Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: JohnVicres on June 25, 2020, 06:46:58 PM

Title: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: JohnVicres on June 25, 2020, 06:46:58 PM
I am not using any mods that change weapons, so I dunno about that, but how the hell is the tracking mechanism for the squalls activated? For me they seem 100% dumb-fire, aside from some engagements where they seemed to track fighters, of all things. Also, the tracking description says "special", for a cherry top on my confusion. What gives?
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Mondaymonkey on June 25, 2020, 07:24:00 PM
Phase 1: Just after missile leave a rack it has slow speed, but excellent leading, resulting accurate rotation to the target regardless of initial fire direction. Short phase, to be said.

Phase 2: Dumbfire acceleration in this direction. can be inaccurate for fast targets. "Missile specialization" skill and ECCM hullmod gives it better speed and acceleration, resulting a slightly better accuracy. Still it is mostly "anti-cap shields suppression" weapon.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: JohnVicres on June 25, 2020, 08:00:48 PM
aaaaaahhh now I get it
I was using them in a Gryphon, so there were very little missile "maneuvers" from launch to full activation. Their tracking description should be changed, honestly... semi-tracking or smth
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Eji1700 on June 25, 2020, 09:42:10 PM
aaaaaahhh now I get it
I was using them in a Gryphon, so there were very little missile "maneuvers" from launch to full activation. Their tracking description should be changed, honestly... semi-tracking or smth

Yeah you don't need to look at the target at all to have squalls hit them.  You can fire completely perpendicular and they'll reorient and smash into them.   Assuming they can't actually maneuver anyways.  The pressure they put out, especially in mass, can be brutal though.  They aren't killing anything without some sort of support though.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Thaago on June 26, 2020, 08:26:22 AM
In terms of targeting: Like other missiles, they will fire at your selected target. If you don't have a selected target, they will fire at the enemy closest to the mouse at time of firing.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: wei270 on July 19, 2020, 01:46:59 AM
and don't use Gryphons, at the moment they are consider some of the worst ships in the game.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Grievous69 on July 19, 2020, 01:52:56 AM
and don't use Gryphons, at the moment they are consider some of the worst ships in the game.
Actually I wouldn't exactly call them bad. They're just heavily outshined by Falcon(P) which is also cheaper and faster. Otherwise they're completely fine, maybe a bit too squishy tho.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Scorpixel on July 19, 2020, 02:12:25 AM
and don't use Gryphons, at the moment they are consider some of the worst ships in the game.
Actually I wouldn't exactly call them bad. They're just heavily outshined by Falcon(P) which is also cheaper and faster. Otherwise they're completely fine, maybe a bit too squishy tho.

They have a lot of kinetic hardpoints that they can hardly make use of due to their horrendous base dissipation of 200, the Heron with less DP, better shields/flux and faster movement is superior in that regard.
Add to this that bombers are basically unlimited missiles versus the one-use missile forge and the ship really struggle to be more than a cruiser sized gimmick for blasting specific targets.

I still love the design and try to use it, however it will either stay irrelevant in the back or struggle to even stay alive on the front.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Yunru on July 19, 2020, 02:21:59 AM
Irrelevant? They can solo an Onslaught! :P
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Igncom1 on July 19, 2020, 02:25:42 AM
I don't agree personally.

The Gryphon isn't all that good, but it's hardly a waste of space and frankly what does a missile boat need flux for? Missiles are flux free and can be some of the deadliest weapons in the game.

If anything the Falcon P is just weirdly 'overpowered' with free built in mods and hybrid weapon mounts.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Scorpixel on July 19, 2020, 03:38:28 AM
Yes they can destroy way bigger targets when player controlled, so can an afflictor slaughter entire fleets, destroying more DP than you're worth is a daily feat for any respectable ship in the player's hands.

As for a missile platform, it's good at it but that's it, it won't tank anything, won't have impressive pd, is the slowest midline, and the AI can't use the forge properly.
Next to it we have the Eagle with massive staying power and a statline to drool over, and the untouchable Heron with triple enhanced fighter bay along hybrid slots that it has the flux to use despite being a carrier.

