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Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Burvjradzite on June 15, 2020, 10:02:39 AM

Title: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Burvjradzite on June 15, 2020, 10:02:39 AM
Just before my third playthrough in Starsector (This time with mods) I want to make this Tier-list of ships I used to conquer planets, destroy T3 space stations and fight a hour-long battles. Well, ofc this tier-list applies to a strategy-scale, not a tactical battle only game. In the late game, for example, the maximum amount of ships in fleet takes place, so even if capital ship is not best performing in the supply/fuel/effectiveness it is still taken just because it one big chunk of power.

I think there are four stages in the game in terms of why you choose one ship for another:
1) Cost, fuel use, supply use, burn level, availability
2) Fuel use, supply use, burn level
3) Burn level, Supply-effectiveness (how much you can bring in a single fight)
4) Fleet limit

The tier list, as you can see, based between these stages

What do you guys think?
mk.1
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/UHk2CSE.png)
[close]
mk.2 with suggested build on pirate falcon and use of many OP on HH as Converted Hangar
(https://imgur.com/JT26TKb.png)


Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Mondaymonkey on June 15, 2020, 10:15:52 AM
Rating vanilla hulls - thankless job.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 15, 2020, 10:29:05 AM
Conquest is F tier while Scarab is somehow C tier, yeah ok I've seen enough.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Burvjradzite on June 15, 2020, 10:39:33 AM
Conquest is F tier while Scarab is somehow C tier, yeah ok I've seen enough.
Well Scarab has 3x time feature, Conquest can't even fire his guns at the same opponent and has a terrible shield, also extremely bad at the ai hands. Conquest just must be player-driven
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Igncom1 on June 15, 2020, 10:57:41 AM
I'd probably put most of the Midline range at the top as while they aren't great at doing multiple things at once, what they do well they are the best at.

Their destroyers pack the best bang for buck in the game, with super ballistic hammerheads, deathbeam sunders, and fighter swarmer drovers! Not that pirate refits really count, but pirate Falcons also pack the most medium missile mounts at a hilariously low costs, letting you outright delete large portions of an enemy fleet within seconds.

I'm a big fan of all the battleships, supercarriers, and battlecarriers for their ability to just pack the most of the stuff you really want in a no-nonsense package. You want cannons? Onslaughts are cost effective beasts who bring energy blasters! Paragons are mobile deathstations and tank damage like you wouldn't believe. Astrals can volley out more bombs and torpedoes then should be physically possible to fit within their hulls. And Legions are a all in one package fleet that does all the work that smaller carriers, gunboats, and their escorts would be doing otherwise.

I don't play as much with the smaller ships as I'm too often getting into armada battles that they just get shredded faster then my Sunders are already.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Burvjradzite on June 15, 2020, 11:20:23 AM
I'd probably put most of the Midline range at the top as while they aren't great at doing multiple things at once, what they do well they are the best at.

Their destroyers pack the best bang for buck in the game, with super ballistic hammerheads, deathbeam sunders, and fighter swarmer drovers! Not that pirate refits really count, but pirate Falcons also pack the most medium missile mounts at a hilariously low costs, letting you outright delete large portions of an enemy fleet within seconds.

I'm a big fan of all the battleships, supercarriers, and battlecarriers for their ability to just pack the most of the stuff you really want in a no-nonsense package. You want cannons? Onslaughts are cost effective beasts who bring energy blasters! Paragons are mobile deathstations and tank damage like you wouldn't believe. Astrals can volley out more bombs and torpedoes then should be physically possible to fit within their hulls. And Legions are a all in one package fleet that does all the work that smaller carriers, gunboats, and their escorts would be doing otherwise.

I don't play as much with the smaller ships as I'm too often getting into armada battles that they just get shredded faster then my Sunders are already.
I agree with Drover and Sunder and I also respect Hammerhead in battle. But I do not usually aim for midline/low tech ships due to low flux capabilities. I'm also note that in combat 1v2 often ends dramatically for the "1" even if "2" has a class lower, so I try to outswarm enemies, the only weakness frigates have — peak performance time.

The game at some point just enforces player to use capital and other big ships just to be able to fight multiple enemy fleets without rest.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: SCC on June 15, 2020, 12:41:02 PM
I have different set of preferences, but the most different opinions on placings I have about Conquest, which I would upgrade to C rank (in AI hands its merely capable, in player hands it can solo entire fleets in some situations), Paragon, which I would upgrade to A rank (the most expensive ship in the game, but very easily worth the expense, unmatched in raw power), Hammerhead, which I would upgrade to A rank as well (the most well rounded destroyer with excellent firepower, placing it ahead of its peers), and Lasher, which I would upgrade to rank B (similar to Hammerhead, but Tempest exists and blows it out the water).

On the other hand, I'd take down Shrike to D rank and Shrike (P) to C rank (it's okay for what it is, but it isn't much), Hyperion down to rank E (it's powerful, but so expensive, it can hardly ever break even), Scarab down to rank F (I tried to make it work, but it's irredeemable rubbish) and Wolf down to rank D (versatile builds are harmless, specialised builds can't compete with other frigates).

Though my criteria are different, since my first filter is burn level (no cruisers until I go cruiser-burn, no capitals until I go capital-burn) and the second is quality of a ship: it has to be either expendable or exquisite. My ships should either die without much notice, or not die at all.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Aereto on June 15, 2020, 03:00:18 PM
That's interesting info to take on. The Paragon is expensive to field, but if you want a ship that can save many a bacon and still live to keep roasting, the Paragon controls the battle line.

Tempests and Drovers are powerful strike projectors in a mobile fleet, while Astrals are the strike projectors in a conventional area superiority fleet.

That being said, I took CR cost per deployment into account when it comes to my fleet configurations, because the way I fight is being the faction's command presence and vanguard, resulting in multiple battles in a single system without docking to a neutral station to restock, and salvage constantly. Especially in late game, where I can field ships to my liking. At that point, I divided my fleet into two teams that I can rotate between battles and maintain CR. I use Efficiency Overhaul exclusively for that campaign strategy of attrition, which pays off very effectively when I enter modded Starsector with Nexelrin, where war weariness make for a strong diplomatic influence in my hands.

Though my criteria are different, since my first filter is burn level (no cruisers until I go cruiser-burn, no capitals until I go capital-burn) and the second is quality of a ship: it has to be either expendable or exquisite. My ships should either die without much notice, or not die at all.

Good thing that certain ships have burn levels matching of smaller classes. Falcon is a cruiser but has a destroyer's mobility.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: MrDaddyPants on June 15, 2020, 05:55:46 PM
I don't post often, but this is offensively bad that i had to.  ;D

No.

You are wrong.

S tier is missing HH. SO HH with reckless officer and sparks is the most consistent ship in the game for just 10DP. Only rivaled by falconP that's even not on the list (look here for falconP builds https://youtu.be/Xjgv1EqMWnY?t=926). Also doom is probably the best economy ship for player to pilot, since it kills more and faster than paragon saves you supply and real life time. Although not as good against remnants and stations.

Tempest S tier? How?
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Locklave on June 15, 2020, 08:41:05 PM
How did Venture escape F tier?

No LP ships?
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Goumindong on June 15, 2020, 09:40:53 PM
How did Venture escape F tier?

No LP ships?

Venture has a lot of uses and is a lot stronger than people give it credit for. Its got capital level armor at 15 OP and still carries 2 medium and 2 small missiles. This gives it flux free DPS and flux free tanking. All in a package that you don't even really care if it explodes. As an example. a conquest has 1200 armor and 12,000 hull. A Venture has 1250 armor and 10,000 hull!

The fact that it anchors well is likely what makes it better than the other options on the F tier, given its costs.

LP were probably ignored because they're either too similar or too pointless in long fights.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Serenitis on June 16, 2020, 01:43:29 AM
Venture has a lot of uses and is a lot stronger than people give it credit for.
This.
I did a "joke" game a while ago where I used nothing but Ventures. It was... Different. Fairly capable-ish though, if a little frustrating due to thier low speed both in & out of combat. Okay with bounties until multiple caps show up. Not great for Ordos (can't quite manage a battleship group - did kill the battleship itself tho).
Venture might be trash. But it's reasonably strong trash.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Igncom1 on June 16, 2020, 01:46:05 AM
Probably the strongest of the 'civilian' ships?
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Serenitis on June 16, 2020, 01:52:10 AM
I'd say yes.
Venture is the largest, and most heavily armed ship which can be built without access to any additional blueprints.
If you build a military base without a heavy industry, your largest colony defence fleets will be squads of bricks Ventures.
They actually do okay enough that H.Ind. isn't a huge priority. (For me.)
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 16, 2020, 03:04:13 AM
Conquest is F tier while Scarab is somehow C tier, yeah ok I've seen enough.
Conquest just must be player-driven
Unlike Aurora and Shrike (and Afflictor too) which are fantastic AI ships /s

I didn't want to be rude but thankfully MrDaddyPants said what I had in mind, this whole list is just comical. The ships are good enough only if you put the right weapons on them. I can immediately tell from your list that you played with ''wrong'' builds on some ships or just gave AI something wacky. Obviously you said it's a personal list so it's not fair to say it's wrong, but it hurts to see it honestly. I'd suggest you experiment a bit more with some different builds this time.

Also where's the Prometheus Mk II?

You guys are defending Venture which is basically a missile meat bag (and also eats missiles from enemy ships) while the poor Mule is at F tier. I'd say it's the best hybrid ship we have, unless I'm forgetting something.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Igncom1 on June 16, 2020, 03:09:56 AM
Depending on what I have access to, and the role of the fleet, there are few ships that I would consider to be unusable. Some are kinda bad, or less good. But I'm not much of a meta guy.

If anything the best ship in the game is a fuel tanker, as it's hard to do anything without one.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Serenitis on June 16, 2020, 03:22:40 AM
poor Mule is at F tier. I'd say it's the best hybrid ship we have
A fair point. Because Mule is good. (imo)
One of the best ship options in the early game. Can fill 5 roles simultaneously. (Freighter, surveyor, light skirmisher, missile platform, aux carrier.)
Not as capable as Venture on paper, but arguably a better choice as thier greater speed + mobility system makes them much more survivable.

More love for the base_bp ships!
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Burvjradzite on June 16, 2020, 03:31:03 AM
I don't post often, but this is offensively bad that i had to.  ;D

No.

You are wrong.

S tier is missing HH. SO HH with reckless officer and sparks is the most consistent ship in the game for just 10DP. Only rivaled by falconP that's even not on the list (look here for falconP builds https://youtu.be/Xjgv1EqMWnY?t=926). Also doom is probably the best economy ship for player to pilot, since it kills more and faster than paragon saves you supply and real life time. Although not as good against remnants and stations.

