Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Gothars on October 31, 2020, 08:55:49 AM
-
I want to suggest a toggle in the weapon group menu that either unifies or separates different weapon types within a group.
(https://i.imgur.com/mG0GW2d.jpg)
If unified, they behave as now, all weapons in it will fire. If separated, the group will fire the weapons of one type only, and you have to select the group a second time to be able to fire the weapons of another type.
For example, you could put your two Sabot- and two Harpoon-launchers into group 2 and choose "separated". If you hit "2"in combat, you fire only the Sabots with every click (either "alternating" or "linked", that toggle also still applies). Once the enemy shield is down, you select the group again with "2" and now fire the Harpoons with every click.
(https://i.imgur.com/lGn4mqq.jpg)
The advantage should be obvious, it allows you to put weapons that you'd normally put in different groups into one group, freeing up groups to control other weapons more precisely.
A disadvantage of such a group is that you can't fire all weapons within it together, so you give up max firepower for finer control. E.g., it's nice to have kinetic and HE guns fire separately as long as you are in a flux contest, but once the enemy is overloaded and its armor broken, you might prefer pure dps from firing everything at once. That would not work well with a separated group.
I think it's really best for weapons you never want to fire together, like missiles with different damage types, or two very flux limited weapon types with different damage types.
-
Why are we trying to achieve the effect of adding more weapon groups without adding more weapon groups?
-
The point is, it requires minimal UI changes, those being the main reason we don't have more weapon groups already.
-
Ah, I didn't know UI was the main reservation. Is the issue just that the list of weapon groups in the combat UI would be too long/take up too much space?
-
What if I want to disable autofire of that group? It's still gonna disable/enable everything within that group. Sure it's better than current 5 and only 5 weapon groups but this seems like such an overcomplicated "fix" for something so basic as adding a 6th weapon group. I really don't think another group will screw the UI so much, besides, number of different weapons clutters the combat screen much more than number of weapon groups. If someone thinks even 6 groups is not enough then there should probably be a significant change of some sort.
-
If you can get it to work, I don't see why not but the extra button presses will take some getting used to.
Does "separation" just parse out (and group) same-type weapons? Would we need a shift+hotkey to reverse the cycle order if you've got something like 3+ weapon types in one group? (For example, an Eagle with a Heavy Blaster, AM Blaster and 2 Reapers all in one group).
I presume this would have virtually no effect on AI loadouts.
-
Kind of feels like solving a problem that doesn't really exist IMO.
I find the larger capital ships I end up using auto fire, as there's just so much going on and so many turrets to control you can't possibly.
Then in the smaller ships where you *would* want to control individual firing groups, that the existing mechanic works fine and is granular enough.
-
I presume this would have virtually no effect on AI loadouts.
Hmm, I'm not super keen on additional things that further differentiate the AI and the player's capability - such as this implication would likely result in. The benefit of additional weapon groups is that it allows for more weapon types for AI ship builds as well. (UI issue makes that tough, certainly, but if work was done on weapon control I'd rather it be towards that then additional fine tune functionality for the player only.)
Now, if the AI could be adjusted to also support the unified/separated idea then I'd be all for it. I feel that the use case here is more for missiles than for other weapons anyway. They tend to have more niche uses that require timing to be the most effective - so grouping different types together is generally not a good idea.
-
It's an interesting idea, but feels like a placeholder for more weapon groups... which I think will have to happen at some point anyway. Numbers are easier on muscle memory because a number corresponds exactly to the group you set it as, whereas with a subgroup selection you first have to learn which of the subgroups comes first - and is it always the same one? Does it depend on which weapons have autofired? Classic weapon groups require less game pausing so you don't screw up and fire harpoons when you meant to fire sabots, etc.
Not to mention that more weapon groups are in the AIs best interest too, so it has better control over which weapons are essential during high flux and which ones aren't. We could have the luxury of putting kinetics in their own groups.
-
feels like a placeholder for more weapon groups...
That it is. I'd also prefer more weapon groups, but they were requested for many years now. At this point I'm not sure if they will come eventually or never.
I thought of this as an (hopefully) easy to implement alternative.
-
@Gothars @intrinsic_parity
In the thread about the patch notes Alex said he didn't want to add more weapon groups (for now) because it's a bigger task than what he's prepared to get into. (paraphrasing) He didn't specify that the problem was on the UI side, or any specific side, but was/seemed to be talking in general.
I took it as him stating that the weapon groups tie into more systems than might be obvious, as well as all the more obvious things that'd need work (like the UI side), and this all adding up to be a pretty daunting task when looking at the total picture.
