Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Mondaymonkey on June 24, 2020, 08:01:02 AM

Title: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Mondaymonkey on June 24, 2020, 08:01:02 AM
Can we have "forbidden" column in a faction's doctrine screen similar to "prioritize"?

Yes, I know, I can just prioritize some other hull from a same role to effectively nullify frequency of unwanted hulls in a fleet. But sometimes it make add too many ships of those role, as they "prioritized" now, leaving less space for ships you really want.

Also, I am aware that real auto-resolve fleet strength is the same no matter what is prioritized, as detachments generated based on a fleet points. It might be just cosmetic problem, but it is annoying to see ships you hate in your own patrols.

Alternatively, "priority" column can be changed from checkbox to value (0-5), where 0 - do not use, 5 - max priority, 3 - default option, normal frequency.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Megas on June 24, 2020, 08:51:08 AM
Ah, the blacklist suggestion again.  I would like a blacklist option to prevent unwanted things.  The current priority system is ridiculously arcane.

Also, it would be nice if there was a separate priority system for fleets and battlestations.  Currently, weapon priority is set to what I want my battlestations to use, which may not be what I want for ships.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Dread Pirate Robots on June 24, 2020, 09:05:13 AM
I definitely agree, a way of banning certain ships and weapons would help making strongly themed patrols.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Grievous69 on June 24, 2020, 09:50:36 AM
I was wondering when this topic would be brought up again for the 12th time. I can agree to every single one but in the end Alex said something along the lines of: not easily done, too much work for little gain. If it was something easy to add he would've done it by now 100%.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Mondaymonkey on June 24, 2020, 09:58:55 AM
You know...

No. You right. I've should check before creating topic.

Someone please close it.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Grievous69 on June 24, 2020, 10:05:57 AM
Oh don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with repeated suggestions. It just shows what people want in the game. Besides, the search function on this site is not good, and you can't really guess the titles of previous posts most of the time.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Mondaymonkey on June 24, 2020, 10:08:53 AM
STOP.

Wait a minute.

OK, we can not have blacklist option. It is hard to implement and blah-blah. I can understand this.

Why we can not have option to "forget" we ever know that blueprint?

Sounds like good mod request thing.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Megas on June 24, 2020, 10:31:12 AM
It has been a while since the last blacklist topic, enough for necromancy if posted there, so might as well post another, unless it made it to 'Frequently Made Suggestions'

I tried not learning blueprints, but the problem with that is raiding for blueprints will keep coughing up blueprints I did not want to learn.  In the end, I learn all the blueprints then navigate through the minefield of priorities.  There needs to be a better way!
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: SafariJohn on June 25, 2020, 11:52:48 AM
Wasn't the problem that the player might want to block the last ship for a category? The UI could just not allow that, I'd think.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Megas on June 25, 2020, 01:57:29 PM
<wrong topic, cannot delete>
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: MesoTroniK on June 25, 2020, 06:46:04 PM
Quote from: SafariJohn on June 25, 2020, 11:52:48 AM
Wasn't the problem that the player might want to block the last ship for a category? The UI could just not allow that, I'd think.
Let them.
NPC factions can be setup to entirely *not* use phase ships, or capitals, any other group desired, or any specific hull desired... Why should the player not be allowed as such? If they want their factions to spam nothing but Hounds for example? That is on them heh.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Gwyvern on June 25, 2020, 07:44:02 PM
It would indeed be cool to have a great degree of agency to which our own faction's field ships.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: SapphireSage on June 25, 2020, 07:54:12 PM
I think an issue with blocking all ships of a category is that its established that AI fleets don't need logistics since they have infinite supplies/fuel. If nothing negative happens to AI fleets due to logistical concerns, I would simply block all civilian ships and many hybrids so that all FPs are spent on warships rather than civilians giving my fleets an inherent advantage in combat. There's no "Civ ship" doctrine because it would just get dumped all the time anyway, and blocking BPs could functionally lead to the same.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Morrokain on June 25, 2020, 08:50:35 PM
To be honest, I think it's ok to block ships the player thinks is inferior. The way I think about it is that the player needs to find the blueprints to make this possible first so it's not like they can do this immediately. I don't particularly think any one category should be forced on the player fleets.

Player trade fleets could also be an exception in that they have to have freighters of some kind.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Notthebeez on June 30, 2020, 05:31:57 AM
I don't want Science Vessels in my defence fleets. Which idiot at Fleet HQ greenlit that! I bet it was Frank....
I'm starting to see why my colonies are always short on recreational drugs now; the Navy top brass are all high as kites in the fleet design sessions.

