Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: BonhommeCarnaval on May 07, 2012, 02:01:56 PM
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I was under the impression that the Aurora was the most high tech cruiser out there, specializing in pure combat. You can see that easily when comparing it with the Apogee, the Apogee has MUCH better utility stats (cargo space for example). Now the Apogee ALSO has insanely better shields and the Aurora doesn't have much of a role.
I'm reffering to the shield efficiency of the Aurora being nerfed from 0.6 to 0.8, while the Apogee keeps the 0.6. The Paragon still has 0.6 aswell, making me wonder why the most high tech combat cruiser was not deemed worthy of the Tri-Tachyon's best shield generators. :P
Keep in mind that with hardened shields and an elite crew (which is not uncommon for an Aurora setup), the shield efficiency was nerfed from 0.3 to 0.5. The Aurora has effectively lost almost half of its survivability and it now a lame second grade cruiser.
For the sake of comparison, the Paragon has 0.6 shield efficiency just like the Apogee EXPLORATION cruiser. On the other hand, the Aurora's 0.8 efficiency is now matched by the mid-tech Eagle!
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Probably has to do with the fact that in the older version you could play tag with Onslaughts in an aurora, and kill them in that way. It was an absolutely overpowered beast of a ship.
Right now its still a damn fine ship, fast, maneuverable, good weapon arc spread, still good shields.
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Probably has to do with the fact that in the older version you could play tag with Onslaughts in an aurora, and kill them in that way. It was an absolutely overpowered beast of a ship.
Right now its still a damn fine ship, fast, maneuverable, good weapon arc spread, still good shields mid-tech shields outlcassed by an exploration cruiser.
Fixed.
PS : the Tempest and Hyperion (and many other smaller ships) can still beat an Onslaught. The Onslaught is supposed to be supported by smaller ships so that it doesn't fall for such tactics. The Aurora seems like it's supposed to be the cruiser equivalent of the Hyperion frigate, Medusa destroyer and Paragon capital ship, which are also top of the line, highest-tech pure combat ships. They all had the same shield efficiency (0.6) and they are all overpowered beasts of a ship except the 0.52 version of the Aurora.
Hyperion, frigate class, high tech, combat specialized, expensive but very powerful, 0.6 shield efficiency
Medusa, destroyer class, high tech, combat specialized, expensive but very powerful, 0.6 shield efficiency
Aurora, cruiser class, high tech, combat specialized, expensive but very powerful, 0.6 shield efficiency (nerfed to 0.8?!)
Paragon, capital class, high tech, combat specialized, expensive but very powerful, 0.6 shield efficiency
Now I might be wrong but I thought there was a pattern and that it was pretty balanced. The Aurora could be nerfed into a freighter for all I care, but that does leave a void. Will there be a new ship to fill the role of high tech, combat specialized cruiser? The role is now filled by the Apogee which has 0.6 shield efficiency, but is also specialized in cargo, fuel efficiency, crew capacity and hangar capacity. Seems overpowered. :P
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I don't think you understand just how bad it was. The former Aurora could stand in between two onslaughts and push a third one out of it's way to make itself an exit. The ship was insane. It could kill just about anything just by pushing it around with its shield, even onslaughts, escorts be damned. Hell, it could take out every escort it encountered and then get to the big guys. The darn thing was nigh unstoppable. And if you brought an escort of tempests and xyphos along then nothing could stand in your way.
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if you brought an escort of tempests and xyphos along then nothing could stand in your way.
Well then that's not a problem with the Aurora, that's a problem with the enemy not bringing his own escort of tempests and xyphos.
As for "how bad it was", I played it extensively pre-patch and it was nowhere near as good as you make it out to be. The only way it could match your claim is if you were playing with the 50% damage handicap, in which case you could also say that a player piloted Onslaught obliterates 5 AI Auroras so that point is moot. Even in 0.51 a Paragon was tougher than an Aurora in every way except size and speed, which would not be a factor if you were just "pushing 3 Onslaughts around with your shields", but as any experienced player knows, an Onslaught vs Paragon duel in 0.51 can go both ways if you play on normal mode (100% damage to player ship). The Onslaught has been boosted since then.