The Gryphon is still in the shadow of other ships of the same calibre, without even counting the special case of Falcon(P), and the upcoming patch with AI aggressiveness improvements may prove lethal to it's already feeble statline.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Igncom1 on July 19, 2020, 03:50:22 AM
I mean I feel like you are comparing it to the roles of other midline ships, which are all specialists, and are calling it terrible because of it.

It's not supposed to be a tanky gunboat, because that's the Eagle, nor a Fast Carrier like the Heron, Nor a fast cruiser like the Falcon.

It's job is to bring a large missile mount to bare, along with a reload ability (of which the AI sucks at using any ability in the game) and that's that really. Not that it couldn't use a buff but the reason it got nerfed in the first place was it's ability to be a cruiser that could kill capital ship fleets, on it's own.

Think of it as a bigger vigilance, or missile based sunder or hammerhead, and it comes out all right.

Not a great ship, but a specialised tool to be used for one purpose (bringing missile mounts).
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Scorpixel on July 19, 2020, 05:18:25 AM
I do get that it's primary role is as a missile platform, it's also my favourite ship design (neither looks like junk held together by tape, nor a modern art project) and always have one in my fleet as it's great to have a squall in order to split the enemy fleet in half.

It is most certainly over blowing it to say it's irrelevant, however every midline specialist get some flexibility, as all of them dispose of at least some missile and/or hybrid mounts along their main strength, along respectable stats everywhere.

Looking at DP cost it is supposed to be the next best thing after a Conquest, along the Eagle, yet we have to compare it to destroyers and it's still falling short everywhere but in the large missile mount, the only non-capital one, the only vanilla missile ship that is not a frigate.

The Gryphon is unique, if you want that mount you either get him or skip to the endgame, so it's important for it to not be too strong, the issue being that every other midline ship is above average in the charts, the only balanced ship within a well-performing family.

It's a flying large missile slot above all else, at over half the DP of capitals that get two of them along entire arsenals and far superior stats.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Megas on July 19, 2020, 07:24:30 AM
Squalls stink.  Terrible tracking and not enough ammo.

Gryphon is a carrier wannabe (bad mobility and defenses) that uses warship AI.  Result is not pretty if given to AI.  Get a real carrier if you want a missileship, because fighters are effectively missiles by another name, and AI in a carrier will back off from enemies.

I am waiting for the classic Aurora (with large missile and high-energy focus), which will be reborn as a new midline ship, to return.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Yunru on July 19, 2020, 08:29:32 AM
Typically I find the Gryphon sadly better leaving the large missile slot empty XD
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Grievous69 on July 19, 2020, 08:33:02 AM
Typically I find the Gryphon sadly better leaving the large missile slot empty XD
I threw up in my mouth a bit after reading this.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Thaago on July 19, 2020, 08:37:06 AM
In the most recent tournament Gryphons did very well, possibly one of the strongest ships available for their cost, though that format favors missiles because it allowed for (partial) reloads between waves. In campaign missiles are much better than people give them credit for, but not as good as in tournament settings with more numerical parity.

The ship ranges from medium-bad to good in campaign, depending on their build and the fleet that they are part of. The AI does well with a well built Gryphon, and poorly with a badly built one, just like any other ship. Falcon (P)'s outclass them because they are tanky and fast and can "brawl" with their missiles, but in terms of the amount of missiles brought to the field Gryphons are better per ship and per cost.

Missiles are not the same thing as fighters. I don't feel the need to re-litigate this again, but its just obviously not true and its horrible advice to give to someone to treat them the same.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Igncom1 on July 19, 2020, 08:45:14 AM
Bombers are essentially superior missile platforms. But not fighters/interceptors as they usually use guns and so are more like corvettes of a sort.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Yunru on July 19, 2020, 08:50:12 AM
I threw up in my mouth a bit after reading this.
I splash out the equivalent of Safety Overrides for Missile Autoforge (Hullmod), without the large, I can load up the mediums with finishers and the smalls with Sabots.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: SonnaBanana on July 19, 2020, 09:02:54 AM
In your opinion, what can be done to make Squalls better?
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Yunru on July 19, 2020, 09:05:29 AM
Give them Tie-Fighter sounds.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: TaLaR on July 19, 2020, 09:11:06 AM
Squalls already do 2 things rather well though:
- Defensive stalling as demonstrated by sim Astral.
- Beating a slower ship into submission. AI Conquest with Squalls can solo any build of Paragon in skill-less sim duel (or any other vanilla capital, except overpowered Radiant and Guardian).