Tempest S tier? How?

Thanks for reminder of a Falcon (P) I rarely see it, but will try next time a couple of it. Interesting build with hammerhead, a use of it large OP amount. I like to play with reckless officers too, btw. Tempest is  my favorite due to a high speed and harass capabilities.
Conquest is F tier while Scarab is somehow C tier, yeah ok I've seen enough.
Conquest just must be player-driven
Unlike Aurora and Shrike (and Afflictor too) which are fantastic AI ships /s

I didn't want to be rude but thankfully MrDaddyPants said what I had in mind, this whole list is just comical. The ships are good enough only if you put the right weapons on them. I can immediately tell from your list that you played with ''wrong'' builds on some ships or just gave AI something wacky. Obviously you said it's a personal list so it's not fair to say it's wrong, but it hurts to see it honestly. I'd suggest you experiment a bit more with some different builds this time.

Also where's the Prometheus Mk II?

You guys are defending Venture which is basically a missile meat bag (and also eats missiles from enemy ships) while the poor Mule is at F tier. I'd say it's the best hybrid ship we have, unless I'm forgetting something.
Even now i do think shrike with a cost of 8 DP is maximum you can get for a gunship, need officers ofc, but anyway.
I do not think Prometheus Mk II is fun to play.
Also I build Aurora into a gunship too with a speed and deadly strikes, that's how I play most ships.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 16, 2020, 03:43:54 AM
What the hell is a gunship? First I thought you meant small ships that don't have much except one or two guns useful only for harassment, but then you called Aurora a gunship so I have no clue. If it just means ''it has non missile weaponry'' then almost everything is a gunship lol.

But I am really curious on that F tier Conquest, can you please post your build here? I'm betting on a thousand credits it's gonna be a symmetric build.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Burvjradzite on June 16, 2020, 04:05:57 AM
What the hell is a gunship? First I thought you meant small ships that don't have much except one or two guns useful only for harassment, but then you called Aurora a gunship so I have no clue. If it just means ''it has non missile weaponry'' then almost everything is a gunship lol.

But I am really curious on that F tier Conquest, can you please post your build here? I'm betting on a thousand credits it's gonna be a symmetric build.
I understand gunship as a mobile front-oriented ship for harassment (not suppression and also not alpha-strike), with a good shields (0.8 or less) for a flux trading. Weaponry for such gunships are pulse and ir pulse lasers. Also hardened shields and shield conversation is almost a must since such ships are trading non-stop.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: EnragedOxygen on June 16, 2020, 05:05:07 AM
Im deeply offended by this list. The god damn Dominator Cruiser is rated lower than whatever that trash above is. Dominator can obliterate anything except for phase/Paragon/[REDACTED]Capital in a 1v1 battle, and a god damn hammerhead that can be D-moded by a harsh look is better?

I do get where you're coming from, Dominator is dreadfully awfull whithout safety overrides, but with them and double chainguns, best god damn ship in this game. Ai cannot kite you with your amazing burn drives, and when surrounded the very same drives allow you to disengage easily. You shouldnt pilot Dominator like some dumb frontline anchor, its an opportunistic flanker and finisher, and a damn good one at that.

Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 16, 2020, 05:21:59 AM
I never thought I'd be hearing the words Dominator and flanker together, but if it works, more power to you. And yeah if you take a look at what each tier should represent normally, it really can't be so low in D tier. But then you see a Paragon there and you get so confused you can't even argue with anything. To top it all off, both of them are in the same tier as the bloody Gremlin. I just noticed that now, what in the blazes...
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: MrDaddyPants on June 16, 2020, 05:23:57 AM
I don't post often, but this is offensively bad that i had to.  ;D

No.

You are wrong.

S tier is missing HH. SO HH with reckless officer and sparks is the most consistent ship in the game for just 10DP. Only rivaled by falconP that's even not on the list (look here for falconP builds https://youtu.be/Xjgv1EqMWnY?t=926). Also doom is probably the best economy ship for player to pilot, since it kills more and faster than paragon saves you supply and real life time. Although not as good against remnants and stations.

Tempest S tier? How?

Thanks for reminder of a Falcon (P) I rarely see it, but will try next time a couple of it. Interesting build with hammerhead, a use of it large OP amount. I like to play with reckless officers too, btw. Tempest is  my favorite due to a high speed and harass capabilities.



While i may not agree on most of placements, having falconP and HH in S tier. And S tier is all that matters anyway. Your list is now officially DaddyPants approved  ;D.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Koyocire on June 16, 2020, 05:57:39 AM
Hehe, I used to pay attention to tier lists.  Then I tried the vanilla Legion, a ship almost universally viewed as meh.  With it I was able to shred anything (sans any red skills mind you) including Alpha cored Radiants.  Me thinks these tier lists might be HIGHLY subjective.  Anyway, I see you are rating ships with converted shuttle bays/sparks fairly highly...might I suggest the Valkyrie.  With a recovery cost of 3, it is by far the cheapest way to get sparks on the field.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: MrDaddyPants on June 16, 2020, 06:38:38 AM
Hehe, I used to pay attention to tier lists.  Then I tried the vanilla Legion, a ship almost universally viewed as meh.  With it I was able to shred anything (sans any red skills mind you) including Alpha cored Radiants.  Me thinks these tier lists might be HIGHLY subjective.  Anyway, I see you are rating ships with converted shuttle bays/sparks fairly highly...might I suggest the Valkyrie.  With a recovery cost of 3, it is by far the cheapest way to get sparks on the field.

Valkyre is sucker compared to what BuffaloII brings for 1DP/supply recovery point. However the list is supposed to be for campaign. You will not run 30 valkyres or BuffalosII... FalconP and HH are easy to get. And they are more economical since you bring however many you need to match opposition can have some D-mods and be just fine. 4 HH will do much more work than 1 legion for it's DP cost.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Dandlion68 on June 16, 2020, 06:42:45 AM
"Your Dumb™ Battleship can't stand my legion of my Dagger-carrying Drovers, don't even try."
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: FooF on June 16, 2020, 06:45:25 AM
Tier lists are highly subjective but as more people make them, you start seeing trends and patterns. That's the data you use for balancing.

For example, the Drover is almost universally cited as S-tier and the best pound-for-pound Carrier in the game. Hammerheads are about in the same boat when it comes to line Destroyers. Tempests are among the best Frigates, Afflictors are among the best Phase Ships, Aurora's are great in the player's hands but sorta meh otherwise, etc. etc. When these kind of observations come up and time and time again, it's a good baseline as to where things actually are. Skills/officers also skew things and some ships, with a bump from Loadout Design 3 (or whatever) can really come into their own.

From the perspective of balance, you should see a bell-curve with a few outliers on the extremes but the bulk of options somewhere in the middle. There *should* be a lot of C-tier ships: good-but-not-great options that fill a particular role or excel in a few circumstances. Personally, I think the curve is skewed to the right with the majority of ships in the C and B categories.

Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 16, 2020, 06:55:55 AM
@Foof

What you said makes sense but keep in mind that not every tier list is the same. Most don't even have an E tier that's present here. And then there's the maker's understanding of each tier.

For example you say C tier ships are ''good but not great'' while I think that describes the B tier. In my mind C tier ships are either niche or something that doesn't have too many flaws but they become obsolete once you find something better.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Sendrien on June 16, 2020, 07:47:31 AM
I have seen so many people consistently trash the Scarab, but for me, it is one of my most consistent performers, especially in AI hands (balanced pilot). I place heavy priority in getting my hands on a few Scarabs as quickly as possible. They usually carry my fleet into the late game.

My build is ultra-simple: 5 front-facing IR Pulse Lasers with 4 hullmods - Hardened Shields, Front Conversion, Flux Coil Adjunct, Flux Distributor and then max capacitors and as many vents as I can fit.

One Scarab configured this way can *flawlessly* solo almost any Frigate or Destroyer. Some cruisers. Two can take down almost any cruiser without taking damage.

And because the only items you have to procure are the ultra-common IR Pulse Lasers, once you get your hands on the Scarab, you're good to go.

I acknowledge that there are far more experienced people on this forum, but for the life of me I cannot understand why the Scarab is trashed so heavily.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 16, 2020, 08:07:54 AM
Because even with SO you can't fire 5 IR Pulse Lasers for long, and even with that much ''firepower'' you're basically just tickling the armor of anything that's not a frigate or a Sunder. 8 OP is a lot for a frigate. For the same price and same burn you could get a Shrike, which is miles better, and it's not even that good of a ship, so that tells you enough.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: TaLaR on June 16, 2020, 08:19:04 AM
One Scarab configured this way can *flawlessly* solo almost any Frigate or Destroyer. Some cruisers.

Which isn't that impressive claim at all.

LMG+Annihilator Lasher can do the same faster and is way more available, in a lot of cases even without SO.
Wolf may not be a fast killer, but it's fairly reliable. Just get behind any front shielded target or use point-blank skims to bypass shield against something like Medusa.
That's without listing actually elite frigates like Afflictor(max skilled can kill 200-300 DP of enemy ships), Shade(yes, it's a lot worse than Afflictor, but cloak + AMs still make it 2nd best frigate), Hyperion (tiresome to pilot and unimpressive logistically, but still good enough to solo a Paragon skill-less), Tempest (way below the trio, but is the best AI frigate and pleasant to pilot if you get it early)...

Scarab's system is powerful and interesting, but the ship isn't a very good platform for it.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Eji1700 on June 16, 2020, 09:20:10 AM
https://imgur.com/a/3FfvWzG

To me-

S tier- basically game breaking.  Clearly too good/designed to end the game.
A tier- never ever sad to have in my fleet
B tier- more than happy to have at any point, but might drop for an A tier if i feel like trying harder.
C tier- serviceable but probably not in a late game fleet.
D tier- the only ship i have in here is an afflictor that I don't recognize...so if i did have one i'd say "ship that could use some work"
E tier- Stuff that seems meant to be in a player fleet that probably should never be in the player fleet.
F tier- Arguably a waste of asset work/target practice only.

I should add than anything down to C tier i'll usually play with in a themed run where i try to impose rules on myself to make things more interesting.

In general i think people sleep on a lot of the hulls because there really isn't any in game reason to experiment with them, but things like the venture/condor pull a lot more weight than given credit.

Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Thaago on June 16, 2020, 09:24:30 AM
I don't trust Lashers in AI hands past the very very early game. Low speed + no maneuverability system + mediocre defenses = dead frigate the instant it either gets into trouble or runs into fighters. With SO they are fast enough to survive pretty well, but they then require a reckless officer: not the end of the world, but I have better ships to use officers on than a Lasher very quickly. Wolves are a little better because of the skimmer, but they also evaporate under fighter pressure. At this point I'd rate Omens/Centurions/Brawlers better than the poor old Wolf/Lasher of the old days.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: TaLaR on June 16, 2020, 10:13:10 AM
If I ever use AI Lashers, that would be 2x Railgun + LAG non-SO build.
But single SO Lasher is cheap and easily available way to graduate from smuggling-only spacer start to being able to kill most small-to-medium roaming pirate/pather fleets in very supply-efficient manner.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Burvjradzite on June 16, 2020, 10:38:15 AM
https://imgur.com/a/3FfvWzG

To me-

S tier- basically game breaking.  Clearly too good/designed to end the game.
A tier- never ever sad to have in my fleet
B tier- more than happy to have at any point, but might drop for an A tier if i feel like trying harder.
C tier- serviceable but probably not in a late game fleet.
D tier- the only ship i have in here is an afflictor that I don't recognize...so if i did have one i'd say "ship that could use some work"
E tier- Stuff that seems meant to be in a player fleet that probably should never be in the player fleet.
F tier- Arguably a waste of asset work/target practice only.

I should add than anything down to C tier i'll usually play with in a themed run where i try to impose rules on myself to make things more interesting.

In general i think people sleep on a lot of the hulls because there really isn't any in game reason to experiment with them, but things like the venture/condor pull a lot more weight than given credit.
I've seen some changes I can understand, some up or down for one tier or two, but. What about Mora? It's tanky, but it's not that carrier should have. Atlas mk.2 with a burn 6? It is good for a DP cost, but campaign-wise absolutely not.
I see people likes Lashers, but anyway, it's only for early game.
Legion S tier, Onslaught A tier — burn 7, both slow AF, has many weaknesses. I do must say, my Onslaught well helped me destroy couple T3 stations, but I would not take it to ordinary battle.
Mule, Venture, Gemini — at some point they are necessary or given at start, but honestly, I try to get rid of them asap. From my pov they can win in a battle only if they outtime their opponents since that types of ships has great peak operating time.

Also I put monitor in S tier because with some perks it can indefinitely tank stations most heavy fire which helped me a lot. It is really game-breaking.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: FooF on June 16, 2020, 11:35:51 AM
I won't use the graphic, but here's my list:

S-Tier: Tempest, Afflictor, Drover, Aurora (player), Doom, Paragon
A-Tier: Hammerhead, Harbinger, Falcon(P), Heron, Odyssey, Astral, Conquest (player)
B-Tier: Omen, Monitor, Centurion, Shade, Shepherd, Wolf, Sunder, Medusa, Shrike(P), Aurora (AI), Apogee, Falcon, Dominator, Eagle, Gryphon, Mora, Conquest (AI), Onslaught, Legion
C-Tier: Brawler, Lasher, Wolf, Vigilance, Scarab, Hyperion, (basically all pure logistic ships that never see combat go here), Shrike, Enforcer, Mule
D-Tier: Cerebrus, Hound, Gremlin, Kite, Wayfarer, Condor, Gemini, Colossus Mk. II/III, Venture, Atlas/Prometheus Mk. II
F-Tier: Mudskipper Mk. II, Buffalo Mk. II, (all non-combat Civilian ships that can't be made into combat)

Tally:
S - 6
A - 7
B - 19
C - 9 (+ Logistic ships)
D - 12
F - 2 (+ Non-combat)
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Eji1700 on June 16, 2020, 12:18:58 PM
https://imgur.com/a/3FfvWzG

To me-

S tier- basically game breaking.  Clearly too good/designed to end the game.
A tier- never ever sad to have in my fleet
B tier- more than happy to have at any point, but might drop for an A tier if i feel like trying harder.
C tier- serviceable but probably not in a late game fleet.
D tier- the only ship i have in here is an afflictor that I don't recognize...so if i did have one i'd say "ship that could use some work"
E tier- Stuff that seems meant to be in a player fleet that probably should never be in the player fleet.
F tier- Arguably a waste of asset work/target practice only.

I should add than anything down to C tier i'll usually play with in a themed run where i try to impose rules on myself to make things more interesting.

In general i think people sleep on a lot of the hulls because there really isn't any in game reason to experiment with them, but things like the venture/condor pull a lot more weight than given credit.
I've seen some changes I can understand, some up or down for one tier or two, but. What about Mora? It's tanky, but it's not that carrier should have. Atlas mk.2 with a burn 6? It is good for a DP cost, but campaign-wise absolutely not.
I see people likes Lashers, but anyway, it's only for early game.
Legion S tier, Onslaught A tier — burn 7, both slow AF, has many weaknesses. I do must say, my Onslaught well helped me destroy couple T3 stations, but I would not take it to ordinary battle.
Mule, Venture, Gemini — at some point they are necessary or given at start, but honestly, I try to get rid of them asap. From my pov they can win in a battle only if they outtime their opponents since that types of ships has great peak operating time.

Also I put monitor in S tier because with some perks it can indefinitely tank stations most heavy fire which helped me a lot. It is really game-breaking.

Mora's stats/slots make it flexible as hell, and it's a ship I don't mind piloting and throwing in AI hands.  You can load it up as a backline, shoving all the OP into high cost fighters/bombers, or you can give it some basic fighters (vulture/khopesh sort of thing), a few half decent guns, and let it brawl like a god on the front lines.  The AI is stupid good with damper fields, so you can also make them walking PD platforms that will just not die.  They're obviously slow so they're not great at escorting faster ships, but I will ALWAYS take more mora's.  Easily one of my favorite ships in the game in that it feels very powerful but not absurdly so.

Atlas- I modify my fleet depending on my mission.People worry about burn rate too much.  If you're going pirate base/bounty hunting and need some damage the Atlas is more than fine.  It's not something I want to be lugging around all the time (and sometimes i'll spend OP to get the burn rate up or get a tug) but it has uses.  Once i start getting better capitals it rotates out of use usually, but even then as an artillery platform there's very few options that compare.

Lasher- Totally disagree they're early game only.  Having a small squad of 4ish lashers/wolfs is crazy useful for the mobility alone.  Group them up and send them to harass on the flanks and keep the AI worried about letting them behind. You lose them, oh well, they aren't tempests, and as the enemy fleet stretches you can send them in and snipe off carriers.  People vastly underrate mobility becuase it's not as useful in AI hands as it could be, but with just a little effort you can get pretty big rewards out of them.  Granted you don't NEED to because you can also faceroll everything flying only destroyers and up, but I always like having frigates in my end game fleet, especially disposable ones (i don't like risking tempests given they're so insanely good).

Legion- again people overhype burn speed.  It's not that hard to get around, and for a legion it's 100% worth it.  It's like a bigger mora.  Throw whatever the hell you want on it and watch it wreck shop.

Onslaught- more burnspeed being whatever.  Onslaught is hindered by its flux/op issues, but I'd still rather have it than a lot of the ships mentioned.  Burn drive in player hands can get you quick kills on critical targets, and while arming one is not easy, it can still fit a multitude of roles and be a constant threat. I usually throw missile racks on it and just load it to the brim with missiles and then whatever supporting weaponry fits.

Venture- Super slept on.  It's a missile platform, plain and simple.  Treat it as if it was a destroyer sized gryphon with cruiser armor.  I generally have one or two in the early/mid game as support missile platforms to help lob sabot's/harpoons wherever is needed, and the salvage bonus doesn't hurt at all.  I think ships like this should matter more, and for longer (cargo and money should really be more limiting than they are imo), because as is everyone overlooks how powerful something like this can be when kitted out properly.

Gemini- Yeah you'll rotate this out eventually, but like the condor I think this doesn't get a fair shake.  It's insanely outclassed because your other mobile carrier option is one of the best ships in the game, but I'll cart 2-5 gemini's around well into mid game, usually kitted out with PD + salamander + whatever wing I want to support with.  Mule actually winds up fitting a similar role because I almost always put converted hanger on it(making it much better imo).

Buffalo MK2- someone else mentioned it, but i'd probably but this in C-.  They're a bit hard to use right at first, but the amount of burst these can bring to a fight for their Deploy/Cost is nuts.  You do need to retreat them when they run dry (wish there was an auto order for that on missile ships) but having a few of these with different loadouts escort a venture is a common thing for me in the early game.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Maeleth on June 16, 2020, 12:55:10 PM
Legion S tier, Onslaught A tier — burn 7, both slow AF, has many weaknesses.
Such as?.. I can't honestly name a single one. Both ships are great both in player and AI hands, carry enough weapons to trade with any capital and win (or pop out of existence any ship below 15 DP in seconds), have a decent speed, armor and enough OP to install every hullmod you've ever wanted.
As for the burn, who actually cares? 4xOx are mandatory in every lategame fleet anyway, which translates into constant 20 burn.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Igncom1 on June 16, 2020, 01:05:34 PM
Anything faster then a particular ship isn't the kind of thing it should really be engaging anyway.

Hunt frigates with interceptors, destroyers with cruisers and so on.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Thaago on June 16, 2020, 01:28:25 PM
I will gladly take Gemini's and Mule's into my fleets! They aren't great combatants, but they are useful to deploy for hard fights. They also have enough cargo capacity to really boost an exploration fleet's limit without sacrificing its combat too much.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Maeleth on June 16, 2020, 01:47:01 PM
I will gladly take Gemini's and Mule's into my fleets!
I'm with you on Mule, it's an amazing support ship (HVD+2xSalamander+2xNeedler and ConvHangar is my go-to choise) with good speed, armor, cargo and low maintenance profile. Pirate version is even better.
 But Gemini? Why? It's basically a suicide boat with paper-thin shield&armor, 50(!!!) speed, 1 hangar (albeit Reserve Deployment helps a tiny bit) for 9 DP and only 55 OP. Why not pick a Condor or Valkyrie w/CH plus Buffalo or a pair of Shepherds? It's not like you're severely limited by 30 ship limit in early game.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Thaago on June 16, 2020, 02:51:16 PM
Well compared to all those options, the Gemini consumes fewer supplies/fuel... and is better in combat. Currently reserve deployment is so good that Gemini's are actually as good carriers as Condors, at least for certain fighters, and everything else about the ship is superior, including its ability to mount flak or long ranged kinetics, better speed, more OP (and it only needs to buy 1 wing with them), vastly better shield, better flux... etc etc. Sure its got less hull/armor, but its shield is so much better that I'd wager on the gemini taking more punishment before dying (and its faster anyways to get away from the enemy). Probably the only thing a Condor can do better than a Gemini is Salamander spam, as the fast missile system works perfectly with infinite ammo, cooldown based missiles.

Its a bit sad for Condors that I honestly consider them worse than the carrier-cargo hybrid ship :p. But this should already be fixed for next version: the Gemini is only so good because reserve deployment is uhhh strong, which I think got changed.

