standard fleet since it will be comprised mostly of non-fighter vessels.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Jonlissla on May 08, 2012, 07:43:10 AM
and has nothing to do with what you quoted,

But it does? You argue that, from what I understood, the most viable or most common fleet is either very fighter heavy or no fighters at all. I argue however that a carrier and fighter squad can be very helpful in most situations, a good example is when overloading shields.

plus can be argued that its veering towards towards the standard fleet since it will be comprised mostly of non-fighter vessels.

I presume then that the standard fleet is the balanced one, which combines a bit of everything?  ;)
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Catra on May 08, 2012, 08:17:41 AM
Quote
the most viable or most common fleet

and has nothing to do with either of those.

i'm simply stateing that you really cant have a healthy balance of fighters and non-fighters. your fleet is going to end up either very fighter anemic (the first example) or very non-fighter anemic(the second example), and one would be better off specializing rather than generalizing.

Quote
I presume then that the standard fleet is the balanced one, which combines a bit of everything?

X>6 ships, a carrier and 2-3 (or 5-6, if you wanna cheese it with Talons :P) fighters isn't exactly a balanced fleet. :P like i said, its veering towards the standard fleet due to it being mostly comprised of non-fighter vessels.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Zani on May 08, 2012, 09:41:10 AM
Well, I am going into a mixed fleet with two cruisers (Eagle and Apogee), Two Condors, Two Warthogs and Five Broadswords. My only problem is the constant need to resupply after most battles, as about 100 supplies are consumed AND I am going over my fleet limit. So its about 22/day.
Fighters are only OP if you are prepared to soak up the massive supply cost, which if you manage you fleet correctly, should be fairly easy to do.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Temjin on May 08, 2012, 10:44:33 AM
I usually find myself running a "mixed fleet" with a combat carrier or two (typically a Venture and/or the mid-tech Destroyer Carrier whose name eludes me at the moment) with a destroyer, cruiser, or capital as my flagship. The rest goes into fighters. Seems to do the job for me. All of the sizes have their uses.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Zani on May 08, 2012, 11:29:16 AM
the mid-tech Destroyer Carrier whose name eludes me at the moment
Thats the Condor, I have problems remembering its name as well. Its wierd, its the only ship I constantly forget the name of, and nearly always go to call it the tarsus
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Temjin on May 08, 2012, 12:15:00 PM
the mid-tech Destroyer Carrier whose name eludes me at the moment
Thats the Condor, I have problems remembering its name as well. Its wierd, its the only ship I constantly forget the name of, and nearly always go to call it the tarsus

Not the Condor (that's the low-tech one), the other one. The Gemini. Yeah. I had to look it up, haha.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: hadesian on May 08, 2012, 01:01:53 PM
Depends how you use them. I still recall the one wing of Thunder I had that owned almost everything. Still awesome even though they got brought down to 2. Knock out your shields, engines and weapons, fire a pair of harpoon MRMs, hell even the swarmer missiles pack an insane punch if you can peel away armour. Don't even get me started on the Warthogs... holy, freaking, hell. If anything loses it's shields, my 9 warthogs can take a cruiser down in roughly 8 seconds from full health/armour to nothing.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Thaago on May 08, 2012, 01:07:31 PM
Well yes, but 3 wings of Warthogs cost 30 OP - thats also 3 destroyers or an Onslaught and a half. I have an issue with Warthogs in particular - if I wanted something to move at speed 80 I would use a Hammerhead (except that its faster)...

