Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Deshara on October 08, 2020, 05:16:41 AM

Title: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Deshara on October 08, 2020, 05:16:41 AM
I've officially spent more time modding Bannerlord with QoL features it should have had than I have actually playing the game (https://ibb.co/GCt8N6h), and all I can think of as I do it is, "man, Starsector was really polished for being a 1-man show". The first time I went to attack a band of looters that I outrun and wound up chasing them clear from one side of the continent to the other bc there's no movement mechanics whatsoever beyond "run at a set speed & catch up to them in [speed difference / distance]" (with the speed differences possible being really small) I could feel my bones grinding together. Starsector, a game that went to public beta 3 years after the first Mount & Blade game came out, is infinitely more feature-complete iteration of this niche genre and I mmmmay have to refund it with the comment section of the refund request just being the word "starsector". This isn't in the off-topic board bc I count this as a weird compliment to Alex & Co. Good job Alex, SS is a great game & still holds up to the quality of brand new releases of 100+ dev studios
(You can't see it but that's only 1/3rd of the mod tabs I've got open, btw)
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Arcagnello on October 08, 2020, 05:25:07 AM
I've got to second this. It's not this game that should cost more than 15 euros (maybe in a few years I guess), it's every other single early access / open beta game that dares to charge more than what they offer.

A huge thank you to all the devs and modders that keep me playing this great space combat sim!
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Alex on October 08, 2020, 08:53:22 AM
(Ah, I appreciate the sentiment! But I just want to say, I always feel weird seeing a technically-compliment to Starsector that's putting another game down.)

I love M&B, btw. Haven't played Bannerlord yet - haven't had the time to really dive into it - but, every game has its quirks, and its dev focus (and blind spots), and so on. And there are different ways of approaching the EA model, too. I'm looking forward to finally getting a chance to sit down with it, though - I've spent more time with Warband than you want to know.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: shrek_luigi on October 08, 2020, 11:29:47 AM
people tell me that starsector is just mount and blade in space, but I tell them, that mount and blade is just starsector on the ground
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: SaberCherry on October 08, 2020, 02:16:00 PM
Bannerlord does have some amazing little bits of "unpolish".  It's the first game I ever played that does not let you remap keys before unbinding them first (IIRC, that was not a problem in the original).  And it has so many keys that you have to hunt and hunt to find what it was bound to before you can unbind it...  took a long, painful time to set up before I could start playing.

Starsector is impressive to me on the level that Dwarf Fortress, Dominions, Terraria, and Stardew Valley are impressive.  They all make me think - wow, 1/2 person(s) can accomplish this?  Then what am I doing with my life?  Unlike the other ones, though, Starsector actually has fantastic graphics.

That said, Mount and Blade is kind of special in that it is the only game I have ever played that did horseback riding OR archery well, regardless of the lack of polish in other areas.  Oh, and that's not even mentioning its face generation.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Morrokain on October 08, 2020, 02:37:51 PM
That said, Mount and Blade is kind of special in that it is the only game I have ever played that did horseback riding OR archery well, regardless of the lack of polish in other areas.

Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. But I agree that was a particularly good thing that M&B does very well. The satisfaction of swinging a massive two-handed sword to the side of your horse as you charge into the battle line cutting down enemies left and right only to emerge behind the enemy advance and crashing into his now undefended archers was a masterpiece of visceral fun. That small detail also gets a 10/10 from me.

As another solo "dev" trying to tackle a big project, I honestly don't know how Alex has time to play practically anything. I mean, I know I'm an amateur and all, but his output of internal code, API, and well designed systems makes me feel like a 2 year old stacking blocks - not that I mind haha.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: SaberCherry on October 08, 2020, 03:48:51 PM
That said, Mount and Blade is kind of special in that it is the only game I have ever played that did horseback riding OR archery well, regardless of the lack of polish in other areas.

Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. But I agree that was a particularly good thing that M&B does very well. The satisfaction of swinging a massive two-handed sword to the side of your horse as you charge into the battle line cutting down enemies left and right only to emerge behind the enemy advance and crashing into his now undefended archers was a masterpiece of visceral fun. That small detail also gets a 10/10 from me.