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I don't think you understand just how bad it was. The former Aurora could stand in between two onslaughts and push a third one out of it's way to make itself an exit. The ship was insane. It could kill just about anything just by pushing it around with its shield, even onslaughts, escorts be damned. Hell, it could take out every escort it encountered and then get to the big guys. The darn thing was nigh unstoppable. And if you brought an escort of tempests and xyphos along then nothing could stand in your way.
This, human controlled auoras were literally the best ship in the game, now it seems more like a cruiser, not an invincible death machine
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I have to agree that the aurora needed it. It was a complete rofl stomp on anything that moved.
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if you brought an escort of tempests and xyphos along then nothing could stand in your way.
Well then that's not a problem with the Aurora, that's a problem with the enemy not bringing his own escort of tempests and xyphos.
As for "how bad it was", I played it extensively pre-patch and it was nowhere near as good as you make it out to be. The only way it could match your claim is if you were playing with the 50% damage handicap, in which case you could also say that a player piloted Onslaught obliterates 5 AI Auroras so that point is moot. Even in 0.51 a Paragon was tougher than an Aurora in every way except size and speed, which would not be a factor if you were just "pushing 3 Onslaughts around with your shields", but as any experienced player knows, an Onslaught vs Paragon duel in 0.51 can go both ways if you play on normal mode (100% damage to player ship). The Onslaught has been boosted since then.
50% damage is the standard setting, that's how I play, I would guess thats how most play. Besides, the damage reduction is kind of a placeholder for character abilities/boosts that will eventually make it into the game so its still a valid argument and needs to be taking into account for game balance.
And yes, it really was that ridiculously good. Besides the broken 'Tachyon Lance at long range' it was the most balance breaking thing in the game I think.
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if you brought an escort of tempests and xyphos along then nothing could stand in your way.
Well then that's not a problem with the Aurora, that's a problem with the enemy not bringing his own escort of tempests and xyphos.
As for "how bad it was", I played it extensively pre-patch and it was nowhere near as good as you make it out to be. The only way it could match your claim is if you were playing with the 50% damage handicap, in which case you could also say that a player piloted Onslaught obliterates 5 AI Auroras so that point is moot. Even in 0.51 a Paragon was tougher than an Aurora in every way except size and speed, which would not be a factor if you were just "pushing 3 Onslaughts around with your shields", but as any experienced player knows, an Onslaught vs Paragon duel in 0.51 can go both ways if you play on normal mode (100% damage to player ship). The Onslaught has been boosted since then.
50% damage is the standard setting, that's how I play, I would guess thats how most play. Besides, the damage reduction is kind of a placeholder for character abilities/boosts that will eventually make it into the game so its still a valid argument and needs to be taking into account for game balance.
And yes, it really was that ridiculously good. Besides the broken 'Tachyon Lance at long range' it was the most balance breaking thing in the game I think.
It was beastly (and still is) even at 100% dmg.
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human controlled auoras were literally the best ship in the game
This, human controlled tempests were literally the best ship in the game
This, human controlled hyperions were literally the best ship in the game
This, human controlled medusas were literally the best ship in the game
This, human controlled paragons were literally the best ship in the game
This, human controlled onslaughts were literally the best ship in the game
Seems like you can say that about a lot of ships! Try a human controlled Onslaught against any ship, or even a Dominator. Then look at an AI controlled Aurora (I kill those in a frigate even in 0.51). Of course most human controlled ships are overpowered, that's not the ship.
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You've got to look at the entire picture. I'm not saying the balance is perfect now, but the reason for the shield downgrade is the combination of mobility and staying power was much too good.
If you want a lore justification, let's say that while it's a high-tech ship, the hull design is optimized around giving the ship its superior engines, and a slightly inferior shield generator is one sacrifice that had to be made.
Will there be a new ship to fill the role of high tech, combat specialized cruiser? The role is now filled by the Apogee which has 0.6 shield efficiency ...