If a certain amount of fuel/supply storage is needed to maintain the illusion of a balanced fleet then just say that, and make the player pick a fuel/freight option and have the game balance out quantity numbers. I'm having some right crap turn up in picket fleets. The modern equivalent would be taking your plumbers work transit van on a Frontline tour of Afghanistan, that *** gunna ruin your day.

You can't expect us to go through ticking all those blueprints man, that's torture. I wouldn't inflict that on my accountant ffs.

So yeah, a blacklist would be lovely.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Megas on June 30, 2020, 08:45:15 AM
The two ships I really do not want in my NPC fleets are Atlas and Prometheus because their burn speed is atrocious.  I need to play with priorities to block those two pigs and try to get Phaetons and Colossi instead.

Also, blacklist would be nice for those "I do not care what is in my fleets as long as that one stinker hull does not appear in my fleets ever" moments.

Playing with priorities is also a pain when some hulls qualify under multiple categories.  For example, Gemini may be okay as a freighter, but putting priority on that means not only it appears in trade fleets but also your war fleets, and I do not want them in my war fleets.

Priorities are arcane enough that it is a trial-and-error experience.  This should not be like an early arcade fighting game where player is expected to blunder into the commands for special moves or Fatalities, or find the path in World 7-4 in Super Mario Bros. before time runs out.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Mondaymonkey on June 30, 2020, 09:05:32 AM
Quote from: Megas on June 30, 2020, 08:45:15 AM
or find the path in World 7-4 in Super Mario Bros

Completely offtopic, but I always manage to find it quite fast. Have no idea why everyone hate it. Besides you always can jump it over, IIRC from 4-2 to 8-1. Could be wrong.

At least it was faster than prioritizing blueprints in SS.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Yunru on June 30, 2020, 09:12:03 AM
I find it more annoying that fleets won't include Oxen even if I do prioritise them.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Megas on June 30, 2020, 09:14:40 AM
Quote from: Mondaymonkey on June 30, 2020, 09:05:32 AM
Quote from: Megas on June 30, 2020, 08:45:15 AM
or find the path in World 7-4 in Super Mario Bros

Completely offtopic, but I always manage to find it quite fast. Have no idea why everyone hate it. Besides you always can jump it over, IIRC from 4-2 to 8-1. Could be wrong.

At least it was faster than prioritizing blueprints in SS.
Depends which version.  On the NES, it is fairly easy.  In the arcade version which features some of the lost levels (World 6 is platform hell unlike in the NES), the path is different, hard to find, and hard to traverse as Super Mario.

Also, in arcade version, you cannot warp to World 8-1 like in the NES.  Only up to World 6, I think.  There are other subtle changes that blocks some of the tricks that work in the NES.  And it takes 200 coins for 1up instead of a 100.

World 8 is the hardest world on the NES.  World 8 in the arcade version is the same, but is a breather world compared to worlds 6 and 7 (which are different than on the NES).
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Mondaymonkey on June 30, 2020, 09:21:37 AM
Oh, an arcade! I remember that. Harder than NES. However, I think there was a way to skip 7th level, it was just different place and difficult, so usually it was easier to manage 7-4 than try to avoid it. Could be wrong. That was hell a lot time ago.

Still easier than prioritizing in SS.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: pairedeciseaux on June 30, 2020, 03:37:59 PM
Reading the last message here...

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=15297.msg247279#msg247279

...although it was last year, maybe you guys should not abandon hope, a change like this could still come in a future release.

Regarding the specific suggestion, having a simple allow/deny switch per blueprint would probably be a simple and effective tool. Personally I'm not sure how I feel about it.

On one hand, I feel like I don't care because it's far from the core gameplay... and honestly I don't even build colonies during every run. When I do, most of the time as long as my non-player fleets are half-decent, I'm good. And they are more than half decent because the existing doctrine system allows that, provided I found "good" blueprints.