Exception here is Shepherds, which tend to survive, give nice drone support, and give salvage benefits as well. They are some of my favorite ships for early game!
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Maeleth on June 16, 2020, 03:27:28 PM
Maybe it's just my horrible memories from first playthrough. Poor Gemini would always die first in any combat situation, despite being an okay ship on paper. Besides, for 3 extra DP we have the allmighty Drover, so there is absolutely no reason to use Gemini aside from self-imposed challenge.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Koyocire on June 16, 2020, 03:40:44 PM
Exception here is Shepherds, which tend to survive, give nice drone support, and give salvage benefits as well. They are some of my favorite ships for early game!

Thank you!  For anyone who plays the game legitimately (i.e. doesn’t use an exploit to amass ridiculous wealth bypassing the early game), Shepherd is king.  It’s cheep, good in early combat, has good campaign stats, cheep to recover, improves salvaging, makes surveying cheep, etc.  Of all the ships in the game, it’s the only one I would ever consider giving an S tier.  The reason being is that it is the only ship, if deleted from the game, would make the game significantly harder for me.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Maeleth on June 16, 2020, 03:56:46 PM
Exception here is Shepherds, which tend to survive, give nice drone support, and give salvage benefits as well. They are some of my favorite ships for early game!

Thank you!  For anyone who plays the game legitimately (i.e. doesn’t use an exploit to amass ridiculous wealth bypassing the early game), Shepherd is king.  It’s cheep, good in early combat, has good campaign stats, cheep to recover, improves salvaging, makes surveying cheep, etc.  Of all the ships in the game, it’s the only one I would ever consider giving an S tier.  The reason being is that it is the only ship, if deleted from the game, would make the game significantly harder for me.

1 Salvage rig, 1 Buffalo and 1 random combat frigate basically equals 3 Shepherds (in and out of combat), give or take. Surveying bonus is nice but not critical, as you'll always have some extra supplies in your cargo anyway. It's a great ship, but not necessary irreplaceable.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Koyocire on June 16, 2020, 04:34:37 PM
1 Salvage rig, 1 Buffalo and 1 random combat frigate basically equals 3 Shepherds (in and out of combat), give or take. Surveying bonus is nice but not critical, as you'll always have some extra supplies in your cargo anyway. It's a great ship, but not necessary irreplaceable.

3 Shepherds are significantly better in combat than those 3...and are cheaper...and have better fuel efficiency.  I’ve been able to pull off some crazy hijinks with a handful of Shepherds.  The only part of the game I find difficult anymore is the early game, and for me at least, the Shepherd is definitely my crutch to get through it.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 16, 2020, 07:05:47 PM
I don't find tier lists like this all that useful because ships value changes drastically over the course of the campaign. I usually just mentally rank ships against other ships of the same class, and then decide how many ships of a certain class I want. There aren't really enough ships to fill out a full letter grade scale for each ship class (frigate/destoyer/cruiser/capital) so if I had to make a system for classifying ships value in my fleet, I would give ships a rank premium/good/mediocre (and everything else is not worth using), and then give a priority for each class of ship over the course of the campaign. Even with this system, there are some ships that have their value change over the course of the campaign.


A rough idea for my ship rankings in each class would be something like this (anything not listed is in the bad category or I forgot it because I don't feel like typing them all out):
Spoiler
AI frigates
premium: tempest/omen*/monitor
good: lasher/centurion/shephard/shade/afflictor
mediocre: wolf/brawler/vigilance/kite

AI destroyers
premium: hammerhead/drover
good: medusa/sunder(+)/harbinger
mediocre: enforcer/shrike/mule

AI cruisers
premium: apogee*/heron**
good: doom/aurora/eagle(+)/falcon (usually I reserve doom and aurora for myself, but Ill use extra ones for my fleet If I need it)
mediocre: dominator(+)/mora

AI capitals
premium: paragon
good: astral/conquest/legion/odyssey (odysseys are almost always reserved for me If I find them)
mediocre: onslaught

*I highly value ships that add extra sensor range

**I also rank the heron highly because there aren't really any other ships with long enough PPT, similar number of bays/DP and and a fighter centric ship system. The drovers PPT is too short and the drover is bit too squishy for last game IMO, and there are no other cruiser/capital sized carriers that fit the bill for me. The mora doesn't have a fighter ship system and doesn't have good campaign stats, the legion is a battle carrier that doesn't give the bay/DP value and the astral is wasted on non-bombers, so I almost exclusively use herons to provide fighter support late in the game hence the premium rating.
[close]

I rank player ships a bit differently:
Spoiler
early game player ships:
premium: tempest(-)/hammerhead (phase ships would also be here if I used them)
good: falcon/medusa/sunder(+)
mediocre: wolf/lasher/shrike

late game player ship:
premium: doom/odyssey/paragon
good: aurora(+)/eagle/conquest
mediocre: onslaught/legion/dominator
[close]

My general philosophy for fleets is something like this:

I add premium ships almost always unless I can't fit them in the fleet cap, I add good ships if I feel I could use more ships of that class, and I add mediocre ships only if I feel like I NEED more ships of that class currently and can't find any better ones.

Spoiler
early game:
I consider this to be the time when I am unwilling to drop my burn below 9 or 10. I'm looking for 6-8 frigates and 4-8 destroyers. My player ship preference is SO tempest or SO hammerhead early. Once I feel like have enough destroyers, I move on to mid game

mid game:
I consider mid-game when I start going for burn 8 ships and fill out my fleet with cruisers. Usually the fleet cap becomes and issue in this stage of the game. I usually keep whatever premium frigates and premium/good destroyers I have and retire everything else. I target havinge 2-3 cruiser sized carriers and 4-6 combat cruisers, but I sometimes will add extra cruisers if I am very combat focused. My player ship preference tends towards more firepower. I will sometimes use SO cruisers (falcon/eagle) or aurora/doom if I can find them.

late game:
I consider this everything after I start using capital ships (dropping my base burn to 6, or more realistically, burning tons of fuel with tugs to keep my burn up). I like to have 2 capitals at this point for general bounty hunting, but I will add more capitals for particularly tough fights or remnant farming. I usually retire almost all of my frigates and destroyers by this point and fill out the fleet with mostly cruisers. I'll keep a couple small SO ships for pursuits and derelicts but, other than that, between the fleet cap, officer limit, and ppt, I just can't find a use for them. My flagship preference is mostly odyssey/doom/paragon, but sometimes I'll fly my early game flagships to save supplies in easier fights.
[close]

Obviously these aren't hard demarcations (I don't remove my frigates and destroyers as soon as I get a capital ship), but more more the directions that my fleet tends towards. I might jump to mid/late game early if I get some good free ships from salvage (or I might store them for a bit). I also almost always have a SO tempest in my fleet through the entire campaign that I use for pursuits and also to solo easy battles like the derelict drone fights.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Ishman on June 16, 2020, 11:38:30 PM
I realize the astral is *really* boring to fly, but come on y'all, search your souls. You know it's the second best ship in the game, objectively.

Recall with 6 bombers is absolutely broken, only ridiculous fighter swarms stops it, as there's nothing vanilla with enough PD to counter it (Unless you face a radiant which has rolled 5 paladins and is using the buddy system).

For a less objective take on ships, I also feel like everyone severely undervalues how many sabots a gryphon can bring to the party. Tossing out 7,000 kinetic damage with one click, backed by locusts or hurricane/reapers/hammers from the large means you get to choose 6 ships that WILL die, and threaten another 6 before you autoforge a fresh set of sabots. All on a ship that can be chain deployed 5 times from 100% cr before even reaching malfunction threshold. Yeah, it's slow, it's paper, has bad weapon arcs for its ballistics, and the AI can't pilot it at all - but that's some great combat efficiency for something without fighters.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 17, 2020, 04:22:21 AM
Well I was bored so I made my own list, and as OP I took campaign stats into account.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/ndplhtg.png)
[close]

Sorry for the quality, also I should've probably inserted another row for some tiers, looking at it now it looks suuuuper wide.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Burvjradzite on June 17, 2020, 04:32:13 AM
Well I was bored so I made my own list, and as OP I took campaign stats into account.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/ndplhtg.png)
[close]

Sorry for the quality, also I should've probably inserted another row for some tiers, looking at it now it looks suuuuper wide.
A good tier-list. Roughly, I disagree only with Centurion and Shrike. Stop hating Shrike! >:(
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 17, 2020, 05:43:33 AM
I honestly don't hate it, actually it's pretty good for having frigate burn. But I've seen it die stupidly soooo many times, if it weren't for that it would easily be B tier, Pirate Shrike even higher. And that's another thing, regular Shrike is worse despite having MORE OP than the (P) version. It's just a Sabot Pod tax The Ship.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Megas on June 17, 2020, 06:04:06 AM
I honestly don't hate it, actually it's pretty good for having frigate burn. But I've seen it die stupidly soooo many times, if it weren't for that it would easily be B tier, Pirate Shrike even higher. And that's another thing, regular Shrike is worse despite having MORE OP than the (P) version. It's just a Sabot Pod tax The Ship.
Meanwhile, Sabot Pod is a rare, elite blueprint, and finding one to buy is not easy, which means Shrike may not find a pod early enough when Shrikes are useful.

I have gone through the game without finding Shrike and good enough weapons before it has become obsolete.

At least the (P) is much easier to find (loot one from pirates), and it does not need Sabot Pod.  Normal Shrike should just be Shrike (P) with +5 OP.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: SCC on June 17, 2020, 07:20:11 AM
I guess I can post a list I just made up, too. I don't use many phase ships, so not all of them are rated. 5 is too good, 1 is too bad. I'm not a fan of spectra too wide.

5: Tempest, Omen, Drover, Falcon (P), Astral
4: Centurion, Lasher, Monitor, Shepherd, Hammerhead, Medusa, Apogee, Falcon, Heron, Doom, Paragon, Conquest
3: Brawler (all variants), Kite, Enforcer (next version), Sunder, Shrike (P), Eagle, Dominator, Aurora, Mora, Onslaught, Odyssey, Legion
2: Wolf, Vigilance, Condor, Buffalo Mk II, Shrike, Gryphon, Venture, Atlas Mk II, Prometheus Mk II, Condor, every combat freighter that isn't Apogee
1: Scarab, Hyperion, Mudskipper Mk II, Gremlin

Tempest might not be too good, just good, but I have a soft spot for it. It doesn't hurt that it's the second best playership in the overall campaign (that list goes 1. Conquest, 2. Tempest, 3. Aurora, 4. Paragon, 5. Astral).
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Thaago on June 17, 2020, 08:53:29 AM
I honestly don't hate it, actually it's pretty good for having frigate burn. But I've seen it die stupidly soooo many times, if it weren't for that it would easily be B tier, Pirate Shrike even higher. And that's another thing, regular Shrike is worse despite having MORE OP than the (P) version. It's just a Sabot Pod tax The Ship.
Meanwhile, Sabot Pod is a rare, elite blueprint, and finding one to buy is not easy, which means Shrike may not find a pod early enough when Shrikes are useful.