As another solo "dev" trying to tackle a big project, I honestly don't know how Alex has time to play practically anything. I mean, I know I'm an amateur and all, but his output of internal code, API, and well designed systems makes me feel like a 2 year old stacking blocks - not that I mind haha.
Come on - he has not released a release for 500 days.  Of course he plays games.  How else can you keep up with market research?  If you make it big and can never play games because you are too dedicated to what made you big, will you be happy and grow?  No!

There is nothing wrong with playing games; that's what we all aspire toward.  And its crucial when designing games.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Harmful Mechanic on October 08, 2020, 04:03:28 PM
If you don't take breaks, you burn completely out. It sounds cool to think about working 100-hour weeks on your game, but that's the route to hypertension and possible suicide, not a sustainable working schedule.

I don't begrudge our Benevolent Overlord breaks; they keep him sane(ish), and more productive over the long run. Leave the deathmarching to EA; and when was the last time you enjoyed one of their games without reservations?
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Morrokain on October 08, 2020, 04:39:46 PM
Oh for the love of.... if the perceived implication of my post was that Alex doesn't or shouldn't take breaks, that was not my intention! It's good that he does for all the reasons stated. I was complimenting his ability to manage his time regardless and create really good things...
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Daynen on October 08, 2020, 04:42:09 PM
Starsector is what happens when someone WANTS to make an awesome game, rather than being pressured into cranking out money.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: SaberCherry on October 08, 2020, 04:54:05 PM
Oh for the love of.... if the perceived implication of my post was that Alex doesn't or shouldn't take breaks, that was not my intention! It's good that he does for all the reasons stated. I was complimenting his ability to manage his time regardless and create really good things...
Relax, you were not the target of anyone's anathema.  This is just a gentle discourse on M&B-type-games.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Morrokain on October 08, 2020, 05:21:10 PM
Relax, you were not the target of anyone's anathema.  This is just a gentle discourse on M&B-type-games.

Ok sorry yeah probably just being overly defensive. Carry on!
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: SCC on October 09, 2020, 08:16:10 AM
Starsector is impressive to me on the level that Dwarf Fortress, Dominions, Terraria, and Stardew Valley are impressive.  They all make me think - wow, 1/2 person(s) can accomplish this?  Then what am I doing with my life?  Unlike the other ones, though, Starsector actually has fantastic graphics.
I wouldn't say Starsector has fantastic graphics, unless you mean in comparison to those titles (I also have a bias against retro pixel style). GraphicsLib does make it look mighty nice, though, props to DR.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Chaotic-Entropy on October 09, 2020, 08:42:00 AM
All the Mount and Blade games have always been a very rough and somewhat irritating collection of good ideas executed quite poorly. It used to be charming, but with Bannerlord they just don't have as many or as good reasons why things are so rough and shabby.

As ever, community creators will save them from themselves and that seems like the business model they want to follow.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: basileus on October 09, 2020, 10:39:35 AM
All the Mount and Blade games have always been a very rough and somewhat irritating collection of good ideas executed quite poorly. It used to be charming, but with Bannerlord they just don't have as many or as good reasons why things are so rough and shabby.

As ever, community creators will save them from themselves and that seems like the business model they want to follow.

Yeah, well.  That's still more understandable than all these triple-A titles with 9 figure budgets that spend 90% of it on art direction and marketing, and do their QA in production.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: SaberCherry on October 09, 2020, 10:50:37 AM
I wouldn't say Starsector has fantastic graphics, unless you mean in comparison to those titles (I also have a bias against retro pixel style). GraphicsLib does make it look mighty nice, though, props to DR.
Really?  I think the graphics are great.  Especially the stars.  I can't think of a top-down 2D game that I think has better graphics.  Although it is a little unfortunate (aesthetically) that when traveling your ships are represented by tiny dots.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Deshara on October 10, 2020, 12:32:35 AM
All the Mount and Blade games have always been very rough ... It used to be charming, but with Bannerlord they just don't have as many or as good reasons why things are so rough and shabby.

this reminds me of a customer satisfaction study I saw a few years back that concluded that one of the three major predictive factors of a dev studio being favorably viewed by its players over time, isn't how good a game is, because studios tend to be allowed to release janky or unpolished first games, but the perception that the studio's coding and polish is getting better. And that's the huge problem I have with the M&B series; this same game from 11 years ago had about the same level of polish, when the reason you buy the same game again 11 years later is so you can get a polished version of it.