Problem is, AI simply spams Squalls as long as there is anything to shoot at, without any sort of planning or target prioritization. So in fleet setting Squalls are almost guaranteed to be uselessly wasted. Same problem with Annihilators and Hammers.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Thaago on July 19, 2020, 09:20:12 AM
To add to TaLaR's point: Squalls are great at driving up the flux of targets they can hit. Unfortunately that is only capitals and slow cruisers. Any shots fired at nimble cruisers or below simply forces an easy dodge: not totally useless and it can disrupt the enemy, but not worth a large missile slot or the OP. Squalls that could reliably hit small ships would be excessively deadly, so I don't think they should have tracking good enough to hit frigates, but they could use a moderate tracking boost and really need an AI tweak to not fire at destroyers or frigates except in "panic fire" mode.

Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Grievous69 on July 19, 2020, 09:25:43 AM
I just wish for them to have more ammo, it would make it less painful putting them on AI ships. In return maybe reduce the salvo size, or just increase the refire delay idk. Currenly it runs before doing anything meaningful (which a large missile should do).
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: intrinsic_parity on July 19, 2020, 11:23:34 AM
Bombers are essentially superior missile platforms.

Bomber would be like missiles that fire off randomly but have infinite ammo. Proper missiles can be withheld until there is a good opportunity to do damage. There's definitely some questions about how the AI actually uses missiles, and also possibly ways the player can manage bomber timings with recall/engage, but bombers just have nowhere near the same level of control or impact that proper missiles have. They trade that for sustained damage in long fights. Two different things.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Igncom1 on July 19, 2020, 11:32:31 AM
You can control bombers, no? When they are sent out to attack? (I literally don't know as I never pilot.)

So you don't have fine level of control, no, but you do have some.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Megas on July 19, 2020, 11:43:31 AM
I consider most fighters too similar to missiles.  Bombers are obvious, but even interceptors like Talons feel too similar to missiles for my tastes, even if they do not suicidally ram enemy ships or explode for big damage like a Reaper.  This is something I probably will never see eye-to-eye with the likes of Thaago.  The only fighters that do not behave like missiles are the escort-only ones, namely mining pods and Xyphos (and Terminator drones on Tempest); those feel more like Gradius options or Chmmr Zapsats.  Carriers behave like a missile ship should (by avoiding enemies).  Of course, carriers cowering like they should burns AI Legion built to brawl like an Onslaught.

Every time I tried various loadouts with Gryphon in serious late-game battles, it was always the first to die.  (I give long-range missile loadouts, and it, with Steady AI, still manages to approach enemies thinking it is a tanky warship and get itself killed.)  I probably need to dedicate a Cautious officer with missile skills and no carrier skills - yuck!  I do not like to build officers that are only good for a single ship type, especially if I do not bring ten officers.  The only time Gryphon was mildly useful to me was when I loot one early around the start of midgame (while I still use clunkers I loot from pirates) when it was outfitted like a bigger Enforcer (with Hammer Barrage instead of Annihilators) to be cheap and disposable, where dying would not be a problem (because I would just recover it and re-use it with cheap stuff until I no longer need it).
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Thaago on July 19, 2020, 01:41:33 PM
You can control bombers, no? When they are sent out to attack? (I literally don't know as I never pilot.)

So you don't have fine level of control, no, but you do have some.

Somewhat, yes. Bombers hanging back behind the ship in recall mode will still fire off their payloads at opportunity targets more or less at random (its quite nice with Longbows, because they then rearm very quickly, while also acting as extra side point defense. For battle carriers, a wing that is identical to the Longbow but was locked to the parent ships so the AI couldn't set it to engage would be better than the normal one). In terms of AI control, we can set strike orders which will (partially) coordinate fighters to hit a target, but this does not synchronize timing. There is no AI awareness, AFAIK, for bombers to prioritize firing at overloaded or even high flux targets.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Goumindong on July 19, 2020, 02:20:28 PM
and don't use Gryphons, at the moment they are consider some of the worst ships in the game.
gryphons are great

They’re different than falcon P but theyre still really good.