I have gone through the game without finding Shrike and good enough weapons before it has become obsolete.

At least the (P) is much easier to find (loot one from pirates), and it does not need Sabot Pod.  Normal Shrike should just be Shrike (P) with +5 OP.

By accident (IE not having 2 sabot pods) I equipped 2 Shrikes, one with a sabot pod and 1 with a harpoon pod, both with heavy blasters. I would look at their battle contribution with Combat Analytics and could not tell which was which! Sometimes one would be higher, sometimes the other, but they both contributed well (average of about 100% which is decent for a light AI unit).

Before this accidental test I would have agreed that Sabot pods are the way to go, but accidental testing in real combat showed that sabot vs harpoon is roughly equal in terms of contribution. From watching them in action, Sabot is a better duellist, so if it gets isolated vs a destroyer that build will do better. The Harpoon was a much better finisher though: sinking 4 harpoons + firing the heavy blaster a bunch is a deadly burst into a high flux enemy. I would often give the harpoon one orders to escort me until we engaged the enemy, where I disabled the escort to let it off leash, so that it would be around allies to create opportunities for it.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 17, 2020, 09:07:57 AM
Yea I've heard you mention that story once, tho I still don't get how the analytics work since I don't use it. What exactly does 100% damage mean? If it's just 100% of its own hull than that's not really that amazing. You can throw Harpoon Pods on everything and it'll just unload on overloaded ships. Does it make a difference that it helps kill ships faster? Yes. But I don't care much for it since most overloaded ships already die pretty fast.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: FooF on June 17, 2020, 12:46:54 PM
I realize the astral is *really* boring to fly, but come on y'all, search your souls. You know it's the second best ship in the game, objectively.

Recall with 6 bombers is absolutely broken, only ridiculous fighter swarms stops it, as there's nothing vanilla with enough PD to counter it (Unless you face a radiant which has rolled 5 paladins and is using the buddy system).

For a less objective take on ships, I also feel like everyone severely undervalues how many sabots a gryphon can bring to the party. Tossing out 7,000 kinetic damage with one click, backed by locusts or hurricane/reapers/hammers from the large means you get to choose 6 ships that WILL die, and threaten another 6 before you autoforge a fresh set of sabots. All on a ship that can be chain deployed 5 times from 100% cr before even reaching malfunction threshold. Yeah, it's slow, it's paper, has bad weapon arcs for its ballistics, and the AI can't pilot it at all - but that's some great combat efficiency for something without fighters.

The Astral is perhaps the best force multiplier in the game but it is no battleship that can solo medium-sized fleets. You have to have ships in front taking hits or running interference. Likewise, a Cruiser can easily solo an Astral in fleet actions so the fact that it is relatively vulnerable puts it in my "A" class rather than "S." The Paragon has no such limitations and is excellent at everything, save its cost.

Also, I like the Omen but a lot of people are calling it S-tier. It shreds fighters, is cheap to deploy, and typically keeps itself safe but I don't consider it OP or in the same league as the Tempest. Someone convince me why it's S-tier...
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 17, 2020, 01:00:44 PM
People tend to often forget downsides when something seems very strong to them. Like people see a 4 Tach lance Paragon (which isn't even that great always) and immediately call it broken despite its flaws. There are very few truly broken ships in the game. This is why I have lots of ships in A tier. With the right build, most of the ships can be really really useful in battles, but that doesn't mean they're perfect.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Thaago on June 17, 2020, 01:56:03 PM
FooF, I'd call Omen S tier for late game (ant tournaments...) because its arguably equal to the tempest in value (just a very different role), but is only 5 DP instead of 8. In an endgame battle where the player is DP limited that matters a surprising amount. It can pretty easily have 10k shield hitpoints in a 360 bubble, making it significantly tankier than a Tempest as long as it doesn't get hit with shield piercing weapons, and as you said murders fighters and can disable bigger ships. Best bang for buck anti-fighter in the game, has improved sensors, ECM built it, and is cheap. And in late game fights I don't really need Tempests - they don't have long enough PPT and are liable to get popped, plus cost the same DP as a Shrike which is more reliable - but I do need anti-fighter/lockdown escort frigates.

In parts of the game where the Tempest still shines, I'd call it significantly better than an Omen - in those stages I'd put omen at A.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 17, 2020, 02:36:53 PM
For me, Omens are s-tier early because of their sensor and ecm bonuses in addition to being tanky and amazing against fighters. I mostly stop using them in end-game because the sensor bonus become useless and at the end of the day, they are frigates that don't have enough health or PPT to survive late game battles. I will say that omens survive much more consistently than other frigates in late game and I think they are the best late game frigate but the PPT really hurts, and they still routinely die which is not acceptable for me.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Eji1700 on June 17, 2020, 02:37:03 PM
People tend to often forget downsides when something seems very strong to them. Like people see a 4 Tach lance Paragon (which isn't even that great always) and immediately call it broken despite its flaws. There are very few truly broken ships in the game. This is why I have lots of ships in A tier. With the right build, most of the ships can be really really useful in battles, but that doesn't mean they're perfect.
Everyone has different definitions of broken which often muddles things.

For all intents and purposes a paragon basically ends the game currently.  If you get one it's trivial to load it up with an even half decent loadout and steamroll almost all the remaining content.  Is that "broken?"...i dunno...probably not.  There's obviously supposed to be an average player path through the game, and it ends with something like a paragon taking down stations and fleets.  Does it have flaws?  Sure...but the amount they actually matter in vanilla is pretty minor given that nothing in the base game actually exploits them.

That said, is it too good?  I think so, but i'm also highly in favor of stretching out the early and middle game as they have some really interesting choices that don't get emphasized because of how easy it is to skip them, especially once you know what you're doing.  I also have to fight the urge to just mass produce them the moment I get a colony that can because...well why not?  Same issue with other ships that appear to be above curve (drover being an obvious outlier because it's clearly not supposed to be that game warping).

 
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Igncom1 on June 17, 2020, 02:38:06 PM
FooF, I'd call Omen S tier for late game (ant tournaments...) because its arguably equal to the tempest in value (just a very different role), but is only 5 DP instead of 8. In an endgame battle where the player is DP limited that matters a surprising amount. It can pretty easily have 10k shield hitpoints in a 360 bubble, making it significantly tankier than a Tempest as long as it doesn't get hit with shield piercing weapons, and as you said murders fighters and can disable bigger ships. Best bang for buck anti-fighter in the game, has improved sensors, ECM built it, and is cheap. And in late game fights I don't really need Tempests - they don't have long enough PPT and are liable to get popped, plus cost the same DP as a Shrike which is more reliable - but I do need anti-fighter/lockdown escort frigates.

In parts of the game where the Tempest still shines, I'd call it significantly better than an Omen - in those stages I'd put omen at A.

I just wish they could last a little longer in combat before being murdered by the lack of combat readiness.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Maeleth on June 17, 2020, 03:56:35 PM
I just wish they could last a little longer in combat before being murdered by the lack of combat readiness.

Hardened Subsystems plus an officer with CE3 gives you 315 sec of top performance. And a few extra minutes, until initial 100% CR ticks down below 20%. This is usually enough to secure a victory and hit "retreat" on smaller ships or lose said ships because you're overwhelmed by endless waves of enemies.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 17, 2020, 04:07:52 PM
Are people really putting officers on Omens in late game? Maybe this is a battle size thing, but all my officers are on cruisers or larger.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Maeleth on June 17, 2020, 04:21:53 PM
Are people really putting officers on Omens in late game?
Frigates tend to pop out of existence without one. Even Omen, at least in modded game. It's not like you can deploy 10 capitals/cruisers simultaneously, might as well make those little bathtubs as effective as possible.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 17, 2020, 04:27:52 PM
On battle size 500, you can definitely deploy 10 cruisers. Even if I only deploy 6-8 officers in big ships, I want my other 2-4 in cruisers in case I need to reinforce or fight a round 2. Maybe if I could move officers around mid-battle/in deployment, I might consider putting officers on smaller ships and then moving them to other ships for the 2nd wave, but with the current system, I stop putting officers in anything smaller than a cruiser by late-mid game. Maybe a few in destroyers if I am running a light fleet, but certainly not in multiple frigates.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: TaLaR on June 17, 2020, 04:30:19 PM
Frigates tend to pop out of existence without one. Even Omen, at least in modded game. It's not like you can deploy 10 capitals/cruisers simultaneously, might as well make those little bathtubs as effective as possible.

At battlesize 500 you have 200-300 DP to use. For 10 officers + player deployment even for minimum 200 DP, average ship is at least a cruiser. It's not like having exactly 200 is that optimal either - reserves are nice to have when you need to grind down multiple expeditions/etc.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Maeleth on June 17, 2020, 04:54:33 PM
At battlesize 500 you have 200-300 DP to use. For 10 officers + player deployment even for minimum 200 DP, average ship is at least a cruiser. It's not like having exactly 200 is that optimal either - reserves are nice to have when you need to grind down multiple expeditions/etc.
I prefer 400 and small-ish fleets, which usually means being heavily outnumbered. My usual setup is AI Paragon, hyperagressive Onslaught with all de dakka, plus some carriers/missile boats and a bit of pocket change aka frigs. So yeah, in my case 10 officers is almost overkill  ;D
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Daynen on June 17, 2020, 05:48:16 PM
Atlas mkII is F tier?  Someone has never experienced the glory of two ammo fed mjolnirs with two locusts backing them up... ;D
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 18, 2020, 12:50:39 AM
Everyone has different definitions of broken which often muddles things.

For all intents and purposes a paragon basically ends the game currently.  If you get one it's trivial to load it up with an even half decent loadout and steamroll almost all the remaining content.  Is that "broken?"...i dunno...probably not.  There's obviously supposed to be an average player path through the game, and it ends with something like a paragon taking down stations and fleets.  Does it have flaws?  Sure...but the amount they actually matter in vanilla is pretty minor given that nothing in the base game actually exploits them.

