Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: GreaseMan on January 17, 2021, 07:22:57 AM
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I'm trying to learn how to play, not get owned by battle cruisers in every single pirate fleet. Why does this game scale so *** hard? If you must have scaling shouldn't there just be an increase in pirate strength near their base? (No I will not download mods to fix my gameplay experience. Especially not a first playthrough)
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Yeah, it sucks to get ganked by a bigger fleet. I am a veteran and it still makes me ragequit regularly. There is no scaling, though. Some fleets are large, some are tiny.
The best way to handle it is to have great sensor range and a very small sensor profile. If you are still worried about getting caught, make sure all your ships are fast so they can get away in a pursuit battle.
Okay, there is one place that scales - bounty fleets get bigger the more of them you kill - but you have to go hunting those.
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This game is hard. I always play with Iron Mode on, so I failed probably 20-30 times, before I got a grasp on how to play properly. My strategy in the beginning is to buy wolfs and hounds. I install safety overrides on every ship and I'm too fast for anyone to get me, both on the map and battlefield. Also wolfs can teleport which makes them very agile. Hounds are great at carrying cargo. Both ships are cheap and fairly common.
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Random pirates don't even scale that much. I.e. when you're hunting in-system bounties and there happens to be a pirate colony there, there will always be some small fry fleets around just like in the early game. As long as you are moving around the core worlds, rogue fleets should not scale too hard.
But expedition fleets, pirate raid fleets and random hostile stations from pirates and LP will always scale.
An essential skill in this game is learning sensor gameplay. How to move without being seen, learning where you can turn transponders off and how you can do that in core systems and still get away with it. How to catch fleets that are running away from you (because they're weaker) and how to evade fleets that try to chase you down (because they're stronger, or because the AI *thinks* it can beat you).
Unless you are way into the late game and have a big scary fleet decked out, there will usually be fleets around that are stronger than you. The question is not "why does every pirate fleet I engage have cruisers in it?" but "why am I letting myself get caught by all these superior pirate fleets, and what can I do differently?" Good luck. ;)
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Artificial enemy scaling is a crutch for bad games like Skyrim, hope to see it gone from Starsector once the dev figures how to have compelling difficulty without it. Enemies in an open world game becoming stronger for no reason other than "player is higher level" kills much of what makes a world feel alive and is a big reason why Morrowind (the TES game that preceeded Oblivion and Skyrim) is infinitely better than the casualized sequels.
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(Just fyi - the game doesn't scale based on player level! I'm very much not a fan of games doing that, myself. Pirates do ramp up over time to a certain maximum, though; iirc it takes about 2 cycles to reach that.)
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Approached from the right angle, pirates are an endless source of salvage and cheap, expendable ships. Given that in vanilla the pirates aren't on good terms with anybody, all you need to do is be near friendlies, wait for the pirates to get caught, then jump in and help wreck them for easy salvage, XP and reputation. If you're venturing out alone, either roll very small fleets or as big as you can get; if you can't be sneaky you need to be armed for WAR.
When travelling, it can be helpful to shadow friendly fleets in hyperspace, especially bounty hunters; their presence makes pirates think twice and if they engage first, you've got another easy win. You also have the option of becoming friendly with the pirates which will take a LOT of heat off; this may take some work if you want to avoid being hated by everyone else.
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(Just fyi - the game doesn't scale based on player level! Pirates do ramp up over time to a certain maximum, though; iirc it takes about 2 cycles to reach that.)
Oh yeah, I was referring to modern TES games where player character level causes anything "hostile" to become stronger and causes random caves to be inhabitated by multiple bandit warlords.
Didn't know it was entirely time-based in SS, always thought certain things like number of colonies controlled had an impact.
Still think it's really bad, seeing pirates gratuitously becoming so strong they threaten every world in the endgame as a form of artificial difficulty, and the player alone having to clean up most pirates with a mega fleet to stop them from stomping everything as if the player is the sector's Jesus (or would it be Ludd? Don't let the Pathers hear that lol). Rather than being a part of a living Sector, it feels more like you're the chosen one and the long-lived factions in the game become helpless NPC villagers.
Hoping factions in the game will become competent and able to defend themselves better in later updates on top of difficulty being more natural.
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Pirate raids will be toned down in the next release!
It's not really a form of artificial difficulty, btw - at least, it's not intended to be. They're basically over-tuned by accident; them becoming an existential threat to the core worlds wasn't intentional. Things that happen in longer games - with the current release lacking an endgame and things that connect to it - are going to have rough edges. It's just not something I've spent a lot of time on because it'd have to be re-done at some point anyway, you know?
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They're basically over-tuned by accident; them becoming an existential threat to the core worlds wasn't intentional. Things that happen in longer games - with the current release lacking an endgame and things that connect to it - are going to have rough edges. It's just not something I've spent a lot of time on because it'd have to be re-done at some point anyway, you know?
Glad to hear that! It makes me excited for the future and seeing what the final end game is gonna look like.
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As stated elsewhere, named bounties scale by how many are killed. However, it does not take many kills for them to spike too much too fast. In the current release, ships bigger than frigates were made more expensive, but bounties scale as quickly as they did in releases before (which were fast to begin with). Unless player min-maxes for combat (and maybe use pristine ships), there are spikes when player cannot catch up.