As an example in my most recent game where I ran mainly onslaughts my backups were

Mods and Gryphon.

And the AI gryphon did as much ship damage as the AI onslaughts and twice as much as the Mora on average 
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Null Ganymede on July 19, 2020, 09:50:53 PM
Gyphon flagships are broken in experienced player hands.

The joy of this game is most ships have been called "worst" by people who haven't discovered their niches yet.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: TaLaR on July 19, 2020, 10:00:07 PM
Gyphon flagships are broken in experienced player hands.

Usable, but that's about it. Decent dueling potential, but still easy to surround and overwhelm, because it's slow and has no real defenses beside missiles.
Sabots also simply don't work against a Paragon, Fortress Shield is perfect counter.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Megas on July 20, 2020, 05:11:03 AM
Gryphon, as a playership, was at its best when was first introduced, when its system drained CR, and when it could solo fleets.  Then again at the time, Aurora had large missile and was a better Gryphon without the nanoforge.

I agree with TaLaR.  I would use other ships if I want to spam missiles (or fighters).
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Igncom1 on July 20, 2020, 05:17:47 AM
To the weapon it's self it is an odd one, but I kinda like it as a kind of anti-capital missile system.

It's second stage in my opinion, could use some minor tracking ability to home in, but otherwise it's a step above torpedoes with it's first phase while still being below other missile systems in their ability to track smaller targets.

Not that I would be opposed to a fully tracking second stage missile for full Macross Missile Massacres.

But I'm not a staunch balance kinda guy if you've read my posts, I am fairly easily to please so perhaps I am not as concerned with it's performance as I should be? Seems fine enough.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Harmful Mechanic on July 20, 2020, 08:51:39 AM
Squalls do improve their handiness a bit with a higher terminal velocity - up around 1000-1200 and with slightly reduced HP - so that's a potential fix for it. Another way to make 2-stage dumbfire projectiles more useful is to give them a bit more scatter out of the launcher, so they blanket an area rather than arriving in a narrow stream.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: DatonKallandor on July 20, 2020, 11:05:15 AM
I've yet to see a Squall underperform in practice. They're great.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Null Ganymede on July 20, 2020, 07:29:34 PM
I agree with TaLaR.  I would use other ships if I want to spam missiles (or fighters).

It's not about spamming missiles, it's about building a strong fleet that can plow through flanks and escorts but doesn't need to worry about cracking a capital front line. Then using the Gryphon to delete key ships in the enemy front line so the rest of your fleet can do its thing.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Megas on July 21, 2020, 05:37:59 AM
I agree with TaLaR.  I would use other ships if I want to spam missiles (or fighters).

It's not about spamming missiles, it's about building a strong fleet that can plow through flanks and escorts but doesn't need to worry about cracking a capital front line. Then using the Gryphon to delete key ships in the enemy front line so the rest of your fleet can do its thing.
That is what (chained) Afflictor is for.  As a flagship, cheaper and more reliable.  Afflictor is so unfair, almost as much as Harbinger was last release.

As an AI ship, Gryphon (with Steady AI) stupidly approaches the enemy with the rest of my warships and becomes the first casualty every time.  If it hung back with the carriers and lobbed missiles, it would be better.  I do not want to dedicate a Cautious or Timid officer with warship only skills solely to patch AI problems for a single ship type.  The only possible exception to that is if I get one early (by looting one from expedition or named bounty) and treat it like an extra large (disposable) Enforcer.

Piloting Gryphon is annoying.  If it is not using Hammer Barrage or Cyclone Reaper, I rather pilot Apogee (or Conquest) with Expanded Missile Racks.