That said, is it too good?  I think so, but i'm also highly in favor of stretching out the early and middle game as they have some really interesting choices that don't get emphasized because of how easy it is to skip them, especially once you know what you're doing.  I also have to fight the urge to just mass produce them the moment I get a colony that can because...well why not?  Same issue with other ships that appear to be above curve (drover being an obvious outlier because it's clearly not supposed to be that game warping).
So wait you're telling me the most expensive ship in the game is better than everything else the player can get? Why that's preposterous!! It's 60 goddamn DP, basically a battleship and a half if you look at other examples. If hypothetically speaking, we had a capital that's maybe 70 DP or even more, would you call that thing broken because it's stronger than other ships? Hopefully this Paragon circlejerk will stop once we'll be able to get Radiants in our fleets.

@Daynen
It was hard putting both Mk II capitals on my list because they're both good for their DP but the campaign stats absolutely kill them and make them unwanted. Atlas Mk II just dies to a sneeze while being awfully slow so that's another reason why some people put it so low. It's like a glass cannon but one that has been tied to a tree like a pinata.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: TaLaR on June 18, 2020, 07:50:58 AM
Hopefully this Paragon circlejerk will stop once we'll be able to get Radiants in our fleets.

If I remember right, it would only be a single not-player-pilotable Radiant with low max CR at best. If Radiant also gets a DP nerf (40 is ridiculously cheap for a ship arguably stronger than Paragon), it may end up mostly useless to player.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Megas on June 18, 2020, 09:28:13 AM
Hopefully this Paragon circlejerk will stop once we'll be able to get Radiants in our fleets.

If I remember right, it would only be a single not-player-pilotable Radiant with low max CR at best. If Radiant also gets a DP nerf (40 is ridiculously cheap for a ship arguably stronger than Paragon), it may end up mostly useless to player.
I remember something like that too.

Plus, it requires a tech 5 Automated Ships skill, and the other tech 5 skill raises the max permamod limit from two to three.  I wonder if the permamod (or bring Radiant) skill is one of the few that cannot be re-specced.  Assuming I want to raise tech to 5 to being with.

Also, I wonder if putting cores into human ships requires that skill to use.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 18, 2020, 09:42:36 AM
Yeah I know all of that, I was simply pointing out that once the new update comes, people will whine about other things. You'll be seeing posts like ''Once you get Tech 5 and find a Radiant, the game becomes too easy, you just win.'' And as long as the reduced CR doesn't go in the malfunction side, it's still gonna be scary, even when AI piloted.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: FooF on June 18, 2020, 12:56:59 PM
The Radiant is great battleship, not doubt, but it has a different niche than the Paragon. It's more of a high-tech Onslaught that is all about frontal firepower with some mobility. I wouldn't use it to spearhead an assault on a Station or other hard target. What it does have in droves over the Paragon is a more reasonable logistical profile. 40 DP is great for a ship of that caliber (assuming that doesn't change).

Even if you can't directly control it, the Radiant is S-tier for its insane firepower and absurd flux stats but it definitely has some exploitable weaknesses. I wouldn't call it an end-all-be-all ship. The Paragon's only real weakness is its speed and insane deploy cost.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 18, 2020, 12:59:25 PM
The Paragon's only real weakness is its speed and insane deploy cost.
And that's why it's not S tier, unlike some other problematic ships.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: SCC on June 18, 2020, 01:42:55 PM
Paragon is the only ship capable of destroying all the stations in the game in player hands. Though it's probably less efficient than using phase ships for the jobs, but since I don't use them, I don't know for sure.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Megas on June 18, 2020, 03:58:58 PM
Radiant is overpowered at 40 DP.  If I get Automated Ships, it would be solely to put Radiant in my fleet.  Otherwise, I rather have three permamods instead of two from the other tech 5 skill.  (I might still even take three permamods over Radiant - never enough OP.)
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Eji1700 on June 18, 2020, 06:42:55 PM
Everyone has different definitions of broken which often muddles things.

For all intents and purposes a paragon basically ends the game currently.  If you get one it's trivial to load it up with an even half decent loadout and steamroll almost all the remaining content.  Is that "broken?"...i dunno...probably not.  There's obviously supposed to be an average player path through the game, and it ends with something like a paragon taking down stations and fleets.  Does it have flaws?  Sure...but the amount they actually matter in vanilla is pretty minor given that nothing in the base game actually exploits them.

That said, is it too good?  I think so, but i'm also highly in favor of stretching out the early and middle game as they have some really interesting choices that don't get emphasized because of how easy it is to skip them, especially once you know what you're doing.  I also have to fight the urge to just mass produce them the moment I get a colony that can because...well why not?  Same issue with other ships that appear to be above curve (drover being an obvious outlier because it's clearly not supposed to be that game warping).
So wait you're telling me the most expensive ship in the game is better than everything else the player can get? Why that's preposterous!! It's 60 goddamn DP, basically a battleship and a half if you look at other examples. If hypothetically speaking, we had a capital that's maybe 70 DP or even more, would you call that thing broken because it's stronger than other ships? Hopefully this Paragon circlejerk will stop once we'll be able to get Radiants in our fleets.

@Daynen
It was hard putting both Mk II capitals on my list because they're both good for their DP but the campaign stats absolutely kill them and make them unwanted. Atlas Mk II just dies to a sneeze while being awfully slow so that's another reason why some people put it so low. It's like a glass cannon but one that has been tied to a tree like a pinata.
If money were actually a real limitation the fact that it's the most expensive ship might matter, but I can't even remember the last time I bought a paragon from a shipyard, and if you're capable of building one at a colony you're capable of affording it. 

If you want to i'd guess that you can have a kitted out paragon in a couple of hours of gameplay max, with a lot of that just being travel time.

DP is a much more significant limitation and part of why i don't think it's broken, and had you bothered actually reading what I wrote it's why I think it would be better to find ways to stretch out the early and mid game, so other ships get a chance to shine, rather than nerf the paragon in any way shape or form.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Megas on June 18, 2020, 07:00:22 PM
I understood "most expensive ship" as in DP cost, not credits.  60 DP is a lot compared to most capitals' 40 DP.  AI Paragon seems to be worth about a capital and a cruiser, maybe.  Player might be able to do evil things with it.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: FooF on June 19, 2020, 08:25:15 AM
To put it into perspective, under reasonable odds (i.e. not absurdly overextending yourself), I can't recall ever losing a Paragon in major fleet actions. Granted, it was officer'd (probably level 20) and had a custom loadout but the AI does extremely well with it. Post-battle analysis usually has an AI-piloted Paragon near the top of the kill/damage list. I have lost other Capitals, though, in large battles and against Stations. 60 DP is expensive but, at least in my experience, I know I won't lose it. Even against huge Ordos, I don't worry about the Paragon.

Non-Paragon chat:

What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?

Apogee is probably #1 for me. Never mind being able to acquire it at quick-start, it is generally useful throughout the entire game in combat and for its logistic bonuses.

#2 is the Tempest. Crushes other Frigates early, excellent harasser in mid-game and superb anti-fighter late-game (though I do have to retreat it at a low CR). Even without officers, they do well.

#3 is a tie between Hammerhead and Sunder. Both are able to punch at Cruiser levels for brief moments and they typically can stay out of harms way, or at least defend themselves against heavier opponents. Super late-game they lose their luster but they are always welcome fire support options. They're also great for auto-resolve or pursuit situations.

Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Igncom1 on June 19, 2020, 08:35:18 AM
Non-Paragon chat:

What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?

Apogee is probably #1 for me. Never mind being able to acquire it at quick-start, it is generally useful throughout the entire game in combat and for its logistic bonuses.

#2 is the Tempest. Crushes other Frigates early, excellent harasser in mid-game and superb anti-fighter late-game (though I do have to retreat it at a low CR). Even without officers, they do well.

#3 is a tie between Hammerhead and Sunder. Both are able to punch at Cruiser levels for brief moments and they typically can stay out of harms way, or at least defend themselves against heavier opponents. Super late-game they lose their luster but they are always welcome fire support options. They're also great for auto-resolve or pursuit situations.


The sunder. Early on it packs a heavy punch with a fairly wide range of loadouts that'll do great VS pirates. (I don't often stray on my builds, but they can do a lot of work with three medium energy weapons, or beams, or even insane SO loadouts and I don't even use the small ballistics for railguns!)

Late game it still can pack decent fire-power while also being cheap like most destroyers to repair/replace.

As this game favours ships with forward fire-power over anything with a broadside, sunders are perhaps the quintessential gunboat. If an overly specialized one.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 19, 2020, 08:39:21 AM
What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?
Well aside from Drover being the obvious choice, Heron is pretty damn useful whatever you'll end up doing. I agree with Sunder but I also want to add the Eagles, those things are so damn reliable in AI hands, only dying when you majorly screw something up.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Megas on June 19, 2020, 09:05:55 AM
Re: Paragon
I lose them sometimes in tough Ordos fights.  They last longer than Onslaught or Conquest, but can be overwhelmed and killed.  Radiants are evil.  Against human factions, their fleets are weak enough that it does not matter much.  Just about any proper battleship in numbers will steamroll them.  (Onslaught spam, used as two-in-one marine transport and battleship, can rollover fights in core systems without incident.)  The only human fight that can be a bit hard is high-tech star fortress because of mine spam drawing first blood before my ships get in range to shoot back.

Quote
What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?
Apogee.  I can start with one, and I keep one all the way to the final endgame fleet.
Colossus 3.  I raid a lot, and I often deploy it in auto-resolved pursuits, where it is risk-free.
Shepherd.  Useful in the first few fights, then I keep it for campaign bonuses and/or auto-resolve pursuits.

Just about every other ship I acquire early is whatever pirates drop, and they get phased out during midgame as expeditions and/or bounties drop bigger and better ships.  Then, once my colonies can defend themselves and I have a nanoforge, I start stealing more blueprints and building more ships.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Thaago on June 19, 2020, 11:02:54 AM
...
Non-Paragon chat:

What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?

...

This is completely by accident, and not what I wanted to happen, it just happened: The Centurion.

Yes, the little dinky frigate thats not anywhere near anyone's top of the tier list has stayed with me from the very start of a campaign all the way through multi ordo fights. I bought it for being cheap tough gun frigates to help me in early game and then it just refused. To. Die. I've used Omens and Tempests in the same fleet, and while they have that sweet system/offense they both have a tendency to... pop. Meanwhile I watched my Centurion about to get hit by a reaper with shields down and high flux, began to say F in my head, and then was shocked when it slapped on its system and tanked the hit. (Granted it was damaged enough that I retreated it, but still!)

I don't feel any need to really bump against the 30 ship limit in order to kill everything, so this little frigate just hangs out in my fleet. I deploy it whenever there is room (its only 4 DP) and it putters around as an escort/killing fighters/distracting the enemy. I've got a kinetic, an HE, an ion cannon on it, and a reaper, so it is a pretty reasonable little combatant that can help against larger enemies by disabling, shoots down fighters and missiles pretty well when they come nearby, and I cheer every time it sinks its reaper into a cruiser or battlecruiser. It basically became the fleet mascot.