-
Argh, I might as well just add more groups! That UI would benefit from an overhaul, anyway.
https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/1323015744364388353
To clarify: it's the UI work, yeah (I'd say 75% of the work, because the old one totally breaks down if you add more groups, things just don't fit anymore), but also the number "5" being hardcoded for max weapon groups in an embarrassingly large number of places. I've done my best to scour through the codebase and change it (to 7, sigh), but if anything slipped through, you should probably blame Gothars.
(Edit: before anyone calls it out, I fixed the autofire checkboxes alignment issue :))
-
Argh, I might as well just add more groups! That UI would benefit from an overhaul, anyway.
Thank you, Alex! This is wonderfully beneficial ;D
-
To clarify: it's the UI work, yeah (I'd say 75% of the work, because the old one totally breaks down if you add more groups, things just don't fit anymore), but also the number "5" being hardcoded for max weapon groups in an embarrassingly large number of places. I've done my best to scour through the codebase and change it (to 7, sigh), but if anything slipped through, you should probably blame Gothars.
Using magic numbers instead of a constant? Shame!
-
Gothars is hardly the only one asking for this... I am happy to see more weapon groups.
But anyway, is there going to be a tooltip explaining that you need to press the weapon group to change it from linked to alternating and vice versa? I've seen a couple of people asking about that.
Also, are you touching upon weapon group related combat UI? If so, it would be nice if unselected groups showed only their autofire status and only the selected group showed the weapons.
-
Using magic numbers instead of a constant? Shame!
I'm pretty sure the rules are that if I admit to doing something embarrassing in code, you don't immediately shame me for it! I mean, I already know it's bad :)
Gothars is hardly the only one asking for this... I am happy to see more weapon groups.
Yeah, but - need someone handy to blame!
But anyway, is there going to be a tooltip explaining that you need to press the weapon group to change it from linked to alternating and vice versa? I've seen a couple of people asking about that.
It's explained in the column heading tooltip, yeah. And the alternating/linked behavior specifics are elaborated on. Basically, a lot of tooltips everywhere there.
Also, are you touching upon weapon group related combat UI? If so, it would be nice if unselected groups showed only their autofire status and only the selected group showed the weapons.
Not touching it this time around, no. (If they only show autofire status, then it seems like it'd be a pain to select the right group sometimes, unless you have it memorized... still, yeah, it could use to be cut down somehow. Maybe a few weapon icons for the most-numerous weapon in the group, arranged horizontally for all the non-selected groups, or some such. Meaning to look at this at some point!)
-
Whoa! Thanks Alex! :)
-
This just shows that Alex is the ultimate troll. Thread after thread asking for more groups, nothing, here comes Gothars proposing a solution WITHOUT adding groups, and kaboom we get 2 more. Truly the work of an evil mastermind.
Just kidding btw, reaaaaly appreciate the huge QoL change, plus the redesign of UI. (It's painful having to play the cirrent version when so much great QoL stuff has been already implemented.)
-
Using magic numbers instead of a constant? Shame!
I'm pretty sure the rules are that if I admit to doing something embarrassing in code, you don't immediately shame me for it! I mean, I already know it's bad :)
I mean, I just changed some vars on a whim from private to public static and blew saves, so... :-X
-
Yay.
It might look like a small change (for the amount of work it cost you) but since this mostly affects "end game" ships like the direct combat capitals i think this improvement might be a lot bigger than it appears at first glance.
(Could feel really restrictive to outfit or pilot them, made worse because the restriction was artificial.)
-
you should probably blame Gothars.
I'll take it ;D
e/ And just to immediately dispel any potential illusion that ...certain elements of the community will ever be satisfied and stop trying to make Starsector better: While you are working on it, how about a toggle in that UI to make a group fire directly when selected? That also comes up since, like, 2011^^"
-
This just shows that Alex is the ultimate troll. Thread after thread asking for more groups, nothing, here comes Gothars proposing a solution WITHOUT adding groups, and kaboom we get 2 more. Truly the work of an evil mastermind.
Just kidding btw, reaaaaly appreciate the huge QoL change, plus the redesign of UI. (It's painful having to play the cirrent version when so much great QoL stuff has been already implemented.)
:D (Also, sorry! I can totally see how that'd be.)
I mean, I just changed some vars on a whim from private to public static and blew saves, so... :-X
(So long as it's not "final", those are like a giant middle finger to future you...)
Yay.
It might look like a small change (for the amount of work it cost you) but since this mostly affects "end game" ships like the direct combat capitals i think this improvement might be a lot bigger than it appears at first glance.
(Could feel really restrictive to outfit or pilot them, made worse because the restriction was artificial.)