Come now, that's rather blowing it out of proportion :) The Aurora is still a very good ship, and clearly the military high tech cruiser. The change just emphasizes how it's meant to be used - as a fast attack ship (for its size), outmaneuvering its enemies, rather than just tanking everything.
Side note: the Hyperion doesn't quite belong on that list - it's supposed to be a cut above the other ships, for its size class. You can see that from its armament and a general lack of non-combat utility.
Side note #2: Game-mechanics-wise, shield efficiency is used to influence the balance between the offense and defense for a ship. The 0.6/0.8/1+ high/mid/low tech values were just a starting point, not something set in stone for the different tech types. You can expect those numbers to change more over time, too. (For an example: see what happened to the Conquest's shield efficiency in 0.52a - it's now 1.4).
So, while the general trend will continue to be higher efficiency for high tech ships - mainly because of their lower armor - there will be exceptions, where needed to get the ship to fill its intended role better.
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I have to agree with the majority on this one, i've been playing SF for ages and the Aurora has long been my favorite ship because it can't be beat, even with 100% damage (which is all I play) it's a monster. But buddy, even after the nerf I can still take on ANY AI controlled ship 1v1 or probably even 2v1 without any trouble at all in a fully fit Aurora. It is odd that it got a nerf when the others didn't but as it stands it DID need one to stay on par with them. They might all have .6 shields but the god-mode Aurora has an insane frontal assault, more so than anything in the game even close to its size, and I can personally tell you I can take on an onslaught head-on with the updated Aurora without breaking a sweat. So yeah it may suck that it's slightly less crazy but lets all be honest here, it needed it, as much as it pains me to say so.
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Yeah, seriously dude, its not the end of the world that the shields have been slightly nerfed. Seems like you just want to be able to go shields up 100% of the time and not give a damn about anything else. :-X
Its the fastest cruiser in the game with great weapon slots and it still has amazing shields compared to any of the midline and lowtech ships. Its still the best cruiser there is as it can fly circles around most others. The Apogee is slower, has fewer ordinance points, less flux capacity, less armor, less hull integrity etc etc.
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50% damage is the standard setting, that's how I play, I would guess thats how most play. Besides, the damage reduction is kind of a placeholder for character abilities/boosts that will eventually make it into the game so its still a valid argument and needs to be taking into account for game balance.
And yes, it really was that ridiculously good. Besides the broken 'Tachyon Lance at long range' it was the most balance breaking thing in the game I think.
Half damage is the default setting, and I seriously doubt it is a placeholder for anything at all. You can't balance something like a 50% damage reduction. A ship with it will always destroy anything comparable, period. I will be incredibly surprised if officer abilities increases the effectiveness your ship alone by anything approaching 50%. No hard feeling intended, but you really are playing the game 'easy mode'.
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It was as good a cruiser as the Paragon is a good capital ship. It also has crappy utility stats just like the Hyperion. I think it would be more appropriate to exchange the speeds between the Aurora and Apogee and let the Aurora have the 0.6 shields. That would match the Tempest-?-Apogee-Odyssey line of fastest ships with slightly inferior shields and good utlity stats. You could also nerf the Apogee, Hyperion, Paragon and Medusa's shields to 0.8 and that would also make sense, I'm not entirely against some sort of nerf there.
Note that the Medusa has 0.6 shields and is the fastest destroyer aswell. The Apogee has 0.6 shields and is the best utility cruiser aswell. I just don't see what the Aurora does anymore, that the Apogee doesn't. It's not much of a problem, I guess I'll just fly an Apogee and be just as tough with way better cargo/hangars/crew. :P
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There's no "better" ship. Don't talk absolute.
I take my custom Conquest over any Paragon any day.
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Half damage is the default setting, and I seriously doubt it is a placeholder for anything at all. You can't balance something like a 50% damage reduction. A ship with it will always destroy anything comparable, period. I will be incredibly surprised if officer abilities increases the effectiveness your ship alone by anything approaching 50%. No hard feeling intended, but you really are playing the game 'easy mode'.
Character not Officer. Doubt all you want, I'll take Alex word over yours.