So... while I still wouldn't put the Centurion at the top of the tier list, I have a great fondness for them and consider them useful at every stage.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Eji1700 on June 19, 2020, 11:58:13 AM
...
Non-Paragon chat:

What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?

...

This is completely by accident, and not what I wanted to happen, it just happened: The Centurion.

Yes, the little dinky frigate thats not anywhere near anyone's top of the tier list has stayed with me from the very start of a campaign all the way through multi ordo fights. I bought it for being cheap tough gun frigates to help me in early game and then it just refused. To. Die. I've used Omens and Tempests in the same fleet, and while they have that sweet system/offense they both have a tendency to... pop. Meanwhile I watched my Centurion about to get hit by a reaper with shields down and high flux, began to say F in my head, and then was shocked when it slapped on its system and tanked the hit. (Granted it was damaged enough that I retreated it, but still!)

I don't feel any need to really bump against the 30 ship limit in order to kill everything, so this little frigate just hangs out in my fleet. I deploy it whenever there is room (its only 4 DP) and it putters around as an escort/killing fighters/distracting the enemy. I've got a kinetic, an HE, an ion cannon on it, and a reaper, so it is a pretty reasonable little combatant that can help against larger enemies by disabling, shoots down fighters and missiles pretty well when they come nearby, and I cheer every time it sinks its reaper into a cruiser or battlecruiser. It basically became the fleet mascot.

So... while I still wouldn't put the Centurion at the top of the tier list, I have a great fondness for them and consider them useful at every stage.

Any ship with a damper filed is amazing in AI hands, and almost always worth having in your fleet.  The AI gets crazy level usage out of the damper field and is one of the few shining points of sticking to low tech.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: FooF on June 19, 2020, 12:26:23 PM
Centurion really is a good ship that kind of gets lost in the shuffle. It's no Monitor but for a frigate it is very tough. It's not particularly fast but fast enough to outrun what is strong enough to kill it but tough enough to outlast faster ships. I use them from time to time, and like Thaago, find it interesting how well they take care of themselves.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on June 19, 2020, 01:49:05 PM
Yes, the little dinky frigate thats not anywhere near anyone's top of the tier list has stayed with me from the very start of a campaign all the way through multi ordo fights.
*looks at my tier list* > literally the first ship in A tier. I'm a no one :'(
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Thaago on June 19, 2020, 09:12:42 PM
I think it means that you must just be lonely in your genius. :p
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: SCC on June 19, 2020, 11:19:48 PM
It's the first ship listed in my "good, but not broken" category as well. It's not underappreciated, merely boring and practical. It does what you require of it and does it well.
What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?
Besides ships with logistic advantages (Apogee, Shepherd, freighters, tankers), it would either be Hammerhead or Conquest. Hammerhead is easy to acquire early on and will last for some time. Conquest is harder to get, but it will serve me until the very end of the game.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Megas on June 20, 2020, 06:14:37 AM
Centurion is good if I get one early enough (I guess, Hammerhead start).  Problem is that basic fighting frigates (Lasher, Centurion, Wolf, and the like) are obsolete past the first two systems (Galatia and Corvus) due to low PPT, and the smallest ship I use from that point on are destroyers, once I get enough Enforcers, Mules, and Shrikes from pirates.  Warfarer is sad, always the first to die in Apogee starts, and useless at fighting from the very start.  Wayfarer was decent during 0.7.2, but now it does not have what it takes to fight in modern releases.

Hammerhead is good, but becomes obsolete eventually.  The only loadout that is overpowered is the Safety Override one, and that has low PPT.  The non-SO loadouts are nothing remarkable and are not strong enough to cut it late in the game.

I like Conquest, but it is not something I get early.  The earliest I get it is looting one from an expedition fleet and/or named bounty during the midgame.  Later, I eventually build a pristine one.  Conquest blueprint is the easiest capital blueprint to steal (thanks New Maxios), but it may be a while before I get a forge and Heavy Industry.  Conquest is part of my endgame fleet.  It is handy for times when 60 DP (Paragon) costs too much but Conquest can get the job done.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: FooF on June 20, 2020, 08:48:22 AM
One of my favorite Hammerhead loadouts late-game (that doesn't require an officer to be effective), is Dual Heavy Mortar, Dual Light Needlers, Dual Vulcans in the back, Two Reapers and then Converted Hangars with Thunders. Throw ITU and Resistant Flux Conduits on there (rest are Vents) and it can really take care of itself. Alternatively, do the same weapon loadout but drop the fighters and add Hardened Subsystems and Reinforced Bulkheads to give it more longevity.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Daynen on June 22, 2020, 05:47:50 PM
What ship do you think has the most longevity in your fleet? As in, if you picked it up early game, you might still reasonably use it late game?

I gotta go with the Sunder on this one too.  A HIL+2 grav beam layout with range makes them hard to pin down and a constant threat to anything that DARES to flicker its shields.  Packs of them look like bigger Wolf frigates and they play the part.  The AI can't possibly screw up the ship system since it recharges.  They're simple and focused and rewarding to fly yourself, especially if you get a good flank.  Ludd help the poor enemy ship who overloads because no one is safe from ITU+optics.  There's a visceral satisfaction in watching the smooth and continuous erasure of that hull bar set to the sound of a non-stop explosion...
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: OmegaMan on July 11, 2020, 10:44:35 PM
What hulls are the first two?   

Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Mondaymonkey on July 11, 2020, 11:11:22 PM
In OP?

That would be a Tempest and an Omen. Both are high-tech rare frigates. They are really good at their roles.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: SCC on July 12, 2020, 01:08:26 AM
They aren't rare. Any given independent, League or Tri-Tachyon colony is likely to have one of them, or both, or multiple of both...
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Mondaymonkey on July 12, 2020, 01:27:21 AM
Relatively rare. Other frigates, like wolf or lasher, far more common.

However, it is true that it is possible to find them almost everywhere.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Burvjradzite on July 12, 2020, 03:31:40 AM
I just finished my second playthrough with nexerelin and other vanilla-friendly mods.
And I realized that once you get Astral, you just can't play without it. You will even repair d-modded one just to get it shape.
I think, if it even superior with mods, without them it just unstoppable.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: wei270 on July 25, 2020, 02:34:41 AM
if the ranking is base on ai ship then it is ok............................

but the biggest problem for me is well first hammer head vs sunder, i dont think they should be 2 tier apart and very close being on the same tier, when ranking hammer head you should give them some point for being highly replaceable while a good sunder is harder to replace, that being tritecyon lance is harder to come by.

doom should be A tier even when plot by AI, if you give them the right officer they are definlty S tier.
Scab should be much higher, these things are scary.
while it is ok that you rate conquer and pirate capital rank F but the other capital fire power deserve to be higher, i see that you rely on fighter and bomber as your main dps but they may not work in a heavy anit fighter comp. while fire power from paragon and less so dominator and onslaught is very consistant.
 also onslaught can actually just act as hull tanking where he is tanking with hull if you build armor and hull with it. that should put it higher on the tier list. hull tanking can work now because hull retain 5% armor value, and all the large value damage weapons are right damage type for hull damage. combine that with the officer skill of 25% hull damage reduction and or hegemony mod make some interesting tactics.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Zeeheld on July 25, 2020, 05:08:12 PM
This thread is a remarkable example of a clear shitpost leading to interesting, if not very fruitful discussion.
On the one hand, it is enlightening to see people defend exotic ships such as the Centurion which I've never even given a second glance. On the other hand, most of the discussion seems to be doomed to be fruitless because tier-lists are inherently useless beyond gauging what is readily apparent.

Obviously, Tempests, Omens and Falcon (P)s are bound to end up in S-tier as they are proven (by Cums, Thaago and Vayra, respectively), to just wreck face when employed correctly. Or the Astral, which is such a no-brainer to get it's actually a challenge in itself to go without it.
And of course everybody hates the Buffalo Mk. II as it is just a hunk of junk.

Most ships, apart from the most obvious ones, can, however be suprisingly effective or disappointing. Sometimes both things at once. Case in point: the Aurora.
I have had my heart broken by it several times when going against [REDACTED] fleets and noticing, much to my suprise, that my reliable flanking ship just got deleted too fast for me to even register the comms chatter to do anything about it.
Similarly, the Odyssey which can at times roll up an entire flank by itself, but boy, if it gets caught by a tanky capital, it's not gonna be pretty.
Other ships might not suprise you, such as the Wolf. It's a frigate, alright. It'll probably die. That's what you expect.
It comes down to personal preference, most of the time and finding a juicy combination of ships to make them really shine.
I, for one, don't like to use frigates that much in encounter battles much because they are just too squishy and their ppt is too short.
But give me some SO Hounds for chowing down on the fleeing remnants of the fleet I just defeated any day of the week.
Destroyers as a whole don't really cut it for me in the later game, as they cannot slug it out effectively enough when compared to cruisers.
But that is just my preference.
And that's the richness of this game, that you can make basically anything work, at least for a time and under the right circumstances, like the Venture.

All of this discussion is kind of spoiled for me, however, as there are so many great and vanilla-friendly mods that I cannot even remember when I went full vanilla the last time.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Null Ganymede on July 27, 2020, 09:44:11 AM
MRM-heavy Buffalo MkII fleets delete pirates while simultaneously attracting them with high sig and low DP cost.

If you're grinding system bounties for early credits and faction standing, they're amazing value when massed. Highly recommend trying them out. Just make sure to trigger all missiles on a tactical laser or other "rangefinder" weapon.

Edit: they're also Destroyers, so once you have a bunch of hullmods and the +10% OP skill you can field fighter screens.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Locklave on July 27, 2020, 10:22:39 AM
MRM-heavy Buffalo MkII fleets delete pirates while simultaneously attracting them with high sig and low DP cost.

If you're grinding system bounties for early credits and faction standing, they're amazing value when massed. Highly recommend trying them out. Just make sure to trigger all missiles on a tactical laser or other "rangefinder" weapon.

Edit: they're also Destroyers, so once you have a bunch of hullmods and the +10% OP skill you can field fighter screens.

They aren't common enough to have on mass and if you can produce them then you have better/less fragile options.