Bannerlord feels more like a remake than a sequel. If Dark Souls 3 had had the same level of jank that demons souls & 1 had people would have forgotten about Fromsoft by now.

(I wish I could find this study lol)
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: DubTre6 on October 10, 2020, 05:13:03 AM
I haven't played Bannerlord, but it seems like they pushed it out the door too early, which is a shame. But big companies have bills to pay, so its understandable from a financial perspective, at least until you account for all the fans you tick off with a half-baked release.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Ryan390 on October 13, 2020, 09:20:07 AM
They totally did release too early, especially the day one launch, was horrifically buggy and un-optimized, even on decent PC rigs it ran extremely slow.

While no one expected a polished product such as what Cyberpunk will be, we still expected a level of playability, I actually requested a steam refund, which i've only done 1/2 times before, also had steam for about 15 years and own hundreds of games on it.
I fully support indie devs and smaller dev companies such as Tale Worlds, sunk thousands of hours into Warband and Viking Invasion, yet was utterly dismayed with the quality of launch of Banner Lord.

To their defence they did start patches on day one and have been good to respond to feedback, but a rushed release is a rushed release, especially when asking for the best part of £30, or whatever it was at the time.
Appreciate companies need a return on investment, but shouldn't be at the expense of a long term PC fanbase.

Look what Egosoft did with the X-games, X-Rebirth was a complete disaster initially, took years and years of patching for it to be playable but the damage was already done.
It's unacceptable in most areas of life when you buy products, why should it be acceptable in the games industry it's still a product / service.. 
 


Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: SaberCherry on October 13, 2020, 10:04:27 AM
I fully support indie devs and smaller dev companies such as Tale Worlds, sunk thousands of hours into Warband and Viking Invasion, yet was utterly dismayed with the quality of launch of Banner Lord.
When it was in development for 10 years, I really didn't understand how it could possibly be unfinished at release, but there you have it...

Another game to watch out for is Subnautica Below Zero.  I waited a year after it became available on Steam, then started, assuming maybe some of the end-game content was incomplete.  Then after a couple weeks (fortunately I had not played much), they invalidated save games by completely dumping the original start and storyline and who knows what else (and this is for a game with a lot of voice-work).  I don't recommend touching it until final release, "Very Positive" reviews notwithstanding.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on October 15, 2020, 04:52:08 AM
Another game to watch out for is Subnautica Below Zero.  I waited a year after it became available on Steam, then started, assuming maybe some of the end-game content was incomplete.  Then after a couple weeks (fortunately I had not played much), they invalidated save games by completely dumping the original start and storyline and who knows what else (and this is for a game with a lot of voice-work).  I don't recommend touching it until final release, "Very Positive" reviews notwithstanding.
TBH, the way Below Zero is shaping up, you would think that the game was the first in the series... It really shows the fact that they are shooting for a switch release with the much smaller (1/2 to 1/3) play area, slower everything, removed tools and greatly diminished feelings of loneliness and solitude like in the first game
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: SafariJohn on October 15, 2020, 07:26:49 AM
Sad to hear Below Zero is suffering development troubles.

Regarding map size, TBH Subnautica's map was too large with too many dead zones where it was never worth going. Starsector also suffers from pointless empty areas (star systems with no planets, for example), though some of that could be filled with new types of content.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Arcagnello on October 15, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
Sad to hear Below Zero is suffering development troubles.

Regarding map size, TBH Subnautica's map was too large with too many dead zones where it was never worth going. Starsector also suffers from pointless empty areas (star systems with no planets, for example), though some of that could be filled with new types of content.

I never got into playing Subnautica despite it being one if not the best exploration games of the decade.

One of the things that contributed to that was the developer's decision to cram it's own identity politics into it. For example, did you know that the only item in the game that is meant to hurt animals was and still  is the standard knife?