Fighters are indeed excellent and they can concentrate forces extremely well, but they are also FP intensive for their firepower.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: neonesis on May 08, 2012, 01:13:40 PM
Is anyone really using Warthogs on a normal basis? I mean, 10 FP PER WING - that's just hell of a lot of points, and they have only 80 speed.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: hadesian on May 08, 2012, 01:16:36 PM
Is anyone really using Warthogs on a normal basis? I mean, 10 FP PER WING - that's just hell of a lot of points, and they have only 80 speed.
I do, so worth that cost. I mean, the damn things use that speed to their advantage - get in just as the shields go down and bear the least of the attacks, then fire at will. And 10 FP is indeed a lot - but the flexibility is worth every point.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Catra on May 08, 2012, 02:22:21 PM
Is anyone really using Warthogs on a normal basis? I mean, 10 FP PER WING - that's just hell of a lot of points, and they have only 80 speed.

yep.

you only need 1 wing anyway, not much can really stand up to 6 LMGs and 3 LAGs, in addition to whatever other firepower your fighter squadron brings along.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: TJJ on May 08, 2012, 02:29:38 PM
The question is, can other fighters do the same job better?

I'd much rather have 2 wings of Piranhas than 1 wing of Warthogs.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: armoredcookie on May 08, 2012, 03:12:42 PM
Yeah but fleet points are MUCH less of an issue for fighter heavy fleets. With the speed that fighters have (faster than frigates), you can secure a large portion of objectives really quickly. Even if the opposing fleet brute forces their way into one objective, simply pull back and capture everything else they have.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Cerevox on May 10, 2012, 11:40:18 AM
The problem with the fighter heavy forces isn't the FP or the speed or the supplies. It is that nothing fights back against it. The AI is terrible at concentrating its forces which allows the most mobile fighters to swarm and destroy the AI fleet one by one.

30 FP of anything will trash a single 10-15 FP unit no matter what it is. This holds true for fighters, they just have an easier time ganging up on stuff because they are faster. Fighters will probably continue to be strong until the AI understands that it should keep a flak frigate next to destroyers/cruisers. In this case, instead of 30 FP of fighters hitting a 20 FP cruiser it would be 30 FP of fighters going at a 20 FP cruiser and a 10 FP frigate and the frigate was been fitting for the sole purpose of smashing fighters with tons of things like burst lasers and flak guns and if the frigate can ding the fighter enough to kill its engines, the cruiser its gaurding will be able to use its large weapons to swat the fighter instantly.

So yes, fighters are OP, but only because they have no opposing force and are left unchecked.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: hadesian on May 10, 2012, 12:24:48 PM
The problem with the fighter heavy forces isn't the FP or the speed or the supplies. It is that nothing fights back against it. The AI is terrible at concentrating its forces which allows the most mobile fighters to swarm and destroy the AI fleet one by one.

30 FP of anything will trash a single 10-15 FP unit no matter what it is.

So yes, fighters are OP, but only because they have no opposing force and are left unchecked.

Ten talon wings would be easy prey to 3 Lashers armed for anti fighter
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Dri on May 10, 2012, 12:41:23 PM
Thats 40 freakin fighters - I think that may just be too many targets for 3 lashers since they can't equip flak due to no medium slots. Even if I'm wrong though I'm sure it'd be one hell of a show!
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Kommodore Krieg on May 10, 2012, 12:57:15 PM
The problem with the fighter heavy forces isn't the FP or the speed or the supplies. It is that nothing fights back against it. The AI is terrible at concentrating its forces which allows the most mobile fighters to swarm and destroy the AI fleet one by one.

30 FP of anything will trash a single 10-15 FP unit no matter what it is. This holds true for fighters, they just have an easier time ganging up on stuff because they are faster. Fighters will probably continue to be strong until the AI understands that it should keep a flak frigate next to destroyers/cruisers. In this case, instead of 30 FP of fighters hitting a 20 FP cruiser it would be 30 FP of fighters going at a 20 FP cruiser and a 10 FP frigate and the frigate was been fitting for the sole purpose of smashing fighters with tons of things like burst lasers and flak guns and if the frigate can ding the fighter enough to kill its engines, the cruiser its gaurding will be able to use its large weapons to swat the fighter instantly.

So yes, fighters are OP, but only because they have no opposing force and are left unchecked.

The AI is actually getting much better at concentrating it's forces.  I've seen it use light escort and full escort commands numerous times now.  Most of the time cruisers have multiple fighter wings escorting them if there are fighters available to do so.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Hardlyjoking67 on May 10, 2012, 01:41:03 PM
Quote
The AI is actually getting much better at concentrating it's forces.