*thumbs up* I'm happy with the change - and especially with bringing the weapon groups dialog UI up to what the new standard/look and feel is - just had to happen at the right time!
e/ And just to immediately dispel any potential illusion that ...certain elements of the community will ever be satisfied and stop trying to make Starsector better: While you are working on it, how about a toggle in that UI to make a group fire directly when selected? That also comes up since, like, 2011^^"
Hah! That's actually a good bit more unclear. How does the AI handle it? If it just ignores it - which, after all, it can use alternating groups pretty well, so it doesn't really care - then it feels like it's breaking the rules as far as using a ship in a way the player couldn't. Also, how does this interact with linked/alternating? Sometimes you'd want all missiles to fire, sometimes one. But if it's alternating, you couldn't switch to another missile, so that's potentially awkward. (But, ok, that could only be a useful thing for mono-weapon-groups.) Still, you'd probably need "select-fire-linked" and "select-fire-alternating" modes. But then, how do you see how much ammo is left if you can't select the group? It's just a huge can of worms on a lot of fronts.
Having a separate bind to insta-fire a given group gets around these problems, though... but then the question is, what binds would be ergonomic? Pretty much everything around WASD is already taken, and you'd really want this to be super easy to access. Even if you, say, decide that only two groups - 1 and 2 - get "quick fire" binds, still not sure what that'd be. Something like Alt-<group number> is awkward enough that I think it defeats the purpose. Q or E I think would be ideal, feel-wise, but then strafe left/right would need to move somewhere...
-
Woah, this is akin to Story Points and Personal Contacts in significance.
-
Having a separate bind to insta-fire a given group gets around these problems, though... but then the question is, what binds would be ergonomic? Pretty much everything around WASD is already taken, and you'd really want this to be super easy to access. Even if you, say, decide that only two groups - 1 and 2 - get "quick fire" binds, still not sure what that'd be. Something like Alt-<group number> is awkward enough that I think it defeats the purpose. Q or E I think would be ideal, feel-wise, but then strafe left/right would need to move somewhere...
If you limit it to just two groups, then 8 and 9 keys could be used.
-
Whoa, a hotkey for auto-assigning weapon groups, too--sweet!
(On the topic of hotkeys - is there any possibility of adding some for adding/removing caps and vents (something like C and V while shifting the autofit hotkey to F would be soo nice)
-
Seven weapon groups in next release? Good news! :) I'll immediately start thinking about new loadouts for the larger player-controlled ships.
-
Also, how does this interact with linked/alternating? Sometimes you'd want all missiles to fire, sometimes one. But if it's alternating, you couldn't switch to another missile, so that's potentially awkward.
But then, how do you see how much ammo is left if you can't select the group?
Something like Alt-<group number> is awkward enough that I think it defeats the purpose
Not if you use its in reverse - hit Alt-<group number> to navigate within a direct fire group, and at the same time see group ammo and the range and firing arc of individual weapons. Hit only <group number> to fire the selected weapon in that group and switch to the next. That way you have the action that takes time to do on the key combo that takes time to press, and the fast action on the fast key.
(I was about to suggest the reverse behavior for non-directfire groups, but it's probably better to never fire anything while having alt pressed, otherwise there would be accidental discharges due to the group number next to a direct fire one being alt-pressed.)
Still, you'd probably need "select-fire-linked" and "select-fire-alternating" modes.
In so far as you can set it to those conditions with individual toggles, yeah. But I'd keep the linked /alternating toggle as it is and add a row under "start with autofire". Like this (ignore the typo pls):
(https://i.imgur.com/eXuEsyY.jpg)
How does the AI handle it? If it just ignores it - which, after all, it can use alternating groups pretty well, so it doesn't really care - then it feels like it's breaking the rules as far as using a ship in a way the player couldn't.
The AI can (apparently) already instantly fire weapon groups by switching really quick, so, if anything, I'd see this as leveling the playing field.
-
Nice for the extra weapon groups update. Outfitting Apogee and (especially) Onslaught will be less of a pain. I doubt I would use more than six, so I can at least use 7 as the "empty" group when I want to deselect all groups.
-
Not if you use its in reverse - hit Alt-<group number> to navigate within a direct fire group, and at the same time see group ammo and the range and firing arc of individual weapons. Hit only <group number> to fire the selected weapon in that group and switch to the next. That way you have the action that takes time to do on the key combo that takes time to press, and the fast action on the fast key.
Hmm... that does seem fairly workable overall; let me think on it!
The AI can (apparently) already instantly fire weapon groups by switching really quick, so, if anything, I'd see this as leveling the playing field.
IIRC it's not *that* fast with swap-firing-switching back - where it has the edge is in selecting the right weapon from an alternating group. So I think it might still need tweaking.
-
Please don't make AI weapon switching slower. If anything, I think it should be as instant as possible. The player gets pause mode to do all his switching if he cares to optimize. When I watch AI in the simulator, I see plenty of time wasted with switching weapon groups and leaving weapon groups off when they should not be. The problem has never been that AI shoots too much, if you know what I mean. ;)
Gothars, where do you see the AI doing this instantaneously? When I watch it, it's always pretty much human-level slow especially with turning groups on again after they were turned off.