P.S.  I cannot let AI Gryphons do as they please.  I need to micromanage them so they do not wander to the front line on their own and let the enemy kill them.  (I can generally let conventional warships do as they please because they have the stats to brawl at the front line.)  I also do not want to pilot Gryphon if I have a better ship to pilot.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Null Ganymede on July 22, 2020, 04:44:08 AM
Then on deployment, give them an escort order on a destroyer-sized carrier or a slow capital. You can give multiple orders for a single command point, so just deploy in formation and assign escort/attack orders to get stuff to do what you want it to.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Megas on July 22, 2020, 05:24:32 AM
So I need to waste a CP every fight to make them behave, during times when I let the rest of my fleet do whatever they want?  Also, that means I must deploy a carrier or civilian.  I do not always deploy carriers.  Capitals will be at the front line, where ships need to brawl.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Igncom1 on July 22, 2020, 08:14:57 AM
I almost never let my fleet off the leach unless I know I have the advantage.

Simply setting up a 'battle line' across the map seems to be superior to letting ships run amok across the battlefield. Often to be picked off by frigate swarms (this does happen occasionally anyway, but that's just how it be some times.)

Together ships can try to rely on each other. So I almost always use up all of my CP in a battle on various way points and orders.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Megas on July 22, 2020, 08:53:35 AM
Quote
I almost never let my fleet off the leach unless I know I have the advantage.
That is plenty of fights, especially by endgame.

I use orders when I need to, especially in multi-round combats and any combat with Radiants or phase ships.

Want I do not want is automatic and routine CP sinks in every fight, like spending two to four CP on relay points in every battle in previous releases.  It feels like jumping through mandatory hoops before I get to the combat.

At least fights against AI (i.e., Ordos) have no objectives at all.  All fights should be like that.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Null Ganymede on July 22, 2020, 08:37:21 PM
You're missing out on a bunch of tactics made viable by controlling the AI.

Fire support roles like the MRM/LRM Gryphon are just the most obvious.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Flet on July 23, 2020, 11:24:32 AM
There should be a way to set default escort assignments. Also the ability to set certain missile type priorities, so your fleet can be told to only use missiles against certain targets, specifiable to the missile type so you can say use some missiles against smaller ships, some missiles only against larger ships, etc.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Igncom1 on July 23, 2020, 12:05:26 PM
I've seen people do a weird pattern formation with their drovers before, but I do wonder what over kinds of tactics might be possible in battle?

I've never really had much of an advantage with a flanking attack as my flanking destroyers were never quite aggressive enough for my liking unless ordered to execute specific targets, and even then. (Maybe I'll have to start up a tactics thread soon.)
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Megas on July 23, 2020, 12:48:01 PM
Fire support roles like the MRM/LRM Gryphon are just the most obvious.
Which get sunk by AI that wants to brawl at the frontline unless I take extra special steps to prevent that (or do not care if it dies).  Steps I do not need to take with most other conventional ships in most fights.  Combined with destroyer-level stats, not worth the extra effort just for maybe double missile capacity (assuming AI does not waste the system).  It is okay as a flagship, but there are better ships to pilot.

For similar reasons, I usually avoid fighting phase stack fleets (i.e., pass over the TT deserter with several Dooms and the like for another available bounty with a bunch of Onslaughts, Conquests, or Atlas IIs depending on who owns the fleet instead) because I need to micromanage every AI ship to avoid casualties, not just Gryphon.  Phase fleets are a pain to fight.

It seems Gryphon with default AI is best used in zombie industrial fleet where death is cheap.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Thaago on July 23, 2020, 01:36:08 PM
When I used Gryphons they didn't tend to suicide, or at least I don't remember them doing so. I also don't remember needing any really special builds to make them worthwhile - I just slapped on a whole pile of Harpoons and a Locust for anti fighter/frigate. This was mid/early game I think? Or maybe I hadn't come to appreciate Hurricane's yet? Either way, the ship worked well enough. It wasn't a star performer, but it did consistent damage.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Null Ganymede on July 24, 2020, 06:12:04 PM
I've seen people do a weird pattern formation with their drovers before, but I do wonder what over kinds of tactics might be possible in battle?

Cruiser and capital hammer, frigate and destroyer anvil. (Yes, that's the correct order.) The trick is to assign frigate escorts to your destroyer or elite frigate escort, then flank hard. Enemy fleets focus on your flagship excessively, so just getting behind them turns a bunch of big ships around and lets your main fleet free fire. The frigate escort makes space for you to do it and protects your flank from other frigates.