It's a meme ship at this point, I don't know why people try to pretend its more. The weapons on a Buffalo Mk II are more expensive then the ship.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Thaago on July 27, 2020, 10:39:21 AM
I'm using a pair of BMIIs in my current "bad ships" playthrough, and they pull their weight shockingly well. Forward shields, talons, and harpoons. There's no reason to mass them to be honest, they just provide a lot of firepower for their DP cost... all in a highly combustible package that has more required crew than actual crew capacity. Sure they will probably catch a stray round and explode at some point, but in the meantime they carry a boatload of missiles.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Locklave on July 28, 2020, 06:42:41 PM
It is a good fodder ship, like Hounds/Cerberus with SO which I'd prefer. I wouldn't turn one down if I was hurting for fleet power.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Vocation on August 02, 2020, 10:08:35 PM
The best fleets are carrier fleets. Just spam fighters and bombers that have 5000 range and are undodgeable. They will shred any fleets without full radius shields. The AI also freaks out and tries to attack fighters if they do not have fighter superiority which means you'll win most engagements if you can secure the void space. Then you slam on long range missiles on your carriers with missile racks and delete whole fleets.

Fighter spam is the easiest thing to farm AI cores - they can't teleport away from long range fighter swarms to vent. Its the same for attacking bases. You just park outside the range of stations and send in fighter squadrons to delete it.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Burvjradzite on August 03, 2020, 07:35:17 AM
The best fleets are carrier fleets. Just spam fighters and bombers that have 5000 range and are undodgeable. They will shred any fleets without full radius shields. The AI also freaks out and tries to attack fighters if they do not have fighter superiority which means you'll win most engagements if you can secure the void space. Then you slam on long range missiles on your carriers with missile racks and delete whole fleets.

Fighter spam is the easiest thing to farm AI cores - they can't teleport away from long range fighter swarms to vent. Its the same for attacking bases. You just park outside the range of stations and send in fighter squadrons to delete it.
True, but i'm also using a single protective ship in front of my carriers to scare foes
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: shrek_luigi on August 03, 2020, 01:47:36 PM
i saw centurion listed as D-tier & immediately had an anxiety-attack  :'(
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Flet on August 04, 2020, 08:57:58 PM
low tech ships are automatically better because there are no mid or high tech tankers. Therefore if you want a mono-colored engine trail fleet you must use only low tech ships.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: DubTre6 on August 07, 2020, 09:35:04 PM
low tech ships are automatically better because there are no mid or high tech tankers. Therefore if you want a mono-colored engine trail fleet you must use only low tech ships.

This is what mods are for  8)
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: rhinoabc on August 10, 2020, 10:27:28 AM
The hound should be higher. Put reinforced bulkheads, maybe blast-doors, and it's survivability rises. With a hypervelocity driver tacked on it makes for a good, cheap arty piece.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: DubTre6 on August 10, 2020, 12:23:13 PM
The hound should be higher. Put reinforced bulkheads, maybe blast-doors, and it's survivability rises. With a hypervelocity driver tacked on it makes for a good, cheap arty piece.

I second this.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Volfgarix on September 01, 2020, 08:25:53 AM
Why Lasher is so low? It's OP thanks to low cost, Feeder and many weapons mounts. SO playership it's brutal.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Grievous69 on September 01, 2020, 08:37:33 AM
Why Lasher is so low? It's OP thanks to low cost, Feeder and many weapons mounts. SO playership it's brutal.
The whole list is so cursed that most people missed Lasher being in E tier.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: shrek_luigi on September 01, 2020, 09:56:40 AM
why do people like Bowling Ball Ship so much; flux shunt is cool but I never thought of the monitor as an S-tier ship
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: TaLaR on September 01, 2020, 10:30:57 AM
why do people like Bowling Ball Ship so much; flux shunt is cool but I never thought of the monitor as an S-tier ship

It was fun when it could defeat enemies by shield bumping.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Havoc on September 03, 2020, 02:41:39 AM
can AI also use monitor shieldsponge like that?
with and without officers
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Aethelric on September 03, 2020, 07:28:46 PM
Can we talk more about the Conquest being F tier? It's probably my favorite ship: obviously can't beat a Paragon 1v1, but I'd take it versus an Onslaught or a Mora due to its maneuverability. Battlecruisers rule: it's got DPS that punches super high while maintaining the maneuverability to keep you safe.

I also just think the asymmetrical design makes it one of the most fun ships to play as. You can basically slice yourself a free flank off a loose enemy formation by just using your flak side to keep yourself safe from missiles and pop any low DP ships while keeping your actual target on the heavy gun side.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Thaago on September 03, 2020, 10:12:51 PM
Some builds can take on a Paragon, though its a slow process. I've become quite taken with 2x Gauss on them recently, it has the flux to run them and its a lot of high accuracy kinetic damage.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: TaLaR on September 04, 2020, 02:45:28 AM
Can we talk more about the Conquest being F tier? It's probably my favorite ship: obviously can't beat a Paragon 1v1

Not only can Conquest beat a Paragon 1v1, it does so on autopilot with the right build. 2xGauss, 2x Squall (separate groups for staggered fire), 2x Harpoon, max out hullmods and flux.

...But in a fleet setting AI Conquest is guaranteed to waste Squalls on unimportant targets or fail to pursue Paragon on high flux. So being able to defeat Paragon on autopilot applies only to duel scenario.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Mondaymonkey on September 04, 2020, 08:44:46 AM
And if we mention Paragon, why would it be in tier D?

Lets be honest, it's not tier S, but D is unfair obviously.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: FooF on September 04, 2020, 09:18:39 AM
The Conquest is not F-tier by any stretch. I think it gets a bad rap because people expect it to be something it's not. It's an opportunist, not a slugger, and its not not supposed to be trading shots with capitals but rather with cruisers. It's a cruiser-killer. It outmaneuvers the Dominator, outguns the Eagle/Aurora, and can lay waste to Destroyers. Its shield is a tell-tale sign that it's not supposed to take a lot of hits: not only is it in a limited arc but it has poor efficiency.

A well-built Conquest is like most of the Midline fleet: a really good generalist that gets out-shined by the specialists in their respective niches. I like flying Conquests as a flagship because I don't feel like I lose a lot speed going up from a Cruiser but boy do I gain a lot of firepower. I don't expect it to take on well-built Paragons, Onslaughts or Stations by itself but I know I can take out about anything else.

If it specializes in anything, its sustained firepower. With its superb dissipation and capacity, along with the efficiency of Ballistics, it wins almost all flux wars if armed correctly. I don't think its maximum focused firepower is top-tier but it can sustain it, which is important in its own right.

Odyssey is in about the same boat but it trades some firepower for extra burst speed relative to the Conquest. It can also absorb more damage because its shield efficiency is stellar.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Mondaymonkey on September 04, 2020, 09:45:11 AM
Spoiler
The Conquest is not F-tier by any stretch. I think it gets a bad rap because people expect it to be something it's not. It's an opportunist, not a slugger, and its not not supposed to be trading shots with capitals but rather with cruisers. It's a cruiser-killer. It outmaneuvers the Dominator, outguns the Eagle/Aurora, and can lay waste to Destroyers. Its shield is a tell-tale sign that it's not supposed to take a lot of hits: not only is it in a limited arc but it has poor efficiency.

A well-built Conquest is like most of the Midline fleet: a really good generalist that gets out-shined by the specialists in their respective niches. I like flying Conquests as a flagship because I don't feel like I lose a lot speed going up from a Cruiser but boy do I gain a lot of firepower. I don't expect it to take on well-built Paragons, Onslaughts or Stations by itself but I know I can take out about anything else.

If it specializes in anything, its sustained firepower. With its superb dissipation and capacity, along with the efficiency of Ballistics, it wins almost all flux wars if armed correctly. I don't think its maximum focused firepower is top-tier but it can sustain it, which is important in its own right.

Odyssey is in about the same boat but it trades some firepower for extra burst speed relative to the Conquest. It can also absorb more damage because its shield efficiency is stellar.
[close]

If you were a salesperson, you couldn't sell it! ©

Mister, that was the worst advertisement of Conquest, I ever hear. It's wonderful machine, capable of doing almost anything, including those things you mention it can't. Yeah, it can not do a lot of things alone, but Conquest is a great team player! Being fast and mighty it able to support allies and receive support from them effectively. Pair of Onslaughts will definitely interfere with each other, pair of Paragons are too slow to maneuver properly, but a pair of Conquests could be fearsome! Also, they work as a good companion to carriers, especially if carrier i fast enough.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: intrinsic_parity on September 04, 2020, 10:40:14 AM
Odyssey has 1x shield efficiency btw. Its much better than conquest at 1.4, but not really amazing in comparison to ships like paragon (.6).
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: DubTre6 on September 04, 2020, 11:08:21 AM
Odyssey has 1x shield efficiency btw. Its much better than conquest at 1.4, but not really amazing in comparison to ships like paragon (.6).

IMO its hard to compare the Paragon to any other vanilla ship, I mean, its just so friggin strong.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: intrinsic_parity on September 04, 2020, 05:49:09 PM
The paragon is uniquely powerful, but its shield efficiency is not. Most high tech ships (Paragon, astral, hyperion, omen, scarab, medusa) have .6 efficiency and the other have slightly worse (.7 for shrike and apogee, .8 for aurora, tempest, wolf). Most mid tech ships have .8 shield efficiency, and most low tech ships have 1 shield efficiency, so the odyssey is more in line with low tech shields than hight tech. The odyssey actually has less shield tanking capability than an onslaught (same efficiency with less capacity).
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Megas on September 04, 2020, 06:44:08 PM
Odyssey used to have 0.8 shield efficiency, but it was raised to 1 when it got Plasma Burn.  It really needs Hardened Shields.  Without them, its shields are too frail (since its flux stats are not so great).
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: Mondaymonkey on September 04, 2020, 07:41:21 PM
Most high tech ships (Paragon, astral, hyperion, omen, scarab, medusa) have .6 efficiency

BTW not all players are aware HOW strong that value can be. With DS skill, HS and 100% CR, 0.6 rating became ~0.32. If you are not friendly with math, I'll explain: 0.32 shield efficiency means that even if you attack it with 0.8 flux per damage kinetic weapon (needlers), shield would produce less flux, than weaponry of the attacker. So, those "lightning alpha strikes" are pointless if not really huge amount of flux-free sabots. The only effective way to fight that shield with no sabots - long continuous shelling, when attacker able to vent his soft flux over time, while target unable to vent it's hard flux. But that also mean attacker should have both better mobility and longer range, because, you know, target also would tend to shot attacker and usually have better vents than attacker.

And if it's not just any 0.32 shield, but player-controlled Paragon... Oh boy... It should be nerfed, probably.
Title: Re: My personal vanilla Starsector ships Tier-list
Post by: intrinsic_parity on September 04, 2020, 08:27:31 PM
If you are firing weapons under dissipation, you are actually building zero flux in your own ship, so you can still overcome very good shield efficiency with good weapon management, but yes, .32 damage multiplier is very strong. Part of it is also that damage reduction skills in general are super strong and they can be used on any ship. High tech ships also do have bad weapons to compensate. I think the paragon costing 33-50% more DP than other capital ships mostly justifies its power.