The Apogee has 0.6 shields and is the best utility cruiser aswell. I just don't see what the Aurora does anymore, that the Apogee doesn't. It's not much of a problem, I guess I'll just fly an Apogee and be just as tough with way better cargo/hangars/crew. :P
The Apogee has 'weird' weapon placement, leaving it somewhat incapable of a strike ship, the Aurora has really good weapon placement plus a great missile bank on it's front. They have different roles.
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The Apogee can't fight nearly as well as the Aurora even post nerf. I'll take a nerfed Aurora over an Apogee for pure combat any day. The Apogee has weird weapon placements and most of it's good weaponry is hard pointed. The Aurora just flies circles around you and pounds you non stop with at least 2 heavy blasters. If it comes at your from the front you are probably going to die or take obscene damage because 9 sabots followed by a mivr and a heavy blaster barrage means your either going to overload instantly and then be destroyed or take massive hull damage and hope you can get shields up after the sabots deluge has passed. The Apogee on the other hand comes at you with one Large hardpoint and two oddly placed med energy turrets.
Even lore wise it makes sense, the Apogee is designed for exploration not combat, and is packed with technology, hence the emphasis on defense over offense and the effective shielding. The Aurora's emphasis is on attack, and that's why it has firepower and speed in droves. Even then it still has excellent shields supported by a huge flux capacity and dissipation. Now you actually have to maneuver some instead of parking in front of an Onslaught and blasting.
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I don't see a problem. The Aurora was VERY powerful for its class, and remains so. It's just less ridiculous. And it's a hell of a lot better combat ship than the awkward Apogee.
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Half damage is the default setting, and I seriously doubt it is a placeholder for anything at all. You can't balance something like a 50% damage reduction. A ship with it will always destroy anything comparable, period. I will be incredibly surprised if officer abilities increases the effectiveness your ship alone by anything approaching 50%. No hard feeling intended, but you really are playing the game 'easy mode'.
Character not Officer. Doubt all you want, I'll take Alex word over yours.
Just to clear that up - the 50% damage setting is there to make the learning curve a bit easier for new players - or to simply make it a slightly more relaxing game to play, if that's what one prefers. But in terms of balance and such, it's being built around 100% damage to player ships.
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Half damage is the default setting, and I seriously doubt it is a placeholder for anything at all. You can't balance something like a 50% damage reduction. A ship with it will always destroy anything comparable, period. I will be incredibly surprised if officer abilities increases the effectiveness your ship alone by anything approaching 50%. No hard feeling intended, but you really are playing the game 'easy mode'.
Character not Officer. Doubt all you want, I'll take Alex word over yours.
Just to clear that up - the 50% damage setting is there to make the learning curve a bit easier for new players - or to simply make it a slightly more relaxing game to play, if that's what one prefers. But in terms of balance and such, it's being built around 100% damage to player ships.
I could have sworn you said it may be incorporated as a character ability. Hmm... Time to dig throe your post history.
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Vandala he just called you noob! OWND!
jk :)
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There's no "better" ship. Don't talk absolute.
I take my custom Conquest over any Paragon any day.
True.
The Conquest is the perfect flagship; low Fleet Point cost, good cargo & fighter capacity, relatively fast, and has great weapon mounts for kiting.
As part of a fleet it's unmatchable in the close support role.
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Vandala he just called you noob! OWND!
jk :)
Nope, just a correction, which I'm always happy with.
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There's no "better" ship. Don't talk absolute.
I take my custom Conquest over any Paragon any day.
True.
The Conquest is the perfect flagship; low Fleet Point cost, good cargo & fighter capacity, relatively fast, and has great weapon mounts for kiting.
As part of a fleet it's unmatchable in the close support role.
Yeah and you can do pretty weird things with it. My current variant has 2 pd lasers on one side (not even the med energy used on that side) and a full broadside on the other. 1v1 on autopilot it disintegrate the standard conquest in like 10 seconds, using full broadside fire and superbuffed shields. I think there's a bug though as I tried mounting at least a heavy burst laser on the unguarded side and that seemed to bug the broadside calculations, since it starts facing the completely wrong way, using the broadside with just that single weapon).