ITS LEARNING!!! Jk lol, I do agree that the fighters are a tad overpowered. But really, it shouldn't matter. The only fleet in the game that will have way to many fighters will be the player. So as long as the player avoids purchasing an excess of fighters and cheapening their experience, then they are fine.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Temjin on May 10, 2012, 02:07:39 PM
Really? I run into pirate fleets all the time that have five or more wings of various types of fighters, and often deal with them in one ship with no problems.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Thaago on May 10, 2012, 02:17:24 PM
I think a useful AI improvement that would help against fighters would be some sort of logic to concentrate fire on one fighter at a time and prioritize the last few ships of a wing (to lower the incidence of retreating to a carrier). In that manner instead of fighting 4 half strength (and therefor full firepower) fighters a ship would only have to face 2 fighters worth of firepower.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: cp252 on May 10, 2012, 02:48:14 PM
Real anti-air gunners would normally not be well coordinated enough for that- and if they were, it makes more sense to shoot at those Daggers coming towards you readying their Reapers than the single Dagger running away with an empty launcher. It seems anti-air in this game (for ballistics at least) is manually targeted, WW2 style.
Warthogs don't seem to really do much of anything... they die. And they eat up two Lasher's worth of FP and cost as much as two Lashers. I don't see the point of them. Those vaunted guns of theirs aren't really enough to justify- they can't go air to air and they don't threaten anything bigger than a frigate unless you swarm. They're not fast enough to chase down frigates, they can't overwhelm anything that costs 7fp or greater...
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Catra on May 10, 2012, 05:33:43 PM
warthogs aren't for assaulting frigates though, they are for helping the rest of the fighter swarm take down bigger targets with their LAGs, which they do wonderfully.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: cp252 on May 11, 2012, 09:27:51 AM
Oh, for stripping away armour? I see what you mean.
I wish they'd get there before my stupid fighter swarm gets itself torn apart by a cruiser though.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: wormspeaker on May 12, 2012, 09:32:39 AM
It takes TONS of supplies to be able to effectively use a fighter fleet though. Compared to ships, fighters are much less powerful in a non-group situation, meaning unless you have a map with several comm relays, you will be at a significant disadvantage.

Once you are fighting fleets of a certain size you always have at least 4 capture points on the map. I can reliably get 3 with little trouble.

But that's not really what I'm getting at. The fleet point advantage can be really good, and I stack in 3 interceptor squads for the purpose of capturing three points right off the bat, but while it costs a lot of fleet points to maintain repair on my squads, once a fighter squad is damaged it comes back for a very quick regeneration to 100% and off it goes again.

It means that I can trade supplies for fleet points. If I carry enough supplies and keep my carriers away from the front lines, I can essentially replenish my fleet nearly infinitely. As others have stated, it's because the AI isn't effective at countering them, but the flight deck fix from last patch has made it much more effective at repairing in battle, and I am now noticing that all fighters are being repaired to 100% after the battle automatically, which was not happening before. So I have a fleet at 100% right away instead of having to wait for fighters to be repaired like other ships.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Cerevox on May 12, 2012, 12:39:16 PM
Yes, if you have a flight deck all fighters are repaired right after battle for however many supplies it takes. If you have the supplies to burn then fighters and carriers are near unkillable.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Catra on May 12, 2012, 01:10:19 PM
teehee, got that right, the reverse is true also:

i wasn't paying attention to my supply count and got into a relatively large fight, a quarter of the way through i get a " out of supplies " message, then my entire fighter squadron promptly got curb-stomped.
Title: Re: Fighters OP?
Post by: Thaago on May 12, 2012, 01:23:08 PM
Hmmm... maybe a solution to fighter respawn pownage would be to drastically increase (2x? 5x?) the supply cost for making new fighters (as opposed to just repairing and rearming) and have a "rebuild fighters" global toggle (like support weapon firing). This would increase the usefulness of cargo in general (having freighters increases the effectiveness of fighters). If this were the case I'd want a 'Warning: supplies at 10 days' message or something similar.