There is nothing else but an itty bitty butter knife in a game with 30 meter long translucent sea snakes that want to eat you because the company, under their own admission, is for animal rights and found it wrong to give you anything else to defend yourself with.

Not for story, not for immersion (pun intended) but simply to have their game reflect their personal agenda. I will not take away any of the game's stellar features but developing games this way overcomplicates the already arduous task of creating something people will play and have a blast with.

What's worse, you take away one person leading a developer team team this way and the whole project crumbles like a sand castle. It's exactly what happened to Subnautica Below Zero when the lead story developer quit/got fired and was replaced. They're re-doing the whole story over.


Aaaanyway,  back to Starsector, I personally think system variety is fine as it is now and for one basic reason: exploration is not about guarantees.

Would you still go fishing if you knew for certain that every time you threw your hook in the water, you'd catch a fish?

The same applies to solar systems. Having every map guaranteed to contain at least X takes away much of the thrill of exploration for me. You don't know what is out there, you don't even know if there IS something out there, therefore you keep searching.

Edit: Typos, they're coming out of the freaking text lines!
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Scorpixel on October 15, 2020, 09:32:26 AM
Sad to hear Below Zero is suffering development troubles.

Regarding map size, TBH Subnautica's map was too large with too many dead zones where it was never worth going. Starsector also suffers from pointless empty areas (star systems with no planets, for example), though some of that could be filled with new types of content.
Regarding Subnautica's map, it is true that a lot of zones are either uninteresting because of the lack of unique loot(beside decorative wildlife) or simply not worth the risk/travel. But i wouldn't say it was too large, in open worlds you either accept that not every square meter is equal, or you end-up adding a hundred same-ish tertiary quests/rewards that are more of a grind than actual exploration *cough* TESV/BOTW *cough*.

Most of the sector is procedural, there's bound to be both absolute gems and pitiful trash (if only we had a guaranteed stable point per system though, stranded stars and triple-habitable relay-less system are stressful)
Diversified features/reskins would be welcome in the final stages of the release/post-release for sure, as of yet many good mods are already filling that aspect so it's always possible to get new flavours of discovery.

I do wonder though if random logs/anomalies in a totally-not-Stellaris/Endless format could fit in without disturbing the game's pace and balance.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: SafariJohn on October 15, 2020, 09:52:04 AM
One of the things that contributed to that was the developer's decision to cram it's own identity politics into it. For example, did you know that the only item in the game that is meant to hurt animals was and still  is the standard knife?

There is nothing else but an itty bitty butter knife in a game with 30 meter long translucent sea snakes that want to eat you because the company, under their own admission, is for animal rights and found it wrong to give you anything else to defend yourself with.

Not for story, not for immersion (pun intended) but simply to have their game reflect their personal agenda. I will not take away any of the game's stellar features but developing games this way overcomplicates the already arduous task of creating something people will play and have a blast with.

I think it was an excellent design decision for creating the awesome "fear the deep" atmosphere Subnautica evokes, regardless of why they did it. Frankly, there were still plenty of ways to fight your way through the game, the Prawn suit being the prime example, so if they were really so against harming animals they did a pretty bad job of preventing it.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Arcagnello on October 15, 2020, 10:30:39 AM
One of the things that contributed to that was the developer's decision to cram it's own identity politics into it. For example, did you know that the only item in the game that is meant to hurt animals was and still  is the standard knife?

There is nothing else but an itty bitty butter knife in a game with 30 meter long translucent sea snakes that want to eat you because the company, under their own admission, is for animal rights and found it wrong to give you anything else to defend yourself with.

Not for story, not for immersion (pun intended) but simply to have their game reflect their personal agenda. I will not take away any of the game's stellar features but developing games this way overcomplicates the already arduous task of creating something people will play and have a blast with.

I think it was an excellent design decision for creating the awesome "fear the deep" atmosphere Subnautica evokes, regardless of why they did it. Frankly, there were still plenty of ways to fight your way through the game, the Prawn suit being the prime example, so if they were really so against harming animals they did a pretty bad job of preventing it.