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Oh come on. It was widely accepted for the longest time that the Aurora was ridiculous.
This entire topic is pretty much complaining that an almost insta-win ship has been turned into a still above-average ship. The Aurora was outgunning Capital Ships due to it's shields. The Aurora is a freaking cruiser. This shouldn't have been happening.
IMO, this balancing was long overdue and the tears of everyone used to cruising around in an easy-mode ship are sweet.
You know, if you're THAT unhappy with it, you could always mod it back to the way it was. No one is FORCING you to play legit.
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This entire topic is pretty much complaining that an almost insta-win ship has been turned into a still above-average ship. The Aurora was outgunning Capital Ships due to it's shields. The Aurora is a freaking cruiser. This shouldn't have been happening.
It's more than a above average cruiser, it's pretty much the best cruiser in the game. Sure, the Dominator is hilarious and all but the Aurora blends speed, shields, flux management, firepower, pretty much everything into a single ship. Even after the deserved nerf it's a powerhouse. The only downside is its rarity and pricetag.
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I actually don't really like it. Haven't had my hands on it pre-patch, but now I got one, and I was kind of disappointed. But that may be because I don't like heavy blasters, because they are so flux intensive, and I'm also not a missile guy. With the new extremely cool autopulse I just get an Odyssey for just a single FP more.
Still, the nerf is probably very reasonable. I just fear, that next patch it's time to nerf the Medusa. That thing is way more OP then the Aurora...
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Try using pulse lasers instead of the heavy blasters. They are pretty dang rockin.
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I actually don't really like it. Haven't had my hands on it pre-patch, but now I got one, and I was kind of disappointed. But that may be because I don't like heavy blasters, because they are so flux intensive, and I'm also not a missile guy. With the new extremely cool autopulse I just get an Odyssey for just a single FP more.
Still, the nerf is probably very reasonable. I just fear, that next patch it's time to nerf the Medusa. That thing is way more OP then the Aurora...
As much as I love the Medusa, I actually don't think its that overpowered, at least compared to the other combat destroyers. With the energy pd getting good and the increased firing arcs the Hammerhead is quite potent - much more durable than the Medusa as well. The Enforcer suffers from its speed a bit but is a freaking beast with the change to flux capacitors and 5 medium slots. My own personal Medusa variant did get nerfed cause of the railgun change - which is good because before they were ridiculous.
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I'd argue that the Enforcer is nastier than the Medusa. Sure, it can't catch the Medusa, but with how powerful medium ballistics slots are (and the area denial/burst damage available via rockets and missiles), it can do some SERIOUS damage at long range. Medusae get overwhelmed very easily in fleet engagements too, while the Enforcer can mount flaks to ease off the pain of missiles and strike craft.
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Yeah I love them both. They both fill different roles.
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One thing - I would happily take my single Onslaught against nearly any fleet. Gauss cannons own at a range, heavy armour makes the monstrosity hard to move but pretty much friggin unkillable, extended mags (though nerfed) is insane on my weaponry, there's just so much this ship has that means it doesn't need support. I love my conquest (interesting weapon design, due to lack of resources, one side has dual hellbores and the other has dual gauss cannons - result is insane close and distance fighting, if you can wheel the damn thing around), but the stompy power that the onslaught brings is awesome.
That said, I do stick a Hypervelocity driver and heavy mauler on the rear of my ship. I've never had any problem with tempests - ever. That does however make sure they die (hypervelocity driver for shields and heavy mauler for armour and hull).
On subject of the aurora - it's not mobile enough for me, and the lack of a large energy weapon slot is crippling IMO (heavy blasters, OK, but I have a tachyon lance, autopulse, plasma cannon...), it's just like a big enforcer. Even my Astral could beat it (taken to using it, one wing of thunders to distract the enemy and they're an easy target for the hurricane MIRV's - another insane working idea).
That said, isn't the Apogee a very aggressive exploration cruiser?
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Yeah I think that exploration part is said with a wink and a knowing grin. :)
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I think the "exploration" bit deals with the fact that the weapons setup and loadout is, erm, "eclectic" to say the least.