-
I'm also heavily in favour of making AI weapon cycling INSTANT. There is a reason why I actually give most of my AI ships only two weapon groups (yes, even the ones with hardpoints&turrets) most of the time to make sure they always fire all their offensive weapons on (mostly) the same target and that the entirety of their PD batteries open up all at once.
Then there's also the issue of the AI not istantly switching target the moment the current one is obstructed. This is clearly visible when fighting a rotating enemy such as a battlestation, when a ship keeps aiming at a support mobule for many, many seconds while the battlestation has already rotated it out of sight.
This is a bit of a side note Alex, but you should consider modifying the AI behaviour even further if the ship does not have a shield. I am really pleased to see that the "shield-less AI" will keep a distance from enemies as to avoid damage in their demise, but it would also be really appreciated for the AI to not retreat as much as a "shielded AI" when its flux gets high, mostly because it can't overload and because ships without a shield usually carry more guns, meaning that the more it fires them the more it's going to be effective!
-
Argh, I might as well just add more groups! That UI would benefit from an overhaul, anyway.
https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/1323015744364388353
To clarify: it's the UI work, yeah (I'd say 75% of the work, because the old one totally breaks down if you add more groups, things just don't fit anymore), but also the number "5" being hardcoded for max weapon groups in an embarrassingly large number of places. I've done my best to scour through the codebase and change it (to 7, sigh), but if anything slipped through, you should probably blame Gothars.
(Edit: before anyone calls it out, I fixed the autofire checkboxes alignment issue :))
blegh, I kind of hate this move. HOTS just did the same thing recently when it added an ability to the game and bound it to the 6 key by default -- what I refer to as "binding to the doorknob". I put up with it in ARMA bc thats the game's basic draw, it being obnoxious, but the fact that SS only used the number keys that were convenient to reach was always a big plus to me in terms of the quality factor
-
You don't need to use the new weapon groups, and you can also make sure any weapons there are on auto fire. I don't see how this changes anything from the current game unless you want it to.
-
You don't need to use the new weapon groups, and you can also make sure any weapons there are on auto fire. I don't see how this changes anything from the current game unless you want it to.
taking control of AI ships, tho I guess that'd really just reinforce the feeling of jumping into the drivers seat of someone else's car. Like, okay I know we're in the middle of battle but hold up I gotta adjust the mirrors & steering column
-
But aren't PD weapons pretty much always in the last groups? Even if you didn't make the variant yourself, I don't think there'd be a manual fire strong weapon on group 6 or 7.
-
arent they? I remember being annoyed by jumping from my kite flagship into my onslaught wingman and being irritated at having its PD mixed in with its large slots, but that might be an old memory & a fixed issue. Honestly I'd prefer having a second row of weapon groups marked as "support weapons" (with the main group being "primary weapons") & you flip between the two by double-tapping a number, so you get twice as many weapon groups with the same number of keys and the ones on the new extension are explicitly in-game established as not being meant to be as easily used as the ones we already have, while still being far more convenient than having them bound to the door-knob -- I replayed Doom 2 recently & the guns that are bound to the same key like the different shotguns you cycle thru with the 3 key I used way more than I did the guns bound to the doorknob like the BFG bound to 7
-
If you don't either set up weapon groups, or press the auto-weapon group button, things can get really messed up (every weapon on one group type of stuff), maybe that's what you remember? But that wouldn't be made worse by the addition of extra weapon groups. I just manually set up weapon groups to my liking on every ship. I almost never manual fire more than 3 groups so those are the first few groups and everything else is on auto fire. I don't think I've ever pressed 5 in this game lol, I can't see myself pressing 6 or 7 either.
-
Please don't make AI weapon switching slower. If anything, I think it should be as instant as possible. The player gets pause mode to do all his switching if he cares to optimize. When I watch AI in the simulator, I see plenty of time wasted with switching weapon groups and leaving weapon groups off when they should not be. The problem has never been that AI shoots too much, if you know what I mean. ;)
Gothars, where do you see the AI doing this instantaneously? When I watch it, it's always pretty much human-level slow especially with turning groups on again after they were turned off.
(I was talking about exclusively making AI switching *faster*; apologies that this wasn't clear.)
-
I don't think I've ever pressed 5 in this game lol, I can't see myself pressing 6 or 7 either.
In my case, I press '5' to de-select all weapon groups, except Apogee and Onslaught that use all five, and I cannot press '6' to de-select all groups.
With seven groups, I will probably have use six for weapons on Onslaught (1 for left TPC, 2 for right TPC, 3 for missiles, 4 and/or 5 for non-PD, and 6 for flak. 7 will be empty group to de-select six groups when I want no group manually selected.