Well, you can kill every leviathan with the stun rifle and the knife as it is so yeah. Their attempt failed miserably. As for "fearing the deep", you could've just made leviathans tankier and/or immune to the butter knife.

Never try telling people they can't do something in a game, it's never going to work.

I personally would recommend any developer to know the hilariously preventable tale of when PETA opened a Minecraft server. I will probably never experience such joy in vandalizing virtual space as I did back then.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: intrinsic_parity on October 15, 2020, 10:49:35 AM
There's a million things you can't do in games... The whole point of a game (IMO) is to find a winning course of action within the constraints presented by the game mechanics. As long as the challenge of winning the game is interesting within the context of the mechanics, I don't see any reason why the ability to kill animals is required for a game to be good. I also don't think it makes a game bad, it's just another mechanic that can be included or not included, and has no bearing on the quality of the game.

Tbh, I think games with more constraints on player actions are often more fun because they end up being more challenging. If there is no reason to do things in a game and you just do whatever you want, I find it somewhat boring usually, unless the gameplay itself is super engaging.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Scorpixel on October 15, 2020, 02:20:42 PM
There's a million things you can't do in games... The whole point of a game (IMO) is to find a winning course of action within the constraints presented by the game mechanics. As long as the challenge of winning the game is interesting within the context of the mechanics, I don't see any reason why the ability to kill animals is required for a game to be good. I also don't think it makes a game bad, it's just another mechanic that can be included or not included, and has no bearing on the quality of the game.

Tbh, I think games with more constraints on player actions are often more fun because they end up being more challenging. If there is no reason to do things in a game and you just do whatever you want, I find it somewhat boring usually, unless the gameplay itself is super engaging.
Thank you, the game would've never been as immersive and frightening if we weren't in a position of weakness, and it's only perceived weakness as we can easily perma-freeze any enemy and slice it to death.
A weapon reassure the player in any game with enemies, case in point being Alien Isolation when you first get your hands on the flamethrower.

Thalassophobia and fear of the dark/unknown do most of the work, the sparse reef can be orders of magnitude scarier than the lost river just because of the environment, not knowing what could come for you but thinking you have no chance if it does.
But that's coming from someone who can't play Minecraft or Starsector at night, the intensity of irrational fears do vary between people.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Arcagnello on October 15, 2020, 02:38:41 PM
There's a million things you can't do in games... The whole point of a game (IMO) is to find a winning course of action within the constraints presented by the game mechanics. As long as the challenge of winning the game is interesting within the context of the mechanics, I don't see any reason why the ability to kill animals is required for a game to be good. I also don't think it makes a game bad, it's just another mechanic that can be included or not included, and has no bearing on the quality of the game.

Tbh, I think games with more constraints on player actions are often more fun because they end up being more challenging. If there is no reason to do things in a game and you just do whatever you want, I find it somewhat boring usually, unless the gameplay itself is super engaging.
Thank you, the game would've never been as immersive and frightening if we weren't in a position of weakness, and it's only perceived weakness as we can easily perma-freeze any enemy and slice it to death.
A weapon reassure the player in any game with enemies, case in point being Alien Isolation when you first get your hands on the flamethrower.

Thalassophobia and fear of the dark/unknown do most of the work, the sparse reef can be orders of magnitude scarier than the lost river just because of the environment, not knowing what could come for you but thinking you have no chance if it does.
But that's coming from someone who can't play Minecraft or Starsector at night, the intensity of irrational fears do vary between people.

You know what's worse than forced positions of weakness?

Having a weapon given to you, providing safety, only to find out it barely does anything and is basically a facade of your own hubris. It's a lot more sophisiticated than "hah, you only get this knife, now go out there!".

This exact same thing happens in Alien:Isolation by the way. You get the flamethrower and think it's just going to solve all your issues only to find out that the more you have to use it the more the alien will progressively ignore it up to the point when you may aswell not use it. It's (IMO) a lot more sphisticated and sadistic than just denying you even a false hope of things working out.

Actually, let me just give up one of the best scenes from Fate:Zero where the audience is introduced to "Bluebeard" and the concept of pure despair. (Start at 2:30 or even 3:25 if you're short on time, it loses much of the buildup and context tough). Just beware that it's not for sensible audiences despite being...well...anime and the stereotypes that come with it, namely the "cartoons are for kids" one.