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Yeah I think that exploration part is said with a wink and a knowing grin. :)
Where are you going to explore that you need a Plasma Cannon?
Dirty mind kicks in. Heeeeh, Heeeeh, heeeeeh....
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My point exactly, the Apogee is now the tanky high tech cruiser, even though it doesn't have the sleek armored highest tech pure combat look of the Hyperion-Medusa-Aurora-Paragon line. It's very weird on a cruiser that has almost as good utility stats as an Odyssey (minus flight deck) but oh well, I can buy an Apogee for the price of a Hyperion so I'll just do that from now on. :P
By the way Alex, I used to get 0.3 shield efficiency using Hardened Shields and an Elite crew. I'd get -0.1 for the shield mod and -0.1 for each extra level of a crew (so -0.2). After the patch I get 0.4 on the Aurora, I expected to get 0.5. I imagine this is just rounding innacuracy? Is it possible we could get an extra decimal on the display? Also what is the actual effect of each crew level on the shield efficiency? I imagine it's not actually -0.1.
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Well it's not "tanky" by any means. Not to me. But it is fun and it does have promise.
If I wanted to do straight combat I'd still go aurora all the way.
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Well it's not "tanky" by any means. Not to me. But it is fun and it does have promise.
If I wanted to do straight combat I'd still go aurora all the way.
It's barely less tanky than the 0.51 Aurora. Most of the Aurora's flux dissipation advantage is made up for by the Apogee's lower flux cost for the shields, and the effective hitpoints of the Apogee are now way higher than that of the Aurora with its barely higher flux capacity.
I'm still messing around trying to figure out what weapon loadout I want on the Apogee, but it certainly feels superior in combat. It also costs 1 less FP and it's going to be insanely useful in the full campaign because of all the non-combat stats it has, just look at its cargo capacity.
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What loadout are you guys putting on your Apogee's to make them so tough? I can't find a single Apogee loadout that I like! I honestly consider it to be far far weaker than either an Eagle or an Aurora. Between the hardpoint small energy slots (huh?), the medium energy turrets mounted about 400 units in back of the ship, and the backwards facing missile launcher... it has an incomparably weird weapon design that kinda fails to bring guns onto the target. Its not a bad ship but I don't really consider it a top tier combat ship (which it shouldn't be given the role/out of combat abilities). Its lots of defense, not much offense.
Even after the nerfing of the shields the Aurora it still rather badass, at least imo. Heavy blasters are kind of awesome, and the Aurora has the flux to wield them very well.
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I stick ir pulses in the small hardpoints. Autopulse up front in the large. burst pd in the weird pd slots. Med reaper launcher in the side slot and grav beams in the back (ignore the small missile). Then you load up on hull mods and vents.
It's sweet. Not as fast or as pretty as an aurora, but pretty dang tough.
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Hmm, I'll have to try the autopulse. I played around with the Apogee for a bit previously, and I couldn't ever figure out what people see in it.
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It's tricksy. It's fun to kite people with the HIL, but not very effective as far as I can tell. But it's a good trollolol setup. :) Tachyon lance is good of course. But that's not nearly as fun.
Plasma is good, too. I prefer the autopulse, though. More my particular style.
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The Apogee's always been my favorite ship, by far. I use a plasma cannon, two antimatter blasters in the small hardpoints, and a hurricane MIRV. PD isn't really necessary with 360 shields and a massive flux reserve. It'll instagib anything smaller than a cruiser, and overload any shields in a couple salvos.
I've always disliked the Aurora. It only really functions well with everything (aside from missiles) on autofire, so there's no real combat involved. Floating around spamming missiles and tanking isn't all that enjoyable.
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No I'd have to disagree there. Aurora is dang fun. Spamming missiles is one of my favorite things, though, haha.
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Eh, missile spam definitely has its merits. :)
Plasma cannon spam is in an entirely different stratum of fun, though.
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Also what is the actual effect of each crew level on the shield efficiency? I imagine it's not actually -0.1.
Elite crew means -20% damage. The tooltips on the crew in the inventory screen lists all the numbers since the latest patch.