50k, five or so frigates.
80k-100k, about ten ships that are a mix of destroyers and frigates.
150k, multiple cruisers plus destroyers and frigates like in previous tier; also, deserters with many pristine or one-mod ships become common.
200k, one to three capitals, plus cruisers and stuff from previous tier; Hegemony System Defense fleets from 0.6.2a and earlier releases were this strong.
250k+, six to ten capitals, the rest are mostly cruisers.
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Oblivion, this game doesn't scale like that. Bounties are the only directly scaling thing, and it scales to the number of bounties you get, to a cap which is reached somewhat quickly. Bandits are just a time gate you can reset at any time(the timing is an issue, but setting.jsom editing works as a solution short-term) and procurement missions scale to your cargo capacity, which can be changed(in my experience, I haven't done extensive testing.) In-born system fleets dont change.
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Also, avoid selling blueprints to the pirates. I want to think that selling those blueprints or hulls to pirates will enable them to eventually start using those blueprints or hulls. I could be wrong, but sure seems like I have seen this kind of thing happen. I.E. Don't sell blueprints of a Paragon to pirates, unless you want to eventually start fighting Paragons.
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Also, avoid selling blueprints to the pirates. I want to think that selling those blueprints or hulls to pirates will enable them to eventually start using those blueprints or hulls. I could be wrong, but sure seems like I have seen this kind of thing happen. I.E. Don't sell blueprints of a Paragon to pirates, unless you want to eventually start fighting Paragons.
That is correct.
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I'm trying to learn how to play, not get owned by battle cruisers in every single pirate fleet. Why does this game scale so *** hard? If you must have scaling shouldn't there just be an increase in pirate strength near their base? (No I will not download mods to fix my gameplay experience. Especially not a first playthrough)
Try this:
Get an Afflictor (Phase Ship), put two to four Anti-Matter Blasters.
Slip around outside of the enemy ship's shield (usually to the engines).
Introduce it to the "Prison Treatment."
Example: https://youtu.be/B9bZvDA35KM
look around 3:30. The strategy works great even against capitols assuming you have enough afflictors. Also, you'll want to pilot the afflictor. The AI are "OK-ish" with phase ships.
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Pirate raids will be toned down in the next release!
It's not really a form of artificial difficulty, btw - at least, it's not intended to be. They're basically over-tuned by accident; them becoming an existential threat to the core worlds wasn't intentional. Things that happen in longer games - with the current release lacking an endgame and things that connect to it - are going to have rough edges. It's just not something I've spent a lot of time on because it'd have to be re-done at some point anyway, you know?
You know what, fair. didn't really think of it myself. I also don't think it's artificial difficulty in general to begin with since it becomes an enforced thing you have to handle anyway, even if all you do is sit in a tiny nothing fleet of 5 wolves all game until the core collapses. It's not even responsive to the player; it's a scaling issue with the geometric and unlimited growth of pirates.
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I don't even think pirate fleets scale up over time.
They start off at full strength for the sector since NPC colonies don't grow over time. I haven't noticed if they do.
Pirates will start scaling against you because they scale up as your economy grows.
Still, it is pretty funny to see pirates show up in Penelope's Star system when I have 9 colonies with 9 high commands and 9 star fortresses. You just Set It and Forget It!
Remember to fuel the religious terrorists at Calcedon and Epiphany. They love their drugs, marines, and supplies.
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I find early game is mostly only hard because AI is hard to control and often makes... questionable choices that end up getting it killed, like splitting off from the group and fighting 5 ships at once. It can even get a monitor killed if it tries really hard, a feat of legend. After you get some tougher ships that can take an occasional blunder and dish out lots of damage, it gets a lot easier. Outside of battles, you have to learn what to avoid and how to do it. I find that sustained burn gets me away from scary fleets pretty easily, even with slow late-game ships. Yes, it stops you initially, but if you start it early enough, the AI won't catch you, you will either move twice as fast as it does at regular speed, or it will use an emergency burn, which is a little faster, but usually doesn't last long enough for them to catch up to you. You should also keep your transponder off in hostile space.
Oh yeah, I was referring to modern TES games where player character level causes anything "hostile" to become stronger and causes random caves to be inhabitated by multiple bandit warlords.
Don't forget the city guards that are harder to kill than a dragon.
Also, avoid selling blueprints to the pirates
Is it to pirates? I always thought it's on any black market.
Blueprints sold on black markets can be learnt & incorporated by Pirates after some time (60-120 in-game days). This only occurs on the black market and not other submarkets.
Try this:
Get an Afflictor (Phase Ship), put two to four Anti-Matter Blasters.
One of my favorite loadouts. Here's another one: harbinger with 3 heavy blasters or 2 blasters and a phase lance, hardened subsystems, safety overrides, max out vents. Lasts and lives longer, takes down or distracts entire fleets. Can crack open annoying ships like monitors or phasing ones, like a tin can, by disabling their systems for a second.
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I'm just amazed someone decided comparing Starsector to Oblivion made a good comparison, even on a single facet.