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdxtZ6UxYVo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdxtZ6UxYVo)
[close]

Edit: Okay. Let me actually quote the relevant thing "Bluebeard" says that fits into the point I'm making:

Some forms of terror are fresher than others.
The more intense the fear, the more the emotions die.
Terror, in its truest sense, is not a static state, but a dynamic one.
It is the moment when hope turns into despair.
Did you enjoy that?
The taste of fresh terror and death?

Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Scorpixel on October 15, 2020, 05:40:35 PM
There's a million things you can't do in games... The whole point of a game (IMO) is to find a winning course of action within the constraints presented by the game mechanics. As long as the challenge of winning the game is interesting within the context of the mechanics, I don't see any reason why the ability to kill animals is required for a game to be good. I also don't think it makes a game bad, it's just another mechanic that can be included or not included, and has no bearing on the quality of the game.

Tbh, I think games with more constraints on player actions are often more fun because they end up being more challenging. If there is no reason to do things in a game and you just do whatever you want, I find it somewhat boring usually, unless the gameplay itself is super engaging.
Thank you, the game would've never been as immersive and frightening if we weren't in a position of weakness, and it's only perceived weakness as we can easily perma-freeze any enemy and slice it to death.
A weapon reassure the player in any game with enemies, case in point being Alien Isolation when you first get your hands on the flamethrower.

Thalassophobia and fear of the dark/unknown do most of the work, the sparse reef can be orders of magnitude scarier than the lost river just because of the environment, not knowing what could come for you but thinking you have no chance if it does.
But that's coming from someone who can't play Minecraft or Starsector at night, the intensity of irrational fears do vary between people.

You know what's worse than forced positions of weakness?

Having a weapon given to you, providing safety, only to find out it barely does anything and is basically a facade of your own hubris. It's a lot more sophisiticated than "hah, you only get this knife, now go out there!".

This exact same thing happens in Alien:Isolation by the way. You get the flamethrower and think it's just going to solve all your issues only to find out that the more you have to use it the more the alien will progressively ignore it up to the point when you may aswell not use it. It's (IMO) a lot more sphisticated and sadistic than just denying you even a false hope of things working out.

Actually, let me just give up one of the best scenes from Fate:Zero where the audience is introduced to "Bluebeard" and the concept of pure despair. (Start at 2:30 or even 3:25 if you're short on time, it loses much of the buildup and context tough). Just beware that it's not for sensible audiences despite being...well...anime and the stereotypes that come with it, namely the "cartoons are for kids" one.

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdxtZ6UxYVo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdxtZ6UxYVo)
[close]

Edit: Okay. Let me actually quote the relevant thing "Bluebeard" says that fits into the point I'm making:

Some forms of terror are fresher than others.
The more intense the fear, the more the emotions die.
Terror, in its truest sense, is not a static state, but a dynamic one.
It is the moment when hope turns into despair.
Did you enjoy that?
The taste of fresh terror and death?
It seem we've seen the same string of videos talking about the subject in question, indeed terror is a more appropriate term, or even dread in some cases. I do know about Fate and was told that Zero is the most depressing part(had to go through VPN for that link though, blocked in some places).

Glad to see that we are in agreement, cheap horror and jumpscares are only worth reaction videos, creating the environment to place the mind in primal alert is where the work is, followed by luring the player into a false sense of security in order to plunge again.
I will admit that it is where Subnautica fails, as you only grow in confidence over time. True fear disappear in the lost river, nothing is out of sight, everything is well lit 24/7, and the only actual danger is running circles in front of you.

I do wonder what is your opinion on dread, such as "A quiet place" that decided hiding the monster until the last 15 minutes wasn't the point of the movie.
Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Ryan390 on October 17, 2020, 09:11:01 AM
All this talk of Subnautica yet I found it incredibly boring (and a slow fps on the xbox) My son was playing it and I struggled to watch just endless swimming around pulling out weeds from the sea bed.