Otherwise there's a ton of awesome fire support ships that are too fragile on their own, but work amazing as a combat carrier/slow capital escort. Ditto for reckless officers you don't have a good wrecking ball ship with - just put 'em on escort duty around something big or slow.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Warhydra on September 28, 2020, 11:46:00 PM
Gryphons are pretty good, the winning fleet in the last AI tournement had quite a few of them.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Serenitis on September 29, 2020, 01:41:35 AM
Squalls are mostly fine. They could just use either better terminal tracking, or as mentioned, a scattering fire pattern.
As they are, even a capital ship can slide laterally and avoid every single shot in a volley if it drops (or angles) its shield.

Gryphon is an oddball.
It's a missile platform, and as such should be as close to the front as possible to ensure its missiles can make contact with thier targets. (This goes double for unguided weapons.)
Except it doesn't have the mobility to evade threats.
It doesn't have the mobility to get into and out of position quickly enough to "hit and run".
And it doesn't have the flux stats or armour to tank damage.
The only way to give it halfway acceptable mobilty is to use SO + UI, which is expensive. And undermines the ship system, which is about increased deployment time.
It's a ship that emphatically needs to be on the front line to use its weapons effectively, but is entirely incapable of existing there for any length of time.

Even as an artillery platform its not a great option. Gryphon can handle 3x Pilum easily, and flux means nothing in this role. But again it's let down by mobilty, and it's an expensive ship to maintain and deploy.
And most criminal, is that it entirely wastes the potential of it's system, along with most of it's mounts.

Every time I've used a Gryphon, I've been disappointed by it.
Thus:
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/Z8NvXKO.png?1)
[close]
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: RustyCabbage on September 29, 2020, 01:17:17 PM
I dunno about that. The 1200-1400+ range offered by ECCM'd missiles (assuming Sabot Locust) on a Gryphon allow it to keep a standard distance with 800-900+ITU range capital ships. So long as you're using guided missiles (and you really should on a Gryphon), you don't even have to be in the front line if you have a decently tanky frigate/destroyer lineup.

Unstable Injector provides enough mobility for a Gryphon to do its job. Adding SO is downright fanciful.

You might have problems in the late game with capital ship spam, but then you can switch to something like Squall/Hurricane+Harpoons and still be a punishing ship.

In any case, I agree when it comes to Squalls. Without ECCM and EMR it's kind of difficult to get your OP's worth from them, especially against small targets.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: shrek_luigi on September 29, 2020, 02:04:21 PM
love me some squalls  :-*

in spite of their range, I most often put them on tanky capital-ships that fight at point-blank range/get into the fight quickly with burst-drive/plasma jets/etc, and dunk on other big ships or stations with medium mortars/beeg autocannon/etc. its a lot of shield-pressure for something that doesn't cost flux, has a nice EMP underpinning to it for when their shield goes down.....using them close-up helps overcome a lot of the weapon's flaws too, from both an AI decision-making standpoint & its pretty poor tracking against zippy light cruisers, for example.

right now I have one on my "melee mode" legion (gh) and, between that and hammer pods/overclocked longbows, there is a lot of missile spray goin on
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: SaberCherry on September 29, 2020, 03:08:45 PM
I've had decent luck with dual Squalls on ships with twin large missile mounts (such as Atlas Mk 2).  They kind of can't hit a moving target at all usually, because as far as I can tell, the targeting does not take motion into account (let alone acceleration).   But with two of them in tandem and a sufficiently large target, one stream will miss with all of its shots while the other will hit, regardless of which way the target is moving.

I prefer Sabot Pods though; they seem more effective and are far cheaper.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Retry on September 29, 2020, 05:43:31 PM
I'll bet, Sabot Pods are ruthless and one of the best (if not the best) missile type to shove in if you don't know how to use a medium slot.  Tricky projectile to knock out with most PD as far as missiles go due to "activating" a good distance from the target, a big chunk of 2000 shield damage per missile (4000 for a Sabot Pod burst) puts most Destroyers at risk of an overload even at quite low flux levels, and despite being KE damage its shells can really hurt a Frigate with its shields down.  Cruisers and low-end Caps can't exactly scoff at Sabots either.