On the other hand, the control-freak in me demands much more ;D , especially while spending 10+ hours building an empire.
Spoiler
  • Generally speaking: enable, disable, change and review doctrine per fleet type/role/mission. So you don't have a single global doctrine, you have a list of doctrines: default doctrine, trading fleet doctrine, light patrol doctrine, and so on.
  • Enabling/disabling a doctrine means: when a specific doctrine is disabled, the default doctrine is used.
  • Changing and reviewing a doctrine means having a clear view of allowed blueprints. What is not allowed is forbidden. That is, if you have allowed 8 hulls, the doctrine screen must only show those 8 hulls and a sample fleet using those. And the doctrine screen must show the list of allowed weapons and fighters. No priority here, either it's in or it's out. So hulls, weapons, fighters, and a sample fleet all visible on the same doctrine recap screen, using the actual item sprite for all items.
  • Default doctrine. A default doctrine used when the specific doctrine is disabled. The default doctrine cannot be disabled. Allows to have a single global doctrine like today or a common doctrine for some purposes.
  • Specific trading fleet doctrine. Here one would probably choose a mix of specific logistic ships, and specific military escort ships.
  • Specific light patrol fleet doctrine. This is where one would probably choose fast ships.
  • Specific medium patrol fleet doctrine. This is where one might still choose relatively fast ships - think fast cruisers.
  • Specific heavy patrol fleet doctrine. Here maybe one wants big resilient ships and fighter spam.
  • Same with other potential fleet types that may exist in vanilla or not (modding!): planet defence fleet staying in orbit of a planet, jump point defence fleet, raiding fleet, bombardment fleet (for this one even Megas would put the Prometheus in the doctrine, I'm sure :P), invasion fleet, and so on.
  • Specific ... player fleet doctrine! Doctrine-compliant colony-produced player ships (IIRC it already works that way). Doctrine-compliant Autofit Variant?! Admittedly a very different use-case here.
  • Low tech Station doctrine.
  • Midline Station doctrine.
  • High tech Station doctrine.
  • In fact, rather than / in addition to the Station doctrine, maybe the dream is ... a station refit screen!

Crazy overkill? You tell me. :D
[close]
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Megas on June 30, 2020, 06:16:59 PM
Quote
In fact, rather than / in addition to the Station doctrine, maybe the dream is ... a station refit screen!
That would be nice so that I do not need to prioritize for battlestations first and fleets second.  Weapons ships should not use (because AI is not good with them) are much better on a battlestation.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: n1Z0 on July 01, 2020, 02:36:47 PM
Quote from: Megas on June 24, 2020, 10:31:12 AM
It has been a while since the last blacklist topic, enough for necromancy if posted there, so might as well post another, unless it made it to 'Frequently Made Suggestions'

I tried not learning blueprints, but the problem with that is raiding for blueprints will keep coughing up blueprints I did not want to learn.  In the end, I learn all the blueprints then navigate through the minefield of priorities.  There needs to be a better way!

Why not just change blueprints to be single ships instead of entire faction fleets? This way you could tailor your exact experience, rather than having to accept a bunch of unwanted ships purely for the one ship you really want (for production).
 
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Yunru on July 01, 2020, 03:18:40 PM
Quote from: n1Z0 on July 01, 2020, 02:36:47 PM

Why not just change blueprints to be single ships instead of entire faction fleets? This way you could tailor your exact experience, rather than having to accept a bunch of unwanted ships purely for the one ship you really want (for production).
 
Because that still leaves you with the basic (and worst) ships known.
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Serenitis on July 02, 2020, 03:45:42 AM
Could this not work as a tri-state toggle?

(https://i.imgur.com/GMQBzqA.png)
Title: Re: Option to forbid blueprints.
Post by: Megas on July 02, 2020, 05:40:25 AM
Quote from: n1Z0 on July 01, 2020, 02:36:47 PM
Quote from: Megas on June 24, 2020, 10:31:12 AM
It has been a while since the last blacklist topic, enough for necromancy if posted there, so might as well post another, unless it made it to 'Frequently Made Suggestions'

I tried not learning blueprints, but the problem with that is raiding for blueprints will keep coughing up blueprints I did not want to learn.  In the end, I learn all the blueprints then navigate through the minefield of priorities.  There needs to be a better way!
Why not just change blueprints to be single ships instead of entire faction fleets? This way you could tailor your exact experience, rather than having to accept a bunch of unwanted ships purely for the one ship you really want (for production).
Because of raiding!  You steal only unknown blueprints, and all of the them are single ships or weapons, even for common stuff normally found in packs like Hammerheads and Harpoon racks.  If player has not learned blueprint packs, what often happens is player gets the common junk one at a time instead of the rare and elite stuff not found on the packs.  It is not limited to common stuff found in bundles.  It can also apply to rare individual stinkers like Atlas II (I want Falcon-P, not the Atlas II) or slowpokes like normal Atlas or Prometheus killing burn speed of your patrols.  For example, I tried not to learn Atlas, but it came to a point when many raids cough up Atlas instead of a rare high-tech blueprint I want instead.  The only way to guarantee the good stuff from a raid, aside from excessive save-scumming, is to learn all of the junk stuff first, even stinker hulls and weapons I do not want to use, then raid for the good stuff because that is the only thing left after common junk is already known.

So it is a choice between spending too much time save-scumming raids until I get only the blueprints I want, or learning everything and navigate through the hideously arcane priority system to maybe get the ships and weapons I want for my patrols and (especially) battlestations after too much trial-and-error.