If you want a feeling of deep sea dread play X-com - Terror from the Deep or Bioshock ;)

It seems to be a genre that still sells really well, personally I'm more than sick of the survival crafting genre it's way way, waaaay over done, 90% of the games released are survival crafting games on steam..
The sheer amount of choice is overwhelming, yet really they all share pretty much the same concepts..

Title: Re: Starsector has ruined Mount & Blade games for me
Post by: Arcagnello on October 17, 2020, 05:53:34 PM
There's a million things you can't do in games... The whole point of a game (IMO) is to find a winning course of action within the constraints presented by the game mechanics. As long as the challenge of winning the game is interesting within the context of the mechanics, I don't see any reason why the ability to kill animals is required for a game to be good. I also don't think it makes a game bad, it's just another mechanic that can be included or not included, and has no bearing on the quality of the game.

Tbh, I think games with more constraints on player actions are often more fun because they end up being more challenging. If there is no reason to do things in a game and you just do whatever you want, I find it somewhat boring usually, unless the gameplay itself is super engaging.
Thank you, the game would've never been as immersive and frightening if we weren't in a position of weakness, and it's only perceived weakness as we can easily perma-freeze any enemy and slice it to death.
A weapon reassure the player in any game with enemies, case in point being Alien Isolation when you first get your hands on the flamethrower.

Thalassophobia and fear of the dark/unknown do most of the work, the sparse reef can be orders of magnitude scarier than the lost river just because of the environment, not knowing what could come for you but thinking you have no chance if it does.
But that's coming from someone who can't play Minecraft or Starsector at night, the intensity of irrational fears do vary between people.

You know what's worse than forced positions of weakness?

Having a weapon given to you, providing safety, only to find out it barely does anything and is basically a facade of your own hubris. It's a lot more sophisiticated than "hah, you only get this knife, now go out there!".

This exact same thing happens in Alien:Isolation by the way. You get the flamethrower and think it's just going to solve all your issues only to find out that the more you have to use it the more the alien will progressively ignore it up to the point when you may aswell not use it. It's (IMO) a lot more sphisticated and sadistic than just denying you even a false hope of things working out.

Actually, let me just give up one of the best scenes from Fate:Zero where the audience is introduced to "Bluebeard" and the concept of pure despair. (Start at 2:30 or even 3:25 if you're short on time, it loses much of the buildup and context tough). Just beware that it's not for sensible audiences despite being...well...anime and the stereotypes that come with it, namely the "cartoons are for kids" one.

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdxtZ6UxYVo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdxtZ6UxYVo)
[close]

Edit: Okay. Let me actually quote the relevant thing "Bluebeard" says that fits into the point I'm making:

Some forms of terror are fresher than others.
The more intense the fear, the more the emotions die.
Terror, in its truest sense, is not a static state, but a dynamic one.
It is the moment when hope turns into despair.
Did you enjoy that?
The taste of fresh terror and death?
It seem we've seen the same string of videos talking about the subject in question, indeed terror is a more appropriate term, or even dread in some cases. I do know about Fate and was told that Zero is the most depressing part(had to go through VPN for that link though, blocked in some places).

Glad to see that we are in agreement, cheap horror and jumpscares are only worth reaction videos, creating the environment to place the mind in primal alert is where the work is, followed by luring the player into a false sense of security in order to plunge again.
I will admit that it is where Subnautica fails, as you only grow in confidence over time. True fear disappear in the lost river, nothing is out of sight, everything is well lit 24/7, and the only actual danger is running circles in front of you.

I do wonder what is your opinion on dread, such as "A quiet place" that decided hiding the monster until the last 15 minutes wasn't the point of the movie.

A Quiet Place felt more like a movie exploring a very interesting world than a horror. Sure it was built around murder aliens immune to most weapons but the dynamics they introduced were far more interesting than the monsters themselves. I'm eager to go watch the prequel whenever it comes out.

Going off on a tangent, my two favourite horror movies are Alien and The Thing. They're both almost twice the years I'm old back in time but there are very, very few movies topping those.
You'll probably not believe me but I actually liked both Prometheus and Covenant up to a degree, and the new The Thing movie had some amazing half practical half CGI moments.

I really wish they could properly reintroduce both franchises.