Even if you're not a Frigate or low end Destroyer and try to armor tank it (either willingly or by force), Sabots aren't toothless; you'll be greeted by a grand total of 2000 EMP damage per sabot, or the equivalent of 5 seconds of trained fire by an Ion Beam.  Squalls do have a small EMP component, but it's not nearly as significant.  In fact, it takes exactly a full Squall salvo to equal the EMP damage that a single Sabot can do.

Basically, Sabots in general (both small and medium size) has a sort of "oh crap!" quality that Squalls don't, in that they can do a ton of heavy-lifting in a very short amount of time.  If you let your guard down against a Sabot-equipped opponent you can go from having a decent-size flux buffer for your shields to an overload in the fraction of a second, which will likely be followed by a bunch of Harpoons thrown your way.  Squalls will not take you by surprise in the same way.  There's no huge burst of front-loaded damage, it's a slow trickle of kinetic damage which, while useful, won't get you either surprise overloads or significant EMP disabling effects.  The fluff description of the Squall being a "terrifying weapon system" isn't really accurate.  They're not toothless, but most ships have effective ways to manage them.

I'll still put Squalls on my large missile mounts sometimes, but that's less due to its efficacy and more because there's no actual Large Sabot missile launchers, and its longer range better compliments the longer range brackets of Capital Ships.  Even then, I'll put the slightly-cheaper Locusts on more often than not, as those feel more versatile versus many targets and they seem to last longer.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Arcagnello on October 04, 2020, 05:12:25 PM
I used Gryphons in my second ever campaign with a very simple setup and they regularly outshone even capitals when it came to damage proved they had adequate support.

Hammer barrage in the heavy mount, sabot pods every other missile mount (and the most efficient PD everywhere else), unstable injector/hardened shields(you could probably also use safety overrides if you felt extra disgusting and cared more about the damage than not incurring in any losses during battle) as modspecs and then shove everything left into flux capacitors.

An aggressive officer (or an aggressive faction doctrine for that matter) will get into close range, apply what probably is the most disgusting mechanic overlap in the whole game wich is firing sabots point blank and having them ejaculate detonate over the enemy's face while still inside your own ship's shield and then will fire the hammer torpedo barrage.

Works real well against [Redacted] and Stations but can and will also more or less obliterate anything close and/or big enough to eat those torpedoes.


Heck I'm even using them right now in my current Kadur Remnant themed campaign with a long range setup to exploit the openings my Immortal fighter squadrons create while engaged with the enemy.

The fact they will basically run out of CR before they empty their missile racks also makes the "ballistic missile" Gryphon one of the best ships to lawnmower hordes of enemy frigades from the other side of the map while they're busy trying to sneak past and behind your allies.


Edit: to actually give some personal opinion that comes anywhere close to what the OP asked, Squalls do indeed work and find a wide application in both player and AI controlled ship setups.

For some reason Most AI capital/ cruiser setups (at least in vanilla) are almost never set up as versatile, mobile point defence platforms with long range, anti shield weapons so the fact you've got an ultra long range shield overloading weapon that 1) can not be stopped 2) effectively kills the ability of the enemy to press onwards 3) opens up for ship-busting action is a huge deal.

You should install it on anything slow that does not do well in close range or on anything with long range weapons/ big enough strike potential to exploit the opening Squalls create, the astral is the best example of a defensive squall, while a Conquest with double squall and double Mjolnir/Hephaestus cannons is the epitome of an offensive squall.


I personally do not use it on either player controlled OR AI setups as the AI tends to just vomit said missiles on the first bloody thing it comes into contact with. Even ships that seemingly look like they were BUILT for squall spam in mind like Conquest/Odyssey do way, way better using Autopulse/Gauss/Heavy AC combined with Hurricanes MIRVs instead.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: ubuntufreakdragon on October 04, 2020, 07:56:40 PM
Squalls 2nd stage coul be tracking but with reduced rotation speed (still a kinetic missile, the faster the missile the lower the effective tracking) so it may turn 30° before reaching max range.
Wouldn't be effective against frigates but may hit agile cruisers or non agile destroyers.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Warnoise on October 06, 2020, 09:38:24 PM
In your opinion, what can be done to make Squalls better?

Squalls are insanely good already.

They delete anything smaller than a cruiser and they are good support as an anti-capital shield.

Dual-squal conquests are extremely annoying
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: RustyCabbage on October 06, 2020, 09:55:58 PM
They delete anything smaller than a cruiser and they are good support as an anti-capital shield.
Do your Squalls magically track like a Harpoon or something? :p

Seems like most others struggle to hit things smaller than a cruiser, let alone delete them.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Modo44 on October 06, 2020, 10:40:28 PM
Do your Squalls magically track like a Harpoon or something? :p
They track more than enough when they are mounted straight forward, like on the Gryphon. Typically only frigates are fast enough to dodge. Fast frigates can not dodge the dual medium Sabot salvo, though.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Arcagnello on October 07, 2020, 03:00:50 AM
I also have some mods adding additional modpsecs and there's one improving missile speed/HP while hurting their handling, and it's really good on squalls is said ships also has a modspec called "Targeting AI Core" wich also improves target tracking. It actually hits frigades with a 50-70% ratio. It's disgusting.

42 Ordinance points worth of disgusting to set up tough (Targeting AI is worth 30OP and Torpedo Spec is worth 12OP on capitals)


That said, squalls are already really good at hitting things. I'd actually nerf them instead if I had to be completely honest with you, along with the Sabot activation distance from the target. They're the prime "AI ravager" you have in the game (besides carriers) as even an AI controlled ship of yours can reliably take down a ship a third, two thirds or even double its own Fleet Points given it's got sabots/squalls and weaponry to follow up on the almost guaranteed overload they're going to cause.
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Warnoise on October 07, 2020, 10:24:09 AM
I also have some mods adding additional modpsecs and there's one improving missile speed/HP while hurting their handling, and it's really good on squalls is said ships also has a modspec called "Targeting AI Core" wich also improves target tracking. It actually hits frigades with a 50-70% ratio. It's disgusting.

42 Ordinance points worth of disgusting to set up tough (Targeting AI is worth 30OP and Torpedo Spec is worth 12OP on capitals)


That said, squalls are already really good at hitting things. I'd actually nerf them instead if I had to be completely honest with you, along with the Sabot activation distance from the target. They're the prime "AI ravager" you have in the game (besides carriers) as even an AI controlled ship of yours can reliably take down a ship a third, two thirds or even double its own Fleet Points given it's got sabots/squalls and weaponry to follow up on the almost guaranteed overload they're going to cause.

This. The only thing I'd nerf the squall is its damage on armor and hull. It is already amazing against shields, but currently it hits pretty hard hulls too (considering its salvo).

Dealing 5 pirate atlas with 2 squalls is a nightmare since you can't even approach them (unless you have a tanky capital like the onslaught)

Next comes the sabot, for me it is the most op missile in the game. The amount of dmg it does is absurd considering it outranges most of the do and it hits instantly. fighting a [Redacted] capital that has tachyon+sabot is a nightmare
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Retry on October 07, 2020, 02:15:52 PM
...Right...

...In any case, I really don't believe in nerfing vanilla weapons based on what 1 specific modded ship with 1-2 specific modded hullmods can do with them...
Title: Re: How the hell do Squalls work, if they work, do they?
Post by: Arcagnello on October 07, 2020, 03:11:23 PM
...Right...

...In any case, I really don't believe in nerfing vanilla weapons based on what 1 specific modded ship with 1-2 specific modded hullmods can do with them...

I may have written it poorly, that ship I described is what I'm using against Squall spam. It has a large missile slot but I don't actually use it. The experience I shared with the squall not missing was a testing I did with it. I ended up going the meme route: No shields, 2k armor, 10% armor retention once it's stripped, 36.000 hullpoints and very efficient kinetic/emp/high explosive ballistic mounts

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/wysPZQc.png)
[close]

It's got targeting AI and 6 Dual Flaks/2 Flaks and is decently able to deal with pretty much any incoming missile that's not, as expected, Sabots (they activate just before the dual AA engages them altough it's not a big deal since I've got Automated Repair Unit) and something like double Atlas Mk II spamming quad squall.